There's this infinite series of actions you have to complete just to high five somebody. And this is true of all motion. It feels like all change, anything that you want to happen, you can decompose it into an infinite series of steps, which, certainly from a perspective making change in your life is very daunting thought that somehow any change is infinite in scope.

There's this infinite series of actions you have to complete just to high five somebody. And this is true of all motion. It feels like all change, anything that you want to happen, you can decompose it into an infinite series of steps, which, certainly from a perspective making change in your life is very daunting thought that somehow any change is infinite in scope.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth life. It This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth life. It This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Math has always been a challenge for me, so naturally, I figured why not have a math expert on the podcast? Really as a way to explore how we handle challenges in general. Today, I'm talking with Ben Orlan, who's a math teacher and author who makes problem solving feel surprisingly human. We'll explore why struggling is actually a good sign, how humor helps us push through tough moments, and even what a dog retrieving a ball can teach us about calculus. I've spent most of my life intimidated by complex math, but as I talked with Ben, I realize that how we approach math mirrors how we approach any challenge, whether it's breaking a habit, learning something new, or facing uncertainty. By the end of this episode, you might not just rethink math, you might rethink how you take on hard things. I'm Yeric's and this is the one you feed. Hi Ben, Welcome to the show.

Math has always been a challenge for me, so naturally, I figured why not have a math expert on the podcast? Really as a way to explore how we handle challenges in general. Today, I'm talking with Ben Orlan, who's a math teacher and author who makes problem solving feel surprisingly human. We'll explore why struggling is actually a good sign, how humor helps us push through tough moments, and even what a dog retrieving a ball can teach us about calculus. I've spent most of my life intimidated by complex math, but as I talked with Ben, I realize that how we approach math mirrors how we approach any challenge, whether it's breaking a habit, learning something new, or facing uncertainty. By the end of this episode, you might not just rethink math, you might rethink how you take on hard things. I'm Yeric's and this is the one you feed. Hi Ben, Welcome to the show.

Yeah, hi Erk, thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, hi Erk, thanks so much for having me.

I'm excited to have you on. You are a little bit of an odd guest for us. I don't mean that you're odd as a person, although perhaps you are. I think that's a good thing.

I'm excited to have you on. You are a little bit of an odd guest for us. I don't mean that you're odd as a person, although perhaps you are. I think that's a good thing.

But yeah, I get that at dinner parties want to show up. You're odd guest for us.

But yeah, I get that at dinner parties want to show up. You're odd guest for us.

Yeah, you're writing books about mathematics, which is a topic we have literally never covered except me trotting out some sort of cliched like happiness equations or something. But I was really taken by first the title of your book, and then as I look deeper into your work, some of the other titles and some of the ideas that you're playing with. And your new book is called Math for English Majors, a human take on the universal language. So I think there's a lot that we can cover that. Listeners, I think you're going to be surprised at how interesting this is, particularly if you don't like math or you're afraid of math. This is a great conversation. So we're going to start, however, like we always do with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, you're writing books about mathematics, which is a topic we have literally never covered except me trotting out some sort of cliched like happiness equations or something. But I was really taken by first the title of your book, and then as I look deeper into your work, some of the other titles and some of the ideas that you're playing with. And your new book is called Math for English Majors, a human take on the universal language. So I think there's a lot that we can cover that. Listeners, I think you're going to be surprised at how interesting this is, particularly if you don't like math or you're afraid of math. This is a great conversation. So we're going to start, however, like we always do with the parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, I think of the feeding as the what you do every day. I think sometimes I give into the temptation to want to imagine I have this self which is somehow separate from the way I spend my time. There's this me and I have this high opinion of myself. Maybe, but if you look at what I'm doing day by day and week by week, it's like, well, am I doing those things that I claim to value?

Yeah, I think of the feeding as the what you do every day. I think sometimes I give into the temptation to want to imagine I have this self which is somehow separate from the way I spend my time. There's this me and I have this high opinion of myself. Maybe, but if you look at what I'm doing day by day and week by week, it's like, well, am I doing those things that I claim to value?

And so as a teacher, I think about this.

And so as a teacher, I think about this.

As a teacher, you're sort of always on the clock in some sense, you know, when the students are in the classroom with you. Yeah, they're taking the lesson from whatever it is you're doing that day. They're not taking some lesson you've imagined in your head. And so to me, that's what the feeding is, as how are you spending every minute, every hour.

As a teacher, you're sort of always on the clock in some sense, you know, when the students are in the classroom with you. Yeah, they're taking the lesson from whatever it is you're doing that day. They're not taking some lesson you've imagined in your head. And so to me, that's what the feeding is, as how are you spending every minute, every hour.

I love that idea. There's a concept out there that I know has a name, but I don't know what the name is. It's a concept in the mental health world a little bit and it basically says that if you want to know what somebody values, look at what they do actually do, not what they say. I think that's a little reductive. I get it because I do think it's true that that does show at least what our operating values are at the time. But I also think that there are ways in which we can get better at bridging the gap between that idealized self that you talked about in your head and the actual self that shows up day to day. Because there's a lot of time in my life if you took who I was only measured by what I did, you'd be like, that guy is a piece of shit, right, Like that guy is a real asshole, because I mean I was a heroin addict. I mean I was not behaving well, and I like to think that wasn't all that was true in those moments.

I love that idea. There's a concept out there that I know has a name, but I don't know what the name is. It's a concept in the mental health world a little bit and it basically says that if you want to know what somebody values, look at what they do actually do, not what they say. I think that's a little reductive. I get it because I do think it's true that that does show at least what our operating values are at the time. But I also think that there are ways in which we can get better at bridging the gap between that idealized self that you talked about in your head and the actual self that shows up day to day. Because there's a lot of time in my life if you took who I was only measured by what I did, you'd be like, that guy is a piece of shit, right, Like that guy is a real asshole, because I mean I was a heroin addict. I mean I was not behaving well, and I like to think that wasn't all that was true in those moments.

No, I think that's fair.

No, I think that's fair.

Maybe that's why I think having the multiple wolves and the stories is an apt metaphor, because we're not these unified, coherent people. Yeah, you can't look at someone and say, ah, yes, this is the explanation for their behavior and who they are and what they do. It's like, we're not that tidy. We're not characters in a fable. We're something much more complex than that.

Maybe that's why I think having the multiple wolves and the stories is an apt metaphor, because we're not these unified, coherent people. Yeah, you can't look at someone and say, ah, yes, this is the explanation for their behavior and who they are and what they do. It's like, we're not that tidy. We're not characters in a fable. We're something much more complex than that.

So let's take that idea there that we're something much more complex than that, because we really are. And if there's one thing that I sort of push against in the space that I'm in is the idea of easy answers, the idea that like there's this one size fits all formula, or there's these five easy tricks or all of that. And I heard you say on a different show. I'm not going to get this exact, but you basically said that one of the things to be a good problem solver is, instead of trying to immediately solve the problem, is to relax a little bit into what the problem is and explore it a little bit more before you move on to solutions. Say a little bit more about that.

So let's take that idea there that we're something much more complex than that, because we really are. And if there's one thing that I sort of push against in the space that I'm in is the idea of easy answers, the idea that like there's this one size fits all formula, or there's these five easy tricks or all of that. And I heard you say on a different show. I'm not going to get this exact, but you basically said that one of the things to be a good problem solver is, instead of trying to immediately solve the problem, is to relax a little bit into what the problem is and explore it a little bit more before you move on to solutions. Say a little bit more about that.

Yeah, Yeah, I've talked about this with students and in my writing a little bit. I think if there's certainly these four stages of solving a problem, and mathematics is a really good place actually for learning these stages, because mathematics is a series of challenges of problems that you run into, and some of them are routine, you know, sort of exercises. It's like doing your weightlifting for the day, and you don't get stuck on those. You can just kind of move through them. But sometimes you run into a problem and you don't know what to do. The first thing you try it doesn't work, and then there's a temptation to just bounce off that problem and go do something else with your day. Especially in math, there's a lot of ways to spend a day other than doing mathematics. So I know this with my students, like there's other ways to spend their time. So when a student runs into a problem that they're stuck with, my first piece of advice is to stop trying to guess the answer or stop trying to solve it right away. I remember one time, this is a class of seventh grader as I was teaching, and it gave them a problem that I thought was going to take the whole lesson to solve, but they weren't accustomed to problems like that, so some of them just started shouting out guesses, right, is it twelve?

Yeah, Yeah, I've talked about this with students and in my writing a little bit. I think if there's certainly these four stages of solving a problem, and mathematics is a really good place actually for learning these stages, because mathematics is a series of challenges of problems that you run into, and some of them are routine, you know, sort of exercises. It's like doing your weightlifting for the day, and you don't get stuck on those. You can just kind of move through them. But sometimes you run into a problem and you don't know what to do. The first thing you try it doesn't work, and then there's a temptation to just bounce off that problem and go do something else with your day. Especially in math, there's a lot of ways to spend a day other than doing mathematics. So I know this with my students, like there's other ways to spend their time. So when a student runs into a problem that they're stuck with, my first piece of advice is to stop trying to guess the answer or stop trying to solve it right away. I remember one time, this is a class of seventh grader as I was teaching, and it gave them a problem that I thought was going to take the whole lesson to solve, but they weren't accustomed to problems like that, so some of them just started shouting out guesses, right, is it twelve?

Is it fourteen?

Is it fourteen?

And it was like, you're probably not going to guess the answer in the first thirty seconds. So my advice in those situations and beyond math too. Is two explore the problem, to make the goal for that next ten minutes, for that next half hour, not to solve the problem, but to figure out what would a solution look like. What are the obstacles here, what's the tension in this problem? Why isn't there an easy answer? What other things that people have tried maybe for this problem? You know, to view it as you're researching and playing with the problem rather than trying to solve it. This is something that research mathematicians, the people who are trying to solve new math problems, tend to be very very good at because those problems can take years to solve. I mean some of them can take centuries. They're sort of passed on generation to generation, and so you have to be patient. And sometimes progress on a problem doesn't look like a solution. It looks like an idea of what the solution would have to look like, or ruling out possible solutions.

And it was like, you're probably not going to guess the answer in the first thirty seconds. So my advice in those situations and beyond math too. Is two explore the problem, to make the goal for that next ten minutes, for that next half hour, not to solve the problem, but to figure out what would a solution look like. What are the obstacles here, what's the tension in this problem? Why isn't there an easy answer? What other things that people have tried maybe for this problem? You know, to view it as you're researching and playing with the problem rather than trying to solve it. This is something that research mathematicians, the people who are trying to solve new math problems, tend to be very very good at because those problems can take years to solve. I mean some of them can take centuries. They're sort of passed on generation to generation, and so you have to be patient. And sometimes progress on a problem doesn't look like a solution. It looks like an idea of what the solution would have to look like, or ruling out possible solutions.

I love that, and I do think that that really does apply to challenges in our life. Changes we want to make or problems that we're having. Is that if we can spend time really looking at the problem or the change that we want to make without immediately jumping to a conclusion of what we should do. It really helps. And you mentioned like there's contradictions and there's opposing tensions, and it's like, you know, let's say I suddenly am like, well, I want to begin reading for thirty minutes a day. I'm just making something out. If you don't spend some time to acknowledge like what's been blocking me from doing that, you know what other tensions are pulling on me in those moments like that sort of exploration can be really really valuable. We tend to jump right to action, and it's interesting I think a lot about like one of the most accepted models for behavior changes called the trans theoretical model of behavior change, most commonly known as the stages of change model, and there are three stages before you even ever get to action, and if you don't do some of the work in those stages, very often your action just isn't going to go anywhere. It's going to just peter out really quickly. And sounds a lot like what you're saying, which is like I'm just going to start shouting out answers hoping that this problem is solved in three minutes and I'm onto the next thing.

I love that, and I do think that that really does apply to challenges in our life. Changes we want to make or problems that we're having. Is that if we can spend time really looking at the problem or the change that we want to make without immediately jumping to a conclusion of what we should do. It really helps. And you mentioned like there's contradictions and there's opposing tensions, and it's like, you know, let's say I suddenly am like, well, I want to begin reading for thirty minutes a day. I'm just making something out. If you don't spend some time to acknowledge like what's been blocking me from doing that, you know what other tensions are pulling on me in those moments like that sort of exploration can be really really valuable. We tend to jump right to action, and it's interesting I think a lot about like one of the most accepted models for behavior changes called the trans theoretical model of behavior change, most commonly known as the stages of change model, and there are three stages before you even ever get to action, and if you don't do some of the work in those stages, very often your action just isn't going to go anywhere. It's going to just peter out really quickly. And sounds a lot like what you're saying, which is like I'm just going to start shouting out answers hoping that this problem is solved in three minutes and I'm onto the next thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like the preparation before the solution seems important. And I think another thing that I learned from mathematics is the hardest problems don't always look hard, and the easy problems don't always look easy. There's a very famous one. This is a problem that was first just kind of jotted down in the margins of a book four hundred years ago, and it was someone who was reading an old geometry book Skypierre, and he jotted it down and he's like, oh, I've got an idea for another equation here, but there's a certain kind of equation that I think doesn't have a solution, and he jotted it down in the margint He says, oh, and I can actually I know the solution to this. I could prove this to you, but I don't have quite enough space in this margin of the book. And then it just sort of sat there in the margin of his book for a few years. His son discovered it a few decades later and published it with his writings, and people started looking, what was this proof that he had come up with that he didn't quite have space for. And it took three to fifty years. He probably had it wrong, right, His proof was probably false. But the thing he was trying to prove that this kind of equation didn't have a solution. It's a very simple equation. I've showed it to eighth graders and it's true what he said. But it was one of the hardest problems anyone had ever uttered in mathematics up to that moment. You know, it wasn't solvable with the mathematics at the time. You needed three hundred and fifty more years of mathematical developments for that to be solvable. So it looks really simple, and you know sometimes in LEO, I want to read for thirty minutes a day. It sounds so simple. It's like I got books on the shelf, I've got thirty minutes in the calendar.

I like the preparation before the solution seems important. And I think another thing that I learned from mathematics is the hardest problems don't always look hard, and the easy problems don't always look easy. There's a very famous one. This is a problem that was first just kind of jotted down in the margins of a book four hundred years ago, and it was someone who was reading an old geometry book Skypierre, and he jotted it down and he's like, oh, I've got an idea for another equation here, but there's a certain kind of equation that I think doesn't have a solution, and he jotted it down in the margint He says, oh, and I can actually I know the solution to this. I could prove this to you, but I don't have quite enough space in this margin of the book. And then it just sort of sat there in the margin of his book for a few years. His son discovered it a few decades later and published it with his writings, and people started looking, what was this proof that he had come up with that he didn't quite have space for. And it took three to fifty years. He probably had it wrong, right, His proof was probably false. But the thing he was trying to prove that this kind of equation didn't have a solution. It's a very simple equation. I've showed it to eighth graders and it's true what he said. But it was one of the hardest problems anyone had ever uttered in mathematics up to that moment. You know, it wasn't solvable with the mathematics at the time. You needed three hundred and fifty more years of mathematical developments for that to be solvable. So it looks really simple, and you know sometimes in LEO, I want to read for thirty minutes a day. It sounds so simple. It's like I got books on the shelf, I've got thirty minutes in the calendar.

This seems very.

This seems very.

Easy, right, right, But maybe that's tapping into issues of attention and patience and anxious worries that keep you from focusing, like it can happen into so many.

Easy, right, right, But maybe that's tapping into issues of attention and patience and anxious worries that keep you from focusing, like it can happen into so many.

Difficult issues exactly. And so yeah, I.

Difficult issues exactly. And so yeah, I.

Find mathematics is a very crisp model of those things. Often because in math it seems like, of all places it should be easy to tell what's an easy problem. What's a hard problem? But things can be simple and very hard or complex and actually not so hard. You know a lot of surface complication, but if you just understand what the terms are, it's actually a straightforward problem.

Find mathematics is a very crisp model of those things. Often because in math it seems like, of all places it should be easy to tell what's an easy problem. What's a hard problem? But things can be simple and very hard or complex and actually not so hard. You know a lot of surface complication, but if you just understand what the terms are, it's actually a straightforward problem.

This is a question about problems like that, like how does someone know that they're proposing a mathematical problem or proof or quandary versus just writing down a bunch of nons? Like are there points where people are like, we're trying to prove something that should not be proved because it's not true or real, or like, I know this isn't a question that probably is like three podcast interviews, but I'm just curious because I often think about that.

This is a question about problems like that, like how does someone know that they're proposing a mathematical problem or proof or quandary versus just writing down a bunch of nons? Like are there points where people are like, we're trying to prove something that should not be proved because it's not true or real, or like, I know this isn't a question that probably is like three podcast interviews, but I'm just curious because I often think about that.

Yeah, that's a nothing more. I think it's interesting to hear what mathematicians say about this. I'm a math teacher, right, I don't do my own mathematical research, but knowing lots of people who do, often they'll run into a question where you're trying to decide, Okay, it's this statement true or false, And actually if you sit there wondering whether it's true or false, you never get anywhere. What they have to do is they have to commit to the thought. Okay, today, I'm going to try to prove it's true. I think it's true.

Yeah, that's a nothing more. I think it's interesting to hear what mathematicians say about this. I'm a math teacher, right, I don't do my own mathematical research, but knowing lots of people who do, often they'll run into a question where you're trying to decide, Okay, it's this statement true or false, And actually if you sit there wondering whether it's true or false, you never get anywhere. What they have to do is they have to commit to the thought. Okay, today, I'm going to try to prove it's true. I think it's true.

I'm going to try to.

I'm going to try to.

Prove it, and they'll work to prove it, and maybe in the process of trying to prove it, they'll find out that it's false, or maybe they just don't get anywhere, and the next day they go, Okay, given I couldn't find a proof yesterday, I think this is false, I'm going to look for an example that shows this is false, something that breaks the purported rule, and then they'll do that. But what I've heard from a lot of Matheaticians is you can't occupy both states at once. You have to at least temporarily commit yourself to one side of the ledger. You know, I'm going to push in this direction today, And even if you don't know which direction to go, you learn a lot by picking a direction and trying that.

Prove it, and they'll work to prove it, and maybe in the process of trying to prove it, they'll find out that it's false, or maybe they just don't get anywhere, and the next day they go, Okay, given I couldn't find a proof yesterday, I think this is false, I'm going to look for an example that shows this is false, something that breaks the purported rule, and then they'll do that. But what I've heard from a lot of Matheaticians is you can't occupy both states at once. You have to at least temporarily commit yourself to one side of the ledger. You know, I'm going to push in this direction today, And even if you don't know which direction to go, you learn a lot by picking a direction and trying that.

I find that ability to sit with a problem like that for years astounding. I recently, very recently figured out that I can solve crossword puzzles. Now, as a fifty year old man of fifty plus years who loves words, I should have known that sooner, but I didn't because I would get stumped early on and be like, Eh, I can't do this. Now I realize like, oh, I can do this. I love doing this. This is fun, this is enjoyable. There is some switch in me, And I don't know if that switch was that I suddenly started to believe that I could do it, and then that enabled me to stick with it. But I think that we could extrapolate this idea a little bit to how do we stick with things that we feel like we can't do. Now. You must face this all the time as a math teacher, right because one of the most common things you'll hear people say is I'm not good at math. You know, if you ask people what they're good at or it comes up, you're gonna hear I'm not good at math a lot. So I think there's a similarity here to me and my crossword puzzles. So let's talk a little bit about that process, maybe in how you teach it for math, and then maybe we can broaden it out to how we apply it to other areas of our lives that may be more impactful than a crossword puzzle.

I find that ability to sit with a problem like that for years astounding. I recently, very recently figured out that I can solve crossword puzzles. Now, as a fifty year old man of fifty plus years who loves words, I should have known that sooner, but I didn't because I would get stumped early on and be like, Eh, I can't do this. Now I realize like, oh, I can do this. I love doing this. This is fun, this is enjoyable. There is some switch in me, And I don't know if that switch was that I suddenly started to believe that I could do it, and then that enabled me to stick with it. But I think that we could extrapolate this idea a little bit to how do we stick with things that we feel like we can't do. Now. You must face this all the time as a math teacher, right because one of the most common things you'll hear people say is I'm not good at math. You know, if you ask people what they're good at or it comes up, you're gonna hear I'm not good at math a lot. So I think there's a similarity here to me and my crossword puzzles. So let's talk a little bit about that process, maybe in how you teach it for math, and then maybe we can broaden it out to how we apply it to other areas of our lives that may be more impactful than a crossword puzzle.

Yeah, yea, Although I love crossword puzzle, that's pretty high impact.

Yeah, yea, Although I love crossword puzzle, that's pretty high impact.

You know, you can spend a fifteen minutes a day sort of enjoying the New York Times puzzle.

You know, you can spend a fifteen minutes a day sort of enjoying the New York Times puzzle.

That's a nice way to spend the time.

That's a nice way to spend the time.

It is. It is.

It is. It is.

Yeah, it's definitely true what you say about people identifying as not a math person. It's sort of funny because everyone when they present it, they present it as sort of this idiosyncratic fact about them personally. It's like, oh, you know, it's just me. I'm just this funny person who's like, ah, I didn't really math didn't really click with me. It's like, yeah, there's hundreds of millions of people.

Yeah, it's definitely true what you say about people identifying as not a math person. It's sort of funny because everyone when they present it, they present it as sort of this idiosyncratic fact about them personally. It's like, oh, you know, it's just me. I'm just this funny person who's like, ah, I didn't really math didn't really click with me. It's like, yeah, there's hundreds of millions of people.

Like that in the United States.

Like that in the United States.

Like this is a solid majority of the country. I would say, so it's obviously not and maybe that's I think the first step for people. And it's not some personal failing of yours. And I try not to blame you.

Like this is a solid majority of the country. I would say, so it's obviously not and maybe that's I think the first step for people. And it's not some personal failing of yours. And I try not to blame you.

I'm a teacher. I love lots of other teachers.

I'm a teacher. I love lots of other teachers.

I try not to blame. It's not the teachers have failed. It's a weird thing we're trying to accomplish in math education. We're taking these five year olds and setting them down on this ten year journey where they're supposed to come out the other side having learned sort of like centuries worth of mathematical ideas, becoming expert in stuff that really only a very small elite would have ever had to learn in a lot of past generations. You know, these very abstract ideas that come with their own language that's presented in a pithy, very sometimes too short to brief the glimpse you get of these ideas. To me, there's no shock when someone struggles with mathematics or with mathematics education. That's sort of the default state. And I think for me that's a first step when there's something that I'm struggling with mathematical or something else, or when I see a student struggling, is to depersonalize it a little bit. It's not some shortcoming, some gap within you. You know, there's some missing jigsaw piece in your brain that you're never going to be able to get this. It's like not things are hard to learn. It takes time, it takes effort to take the teacher to walk you through it. So that's the first step for me. The second step is often motivational, why would I want to learn it? For a lot of students, the benefit to learning math is you can pass math classes and then stop taking them like that that's really it's a thing you want to learn so you can cease ever having to think about it. And so this varies a lot from person to person, but I try to find something that that feels meaningful to them, that will open something up for them in their life. Just a student the other day actually is their first day coming to my class. They enrolled late and missed the first week. And we were doing a little bit of work in spreadsheet programs, just in Microsoft Excel, and the student was saying it was just sort of like mouth open. They're like, my mom's been running a small business for years and doing the accounting with literal spreadsheets, like sheets of paper spread out and a hand calculator and adding up the numbers, you know, hours every month to get that to work. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, take this home. By the end of the semester, you'll be able to do that hours of work in five to ten minutes of updating the spreadsheet of people. I think it's's personal finance. You can give you a grasp on money and where you're putting it and how it's flowing and where it goes. You know, when the money's gone from the bank account.

I try not to blame. It's not the teachers have failed. It's a weird thing we're trying to accomplish in math education. We're taking these five year olds and setting them down on this ten year journey where they're supposed to come out the other side having learned sort of like centuries worth of mathematical ideas, becoming expert in stuff that really only a very small elite would have ever had to learn in a lot of past generations. You know, these very abstract ideas that come with their own language that's presented in a pithy, very sometimes too short to brief the glimpse you get of these ideas. To me, there's no shock when someone struggles with mathematics or with mathematics education. That's sort of the default state. And I think for me that's a first step when there's something that I'm struggling with mathematical or something else, or when I see a student struggling, is to depersonalize it a little bit. It's not some shortcoming, some gap within you. You know, there's some missing jigsaw piece in your brain that you're never going to be able to get this. It's like not things are hard to learn. It takes time, it takes effort to take the teacher to walk you through it. So that's the first step for me. The second step is often motivational, why would I want to learn it? For a lot of students, the benefit to learning math is you can pass math classes and then stop taking them like that that's really it's a thing you want to learn so you can cease ever having to think about it. And so this varies a lot from person to person, but I try to find something that that feels meaningful to them, that will open something up for them in their life. Just a student the other day actually is their first day coming to my class. They enrolled late and missed the first week. And we were doing a little bit of work in spreadsheet programs, just in Microsoft Excel, and the student was saying it was just sort of like mouth open. They're like, my mom's been running a small business for years and doing the accounting with literal spreadsheets, like sheets of paper spread out and a hand calculator and adding up the numbers, you know, hours every month to get that to work. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, take this home. By the end of the semester, you'll be able to do that hours of work in five to ten minutes of updating the spreadsheet of people. I think it's's personal finance. You can give you a grasp on money and where you're putting it and how it's flowing and where it goes. You know, when the money's gone from the bank account.

Where did it go?

Where did it go?

Just a little bit of extra grasp on mathematics and mathematical tools can really help with personal finance. So, especially for a lot of the adults I teach at community college, that's a very relevant one. And then especially for younger students, but for some adults too, mathematics is just this kind of beautiful set of ideas. It's connected to everything a little bit. It's kind of like this underground water source or something underground river that sort of connects all these different parts of the landscape that you wouldn't have thought were connected. And so, you know, one of the things I love to do is kind of collect great thinkers who are fascinated by mathematics. And you know, Abraham Lincoln loved mathematics, right, He read a lot of Euclid the geometry. He in fact memorized the whole geometry book. While he was in law school he was sort of working on his legal studies. He goes, oh, I'm never going to be a good lawyer unless I really understand argument, logic and proof. So okay, so I guess I've got to go read ancient geometry texts and learn it that way.

Just a little bit of extra grasp on mathematics and mathematical tools can really help with personal finance. So, especially for a lot of the adults I teach at community college, that's a very relevant one. And then especially for younger students, but for some adults too, mathematics is just this kind of beautiful set of ideas. It's connected to everything a little bit. It's kind of like this underground water source or something underground river that sort of connects all these different parts of the landscape that you wouldn't have thought were connected. And so, you know, one of the things I love to do is kind of collect great thinkers who are fascinated by mathematics. And you know, Abraham Lincoln loved mathematics, right, He read a lot of Euclid the geometry. He in fact memorized the whole geometry book. While he was in law school he was sort of working on his legal studies. He goes, oh, I'm never going to be a good lawyer unless I really understand argument, logic and proof. So okay, so I guess I've got to go read ancient geometry texts and learn it that way.

And memorize them.

And memorize them.

Is there, Oh yeah, he memorized the arguments.

Is there, Oh yeah, he memorized the arguments.

Yeah, I guess you can just get a lot done if you don't have TVs or cell phones or you know.

Yeah, I guess you can just get a lot done if you don't have TVs or cell phones or you know.

Right right, all you had to do back then was chop chop.

Right right, all you had to do back then was chop chop.

Electric lights.

Electric lights.

I mean, that's what I've been saying for you is electric lights are a huge distraction for us. It's really you know, it's shortening our attention span. It's we really got to got to go back to candles. Is rambling here in this answer, but yeah, I think the reason I ramble a little bit is because every person needs to find their own connection here. You know, for it was logic, it was mathematics as a model of logic, and for people who love Sudoku puzzles, that's a little bit the same thing. That's that's all, you know, air tight logical reasoning. And for some people it's you know, mathematics being connected to the arts and sort of the ways geometry plays into different artistic traditions. Cosmology is a topic that I'm always fascinated by, like what is this universe? And how does it work? And what on Earth is going on here? How did we get here, and mathematics really central to answering some of those questions. So for some people they sort of you get excited about science and maybe learning a little bit of mathematics will help open doors there.

I mean, that's what I've been saying for you is electric lights are a huge distraction for us. It's really you know, it's shortening our attention span. It's we really got to got to go back to candles. Is rambling here in this answer, but yeah, I think the reason I ramble a little bit is because every person needs to find their own connection here. You know, for it was logic, it was mathematics as a model of logic, and for people who love Sudoku puzzles, that's a little bit the same thing. That's that's all, you know, air tight logical reasoning. And for some people it's you know, mathematics being connected to the arts and sort of the ways geometry plays into different artistic traditions. Cosmology is a topic that I'm always fascinated by, like what is this universe? And how does it work? And what on Earth is going on here? How did we get here, and mathematics really central to answering some of those questions. So for some people they sort of you get excited about science and maybe learning a little bit of mathematics will help open doors there.

That is a quandary I run into often, which is the last time I took math would have been a long time ago. My main attempt in most of high school was simply how do I not go to school? How can I get out of going? So if I could have used mathematics to help with that, I probably would have. But I love popular science, but a lot of it. I'm reading the introduction and I'm like, okay, I'm cruising along here, and then start the equations, and all of a sudden, I'm like, you know what, to understand this, I'm going to have to go back a little ways. And I just never quite take the time then to go back and go you know what, some basic algebra W has served me really well in getting into all of these ideas.

That is a quandary I run into often, which is the last time I took math would have been a long time ago. My main attempt in most of high school was simply how do I not go to school? How can I get out of going? So if I could have used mathematics to help with that, I probably would have. But I love popular science, but a lot of it. I'm reading the introduction and I'm like, okay, I'm cruising along here, and then start the equations, and all of a sudden, I'm like, you know what, to understand this, I'm going to have to go back a little ways. And I just never quite take the time then to go back and go you know what, some basic algebra W has served me really well in getting into all of these ideas.

Yeah, yeah, I think of algebra especially it opens a lot of doors.

Yeah, yeah, I think of algebra especially it opens a lot of doors.

It's a key.

It's a key.

It's a key that's very hard to acquire, right. It takes a few years of education, and you know, in the USB teach course called algebra to you know, usually fourteen year olds or so. And I've taught that course and students don't really internalize it, don't really learn it until usually three four years later at the earliest, when they're when they're taking calculus or something like that. It's having to use those algebra skills later on that really forces you to absorb them. So it's not easy to learn algebra, but it just opens up so many doors down the road that you wouldn't have guessed. Yeah, especially in the sciences, but well, I don't know. Sciences touch everything, So you know, if you want to learn about economics or finance, or astronomy or or population biology or epidemiology and think about predicting the next pandemic, any of that, Yeah, just having the language of algebra really pays off.

It's a key that's very hard to acquire, right. It takes a few years of education, and you know, in the USB teach course called algebra to you know, usually fourteen year olds or so. And I've taught that course and students don't really internalize it, don't really learn it until usually three four years later at the earliest, when they're when they're taking calculus or something like that. It's having to use those algebra skills later on that really forces you to absorb them. So it's not easy to learn algebra, but it just opens up so many doors down the road that you wouldn't have guessed. Yeah, especially in the sciences, but well, I don't know. Sciences touch everything, So you know, if you want to learn about economics or finance, or astronomy or or population biology or epidemiology and think about predicting the next pandemic, any of that, Yeah, just having the language of algebra really pays off.

I'm trying to balance the desire to keep this conversation somewhat about what the one you feed talks about versus chasing it down mathematical rabbit holes. So I'm going to pull back up here for a second and say, like, let's keep going with this question of Okay, there's something in life that I can't seem to do or I'm intimidating by how do I work through it? And we've talked about how recognizing you're not alone in doing it is really important, right, recognizing that there is a problem lots of people share, humanizing it. We've moved on to trying to connect it to why it matters, and I think that's really important too. Same thing with like reading a book for thirty minutes, Like, Okay, why why does that actually matter to you? If we're unable to articulate that, well, we're not going to have sufficient motivation to stick with it, which I think is what you're saying about math. You've got to get the student interested somehow. So okay, now you've got the student recognizing I'm not alone and not liking math. Okay, I can see why this might be valid to me. You know, I have always wanted to read Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and I can't. And so, okay, algebra, where do we go next?

I'm trying to balance the desire to keep this conversation somewhat about what the one you feed talks about versus chasing it down mathematical rabbit holes. So I'm going to pull back up here for a second and say, like, let's keep going with this question of Okay, there's something in life that I can't seem to do or I'm intimidating by how do I work through it? And we've talked about how recognizing you're not alone in doing it is really important, right, recognizing that there is a problem lots of people share, humanizing it. We've moved on to trying to connect it to why it matters, and I think that's really important too. Same thing with like reading a book for thirty minutes, Like, Okay, why why does that actually matter to you? If we're unable to articulate that, well, we're not going to have sufficient motivation to stick with it, which I think is what you're saying about math. You've got to get the student interested somehow. So okay, now you've got the student recognizing I'm not alone and not liking math. Okay, I can see why this might be valid to me. You know, I have always wanted to read Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and I can't. And so, okay, algebra, where do we go next?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Yeah, for solving any particular problem. What I like to say, sort of the next step, once we've kind of walked around the outside of the problem and we're motivated to solve it, is getting a wrong answer down on the page deliberately wrong, right, Like you're not trying to answer it correctly, yet you're trying to get sort of maybe an obvious wrong answer, and then that gives you something to work on that sort of solves that blank page problem.

Yeah, for solving any particular problem. What I like to say, sort of the next step, once we've kind of walked around the outside of the problem and we're motivated to solve it, is getting a wrong answer down on the page deliberately wrong, right, Like you're not trying to answer it correctly, yet you're trying to get sort of maybe an obvious wrong answer, and then that gives you something to work on that sort of solves that blank page problem.

Right.

Right.

Anyone who's written knows that it really helps to have a draft in front of you, right. Getting that first draft down is pulling teeth. That's that's the hard part when solving a problem, just getting an answer down. In math, one of the questions I like to test students is, you know, what's an answer you know is much too big? And what's an answer you know is much too small? If we're trying to solve for some number, and that can start to build some intuition. It sort of says, okay, this is the sort of thing we're looking for. Or you know, if you're looking for some problem solving method, you say, okay, well, why wouldn't this work. It's another way of teaching yourself about the problem, introducing something that you know isn't quite the right solution. Yeah, it gives you a first draft to build on.

Anyone who's written knows that it really helps to have a draft in front of you, right. Getting that first draft down is pulling teeth. That's that's the hard part when solving a problem, just getting an answer down. In math, one of the questions I like to test students is, you know, what's an answer you know is much too big? And what's an answer you know is much too small? If we're trying to solve for some number, and that can start to build some intuition. It sort of says, okay, this is the sort of thing we're looking for. Or you know, if you're looking for some problem solving method, you say, okay, well, why wouldn't this work. It's another way of teaching yourself about the problem, introducing something that you know isn't quite the right solution. Yeah, it gives you a first draft to build on.

Excellent.

Excellent.

I want to jump back to a loop I didn't close earlier, which is you talked about, like, I think you talked about four steps of solving a problem, or four stages, and I think we got through about half of them. So maybe we can pause right now and close that because I think it's relevant to where we are in the conversation.

I want to jump back to a loop I didn't close earlier, which is you talked about, like, I think you talked about four steps of solving a problem, or four stages, and I think we got through about half of them. So maybe we can pause right now and close that because I think it's relevant to where we are in the conversation.

Yeah, yeah, this doubles I think making mistakes sort of like getting a wrong answer down. I would call that, yeah, sort of my second step there. Once you've explored the problem, once you've explored it further and you've worked for a while, one very important step I think is to step away from it, to not have a false sense of urgency that you have to solve it in the next ten minutes, and just give it some time, especially once it's kind of circulating.

Yeah, yeah, this doubles I think making mistakes sort of like getting a wrong answer down. I would call that, yeah, sort of my second step there. Once you've explored the problem, once you've explored it further and you've worked for a while, one very important step I think is to step away from it, to not have a false sense of urgency that you have to solve it in the next ten minutes, and just give it some time, especially once it's kind of circulating.

Around your mind.

Around your mind.

The back of your brain can do incredible things given a little space to breathe. So for me, it's you know, putting on headphones and going for a walk or going for a run, although I have to be careful when I'm on a run off and I'll have ideas that I think are brilliant at the time, and then I get home and look at like the little note I took on my phone. It's like waking up after a dream like, oh that that wasn't wasn't the idea I thought it was.

The back of your brain can do incredible things given a little space to breathe. So for me, it's you know, putting on headphones and going for a walk or going for a run, although I have to be careful when I'm on a run off and I'll have ideas that I think are brilliant at the time, and then I get home and look at like the little note I took on my phone. It's like waking up after a dream like, oh that that wasn't wasn't the idea I thought it was.

Yeah. What's interesting about that is I do think it mirrors an experience I used to have when I was a heavy substance users. I would write some part of a song or something and be like this is incredible and wake up in the morning and be like not so much. And for some reason, walk seem to do a little of the same thing. Some of the ideas are great, but I'm a little bit of stick by how some of them. I'm like, there must be something about the state of flow or it is what you want to have happen when you're initially brainstorming, which is the critic takes a vacation for a little bit like go away, critic, and walking seems to do that for me.

Yeah. What's interesting about that is I do think it mirrors an experience I used to have when I was a heavy substance users. I would write some part of a song or something and be like this is incredible and wake up in the morning and be like not so much. And for some reason, walk seem to do a little of the same thing. Some of the ideas are great, but I'm a little bit of stick by how some of them. I'm like, there must be something about the state of flow or it is what you want to have happen when you're initially brainstorming, which is the critic takes a vacation for a little bit like go away, critic, and walking seems to do that for me.

Yeah, yeah, I think it puts me a little more at ease. And it's a good reminder to someone who very much lives in my head, you know. I think math induces this, and people who sort of like you spend a lot of time with your thoughts and looking at screens, looking at paper. But it's good to remember I'm a body, you know, That's what I am. That's what I have, and then it moves around the world. I'm not just a computer where you can predictably feed me inputs and get the right outputs. You know, I need I need a little bit of serendipity. I need some surprises and things in front of my eyes that I didn't expect to see. I think stepping away and going for a walk, or cooking a meal or whatever it is that gives you something to keep your hands or your feet busy, and then your brain can keep working in the background. And then the final step is sort of the counterpoint to that, which is then you've got to go back to work. Yeah, you can hope that some inspiration will come, But this is true even of artists, right. A lot of the artists I admire, they have a very strict writing regimen, right. I mean Paul Simon when he was writing albums, he would just be writing a certain number of hours every day and that's how he generated it. Stephen King wrote, you know, three thousand words a day or some completely superhuman number of words.

Yeah, yeah, I think it puts me a little more at ease. And it's a good reminder to someone who very much lives in my head, you know. I think math induces this, and people who sort of like you spend a lot of time with your thoughts and looking at screens, looking at paper. But it's good to remember I'm a body, you know, That's what I am. That's what I have, and then it moves around the world. I'm not just a computer where you can predictably feed me inputs and get the right outputs. You know, I need I need a little bit of serendipity. I need some surprises and things in front of my eyes that I didn't expect to see. I think stepping away and going for a walk, or cooking a meal or whatever it is that gives you something to keep your hands or your feet busy, and then your brain can keep working in the background. And then the final step is sort of the counterpoint to that, which is then you've got to go back to work. Yeah, you can hope that some inspiration will come, But this is true even of artists, right. A lot of the artists I admire, they have a very strict writing regimen, right. I mean Paul Simon when he was writing albums, he would just be writing a certain number of hours every day and that's how he generated it. Stephen King wrote, you know, three thousand words a day or some completely superhuman number of words.

And I think, you know, most working artists, I should say, they do.

And I think, you know, most working artists, I should say, they do.

They have to write, otherwise you don't create what you need to create, Otherwise you don't solve the problems you're trying to solve within each work. Even if you feel uninspired, you've got to go back to it.

They have to write, otherwise you don't create what you need to create, Otherwise you don't solve the problems you're trying to solve within each work. Even if you feel uninspired, you've got to go back to it.

Let's shift direction just a little bit here. We're still talking about sort of overcoming fear or overcoming being stuck. I want to talk a little bit about the role of play in that, the role of humor, because you know, your first book was I think called Math with Bad Drawings.

Let's shift direction just a little bit here. We're still talking about sort of overcoming fear or overcoming being stuck. I want to talk a little bit about the role of play in that, the role of humor, because you know, your first book was I think called Math with Bad Drawings.

Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, you it's its fund seeing how translators handle that. There's one one where it just translates Math with the Worst Drawings.

Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, you it's its fund seeing how translators handle that. There's one one where it just translates Math with the Worst Drawings.

Got I've got demoted here.

Got I've got demoted here.

So yeah, you draw humorous little drawings that are intended to illustrate the concept, but also oftentimes just have fun. Right. There are times I see they help me figure out the concept, and there are other times I think they just sort of make light of the whole thing a little bit, which I think causes a reduction in the strain around trying to figure it out. So talk to me about play and humor and why that is the direction you've chosen to go.

So yeah, you draw humorous little drawings that are intended to illustrate the concept, but also oftentimes just have fun. Right. There are times I see they help me figure out the concept, and there are other times I think they just sort of make light of the whole thing a little bit, which I think causes a reduction in the strain around trying to figure it out. So talk to me about play and humor and why that is the direction you've chosen to go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, the bad drawings, there's a few things that led me to them, and one is my inability to draw or I just can't do it. And math is very visual, so you need you need pictures to explain things, and you need pictures to kind of punctuate, you know, the end of a thought. So I needed to draw, and I've never doodled as a kid. I really I should have practiced more. Yeah, But anyway, so I arrived in a and wanted to write these books about math and wasn't able to draw.

Yeah, for me, the bad drawings, there's a few things that led me to them, and one is my inability to draw or I just can't do it. And math is very visual, so you need you need pictures to explain things, and you need pictures to kind of punctuate, you know, the end of a thought. So I needed to draw, and I've never doodled as a kid. I really I should have practiced more. Yeah, But anyway, so I arrived in a and wanted to write these books about math and wasn't able to draw.

So okay, we're going to do stick figures.

So okay, we're going to do stick figures.

We're going to do you embraced your limitation.

We're going to do you embraced your limitation.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, And I think it wasn't a calculation on my part. It was sort of a shrugger of the shoulders and like, Okay, I guess that's the best I can do. But I think it creates a different tone or a different kind of space for people coming to mathematics, maybe not super enamored with the subject, because you come thinking, oh, I'm not really a math person. And it sort of activates people's defenses around being good at things being bad at things. And so to have the person you're learning this stuff from be very self evidently leading with something they're bad at, right kind of putting their worst foot forward. Yeah, yeah, I think it kind of demystifies a little bit. Or we're coming here as fellow human beings, with our strengths and our weaknesses and our gaps and our knowledge sets. We're here to share things. I'm not here to stand on a mountaintop and pronounce the truths of mathematics.

Yeah, And I think it wasn't a calculation on my part. It was sort of a shrugger of the shoulders and like, Okay, I guess that's the best I can do. But I think it creates a different tone or a different kind of space for people coming to mathematics, maybe not super enamored with the subject, because you come thinking, oh, I'm not really a math person. And it sort of activates people's defenses around being good at things being bad at things. And so to have the person you're learning this stuff from be very self evidently leading with something they're bad at, right kind of putting their worst foot forward. Yeah, yeah, I think it kind of demystifies a little bit. Or we're coming here as fellow human beings, with our strengths and our weaknesses and our gaps and our knowledge sets. We're here to share things. I'm not here to stand on a mountaintop and pronounce the truths of mathematics.

One of your earlier books is called Change is the Only Constant. It's about calculus. I may not have that title exactly right, but as a person who studied a lot of Buddhist and Eastern thought, this idea of impermanency is central to the whole game. Talk to me about the role that change plays in mathematics. Yeah, and maybe how math brings that concept alive. And I'll say one last thing and then I'm to turn it over to you. There's a phrase from the Japanese poet bas Show, who says, I'm not going to get it exactly right. You learn more about impermanence from a falling leaf than like a thousand words about it. So, but math probably shines a different light on that same idea. Right, there's another way of learning more about impermanence. Talk to me about it mathematically.

One of your earlier books is called Change is the Only Constant. It's about calculus. I may not have that title exactly right, but as a person who studied a lot of Buddhist and Eastern thought, this idea of impermanency is central to the whole game. Talk to me about the role that change plays in mathematics. Yeah, and maybe how math brings that concept alive. And I'll say one last thing and then I'm to turn it over to you. There's a phrase from the Japanese poet bas Show, who says, I'm not going to get it exactly right. You learn more about impermanence from a falling leaf than like a thousand words about it. So, but math probably shines a different light on that same idea. Right, there's another way of learning more about impermanence. Talk to me about it mathematically.

Yeah, change was something that mathematics always struggled with. I think it's one way to put it. That's somehow. A lot of mathematics that was developed by brilliant mathematicians dealt with static situations, and it was actually change in motion that presented some of the most vexing mysteries, and of course one of the most ancient ones. And this comes up in the Western tradition, comes up in the Chinese school of Nams was a philosophical school, is what we call Zeno's paradox. So the idea that you know, if you and I are going to high five each other, you know, would phrase it a little differently. But if we're going to do a high five, like to complete that high five, we need to get halfway there, right, Like our hands start three feet apart, we got to get to a foot and a half apart, and then okay, that takes some amount of time. But then to complete the high five, now we need to go halfway again and get to you know, three quarters of befoot apart or nine inches apart now, but we're still not there yet. There's another step. We got to go halfway again, and now our hands are really close, but there's still another step. You got to go halfway again and halfway again, and so there's this infinite series of actions you have to complete just to high five somebody.

Yeah, change was something that mathematics always struggled with. I think it's one way to put it. That's somehow. A lot of mathematics that was developed by brilliant mathematicians dealt with static situations, and it was actually change in motion that presented some of the most vexing mysteries, and of course one of the most ancient ones. And this comes up in the Western tradition, comes up in the Chinese school of Nams was a philosophical school, is what we call Zeno's paradox. So the idea that you know, if you and I are going to high five each other, you know, would phrase it a little differently. But if we're going to do a high five, like to complete that high five, we need to get halfway there, right, Like our hands start three feet apart, we got to get to a foot and a half apart, and then okay, that takes some amount of time. But then to complete the high five, now we need to go halfway again and get to you know, three quarters of befoot apart or nine inches apart now, but we're still not there yet. There's another step. We got to go halfway again, and now our hands are really close, but there's still another step. You got to go halfway again and halfway again, and so there's this infinite series of actions you have to complete just to high five somebody.

And this is sort of true of all motion. It feels like all.

And this is sort of true of all motion. It feels like all.

Change, anything that you want to happen, you can decompose it into an infinite series of steps, which, certainly from a perspective making change in your life is very daunting thought that somehow any change is infinite in scope.

Change, anything that you want to happen, you can decompose it into an infinite series of steps, which, certainly from a perspective making change in your life is very daunting thought that somehow any change is infinite in scope.

It often is. I think there is change that is goal oriented, as in I'm going to run a five k, But if your bigger goal, the reason you want to run a five k, is that you value your physical health, then change is infinite because there's never a day that your physical health is like, Okay, I have established it. Now it is set. I will go about all my other business and it will remain in place. It's the same thing with like we can't just eat once.

It often is. I think there is change that is goal oriented, as in I'm going to run a five k, But if your bigger goal, the reason you want to run a five k, is that you value your physical health, then change is infinite because there's never a day that your physical health is like, Okay, I have established it. Now it is set. I will go about all my other business and it will remain in place. It's the same thing with like we can't just eat once.

I've locked in healthy eating. I had a salad for lunch yesterday. It was delicious, that was it, and now I'm done. Now I can have cinnamon buns.

I've locked in healthy eating. I had a salad for lunch yesterday. It was delicious, that was it, and now I'm done. Now I can have cinnamon buns.

Every day and yeah, yeah, exactly.

Every day and yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, So maybe that's right, though, Yeah, Zeno was onto something. I think, as you know, was certainly onto something. Obviously, as Zino understood, you can complete an action, right, we see people walk across a room and they get all the way to the end. So clearly there's something a little tricky about his logic. But Bertrand Russell, the twentieth century philosopher, said that sort of every generation since Zeno has had to reckon with that paradox. Right, on the one hand, we do complete actions. On the other hand, there's this sort of compelling argument that it's impossible, that it's infinite, that we'll never get there, and so every generation has sort of had a different answer to that question.

Yeah, So maybe that's right, though, Yeah, Zeno was onto something. I think, as you know, was certainly onto something. Obviously, as Zino understood, you can complete an action, right, we see people walk across a room and they get all the way to the end. So clearly there's something a little tricky about his logic. But Bertrand Russell, the twentieth century philosopher, said that sort of every generation since Zeno has had to reckon with that paradox. Right, on the one hand, we do complete actions. On the other hand, there's this sort of compelling argument that it's impossible, that it's infinite, that we'll never get there, and so every generation has sort of had a different answer to that question.

What does your generation? I think we're probably sort of a generation apart, not quite so, what would Russell say, your generations wrangling with Zeno's paradoxes?

What does your generation? I think we're probably sort of a generation apart, not quite so, what would Russell say, your generations wrangling with Zeno's paradoxes?

Oh, that's interesting, right, I guess I'm sort of a squarely in the millennial generation.

Oh, that's interesting, right, I guess I'm sort of a squarely in the millennial generation.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

I think the millennials that looking at us from the outside, I think we have a reputation for being a little square, a little earnest, you know, compared to Gen X, which was always steeped in irony and gen Z, which sort of finds millennials hopelessly straightforward in earnest. I think there's something about millennials maybe that just want to be like, no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna get there, I'm gonna I'm gonna go halfway and halfway again. I'm going to complete that sequence of actions.

I think the millennials that looking at us from the outside, I think we have a reputation for being a little square, a little earnest, you know, compared to Gen X, which was always steeped in irony and gen Z, which sort of finds millennials hopelessly straightforward in earnest. I think there's something about millennials maybe that just want to be like, no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna get there, I'm gonna I'm gonna go halfway and halfway again. I'm going to complete that sequence of actions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So maybe, yeah, maybe the lesson for millennials would be to embrace a little more, a little more mystery in that, a little more accepting it as a paradox.

So maybe, yeah, maybe the lesson for millennials would be to embrace a little more, a little more mystery in that, a little more accepting it as a paradox.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take in it, to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it if you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list, I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed are good Wolves together. So there's a recent post on your blog about the poet Adrian Rich and really about this idea of change. Can you share a little bit more of what you wrote there?

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode. Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative to take in it, to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect. What's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect. It can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present. Cant it if you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, I'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list, I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well, So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed are good Wolves together. So there's a recent post on your blog about the poet Adrian Rich and really about this idea of change. Can you share a little bit more of what you wrote there?

Yeah, yeah, I came case you're in Rich very sideways. It was just through I came across a quotation of hers, totally out of context, that the moment of change is the only poem, and I thought that was lovely. Didn't know anything about Adrian Rich because I'm not particularly noulptible about poetry. And so this is actually while I was working on that Calculus book, I went and read, you know, a few of her collections and essays she'd written, and found her a fascinating figure and really someone who embodied change in her life because she had, say she was living in doing her best work in the sixties, seventies, eighties, and so as of the late fifties into the early sixties, she was living a very sort of conventional looking life. You know, she was, I think mostly a homemaker, housewife. She had a few kids, her husband was a professor at Harvard, and she wrote very careful and sort of immaculate but fairly traditional poetry. And anyone who knows Adrian Rich knows her as a radical feminist, lesbian, you know, who had female lovers and wrote about sort of breaking loose from societal constraints and completely reimagining out of the world around us. And so how did she get from the one spot to the other? And it was sort of this gradual process. One of the things she started doing was putting the date the year in parentheses at the end of each of her poems. You know, I'm sure it was just a sort of artistic intuition, but later when she reflected on it, she said they were starting to feel more like snapshots, less like completed works, and more like, yeah, moments.