If you really want our relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, you've got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you're increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential for freedom.

If you really want our relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, you've got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you're increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential for freedom.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

What if the biggest thing getting in the way of love is the way we hold on to it. That was one of the biggest insights I took from this conversation with Diego Perez, better known as Young Pueblo he said something that really stuck with me. Attachment is just a deep form of inflexibility. It can look like love, but it's often about control. It reminded me of something my partner Ginny has said, which is that when we fixate on one specific thing, like a cupcake, nothing else will satisfy us. But when we step back and recognize what we actually need underneath it, so many possibilities open up. That's flexibility. And in this episode, Diego shares how meditation reshaped his relationships, why growth, kindness, and compassions are green flags and relationships, and how we can advocate for our needs without clinging too tightly to our stories. This was such a warm and insightful conversation and I know you'll take something valuable from it. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Diego, Welcome to the show.

What if the biggest thing getting in the way of love is the way we hold on to it. That was one of the biggest insights I took from this conversation with Diego Perez, better known as Young Pueblo he said something that really stuck with me. Attachment is just a deep form of inflexibility. It can look like love, but it's often about control. It reminded me of something my partner Ginny has said, which is that when we fixate on one specific thing, like a cupcake, nothing else will satisfy us. But when we step back and recognize what we actually need underneath it, so many possibilities open up. That's flexibility. And in this episode, Diego shares how meditation reshaped his relationships, why growth, kindness, and compassions are green flags and relationships, and how we can advocate for our needs without clinging too tightly to our stories. This was such a warm and insightful conversation and I know you'll take something valuable from it. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Diego, Welcome to the show.

Hey Eric, thank you for having me.

Hey Eric, thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you back on. This time around, we're going to be discussing your book, How to Love Better, the Path to Deeper connection through growth, Kindness and compassion, and so we'll get to that in a minute, but let's start, like we always do, with a parable in the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you back on. This time around, we're going to be discussing your book, How to Love Better, the Path to Deeper connection through growth, Kindness and compassion, and so we'll get to that in a minute, but let's start, like we always do, with a parable in the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.

That you do.

That you do.

Yeah, I mean that parable is really so powerful and it's nice, you know, hearing it once again and reflecting on it, And immediately it made me think back to how the wolf that I was afraid of was fear itself, like the fear to feel my own emotions. And I think what it really means is like embracing the good wolf, embracing like the good qualities of life is really just having the resilience to feel, just the resilience to feel the simplicity of that, and how that's turned my life in a much better direction.

Yeah, I mean that parable is really so powerful and it's nice, you know, hearing it once again and reflecting on it, And immediately it made me think back to how the wolf that I was afraid of was fear itself, like the fear to feel my own emotions. And I think what it really means is like embracing the good wolf, embracing like the good qualities of life is really just having the resilience to feel, just the resilience to feel the simplicity of that, and how that's turned my life in a much better direction.

The thing that comes through in this book very clear is your meditation practice. It's really emphasized. I think you say in the book you've been at it for about twelve years and that you have something like twelve thousand hours of practice, which that's a lot of diligence, right. I assume some of that gets stacked up in you know, longer silent retreat But that's a very dedicated and focused practice. As someone who's been a long time meditator myself, I do find that the motivation wanes from time to time for you. How does it stay high enough to keep that level of continuous practice up.

The thing that comes through in this book very clear is your meditation practice. It's really emphasized. I think you say in the book you've been at it for about twelve years and that you have something like twelve thousand hours of practice, which that's a lot of diligence, right. I assume some of that gets stacked up in you know, longer silent retreat But that's a very dedicated and focused practice. As someone who's been a long time meditator myself, I do find that the motivation wanes from time to time for you. How does it stay high enough to keep that level of continuous practice up.

I guess I'm really motivated by the results. Honestly, I think it's the best investment I've ever made. It's, you know, better than investing in the S and P.

I guess I'm really motivated by the results. Honestly, I think it's the best investment I've ever made. It's, you know, better than investing in the S and P.

Five hundred.

Five hundred.

It's just like such a strong result oriented practice where I see how when I go to retreats, I started making better decisions when I was back home, and then when I started meditating daily, my capacity and my creativity started expanding. And not only that on the individual level, but on the interpersonal level, like all my relationships started deepening. So there are definitely times where you know, it's more difficult than others to sit my you know, two hours a day, but I always get it done because I know that I'm just better off for it. And it's almost like you know, feeding myself daily, Like I have to feed myself, bathe myself, and at the same time, I also have to tend to my mind. So it feels pretty essential.

It's just like such a strong result oriented practice where I see how when I go to retreats, I started making better decisions when I was back home, and then when I started meditating daily, my capacity and my creativity started expanding. And not only that on the individual level, but on the interpersonal level, like all my relationships started deepening. So there are definitely times where you know, it's more difficult than others to sit my you know, two hours a day, but I always get it done because I know that I'm just better off for it. And it's almost like you know, feeding myself daily, Like I have to feed myself, bathe myself, and at the same time, I also have to tend to my mind. So it feels pretty essential.

Have you had any time in there where you have slipped a little bit and done less of it and then been like, oh boy, I can really tell the difference, or are you still just sort of running off of a I know this is really good for me, keep doing it kind of thing.

Have you had any time in there where you have slipped a little bit and done less of it and then been like, oh boy, I can really tell the difference, or are you still just sort of running off of a I know this is really good for me, keep doing it kind of thing.

Yeah, honestly, it would take a lot to make me not do it, but I haven't. I've been doing it now for like, I started meditating in twenty twelve, and I started going to retreats, but then I started meditating daily in the beginning of twenty fifteen, and it's been ongoing now for what is that, like almost ten years in the summer, yam, so, yeah, I mean I've been I think it was just like, you know, i'd have to be like really sick or something like that, or in a coma or or you know, if I had a child and they like needed me twenty four to seven or something like that. But because right now I have that luxury of you know, not having kids and being healthy, it gets the priority it needs.

Yeah, honestly, it would take a lot to make me not do it, but I haven't. I've been doing it now for like, I started meditating in twenty twelve, and I started going to retreats, but then I started meditating daily in the beginning of twenty fifteen, and it's been ongoing now for what is that, like almost ten years in the summer, yam, so, yeah, I mean I've been I think it was just like, you know, i'd have to be like really sick or something like that, or in a coma or or you know, if I had a child and they like needed me twenty four to seven or something like that. But because right now I have that luxury of you know, not having kids and being healthy, it gets the priority it needs.

Got it all?

Got it all?

Right, Let's move into the book itself about how to Love Better. We're going to explore some of the big ideas in the book, but I want to start with you talk about something called green flags in relationships, or we've heard the term red flag in relationship, but you know three green flags that you talk about our growth, kindness, and compassion, And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about why you chose those and why they're important for relationships.

Right, Let's move into the book itself about how to Love Better. We're going to explore some of the big ideas in the book, but I want to start with you talk about something called green flags in relationships, or we've heard the term red flag in relationship, but you know three green flags that you talk about our growth, kindness, and compassion, And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about why you chose those and why they're important for relationships.

Yeah, I think you know, they felt really critical, especially the you know, the growth one where you get into a relationship and as soon as you're in there, you start seeing very clearly what you're good at and what you're not good at. You know that you can see if you lack the skill of listening well, or if you lack patience and whatnot. And I think embracing your own growth and understanding that it's really a lifelong journey, whether you're in partnership or not, that that's going to help you just show up as the best version of yourself. And I think a lot of times people want to be in a relationship with someone who has their stuff figured out. But the reality is that, like everyone comes into a relationship quite imperfect, and instead of wanting someone to like, you know, have all the emotional skill set and all of that figured out, instead, what you're really looking for is that they embrace growth that they see and it can hold themselves accountable and then can step up and repair what they need to repair. The other element, you know, one of kindness is that when you're in proximity to someone, whomever you're in proximity to, whether it's a roommate, whether it's a family member, whether it's someone you're you know in an intimate relationship with the person that you're closest to is going to see the best of you and the worst of you. So being intentional about having the vulnerability to let someone see you in your down moments, but also still you know, doing your best to be sweet with them, to give them your kindness, to treat them gently, because that kindness that you can receive from another person, it helps you move through the ups and downs of life. And then the last element of compassion. I'm speaking about a very specific form of compassion where you are doing your best to step outside of your perspective to see the perspective of another person, because this is the fundamental skill set that you need to be able to solve arguments when they arise.

Yeah, I think you know, they felt really critical, especially the you know, the growth one where you get into a relationship and as soon as you're in there, you start seeing very clearly what you're good at and what you're not good at. You know that you can see if you lack the skill of listening well, or if you lack patience and whatnot. And I think embracing your own growth and understanding that it's really a lifelong journey, whether you're in partnership or not, that that's going to help you just show up as the best version of yourself. And I think a lot of times people want to be in a relationship with someone who has their stuff figured out. But the reality is that, like everyone comes into a relationship quite imperfect, and instead of wanting someone to like, you know, have all the emotional skill set and all of that figured out, instead, what you're really looking for is that they embrace growth that they see and it can hold themselves accountable and then can step up and repair what they need to repair. The other element, you know, one of kindness is that when you're in proximity to someone, whomever you're in proximity to, whether it's a roommate, whether it's a family member, whether it's someone you're you know in an intimate relationship with the person that you're closest to is going to see the best of you and the worst of you. So being intentional about having the vulnerability to let someone see you in your down moments, but also still you know, doing your best to be sweet with them, to give them your kindness, to treat them gently, because that kindness that you can receive from another person, it helps you move through the ups and downs of life. And then the last element of compassion. I'm speaking about a very specific form of compassion where you are doing your best to step outside of your perspective to see the perspective of another person, because this is the fundamental skill set that you need to be able to solve arguments when they arise.

I was going to ask about the difference between compassion and kindness. So in this case, kindness is sort of all the gestures and the general orientation towards a person in your general interactions.

I was going to ask about the difference between compassion and kindness. So in this case, kindness is sort of all the gestures and the general orientation towards a person in your general interactions.

Yeah, the care, the gentleness, Yeah.

Yeah, the care, the gentleness, Yeah.

And compassion is the ability to say, hang on, I don't necessarily agree with what they're saying, but I'm going to pause, and I'm going to perhaps elevate myself a little bit and try and see their side of it before I have a reaction.

And compassion is the ability to say, hang on, I don't necessarily agree with what they're saying, but I'm going to pause, and I'm going to perhaps elevate myself a little bit and try and see their side of it before I have a reaction.

Oh exactly. You know, it's an element of humility where you understand that, Okay, I may be having my own set of experiences, but my perception is not perfect. I don't know exactly what's going on. I may know for myself, but let me take a moment to really listen to my partner and hear how things are moving for them.

Oh exactly. You know, it's an element of humility where you understand that, Okay, I may be having my own set of experiences, but my perception is not perfect. I don't know exactly what's going on. I may know for myself, but let me take a moment to really listen to my partner and hear how things are moving for them.

Humility is a word that you use a lot in this book, and it is not a word that shows up a lot of places very often. Now, I got sober in a twelve step program, and you know, one of the steps has the word humility or humble in it. And the AA Big book talks about humility a fair amount, but I don't see it very often. Why is that a word that resonates with you? And maybe before you tell us why it resonates with you, tell us what it means to you.

Humility is a word that you use a lot in this book, and it is not a word that shows up a lot of places very often. Now, I got sober in a twelve step program, and you know, one of the steps has the word humility or humble in it. And the AA Big book talks about humility a fair amount, but I don't see it very often. Why is that a word that resonates with you? And maybe before you tell us why it resonates with you, tell us what it means to you.

You know, it's funny.

You know, it's funny.

I'm glad that you're like catching on that too, because I find that it's not a very popular word. Like if you try to write a post and you're sort of building that post around the word humility, like.

I'm glad that you're like catching on that too, because I find that it's not a very popular word. Like if you try to write a post and you're sort of building that post around the word humility, like.

It is just gonna flow even for your audience.

It is just gonna flow even for your audience.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

And that's why, like you know, a lot of the stuff that you'll see on my Instagram account, it's to peauk your interests and to hopefully so that you can develop a sense of trust, so that you then give me your patience to then hear about subjects like humility and how important they are. I mean, to me, humility is the simple art of fully understanding that I don't know everything and I have a lot to learn and that my perspectives and whatnot with my views, they're not complete, they're not perfect, and that it's worth learning and communicating with others to be able to expand what I know.

And that's why, like you know, a lot of the stuff that you'll see on my Instagram account, it's to peauk your interests and to hopefully so that you can develop a sense of trust, so that you then give me your patience to then hear about subjects like humility and how important they are. I mean, to me, humility is the simple art of fully understanding that I don't know everything and I have a lot to learn and that my perspectives and whatnot with my views, they're not complete, they're not perfect, and that it's worth learning and communicating with others to be able to expand what I know.

That's a great definition.

That's a great definition.

Yeah, you know, not only is that like critical in your own growth journey, but in your relationship coming into it. Like I think about it as if there's another green flag. It's when you are really getting to know somebody who see that you know, they don't act like they know everything that they ask questions that they're like furious about, you know, tell me more, Like, tell me more is one of my favorite sentences.

Yeah, you know, not only is that like critical in your own growth journey, but in your relationship coming into it. Like I think about it as if there's another green flag. It's when you are really getting to know somebody who see that you know, they don't act like they know everything that they ask questions that they're like furious about, you know, tell me more, Like, tell me more is one of my favorite sentences.

Yeah, the definition that I had heard for a while is slightly different. I think it's just a slightly different orientation of the same idea, which is that it's about having a very accurate assessment of your good and bad qualities.

Yeah, the definition that I had heard for a while is slightly different. I think it's just a slightly different orientation of the same idea, which is that it's about having a very accurate assessment of your good and bad qualities.

Right.

Right.

It's not about knowing all about what's bad about you, It's not about denying what's good about you. It's about having a relatively clear picture of here's the type of person I am. But I really love that idea of just recognizing you don't know everything and being open like that is such an important skill and talk about like green flags. It is one of the things that attracts me to other people in any way, shape or form, and repels me from people who think they know everything. Like I'm allergic to it a little bit, you know, like almost to the point that I need to like get over it a little bit. But it's one of my least favorite character traits.

It's not about knowing all about what's bad about you, It's not about denying what's good about you. It's about having a relatively clear picture of here's the type of person I am. But I really love that idea of just recognizing you don't know everything and being open like that is such an important skill and talk about like green flags. It is one of the things that attracts me to other people in any way, shape or form, and repels me from people who think they know everything. Like I'm allergic to it a little bit, you know, like almost to the point that I need to like get over it a little bit. But it's one of my least favorite character traits.

I'm with you, and I think when I encounter people who have that humility to learn more from others, to me, it's an immediate sign of intelligence and that they have the sort of like mental capacity and framework for higher intelligence to be able to like keep building on complexity because any views that any human is going to develop, they're just going to be very tilted, tainted, imperfect, like we can only see so far.

I'm with you, and I think when I encounter people who have that humility to learn more from others, to me, it's an immediate sign of intelligence and that they have the sort of like mental capacity and framework for higher intelligence to be able to like keep building on complexity because any views that any human is going to develop, they're just going to be very tilted, tainted, imperfect, like we can only see so far.

That's why we need each other.

That's why we need each other.

So let's move into one of the first key ideas in the book to me, which is that our own personal growth is really foundational to a good relationship.

So let's move into one of the first key ideas in the book to me, which is that our own personal growth is really foundational to a good relationship.

You know.

You know.

To me, it was quite shocking that I went into meditating for my own personal development, for my own healing, and I started receiving the results of that pretty quickly. I started seeing that my mind felt lighter. Self awareness started developing. But it was a surprise, a good surprise to see that it was immediately affecting my relationships in a very positive way. You know, started deepening my relationship with my parents, my relationship with my wife who was then my girlfriend, started getting deeper, even relationships with friends. And it started really dawning on me how my relationship was just showing me so much of where I needed to grow. And if I refused to grow in these areas like listening better, having more patience, pausing, slowing down my reactions to just you know, give myself time to think. If I didn't accept that challenge to grow, then the relationship was just going to keep staying hard and probably getting harder. So you know, in my mind, there's no other alternative than to understand, like whether you meditate or not. Like, you know, there's a lot of room for growth in a relationship for every individual.

To me, it was quite shocking that I went into meditating for my own personal development, for my own healing, and I started receiving the results of that pretty quickly. I started seeing that my mind felt lighter. Self awareness started developing. But it was a surprise, a good surprise to see that it was immediately affecting my relationships in a very positive way. You know, started deepening my relationship with my parents, my relationship with my wife who was then my girlfriend, started getting deeper, even relationships with friends. And it started really dawning on me how my relationship was just showing me so much of where I needed to grow. And if I refused to grow in these areas like listening better, having more patience, pausing, slowing down my reactions to just you know, give myself time to think. If I didn't accept that challenge to grow, then the relationship was just going to keep staying hard and probably getting harder. So you know, in my mind, there's no other alternative than to understand, like whether you meditate or not. Like, you know, there's a lot of room for growth in a relationship for every individual.

Well, you could just focus all your energy on getting the other person to grow and change.

Well, you could just focus all your energy on getting the other person to grow and change.

Does that work?

Does that work?

And I know from experience, yeah, it's often the standard approach.

And I know from experience, yeah, it's often the standard approach.

The first six years of my relationship with my wife, it was just like a giant blame game.

The first six years of my relationship with my wife, it was just like a giant blame game.

You know.

You know.

It was just like, how can I figure out, how can I make this tension in my mind your fault?

It was just like, how can I figure out, how can I make this tension in my mind your fault?

And we never won. Neither of us won.

And we never won. Neither of us won.

No, It's funny to me and I laugh from having been in this exact situation at times where I'm sitting there learning something new about growth and thinking in my mind, like, you know, who really needs to hear this?

No, It's funny to me and I laugh from having been in this exact situation at times where I'm sitting there learning something new about growth and thinking in my mind, like, you know, who really needs to hear this?

Oh? I know?

Oh? I know?

And the answer is to me. It's like it's you, the person who's looking in the mirror.

And the answer is to me. It's like it's you, the person who's looking in the mirror.

You make an interesting point though, about how growth from both people is sort of important, and I've seen this happen a lot. My peers are older than yours, but I've seen this happen a lot with people, you know, somewhere near my age. The kids are finally up and out of the house, and one of the partners just really embarks on like growth and change and wanting to be a different person in a lot of ways, and the other person just says, think, I'm just going to stay right here. Yeah, And that becomes really problematic and really painful for everybody involved, because on one hand, you can't fault the person who's like, but we've been in this marriage all these years, and you were this way and now you're different, and you're expecting me to come along like all of a sudden, And yet you can't fault somebody either for being like I want to change, I want to grow and and I think we can talk about this a little bit more later in the conversation, but I think some of figuring out is this workable? Am I okay with this? In those situations where it's a little more nebulous, right, like nobody's done anything wrong. Most people in the really relationship or kind and good people, you know, and figuring that out is really difficult.

You make an interesting point though, about how growth from both people is sort of important, and I've seen this happen a lot. My peers are older than yours, but I've seen this happen a lot with people, you know, somewhere near my age. The kids are finally up and out of the house, and one of the partners just really embarks on like growth and change and wanting to be a different person in a lot of ways, and the other person just says, think, I'm just going to stay right here. Yeah, And that becomes really problematic and really painful for everybody involved, because on one hand, you can't fault the person who's like, but we've been in this marriage all these years, and you were this way and now you're different, and you're expecting me to come along like all of a sudden, And yet you can't fault somebody either for being like I want to change, I want to grow and and I think we can talk about this a little bit more later in the conversation, but I think some of figuring out is this workable? Am I okay with this? In those situations where it's a little more nebulous, right, like nobody's done anything wrong. Most people in the really relationship or kind and good people, you know, and figuring that out is really difficult.

Yeah, And I think, you know, it's funny because that even comes back to humility in a certain degree, where you have to learn to be okay with people growing in their own way and also growing at their own speed, Like we're not going to grow. This is like we have such different conditioning. You know, some people have experience immense amounts of traumas others less so, and so that means, like, you know, when you're trying to grow, like developing some qualities might be super super difficult, like someone developing patients when all they've known for years is survival and they're just like you know, trying to dodge things so that they can not be hurt. So I think understanding that one we don't have to change the same way, we don't have to change the same speed, and that growth for you may look super different for me. Like if someone is really adamant about I don't know, like meditating or going to therapy or just doing whatever it is, and maybe another person just needs to accept they just need to accept themselves as they are, and that can be one of the biggest growth moments for them in their life because they've been striving, striving, striving, and you know, trying to be a very productive member of society or whatnot, and to just be able to accept yourself as you are could open up a world of peace inside of you. And I've seen it work in a lot of different ways, you know, with couples of all ages, where one person is really interested and takes care of themselves by hiking and being in nature doing art. Other people who really enjoy therapy, really enjoy meditating. I think people just have different tools that connect with them.

Yeah, And I think, you know, it's funny because that even comes back to humility in a certain degree, where you have to learn to be okay with people growing in their own way and also growing at their own speed, Like we're not going to grow. This is like we have such different conditioning. You know, some people have experience immense amounts of traumas others less so, and so that means, like, you know, when you're trying to grow, like developing some qualities might be super super difficult, like someone developing patients when all they've known for years is survival and they're just like you know, trying to dodge things so that they can not be hurt. So I think understanding that one we don't have to change the same way, we don't have to change the same speed, and that growth for you may look super different for me. Like if someone is really adamant about I don't know, like meditating or going to therapy or just doing whatever it is, and maybe another person just needs to accept they just need to accept themselves as they are, and that can be one of the biggest growth moments for them in their life because they've been striving, striving, striving, and you know, trying to be a very productive member of society or whatnot, and to just be able to accept yourself as you are could open up a world of peace inside of you. And I've seen it work in a lot of different ways, you know, with couples of all ages, where one person is really interested and takes care of themselves by hiking and being in nature doing art. Other people who really enjoy therapy, really enjoy meditating. I think people just have different tools that connect with them.

Well.

Well.

One of the things I've realized as my partner and I have been together longer and I think we're in essentially our tenth year is in the beginning. In a lot of relationships, I think there's a certain amount of you sort of move towards each other because you're trying to connect, and then over time if things are good. This is another theme we're going to get to, right, this ability to sort of have freedom to grow and change and move in a relationship. And so with my partner and I, Ginny, I've noticed that we have grown a part in some areas. And I don't mean a part as a couple. I mean like, I like this and she likes that. In the beginning, we might have both been a little bit more like meeting on that. And now there's a little bit more like just letting the other person be like, oh, I like this, and me making sure that I like this only means I like this, not you should like this, right right, Like thinking that the choices that I make are somehow more conducive to a good life or whatever, and realizing like that's preposter Like, no, it's not. It's really preference and who we are as people, and allowing that to sort of be That's something I continue to learn.

One of the things I've realized as my partner and I have been together longer and I think we're in essentially our tenth year is in the beginning. In a lot of relationships, I think there's a certain amount of you sort of move towards each other because you're trying to connect, and then over time if things are good. This is another theme we're going to get to, right, this ability to sort of have freedom to grow and change and move in a relationship. And so with my partner and I, Ginny, I've noticed that we have grown a part in some areas. And I don't mean a part as a couple. I mean like, I like this and she likes that. In the beginning, we might have both been a little bit more like meeting on that. And now there's a little bit more like just letting the other person be like, oh, I like this, and me making sure that I like this only means I like this, not you should like this, right right, Like thinking that the choices that I make are somehow more conducive to a good life or whatever, and realizing like that's preposter Like, no, it's not. It's really preference and who we are as people, and allowing that to sort of be That's something I continue to learn.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Eric, Is that really to me, it's a sign of very healthy love because from my perspective, you're not only getting the safety of commitment, right clear commitment towards each other, but because that is so firm and established, you have the freedom to explore, to explore your interests, to just go and you know, see what's out there in the world, and still be able to come back home and have that nourishment of your partnership there. And I think a lot of people get scared by the word freedom because you immediately think, oh, they're going to start sleeping with other people and dating other people. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the freedom to like let your preferences change, to let like even something as simple as like what you like to watch on TV and for it to like become something different, or what you like to read, for it to you know, evolve and change over time, and even the way that you like to show up for people. And I think that's one of the beauties is like, if you're really feeling nourished by your relationship, you will have that element of freedom to be able to continue evolving. And just because you don't have the same tastes doesn't mean you're going to stop loving each other. I think it was one of the hardest journeys something as simple because in our relationship, you know, Sarah and I, we like had this long series of years where we really enjoyed moving lockstep with each other, just like we're eating the same foods, doing the same exercises, like you know, just like existing as similarly as possible. And that felt right for the time. But then we started learning that, oh, actually the diet that she needs needs to be drastically different from may own, and the exercise that she needs is also not the same. And now, like you know, we have learned the peculiarities that we need for the both of us to optimize and feel like our best version of ourselves, and it's not the same. And I think, honestly it's it was hard to accept in the beginning, but then I realized, oh, this is actually like us actively caring for each other is giving each other that freedom.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Eric, Is that really to me, it's a sign of very healthy love because from my perspective, you're not only getting the safety of commitment, right clear commitment towards each other, but because that is so firm and established, you have the freedom to explore, to explore your interests, to just go and you know, see what's out there in the world, and still be able to come back home and have that nourishment of your partnership there. And I think a lot of people get scared by the word freedom because you immediately think, oh, they're going to start sleeping with other people and dating other people. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the freedom to like let your preferences change, to let like even something as simple as like what you like to watch on TV and for it to like become something different, or what you like to read, for it to you know, evolve and change over time, and even the way that you like to show up for people. And I think that's one of the beauties is like, if you're really feeling nourished by your relationship, you will have that element of freedom to be able to continue evolving. And just because you don't have the same tastes doesn't mean you're going to stop loving each other. I think it was one of the hardest journeys something as simple because in our relationship, you know, Sarah and I, we like had this long series of years where we really enjoyed moving lockstep with each other, just like we're eating the same foods, doing the same exercises, like you know, just like existing as similarly as possible. And that felt right for the time. But then we started learning that, oh, actually the diet that she needs needs to be drastically different from may own, and the exercise that she needs is also not the same. And now, like you know, we have learned the peculiarities that we need for the both of us to optimize and feel like our best version of ourselves, and it's not the same. And I think, honestly it's it was hard to accept in the beginning, but then I realized, oh, this is actually like us actively caring for each other is giving each other that freedom.

So let's go back to that a little bit. We've kind of hit on a few of the different points, but I want to talk about sort of between freedom and connection. So you know, you differentiate between love and what we would call attachment based behaviors. So first let's lay out kind of what we mean by that, because I don't think we can have the right balance between freedom and connection if attachment is the thing that's running the.

So let's go back to that a little bit. We've kind of hit on a few of the different points, but I want to talk about sort of between freedom and connection. So you know, you differentiate between love and what we would call attachment based behaviors. So first let's lay out kind of what we mean by that, because I don't think we can have the right balance between freedom and connection if attachment is the thing that's running the.

Show totally, totally, and just to clarify to whomever's listening to, we're talking about not the Western psychology style of attachment that is quite popular nowadays, but we're talking about the old school type of attachment that the Buddha put forward, you know, is one of the causes of misery. And by attachment in the book, I'm talking about the craving for things to exist in a very particular way, you know, and that could mean like, you know, having your partner act in very specific ways, or having you know, all the things that you love always be there and you being you know, clinging for all the things that you really enjoy to always exist. The rigidity of attachment. It'll first manifest in your mind as a certain mental image you know, this is what I want to happen. But the way it manifests through your actions is that it emerges as control. You know, you're sort of like just really stiff about how you want things to exist. If you really want a relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, You've got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you're increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential for freedom.

Show totally, totally, and just to clarify to whomever's listening to, we're talking about not the Western psychology style of attachment that is quite popular nowadays, but we're talking about the old school type of attachment that the Buddha put forward, you know, is one of the causes of misery. And by attachment in the book, I'm talking about the craving for things to exist in a very particular way, you know, and that could mean like, you know, having your partner act in very specific ways, or having you know, all the things that you love always be there and you being you know, clinging for all the things that you really enjoy to always exist. The rigidity of attachment. It'll first manifest in your mind as a certain mental image you know, this is what I want to happen. But the way it manifests through your actions is that it emerges as control. You know, you're sort of like just really stiff about how you want things to exist. If you really want a relationship to be nourishing and happy and compassionate, You've got to really work on letting go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you're increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential for freedom.

Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net slash ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track. I want to go back to what you said there about we're talking about attachment in a classic Buddhist sense, often translated as craving is another word for it, And then saying, you know, we're not talking about Western attachment, but in a sense we are. I think in that if we talk about attachment styles, there's one style that I never get my terms right, but it's basically securely attached. That's the good one. And then there's I think avoidant and anxious attachment, and then my favorite, which is you do both you're completely confused, which is me like I just okay, that didn't quite work. I'll try the other one. Wait, that's not working. I'll try it like bounce back and forth like a I think they call it like, it's not a term confused. It's even better than that, because I do think that those styles that we're describing are what happens when we don't have the secure attachment. And it's one thing to say, like I want to give my partner all the freedom in the world, right, But like you said, that's really hard to do if you don't have some sort of secure attachment. But then ironically, it's very hard to have a true secure attachment when you're interested in controlling you're a partner, right, it can be this difficult gain because you're wanting to control your partner, because you're afraid they're going to move in a direction you don't want, and that very active then controlling is causing them not to be securely attached to you.

Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net slash ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track. I want to go back to what you said there about we're talking about attachment in a classic Buddhist sense, often translated as craving is another word for it, And then saying, you know, we're not talking about Western attachment, but in a sense we are. I think in that if we talk about attachment styles, there's one style that I never get my terms right, but it's basically securely attached. That's the good one. And then there's I think avoidant and anxious attachment, and then my favorite, which is you do both you're completely confused, which is me like I just okay, that didn't quite work. I'll try the other one. Wait, that's not working. I'll try it like bounce back and forth like a I think they call it like, it's not a term confused. It's even better than that, because I do think that those styles that we're describing are what happens when we don't have the secure attachment. And it's one thing to say, like I want to give my partner all the freedom in the world, right, But like you said, that's really hard to do if you don't have some sort of secure attachment. But then ironically, it's very hard to have a true secure attachment when you're interested in controlling you're a partner, right, it can be this difficult gain because you're wanting to control your partner, because you're afraid they're going to move in a direction you don't want, and that very active then controlling is causing them not to be securely attached to you.

And it's interesting because I think those frameworks are really helpful to people. But I'm one who you know, I honestly have an aversion to all labels, Like I feel like human beings they exist on such a wide spectrum that like one day I have secure attachments, another deck and I have anxious attachments, and it's just like you're just going to be changing all the time. So to me, it's like, how can I simplify my approach And instead of focusing on attachments and expectations, why not just fully vocalize how I like my happiness to be and see where we can make commitments to each other, you know, like if I can tell my wife, this is how like my happiness to be supported, and she says, oh, I can do X, Y and Z for you, Like this feels good to me. This is a way that I can try to show up for you. And from commitments can come a level of security that has nothing to do with you know, the coercion that sometimes happens from expectations or from attachments where it's like you're demanding someone to really exist in a particular way for you, and instead you're just saying, like, these are my needs, and this is how they might relate to, like my past traumas or how I've experienced life. And you know from how these breakups and you know these things that have happened that have really affected the way I show up now and how I'm currently working on them. But having things be clear and well informed between the two of you just really sets you up for success, because you know expectations and attachments, like you don't want things to be a mystery. You don't want to set up traps for your partner, you want clarity for them.

And it's interesting because I think those frameworks are really helpful to people. But I'm one who you know, I honestly have an aversion to all labels, Like I feel like human beings they exist on such a wide spectrum that like one day I have secure attachments, another deck and I have anxious attachments, and it's just like you're just going to be changing all the time. So to me, it's like, how can I simplify my approach And instead of focusing on attachments and expectations, why not just fully vocalize how I like my happiness to be and see where we can make commitments to each other, you know, like if I can tell my wife, this is how like my happiness to be supported, and she says, oh, I can do X, Y and Z for you, Like this feels good to me. This is a way that I can try to show up for you. And from commitments can come a level of security that has nothing to do with you know, the coercion that sometimes happens from expectations or from attachments where it's like you're demanding someone to really exist in a particular way for you, and instead you're just saying, like, these are my needs, and this is how they might relate to, like my past traumas or how I've experienced life. And you know from how these breakups and you know these things that have happened that have really affected the way I show up now and how I'm currently working on them. But having things be clear and well informed between the two of you just really sets you up for success, because you know expectations and attachments, like you don't want things to be a mystery. You don't want to set up traps for your partner, you want clarity for them.

Yep, I have a few thoughts there. I also am not a huge fan of labels. I think they serve a purpose for a certain period of time. I think they help us see patterns that we get stuck into where it's like, yes, okay, you know what, Like I don't want to say I am that, but you know what, I keep doing that, So there's a pattern there that's worth seeing. But they're only useful I think until they start limiting you. The question here around attachment. Is this all sounds good in the I tell my partner the way I would like them to support my happiness and they say yes, and then they support my happiness in that way, and everything's great, except when it doesn't quite work that way, meaning like these sort of nuanced things you get into in relationship, And I'm just going to pull out two cliches, right. One is one partner wants more sexual attachment than the other, more sexual contact than the other, like it's a connection point, right. The other would be somebody who says, like I'd like my partner to be more emotionally expressive right than they are, and those things are there's often still a tension there, and I think it gets tricky, at least I have found it tricky in my life to see when am I calmly advocating and stating what I would like in a relationship? When am I having an expectation and attachment or craving to things being a certain way? And it gets in that nuanced area where like you know, again, there's the perfect world where you know, we say what we want, we get it all the time. There's the other world where we say what we want we never get it. Those are pretty easy, right, But most of life happens in between those in relationships. So I'm curious how you think about particularly that, Like I'm stating what I want and my partner isn't quite able to meet me there. It seems to keep up for me. How do I let that go? I just think that's something I've been in and I've seen others in That just gets trickier.

Yep, I have a few thoughts there. I also am not a huge fan of labels. I think they serve a purpose for a certain period of time. I think they help us see patterns that we get stuck into where it's like, yes, okay, you know what, Like I don't want to say I am that, but you know what, I keep doing that, So there's a pattern there that's worth seeing. But they're only useful I think until they start limiting you. The question here around attachment. Is this all sounds good in the I tell my partner the way I would like them to support my happiness and they say yes, and then they support my happiness in that way, and everything's great, except when it doesn't quite work that way, meaning like these sort of nuanced things you get into in relationship, And I'm just going to pull out two cliches, right. One is one partner wants more sexual attachment than the other, more sexual contact than the other, like it's a connection point, right. The other would be somebody who says, like I'd like my partner to be more emotionally expressive right than they are, and those things are there's often still a tension there, and I think it gets tricky, at least I have found it tricky in my life to see when am I calmly advocating and stating what I would like in a relationship? When am I having an expectation and attachment or craving to things being a certain way? And it gets in that nuanced area where like you know, again, there's the perfect world where you know, we say what we want, we get it all the time. There's the other world where we say what we want we never get it. Those are pretty easy, right, But most of life happens in between those in relationships. So I'm curious how you think about particularly that, Like I'm stating what I want and my partner isn't quite able to meet me there. It seems to keep up for me. How do I let that go? I just think that's something I've been in and I've seen others in That just gets trickier.

Oh, totally, totally, and it gets very nuanced, and it's very situational to like the intrinsic qualities of your relationship, especially when you're hearing different people's advice, Like does it really match to your situation in the current conditions. I think a lot of times like one from my experience, like the arguments have decreased in terms of their level of tension because we're less attached, but often the arguments are the same. It's like we're still, like, you know, arguing about similar things over and over, and it's because we have deeply ingrained patterns, you know, like I'm more of a people person, Sarah's more reserved, Like I'm more forward. She's you know, a little less forward, and it's just like more calmly exists within herself, and there are these aspects and you know, character types that we have that we have to kind of work with. And what you end up finding is that you want to have a healthy balance of giving and receiving. And I think that's where like a lot of the tension gets resolved, where like if you feel like you're doing your part to care for your partner and you're doing your best to meet their needs and meet the way that they like to be supported. That doesn't mean you're going to get one hundred percent all the time, right, That just means that you're trying and you have some clarity around it. But then there are going to be some months that are way harder than others and you're not going to be able to show up as well. But I think having the sense of like, one, you're not always going to get what you want, like you're not like that's not what a relationship is means like you're joining this journey and this like in some ways it's a joyful challenge. They add so much beauty and harmony to your life and elevate your life, but it's also it's going to have its own ups and downs, and you're just never expecting your partner to be perfect. You're just expecting them to show up for you and have a degree of accountability when they make mistakes, you know, basically the simple accountability of apologizing and trying to change the behavior when something does go wrong. But I really think, like you know, you just can't expect things to always go your way, and if you do, then there's a problem there. There's something that you need to work on within yourself because your partner is not like they're a human being who also you know, is going to ebb and flow in their energy and they're not always going to be able to give at the same rate. So we need to be mindful of that, you know, is their balance with our giving and receiving.

Oh, totally, totally, and it gets very nuanced, and it's very situational to like the intrinsic qualities of your relationship, especially when you're hearing different people's advice, Like does it really match to your situation in the current conditions. I think a lot of times like one from my experience, like the arguments have decreased in terms of their level of tension because we're less attached, but often the arguments are the same. It's like we're still, like, you know, arguing about similar things over and over, and it's because we have deeply ingrained patterns, you know, like I'm more of a people person, Sarah's more reserved, Like I'm more forward. She's you know, a little less forward, and it's just like more calmly exists within herself, and there are these aspects and you know, character types that we have that we have to kind of work with. And what you end up finding is that you want to have a healthy balance of giving and receiving. And I think that's where like a lot of the tension gets resolved, where like if you feel like you're doing your part to care for your partner and you're doing your best to meet their needs and meet the way that they like to be supported. That doesn't mean you're going to get one hundred percent all the time, right, That just means that you're trying and you have some clarity around it. But then there are going to be some months that are way harder than others and you're not going to be able to show up as well. But I think having the sense of like, one, you're not always going to get what you want, like you're not like that's not what a relationship is means like you're joining this journey and this like in some ways it's a joyful challenge. They add so much beauty and harmony to your life and elevate your life, but it's also it's going to have its own ups and downs, and you're just never expecting your partner to be perfect. You're just expecting them to show up for you and have a degree of accountability when they make mistakes, you know, basically the simple accountability of apologizing and trying to change the behavior when something does go wrong. But I really think, like you know, you just can't expect things to always go your way, and if you do, then there's a problem there. There's something that you need to work on within yourself because your partner is not like they're a human being who also you know, is going to ebb and flow in their energy and they're not always going to be able to give at the same rate. So we need to be mindful of that, you know, is their balance with our giving and receiving.

Yeah. I have been in some distinctly unjoyful challenges also in the past. My current one is a joyful challenge. I've been in the unjoyful challenge. There's something you say, though, that I think that gets to the heart of this a little bit, and it is that you say attachment is a deep form of inflexibility. Yeah, And I really like that idea because I think when we're looking at a relationship as by talking about what we did earlier, right, sort of going up a level and looking at the thing as a whole. There are going to be places where perhaps I would like to be supported in that way there, but I'm not as much as I would. But you know these three other areas, boy, I'm really deeply supported over there. And when we become inflexible, which is like, no, it's got to be that way and this way. And you talk in the book about how it's good to recognize that, like you ask your partner how they want to be cared for, is good and I think that's important, and we'll talk about that. There's also something to be said to being flexible enough in certain cases that you let your partner care for you in the way that they like, you know what I mean, like the way they naturally show care and support. But I just love that idea. I love the idea of flexibility in general, and I love the idea of thinking of attachment as deep inflexibility.

Yeah. I have been in some distinctly unjoyful challenges also in the past. My current one is a joyful challenge. I've been in the unjoyful challenge. There's something you say, though, that I think that gets to the heart of this a little bit, and it is that you say attachment is a deep form of inflexibility. Yeah, And I really like that idea because I think when we're looking at a relationship as by talking about what we did earlier, right, sort of going up a level and looking at the thing as a whole. There are going to be places where perhaps I would like to be supported in that way there, but I'm not as much as I would. But you know these three other areas, boy, I'm really deeply supported over there. And when we become inflexible, which is like, no, it's got to be that way and this way. And you talk in the book about how it's good to recognize that, like you ask your partner how they want to be cared for, is good and I think that's important, and we'll talk about that. There's also something to be said to being flexible enough in certain cases that you let your partner care for you in the way that they like, you know what I mean, like the way they naturally show care and support. But I just love that idea. I love the idea of flexibility in general, and I love the idea of thinking of attachment as deep inflexibility.

Yeah, this all really stems from, you know, understanding how essential this law of impermanences to the entirety of the universe, Like literally, you know, at the atomic level, the biological level, the cosmological level, like everything is always changing. So what that's taught me is that I need to work with the universe and not against it. If everything is changing and flowing forward, what does that tell me? It means I need to embrace change. When change comes and I can't do anything about it, and my actions can't, you know, resolve things or change things in the way that I would prefer, then I have no other opportunity but to accept. Yeah, and it feels like this, you know, inflexibility. You're basically trying to move against the river of the universe where it's just flowing and changing and moving forward. So work with the universe, not against it.

Yeah, this all really stems from, you know, understanding how essential this law of impermanences to the entirety of the universe, Like literally, you know, at the atomic level, the biological level, the cosmological level, like everything is always changing. So what that's taught me is that I need to work with the universe and not against it. If everything is changing and flowing forward, what does that tell me? It means I need to embrace change. When change comes and I can't do anything about it, and my actions can't, you know, resolve things or change things in the way that I would prefer, then I have no other opportunity but to accept. Yeah, and it feels like this, you know, inflexibility. You're basically trying to move against the river of the universe where it's just flowing and changing and moving forward. So work with the universe, not against it.

You may know this being a poet in addition to the other things that you do. But I just had a conversation before this one with a mathematician and we were talking about calculus, and he then referenced the poet Adrian Rich, which I did not see coming out of a calculus conversation, but he talks about her poem which the famous line in it is the moment of Change is the only poem which just made me. As you were talking about sort of that dynamic nature of everything, I just think that's such a beautiful line.

You may know this being a poet in addition to the other things that you do. But I just had a conversation before this one with a mathematician and we were talking about calculus, and he then referenced the poet Adrian Rich, which I did not see coming out of a calculus conversation, but he talks about her poem which the famous line in it is the moment of Change is the only poem which just made me. As you were talking about sort of that dynamic nature of everything, I just think that's such a beautiful line.

It's so beautiful. I haven't heard that one.

It's so beautiful. I haven't heard that one.

It's literally like, when I think about what I'm learning in this lifetime, it's just that it's like I'm just learning to embrace change.

It's literally like, when I think about what I'm learning in this lifetime, it's just that it's like I'm just learning to embrace change.

Yeah, I don't know what the poem is called, but the Moment of Change is the only poem I would go look at it because it unfolds on a bunch of really sort of to me mind blowing levels about how she just keeps going like one level deeper, you know, into like this is the poem, but wait, no, that's the poem. No, not that you know. And it's sort of like when you start looking at like I know, you think about this stuff a lot, like the nature of self, you just keep going down another level and the bottom keeps falling. Yeah, and this poem kind of does that. So it was kind of amazing.

Yeah, I don't know what the poem is called, but the Moment of Change is the only poem I would go look at it because it unfolds on a bunch of really sort of to me mind blowing levels about how she just keeps going like one level deeper, you know, into like this is the poem, but wait, no, that's the poem. No, not that you know. And it's sort of like when you start looking at like I know, you think about this stuff a lot, like the nature of self, you just keep going down another level and the bottom keeps falling. Yeah, and this poem kind of does that. So it was kind of amazing.

I just wrote down the line, I'm gonna look it up after we finish our chat.

I just wrote down the line, I'm gonna look it up after we finish our chat.

Not being flexible and insisting on things being our way, that's a problem. I also know that I'm guilty of the other side of it, which is that I go, ah, you know what, I guess I'm not going to get that from them, And so I'm not going to say anything again. Why bring it up again? You know, I end up sort of foe accepting. Yeah, I end up sort of accepting on the outside, and yet inside there's still a little bit of churning going on. And I think I know for myself how to figure that out. But how do you think about that?

Not being flexible and insisting on things being our way, that's a problem. I also know that I'm guilty of the other side of it, which is that I go, ah, you know what, I guess I'm not going to get that from them, And so I'm not going to say anything again. Why bring it up again? You know, I end up sort of foe accepting. Yeah, I end up sort of accepting on the outside, and yet inside there's still a little bit of churning going on. And I think I know for myself how to figure that out. But how do you think about that?

I think that's a great point, And it's such a like an everyday point where you know, you may have requests of your partner, but they're not able to meet them, and you feel that sense of, you know, a small bit of agitation that you're not getting what you want. And I think what really helps is having your sort of own internal measuring system of like, let's say you've been traveling too much and let my wife know that my parents have been going through a hard time. It's really important to me to go visit my parents and would be more than happy if you come with me, But you don't have to. But you know, as long as i'm I have your support to like go and be with them and just letting let you know. And that's one example, just like but you're letting an individual know when something is really important and when you're really asking them for their support because a lot of times like do I really need to argue about this? Like do I really need to fight about this? Like is this this important to me?

I think that's a great point, And it's such a like an everyday point where you know, you may have requests of your partner, but they're not able to meet them, and you feel that sense of, you know, a small bit of agitation that you're not getting what you want. And I think what really helps is having your sort of own internal measuring system of like, let's say you've been traveling too much and let my wife know that my parents have been going through a hard time. It's really important to me to go visit my parents and would be more than happy if you come with me, But you don't have to. But you know, as long as i'm I have your support to like go and be with them and just letting let you know. And that's one example, just like but you're letting an individual know when something is really important and when you're really asking them for their support because a lot of times like do I really need to argue about this? Like do I really need to fight about this? Like is this this important to me?

Like?

Like?

Usually no, Like usually I can just let it go. But then there are other times where like something feels really critical and you have to just express it, vocalize, like communicate about it so that you're on the same page.

Usually no, Like usually I can just let it go. But then there are other times where like something feels really critical and you have to just express it, vocalize, like communicate about it so that you're on the same page.

I think what I figured out for myself is if I'm in a position where I'm like, Okay, I think I need to go accept this, and I go do the work of trying to accept it, and yet I can't. I don't like it keeps sort of churning inside me. Okay, that's a sign that it may not be an easy conversation. But we're gonna have to find a way to be able to talk about this, because as much as I want to just let this go, I don't seem to be completely able to. And sometimes that's our own work to do. But there are other times where I think it's not our work, where I think we can go you know what, for whatever reason for my makeup, this thing is genuinely really kind of a big deal. Yeah, And again for me, that usually comes after I will try to accept too hard, Like I mean, that's my nature, Like I'm going to go off and try and figure this out myself because I don't want to put my stuff on.

I think what I figured out for myself is if I'm in a position where I'm like, Okay, I think I need to go accept this, and I go do the work of trying to accept it, and yet I can't. I don't like it keeps sort of churning inside me. Okay, that's a sign that it may not be an easy conversation. But we're gonna have to find a way to be able to talk about this, because as much as I want to just let this go, I don't seem to be completely able to. And sometimes that's our own work to do. But there are other times where I think it's not our work, where I think we can go you know what, for whatever reason for my makeup, this thing is genuinely really kind of a big deal. Yeah, And again for me, that usually comes after I will try to accept too hard, Like I mean, that's my nature, Like I'm going to go off and try and figure this out myself because I don't want to put my stuff on.

Anybody else exactly.

Anybody else exactly.

Yeah, that's a big value of mine. But eventually I might go, well, you know what, like I'm in relationship, Like that's part of me in relationship totally.

Yeah, that's a big value of mine. But eventually I might go, well, you know what, like I'm in relationship, Like that's part of me in relationship totally.

And you know what's interesting building off of what you're saying, it's reminding me of something that I've been seeing sort of evolving in my relationship now where there are times where there's some agitation that lingers. There are so many situations that pop up that are not just like between the two of you, but how the two of you handle other situations that arise that are problems that the two of you need to solve together. And you know, it could be like a family member getting sick or you know, something happens. And there are times where I found myself, you know, letting my wife know, like, oh, I'm still agitated about one of these decisions that we made. I don't have an answer, but can we talk about it more? Yeah, I don't really know what we should do, but let's just talk about it more and in the process of like both of us sharing the way that we feel where it's not combative, it's just like, you know, like there's something here. It's quite nice because even if the decision doesn't change, there's still a greater opportunity for both of us to feel.

And you know what's interesting building off of what you're saying, it's reminding me of something that I've been seeing sort of evolving in my relationship now where there are times where there's some agitation that lingers. There are so many situations that pop up that are not just like between the two of you, but how the two of you handle other situations that arise that are problems that the two of you need to solve together. And you know, it could be like a family member getting sick or you know, something happens. And there are times where I found myself, you know, letting my wife know, like, oh, I'm still agitated about one of these decisions that we made. I don't have an answer, but can we talk about it more? Yeah, I don't really know what we should do, but let's just talk about it more and in the process of like both of us sharing the way that we feel where it's not combative, it's just like, you know, like there's something here. It's quite nice because even if the decision doesn't change, there's still a greater opportunity for both of us to feel.

Seen.

Seen.

I go back to something you said earlier that I wanted to touch on and we just kind of moved on from, but I thought was very well said, which was this idea of the same problems sometimes are there, but our level of emotional turmoil over them is lessened. Yeah, we keep coming sort of back to this same thing because it seems to be an area that we do have some degree of an incompatibility or some sort of thing that it doesn't line up, but it's sort of less important than it used to be, so it's not gone. And I often think about that being a version of that of like the metaphor of like a spiral staircase and growth. Like if you imagine like going up in a spiral staircase and there's a picture on the wall, like you keep coming back around to that picture, but ideally the next time around you see the picture from a slightly different angle. You're a little higher up and a little higher up.

I go back to something you said earlier that I wanted to touch on and we just kind of moved on from, but I thought was very well said, which was this idea of the same problems sometimes are there, but our level of emotional turmoil over them is lessened. Yeah, we keep coming sort of back to this same thing because it seems to be an area that we do have some degree of an incompatibility or some sort of thing that it doesn't line up, but it's sort of less important than it used to be, so it's not gone. And I often think about that being a version of that of like the metaphor of like a spiral staircase and growth. Like if you imagine like going up in a spiral staircase and there's a picture on the wall, like you keep coming back around to that picture, but ideally the next time around you see the picture from a slightly different angle. You're a little higher up and a little higher up.

You're really making me think too.

You're really making me think too.

Like my wife and I have this very simple like argument that you know, pops up every now and then, and it's so different in our character where I'm very touch oriented, like I need hugs from her. I need you know, kisses or even just like having like my arm on her leg or you know, just like some sort of touch, and she's much less. So she's very sort of like action oriented, you know, will care for you through through activities and through I don't know, moving things forward. And we joke, you know, like joke with her, and I'm like, oh, I'm touched sensitive, you know, like if you don't touch me, I get sensitive. And it's a common thing. But I think when the argument comes up, it just doesn't come up with that same intensity of you know, feeling uncared for or feeling unloved because I've learned more about her. I've learned that like, oh, actually, it's not that she doesn't care for me. It's just that she has particular ways that her conditioning shows care. And we're trying to meet each other in the middle. I'm trying to work on receiving the way that she likes to care for me because it's valuable, and like, I'm also learning from that and learning how to care in that way too, and she's doing vice versa, like you know, understanding the way I like to be cared for too. But it just feels like such a learning moment and the valve of tension is released because having spent all those years together, I just see more about her, like I've had more time to understand where she's coming from.