I think we have to be willing to trust that life is teaching us, and often it's through enduring and experiencing, suffering and difficulties that allows us to become much stronger.

I think we have to be willing to trust that life is teaching us, and often it's through enduring and experiencing, suffering and difficulties that allows us to become much stronger.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep them selves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep them selves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

What does it take to free not just your body but your mind, And what can a nineteenth century freedom fighter teach us about resilience Today, as part of Women's History Month, we're diving into the extraordinary life and spiritual wisdom of Harriet Tubman, not just as a conductor on the Underground Railroad, but as a guide for how we break free from our own inner prisons. My guest today's Springwasham, is a Buddhist teacher and healer who explores the intersection of spirituality, justice, and personal transformation. In this episode, we talk about courage, healing from hardship, and why we all need a north Star to follow. By the end, you might just walk away seeing struggle and yourself a little bit differently. Stick around. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Spring, Welcome to the show.

What does it take to free not just your body but your mind, And what can a nineteenth century freedom fighter teach us about resilience Today, as part of Women's History Month, we're diving into the extraordinary life and spiritual wisdom of Harriet Tubman, not just as a conductor on the Underground Railroad, but as a guide for how we break free from our own inner prisons. My guest today's Springwasham, is a Buddhist teacher and healer who explores the intersection of spirituality, justice, and personal transformation. In this episode, we talk about courage, healing from hardship, and why we all need a north Star to follow. By the end, you might just walk away seeing struggle and yourself a little bit differently. Stick around. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Spring, Welcome to the show.

Oh thank you, Eric, I'm so happy to be back with you.

Oh thank you, Eric, I'm so happy to be back with you.

Yeah, third time, third time. So I love when I can connect with guests multiple times over the years. It's a warm feeling I have. And I love to see how people's work evolves and they're thinking changes and grows. And we're going to be discussing your latest book called The Spirit of Harriet Tubman, Awakening from the Underground. But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with the Parable of the Wolves. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, third time, third time. So I love when I can connect with guests multiple times over the years. It's a warm feeling I have. And I love to see how people's work evolves and they're thinking changes and grows. And we're going to be discussing your latest book called The Spirit of Harriet Tubman, Awakening from the Underground. But before we do that, we'll start, like we always do, with the Parable of the Wolves. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this topic last night. I was teaching an online class at Spirit Rock, where I'm on the Teacher's Council Meditation community in California, and I was talking about the stories of the great leaders throughout time. I was talking about the body Satphas, and I was talking about Harriet Tubman, and I was talking about how important it is for us to tell these stories. We must tell the stories of these beautiful heroes over and over from every tradition, those who represent love and bravery and courage and have great heart. We can't forget them right now, and particularly in the face of so much violence and so much greed and hatred and delusion. These stories are so important of people who fed the good Wolf and led others. And so for me right now, these stories that we tell that we must remember and share, they're very important.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this topic last night. I was teaching an online class at Spirit Rock, where I'm on the Teacher's Council Meditation community in California, and I was talking about the stories of the great leaders throughout time. I was talking about the body Satphas, and I was talking about Harriet Tubman, and I was talking about how important it is for us to tell these stories. We must tell the stories of these beautiful heroes over and over from every tradition, those who represent love and bravery and courage and have great heart. We can't forget them right now, and particularly in the face of so much violence and so much greed and hatred and delusion. These stories are so important of people who fed the good Wolf and led others. And so for me right now, these stories that we tell that we must remember and share, they're very important.

Yeah, they are. As you were talking, it made me think of an exercise that I've done with people before. I didn't make it up. It was taught to me, but I don't remember by who. But it's in trying to figure out what your values are, what's important to you. One way of doing it is to look at somebody you really admire, and what is it about that person that you admire so much that tells you something about what you really value, you know, and it points a direction for you to go. So I agree. I think looking at these people who are so extraordinary, Harriet Tubman being an exceptional example of that, is a really powerful pointer to us in pointing the direction towards who we.

Yeah, they are. As you were talking, it made me think of an exercise that I've done with people before. I didn't make it up. It was taught to me, but I don't remember by who. But it's in trying to figure out what your values are, what's important to you. One way of doing it is to look at somebody you really admire, and what is it about that person that you admire so much that tells you something about what you really value, you know, and it points a direction for you to go. So I agree. I think looking at these people who are so extraordinary, Harriet Tubman being an exceptional example of that, is a really powerful pointer to us in pointing the direction towards who we.

Want to be exactly. And the stories from all the traditions our mythology are stories of all the heroes and the heroines, and these are stories that we love to tell. As a Buddhist teacher, we tell so many. We're storytellers and in Romey story and poems from this to that, and we gather and we tell stories from the past and stories about how to live with more joy and compassion. And you know, that's all we're doing is telling stories, our stories, our personal stories. And so I think it's a good time to be remembering the stories of the goodness of the human heart right now.

Want to be exactly. And the stories from all the traditions our mythology are stories of all the heroes and the heroines, and these are stories that we love to tell. As a Buddhist teacher, we tell so many. We're storytellers and in Romey story and poems from this to that, and we gather and we tell stories from the past and stories about how to live with more joy and compassion. And you know, that's all we're doing is telling stories, our stories, our personal stories. And so I think it's a good time to be remembering the stories of the goodness of the human heart right now.

Yeah, it's funny because we look at these stories, and any good story, there is challenge, there is conflict, there is overcoming and most of the time we don't want our stories to look anything like that, right, we want just a story of everything being good. But A does it make for a very good story? B isn't the way the world works? And C isn't you know really how we grow in life?

Yeah, it's funny because we look at these stories, and any good story, there is challenge, there is conflict, there is overcoming and most of the time we don't want our stories to look anything like that, right, we want just a story of everything being good. But A does it make for a very good story? B isn't the way the world works? And C isn't you know really how we grow in life?

Yeah, I mean we all know that we grow through challenge, but we don't like it. You know. We do have this idea of that we're on this something, this elevator, our awakening, goes straight up one floor than the next floor, and we just go higher and higher, faster and faster. Well it's really not like that. Sometimes you go straight down to the basement and the hell realm for a while, and then here and there and then. But I think we have to be willing to trust that life is teaching us and often it's through enduring and experiencing suffering and difficulties that allows us to become much stronger. It allows us to awaken qualities that we didn't know we had. You need some struggle in this life, and nobody has struggle free. Let me just say that, you know, nobody gets out of this without some scratches and hardship, no matter who you are. But I think it's a time that we have to kind of embrace this idea that, yeah, there will be hardships, there will be the ten thousand sorrows, and if we can lean into them as seeing them as valuable, we'll learn and will be resilient in a different way.

Yeah, I mean we all know that we grow through challenge, but we don't like it. You know. We do have this idea of that we're on this something, this elevator, our awakening, goes straight up one floor than the next floor, and we just go higher and higher, faster and faster. Well it's really not like that. Sometimes you go straight down to the basement and the hell realm for a while, and then here and there and then. But I think we have to be willing to trust that life is teaching us and often it's through enduring and experiencing suffering and difficulties that allows us to become much stronger. It allows us to awaken qualities that we didn't know we had. You need some struggle in this life, and nobody has struggle free. Let me just say that, you know, nobody gets out of this without some scratches and hardship, no matter who you are. But I think it's a time that we have to kind of embrace this idea that, yeah, there will be hardships, there will be the ten thousand sorrows, and if we can lean into them as seeing them as valuable, we'll learn and will be resilient in a different way.

Let me ask you a question about that, because this has been on my mind a lot lately. We interviewed a woman you may know her. Her name's doctor Joan Katchatori. She focuses a lot on traumatic grief. A lot of the work you've done, you know, focuses on trauma and healing of trauma, and so on one hand, we have this idea that, yeah, it is through struggle and difficulty that we transform and we grow, and yet oftentimes it's the very worst thing to say to somebody who's in the middle of deep struggle and difficulty or trauma, like it's a growth opportunity, right, Like, you know, it makes you want to stab somebody. So I'm curious for you and your own life as you're going through challenges. How do you navigate that? Maybe I want to keep one eye on the fact that there is growth here in this, but I also want to allow myself to be where I'm at and experience the emotion and not try and spiritually bypass it.

Let me ask you a question about that, because this has been on my mind a lot lately. We interviewed a woman you may know her. Her name's doctor Joan Katchatori. She focuses a lot on traumatic grief. A lot of the work you've done, you know, focuses on trauma and healing of trauma, and so on one hand, we have this idea that, yeah, it is through struggle and difficulty that we transform and we grow, and yet oftentimes it's the very worst thing to say to somebody who's in the middle of deep struggle and difficulty or trauma, like it's a growth opportunity, right, Like, you know, it makes you want to stab somebody. So I'm curious for you and your own life as you're going through challenges. How do you navigate that? Maybe I want to keep one eye on the fact that there is growth here in this, but I also want to allow myself to be where I'm at and experience the emotion and not try and spiritually bypass it.

Right, Well, I think you do both. You know. When I'm going through difficulties and as we were having our conversation before we started taping, I went through this period of tremendous suffering. I got this jungle disease, and I thought it was going to die from the treatment and all these difficulties. And what I realized is that I knew in the moment that this might be the hardest thing I'm facing. It was really like a life or death shamanically at least, I felt like dark night of the soul. But deep down I did know that this is going to be of benefit. I knew it was impermanent, and so, yeah, it doesn't help when someone's in their darkest hour to go, hey, you're gonna love this in six months. You know. No, I just show up compassionately. But I do remind people of their strength and moments of hardship. I do remind them that, you know, this is why we remind ourselves by telling stories of those who have endured. This is why we take comfort and oh, if somebody else has been through this experience and let's talk about the story of how they did it, that does give us a kind of comfort, a compassion. I do recognize in the moment when we're experiencing something, there's the belief that it'll never end and I'll never survive and I'll be like this forever. The ego mind tells us that absolutely. But then you know, that's what I love about our hearts is that they recover. Yeah, we recover. Let us take joy in that we recover and we go on, you know, to a new day. There is something about that deeper truth.

Right, Well, I think you do both. You know. When I'm going through difficulties and as we were having our conversation before we started taping, I went through this period of tremendous suffering. I got this jungle disease, and I thought it was going to die from the treatment and all these difficulties. And what I realized is that I knew in the moment that this might be the hardest thing I'm facing. It was really like a life or death shamanically at least, I felt like dark night of the soul. But deep down I did know that this is going to be of benefit. I knew it was impermanent, and so, yeah, it doesn't help when someone's in their darkest hour to go, hey, you're gonna love this in six months. You know. No, I just show up compassionately. But I do remind people of their strength and moments of hardship. I do remind them that, you know, this is why we remind ourselves by telling stories of those who have endured. This is why we take comfort and oh, if somebody else has been through this experience and let's talk about the story of how they did it, that does give us a kind of comfort, a compassion. I do recognize in the moment when we're experiencing something, there's the belief that it'll never end and I'll never survive and I'll be like this forever. The ego mind tells us that absolutely. But then you know, that's what I love about our hearts is that they recover. Yeah, we recover. Let us take joy in that we recover and we go on, you know, to a new day. There is something about that deeper truth.

Yeah, I love that idea of reminding people of their strength and reminding ourselves of our own strength is really important. And our ability to cope into weather storms without minimizing the real pain and difficulty, but also you know, remembering exactly what you said, our strength, our ability to cope, and that we do indeed recover. It's one of the great human attributes is we are remarkably resilient.

Yeah, I love that idea of reminding people of their strength and reminding ourselves of our own strength is really important. And our ability to cope into weather storms without minimizing the real pain and difficulty, but also you know, remembering exactly what you said, our strength, our ability to cope, and that we do indeed recover. It's one of the great human attributes is we are remarkably resilient.

Yes, especially if you've ever had a broken heart or you know, that's a place where you can really see, you can feel devastated, and then you know, six months later or even shorter, you're back. You know, and you thought I thought I was going to die of this, and you're like, wow, no, it's just it hurts, but I'm good. I'm good, you know. And I think it's important for us to remind ourselves that when we're in the grip of something, it's not to negate it. It's to say, yes, this is really hard, this is really painful, I'm challenged, I'm at the edge. This is almost more than I can bear. And we meet people there and we were with them. I'm with myself in those moments, so we don't negate what's happening. We're always opening to that depth with them.

Yes, especially if you've ever had a broken heart or you know, that's a place where you can really see, you can feel devastated, and then you know, six months later or even shorter, you're back. You know, and you thought I thought I was going to die of this, and you're like, wow, no, it's just it hurts, but I'm good. I'm good, you know. And I think it's important for us to remind ourselves that when we're in the grip of something, it's not to negate it. It's to say, yes, this is really hard, this is really painful, I'm challenged, I'm at the edge. This is almost more than I can bear. And we meet people there and we were with them. I'm with myself in those moments, so we don't negate what's happening. We're always opening to that depth with them.

Yeah, we're going to get into the book in the second but I want to go a little bit more into the Peru situation. So you have led retreats in Peru. How would you describe plant medicine retreats in Peru? Would that be an accurate representation?

Yeah, we're going to get into the book in the second but I want to go a little bit more into the Peru situation. So you have led retreats in Peru. How would you describe plant medicine retreats in Peru? Would that be an accurate representation?

Yeah. As a Buddhist teacher, I created an organization that we do these fourteen day journeys where we blend Buddhist practice, embodiment practice, and plant based medicine in South America.

Yeah. As a Buddhist teacher, I created an organization that we do these fourteen day journeys where we blend Buddhist practice, embodiment practice, and plant based medicine in South America.

So you've been doing that for a while and then you got this jungle based disease that made you really really sick, and then the treatment made you even sicker. I'm curious were you at a crossroads about going back and continuing to do that, because that's the sort of story that I hear and I'm like, Okay, well that's why I'm not going to the jungles of Peru. Now. You know, you might be much braver than I am, but I'm just curious, like, how did you sort of think through that and go you know what, I'm assuming you got to some internal calculus that said the work I'm doing down here and the benefit I get outweighs whatever this risk and fear is. Can you sort of share how you got through that for yourself?

So you've been doing that for a while and then you got this jungle based disease that made you really really sick, and then the treatment made you even sicker. I'm curious were you at a crossroads about going back and continuing to do that, because that's the sort of story that I hear and I'm like, Okay, well that's why I'm not going to the jungles of Peru. Now. You know, you might be much braver than I am, but I'm just curious, like, how did you sort of think through that and go you know what, I'm assuming you got to some internal calculus that said the work I'm doing down here and the benefit I get outweighs whatever this risk and fear is. Can you sort of share how you got through that for yourself?

Well, the whole thing was very surprising. I've been going to Peru two thousand and seven. I even lived in the Upper Amazon in a jungle lodge with no electricity for a year. I was fine. I never even had much of a fever. I had always found Peru in the jungle to be my power spot, you know. I went there and I was restored, I was renewed, I was I loved Peru. I loved the jungle there, And yeah, I got bit by this bug and it was rare and contracted. This jungle disease as like a flesh eating disease. Literally starts to go into your body and yeah, it takes chunks out.

Well, the whole thing was very surprising. I've been going to Peru two thousand and seven. I even lived in the Upper Amazon in a jungle lodge with no electricity for a year. I was fine. I never even had much of a fever. I had always found Peru in the jungle to be my power spot, you know. I went there and I was restored, I was renewed, I was I loved Peru. I loved the jungle there, And yeah, I got bit by this bug and it was rare and contracted. This jungle disease as like a flesh eating disease. Literally starts to go into your body and yeah, it takes chunks out.

Yeah that's terrifying.

Yeah that's terrifying.

Oh yeah, and if you don't cure it, it goes into your organs and it's fatal and it creates all this havoc. And so then you have to do the treatment. But the treatment is like chemotherapy. You have to go many days and endure this, you know, almost the same kind of medicines that are in cancer treatments, and it's really toxic and dangerous. So you have to often be in a hospital where they can on it to your organs. Why you get this IV for hours of this toxic medicine and I have a severe allergic reaction to that. But it did give me a breakthrough. I didn't leave Peru and now I'm based in Costa Rica. I was already kind of thinking of making radical changes. So that did wake me up. You know, when you're lying there and you think you're going to die, everything comes into kind of this clarity. You know, you're like, okay, Universe, you know I'm here, I'm paying attention. It does put a stop to things, and I think now it went from being my apocalypse. Twenty twenty one was just brutal for me. It was just everything dismantled. I mean it was wow, yeah, battles to being this breakthrough year that opened my heart. And I'm not just saying that to be cheesy teacher. It really did. The worst thing became the best thing because I I grew. I changed in a good way from that experience.

Oh yeah, and if you don't cure it, it goes into your organs and it's fatal and it creates all this havoc. And so then you have to do the treatment. But the treatment is like chemotherapy. You have to go many days and endure this, you know, almost the same kind of medicines that are in cancer treatments, and it's really toxic and dangerous. So you have to often be in a hospital where they can on it to your organs. Why you get this IV for hours of this toxic medicine and I have a severe allergic reaction to that. But it did give me a breakthrough. I didn't leave Peru and now I'm based in Costa Rica. I was already kind of thinking of making radical changes. So that did wake me up. You know, when you're lying there and you think you're going to die, everything comes into kind of this clarity. You know, you're like, okay, Universe, you know I'm here, I'm paying attention. It does put a stop to things, and I think now it went from being my apocalypse. Twenty twenty one was just brutal for me. It was just everything dismantled. I mean it was wow, yeah, battles to being this breakthrough year that opened my heart. And I'm not just saying that to be cheesy teacher. It really did. The worst thing became the best thing because I I grew. I changed in a good way from that experience.

Yeah. I love how open you are in your writings about current struggles that you have or very recent struggles, because there is a tendency. I mean, I know I have this tendency to talk about a struggle from fifteen years ago and how all my inner work has transcended and overcome and all this I love teachers who are really open about like yeah, and you know what, just last year I had like three really crappy months, you know, because I think it shows the truth of what the spiritual journey is like.

Yeah. I love how open you are in your writings about current struggles that you have or very recent struggles, because there is a tendency. I mean, I know I have this tendency to talk about a struggle from fifteen years ago and how all my inner work has transcended and overcome and all this I love teachers who are really open about like yeah, and you know what, just last year I had like three really crappy months, you know, because I think it shows the truth of what the spiritual journey is like.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, as teachers, I'm also forever a student. Yes, I don't tell my students. I don't tell people I work with. I'm awakened, I'm on the path, I'm walking. We're together, We're side by side. And that's just always how I have felt. I have never tried to put myself above others. I'm struggling. There's days that are great, days that are hard. I'm doing the practices I talk about. I'm not just advising them, you know. I'm like, you know, so I like to talk about what's real and what's authentic, just the human being we all are.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, as teachers, I'm also forever a student. Yes, I don't tell my students. I don't tell people I work with. I'm awakened, I'm on the path, I'm walking. We're together, We're side by side. And that's just always how I have felt. I have never tried to put myself above others. I'm struggling. There's days that are great, days that are hard. I'm doing the practices I talk about. I'm not just advising them, you know. I'm like, you know, so I like to talk about what's real and what's authentic, just the human being we all are.

Yeah, let's turn our attention now to your new book. It's called The Spirit of Harriet Tubman Awakening from the Underground. How did that book come about?

Yeah, let's turn our attention now to your new book. It's called The Spirit of Harriet Tubman Awakening from the Underground. How did that book come about?

Well, the book was a shock to me. You know, I had always admired Harriet Tubman, but I wasn't like a Harriet Tubman fanatic who doesn't love Harriet Tubman every year they pull out Harriet Tubman's picture and story and we be like, yay, Harriet, Yeah, like everybody Black History Month. I would learn a few facts that I didn't know, and I watched the movie in twenty nineteen, big Hollywood movie that came out, and again this great admiration. But this relationship that happened was as big as shock to me as anyone. I mean, I wasn't expecting this, and I could say the spirit of Harriet Tubman began appearing in my consciousness. It was May of twenty twenty. It was a week before George Floyd was murdered. For those of you, you know, this whole case of police brutality is everywhere again right now because of all these recent murders. But this was in the quarantine at that moment, in the quarantine where it was just so hard right the whole world was going into lockdown, and there was something I think in the summer of twenty twenty that it feels like the tectonic plates underneath our feet were quaking. There was a crack I feel in the matrix, and I felt like it was a crack of compassion that started to emerge in consciousness, through the violence, through the chaos, through the pandemic, and I think Harriet, through that crack, just appeared in a dream. And I write about this in the first chapter. I read through the book chronically what happened in this real language as clearly and honestly as I can articulate. Late like, it's still a mystery how this is happening, how an ancestor can come and begin to share ideas and thoughts and feelings. It's not something that has ever happened to me before. So when Harriet appeared in this nightmarish dream and I was running from my life, and I was holding on to something, and all I remember was my hands burning, and it was the back of Harriet Tubman's dress, and I remember going, what, but then feeling relieved, like, yes, Harriet understands these problems we're having. Harriet has been here before, and this is the right person who can help me. And I remember there was this great relief, And from there it just ticks on a life of its own. The whole journey, which I share about very clearly in each chapter, how it led up to the finishing the book.

Well, the book was a shock to me. You know, I had always admired Harriet Tubman, but I wasn't like a Harriet Tubman fanatic who doesn't love Harriet Tubman every year they pull out Harriet Tubman's picture and story and we be like, yay, Harriet, Yeah, like everybody Black History Month. I would learn a few facts that I didn't know, and I watched the movie in twenty nineteen, big Hollywood movie that came out, and again this great admiration. But this relationship that happened was as big as shock to me as anyone. I mean, I wasn't expecting this, and I could say the spirit of Harriet Tubman began appearing in my consciousness. It was May of twenty twenty. It was a week before George Floyd was murdered. For those of you, you know, this whole case of police brutality is everywhere again right now because of all these recent murders. But this was in the quarantine at that moment, in the quarantine where it was just so hard right the whole world was going into lockdown, and there was something I think in the summer of twenty twenty that it feels like the tectonic plates underneath our feet were quaking. There was a crack I feel in the matrix, and I felt like it was a crack of compassion that started to emerge in consciousness, through the violence, through the chaos, through the pandemic, and I think Harriet, through that crack, just appeared in a dream. And I write about this in the first chapter. I read through the book chronically what happened in this real language as clearly and honestly as I can articulate. Late like, it's still a mystery how this is happening, how an ancestor can come and begin to share ideas and thoughts and feelings. It's not something that has ever happened to me before. So when Harriet appeared in this nightmarish dream and I was running from my life, and I was holding on to something, and all I remember was my hands burning, and it was the back of Harriet Tubman's dress, and I remember going, what, but then feeling relieved, like, yes, Harriet understands these problems we're having. Harriet has been here before, and this is the right person who can help me. And I remember there was this great relief, And from there it just ticks on a life of its own. The whole journey, which I share about very clearly in each chapter, how it led up to the finishing the book.

Yeah, and so you have a dream about Harriet Tubman. You become a little more interested. You start this Church of Harriet Tubman, and it's enormously well received and it's a beautiful and joyous and vibrant thing. Talk to me about the journey from sort of where that is to starting the book, and what sort of things were happening for you.

Yeah, and so you have a dream about Harriet Tubman. You become a little more interested. You start this Church of Harriet Tubman, and it's enormously well received and it's a beautiful and joyous and vibrant thing. Talk to me about the journey from sort of where that is to starting the book, and what sort of things were happening for you.

Well during that time where you know, the first dream, and then what was happening in society. I started feeling Harry Tubman around me all the time. I started thinking about the name would come. I started doing research and I just thought, well, maybe other people are having this experience with Harry Tubman. I'll put on a zoom class. That's what everybody was doing, right. I was like, okay, let's do the Zoom class. And then the class, you know, went viral. Is started out as just a five week class actually, and it was the Dharma of Harriet Tubman. And unbeknownst to me, in that sea of faces, you know, all those faces in the Zoom rooms, my publisher, Patty Gift from hey House, the vice president, was taking the five course. I didn't know. They just signed up and so contacted me during that time and said, you have to write a book about this. You had to write a book about Harriet Tubman, and I obviously felt completely inadequate. I was like, what are you crazy. I'm not a historian. I didn't study African American history. This is way too much, is Harriet Tubman? I know I write spiritual books. I don't want to write a historical book. This is way no, no, no, I'm not the right person call this person called it. You know, I was preferring other people. I didn't want to take on that. But that's when Harriet kind of appeared. Shortly after that, I said, well, I'll wait for a sign, but I'm gonna know this is way too deep, way too complex. I can't. And then Harriet Tubman's spirit began to appear in one particular night and a very unmistakable experience. I write in the second chapter, she gives me the task. He shows me, Oh, no, you aren't supposed to write this book, and you agreed to this a long time ago. And it was like, what you know? And so I don't call the book channeling. That word connotes if I'm going to sit here with you, Eric, and you're gonna say, let me talk to Harriet, and I go Harriet Tevin has speaking. Now you know what this is not what it is. This is a conversation with an ancestor, and it doesn't just come on. This is a deep process. This is something that I call sessions, and it's like an agreed upon moment too for the greater good. And the stories that Harriet wanted me to help convey was the stories about her heart, her heart message. We know the facts, we know that she was a warrior, we know all these things, but we often don't recognize Harriet as a great teacher. And there's like more to the story of this being than just the slave woman who led some missions and freed some people. Oh, it's deeper than that. There's a very profound spirit to this ancestor. And that's what my role, my real task is to convey, to have a different conversation about this being, this ancestor, who I will say, doesn't just belong to me. This is a primordial ancestor. She's your ancestors. Yes, she happens to be African American and I'm African American. Yes, but this is beyond colored. This goes beyond She's everyone's ancestor. So I think i'd like to put it in that context because it goes beyond these labels and boxes of gender, color, religion, class. It's beyond that.

Well during that time where you know, the first dream, and then what was happening in society. I started feeling Harry Tubman around me all the time. I started thinking about the name would come. I started doing research and I just thought, well, maybe other people are having this experience with Harry Tubman. I'll put on a zoom class. That's what everybody was doing, right. I was like, okay, let's do the Zoom class. And then the class, you know, went viral. Is started out as just a five week class actually, and it was the Dharma of Harriet Tubman. And unbeknownst to me, in that sea of faces, you know, all those faces in the Zoom rooms, my publisher, Patty Gift from hey House, the vice president, was taking the five course. I didn't know. They just signed up and so contacted me during that time and said, you have to write a book about this. You had to write a book about Harriet Tubman, and I obviously felt completely inadequate. I was like, what are you crazy. I'm not a historian. I didn't study African American history. This is way too much, is Harriet Tubman? I know I write spiritual books. I don't want to write a historical book. This is way no, no, no, I'm not the right person call this person called it. You know, I was preferring other people. I didn't want to take on that. But that's when Harriet kind of appeared. Shortly after that, I said, well, I'll wait for a sign, but I'm gonna know this is way too deep, way too complex. I can't. And then Harriet Tubman's spirit began to appear in one particular night and a very unmistakable experience. I write in the second chapter, she gives me the task. He shows me, Oh, no, you aren't supposed to write this book, and you agreed to this a long time ago. And it was like, what you know? And so I don't call the book channeling. That word connotes if I'm going to sit here with you, Eric, and you're gonna say, let me talk to Harriet, and I go Harriet Tevin has speaking. Now you know what this is not what it is. This is a conversation with an ancestor, and it doesn't just come on. This is a deep process. This is something that I call sessions, and it's like an agreed upon moment too for the greater good. And the stories that Harriet wanted me to help convey was the stories about her heart, her heart message. We know the facts, we know that she was a warrior, we know all these things, but we often don't recognize Harriet as a great teacher. And there's like more to the story of this being than just the slave woman who led some missions and freed some people. Oh, it's deeper than that. There's a very profound spirit to this ancestor. And that's what my role, my real task is to convey, to have a different conversation about this being, this ancestor, who I will say, doesn't just belong to me. This is a primordial ancestor. She's your ancestors. Yes, she happens to be African American and I'm African American. Yes, but this is beyond colored. This goes beyond She's everyone's ancestor. So I think i'd like to put it in that context because it goes beyond these labels and boxes of gender, color, religion, class. It's beyond that.

I want to get to that inner message of Harriet Tubman, what came to you and your interpretation of it. But I think it would be helpful if maybe we do a brief sketch of her life. You hear it, but I don't know that everybody remembers. There are parts of her story. I did remember as I was kind of going through your book, So maybe we could just spend a minute and you could just lead us through like a several minute sort of arc of her life and what she did, just so that everybody has that picture before we go into some of the underlying pieces.

I want to get to that inner message of Harriet Tubman, what came to you and your interpretation of it. But I think it would be helpful if maybe we do a brief sketch of her life. You hear it, but I don't know that everybody remembers. There are parts of her story. I did remember as I was kind of going through your book, So maybe we could just spend a minute and you could just lead us through like a several minute sort of arc of her life and what she did, just so that everybody has that picture before we go into some of the underlying pieces.

Sure, so when we talk about Harriet Tubman's life, and another reason that I was inspired about this book was to tell the real story of her life. So there's these messages, that conversations, and they're all about each stage of her life right where we talk about one thing. So it's all very historically accurate. Step by step, the dates, the times, everything is very historically accurate. So we know Harrit Tubman was born around eighteen twenty to eighteen twenty five somewhere in there, and her grandmother came over on a slave ship, and then her mother was born and started kind of Harriet Tubman's lineage. Harriet was born and was born enslaved in Maryland and was on a big timber plantation and her whole family was there, and you know, her childhood was just brutal. I mean, it's all of the things that you've see on TV shows and specials, just beatings and the abuse and all of that. Harriet endured a tremendous amount of child abuse and being lent out an enslaved child that no one cared about, and was subject to all of that and felt very very passionate that she should be free, right, very much, always leaning into that. And then when Harriet was maybe somewhere between ten to thirteen. We don't know that much about Harry's exact age because nothing was documented when slaves were born. There was no birth certificates or you know, we don't know times and all of that, so there's always a little mystery about her exact date of birth. But she had this head injury. She went to a store to get some items. In that moment, she saw a slave running into the store being chased by an overseer, somebody who oversees the plantations and keeps everyone in a very brutal working condition there. And he asked her to hold down the slaves. She denied immediately, no, I will not hold him down, so you can beat him. And he threw a weight that was on the counter and hit her in the head. I think this is the first significant thing. There's like some key things about her life, born into slavery, her whole family, many siblings. Then she gets this head injury. And the head injury, they thought she would die, right They carried her back to her house and for two days she went in and out of consciousness. But Harriet says that was the beginning of an awakening and this incredible connection to the spirit world. It was like something open, and she journeyed and saw herself and talked about throughout her whole life, this conversation with the divine. She became clairvoyant. She had this awakening that happened there. So then she goes on to continue living as a slave, but runs away when she's in her twenties twenty six, somewhere around there twenty seven, finally runs away makes it alone. Nobody knew what to make of Harriet Tubman because of the injuries. She had narcolepsy, seizures, and she would just pass out at any moment in the middle of a conversation, just fall into a sleep, stayed. They couldn't never wake her up, no matter what they did, but when she did wake up, she would have these stories, and they just thought, this lady is crazy. She was seeing visions of the future and her role and being a conductor and being free, and everyone thought she was just crazy. And Harriet, you know, was one hundred pounds five feet tall. This was no large person, right, so they thought this crazy woman. But Harriet's really enough, made her way on her own all the way to Philadelphia, walked one hundred and twenty miles to get there, and then in the Abolitionist Society, the Anti Slavery Society, and became a leader. And even though she was wanted fugitive began speaking out right away when she got to Philadelphia and she was wanted, and she began her first mission by rescuing a niece and her two children that were on the auction blocks going to be sold away from the farm that she grew up on and that led her into rescuing people. And then she became one of the most famous conductors and her nickname was Moses after she conducted on the railroad for ten years and rescued all of her family members, including her parents in a very daring rescue. As an underground operative. She then became involved and was recruited into the Civil War. And this is a part of the story that many people don't know about. And also this has been kind of suppressed that Harriet was a great war hero and it was extremely patriotic. Was a nurse. She had this match ability with making plant concoctions that cured dysentery. She had some gift with it, and she was saving countless lives with her medicine, brews and her tinctures. But also she was recruited to be a spy for the Union Army and she was the first woman in history to lead, plan and execute her own military raids with her own troop of black soldiers and led very amazing successful attacks on the Confederate stronghold places and rescuing people. And I mean, who does this right.

Sure, so when we talk about Harriet Tubman's life, and another reason that I was inspired about this book was to tell the real story of her life. So there's these messages, that conversations, and they're all about each stage of her life right where we talk about one thing. So it's all very historically accurate. Step by step, the dates, the times, everything is very historically accurate. So we know Harrit Tubman was born around eighteen twenty to eighteen twenty five somewhere in there, and her grandmother came over on a slave ship, and then her mother was born and started kind of Harriet Tubman's lineage. Harriet was born and was born enslaved in Maryland and was on a big timber plantation and her whole family was there, and you know, her childhood was just brutal. I mean, it's all of the things that you've see on TV shows and specials, just beatings and the abuse and all of that. Harriet endured a tremendous amount of child abuse and being lent out an enslaved child that no one cared about, and was subject to all of that and felt very very passionate that she should be free, right, very much, always leaning into that. And then when Harriet was maybe somewhere between ten to thirteen. We don't know that much about Harry's exact age because nothing was documented when slaves were born. There was no birth certificates or you know, we don't know times and all of that, so there's always a little mystery about her exact date of birth. But she had this head injury. She went to a store to get some items. In that moment, she saw a slave running into the store being chased by an overseer, somebody who oversees the plantations and keeps everyone in a very brutal working condition there. And he asked her to hold down the slaves. She denied immediately, no, I will not hold him down, so you can beat him. And he threw a weight that was on the counter and hit her in the head. I think this is the first significant thing. There's like some key things about her life, born into slavery, her whole family, many siblings. Then she gets this head injury. And the head injury, they thought she would die, right They carried her back to her house and for two days she went in and out of consciousness. But Harriet says that was the beginning of an awakening and this incredible connection to the spirit world. It was like something open, and she journeyed and saw herself and talked about throughout her whole life, this conversation with the divine. She became clairvoyant. She had this awakening that happened there. So then she goes on to continue living as a slave, but runs away when she's in her twenties twenty six, somewhere around there twenty seven, finally runs away makes it alone. Nobody knew what to make of Harriet Tubman because of the injuries. She had narcolepsy, seizures, and she would just pass out at any moment in the middle of a conversation, just fall into a sleep, stayed. They couldn't never wake her up, no matter what they did, but when she did wake up, she would have these stories, and they just thought, this lady is crazy. She was seeing visions of the future and her role and being a conductor and being free, and everyone thought she was just crazy. And Harriet, you know, was one hundred pounds five feet tall. This was no large person, right, so they thought this crazy woman. But Harriet's really enough, made her way on her own all the way to Philadelphia, walked one hundred and twenty miles to get there, and then in the Abolitionist Society, the Anti Slavery Society, and became a leader. And even though she was wanted fugitive began speaking out right away when she got to Philadelphia and she was wanted, and she began her first mission by rescuing a niece and her two children that were on the auction blocks going to be sold away from the farm that she grew up on and that led her into rescuing people. And then she became one of the most famous conductors and her nickname was Moses after she conducted on the railroad for ten years and rescued all of her family members, including her parents in a very daring rescue. As an underground operative. She then became involved and was recruited into the Civil War. And this is a part of the story that many people don't know about. And also this has been kind of suppressed that Harriet was a great war hero and it was extremely patriotic. Was a nurse. She had this match ability with making plant concoctions that cured dysentery. She had some gift with it, and she was saving countless lives with her medicine, brews and her tinctures. But also she was recruited to be a spy for the Union Army and she was the first woman in history to lead, plan and execute her own military raids with her own troop of black soldiers and led very amazing successful attacks on the Confederate stronghold places and rescuing people. And I mean, who does this right.

It's incredible.

It's incredible.

I mean, this is a woman who's formerly enslaved leading. I mean, it just makes no sense, and then went on to join the Woman's movement and fought with Susan B. Anthony for the passing of the Women's Voting Rights Act, And just her whole life was just dedicated to liberation and freedom, that every being born should have the same equal rights. I could say, mariy, but those are some of the main things that stand out.

I mean, this is a woman who's formerly enslaved leading. I mean, it just makes no sense, and then went on to join the Woman's movement and fought with Susan B. Anthony for the passing of the Women's Voting Rights Act, And just her whole life was just dedicated to liberation and freedom, that every being born should have the same equal rights. I could say, mariy, but those are some of the main things that stand out.

Another part of that story that I had never heard was that her mother's slave owner, when he passed in his will, what you can tell that part. I had never heard that, and it's sort of astounding and heartbreaking.

Another part of that story that I had never heard was that her mother's slave owner, when he passed in his will, what you can tell that part. I had never heard that, and it's sort of astounding and heartbreaking.

Oh yes, this is like a big one. Yes. So Harriet's grandmother came over on a slave ship. Her name was Modesty, and then Modesty gave birth And I have a chapter called Harriet and her Grandmother Modesty in the family tree. Her mother was born on the plantation, gave birth to Harriet, was married. Harry's parents were married. Harry's family was very close knit. Her parents managed to stay loving and married and died at an old age together. They stayed throughout their entire life in marriage, and unbeknownst to her mother, rich her mother's name was rit Rittia, the grandfather who purchased her grandmother, and then the whole family came freed. Her mother said wrote in his will upon death, writ is to be freed at the age of forty in all of her offsprings well. When the patriarchal father died, they didn't honor the request and the will. But the thing is Harriet knew though. Harriet had this unwavering knowledge that her family was being betrayed, and saved up money even though she was a slave, did side job, somehow, hustled together some money, went into town, hired a lawyer to look into her family records. The lawyer found the record and said, here's the record of the will. You are free, but there's nothing we can do. There's no course that's going to listen to. You just go back to slavery. But that burning feeling that you know everything that's happening to you is wrong. And that family that was locked into this battle with Harriet's family for all those years, fueled Harriet's motivation. And it was so painful to see her mother working when she knew her mother was supposed to be free and they were all supposed to have been let go, you know, and to live free life. So that was a very powerful story of betrayal.

Oh yes, this is like a big one. Yes. So Harriet's grandmother came over on a slave ship. Her name was Modesty, and then Modesty gave birth And I have a chapter called Harriet and her Grandmother Modesty in the family tree. Her mother was born on the plantation, gave birth to Harriet, was married. Harry's parents were married. Harry's family was very close knit. Her parents managed to stay loving and married and died at an old age together. They stayed throughout their entire life in marriage, and unbeknownst to her mother, rich her mother's name was rit Rittia, the grandfather who purchased her grandmother, and then the whole family came freed. Her mother said wrote in his will upon death, writ is to be freed at the age of forty in all of her offsprings well. When the patriarchal father died, they didn't honor the request and the will. But the thing is Harriet knew though. Harriet had this unwavering knowledge that her family was being betrayed, and saved up money even though she was a slave, did side job, somehow, hustled together some money, went into town, hired a lawyer to look into her family records. The lawyer found the record and said, here's the record of the will. You are free, but there's nothing we can do. There's no course that's going to listen to. You just go back to slavery. But that burning feeling that you know everything that's happening to you is wrong. And that family that was locked into this battle with Harriet's family for all those years, fueled Harriet's motivation. And it was so painful to see her mother working when she knew her mother was supposed to be free and they were all supposed to have been let go, you know, and to live free life. So that was a very powerful story of betrayal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this family that owned them, Oh, they did everything, everything you could think of to Harriet's family, including sol three of her sisters away. And it was a painful dynamic, I would say the least.

And this family that owned them, Oh, they did everything, everything you could think of to Harriet's family, including sol three of her sisters away. And it was a painful dynamic, I would say the least.

And it's remarkable that she had the foday to instead of being broken by it, she was fueled by it.

And it's remarkable that she had the foday to instead of being broken by it, she was fueled by it.

Yes, if you just also just use this analogy of you're supposed to be led out of prison, right, You're supposed to be le out of prison, but the prison doesn't tell you. They hide it from you and keep you in jail another twenty years, right, and go, oh, well they told the governor said you could go, but we decided, yeah, to hide that paperwork. You know. That's the kind of betrayal this is.

Yes, if you just also just use this analogy of you're supposed to be led out of prison, right, You're supposed to be le out of prison, but the prison doesn't tell you. They hide it from you and keep you in jail another twenty years, right, and go, oh, well they told the governor said you could go, but we decided, yeah, to hide that paperwork. You know. That's the kind of betrayal this is.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's incredible. And the stuff about her in the Civil War leading troops and she's just truly remarkable, more so even than the basic facts that I knew about her, you know the fact that she was a conductor on the underground railroad and how many people she had rescued, But that other stuff too, it's just it's kind of amazing. I'd like to shift us a little bit into some of the deeper messages embodied in Harriet's life, in your interactions with her spirit, and how that also ties in with your dharma teaching, and so, you know, one of the places I'd like to start is talking a little bit about prisons of the mind. We can clearly see the external prison that slaves are in. We can see the external structures that black people still live in today. I mean, there's external prisons of varying shapes and sizes and dimensions, but there's also kind of the prisons of our mind. Share a little bit more about that, because that's really very much in line with the Buddhist teachings on liberation.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's incredible. And the stuff about her in the Civil War leading troops and she's just truly remarkable, more so even than the basic facts that I knew about her, you know the fact that she was a conductor on the underground railroad and how many people she had rescued, But that other stuff too, it's just it's kind of amazing. I'd like to shift us a little bit into some of the deeper messages embodied in Harriet's life, in your interactions with her spirit, and how that also ties in with your dharma teaching, and so, you know, one of the places I'd like to start is talking a little bit about prisons of the mind. We can clearly see the external prison that slaves are in. We can see the external structures that black people still live in today. I mean, there's external prisons of varying shapes and sizes and dimensions, but there's also kind of the prisons of our mind. Share a little bit more about that, because that's really very much in line with the Buddhist teachings on liberation.

I mean, we can definitely see where we're imprisoned by our thoughts, right, and how we can get imprisoned by greed, we can be imprisoned by hatred and delusion, and that to be walking the path is to be breaking out of all these constructs about who we are, who other people are, and ultimately letting go of greed and letting go of hatred, and letting go of delusion and seeing the truth of who we are. But I really believe that these mind states are real prisons and the ideas that we're freeing ourself from them. And I think what stood out for me about Harriet Tubman was she was never imprisoned by the inferiority demon. They tried to beat it into her, you're worthless, you'll never be free. You know, you're a woman. Who do you think you are? And it was this ability of Harriet. Somehow she was never beholden to the program. She was always like, I'm outside of that. I don't subscribe to that right, I won't adopt I'm inferior because I'm black and a slave and a woman. And those were hard conditions to overcome and born into slavery, and your mother was born into slavery, and your grandmother was brought over as a slave. I mean to have a vision of seeing yourself as somebody other than that, to see yourself as you are in the eyes of what do you call God or Buddha, or to see your true nature, to rise up. That's what I mean by breaking out of the prison. It's the prison of concepts that limit us to who we are. And Harriet was trying to liberate people from hatred. Doctor King used to say that I'm going to liberate too from your hatred. You don't see it as a prison. You like it or you're involved in it. Right, Brutalizing others, hating other people is a prison. There's no freedom in that, there's no happy result in that, there's no winning in that. That's a path of destruction. And so that's what prisons do. They imprison us from seeing our goodness. So the whole of the spiritual path is waking up and letting go and shedding more and more these cells that we lock ourselves in. And now on the outer level, yes, there are people literally in cells literally experiencing on the physical level imprisonment, but many more are dealing with the prison of their mind. And we can see this now that where we are in this time is a war of consciousness. Right, It's like who's going to win the war? Which wolf wins? Right now? Right, it's so classic.

I mean, we can definitely see where we're imprisoned by our thoughts, right, and how we can get imprisoned by greed, we can be imprisoned by hatred and delusion, and that to be walking the path is to be breaking out of all these constructs about who we are, who other people are, and ultimately letting go of greed and letting go of hatred, and letting go of delusion and seeing the truth of who we are. But I really believe that these mind states are real prisons and the ideas that we're freeing ourself from them. And I think what stood out for me about Harriet Tubman was she was never imprisoned by the inferiority demon. They tried to beat it into her, you're worthless, you'll never be free. You know, you're a woman. Who do you think you are? And it was this ability of Harriet. Somehow she was never beholden to the program. She was always like, I'm outside of that. I don't subscribe to that right, I won't adopt I'm inferior because I'm black and a slave and a woman. And those were hard conditions to overcome and born into slavery, and your mother was born into slavery, and your grandmother was brought over as a slave. I mean to have a vision of seeing yourself as somebody other than that, to see yourself as you are in the eyes of what do you call God or Buddha, or to see your true nature, to rise up. That's what I mean by breaking out of the prison. It's the prison of concepts that limit us to who we are. And Harriet was trying to liberate people from hatred. Doctor King used to say that I'm going to liberate too from your hatred. You don't see it as a prison. You like it or you're involved in it. Right, Brutalizing others, hating other people is a prison. There's no freedom in that, there's no happy result in that, there's no winning in that. That's a path of destruction. And so that's what prisons do. They imprison us from seeing our goodness. So the whole of the spiritual path is waking up and letting go and shedding more and more these cells that we lock ourselves in. And now on the outer level, yes, there are people literally in cells literally experiencing on the physical level imprisonment, but many more are dealing with the prison of their mind. And we can see this now that where we are in this time is a war of consciousness. Right, It's like who's going to win the war? Which wolf wins? Right now? Right, it's so classic.

Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net, slash EBAs book and take the first step towards getting back on track. We all know examples of people in situations that they are not free in many ways, but they are in many other ways very free, freer than most of us. You know. Nelson Mandela is a historical example of that. But we can read memoirs of people in prison and we can see, like wow, that person, Yes, while they were living in terrible circumstances, but inwardly they were free. Nicole on our team who helps put these episodes together and do research, she really drew a parallel that I'm glad she did about when you're talking about Harriet Tubman, and you know, having to free not only the slaves once they were physically free, but having to free their minds, and it reminded of Edith Eager. I don't know if you knew who she is. She was in the Holocaust camps, I think at Auschwitz, but she talks about that even after being freed, she had work to do to free her mind from captivity. And how many people remain imprisoned in their mind even after they were set free.

Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net, slash EBAs book and take the first step towards getting back on track. We all know examples of people in situations that they are not free in many ways, but they are in many other ways very free, freer than most of us. You know. Nelson Mandela is a historical example of that. But we can read memoirs of people in prison and we can see, like wow, that person, Yes, while they were living in terrible circumstances, but inwardly they were free. Nicole on our team who helps put these episodes together and do research, she really drew a parallel that I'm glad she did about when you're talking about Harriet Tubman, and you know, having to free not only the slaves once they were physically free, but having to free their minds, and it reminded of Edith Eager. I don't know if you knew who she is. She was in the Holocaust camps, I think at Auschwitz, but she talks about that even after being freed, she had work to do to free her mind from captivity. And how many people remain imprisoned in their mind even after they were set free.

Yeah, and even trauma is a form of being in prisoned still. Yeah, right, we're still enacting. We're still reacting until we even heal our trauma. We're imprisoned by it. We're imprisoned by a fear and what just happened to us. Our bodies hold on. So freeing your mind is no easy job at times, you know, we've got like it's not easy on the external level, right, But this is the time that we're in now, We're in a time and space where we have to look at our mind and what we are creating, the hell realm, because exactly, you meet people all over who live in very difficult situations but are experiencing much more joy. We see billionaires on TV right now creating hell realms and saying, you know, they're in a hell realm of their mind. They might have a billion dollars, but it doesn't buy you real freedom, and it doesn't buy you compassion, it doesn't buy you wisdom. And so there's a guy that I love a lot who's on death row right now, named Jarvis J. Masters. He's at same Quentin Prison, and he's someone that I think about every time I drive over the Richmond Bridge, you know, because he's in a tiny unit right there, on death row and practicing hour after hour after hour after hour. Right He's like, if I die here, okay, so be it. I was freed a long time ago. My heart is free. They can do whatever they want to my body now, prison it, beat it, lay it here, or even kill it, you know, but I know my heart is free. And so this is what we talk about, the prison of the mind. And this is a high level we're talking about, you know, this is a higher level of consciousness.

Yeah, and even trauma is a form of being in prisoned still. Yeah, right, we're still enacting. We're still reacting until we even heal our trauma. We're imprisoned by it. We're imprisoned by a fear and what just happened to us. Our bodies hold on. So freeing your mind is no easy job at times, you know, we've got like it's not easy on the external level, right, But this is the time that we're in now, We're in a time and space where we have to look at our mind and what we are creating, the hell realm, because exactly, you meet people all over who live in very difficult situations but are experiencing much more joy. We see billionaires on TV right now creating hell realms and saying, you know, they're in a hell realm of their mind. They might have a billion dollars, but it doesn't buy you real freedom, and it doesn't buy you compassion, it doesn't buy you wisdom. And so there's a guy that I love a lot who's on death row right now, named Jarvis J. Masters. He's at same Quentin Prison, and he's someone that I think about every time I drive over the Richmond Bridge, you know, because he's in a tiny unit right there, on death row and practicing hour after hour after hour after hour. Right He's like, if I die here, okay, so be it. I was freed a long time ago. My heart is free. They can do whatever they want to my body now, prison it, beat it, lay it here, or even kill it, you know, but I know my heart is free. And so this is what we talk about, the prison of the mind. And this is a high level we're talking about, you know, this is a higher level of consciousness.

I love what you said there about how difficult this is, right, I mean, it is extraordinarily difficult to free ourselves from the prisons of our mind. But in my experience, to do it to whatever extent we are able to free ourselves is valuable. You talk about abolitionism later on in the book, and you say that there's three levels of it, inner, outer, and ultimate. Talk to me about what you mean by that.

I love what you said there about how difficult this is, right, I mean, it is extraordinarily difficult to free ourselves from the prisons of our mind. But in my experience, to do it to whatever extent we are able to free ourselves is valuable. You talk about abolitionism later on in the book, and you say that there's three levels of it, inner, outer, and ultimate. Talk to me about what you mean by that.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking a lot about that word abolitionism and abolitionist. You know, those who that word was so popular when people were seeking to abolish slavery, right, they wanted to abolish this law, They wanted to abolish this mind state. Right, and then you know, the word kind of went out of style a little bit. It was very popular the abolitionist society. These were kind of like the activists of our time, you know. So that word abolishing, you know, and I think about that right now, Inner abolitionists, is this abolishing our own greed, hatred and delusion. It's this seeking to abolish that which is destroying us. Right, We're going to abolish these habits, these patterns, and we're going to liberate ourselves from them. I mean, as a dharma practitioner, it's all we're ever doing is uprooting these seeds and planting new ones. Right, we're cultivators, we're farmers of our consciousness, and you've got to be willing to tackle these habits in these mind states. So the inner is the willingness to do the work of abolishing our racism, our cruelty, our inner hatred. And we don't do that with a state of the baseball bat. We're doing this with the heart of compassion, you know. So we're the inner abolition. The outer is just that we become also sensitive to what is happening around us. We don't walk around with blinders on. Oh sorry, I'm sorry, that's happening to you. It's not happening to me. By someone's being murdered outside in front of us, well sorry, Like we seek also to end it in our environment, it becomes an extension. This is an extension of me, you know. And when I see the suffering right outside my house, there's a movement to reduce it, to help support abolishing any place where this hatred is living in society. And so that's kind of the outer. It's that movement to reduce and that abolitionists. Our ancestors who were some of the greatest abolitionists ever, they didn't live in slave states, they didn't have to. They wanted to abolish it because of its cruelty. So I know, for a lot of us right now, I want to abolish the current way policing is done in America and re envision another way, a safer way, a more loving way. You know, that's something that that word is picking up steam again. Abolition, you know, let's abolish this system and create something else. And then ultimate is just kind of moving on the path of like the Buddhas and the profits and the awakened beings, that's seeing that all of this is just a dream. Ultimately, it is the abolishing of the ego itself. Right, ultimate liberation is the south. The whole idea is gone, and we're just in a sea of compassion and we're just being used in the service of humanity in that way. So I write that as the ultimate level of it. When the ego has been abolished, now you're really free.

Yeah, you know, I was thinking a lot about that word abolitionism and abolitionist. You know, those who that word was so popular when people were seeking to abolish slavery, right, they wanted to abolish this law, They wanted to abolish this mind state. Right, and then you know, the word kind of went out of style a little bit. It was very popular the abolitionist society. These were kind of like the activists of our time, you know. So that word abolishing, you know, and I think about that right now, Inner abolitionists, is this abolishing our own greed, hatred and delusion. It's this seeking to abolish that which is destroying us. Right, We're going to abolish these habits, these patterns, and we're going to liberate ourselves from them. I mean, as a dharma practitioner, it's all we're ever doing is uprooting these seeds and planting new ones. Right, we're cultivators, we're farmers of our consciousness, and you've got to be willing to tackle these habits in these mind states. So the inner is the willingness to do the work of abolishing our racism, our cruelty, our inner hatred. And we don't do that with a state of the baseball bat. We're doing this with the heart of compassion, you know. So we're the inner abolition. The outer is just that we become also sensitive to what is happening around us. We don't walk around with blinders on. Oh sorry, I'm sorry, that's happening to you. It's not happening to me. By someone's being murdered outside in front of us, well sorry, Like we seek also to end it in our environment, it becomes an extension. This is an extension of me, you know. And when I see the suffering right outside my house, there's a movement to reduce it, to help support abolishing any place where this hatred is living in society. And so that's kind of the outer. It's that movement to reduce and that abolitionists. Our ancestors who were some of the greatest abolitionists ever, they didn't live in slave states, they didn't have to. They wanted to abolish it because of its cruelty. So I know, for a lot of us right now, I want to abolish the current way policing is done in America and re envision another way, a safer way, a more loving way. You know, that's something that that word is picking up steam again. Abolition, you know, let's abolish this system and create something else. And then ultimate is just kind of moving on the path of like the Buddhas and the profits and the awakened beings, that's seeing that all of this is just a dream. Ultimately, it is the abolishing of the ego itself. Right, ultimate liberation is the south. The whole idea is gone, and we're just in a sea of compassion and we're just being used in the service of humanity in that way. So I write that as the ultimate level of it. When the ego has been abolished, now you're really free.

Yeah. I love thinking of it in those ways, and that we do have work to do in er outer and at least a glimpsing occasionally at that ultimate freedom is there. I want to change directions a little bit here and talk about the North Star. What is the historical importance of the North Star? And what's the symbolic importance of the North Star? Why is there a chapter that's very much focused in that direction.

Yeah. I love thinking of it in those ways, and that we do have work to do in er outer and at least a glimpsing occasionally at that ultimate freedom is there. I want to change directions a little bit here and talk about the North Star. What is the historical importance of the North Star? And what's the symbolic importance of the North Star? Why is there a chapter that's very much focused in that direction.

When I think of the North Star. You know, first of all, Harriet Tubman was someone who followed the North Star by herself, walked all the way from Maryland to Philadelphia, following just the lights in the sky. I mean, imagine there was no cell phones, there's no maps. This is someone who could not read or write. This is someone who was avoiding slave catchers and dogs and you know, bounty hunters and his faith in the stars. This kind of reminds me of when Doctor King used to say, the strong arc of the universe bends toward justice, right. And the history of the North Star is so interesting. It used to think it was the Star of Bethlehem going back that far. And the North Star is an interesting polarist. It doesn't move, It stays like in the same direction pointing north, and sailors used it, and it has this amazing history. Native American tribes used it. They would refer to it as their chief star, right, and they would build their lodging around looking at the star, and it felt like us star that was a protector star. So here you have this star system that's leading people that actually becomes a map, a light, a beacon to what they were figuring was the promised Land, But they'd been dreaming a place out of slavery, out of change, into a place where they could be free and not be brutalized. So Harriet's belief in faith in the North Star was profound. She had a great like this is, I know I can follow this, and I know these stars are helping me, And that night would walk all through the night's left in the day hiding and all through the night walk just following the stars. And because I'm such a stargazer, I love it. You know, I always feel that when I look in the sky and see the stars, you feel like there's a benevolence there.