Go to a farmer's market and buy a fruit that you've never tasted, and taste that. I think there are so many ways that we can awaken our experiences. Our brains again great as they are. As we've been saying, like to let things go, and it's much easier for our brains if everything is the same. They don't have to pay attention.

Go to a farmer's market and buy a fruit that you've never tasted, and taste that. I think there are so many ways that we can awaken our experiences. Our brains again great as they are. As we've been saying, like to let things go, and it's much easier for our brains if everything is the same. They don't have to pay attention.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and createive effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and createive effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

There's a common idea out in the self help psychology world that our thoughts create our reality, and while that is true, some of the time, it's not the full story.

There's a common idea out in the self help psychology world that our thoughts create our reality, and while that is true, some of the time, it's not the full story.

Because what about those.

Because what about those.

Mornings where you wake up feeling off before you've even had a thought, or the days when your mood shifts just because you stood up a little straighter. Those are certainly experiences I've had that have made me wonder well, are my thoughts the whole thing? And that's where today's guest, Janis Kaplan comes In her latest book, What Your Body Knows About Happiness, reveals something surprising. Your body is also shaping your emotions, often before your brain even catches up. We dig into why posture and movement and even the weight of a clipboard can influence how you feel. For me, this conversation put words to something I've sensed for years. Bodies aren't just reacting to our emotions, they're helping create them. It gives credence to one of my favorite phrases, which is sometimes you can't think your way into right action. You have to act your way into right thinking. And once we understand that, we can start using our bodies to change our minds. H'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed.

Mornings where you wake up feeling off before you've even had a thought, or the days when your mood shifts just because you stood up a little straighter. Those are certainly experiences I've had that have made me wonder well, are my thoughts the whole thing? And that's where today's guest, Janis Kaplan comes In her latest book, What Your Body Knows About Happiness, reveals something surprising. Your body is also shaping your emotions, often before your brain even catches up. We dig into why posture and movement and even the weight of a clipboard can influence how you feel. For me, this conversation put words to something I've sensed for years. Bodies aren't just reacting to our emotions, they're helping create them. It gives credence to one of my favorite phrases, which is sometimes you can't think your way into right action. You have to act your way into right thinking. And once we understand that, we can start using our bodies to change our minds. H'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed.

Hi.

Hi.

Janis, Welcome to the show.

Janis, Welcome to the show.

Thanks Eric, it's a pleasure to be here.

Thanks Eric, it's a pleasure to be here.

We are in our studio in Columbus, Ohio, and you are with me, So that is always a pleasure when we get to do these in person. So I appreciate you coming over to do this. You're in town to give a talk for your latest book, which is called What Your Body Knows About Happiness, How do you use your body to change your mind? And you'll be talking tonight at the library about that. And that's what we're going to be talking about right now. But before we do, let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you how that parable applies to you your life and the work that you do.

We are in our studio in Columbus, Ohio, and you are with me, So that is always a pleasure when we get to do these in person. So I appreciate you coming over to do this. You're in town to give a talk for your latest book, which is called What Your Body Knows About Happiness, How do you use your body to change your mind? And you'll be talking tonight at the library about that. And that's what we're going to be talking about right now. But before we do, let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you how that parable applies to you your life and the work that you do.

I absolutely love that parable and It's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you. It's such a perfect way of talking about so many things that matter, and I had not heard it, frankly, before I discovered it through you, But I realized that it's very much what I've been talking about and writing about for years, because the book I did, the Gratitude Diaries, was really about that idea that it's how we look at events, it's what we bring to the world. It's what we bring to the experiences that we have that matters, and we spend so much time thinking that it's the events that are shaping us, and in truth, there are always different ways to look at them, and always different things that you can get from them. And as your parable suggests, it's really up to you whether it's going to be the good or the bad, whether you're going to look back on a day and say, what a great day I had or what a terrible day I had. And I think once you realize that you have that control and that you have that power over your life, it makes a big difference.

I absolutely love that parable and It's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you. It's such a perfect way of talking about so many things that matter, and I had not heard it, frankly, before I discovered it through you, But I realized that it's very much what I've been talking about and writing about for years, because the book I did, the Gratitude Diaries, was really about that idea that it's how we look at events, it's what we bring to the world. It's what we bring to the experiences that we have that matters, and we spend so much time thinking that it's the events that are shaping us, and in truth, there are always different ways to look at them, and always different things that you can get from them. And as your parable suggests, it's really up to you whether it's going to be the good or the bad, whether you're going to look back on a day and say, what a great day I had or what a terrible day I had. And I think once you realize that you have that control and that you have that power over your life, it makes a big difference.

Right.

Right.

I always like to think of it is it's not the events themselves exclusively. It's not only how we think about them. It's a co creation. The things that happened to us matter in life, and how we respond to them matters often far more absolutely.

I always like to think of it is it's not the events themselves exclusively. It's not only how we think about them. It's a co creation. The things that happened to us matter in life, and how we respond to them matters often far more absolutely.

And when you think about there are certain people who you know that if they're going to get sick, they're going to tell you how horrible it is. They're going to be sick for a week, They're going to be complaining endlessly. And there are other people who are just going to say, yeah, I'm okay, and who are just going to move on. And of course there are terrible things that happen, and of course there are terrible circumstances that people go through, and I certainly never ever would undermine that. But I was so struck when I wrote and get to my new book soon. But when I wrote The Gratitude Diaries, and I toured extensively and talked extensively with that book, and I knew that when I wrote that book, it was about bringing my life from good to better. I've had a good life, and I don't pretend otherwise. But I spoke to so many people who would come up and thank me and tell me how the book or the sense of gratitude had helped them through. And they would tell me these dreadful situations, health issues, suicide, family tragedies, and I was always so moved by that to realize that, yeah, you got to wake up the next morning, you have to put your feet out of head the next morning, and you get to figure out how you're going to feel when you do that.

And when you think about there are certain people who you know that if they're going to get sick, they're going to tell you how horrible it is. They're going to be sick for a week, They're going to be complaining endlessly. And there are other people who are just going to say, yeah, I'm okay, and who are just going to move on. And of course there are terrible things that happen, and of course there are terrible circumstances that people go through, and I certainly never ever would undermine that. But I was so struck when I wrote and get to my new book soon. But when I wrote The Gratitude Diaries, and I toured extensively and talked extensively with that book, and I knew that when I wrote that book, it was about bringing my life from good to better. I've had a good life, and I don't pretend otherwise. But I spoke to so many people who would come up and thank me and tell me how the book or the sense of gratitude had helped them through. And they would tell me these dreadful situations, health issues, suicide, family tragedies, and I was always so moved by that to realize that, yeah, you got to wake up the next morning, you have to put your feet out of head the next morning, and you get to figure out how you're going to feel when you do that.

Yeah, it's interesting because mindset stuff like this or self help or however we want to categorize it. In the political dialogue of the last few years and I'm not going to go into politics, is presented as something that is for the privileged. And I understand what people are saying by that, right, like if you're going to meditate an hour a day, it's a privilege to have the time to be able to meditate for an hour a day, et cetera. But I think if we look back at and it's the reason why I am and I think a lot of people are inspired by people like Victor Frankel, who is showing these same ideas were helpful in the furthest thing from privilege you could possibly have in a concentration camp, right, These things were useful and valuable there, and so they are ways of looking at and thinking about the world that serve us regardless of where we are, and I think that painting these things out to be things that are only for the privileged is the wrong way to look at it. Again, I understand what's being said, but I think it sends a message that people who aren't don't have time for this stuff, and I think we all have time to at least reflect on how we view the world and respond to it.

Yeah, it's interesting because mindset stuff like this or self help or however we want to categorize it. In the political dialogue of the last few years and I'm not going to go into politics, is presented as something that is for the privileged. And I understand what people are saying by that, right, like if you're going to meditate an hour a day, it's a privilege to have the time to be able to meditate for an hour a day, et cetera. But I think if we look back at and it's the reason why I am and I think a lot of people are inspired by people like Victor Frankel, who is showing these same ideas were helpful in the furthest thing from privilege you could possibly have in a concentration camp, right, These things were useful and valuable there, and so they are ways of looking at and thinking about the world that serve us regardless of where we are, and I think that painting these things out to be things that are only for the privileged is the wrong way to look at it. Again, I understand what's being said, but I think it sends a message that people who aren't don't have time for this stuff, and I think we all have time to at least reflect on how we view the world and respond to it.

I completely agree, And some years ago I co authored a book with a woman who had had a truly terrible tragedy in her life in New York. It was known as the Wrong Way on the Taconic Accident. It was a pretty famous accident that there were documentaries about it, and the woman's three children had been in the backseat of a car driven by her sister in law. The woman went the wrong way on a highway in New York and the three children were killed. Can you imagine anything more horrible? Somebody connected us together. We met and the first time we met, she was suicidal, as you can imagine, her three small children had just been killed. She was a very religious woman and frankly, she wanted to go join them in heaven. And as we were talking, she was so frail and so fragile. And then at some point she said, and I'm so grateful to my friends because after this happened, they came over every single day and I'm so filled with gratitude to them. And I couldn't have gotten through if not for them. And she was going on and on about her gratitude to her friend friends. And this was well before I wrote the Gratitude Diaries, but I think it was one of the things that stuck with me and then inspired me afterwards, because I thought, if somebody in this position can use the word gratitude, then who can't.

I completely agree, And some years ago I co authored a book with a woman who had had a truly terrible tragedy in her life in New York. It was known as the Wrong Way on the Taconic Accident. It was a pretty famous accident that there were documentaries about it, and the woman's three children had been in the backseat of a car driven by her sister in law. The woman went the wrong way on a highway in New York and the three children were killed. Can you imagine anything more horrible? Somebody connected us together. We met and the first time we met, she was suicidal, as you can imagine, her three small children had just been killed. She was a very religious woman and frankly, she wanted to go join them in heaven. And as we were talking, she was so frail and so fragile. And then at some point she said, and I'm so grateful to my friends because after this happened, they came over every single day and I'm so filled with gratitude to them. And I couldn't have gotten through if not for them. And she was going on and on about her gratitude to her friend friends. And this was well before I wrote the Gratitude Diaries, but I think it was one of the things that stuck with me and then inspired me afterwards, because I thought, if somebody in this position can use the word gratitude, then who can't.

And I think that speaks to like a really important truth, which is that you can be in a huge amount of pain and you can also be grateful for certain things, Like we can have multiple coexisting emotions or feelings about things. Right, she was on one hand despairing, on another hand starting to see like, oh, well, this part of it is okay, this part of it's good.

And I think that speaks to like a really important truth, which is that you can be in a huge amount of pain and you can also be grateful for certain things, Like we can have multiple coexisting emotions or feelings about things. Right, she was on one hand despairing, on another hand starting to see like, oh, well, this part of it is okay, this part of it's good.

Yes, And being grateful doesn't mean accepting things as they are.

Yes, And being grateful doesn't mean accepting things as they are.

Right.

Right.

If there are things that you can go out and change, if there are events that you can change in your life or in the world, or in any way, go out and do them. But if not, we have to take stock and see where we are. And appreciating where you are at the moment doesn't mean you don't want things to be better going forward. And what you were saying about happiness being an advantage of the privileged, we're always looking at people who have more than us, and we don't do a very good job at looking at the people who have less than us. And think about all the people who were looking at you, or any of your listeners, or any of the people who think that they don't have enough and are saying, boy, I wish I were in your position. So turn it around that way and it gives you a different perspective.

If there are things that you can go out and change, if there are events that you can change in your life or in the world, or in any way, go out and do them. But if not, we have to take stock and see where we are. And appreciating where you are at the moment doesn't mean you don't want things to be better going forward. And what you were saying about happiness being an advantage of the privileged, we're always looking at people who have more than us, and we don't do a very good job at looking at the people who have less than us. And think about all the people who were looking at you, or any of your listeners, or any of the people who think that they don't have enough and are saying, boy, I wish I were in your position. So turn it around that way and it gives you a different perspective.

So let's now turn our attention to your latest book. And you tell a story early on about how gratitude was useful to you in a situation, but you realized it wasn't the whole story. Maybe walk us through that story, which sort of is the origin of where this book came from.

So let's now turn our attention to your latest book. And you tell a story early on about how gratitude was useful to you in a situation, but you realized it wasn't the whole story. Maybe walk us through that story, which sort of is the origin of where this book came from.

Right, Well, I had written the Gratitude Diaries, and I do believe the things about reframing situations looking at things from a different perspective actually do work. And I'm not going to have anybody's sympathy. As I tell this story, because I was going on a vacation one day, but it was one of those days where you feel like everything is going wrong. You know, you lose your luggage and the everything feels like it's going wrong. And I was standing in a very small airport and I was trying to do those gratitude games that I had taught myself, like, well, my luggage is lost, but I'm grateful because I have a bathing suit in my carry on, so it's going to be okay. And you know, my husband was teasing me about it, but I was trying really hard. We're on vacation. I don't want to be negative. And cut to we get to we were actually going to an island. As I said, nobody's going to have sympathy for me on this story. And so I'm on a boat and all of a sudden, I felt differently. All of a sudden, the sun was shining, the water was drifting by, and I suddenly felt happy, and I realized I didn't have to do any of those reframing, rethinking gratitude games. I suddenly felt different, and I thought, what just happened? And how can I put myself in situations where that happens again, and the epiphany, if you want to call it, was that our bodies are constantly sending information to our brains, and we don't realize the power that our bodies have to change how we feel, to change the happiness we feel, to change the joy or despair that we feel in a moment.

Right, Well, I had written the Gratitude Diaries, and I do believe the things about reframing situations looking at things from a different perspective actually do work. And I'm not going to have anybody's sympathy. As I tell this story, because I was going on a vacation one day, but it was one of those days where you feel like everything is going wrong. You know, you lose your luggage and the everything feels like it's going wrong. And I was standing in a very small airport and I was trying to do those gratitude games that I had taught myself, like, well, my luggage is lost, but I'm grateful because I have a bathing suit in my carry on, so it's going to be okay. And you know, my husband was teasing me about it, but I was trying really hard. We're on vacation. I don't want to be negative. And cut to we get to we were actually going to an island. As I said, nobody's going to have sympathy for me on this story. And so I'm on a boat and all of a sudden, I felt differently. All of a sudden, the sun was shining, the water was drifting by, and I suddenly felt happy, and I realized I didn't have to do any of those reframing, rethinking gratitude games. I suddenly felt different, and I thought, what just happened? And how can I put myself in situations where that happens again, and the epiphany, if you want to call it, was that our bodies are constantly sending information to our brains, and we don't realize the power that our bodies have to change how we feel, to change the happiness we feel, to change the joy or despair that we feel in a moment.

Yeah, I've thought about this ever since we started the show, and it's a question that I've asked in a thousand different permeations over time, because it's the question of one view of emotion is that thoughts cause emotion. And we all know what that's like. If you told me right now that our podcast had just been canceled from iHeart, I would feel terrible. Right, my thought would cause a feeling, you know, the information. But it seemed to me that it also went the other way, Like there were days that I would wake up and before I'd had a conscious thought, it was like the weather just inside fell off, and then my thoughts all took on the color of whatever that internal feeling was. And so I was like, so it's clearly not a one way thoughts to emotion or thoughts to body sensation. There's clearly feedback going on back and forth, and so you sort of talk about you have a line early on that I think is great. You say, the connections between body and brain are thrillingly complex. You have a lot of great both personal stories and studies throughout the book that show, wow, you know there really is this connection that goes both ways. Tell me one or two that feel thrilling to you. The thrillingly complex aspect.

Yeah, I've thought about this ever since we started the show, and it's a question that I've asked in a thousand different permeations over time, because it's the question of one view of emotion is that thoughts cause emotion. And we all know what that's like. If you told me right now that our podcast had just been canceled from iHeart, I would feel terrible. Right, my thought would cause a feeling, you know, the information. But it seemed to me that it also went the other way, Like there were days that I would wake up and before I'd had a conscious thought, it was like the weather just inside fell off, and then my thoughts all took on the color of whatever that internal feeling was. And so I was like, so it's clearly not a one way thoughts to emotion or thoughts to body sensation. There's clearly feedback going on back and forth, and so you sort of talk about you have a line early on that I think is great. You say, the connections between body and brain are thrillingly complex. You have a lot of great both personal stories and studies throughout the book that show, wow, you know there really is this connection that goes both ways. Tell me one or two that feel thrilling to you. The thrillingly complex aspect.

Of this, Well, there are so many into just first to pick up on what you just said about how you feel, and which comes first. It goes back one hundred years ago to William James, the psychologist and philosopher who gave the example of your walking down the street or I guess you're walking through the woods in his case, and you see a bear, or I like to tell that story if you live in you know I live in New York. You're walking down the street and you get to a dark alley and all of a sudden, your heart is pounding, your hands are sweaty, and you feel scared. So the question is do you feel scared because your heart is pounding or is your heart pounding because you feel scared? Well, most of us are brain centric, and we think, I see the bear, or I see the dark alley. I get scared. It makes my heart start pounding. Now we're talking about obviously split milliseconds here, but the newest research seems to suggest that it works the opposite way. That your body responds first, and your brain is constantly scanning your body, and your brain is going ooh, chest pounding, hand sweaty. I think we're scared. We better do something and run away from that year. Now, obviously it happens a lot faster than that, but people get very dubious about that because they want to think their brains are in control. But we know that the body has a lot of power. If you touch a hot stove, you're going to pull your hand back well before you can think about it. If you run into the street and a car is coming at you, you're gonna be happy that your body knows to leave that scene well before your brain can even register that the car is coming. You really don't want your brain to have to tell your eyes to blink nine thousand times a day, and what would happen while you were asleep to your breathing. So we implicitly understand that things like that occur, But on a bigger level, we forget that our brain, brilliant as it is, is just a three pound blob sitting in a very dark skull, and it is completely reliant on the sensations, on the environment, on the information that it's being fed.

Of this, Well, there are so many into just first to pick up on what you just said about how you feel, and which comes first. It goes back one hundred years ago to William James, the psychologist and philosopher who gave the example of your walking down the street or I guess you're walking through the woods in his case, and you see a bear, or I like to tell that story if you live in you know I live in New York. You're walking down the street and you get to a dark alley and all of a sudden, your heart is pounding, your hands are sweaty, and you feel scared. So the question is do you feel scared because your heart is pounding or is your heart pounding because you feel scared? Well, most of us are brain centric, and we think, I see the bear, or I see the dark alley. I get scared. It makes my heart start pounding. Now we're talking about obviously split milliseconds here, but the newest research seems to suggest that it works the opposite way. That your body responds first, and your brain is constantly scanning your body, and your brain is going ooh, chest pounding, hand sweaty. I think we're scared. We better do something and run away from that year. Now, obviously it happens a lot faster than that, but people get very dubious about that because they want to think their brains are in control. But we know that the body has a lot of power. If you touch a hot stove, you're going to pull your hand back well before you can think about it. If you run into the street and a car is coming at you, you're gonna be happy that your body knows to leave that scene well before your brain can even register that the car is coming. You really don't want your brain to have to tell your eyes to blink nine thousand times a day, and what would happen while you were asleep to your breathing. So we implicitly understand that things like that occur, But on a bigger level, we forget that our brain, brilliant as it is, is just a three pound blob sitting in a very dark skull, and it is completely reliant on the sensations, on the environment, on the information that it's being fed.

Yep. I think that it's important to talk about the role the body plays in comparison to the brain, because, as you said, we're so brain centric. More and more as I think about this, I start to think we're dividing these things into two things and they're not. Our brain is a part of our body. It's all wired up, like we keep dividing them. Again, I think there are useful ways of you know, for making that distinction, But I also think it makes a lot of sense to just think of this as a unified system. I mean, we'll get to some of this in the book. When you start to realize, like how pain both comes from a sensation in your body but is also process and amplified in your brain, you realize that you can't separate these two things from each other.

Yep. I think that it's important to talk about the role the body plays in comparison to the brain, because, as you said, we're so brain centric. More and more as I think about this, I start to think we're dividing these things into two things and they're not. Our brain is a part of our body. It's all wired up, like we keep dividing them. Again, I think there are useful ways of you know, for making that distinction, But I also think it makes a lot of sense to just think of this as a unified system. I mean, we'll get to some of this in the book. When you start to realize, like how pain both comes from a sensation in your body but is also process and amplified in your brain, you realize that you can't separate these two things from each other.

It's a body brain partnership, and you're right, it's a very tight partnership. Let me give you a couple of examples of stories that really surprised me. That was kind of fun research. There's one that was done out of Yale by a professor named John Barge, and he gave people either a cup of hot coffee to cold or an iced coffee to hold, and they didn't realize that this was even part of the experiment. It was while they were in the elevator on the way up to his lab, and then they were asked to evaluate how they felt about certain people. And the people who were given the hot coffee to hold describe the people as being kinder and warmer than the people who were given the iced coffee to hold. Now this seems crazy, right, But what's happening is that somehow the sensation of warmth is sending a message to your brain of warmth, and your brain is misinterpreting that or holding onto that as it's evaluating the person. There was a similar study that was done with resumes, where people were given resumes to evaluate. Now that's a kind of standard psychological test, and if I gave you a resume to look at FAD, you knew this was an experiment. You'd think as she's testing for unconscious bias, and I'm not going to get tricked by the name or where the person lives or anything like that. What you might not think of would be the weight of the clipboard on which the resume was sitting. And it turned out that the people who were given the resumes on heavy clipboards found the people as being more serious and better potential candidates than the people who got them on light clipboards. What is it? Maybe the body metaphor was heavyweight versus lightweight. And you know, there are stories like that that go on and on, and the research is actually really good and really impressive.

It's a body brain partnership, and you're right, it's a very tight partnership. Let me give you a couple of examples of stories that really surprised me. That was kind of fun research. There's one that was done out of Yale by a professor named John Barge, and he gave people either a cup of hot coffee to cold or an iced coffee to hold, and they didn't realize that this was even part of the experiment. It was while they were in the elevator on the way up to his lab, and then they were asked to evaluate how they felt about certain people. And the people who were given the hot coffee to hold describe the people as being kinder and warmer than the people who were given the iced coffee to hold. Now this seems crazy, right, But what's happening is that somehow the sensation of warmth is sending a message to your brain of warmth, and your brain is misinterpreting that or holding onto that as it's evaluating the person. There was a similar study that was done with resumes, where people were given resumes to evaluate. Now that's a kind of standard psychological test, and if I gave you a resume to look at FAD, you knew this was an experiment. You'd think as she's testing for unconscious bias, and I'm not going to get tricked by the name or where the person lives or anything like that. What you might not think of would be the weight of the clipboard on which the resume was sitting. And it turned out that the people who were given the resumes on heavy clipboards found the people as being more serious and better potential candidates than the people who got them on light clipboards. What is it? Maybe the body metaphor was heavyweight versus lightweight. And you know, there are stories like that that go on and on, and the research is actually really good and really impressive.

Yeah, things like that are just amazing because we think we are these creatures of a great deal of rationality, and we are influenced by so many things we just don't understand, and we don't understand how they go together. We don't understand how the way to the clipboard interacts with how I feel this morning. And so when I think about all that, I learned to take my mental perceptions hold them a little bit more loosely, you know, like, how did I arrive at this conclusion? It's probably not as straightforward as I thought.

Yeah, things like that are just amazing because we think we are these creatures of a great deal of rationality, and we are influenced by so many things we just don't understand, and we don't understand how they go together. We don't understand how the way to the clipboard interacts with how I feel this morning. And so when I think about all that, I learned to take my mental perceptions hold them a little bit more loosely, you know, like, how did I arrive at this conclusion? It's probably not as straightforward as I thought.

Well, it's great that you think that, and you're aware of it because we're not usually aware of it. There was another study that intrigued me. It was out of a business school, a professor who is now at the University of Michigan, and he was looking at negotiations. He was having people negotiate for a car, and I was theoretically of course, but during these car negotiations, he found that when people were sitting on hard chairs, they negotiated harder than when they were sitting on soft chairs. So what's going on there? Well, maybe when you're sitting on a hard chair, you're feeling edgy, there's some message that's coming from your body and your life a little bit tenser, and maybe you're a little more on edge physically, and so you respond by negotiating harder. When you're sitting back in the soft chair, you're comfortable, soft chair, soft hard Who knows? And so if you ask the people when they were negotiating, what influenced you, nowhere on.

Well, it's great that you think that, and you're aware of it because we're not usually aware of it. There was another study that intrigued me. It was out of a business school, a professor who is now at the University of Michigan, and he was looking at negotiations. He was having people negotiate for a car, and I was theoretically of course, but during these car negotiations, he found that when people were sitting on hard chairs, they negotiated harder than when they were sitting on soft chairs. So what's going on there? Well, maybe when you're sitting on a hard chair, you're feeling edgy, there's some message that's coming from your body and your life a little bit tenser, and maybe you're a little more on edge physically, and so you respond by negotiating harder. When you're sitting back in the soft chair, you're comfortable, soft chair, soft hard Who knows? And so if you ask the people when they were negotiating, what influenced you, nowhere on.

The list would a chair, right, Yeah, you'd never think of it, And if you realized it, you initially might be appalled. Right. I think about these fundamental things that affect us that we don't think about. Now. One that I do know affects us. But I was just talking with my partner about it last night, and I've used this on the show a number of times, but it is how easily even the smallest amount of friction causes you to do or not do something. The classic example I give is my guitar. If my guitar is on the stand, I'm going to play it like ten times more than if it's in the same spot in a case right next to it. That's ridiculous. It takes three seconds to open the case. I mean, like, what kind of weird animal am I that that's the case. But I've learned not to fight it because it's unquestionably true. And so I think the point of learning some of these and I think we're going to get into a lot of them as we go into your book, is we can learn these little things that we can do with our bodies that are going to change how we feel overall.

The list would a chair, right, Yeah, you'd never think of it, And if you realized it, you initially might be appalled. Right. I think about these fundamental things that affect us that we don't think about. Now. One that I do know affects us. But I was just talking with my partner about it last night, and I've used this on the show a number of times, but it is how easily even the smallest amount of friction causes you to do or not do something. The classic example I give is my guitar. If my guitar is on the stand, I'm going to play it like ten times more than if it's in the same spot in a case right next to it. That's ridiculous. It takes three seconds to open the case. I mean, like, what kind of weird animal am I that that's the case. But I've learned not to fight it because it's unquestionably true. And so I think the point of learning some of these and I think we're going to get into a lot of them as we go into your book, is we can learn these little things that we can do with our bodies that are going to change how we feel overall.

Right.

Right.

You know, it's a very cold day here in Columbus, it is, and if we had not had this lovely session scheduled, I would not have left my hotel room this morning.

You know, it's a very cold day here in Columbus, it is, and if we had not had this lovely session scheduled, I would not have left my hotel room this morning.

Right.

Right.

You know, friction, certainly, weather influences how we behave, how we feel sure. I think that one we're usually a little more aware of at least.

You know, friction, certainly, weather influences how we behave, how we feel sure. I think that one we're usually a little more aware of at least.

So let's talk about how your body can make you happier. What are things we can do with our body that can improve our moods.

So let's talk about how your body can make you happier. What are things we can do with our body that can improve our moods.

Well, some of the things are really small, and we can do it right now. Everybody who's listening. Sit up a little bit straighter. Our stand up a little bit straighter. There's really good research showing that when you sit up straight, you are able to access positive emotions much more easily. When you're depressed, you naturally slouch. And so if you're slouched, just because that's how you're sitting, as your brain, as we said before, is scanning your body, it's going ooh, slouched, we must not be feeling so good today, And it becomes very easy to access negative emotions when you're in that position. And simply sit up a little straighter and it'll give you more access to positive feelings. There's been great research about smiling, and it goes way back to an early study that I'm sure you're familiar with, where people were told to put a wooden pencil in their mouth, and some of them held it in such a way that it made their facial muscles in a smiling position and some in this bounding position, and the people who were smiling ended up being happier and finding things funnier. And that research has challenged a lot. It's been done over and over again, but I think there are now one hundred and twenty eight studies around the world that have been looked at and it really holds up to be true. Now, you would like to think that your brain is smart enough to know the difference between a real smile and a wooden pencil in your mouth, but in fact it's kind of not. There's something called the facial feedback hypothesis, which says that the muscles in our face are constantly sending information and that's one of the ways our brains are figuring out how we feel. Well.

Well, some of the things are really small, and we can do it right now. Everybody who's listening. Sit up a little bit straighter. Our stand up a little bit straighter. There's really good research showing that when you sit up straight, you are able to access positive emotions much more easily. When you're depressed, you naturally slouch. And so if you're slouched, just because that's how you're sitting, as your brain, as we said before, is scanning your body, it's going ooh, slouched, we must not be feeling so good today, And it becomes very easy to access negative emotions when you're in that position. And simply sit up a little straighter and it'll give you more access to positive feelings. There's been great research about smiling, and it goes way back to an early study that I'm sure you're familiar with, where people were told to put a wooden pencil in their mouth, and some of them held it in such a way that it made their facial muscles in a smiling position and some in this bounding position, and the people who were smiling ended up being happier and finding things funnier. And that research has challenged a lot. It's been done over and over again, but I think there are now one hundred and twenty eight studies around the world that have been looked at and it really holds up to be true. Now, you would like to think that your brain is smart enough to know the difference between a real smile and a wooden pencil in your mouth, but in fact it's kind of not. There's something called the facial feedback hypothesis, which says that the muscles in our face are constantly sending information and that's one of the ways our brains are figuring out how we feel. Well.

It's one of the reasons that I'm not going to get this exactly right, but that botox can be used as an antidepressant because you can't frown with it right. It takes away your ability to make the frown, which somehow makes you better. And I'm always amazed by that smile one and again we're not talking about like I smile and my problems melt away. Right, we're talking about it's just a subtle thing. But I'm a big believer in feedback loops. I'm a big believer in upward and downward spirals, And if I feel a little bit better from a smile, then I might just feel good enough to do the next thing that I need to do that's going to be good for me, which is going to then amplify that. One of my mantras is little by little, a little becomes a lot. And so this idea of yeah, sure, a smile that makes you feel a little bit better, so what But it can be the beginning and you do that often enough and it turns into something really different.

It's one of the reasons that I'm not going to get this exactly right, but that botox can be used as an antidepressant because you can't frown with it right. It takes away your ability to make the frown, which somehow makes you better. And I'm always amazed by that smile one and again we're not talking about like I smile and my problems melt away. Right, we're talking about it's just a subtle thing. But I'm a big believer in feedback loops. I'm a big believer in upward and downward spirals, And if I feel a little bit better from a smile, then I might just feel good enough to do the next thing that I need to do that's going to be good for me, which is going to then amplify that. One of my mantras is little by little, a little becomes a lot. And so this idea of yeah, sure, a smile that makes you feel a little bit better, so what But it can be the beginning and you do that often enough and it turns into something really different.

I think that's a really good point to make, which is that we're not talking about dramatic changes in feeling or behavior by any of this, but it's really for most of us, it's those small changes on the edges that do make a difference. And I love that idea that you're suggesting that it all builds on itself, and that's absolutely true. I just mentioned the cold, but one of the other things that does make a difference that we can do with our bodies is to go outside. One of the big findings is that people feel better in nature. Your well being improves very dramatically when you're outside, and it happens to be that when you're near water. One study found that people who were near water two hours a week felt better and improve their well being. And it doesn't have to be by the ocean, if you're by a pond or a lake or a stream, or if you're somewhere inland and there's no such thing yet work. I was going to suggest just get one of those little electric windmills, you know waterfalls, those waterfalls that you can put in your living room and plug in. I try that. I actually think it's very calming. There's something about water that has a very calming effect.

I think that's a really good point to make, which is that we're not talking about dramatic changes in feeling or behavior by any of this, but it's really for most of us, it's those small changes on the edges that do make a difference. And I love that idea that you're suggesting that it all builds on itself, and that's absolutely true. I just mentioned the cold, but one of the other things that does make a difference that we can do with our bodies is to go outside. One of the big findings is that people feel better in nature. Your well being improves very dramatically when you're outside, and it happens to be that when you're near water. One study found that people who were near water two hours a week felt better and improve their well being. And it doesn't have to be by the ocean, if you're by a pond or a lake or a stream, or if you're somewhere inland and there's no such thing yet work. I was going to suggest just get one of those little electric windmills, you know waterfalls, those waterfalls that you can put in your living room and plug in. I try that. I actually think it's very calming. There's something about water that has a very calming effect.

Yeah. You reference in this chapter about you know how our body can make us happy. I always say her name wrong, but marvelous miss masl myself.

Yeah. You reference in this chapter about you know how our body can make us happy. I always say her name wrong, but marvelous miss masl myself.

I think it's missus me Basil.

I think it's missus me Basil.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know they have a line in there tits up because what her manager says to her before she goes out on stage. But it's really true, like you kind of perk up a little bit, and you know, stand in a certain way makes a difference.

You know they have a line in there tits up because what her manager says to her before she goes out on stage. But it's really true, like you kind of perk up a little bit, and you know, stand in a certain way makes a difference.

Right, Yeah, standing up straight, presenting yourself that you feel good tells your brain that you do feel good. It's very interesting that we are able to change how we feel, but we can't necessarily change the best at our body is sending. So let me give you an example about that. If you're like missus Masel and you're going out to do a stand up act and you're suddenly nervous about it, and you're again we're back to the chest pounding. If you tell yourself, oh, I'm actually calm, everything is fine, your brain is not going to buy that, right, brain is just not buying it. It's going excuse me, chest bounding, hand, sweaty. I don't think you're calm. But you can turn it around. You can take those symptoms and you say, well, what else do those symptoms mean? Those symptoms also mean excitement, So so hey, I'm really excited to go out on this stage. And so if you're interpreting those symptoms as anxiety and you're slouched over and you're scared and you're tense, that's going to be one presentation as you get on stage. But if you use body and brain and let your brain say okay, no, this is excitement and excitement means stand up, be ready, strut out on stage. Then that's going to be a completely different presentation.

Right, Yeah, standing up straight, presenting yourself that you feel good tells your brain that you do feel good. It's very interesting that we are able to change how we feel, but we can't necessarily change the best at our body is sending. So let me give you an example about that. If you're like missus Masel and you're going out to do a stand up act and you're suddenly nervous about it, and you're again we're back to the chest pounding. If you tell yourself, oh, I'm actually calm, everything is fine, your brain is not going to buy that, right, brain is just not buying it. It's going excuse me, chest bounding, hand, sweaty. I don't think you're calm. But you can turn it around. You can take those symptoms and you say, well, what else do those symptoms mean? Those symptoms also mean excitement, So so hey, I'm really excited to go out on this stage. And so if you're interpreting those symptoms as anxiety and you're slouched over and you're scared and you're tense, that's going to be one presentation as you get on stage. But if you use body and brain and let your brain say okay, no, this is excitement and excitement means stand up, be ready, strut out on stage. Then that's going to be a completely different presentation.

Yeah, And I think that's the thing that I come back to as I go through your book again and again, is this dance between the two because what you just described there as a cognitive approach to a feeling that's coming up. Right, the feeling is generating something, but I'm choosing to think about that feeling in a particular way. And yet there's plenty of other cases where we've talked about where there's a signal coming that never even becomes conscious, that is affecting us. And so it's how do we use our body and our brain? And I think it brings together your two books to make ourselves feel beat.

Yeah, And I think that's the thing that I come back to as I go through your book again and again, is this dance between the two because what you just described there as a cognitive approach to a feeling that's coming up. Right, the feeling is generating something, but I'm choosing to think about that feeling in a particular way. And yet there's plenty of other cases where we've talked about where there's a signal coming that never even becomes conscious, that is affecting us. And so it's how do we use our body and our brain? And I think it brings together your two books to make ourselves feel beat.

Yes, And I think so often we just don't have that awareness. For most people, we live entirely in our brains, and so we're not aware of those signals that are coming. And so, yeah, some of them are so subtle that it's really hard to understand, like the hot coffee we were talking about before, for the hard chair, but being able to put yourself in a position where you do say, okay, this is how I'm feeling, But how can I give that a little twist that's going to make this situation better. And you know that works. If you're going in to ask your boss for a raise, or if you're giving a toast at a friend's wedding, think of it a little bit differently. Think, no, I'm not worried that I'm going to blow this toast and be embarrassed and everybody'll laugh at me. I'm feeling this way because I care about these people and I want to do my best, and I want to let them know how much I love them.

Yes, And I think so often we just don't have that awareness. For most people, we live entirely in our brains, and so we're not aware of those signals that are coming. And so, yeah, some of them are so subtle that it's really hard to understand, like the hot coffee we were talking about before, for the hard chair, but being able to put yourself in a position where you do say, okay, this is how I'm feeling, But how can I give that a little twist that's going to make this situation better. And you know that works. If you're going in to ask your boss for a raise, or if you're giving a toast at a friend's wedding, think of it a little bit differently. Think, no, I'm not worried that I'm going to blow this toast and be embarrassed and everybody'll laugh at me. I'm feeling this way because I care about these people and I want to do my best, and I want to let them know how much I love them.

And my body's preparing me for action. Right. This body piece is why I've dealt with depression on and off throughout my adult life. It's been largely well managed once I kind of got out of my twenties. I use a lot of different things to work with it. But if you forced me to say you only get one, Eric, you can only have one, the one I would choose would be exercise, which is a body thing. But it's that because when I exercise, my body feels better, which then the signal that's going to my brain is a more positive signal. And we can see the exact opposite that when you're sick, My brain turns particularly dark when I'm sick, right, I just have to tell myself, like, just don't believe your brain today, you're sick. No time for existential crisis, no big decisions, just And it's all because, to use the term that you use in your book, the entoception, my internal sense of how my body feels feels lousy, and that translates to lousy in the brain.

And my body's preparing me for action. Right. This body piece is why I've dealt with depression on and off throughout my adult life. It's been largely well managed once I kind of got out of my twenties. I use a lot of different things to work with it. But if you forced me to say you only get one, Eric, you can only have one, the one I would choose would be exercise, which is a body thing. But it's that because when I exercise, my body feels better, which then the signal that's going to my brain is a more positive signal. And we can see the exact opposite that when you're sick, My brain turns particularly dark when I'm sick, right, I just have to tell myself, like, just don't believe your brain today, you're sick. No time for existential crisis, no big decisions, just And it's all because, to use the term that you use in your book, the entoception, my internal sense of how my body feels feels lousy, and that translates to lousy in the brain.

Absolutely. And I so agree with you about the exercise of depression. And there's been a lot of studies on that and it is very, very powerful. And of course when you're feeling depressed getting yourself up to exercise, it's a it's a I agree and even I find it, you know, even when I'm not in a bad mood, just making myself exercise is sometimes hard, and I always wonder why, because as soon as I do it, as soon as I get in from a walk or get off the treadmill or the elliptical or the exercise bike or whatever I've used that day, I feel great.

Absolutely. And I so agree with you about the exercise of depression. And there's been a lot of studies on that and it is very, very powerful. And of course when you're feeling depressed getting yourself up to exercise, it's a it's a I agree and even I find it, you know, even when I'm not in a bad mood, just making myself exercise is sometimes hard, and I always wonder why, because as soon as I do it, as soon as I get in from a walk or get off the treadmill or the elliptical or the exercise bike or whatever I've used that day, I feel great.

I asked that question for years on the podcast because I was like, every time I do it, I feel better. Every single time, I'm like, I'm glad I did that. You would think if you understand reward learning theory, that I would run to exercise. I think that what I've gotten from evolutionary psychologists is sort of even more important than reward learning theory. Is basic like law of leased effort. Like as an animal, your job is to conserve energy, and anything that takes a big amount of energy is going to face some degree of resistance.

I asked that question for years on the podcast because I was like, every time I do it, I feel better. Every single time, I'm like, I'm glad I did that. You would think if you understand reward learning theory, that I would run to exercise. I think that what I've gotten from evolutionary psychologists is sort of even more important than reward learning theory. Is basic like law of leased effort. Like as an animal, your job is to conserve energy, and anything that takes a big amount of energy is going to face some degree of resistance.

Right, And I talk about that in the book too. There's a wonderful book called Exercised by a professor at Harvard who is an anthropologist, and he looks at that and you know, he explains that any hunter gatherer worth his salt would not run a marathon. You know, that's just a crazy thing to do.

Right, And I talk about that in the book too. There's a wonderful book called Exercised by a professor at Harvard who is an anthropologist, and he looks at that and you know, he explains that any hunter gatherer worth his salt would not run a marathon. You know, that's just a crazy thing to do.

Precisely, you've got to be balancing reward versus effort. You know, You've got a great story in the book that shows how our physical response often precedes our brain. And it has to do with you and your husband in a car together. Would you share that story with us?

Precisely, you've got to be balancing reward versus effort. You know, You've got a great story in the book that shows how our physical response often precedes our brain. And it has to do with you and your husband in a car together. Would you share that story with us?

Yeah, my husband hates that story, but he's not here, but it's absolutely true because he is usually the driver when we're in the car, and he's a good driver. But you know, when you're driving a lot or I guess when you're a guy driving, you tend to sometimes drive a little too faster, get a little too close to a car, and I will always gasp when he's too close or he puts on the break, I'll go and it really annoys him. Sure, it just annoys him. And as I was doing this book, I realized that what I have always known, but I now had the research to show it. I'm not gasping on purpose. I'm not thinking first, oh my goodness, you're going too fast, or you know, got a little close to that car, and then gasping to give him the information. My body is responding. My body is responding in a moment of fear. Now, if I could actually stop that gasp before it happened, I would because it's not worth the argument that follows in the car. Right, But yes, that is an example.

Yeah, my husband hates that story, but he's not here, but it's absolutely true because he is usually the driver when we're in the car, and he's a good driver. But you know, when you're driving a lot or I guess when you're a guy driving, you tend to sometimes drive a little too faster, get a little too close to a car, and I will always gasp when he's too close or he puts on the break, I'll go and it really annoys him. Sure, it just annoys him. And as I was doing this book, I realized that what I have always known, but I now had the research to show it. I'm not gasping on purpose. I'm not thinking first, oh my goodness, you're going too fast, or you know, got a little close to that car, and then gasping to give him the information. My body is responding. My body is responding in a moment of fear. Now, if I could actually stop that gasp before it happened, I would because it's not worth the argument that follows in the car. Right, But yes, that is an example.

That's a great example. Like if I'm in the passenger seat and somebody's driving in a particular way, there are times I cannot help my foot like mimicking it's on the brake, pedal, right, it just does it because it's just you know, that's the habitual response.

That's a great example. Like if I'm in the passenger seat and somebody's driving in a particular way, there are times I cannot help my foot like mimicking it's on the brake, pedal, right, it just does it because it's just you know, that's the habitual response.

Right.

Right.

The other funny thing with driving is the opposite of that or sort of what you're describing that physical response where I talk about I think I tell the story in the Book of Driving and there was a small child in the back seat with me and he was saying, which is the break? Is it on the right or the left? And I'm trying to drive and uh, okay, I guess it's uh And now are you putting your foot on the brake? Are you putting it on the left foot of the right foot? And you completely cannot drive when somebody is making you think about it that way, because it's just not how you think your body is responding to that. So that's a little bit different than what we're talking about, but it is. It is those physical responses.

The other funny thing with driving is the opposite of that or sort of what you're describing that physical response where I talk about I think I tell the story in the Book of Driving and there was a small child in the back seat with me and he was saying, which is the break? Is it on the right or the left? And I'm trying to drive and uh, okay, I guess it's uh And now are you putting your foot on the brake? Are you putting it on the left foot of the right foot? And you completely cannot drive when somebody is making you think about it that way, because it's just not how you think your body is responding to that. So that's a little bit different than what we're talking about, but it is. It is those physical responses.

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative. To take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect what's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect it. Can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good Wolves together. That story about you and your husband comes from the chapter about senses. What are some other ways that we can use our senses to improve our mood or our happiness?

So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder. Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action and integration. It can be transformative. To take a minute to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause and reflect what's your one big insight so far and how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously, just take a second, pause the audio and reflect it. Can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop and be present, can't it. If you want to keep this momentum going that you built with this little exercise, i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders SMS list. I'll shoot you two texts a week with insightful little prompts and wisdom from podcast guests. They're a nice little nudge to stop and be present in your life, and they're a helpful way to not get lost in the busyness and forget what is important. You can join at oneufeed dot net slash sms and if you don't like them, you can get off a list really easily. So far, there are over one and seventy two others from the one you feed community on the list, and we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed our good Wolves together. That story about you and your husband comes from the chapter about senses. What are some other ways that we can use our senses to improve our mood or our happiness?

I think we don't always realize the power of touch. You and I have the pleasure of being in the same studio right now. So much of our lives lately is on zoom and is remote, and because for very good reasons, we've you know, become fearful of touching people. And touch is a very powerful mood changer and a very powerful we need touch as human beings. And a positive story about my husband and he's a wonderful man.

I think we don't always realize the power of touch. You and I have the pleasure of being in the same studio right now. So much of our lives lately is on zoom and is remote, and because for very good reasons, we've you know, become fearful of touching people. And touch is a very powerful mood changer and a very powerful we need touch as human beings. And a positive story about my husband and he's a wonderful man.

I adore him, but don't I'm just kidding.

I adore him, but don't I'm just kidding.

We had some silly argument one night and not terribly long ago, and we got into bed and I could, you know, if you can feel that tension with your partner sometimes, and and I thought we can have the twenty minute discussion of what just happened, and nobody was right or wrong, it was just something silly, and instead I just reached over and touched his arm and just rubbed his arm for a moment, and I could feel all the tension just disappear from the room and we just you know, we were able to Then it was gone. There was nothing further that needed to be discussed. We both fell asleep very happy, and and I think that power of touch and of letting somebody know how you feel that way is really important.

We had some silly argument one night and not terribly long ago, and we got into bed and I could, you know, if you can feel that tension with your partner sometimes, and and I thought we can have the twenty minute discussion of what just happened, and nobody was right or wrong, it was just something silly, and instead I just reached over and touched his arm and just rubbed his arm for a moment, and I could feel all the tension just disappear from the room and we just you know, we were able to Then it was gone. There was nothing further that needed to be discussed. We both fell asleep very happy, and and I think that power of touch and of letting somebody know how you feel that way is really important.

Yeah. I love that story. When I read it. So senses play a role. Our environment plays a role also. And you talk about places, and you reference a quote in the book that people often say, which is some variation of like wherever you go, there you are, meaning wherever you go, you take yourself with you. I was a drug addict in my early twenties, and I tried to move different places to try and suddenly I thought, if I just am somewhere else, it'll be different. And it didn't turn out to be different. And yet environment and where we are does play a role. Share a little bit more about that.

Yeah. I love that story. When I read it. So senses play a role. Our environment plays a role also. And you talk about places, and you reference a quote in the book that people often say, which is some variation of like wherever you go, there you are, meaning wherever you go, you take yourself with you. I was a drug addict in my early twenties, and I tried to move different places to try and suddenly I thought, if I just am somewhere else, it'll be different. And it didn't turn out to be different. And yet environment and where we are does play a role. Share a little bit more about that.

It does play a role. And I think what you said earlier about nothing is as dramatic as we like it to seem. So I can understand why drug addiction did not end by moving to a different place nicely. But maybe it had a smaller effect. Maybe in some places you felt or maybe in some places you were able to take a step forward that you might not have been able to.

It does play a role. And I think what you said earlier about nothing is as dramatic as we like it to seem. So I can understand why drug addiction did not end by moving to a different place nicely. But maybe it had a smaller effect. Maybe in some places you felt or maybe in some places you were able to take a step forward that you might not have been able to.

And with other support. What I will say for sure was avoiding certain places was really important. As I was getting sober and I had other support, it was really important that I not go to where I used to buy drugs. So place does play a role. Right, you know, so even in the same story I'm telling, and I can give you the flip side of it, where yeah, place.

And with other support. What I will say for sure was avoiding certain places was really important. As I was getting sober and I had other support, it was really important that I not go to where I used to buy drugs. So place does play a role. Right, you know, so even in the same story I'm telling, and I can give you the flip side of it, where yeah, place.

Matter, yeah, in less dramatic circumstances. The idea of wherever you go, you take yourself with you, I think is not true because you feel differently. If you're sitting in a dark room looking at a back alley, or you're sitting out on a beach looking at a vast horizon, you feel differently, and you're a different person and you have different experiences. There were some things that fascinated me on that score, in terms of how our senses are always working together with each other. And so there was that fascinating study out of the UK where a searcher set up three different rooms and he had them as dramatically different environments. One was meant to feel like the outdoors and one was meant to be like a jazz club and so forth. And he gave people glasses of whisky, and they were holding the glasses of whiskey as they moved from room to room, and after they had spent a certain amount of time in that room, they were asked to take a sip of the whisky and describe right down how they felt about the whisky, and the people described the whisky differently in each room that they were in. So when they were in the outdoorsy room, they described the whisky as tasting grassy, and when they were in the jazz room, they described it as tasting brassy. And they were picking up different subtleties in the whisky. And he pointed out that they were holding the whisky glass the entire time, so at the end of it, they knew nobody had been tricking them. They had been tricking themselves that how you experience something is affected by where you are. Now, we would think how something tastes shouldn't change depending on where you're drinking it or tasting it, but it does, and it tastes different depending on what the lighting is in the room. It tastes different depending on the color of the plate. I talk about another researcher who wrote a paper called the provencal Rose paradox, which is that wine always tastes betterse wine always tastes better in the south of France than it does anyplace else. And I've certainly discovered that with Paris. You know, you have a meal in Paris and it just is wonderful. Everything tastes good. Try to have the same meal at home not gonna taste as good. Because when you're in Paris, you're not just eating the food. You're eating the environment, you're taking in the beautiful cafe, the experience, the sense that you're in Paris, and so being aware that, yes, place does make a difference, and it does change how you experience things and how you feel about things is really important.

Matter, yeah, in less dramatic circumstances. The idea of wherever you go, you take yourself with you, I think is not true because you feel differently. If you're sitting in a dark room looking at a back alley, or you're sitting out on a beach looking at a vast horizon, you feel differently, and you're a different person and you have different experiences. There were some things that fascinated me on that score, in terms of how our senses are always working together with each other. And so there was that fascinating study out of the UK where a searcher set up three different rooms and he had them as dramatically different environments. One was meant to feel like the outdoors and one was meant to be like a jazz club and so forth. And he gave people glasses of whisky, and they were holding the glasses of whiskey as they moved from room to room, and after they had spent a certain amount of time in that room, they were asked to take a sip of the whisky and describe right down how they felt about the whisky, and the people described the whisky differently in each room that they were in. So when they were in the outdoorsy room, they described the whisky as tasting grassy, and when they were in the jazz room, they described it as tasting brassy. And they were picking up different subtleties in the whisky. And he pointed out that they were holding the whisky glass the entire time, so at the end of it, they knew nobody had been tricking them. They had been tricking themselves that how you experience something is affected by where you are. Now, we would think how something tastes shouldn't change depending on where you're drinking it or tasting it, but it does, and it tastes different depending on what the lighting is in the room. It tastes different depending on the color of the plate. I talk about another researcher who wrote a paper called the provencal Rose paradox, which is that wine always tastes betterse wine always tastes better in the south of France than it does anyplace else. And I've certainly discovered that with Paris. You know, you have a meal in Paris and it just is wonderful. Everything tastes good. Try to have the same meal at home not gonna taste as good. Because when you're in Paris, you're not just eating the food. You're eating the environment, you're taking in the beautiful cafe, the experience, the sense that you're in Paris, and so being aware that, yes, place does make a difference, and it does change how you experience things and how you feel about things is really important.

Yeah, you tell a story about being in Paris and going to the doctor.

Yeah, you tell a story about being in Paris and going to the doctor.

Right, I had an eye infection and we needed medicine. It was a very complicated story, and the pharmacy won't let you do it. You have to go to this doctor and we climb up these stairs and it was this ancient room and this ancient doctor, and we ended up spending half a day doing that. And at the end of the day I said, to again my beloved husband, that was so much fun, What a fun day that was. And he said, what are you talking about. You had to spend half the day dealing with medicine, And I said, it was such a great experience, wasn't it fascinating and fascinating to see that doctor and to go into that house and yes, so having a different experience, being in a different place can have such a different resonance than you would expect.