Where's my happy girl? Turn that fround around. If you don't have anything nice to say, I don't say anything at all. So there's an expectation that we will be helpful, that we will add value. Now add if you have a religious household or a very authoritarian household, I mean we are raised and praised to become a self abandoning codependence.

Where's my happy girl? Turn that fround around. If you don't have anything nice to say, I don't say anything at all. So there's an expectation that we will be helpful, that we will add value. Now add if you have a religious household or a very authoritarian household, I mean we are raised and praised to become a self abandoning codependence.

Fact, welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and care creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Fact, welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and care creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Have you ever found yourself doing something for someone else and wondered, am I doing this because I want to? Or because I feel like I have to. That question hit me hard. During my conversation with Terry Cole, psychotherapist and author of Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High function and Codependency, we talked about the fine line between kindness and people pleasing, and how sometimes what feels like generosity might actually be an attempt to control someone else's reaction or to avoid conflict altogether. In this episode, we explore why so many of us fall into this piece at any cost mentality, and the toll it takes on us. Terry offers powerful tools to help us break free from that compulsion, get clear on what we're really responsible for, and show up authentically in our relationships. If you've ever felt like kindness comes with strings, or wonder where to draw the line between helping and self abandonment, you're not gonna want to miss this one. Hi, Terry, welcome to the show.

Have you ever found yourself doing something for someone else and wondered, am I doing this because I want to? Or because I feel like I have to. That question hit me hard. During my conversation with Terry Cole, psychotherapist and author of Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High function and Codependency, we talked about the fine line between kindness and people pleasing, and how sometimes what feels like generosity might actually be an attempt to control someone else's reaction or to avoid conflict altogether. In this episode, we explore why so many of us fall into this piece at any cost mentality, and the toll it takes on us. Terry offers powerful tools to help us break free from that compulsion, get clear on what we're really responsible for, and show up authentically in our relationships. If you've ever felt like kindness comes with strings, or wonder where to draw the line between helping and self abandonment, you're not gonna want to miss this one. Hi, Terry, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having me Eric.

Well, thanks for having me Eric.

We're going to be discussing your new book, which is called Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. We'll get to that in a moment, but will start the way we normally do, which is with the parable in the parable There's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

We're going to be discussing your new book, which is called Too Much, A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. We'll get to that in a moment, but will start the way we normally do, which is with the parable in the parable There's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Well. I think it's true for all of us because as people, we are multi dimensional, and we all have a shadow side. And I sort of see the bad wolf to a degree as the shadow side of all of us. And I think we have to tend to the shadow, at least in my own life, and not feed it. So how it shows up in my life is being very aware of my own tendencies towards blame and being petty and all these things that I don't like about myself. Now they're not the predominant things about me, but there's truth in looking at my own shadow. What are the things that bug me about someone else? Oh? If I look hard, those things are definitely things that I possess. You know, who are the people that if I were to gossip, who would I gossip about? Oh, that's definitely a mirror coming back to me. So I've always loved that parable because I think it's so true, because it speaks to the human choice that we have, where doesn't really necessarily matter what hand you or doult in my quote unquote, I always felt like which one you feed determines what hand you go forward with. You know.

Well. I think it's true for all of us because as people, we are multi dimensional, and we all have a shadow side. And I sort of see the bad wolf to a degree as the shadow side of all of us. And I think we have to tend to the shadow, at least in my own life, and not feed it. So how it shows up in my life is being very aware of my own tendencies towards blame and being petty and all these things that I don't like about myself. Now they're not the predominant things about me, but there's truth in looking at my own shadow. What are the things that bug me about someone else? Oh? If I look hard, those things are definitely things that I possess. You know, who are the people that if I were to gossip, who would I gossip about? Oh, that's definitely a mirror coming back to me. So I've always loved that parable because I think it's so true, because it speaks to the human choice that we have, where doesn't really necessarily matter what hand you or doult in my quote unquote, I always felt like which one you feed determines what hand you go forward with. You know.

I love something you said in there, which is that I need to tend to that quote unquote bad wolf, but not feed it. And I think there's a lot of nuance in that. And I think the nuance is really really important because to either feed it or starve it are ends of extremes. You're trying to find somewhere in the middle. What would tend in it sort of look like for you in the moment you have the judgment of someone else. Let's just go with that one, because that one came up. What's that tending process actually look like inside your mind?

I love something you said in there, which is that I need to tend to that quote unquote bad wolf, but not feed it. And I think there's a lot of nuance in that. And I think the nuance is really really important because to either feed it or starve it are ends of extremes. You're trying to find somewhere in the middle. What would tend in it sort of look like for you in the moment you have the judgment of someone else. Let's just go with that one, because that one came up. What's that tending process actually look like inside your mind?

Well? Being honest, if someone blames me for something I feel like I haven't done, let's say so being honest, that that makes me mad, and I want to tell them all that things they did wrong and how it really was them now being in therapy for decades of my life, that's a moment, right, That's a moment that the bad wolf is like sticking his little nose up and being like, hmm, I'm going to tell them. But the moment passes that I don't tell them because then I move towards my higher abilities, which is compassion. What is that person afraid of right now? Why are they blaming me because they're feeling this constriction within them? Can I approach this compassionately? Or can I just not be reactive? Can I just not take it personally? Can I just can cut somebody a break? Like we're not perfect? We all do stuff that to me is the higher part of me, that's like, it's not about you. They're having a moment, And especially if it's someone in my life that I love, that I care about, that I have a relationship with. I don't need to die on like every hill. I don't need to be butt hurt about everything that happens.

Well? Being honest, if someone blames me for something I feel like I haven't done, let's say so being honest, that that makes me mad, and I want to tell them all that things they did wrong and how it really was them now being in therapy for decades of my life, that's a moment, right, That's a moment that the bad wolf is like sticking his little nose up and being like, hmm, I'm going to tell them. But the moment passes that I don't tell them because then I move towards my higher abilities, which is compassion. What is that person afraid of right now? Why are they blaming me because they're feeling this constriction within them? Can I approach this compassionately? Or can I just not be reactive? Can I just not take it personally? Can I just can cut somebody a break? Like we're not perfect? We all do stuff that to me is the higher part of me, that's like, it's not about you. They're having a moment, And especially if it's someone in my life that I love, that I care about, that I have a relationship with. I don't need to die on like every hill. I don't need to be butt hurt about everything that happens.

You know what, I mean, yeah, absolutely. So we're going to get into more of this as we get into your book. But I think there's something here I like to continue to expand upon. It's the idea of doing what you just said, which is pausing, thinking about it, and then coming up with a response. There are those of us who might identify as codependent, using the term that you use in your book. So who have the problem. Okay, I'm talking about.

You know what, I mean, yeah, absolutely. So we're going to get into more of this as we get into your book. But I think there's something here I like to continue to expand upon. It's the idea of doing what you just said, which is pausing, thinking about it, and then coming up with a response. There are those of us who might identify as codependent, using the term that you use in your book. So who have the problem. Okay, I'm talking about.

Me easier than third person.

Me easier than third person.

Just just exactly, somebody does something that bothers me. I pause, I wait, I think to myself, hang on, I want to see if this really is a big deal or not. Is this a hill? I want to die on all that which is good, and I'm actually really good at that. The problem often is that the thing loses its emotional energy, though, and then I just don't bring it up. I don't deal with it. I avoid it. So how do we find that thing where we're not reacting but we're also not ignoring It's funny.

Just just exactly, somebody does something that bothers me. I pause, I wait, I think to myself, hang on, I want to see if this really is a big deal or not. Is this a hill? I want to die on all that which is good, and I'm actually really good at that. The problem often is that the thing loses its emotional energy, though, and then I just don't bring it up. I don't deal with it. I avoid it. So how do we find that thing where we're not reacting but we're also not ignoring It's funny.

I was just thinking about something that happened between my husband and I the other day. We've been together for twenty seven years, and he said something and I felt like he was blaming me for something like the way he told that he said it. I just straight up asked, or are you blaming me for that? Do you feel like that's my fault? I just honestly asked, and he said no, No, I really wasn't. I was just pointing out that you're the last one to move the car, but it wasn't a blame thing. And I was like, okay, So I feel like by me asking that question, I'm telling him, Hey, this is what I heard, and he was like, Hey, that's not what I meant. And we have a very durable, extremely long relationship, so we just go, Okay, I know what you're saying, though, Eric, about when are we hiding our heads in the sand? When are we sweeping something under the rug? And I think that what you can do to know where you're doing this and then we can walk through what to do instead is I think it's really helpful for people to do a resentment inventory, really just get honest about how we feel, like who are we holding resentment for in our lives? And a lot of times we're doing it so sort of seamlessly and unconsciously. It's like in the basement, as I like to say that, we're like not even really aware, but these resentments become cumulative and it almost like before you know it, you're in this like low key state of annoyance, like we're just waiting for something to happen. So someone cut you off in traffic so you can be like, ow, you know, there will be an explosion. So once you look at and you go okay, you know, actually I'm feeling resemble about from my adult child who borrowed money that they haven't repaid or whatever the thing is for you, then we have to look and go, Okay, what is my fifty percent of this situation that I found myself in? What is it in that situation? My fifty percent perhaps if I was an adult, you know, and had an adult child that I lent money to who didn't give it back to me, and that was the expectation or the agreement. My fifty percent is not saying anything right. My fifty percent is letting it slide and being like, ah, maybe they don't really have the money right, making excuses for them. That's my fifty percent. So there are resentments and doing a resentment inventory, this becomes a GPS for what relationships need our attention or what situations need our attention because it's telling us that circumstance, situation, or interaction is leaving me with this residual feeling that I do not like and that is not going to go away. By the way, So you know, just because shit is inconvenient, feelings are inconvenient. Just because we don't like them doesn't mean they go away. They don't, and so we don't want those things festering. I feel like the less we can let grass grow under it. And even if it's just for clarity, Like I said to my husband, like, this is what it sounds like. And I wasn't mad or defensive or sarcastic. I was literally saying, this is what I got from that. And he was like, no, that's really not what I'm in and I don't blame you for it. I was like, okay. So it can be an easy conversation or a hard conversation depending on the person. But the most important part about this ERIC is that we are responsible for how we feel. We are responsible, and when we're codependent and high functioning codependent, we feel that we're responsible for the way other people feel. And this gets incredibly complicated.

I was just thinking about something that happened between my husband and I the other day. We've been together for twenty seven years, and he said something and I felt like he was blaming me for something like the way he told that he said it. I just straight up asked, or are you blaming me for that? Do you feel like that's my fault? I just honestly asked, and he said no, No, I really wasn't. I was just pointing out that you're the last one to move the car, but it wasn't a blame thing. And I was like, okay, So I feel like by me asking that question, I'm telling him, Hey, this is what I heard, and he was like, Hey, that's not what I meant. And we have a very durable, extremely long relationship, so we just go, Okay, I know what you're saying, though, Eric, about when are we hiding our heads in the sand? When are we sweeping something under the rug? And I think that what you can do to know where you're doing this and then we can walk through what to do instead is I think it's really helpful for people to do a resentment inventory, really just get honest about how we feel, like who are we holding resentment for in our lives? And a lot of times we're doing it so sort of seamlessly and unconsciously. It's like in the basement, as I like to say that, we're like not even really aware, but these resentments become cumulative and it almost like before you know it, you're in this like low key state of annoyance, like we're just waiting for something to happen. So someone cut you off in traffic so you can be like, ow, you know, there will be an explosion. So once you look at and you go okay, you know, actually I'm feeling resemble about from my adult child who borrowed money that they haven't repaid or whatever the thing is for you, then we have to look and go, Okay, what is my fifty percent of this situation that I found myself in? What is it in that situation? My fifty percent perhaps if I was an adult, you know, and had an adult child that I lent money to who didn't give it back to me, and that was the expectation or the agreement. My fifty percent is not saying anything right. My fifty percent is letting it slide and being like, ah, maybe they don't really have the money right, making excuses for them. That's my fifty percent. So there are resentments and doing a resentment inventory, this becomes a GPS for what relationships need our attention or what situations need our attention because it's telling us that circumstance, situation, or interaction is leaving me with this residual feeling that I do not like and that is not going to go away. By the way, So you know, just because shit is inconvenient, feelings are inconvenient. Just because we don't like them doesn't mean they go away. They don't, and so we don't want those things festering. I feel like the less we can let grass grow under it. And even if it's just for clarity, Like I said to my husband, like, this is what it sounds like. And I wasn't mad or defensive or sarcastic. I was literally saying, this is what I got from that. And he was like, no, that's really not what I'm in and I don't blame you for it. I was like, okay. So it can be an easy conversation or a hard conversation depending on the person. But the most important part about this ERIC is that we are responsible for how we feel. We are responsible, and when we're codependent and high functioning codependent, we feel that we're responsible for the way other people feel. And this gets incredibly complicated.

That resentment index is not something I've heard in a while. However, I have done a number of them in my life because they are part of the twelve steps that's part of the fourth step inventory that we're encouraged to do. I love what you said there, though, because the way that this resentment index is presented, at least in a lot of the meetings I was in, was the idea that whatever the resentment was, it's somehow your fault that you have a resentment. And I love the idea that you say, what's my fifty percent because that allows me to acknowledge there's actually a reasonable reason that I have this resentment.

That resentment index is not something I've heard in a while. However, I have done a number of them in my life because they are part of the twelve steps that's part of the fourth step inventory that we're encouraged to do. I love what you said there, though, because the way that this resentment index is presented, at least in a lot of the meetings I was in, was the idea that whatever the resentment was, it's somehow your fault that you have a resentment. And I love the idea that you say, what's my fifty percent because that allows me to acknowledge there's actually a reasonable reason that I have this resentment.

End.

End.

Then further, it is my responsibility, right if I don't want to live with its emotional energy to find a way to let it go.

Then further, it is my responsibility, right if I don't want to live with its emotional energy to find a way to let it go.

Yes, And I want to add something if I'm made to that Yes. Another really important part of this is when we are having an emotional response to something, is for us to know ourselves, right, is for us to go, huh, I'm feeling activated. Right. I don't love to use the word trigger the way that it's used everywhere, because from a psychotherapeutic point of view, when we say a trigger, we're really talking about actual trauma, right, And we can be activated by things that were just painful, not things that we thought we were going to die. Right. So, just for my own I talk and I write about it in the book as being activated. And it's important that we look at what are our own activation points. Right, If you grew up with a very punitive parent, maybe a punitive mother, you may be very sensitive to people giving you, even if it were constructive criticism, it might feel mean, it might feel like too much. So I have this little thing that people can do if you find yourself in a situation where you're like, oh, I think my response might have been amplified compared to what this is. What does it mean? It means you might be having a transference, right, you might be experiencing something at current time that's being fueled by the unresolved injury from the past. So to make that layman's terms, to make it easy, I just created these three questions that we can ask ourselves if we're in that situation, which is right now, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? And how or why is this behavioral dynamic the way I'm relating to this person? How is that familiar to me and what gets revealed. And I'll give you a quick example of this if I may. I was in my grad school internship and the guy who ran the place was a very fancy addiction doctor, doctor Arnold Washington was his name. And I couldn't stand this guy. I didn't realize how irrational it was, but I really just was like, Oh, he's a jerk. He's so cold, he's so judgmental. I would avoid him. If he was in the hallway, I would jump into the ladies room, if he was in a meeting, I wouldn't talk. It was the whole thing. So I was talking to my therapist about it and she was like, so, how would you describe him? And I was like, oh, you know the day Brooks brother suit wearing Wall Street Journal read and Martini swigging, golfing on the weekends. You know, the guy in the Bermuda shorts. That guy. And she was like, Okay, who else would you describe exactly like that? And I was like, Oh, my god, how embarrassing my father, who I grew up terrified of. Oh, because She's like, Terry, listen, you are literally turning into a ten year old every time you're around this guy, So why is that bad? Because don't you want a job after you get out of school at this place, Which if you never let him see how smart you are, you're never going to get hired. Obviously, bring in your unresolved ten year old self to any situations probably not going to give you the best result. That I was having a transference, and so it could be something that reminds you of something. This guy just reminded me so much of my father. The way he looked his physicality, he had dimples, the same kind of voice like. It was uncanny, very quiet. But as soon as that reality came in that she helped me see I was able to completely be my grown up self around him. I did get hired after my internship was over. But that's an example of having a transference that a lot of times it's so real I didn't even know. And I was already studying to be a therapist at that point, and I still didn't know.

Yes, And I want to add something if I'm made to that Yes. Another really important part of this is when we are having an emotional response to something, is for us to know ourselves, right, is for us to go, huh, I'm feeling activated. Right. I don't love to use the word trigger the way that it's used everywhere, because from a psychotherapeutic point of view, when we say a trigger, we're really talking about actual trauma, right, And we can be activated by things that were just painful, not things that we thought we were going to die. Right. So, just for my own I talk and I write about it in the book as being activated. And it's important that we look at what are our own activation points. Right, If you grew up with a very punitive parent, maybe a punitive mother, you may be very sensitive to people giving you, even if it were constructive criticism, it might feel mean, it might feel like too much. So I have this little thing that people can do if you find yourself in a situation where you're like, oh, I think my response might have been amplified compared to what this is. What does it mean? It means you might be having a transference, right, you might be experiencing something at current time that's being fueled by the unresolved injury from the past. So to make that layman's terms, to make it easy, I just created these three questions that we can ask ourselves if we're in that situation, which is right now, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? And how or why is this behavioral dynamic the way I'm relating to this person? How is that familiar to me and what gets revealed. And I'll give you a quick example of this if I may. I was in my grad school internship and the guy who ran the place was a very fancy addiction doctor, doctor Arnold Washington was his name. And I couldn't stand this guy. I didn't realize how irrational it was, but I really just was like, Oh, he's a jerk. He's so cold, he's so judgmental. I would avoid him. If he was in the hallway, I would jump into the ladies room, if he was in a meeting, I wouldn't talk. It was the whole thing. So I was talking to my therapist about it and she was like, so, how would you describe him? And I was like, oh, you know the day Brooks brother suit wearing Wall Street Journal read and Martini swigging, golfing on the weekends. You know, the guy in the Bermuda shorts. That guy. And she was like, Okay, who else would you describe exactly like that? And I was like, Oh, my god, how embarrassing my father, who I grew up terrified of. Oh, because She's like, Terry, listen, you are literally turning into a ten year old every time you're around this guy, So why is that bad? Because don't you want a job after you get out of school at this place, Which if you never let him see how smart you are, you're never going to get hired. Obviously, bring in your unresolved ten year old self to any situations probably not going to give you the best result. That I was having a transference, and so it could be something that reminds you of something. This guy just reminded me so much of my father. The way he looked his physicality, he had dimples, the same kind of voice like. It was uncanny, very quiet. But as soon as that reality came in that she helped me see I was able to completely be my grown up self around him. I did get hired after my internship was over. But that's an example of having a transference that a lot of times it's so real I didn't even know. And I was already studying to be a therapist at that point, and I still didn't know.

Yeah, my version of that is similar to yours. And it took me a while to figure out, which was if there was any man who was older than me or in an authority position, and they started to look irritated. They didn't even have to say anything. I got afraid. I shrunk. Now, I did a lot of work on working with my father, and what I found for me is it hasn't eliminated it. It still will start to rise up. Yeah, I haven't seen to be able to completely unhook it, but it will rise up. But I know it really well now, And I go, why am I feeling this way? And you know, let's say I'm giving a talk to people and there's one guy in the audience who looks all happy. Totally, He's all I see from now on, I want to start tailoring my talk to him.

Yeah, my version of that is similar to yours. And it took me a while to figure out, which was if there was any man who was older than me or in an authority position, and they started to look irritated. They didn't even have to say anything. I got afraid. I shrunk. Now, I did a lot of work on working with my father, and what I found for me is it hasn't eliminated it. It still will start to rise up. Yeah, I haven't seen to be able to completely unhook it, but it will rise up. But I know it really well now, And I go, why am I feeling this way? And you know, let's say I'm giving a talk to people and there's one guy in the audience who looks all happy. Totally, He's all I see from now on, I want to start tailoring my talk to him.

Totally.

Totally.

So now I can see it and just be like, all right, all right, this is what's happening, you know, stay on course here.

So now I can see it and just be like, all right, all right, this is what's happening, you know, stay on course here.

But let's talk about that, because I think you bring up a really good point, Eric of how when we get into recovery from being high functioning, codependence, from being in anything right, any kind of recovery, it doesn't mean that we don't still have these feels. Right. It's just like me being in recovery for alcohol, I don't never want to drink. I just don't drink, right, I just changed my behavior because that behavior was going to ruin my life. So with codependency and overfunctioning and overgiving and all the things, it isn't that you'll never feel like you want to please the random stern dude in the audience. Right. You may still have that feeling the differences, you don't go all the way down the rabbit hole with it. Right. I look at my relationship to my father because I certainly have a father wound. I'm writing a book about father wounds now.

But let's talk about that, because I think you bring up a really good point, Eric of how when we get into recovery from being high functioning, codependence, from being in anything right, any kind of recovery, it doesn't mean that we don't still have these feels. Right. It's just like me being in recovery for alcohol, I don't never want to drink. I just don't drink, right, I just changed my behavior because that behavior was going to ruin my life. So with codependency and overfunctioning and overgiving and all the things, it isn't that you'll never feel like you want to please the random stern dude in the audience. Right. You may still have that feeling the differences, you don't go all the way down the rabbit hole with it. Right. I look at my relationship to my father because I certainly have a father wound. I'm writing a book about father wounds now.

Oh, I can't wait to read it.

Oh, I can't wait to read it.

Yeah, I should interview you for it. I'm actually writing it right now, glad. But you know, I think about what is the residual effect of even healing this father wound, which I have done, is that it has inextricably impacted who I am. It has woven into the tapestry, the unique and beautiful tapestry of my life. The way that it shows up now is maybe I'm watching a Christmas commercial that has like a daddy daughter thing, and maybe I'll be a little bit more choked up than someone who didn't have that.

Yeah, I should interview you for it. I'm actually writing it right now, glad. But you know, I think about what is the residual effect of even healing this father wound, which I have done, is that it has inextricably impacted who I am. It has woven into the tapestry, the unique and beautiful tapestry of my life. The way that it shows up now is maybe I'm watching a Christmas commercial that has like a daddy daughter thing, and maybe I'll be a little bit more choked up than someone who didn't have that.

Yes, my partner knows this. If there is a tender scene between father and a son and for that, it doesn't matter how sentimental or stupid they you know, I know what they're trying to do, and yet it's just working. I start tearing up totally.

Yes, my partner knows this. If there is a tender scene between father and a son and for that, it doesn't matter how sentimental or stupid they you know, I know what they're trying to do, and yet it's just working. I start tearing up totally.

But again there's this acceptance, and you know, Eric, it's like, those are the things in a way that make us uniquely gifted, skilled, talented to do the things that we do in the world. Right I'm trying to help other people with father wounds because I know that it's possible to I'm helping other people with this book to stop being high functioning codependents because I know that their lives are going to be so much better. On the other side, if I didn't suffer the things I suffered in my life, and I don't think I suffered any more than anybody else, but I mean just the regular life, I wouldn't be in this unique position to really deeply understand, first of all, how painful it is when we have these wounds that are unhealed, and that how walking around unprotected is what it feels like right where any rejection, you know, when I was in my twenties, let's say, could be like this is devastating. It doesn't matter who the hell it was coming from, Like it was so much fear of rejection because of my father wound, you know. And it's funny I see this with my therapy clients now and over the many years, and I would say, before we're worrying about whether this person is rejecting you, can we decide whether you even like them? Like, how about we start from here. It can't just be that rejection from anyone is horrible, Like no, maybe it's protection, like we don't even know.

But again there's this acceptance, and you know, Eric, it's like, those are the things in a way that make us uniquely gifted, skilled, talented to do the things that we do in the world. Right I'm trying to help other people with father wounds because I know that it's possible to I'm helping other people with this book to stop being high functioning codependents because I know that their lives are going to be so much better. On the other side, if I didn't suffer the things I suffered in my life, and I don't think I suffered any more than anybody else, but I mean just the regular life, I wouldn't be in this unique position to really deeply understand, first of all, how painful it is when we have these wounds that are unhealed, and that how walking around unprotected is what it feels like right where any rejection, you know, when I was in my twenties, let's say, could be like this is devastating. It doesn't matter who the hell it was coming from, Like it was so much fear of rejection because of my father wound, you know. And it's funny I see this with my therapy clients now and over the many years, and I would say, before we're worrying about whether this person is rejecting you, can we decide whether you even like them? Like, how about we start from here. It can't just be that rejection from anyone is horrible, Like no, maybe it's protection, like we don't even know.

Yeah, so let's move towards codependency in your book. Here, I'm gonna get my biases out upfront.

Yeah, so let's move towards codependency in your book. Here, I'm gonna get my biases out upfront.

Here.

Here.

I got sober in nineteen ninety five four Codependent No More was relatively new to the scene, and I saw a couple of different things happen in that era that I think have shaped me. One was I was in a twelve step program for alcohol and there was an idea that was brought up there that really made a lot of sense to me, and it was that selfishness, self centeredness was the root of my problem. I was able to see on some level how that was true. So there was this sense of, you know, in what cases is it useful to de center myself? And then at the same time, I also saw the tough love movement that sort of came out of this that seemed in some cases to justify some pretty lousy behavior from the people who were codependent towards the attics. And I have some of the tendencies of this codependency. So all of those three things make me initially react to I don't like that word. I don't want to use it as a concept. So again, I just think it's helpful to sort of say, you know, here's where I am. All that said, I found the book really really helpful. Talk to me about what you mean a high functioning codependent is?

I got sober in nineteen ninety five four Codependent No More was relatively new to the scene, and I saw a couple of different things happen in that era that I think have shaped me. One was I was in a twelve step program for alcohol and there was an idea that was brought up there that really made a lot of sense to me, and it was that selfishness, self centeredness was the root of my problem. I was able to see on some level how that was true. So there was this sense of, you know, in what cases is it useful to de center myself? And then at the same time, I also saw the tough love movement that sort of came out of this that seemed in some cases to justify some pretty lousy behavior from the people who were codependent towards the attics. And I have some of the tendencies of this codependency. So all of those three things make me initially react to I don't like that word. I don't want to use it as a concept. So again, I just think it's helpful to sort of say, you know, here's where I am. All that said, I found the book really really helpful. Talk to me about what you mean a high functioning codependent is?

Okay, Well, I'm going to start, if I may, with why did I even originate this term? Right, codependency has been well established. The problem is codependency is not well understood, and so in my therapy practice, it was predominantly masters of the universe women and women like me, highly capable, highly successful career women, CEO CFOs, pop stars like Broadway people like it was just women doing it all. So if I would say, oh, hey, what you're describing in your relationship, this is a codependent pattern that I see, immediately they would reject dependent. Wait, excuse me, I'm not dependent on squat terry. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making all the moves, in charge of all the emotional labor. And my family, I take care of the kids. And my parents like, what are you talking about? And I realized they did not know what codependency was, mostly being very influenced by the myths around codependent No more melody Baby, the thought that I'm not involved with an alcoholic. This is how many people would say to me, I'm not enabling an addict. I'm like, okay, you don't have to be. So my problem was this, how can I help them with their behavioral problem if they do not see themselves in the behavioral problem. So when I added high functioning, and then I started looking and I was like, you know what, here's the thing. This is a different flavor of codependency, because first of all, you teach what you most need to learn. It was my personal flavor of codependency, and I saw it. It's almost like codependency for the modern person, the person who is doing too much, the person who is overscheduled, the person who feels over the responsible. So my definition, let's do that. A codependency is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the circumstances, finances, careers of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace. So as good human beings, as brothers and lovers and partners and all the things that we are. Obviously we love our people, we want them to be happy. But when you're a high functioning codependent or HFC as we call it, it's more than wanting. It's feeling responsible for so At its foundation, any codependency garden variety, high functioning is an overt or covert desire to control someone else's outcome. I don't want you to feel bad you come home in a bad mood. I'm in a great mood. You're my partner. I don't want you to feel about What can I make you a drink? I was going to make your favorite meal. Oh do you want to watch something funny like? I don't want you to be in a bad mood. That's me trying to control of your mood, even if I say, and I know my heart certainly when I was younger was in the right place. Anyway, back to my clients, when I changed the Moniker. All of them could suddenly go, oh, my god, the problem it's me Like they would not to quote Taylor, but I will. They got it. They were like, I am exhausted, I am burnt out, I am feeling resentful for what I'm doing. I do feel underappreciated in my workplace, or my home, or my relationship or my friendship group even right it could be anything. So now I could get to work with them because they weren't resisting. And what I noticed is that there are differences with high functioning codependence. We are also I am one, even though I'm in recovery, but we're very dialed into our environment. It's not just becoming codependent with the people in our lives right overly invested in what's going on with them and feeling like we need to help or change or send a book or hook them up with oncologist or whatever it is we need to do pay off their student loan debt. It's more than that, where I've come up with a whole list of behaviors that sort of go along with this, and I would start with feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems. That would be the beginning going above and beyond, giving till it hurts, doing stuff people are not even asking you to do. Always ready to jump into damage control mode because really we are amazing at a crisis, just saying that we have really good ideas and we're very loyal. Getting frustrated or angry when other people don't take our advice because you know we're going to talk to them for like three hours and then they're never going to do it. Feeling exhausted, feeling resentful, feeling bitter. There's also a hyper independence that comes along with being an HFC, where we really don't love to ask other people for help. Don't love it. I want to give to you, but I really don't eric want you to give to me, because then I might owe you, or then I might be vulnerable in a way that feels uncomfortable. In another way, we're also sort of trampling on the sovereignty of other people, whether we mean to or not. And it's funny. My first book was called Boundary Boston. It was all about boundaries, and so much of that was about how do we get other people to respect our boundaries? How do we uphold our boundaries? This book, I'm really coming from it from an honest point of view that if you are a high functioning codependent, you probably are an inadvertent boundary trampler. Not on purpose, but it's what happens, right, Because if I'm an auto advice giver, right, that's one of the behaviors. You're not even asking, And I'm like, but I have a great idea that you didn't ask me for. And even if you are asking, it's really more important what you think that you should do with your life than what I think you know. So what are the other behaviors? Being overly self sacrificing, auto accommodating, We see a need even in the wild, we just can't wait to move seats. We just can't wait to let you go in front of us. We just can't wait to make sure there's not going to be a problem anywhere. You know. Anticipatory planning is another behavior. We know we're going to be with somebody difficult, we want to make sure that we have the booze that they drink, or that they're not going to sit next to Uncle Jimmy because they hate them. It's like, instead of expecting people to be grown ups, we're literally like being the Marionette, the one moving the puppets.

Okay, Well, I'm going to start, if I may, with why did I even originate this term? Right, codependency has been well established. The problem is codependency is not well understood, and so in my therapy practice, it was predominantly masters of the universe women and women like me, highly capable, highly successful career women, CEO CFOs, pop stars like Broadway people like it was just women doing it all. So if I would say, oh, hey, what you're describing in your relationship, this is a codependent pattern that I see, immediately they would reject dependent. Wait, excuse me, I'm not dependent on squat terry. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making all the moves, in charge of all the emotional labor. And my family, I take care of the kids. And my parents like, what are you talking about? And I realized they did not know what codependency was, mostly being very influenced by the myths around codependent No more melody Baby, the thought that I'm not involved with an alcoholic. This is how many people would say to me, I'm not enabling an addict. I'm like, okay, you don't have to be. So my problem was this, how can I help them with their behavioral problem if they do not see themselves in the behavioral problem. So when I added high functioning, and then I started looking and I was like, you know what, here's the thing. This is a different flavor of codependency, because first of all, you teach what you most need to learn. It was my personal flavor of codependency, and I saw it. It's almost like codependency for the modern person, the person who is doing too much, the person who is overscheduled, the person who feels over the responsible. So my definition, let's do that. A codependency is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the circumstances, finances, careers of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace. So as good human beings, as brothers and lovers and partners and all the things that we are. Obviously we love our people, we want them to be happy. But when you're a high functioning codependent or HFC as we call it, it's more than wanting. It's feeling responsible for so At its foundation, any codependency garden variety, high functioning is an overt or covert desire to control someone else's outcome. I don't want you to feel bad you come home in a bad mood. I'm in a great mood. You're my partner. I don't want you to feel about What can I make you a drink? I was going to make your favorite meal. Oh do you want to watch something funny like? I don't want you to be in a bad mood. That's me trying to control of your mood, even if I say, and I know my heart certainly when I was younger was in the right place. Anyway, back to my clients, when I changed the Moniker. All of them could suddenly go, oh, my god, the problem it's me Like they would not to quote Taylor, but I will. They got it. They were like, I am exhausted, I am burnt out, I am feeling resentful for what I'm doing. I do feel underappreciated in my workplace, or my home, or my relationship or my friendship group even right it could be anything. So now I could get to work with them because they weren't resisting. And what I noticed is that there are differences with high functioning codependence. We are also I am one, even though I'm in recovery, but we're very dialed into our environment. It's not just becoming codependent with the people in our lives right overly invested in what's going on with them and feeling like we need to help or change or send a book or hook them up with oncologist or whatever it is we need to do pay off their student loan debt. It's more than that, where I've come up with a whole list of behaviors that sort of go along with this, and I would start with feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems. That would be the beginning going above and beyond, giving till it hurts, doing stuff people are not even asking you to do. Always ready to jump into damage control mode because really we are amazing at a crisis, just saying that we have really good ideas and we're very loyal. Getting frustrated or angry when other people don't take our advice because you know we're going to talk to them for like three hours and then they're never going to do it. Feeling exhausted, feeling resentful, feeling bitter. There's also a hyper independence that comes along with being an HFC, where we really don't love to ask other people for help. Don't love it. I want to give to you, but I really don't eric want you to give to me, because then I might owe you, or then I might be vulnerable in a way that feels uncomfortable. In another way, we're also sort of trampling on the sovereignty of other people, whether we mean to or not. And it's funny. My first book was called Boundary Boston. It was all about boundaries, and so much of that was about how do we get other people to respect our boundaries? How do we uphold our boundaries? This book, I'm really coming from it from an honest point of view that if you are a high functioning codependent, you probably are an inadvertent boundary trampler. Not on purpose, but it's what happens, right, Because if I'm an auto advice giver, right, that's one of the behaviors. You're not even asking, And I'm like, but I have a great idea that you didn't ask me for. And even if you are asking, it's really more important what you think that you should do with your life than what I think you know. So what are the other behaviors? Being overly self sacrificing, auto accommodating, We see a need even in the wild, we just can't wait to move seats. We just can't wait to let you go in front of us. We just can't wait to make sure there's not going to be a problem anywhere. You know. Anticipatory planning is another behavior. We know we're going to be with somebody difficult, we want to make sure that we have the booze that they drink, or that they're not going to sit next to Uncle Jimmy because they hate them. It's like, instead of expecting people to be grown ups, we're literally like being the Marionette, the one moving the puppets.

I want to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder. This one's about a habit change and a mistake I see people making, And that's really that we don't think about these new habits that we want to add in the context of our entire life. Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life that we have. So when we just keep adding I should do this, I should do that, I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't I really thought about what we're not going to do in order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for you to think about where is this going to fit and what in my life might I need to remove. If you want to step by step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. All those things make a lot of sense, and I'm glad that you've got a way of talking about it. Here's the other challenge that I run into with this idea when I work with it inside myself is where I mean, not with what you've put into the world at all when I work with it inside myself. There's a concept in Buddhism of near and far enemies, and that means that like something like compassion has a far enemy, which is compassion kindness just being mean or callous or I'm caring. There's also something that's called a close enemy. And the close enemy might be something like what you're describing, or pity, but it looks enough like the thing that it's hard to distinguish. And I think for some people, I don't know about all people that would fall under this category. Some of our best traits are indeed, our kindness, our thoughtfulness, are caring for others, like those are genuine traits, They're genuine values.

I want to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder. This one's about a habit change and a mistake I see people making, And that's really that we don't think about these new habits that we want to add in the context of our entire life. Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life that we have. So when we just keep adding I should do this, I should do that, I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't I really thought about what we're not going to do in order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for you to think about where is this going to fit and what in my life might I need to remove. If you want to step by step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your good Wolf, go to Goodwolf dot me, slash change and join the free masterclass. All those things make a lot of sense, and I'm glad that you've got a way of talking about it. Here's the other challenge that I run into with this idea when I work with it inside myself is where I mean, not with what you've put into the world at all when I work with it inside myself. There's a concept in Buddhism of near and far enemies, and that means that like something like compassion has a far enemy, which is compassion kindness just being mean or callous or I'm caring. There's also something that's called a close enemy. And the close enemy might be something like what you're describing, or pity, but it looks enough like the thing that it's hard to distinguish. And I think for some people, I don't know about all people that would fall under this category. Some of our best traits are indeed, our kindness, our thoughtfulness, are caring for others, like those are genuine traits, They're genuine values.

Yep.

Yep.

Right, So all of a sudden, You've got this thing where for me, I'm trying to tweeze apart. What's driving this? Yes, And as you talk about in the book at one point that like a people pleaser abandons themselves so quickly they don't notice it happening. On top of this difficulty, because these two things look a lot like each other, trying to tweeze them apart, when you even start tweezing them apart, oftentimes you go, well, I didn't care. It wasn't a big deal to me. You genuinely don't know. Yep, So talk to me about sorting that piece. And I'm sure it's for most people because they're all like, well, I'm nice, I'm kind, that's good.

Right, So all of a sudden, You've got this thing where for me, I'm trying to tweeze apart. What's driving this? Yes, And as you talk about in the book at one point that like a people pleaser abandons themselves so quickly they don't notice it happening. On top of this difficulty, because these two things look a lot like each other, trying to tweeze them apart, when you even start tweezing them apart, oftentimes you go, well, I didn't care. It wasn't a big deal to me. You genuinely don't know. Yep, So talk to me about sorting that piece. And I'm sure it's for most people because they're all like, well, I'm nice, I'm kind, that's good.

Yeah, Okay, that's such a great question, Eric. So what you're really asking is is it codependent or is it caring? And I will add or is it controlling? Because that's what it is so much of the time, and so it doesn't mean your heart's not in the right place. So how can you tell what you're doing? Well, first, you do the resentment inventory, right, because if you're feeling resentful, you're probably giving from a disordered place. If we can't give and feel equanimity and love about what we're doing, we're giving for a different reason. And listen, we might give out of obligation. This is you know, we have packs, right, We have agreements in life, We have obligations, we have people we feel responsible for, and as long as our eyes are wide open we make those decisions. We will always at some point be doing some stuff we'd rather not be doing in life. But you just don't want to be doing it all the time. So how do we make the distinction? Well, are you trying to control? Are you centering as you had said before yourself as the solution to your friend's problem? Like, I've got the answer. I'm going to tell you how I came up with the concept basically, and you know, but I'll quickly just tell the audience because if you read the book, one of my sisters was in an abusive relationship, living in a shack in the woods, without running water and without heat and upstate New York. She was an active alcoholic. The guy she was with was abusive and doing crack. So that's like an hfc's nightmare because it's completely out of control. It's all the unknown, it's all the scary stuff, and all we want to do is not deal with that. My life was very busy at that time, but I was obsessed with like saving my sister in my mind right, And I remember going to my therapist. I was blowing my eyes out and crying and being like, what am I going to do? I've done everything, you know, Bev, what am I going to do? And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know? What your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it in this lifetime. And I was like, well, I think we can agree she doesn't need to do it with this piece of shit in the woods who's abusive and whatever, you know, And she said, I would love to, but actually I can't agree with that because I don't know and I'm not God, and neither were you. But do you know what's happening for you? When I was like, obviously not, so clue me in, please, and she said, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life, right. I was just madly in love with my husband. I was becoming a bonus mom to three teenage kids. It was like I had just become a therapist for being a talent agent. Like my life was exploding with changes. And she said, and your sisters, dumpster fire is really messing with your piece, and you would really like to fix it up nice and neat in a bow so that you could go back to feeling harmonious in your life. And I was like, you are definitely not lying, Like that's true, Like that is correct. This has taking tons of my bandwidth, my energy, my time, my emotions. And I said, well, what are my options because I didn't think I had any. I thought, obviously, you just keep trying to get the person out till they leave, right, that was what I thought you did as a sister. And she said, Terry, you need boundaries. I was in my twenties, like I was, like, boundaries, What the hell is that? And from that point forward, so anyway, together we came up with what the plan was going to be. I told my sister, Hayles and I can't really talk to you about this guy, but when and if you ever want to get out of there? And I was already in recovery myself. I said, when and if you ever want to get out of there, I'm your person. And so within nine months she called me and said, are you still my person? I was like, yes, I am. I'm getting in my car right now. She came out, she got into recovery, she went back to school. She has never that was decades ago. She's never been in another abusive relationship. But the difference is that in me not centering what she needed to do on me and what I thought she needed to do, I respected her sovereignty to do it for herself and instead of her baby's sister being the hero of her story. She is the hero of her own story, which is also the only way it sticks. Even if I had forced her out or like, it wouldn't have stuck, as you know, especially we know with addiction. And so that was the beginning of understanding that I didn't know anything about what was my responsibility and what was someone else's responsibility, and that I was very en messed in my relationships, and that I was very codependent in my life with billions of people. Would not even just close people, I could become codependent with anybody. And I'm not kidding. I mean my hairdresser, my friggin mail carrier in New York City, like I would feel responsible. I opened the book with a story of being on a train platform late eighties, heading to New York City from Long Island and there's a kid standing there and it's like a desolate train station. Don't even ask me what the hell I was doing there at ten thirty at night, but anyway, and I'm thinking to myself, where's this kid going? He is probably nineteen, I was probably twenty two, and I'm worried about this kid who I don't even know. So we get on the train. I start talking to him and I was like, where are you going? He was like, I was going to be moving a car from here to Indiana and he had a little blanket in his hand. Keep in mind, and he said, and then they canceled the gig. I go, so where are you going? He's like, oh, I'm going to sleep in Penstation. I was like, no, you're not. Have you've been to Penn Station, dude, you will get mumed. You cannot sleep there. He's like, well, I don't know anyone in New York. And I'm like, yeah, you do. You know me? And that's how I came to take a perfect stranger home to my studio apartment with my female roommate, who I didn't even call. Keep in mind, it was like there was no cell phones back in the day, as you know. But I mean, what is that this sense of responsibility. I could have been like, here's ten bucks, even if he didn't or whatever, maybe go to a hostel. But instead it's like I took it on like it had to be me, which is very much an hfc's mantra, like it has to be me. We don't trust that other people are going to do the right things anyway, long way around the barn ta get back to this over responsibility.

Yeah, Okay, that's such a great question, Eric. So what you're really asking is is it codependent or is it caring? And I will add or is it controlling? Because that's what it is so much of the time, and so it doesn't mean your heart's not in the right place. So how can you tell what you're doing? Well, first, you do the resentment inventory, right, because if you're feeling resentful, you're probably giving from a disordered place. If we can't give and feel equanimity and love about what we're doing, we're giving for a different reason. And listen, we might give out of obligation. This is you know, we have packs, right, We have agreements in life, We have obligations, we have people we feel responsible for, and as long as our eyes are wide open we make those decisions. We will always at some point be doing some stuff we'd rather not be doing in life. But you just don't want to be doing it all the time. So how do we make the distinction? Well, are you trying to control? Are you centering as you had said before yourself as the solution to your friend's problem? Like, I've got the answer. I'm going to tell you how I came up with the concept basically, and you know, but I'll quickly just tell the audience because if you read the book, one of my sisters was in an abusive relationship, living in a shack in the woods, without running water and without heat and upstate New York. She was an active alcoholic. The guy she was with was abusive and doing crack. So that's like an hfc's nightmare because it's completely out of control. It's all the unknown, it's all the scary stuff, and all we want to do is not deal with that. My life was very busy at that time, but I was obsessed with like saving my sister in my mind right, And I remember going to my therapist. I was blowing my eyes out and crying and being like, what am I going to do? I've done everything, you know, Bev, what am I going to do? And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know? What your sister needs to learn and how she needs to learn it in this lifetime. And I was like, well, I think we can agree she doesn't need to do it with this piece of shit in the woods who's abusive and whatever, you know, And she said, I would love to, but actually I can't agree with that because I don't know and I'm not God, and neither were you. But do you know what's happening for you? When I was like, obviously not, so clue me in, please, and she said, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life, right. I was just madly in love with my husband. I was becoming a bonus mom to three teenage kids. It was like I had just become a therapist for being a talent agent. Like my life was exploding with changes. And she said, and your sisters, dumpster fire is really messing with your piece, and you would really like to fix it up nice and neat in a bow so that you could go back to feeling harmonious in your life. And I was like, you are definitely not lying, Like that's true, Like that is correct. This has taking tons of my bandwidth, my energy, my time, my emotions. And I said, well, what are my options because I didn't think I had any. I thought, obviously, you just keep trying to get the person out till they leave, right, that was what I thought you did as a sister. And she said, Terry, you need boundaries. I was in my twenties, like I was, like, boundaries, What the hell is that? And from that point forward, so anyway, together we came up with what the plan was going to be. I told my sister, Hayles and I can't really talk to you about this guy, but when and if you ever want to get out of there? And I was already in recovery myself. I said, when and if you ever want to get out of there, I'm your person. And so within nine months she called me and said, are you still my person? I was like, yes, I am. I'm getting in my car right now. She came out, she got into recovery, she went back to school. She has never that was decades ago. She's never been in another abusive relationship. But the difference is that in me not centering what she needed to do on me and what I thought she needed to do, I respected her sovereignty to do it for herself and instead of her baby's sister being the hero of her story. She is the hero of her own story, which is also the only way it sticks. Even if I had forced her out or like, it wouldn't have stuck, as you know, especially we know with addiction. And so that was the beginning of understanding that I didn't know anything about what was my responsibility and what was someone else's responsibility, and that I was very en messed in my relationships, and that I was very codependent in my life with billions of people. Would not even just close people, I could become codependent with anybody. And I'm not kidding. I mean my hairdresser, my friggin mail carrier in New York City, like I would feel responsible. I opened the book with a story of being on a train platform late eighties, heading to New York City from Long Island and there's a kid standing there and it's like a desolate train station. Don't even ask me what the hell I was doing there at ten thirty at night, but anyway, and I'm thinking to myself, where's this kid going? He is probably nineteen, I was probably twenty two, and I'm worried about this kid who I don't even know. So we get on the train. I start talking to him and I was like, where are you going? He was like, I was going to be moving a car from here to Indiana and he had a little blanket in his hand. Keep in mind, and he said, and then they canceled the gig. I go, so where are you going? He's like, oh, I'm going to sleep in Penstation. I was like, no, you're not. Have you've been to Penn Station, dude, you will get mumed. You cannot sleep there. He's like, well, I don't know anyone in New York. And I'm like, yeah, you do. You know me? And that's how I came to take a perfect stranger home to my studio apartment with my female roommate, who I didn't even call. Keep in mind, it was like there was no cell phones back in the day, as you know. But I mean, what is that this sense of responsibility. I could have been like, here's ten bucks, even if he didn't or whatever, maybe go to a hostel. But instead it's like I took it on like it had to be me, which is very much an hfc's mantra, like it has to be me. We don't trust that other people are going to do the right things anyway, long way around the barn ta get back to this over responsibility.

Yeah, I think what's interesting about that story is certain people would look at that story as a beautiful thing of generosity and you know, welcoming the stranger and all those sort of things that come out of our religious traditions. What I think is at the heart, and you do too, because you sort of name it in the book, is the fact that it wasn't a considered choice.

Yeah, I think what's interesting about that story is certain people would look at that story as a beautiful thing of generosity and you know, welcoming the stranger and all those sort of things that come out of our religious traditions. What I think is at the heart, and you do too, because you sort of name it in the book, is the fact that it wasn't a considered choice.

Correct.

Correct.

It happened reactively out of old patterns and old conditioning. The question of whether you should ask that guy back to your apartment to sday is probably not a good idea in many ways, right, of course, I think we can all agree yes, there's a lot of reasons that could be problematic, But someone else might consider it and make a different choice, Yes, to ask that person back. But it's the considering. It's you know, choosing to see am I acting out of a value of mine? Or am I somehow reacting to a fear of mine?

It happened reactively out of old patterns and old conditioning. The question of whether you should ask that guy back to your apartment to sday is probably not a good idea in many ways, right, of course, I think we can all agree yes, there's a lot of reasons that could be problematic, But someone else might consider it and make a different choice, Yes, to ask that person back. But it's the considering. It's you know, choosing to see am I acting out of a value of mine? Or am I somehow reacting to a fear of mine?

Yes, you bring up a great point because what you said before is that what happens when people say I'm just being nice, I do get pushed back. Like online where people like maybe I'm just good person, Terry everythink of that and I go listen. If you can't not do it, it is not you being nice. That is a compulsion, like any other compulsion, that is a reactive response, just as you described. So whatever people choose to do mindfully, I say right now, maybe someone would choose to do that. But you are correct in pointing out that for me, I never even hesitated. It was all reaction. All I must fix from being the hero child in my family system. Like we get set up to do this. Not to mention, we're indoctrinated, most of us, especially women, and especially if you were raised in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, where it's like where's my happy girl? Turn that fround around. If you don't have anything nice to say, I don't say anything at all. So there's an expectation that we will be helpful, that we will add value. Now add if you have a religious household or a very authoritarian household, I mean we are raised and praised to become a self abandon incodependence fact.

Yes, you bring up a great point because what you said before is that what happens when people say I'm just being nice, I do get pushed back. Like online where people like maybe I'm just good person, Terry everythink of that and I go listen. If you can't not do it, it is not you being nice. That is a compulsion, like any other compulsion, that is a reactive response, just as you described. So whatever people choose to do mindfully, I say right now, maybe someone would choose to do that. But you are correct in pointing out that for me, I never even hesitated. It was all reaction. All I must fix from being the hero child in my family system. Like we get set up to do this. Not to mention, we're indoctrinated, most of us, especially women, and especially if you were raised in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, where it's like where's my happy girl? Turn that fround around. If you don't have anything nice to say, I don't say anything at all. So there's an expectation that we will be helpful, that we will add value. Now add if you have a religious household or a very authoritarian household, I mean we are raised and praised to become a self abandon incodependence fact.

Yeah yeah, I love what you said there. If you can't not do it, you know, that's something to look at I think that with a lot of these things we have to do a deep dive till we actually kind of know ourselves. And even then the water I think is very muddy on some of these things. Let's explore this a little bit more. You say the solution is simple. It's not easy, but it's simple, and you've already said it out loud. But let's go back to it by learning to distinguish what's your responsibility and what's not. And you use a phrase that I'm guessing you first got from recovery, which is, you know, what's on my side of the street, what's on your side of the street. Are there questions we can ask ourselves to see is this on my side of the street or the other side of the street. Am I being overly responsible? Or am I being responsible in a good way? What are some ways of figuring that out?

Yeah yeah, I love what you said there. If you can't not do it, you know, that's something to look at I think that with a lot of these things we have to do a deep dive till we actually kind of know ourselves. And even then the water I think is very muddy on some of these things. Let's explore this a little bit more. You say the solution is simple. It's not easy, but it's simple, and you've already said it out loud. But let's go back to it by learning to distinguish what's your responsibility and what's not. And you use a phrase that I'm guessing you first got from recovery, which is, you know, what's on my side of the street, what's on your side of the street. Are there questions we can ask ourselves to see is this on my side of the street or the other side of the street. Am I being overly responsible? Or am I being responsible in a good way? What are some ways of figuring that out?

Well, part of it is really looking at whose responsibility is. Like whatever the thing is. If you have an adult child who can't make their rent and you are without even talking to them, or even talking to them, like transferring money into their account because you don't want them to be in arrears or whatever it is, that's not your responsibility, and so you may choose to do it once if someone's struggling or someone's getting back on their feet, but really think about it. And I would have parents say, but how can I let him become homeless? I'm like, well, if you get abducted by aliens tomorrow, would he really become homeless or would he find a way? Right, there's an infantilization a lot of times. Yes, that's happening where we can't stand the thought of that person's suffering, and so we will do anything to make sure they don't.

Well, part of it is really looking at whose responsibility is. Like whatever the thing is. If you have an adult child who can't make their rent and you are without even talking to them, or even talking to them, like transferring money into their account because you don't want them to be in arrears or whatever it is, that's not your responsibility, and so you may choose to do it once if someone's struggling or someone's getting back on their feet, but really think about it. And I would have parents say, but how can I let him become homeless? I'm like, well, if you get abducted by aliens tomorrow, would he really become homeless or would he find a way? Right, there's an infantilization a lot of times. Yes, that's happening where we can't stand the thought of that person's suffering, and so we will do anything to make sure they don't.

And I will add to that that there are people in our lives that will try and make it our responsibility. So we'll say, like I've gone through this with a family member, Okay, I'm not responsible for that happiness. Can't do it, So I'm just going to let it go and let it sit over there. And then I get this constant sort of feeling like reaching across into my side of the street around how I'm responsible for making that person happy? And it's sort of with boundaries, right, you were saying, like, learning, what do I do when someone else keeps coming over my boundary? It's a similar thing. But I think that makes it harder because in some cases you let somebody be responsible for themselves and they take responsibility and things go well. But there are some people that just don't.

And I will add to that that there are people in our lives that will try and make it our responsibility. So we'll say, like I've gone through this with a family member, Okay, I'm not responsible for that happiness. Can't do it, So I'm just going to let it go and let it sit over there. And then I get this constant sort of feeling like reaching across into my side of the street around how I'm responsible for making that person happy? And it's sort of with boundaries, right, you were saying, like, learning, what do I do when someone else keeps coming over my boundary? It's a similar thing. But I think that makes it harder because in some cases you let somebody be responsible for themselves and they take responsibility and things go well. But there are some people that just don't.

But the bottom line is that we have to, as hfc's in recovery, learn to let the chips fall where they may when they're not our chips, and you're right, some people won't. My sister had made a terrible choice. Was it a choice? I have no idea. She was addicted at the time, Like you know, shit happens. So was it my job to get her out of there? And could I even have done it? And really the thing that let me not do it was my therapist saying, Terry, I'm not saying that you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying you cannot. It is an impossibility. And then you go, oh, it's not my side of the street, and it's an impossibility. Obviously, I said, if you're ever ready to get out, I'll help. Like, there are still appropriate and loving ways that we can help people if they want help, but so much of the time we're doing it for ourselves, you know. Gabormante talks about like if someone is having upsetting feelings and we're like, oh, look on the bright side, and here's the silver lining, and let me be a silver lining detective and hyper positive or whatever. What we're really saying is that your distress is so distressing to me that I can't even tolerate it. So I need to make it better. I need to. And these are like the friends and you know I talk about this in the book, who are like, so loving your new job? Right, they're providing the answer that they want in the question that they're asking you because they don't want to hear it if you're not loving your new job, and so, what do we do instead? Right? You can look at instead of auto advice giving, instead of telling everyone what we think about everything or anything, learn to ask expansive questions right, Ask someone, babe, how can I best support you? Right now? Right? What do you think you should do? Really? Eric, This is with kids, This is with teenagers, This is with grown people, This is with friends. If I had a seven year old come to me and being like I had a fight in school today, as a parent, some parents will be like, we don't fight in this family. Where I could immediately start like lecturing or go tell me what happened? They tell you what happened. The next thing is tell me what you think you should do.