Nick Wignoll, Welcome to the podcast.

Nick Wignoll, Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me on.

Thanks for having me on.

You are the first.

You are the first.

Individual from Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's so New Mexico south southwest.

Individual from Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's so New Mexico south southwest.

We're kind of sandwiched in between Texas and Arizona.

We're kind of sandwiched in between Texas and Arizona.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been around that area.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been around that area.

G thirty years ago, I was traveling and working in the States and we had an RV and.

G thirty years ago, I was traveling and working in the States and we had an RV and.

Went all the way round that.

Went all the way round that.

Man, just this scenery is unbelievable, isn't it wild?

Man, just this scenery is unbelievable, isn't it wild?

Yeah, And it can be so diverse, it can change so quickly. You know, you're you think you're in the desert, and all of a sudden you're up in the mountains and there's aspen trees.

Yeah, And it can be so diverse, it can change so quickly. You know, you're you think you're in the desert, and all of a sudden you're up in the mountains and there's aspen trees.

Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic stuff.

Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic stuff.

So, mate, you are a clinical psychologist by back, I'm true, but also the founder of loom, where you do high performance stuff for businesses, for leadership teams and that sort of thing. But today we are we're going to poke the burr a little bit, right because I've had quite a few clinical psychologists on all talking about the positive stuff. And you've got a really cool newsletter and you take a different slant on things and So first of all, let's talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is everywhere, right, and people talking about how we need to increase our EQ and all of that, and there's businesses that do EQ training, and now you have a bit of an approach that it's a bit overrated, so they can tell us what you mean by that.

So, mate, you are a clinical psychologist by back, I'm true, but also the founder of loom, where you do high performance stuff for businesses, for leadership teams and that sort of thing. But today we are we're going to poke the burr a little bit, right because I've had quite a few clinical psychologists on all talking about the positive stuff. And you've got a really cool newsletter and you take a different slant on things and So first of all, let's talk about emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is everywhere, right, and people talking about how we need to increase our EQ and all of that, and there's businesses that do EQ training, and now you have a bit of an approach that it's a bit overrated, so they can tell us what you mean by that.

Let's dive into that.

Let's dive into that.

Yeah, part of it is maybe I'm just sick of seeing it everywhere and hearing everyone talk about it and kind of what I would consider slightly sloppy terms, like it's kind of vague in general what people meeting by EQ or by emotional intelligence. So I think what And the first thing I'll say is like, overrated doesn't mean important, right, And that's really is. It is important, But I think the question is important relative to what else because we all have limited time and energy to put into things and to focus on things, especially to try and work on ourselves and improve ourselves and our teams. Right, we have limited amounts of energy and time and resources, so that this really matters. And the place I like to start is very few people outside of academics actually care about emotional intelligence itself as an outcome. They want the things that come from emotional intelligence. Ostensibly, they want better relationships. They want more intimacy or trust in their relationships at home or at work. Right, they want to they want to be more resilient in the face of big, difficult emotions they get super angry, they don't want to lose it and get really defensive in a conversation, or they don't want to get lost in spirals of worry and anxiety. So I think this is where I usually start with emotional intelligence, is most people what they want is emotional resilience. We want to be able to experience big emotions because that's inevitable. Like we're especially if we're doing ambitious, difficult things, We're going to have difficult emotions like fear and anxiety or anger or regret, all that kind of stuff. But we don't want to get knocked over by it, right, So I think, yeah, emotional resilience is kind of the big overarching category. Emotional intelligence is an important component in that, but it's not the only component. The other, really biggest component is what I call emotional fitness, and those two things together like that I think lead us to be resilience. So emotional intelligence in my opinion. It's what you know intellectually about your emotions and how to work with them and work them well. So an example I always like to give is like, worry is different than anxiety. A worry is a type of thinking and it's something you largely have control over. Anxiety is an emotion you can't. There's no switch for like turning down anxiety. So if you struggle with anxiety, the trick is actually to focus on the habit that's perpetuating it, which is worry. But a lot of people have never even heard of that distinction. So that's an instance of understanding something about how our emotions work. But if you think about it, in any skill in life, whether it's you know, learning to play the piano or running marathons or negotiating or whatever, any kind of skill, insight or learning book learning is important, but it's far far from sufficient. So if you wanted to play the guitar, and you said, great, I read this great book on guitar, but like, how come I can't play the guitar anymore? Well, if you expect that reading a book on guitar is going to make you a good guitar player, like you're out to lunch. But weirdly, when it comes to emotional health and resilience, we think, oh, if I just heard this great idea, I was listening to this podcast, or I read this great self help book, that should be enough, Right, Not at all. That's the very first step, most of the effect. If you really want to be have kind of emotional strength and be resilient in difficult situations, that's a muscle, right, and you've got to exercise that muscle. You got to develop it, you got to practice. That's the emotional fitness part. So the reason I say emotional intelligence is overrated is to kind of, you know, provoke people a little bit into realizing you're putting all your time into trying to understand stuff intellectually at the expense of actually practicing, putting in the reps to do the work that's going to actually lead to that resilience in the long.

Yeah, part of it is maybe I'm just sick of seeing it everywhere and hearing everyone talk about it and kind of what I would consider slightly sloppy terms, like it's kind of vague in general what people meeting by EQ or by emotional intelligence. So I think what And the first thing I'll say is like, overrated doesn't mean important, right, And that's really is. It is important, But I think the question is important relative to what else because we all have limited time and energy to put into things and to focus on things, especially to try and work on ourselves and improve ourselves and our teams. Right, we have limited amounts of energy and time and resources, so that this really matters. And the place I like to start is very few people outside of academics actually care about emotional intelligence itself as an outcome. They want the things that come from emotional intelligence. Ostensibly, they want better relationships. They want more intimacy or trust in their relationships at home or at work. Right, they want to they want to be more resilient in the face of big, difficult emotions they get super angry, they don't want to lose it and get really defensive in a conversation, or they don't want to get lost in spirals of worry and anxiety. So I think this is where I usually start with emotional intelligence, is most people what they want is emotional resilience. We want to be able to experience big emotions because that's inevitable. Like we're especially if we're doing ambitious, difficult things, We're going to have difficult emotions like fear and anxiety or anger or regret, all that kind of stuff. But we don't want to get knocked over by it, right, So I think, yeah, emotional resilience is kind of the big overarching category. Emotional intelligence is an important component in that, but it's not the only component. The other, really biggest component is what I call emotional fitness, and those two things together like that I think lead us to be resilience. So emotional intelligence in my opinion. It's what you know intellectually about your emotions and how to work with them and work them well. So an example I always like to give is like, worry is different than anxiety. A worry is a type of thinking and it's something you largely have control over. Anxiety is an emotion you can't. There's no switch for like turning down anxiety. So if you struggle with anxiety, the trick is actually to focus on the habit that's perpetuating it, which is worry. But a lot of people have never even heard of that distinction. So that's an instance of understanding something about how our emotions work. But if you think about it, in any skill in life, whether it's you know, learning to play the piano or running marathons or negotiating or whatever, any kind of skill, insight or learning book learning is important, but it's far far from sufficient. So if you wanted to play the guitar, and you said, great, I read this great book on guitar, but like, how come I can't play the guitar anymore? Well, if you expect that reading a book on guitar is going to make you a good guitar player, like you're out to lunch. But weirdly, when it comes to emotional health and resilience, we think, oh, if I just heard this great idea, I was listening to this podcast, or I read this great self help book, that should be enough, Right, Not at all. That's the very first step, most of the effect. If you really want to be have kind of emotional strength and be resilient in difficult situations, that's a muscle, right, and you've got to exercise that muscle. You got to develop it, you got to practice. That's the emotional fitness part. So the reason I say emotional intelligence is overrated is to kind of, you know, provoke people a little bit into realizing you're putting all your time into trying to understand stuff intellectually at the expense of actually practicing, putting in the reps to do the work that's going to actually lead to that resilience in the long.

I really like the term emotional fitness for a couple of reasons. I often talk about stress fitness and talk about the analogy with physical fitness, right, and I think we can do the same with emotional fitness. Is that there's a continuum, right, It's not just an on or an off it is a continuum. There are low fit people, there are medium fit people, and there are high fit people. And then you ask anybody a massive audience, what is the thing that distinguishes high fit physically fit people from low physically fit people, And they will all tell you it is that they do the work, and they do the work consistently, right, And I think it's the same with stress fitness. And what I'm hearing from you is it's the same with emotional fitness.

I really like the term emotional fitness for a couple of reasons. I often talk about stress fitness and talk about the analogy with physical fitness, right, and I think we can do the same with emotional fitness. Is that there's a continuum, right, It's not just an on or an off it is a continuum. There are low fit people, there are medium fit people, and there are high fit people. And then you ask anybody a massive audience, what is the thing that distinguishes high fit physically fit people from low physically fit people, And they will all tell you it is that they do the work, and they do the work consistently, right, And I think it's the same with stress fitness. And what I'm hearing from you is it's the same with emotional fitness.

Right.

Right.

It's not just something that's a gift. Yes, there's a little bit of genetics involved in all of this stuff, right, but a lot of it is about doing the work. And if you want to be high fit, you have to constantly do the work. And if you stop at any point doing the work, you're going to go down and continuum, whereas if you just sit there and do nothing, you're obviously going to be low fitness.

It's not just something that's a gift. Yes, there's a little bit of genetics involved in all of this stuff, right, but a lot of it is about doing the work. And if you want to be high fit, you have to constantly do the work. And if you stop at any point doing the work, you're going to go down and continuum, whereas if you just sit there and do nothing, you're obviously going to be low fitness.

Really yeah, and you know, I think that's exactly right. But I get a little frustrated with my own field of clinical psychology and counseling and therapy because I think we perpetuate this myth that like, well, you can just come in and like talk about your stuff or like read stuff and somehow proof magically that'll make everything better. There's nothing wrong with therapy. Like I was a therapist for a long time. I think I think it could be really powerful. But it's just it's just the first step, right, It's what are you doing in between your weekly sessions every single day to get better, to get more resilient at dealing with anxiety or you know, figuring out how to understand and work through your tendency toward depression or that's just that one hour in a day, one hour week when you're talking to me. That's great, but that's that's just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the effects is going to happen in between. It's all those practice sessions you are or aren't doing in the meantime.

Really yeah, and you know, I think that's exactly right. But I get a little frustrated with my own field of clinical psychology and counseling and therapy because I think we perpetuate this myth that like, well, you can just come in and like talk about your stuff or like read stuff and somehow proof magically that'll make everything better. There's nothing wrong with therapy. Like I was a therapist for a long time. I think I think it could be really powerful. But it's just it's just the first step, right, It's what are you doing in between your weekly sessions every single day to get better, to get more resilient at dealing with anxiety or you know, figuring out how to understand and work through your tendency toward depression or that's just that one hour in a day, one hour week when you're talking to me. That's great, but that's that's just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the effects is going to happen in between. It's all those practice sessions you are or aren't doing in the meantime.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, And and there are a lot of people, I think who go to talk therapies just so that they can unload and be heard, and then they walk out and they do nothing, and they expect a different outcome. I'm I'm not such a big fan of talk therapies that that don't have an action associated with.

Absolutely, And and there are a lot of people, I think who go to talk therapies just so that they can unload and be heard, and then they walk out and they do nothing, and they expect a different outcome. I'm I'm not such a big fan of talk therapies that that don't have an action associated with.

Them, you know.

Them, you know.

And I'm I'm poking the bar a little bit when it comes to psychology on.

And I'm I'm poking the bar a little bit when it comes to psychology on.

This, what what's your what is your view on that?

This, what what's your what is your view on that?

You know, people, I think that that there's a little bit of a risk that in Western psychology we have become too much about may may may may me and who's doing what to me?

You know, people, I think that that there's a little bit of a risk that in Western psychology we have become too much about may may may may me and who's doing what to me?

And woe is me?

And woe is me?

And that can be sometimes reinforced if there's no self reflection and action, particularly what's your thoughts around.

And that can be sometimes reinforced if there's no self reflection and action, particularly what's your thoughts around.

I think it's a huge risk that almost nobody talks about with psychotherapy or counseling, or coaching or or a lot of these self development programs, is they can unintentionally I don't think anyone is deliberately doing this, but they can unintentionally reinforce patterns of dependence and sort of low agency. So you go in in part because you know the we we approach something like therapy like we approach medicine, which is where right or wrong. I think there's a good indication, not a very helpful way anything about physical health either. But we think like something hurts, so I'm gonna go and im and talk to doctor. They're gonna figure out what's wrong. They're gonna be a bunch of tests. I don't know what's happening they're just gonna like test me. Then they're gonna give you, give me a pill, maybe maybe put me under and do some surgery, and then like poof, I'm gonna be better. And we expect that the same thing that that's how you know emotional health should work too. I'm depressed or I'm anxious, I'm gonna go in some super smart therapist is going to like analyze what's wrong, and then we're gonna talk about things dot dot dot and then somehow everything's gonna be better and it just does. And again, talking can be helpful, right, and there are a lot of very smart, insightful therapists. But if your model is that I'm just gonna go in, I'm going to kind of vent or talk about things and then I don't know, somehow like everything's gonna get better, Like it's just it does it. I've never seen it work that way. It always requires a substantial amount of work, like not maybe not literally sweating sometimes sweating, but like real work on the part of the person who wants to grow and improve and get better. And it's just we don't do people any favors reinforcing this model that you can just come in and like chat for sixty minutes every week and like then you'll get better.

I think it's a huge risk that almost nobody talks about with psychotherapy or counseling, or coaching or or a lot of these self development programs, is they can unintentionally I don't think anyone is deliberately doing this, but they can unintentionally reinforce patterns of dependence and sort of low agency. So you go in in part because you know the we we approach something like therapy like we approach medicine, which is where right or wrong. I think there's a good indication, not a very helpful way anything about physical health either. But we think like something hurts, so I'm gonna go and im and talk to doctor. They're gonna figure out what's wrong. They're gonna be a bunch of tests. I don't know what's happening they're just gonna like test me. Then they're gonna give you, give me a pill, maybe maybe put me under and do some surgery, and then like poof, I'm gonna be better. And we expect that the same thing that that's how you know emotional health should work too. I'm depressed or I'm anxious, I'm gonna go in some super smart therapist is going to like analyze what's wrong, and then we're gonna talk about things dot dot dot and then somehow everything's gonna be better and it just does. And again, talking can be helpful, right, and there are a lot of very smart, insightful therapists. But if your model is that I'm just gonna go in, I'm going to kind of vent or talk about things and then I don't know, somehow like everything's gonna get better, Like it's just it does it. I've never seen it work that way. It always requires a substantial amount of work, like not maybe not literally sweating sometimes sweating, but like real work on the part of the person who wants to grow and improve and get better. And it's just we don't do people any favors reinforcing this model that you can just come in and like chat for sixty minutes every week and like then you'll get better.

Absolutely, And I think that every not in every therapy session, but every school should be teaching kids life is hard.

Absolutely, And I think that every not in every therapy session, but every school should be teaching kids life is hard.

You know. Life is not easy.

You know. Life is not easy.

It was never supposed to be easy. And anybody who's told you that life is easy and you deserve to be happy has sorry, but they've lied to you. Life has always been hard and always will be hard, and in different ways. And it's like when we try to make life not hard, that's when I think we get in when we get into trouble, when we try to get rid of negative emotions and negative excs experiences and go, this is uncomfortable, so I just want to get rid of it. And I don't think that's the right answer.

It was never supposed to be easy. And anybody who's told you that life is easy and you deserve to be happy has sorry, but they've lied to you. Life has always been hard and always will be hard, and in different ways. And it's like when we try to make life not hard, that's when I think we get in when we get into trouble, when we try to get rid of negative emotions and negative excs experiences and go, this is uncomfortable, so I just want to get rid of it. And I don't think that's the right answer.

Yeah, you know, I used to see this and I still see it so often. This this counterintuitive problem where again I think it's because we have this medical model where when we're suffering emotionally, we equate pain or suffering with pathology, like that something's broken or wrong because I'm in pain.

Yeah, you know, I used to see this and I still see it so often. This this counterintuitive problem where again I think it's because we have this medical model where when we're suffering emotionally, we equate pain or suffering with pathology, like that something's broken or wrong because I'm in pain.

And we've been fed that though as well by largely by the pharmaceutical industry, that you know, this is something that can just be fixed.

And we've been fed that though as well by largely by the pharmaceutical industry, that you know, this is something that can just be fixed.

Yeah, I think there's all. I think there's a lot to it, and I think there's a spectrum of nefariousness here. I think a lot of medical providers and mental health providers are against super well intentioned and trying to do the right thing by their clients. But the idea, if you think, if you really stop and think about it, the idea that it that if I'm feeling anxious, there is something wrong with me, something broken inside of me that needs to be fixed. This is help you go into a lot of therapy or self help books or whatever it is. The problem is, even though it feels like that, we all know that while pain is sometimes an indicator of a problem something's wrong, it's very often not that at all. In many cases, pain is a sign of growth. When your muscle's hurt after a new workout, that's literally because your muscles are growing, right, So I think to assume that pain means something is literally broken or wrong is really it's tempting, but it's so detrimental because here's what happens. There's this process that's a little nerdy, but I'll explain it because I think I think it really matters. There's this process called emotional fear learning.

Yeah, I think there's all. I think there's a lot to it, and I think there's a spectrum of nefariousness here. I think a lot of medical providers and mental health providers are against super well intentioned and trying to do the right thing by their clients. But the idea, if you think, if you really stop and think about it, the idea that it that if I'm feeling anxious, there is something wrong with me, something broken inside of me that needs to be fixed. This is help you go into a lot of therapy or self help books or whatever it is. The problem is, even though it feels like that, we all know that while pain is sometimes an indicator of a problem something's wrong, it's very often not that at all. In many cases, pain is a sign of growth. When your muscle's hurt after a new workout, that's literally because your muscles are growing, right, So I think to assume that pain means something is literally broken or wrong is really it's tempting, but it's so detrimental because here's what happens. There's this process that's a little nerdy, but I'll explain it because I think I think it really matters. There's this process called emotional fear learning.

No.

No.

Emotional fear learning is when there's a part of your brain the amigdala, primarily which it's responsible for threats, for tracking and helping you deal with threats. So if you're walking around you see a bear jump out in front of you, it's the thing that's going to shoot you into fight or flight modes that you can run get out of there. It's really helpful if you're encountering a true threat to your something literally dangerous. But the wild thing about the amignal is, depending on your behavior, you can train it to believe that anything is dangerous. And here's this idea of emotional fear learning. If in response to a difficult emotion like anxiety or shame or sadness or or fear or anything like this, if you immediately either try to run away and avoid it or get rid of it, that's teaching your brain that this thing, your own emotions are dangerous, are threats, so that even if you feel a little bit better in the short term, you're gonna feel worse long term because the next time that emotion comes up, you're not just gonna be anxious, You're gonna be anxious about being anxious, and when your emotions come pound like this, they get way bigger and way harder to deal with. So so much well intentioned mental health advice I think is actually completely counterproductive. Like a great example of this is coping skills. You hear about this all the time, like, oh, you need more coping skills. You gotta like fill out your tool belt of coping skills so that when you get anxious, you just like whip out a little exercise and cope with your anxiety. No, this is a terrible, terrible idea, because even if you get a little bit of relief in the short term by coping with your anxiety, what your brain is learning is that anxiety is dangerous, it's bad. You're essentially trying to get rid of it. So again, you're going to be even more on the lookout. Your brain's going to be even more sensitive to anxiety, and you're going to feel anxious about being anxious increasingly. This is where people get into real problems with their emotional health. They get self critical about being sad. That's what leads to depression, right or can anyway. They get anxious about being anxious, that's what leads to panic attacks, but feeling sad, feeling anxious, feeling angry, feeling feeling guilty. These are all incredibly normal human experiences, which, however painful, aren't. They're natural, they're normal, They're not a sign that something is wrong.

Emotional fear learning is when there's a part of your brain the amigdala, primarily which it's responsible for threats, for tracking and helping you deal with threats. So if you're walking around you see a bear jump out in front of you, it's the thing that's going to shoot you into fight or flight modes that you can run get out of there. It's really helpful if you're encountering a true threat to your something literally dangerous. But the wild thing about the amignal is, depending on your behavior, you can train it to believe that anything is dangerous. And here's this idea of emotional fear learning. If in response to a difficult emotion like anxiety or shame or sadness or or fear or anything like this, if you immediately either try to run away and avoid it or get rid of it, that's teaching your brain that this thing, your own emotions are dangerous, are threats, so that even if you feel a little bit better in the short term, you're gonna feel worse long term because the next time that emotion comes up, you're not just gonna be anxious, You're gonna be anxious about being anxious, and when your emotions come pound like this, they get way bigger and way harder to deal with. So so much well intentioned mental health advice I think is actually completely counterproductive. Like a great example of this is coping skills. You hear about this all the time, like, oh, you need more coping skills. You gotta like fill out your tool belt of coping skills so that when you get anxious, you just like whip out a little exercise and cope with your anxiety. No, this is a terrible, terrible idea, because even if you get a little bit of relief in the short term by coping with your anxiety, what your brain is learning is that anxiety is dangerous, it's bad. You're essentially trying to get rid of it. So again, you're going to be even more on the lookout. Your brain's going to be even more sensitive to anxiety, and you're going to feel anxious about being anxious increasingly. This is where people get into real problems with their emotional health. They get self critical about being sad. That's what leads to depression, right or can anyway. They get anxious about being anxious, that's what leads to panic attacks, but feeling sad, feeling anxious, feeling angry, feeling feeling guilty. These are all incredibly normal human experiences, which, however painful, aren't. They're natural, they're normal, They're not a sign that something is wrong.

So sorry, it's no note. I love it and I'm completely aligned with and in a couple of comments just just on that. One is that we know that when people are just like you described, what they can actually do or what happens over time is there amigdala can actually enlarge and become more sensitive. And we see that with people who are either chronically stressed or or and stress could.

So sorry, it's no note. I love it and I'm completely aligned with and in a couple of comments just just on that. One is that we know that when people are just like you described, what they can actually do or what happens over time is there amigdala can actually enlarge and become more sensitive. And we see that with people who are either chronically stressed or or and stress could.

Be real or imaginary.

Be real or imaginary.

Right, And as you say, when you get worried about being worried the amygdala in functional MRI studies, when they follow people, the amygdala grows bigger. That means they become hyper vigilant, doesn't it.

Right, And as you say, when you get worried about being worried the amygdala in functional MRI studies, when they follow people, the amygdala grows bigger. That means they become hyper vigilant, doesn't it.

So the brilling is.

So the brilling is.

Then non consciously scanning the environment for bad shit. And you can find that these days you just need to turn on the bloody news and then you linger on that longer than other people, and then it compounds, which is when we think about it is in a dative response if you're a key of man being in a dangerous warst right, but now it's maladaptive.

Then non consciously scanning the environment for bad shit. And you can find that these days you just need to turn on the bloody news and then you linger on that longer than other people, and then it compounds, which is when we think about it is in a dative response if you're a key of man being in a dangerous warst right, but now it's maladaptive.

Right, yeah, it's it's But again, I think the key idea here is that even in that case where you have habitually trained your amigola to be hyper sensitive and hypervigilant to things, it's your brain is still trying to do the right thing. It's still trying to help you. Your brain is always trying to help you. Yeah, but if you treat it like an enemy, it's going to increasingly start to feel like an enemy. That's the problem.

Right, yeah, it's it's But again, I think the key idea here is that even in that case where you have habitually trained your amigola to be hyper sensitive and hypervigilant to things, it's your brain is still trying to do the right thing. It's still trying to help you. Your brain is always trying to help you. Yeah, but if you treat it like an enemy, it's going to increasingly start to feel like an enemy. That's the problem.

Like that.

Like that.

It's so I think so many of us, unintentionally and on the bad advice of supposed professionals, we get more and more stuck and overwhelmed by difficult emotions because we're constantly trying to either run away from them or get rid of them cope with them, right, which unintentionally just makes it harder and harder in the long run.

It's so I think so many of us, unintentionally and on the bad advice of supposed professionals, we get more and more stuck and overwhelmed by difficult emotions because we're constantly trying to either run away from them or get rid of them cope with them, right, which unintentionally just makes it harder and harder in the long run.

So, so, what is a more productive strategy then, for if somebody is listening to this and going, oh, this stage just nailed me either currently are are in the past, But what is a more productive adaptive strategy? I mean, we know with anxiety exposure therapy created exposure is one of the key things, and it's it's the same as the principle with exercise training. You know, you need to progressively overload the system in order to stimulate adaptation. So what would your advice be to someone who's kind of stuck in that loop of wanting to get away from their emotions or make them disappear or cope with them.

So, so, what is a more productive strategy then, for if somebody is listening to this and going, oh, this stage just nailed me either currently are are in the past, But what is a more productive adaptive strategy? I mean, we know with anxiety exposure therapy created exposure is one of the key things, and it's it's the same as the principle with exercise training. You know, you need to progressively overload the system in order to stimulate adaptation. So what would your advice be to someone who's kind of stuck in that loop of wanting to get away from their emotions or make them disappear or cope with them.

Yeah, you know, the first thing I would just say is like, as unproductive as that can end up being if you end up backing on it, as we've been talking about it, it's very natural, So like, give yourself. Don't immediately go to start criticizing yourself now because you're doing this, it's very instinctive to want to avoid pain, and just getting critical with yourself about that is not gonna help. That's just gonna make things worse. So be careful. That's the worst thing I'll say. Yeah, in gen I mean, emotional resilience is a huge kind of topic. There's a lot of ways we could go here. I'll share with you one small but really powerful technique that I teach people in my work, especially I I have a whole course on emotional resilience called mood mastery, and the kind of the cornerstone practice in that in that program is something I'll call the AVA method. AVA like a v A. It's a it's a memory device, but it stands for these like three little simple steps that you can apply in any emotionally difficult situation. These will be you can guarantee these will be teaching your brain the right thing, not the wrong thing. And so I'll walk you through really quick. AVA stands for a acknowledge, So just very briefly label how you're feeling. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling you know, mad. And the key here though, is don't intellectualize we adults. When was the last time you hear an adult say I'm sad? It sounds childish, right, It sounds like the kind of thing a six year old would say. But the reason we do that is it's a subtle avoidance strategy. Saying oh, I'm so overwhelmed doesn't feel quite as bad as saying I feel really sad right now, that's prickler. It's more emotionally evocative. So we get in the habit of using vague overly intellectual language to describe how we feel. Knock it off, Like, that's the first step. Use very simple words. I tell my students, say it like a six year old when you're struggling, right, how would a little kid described this feeling. So that's the first one. Just acknowledge your emotions. And this is really fast. This is like five seconds. I feel sad and a little bit frustrated right now.

Yeah, you know, the first thing I would just say is like, as unproductive as that can end up being if you end up backing on it, as we've been talking about it, it's very natural, So like, give yourself. Don't immediately go to start criticizing yourself now because you're doing this, it's very instinctive to want to avoid pain, and just getting critical with yourself about that is not gonna help. That's just gonna make things worse. So be careful. That's the worst thing I'll say. Yeah, in gen I mean, emotional resilience is a huge kind of topic. There's a lot of ways we could go here. I'll share with you one small but really powerful technique that I teach people in my work, especially I I have a whole course on emotional resilience called mood mastery, and the kind of the cornerstone practice in that in that program is something I'll call the AVA method. AVA like a v A. It's a it's a memory device, but it stands for these like three little simple steps that you can apply in any emotionally difficult situation. These will be you can guarantee these will be teaching your brain the right thing, not the wrong thing. And so I'll walk you through really quick. AVA stands for a acknowledge, So just very briefly label how you're feeling. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling you know, mad. And the key here though, is don't intellectualize we adults. When was the last time you hear an adult say I'm sad? It sounds childish, right, It sounds like the kind of thing a six year old would say. But the reason we do that is it's a subtle avoidance strategy. Saying oh, I'm so overwhelmed doesn't feel quite as bad as saying I feel really sad right now, that's prickler. It's more emotionally evocative. So we get in the habit of using vague overly intellectual language to describe how we feel. Knock it off, Like, that's the first step. Use very simple words. I tell my students, say it like a six year old when you're struggling, right, how would a little kid described this feeling. So that's the first one. Just acknowledge your emotions. And this is really fast. This is like five seconds. I feel sad and a little bit frustrated right now.

And it's been shown neck.

And it's been shown neck.

I think to reduce the emotional intensity whenever you name it right, name it to tamate. I've heard other people talk about it does.

I think to reduce the emotional intensity whenever you name it right, name it to tamate. I've heard other people talk about it does.

But this next step is like intensity reduction on steroids. It's this is the one that really will help you alleviate some of that intensity. The V stands for validate and validate means once you've acknowledged, okay, I'm feeling anxious, validate means it's valid It's okay to feel whatever I'm feeling. Just because it feels bad doesn't mean it is bad or that I'm bad for feeling. So I don't like feeling anxious right. In fact, it's a pain in the ass. I really wish I wasn't feeling anxious. But it's not surprising that I'm feeling anxious given what just happened to me, or it's not surprising that I'm angry given that what happened. A lot of people would be angry in this situation. It's valid, it's okay. It's what you would say if a good friend came to you and they were really sad. You'd say, I'm really sorry to hear that, like, you know, I've been there before, and it's really tough, like I understand, but it's okay, you know. So it's just being that same level of supportive with yourself instead of being critical with yourself. Oh I shouldn't feel this way, or what do I need to do to make myself not feel this way? No, you're going to validate it. It's valid. You might not like it, it might be painful as hell, right, but it's valid. It okay to feel that way. And again, this step, you're not having a therapy session with yourself. This is not sixty minutes or like journaling for half an hour. This is ten seconds. You're saying, Okay, I'm feeling really anxious right now. As much as I don't like feeling anxious, it's okay that I'm feeling this way. Okay, So that's that's step two, and then the third step, arguably the most important step is the second a, which is on your values. So many people, especially especially in like modern therapy culture, we are a little bit too obsessed with our emotions. Fifty years ago, we were probably too avoidant with our emotions. We just didn't even talk about emotions at all. Right, that's obviously not helpful. I would argue we've swung a little too far to the other extreme, where we've got kind of obsessive about our emotions. We get stuck in them. We think, we overanalyze them, we talk about them too much. I think a lot of it.

But this next step is like intensity reduction on steroids. It's this is the one that really will help you alleviate some of that intensity. The V stands for validate and validate means once you've acknowledged, okay, I'm feeling anxious, validate means it's valid It's okay to feel whatever I'm feeling. Just because it feels bad doesn't mean it is bad or that I'm bad for feeling. So I don't like feeling anxious right. In fact, it's a pain in the ass. I really wish I wasn't feeling anxious. But it's not surprising that I'm feeling anxious given what just happened to me, or it's not surprising that I'm angry given that what happened. A lot of people would be angry in this situation. It's valid, it's okay. It's what you would say if a good friend came to you and they were really sad. You'd say, I'm really sorry to hear that, like, you know, I've been there before, and it's really tough, like I understand, but it's okay, you know. So it's just being that same level of supportive with yourself instead of being critical with yourself. Oh I shouldn't feel this way, or what do I need to do to make myself not feel this way? No, you're going to validate it. It's valid. You might not like it, it might be painful as hell, right, but it's valid. It okay to feel that way. And again, this step, you're not having a therapy session with yourself. This is not sixty minutes or like journaling for half an hour. This is ten seconds. You're saying, Okay, I'm feeling really anxious right now. As much as I don't like feeling anxious, it's okay that I'm feeling this way. Okay, So that's that's step two, and then the third step, arguably the most important step is the second a, which is on your values. So many people, especially especially in like modern therapy culture, we are a little bit too obsessed with our emotions. Fifty years ago, we were probably too avoidant with our emotions. We just didn't even talk about emotions at all. Right, that's obviously not helpful. I would argue we've swung a little too far to the other extreme, where we've got kind of obsessive about our emotions. We get stuck in them. We think, we overanalyze them, we talk about them too much. I think a lot of it.

Yeah, a great because.

Yeah, a great because.

And what's key is the reason that's problematic is to your brain, it looks like like a fight response, like you're trying to get rid of this thing, this emotion, and that's just as unhelpful as the avoidant one. The healthy middle ground is to acknowledging it, accept it, and just let it be there. It's okay, I'm anxious. I don't have to do anything about being anxious. My brain is just trying to help me. Maybe it's a little bit confused. It thinks there's something dangerous, when really there is anything dangerous, but it's just trying to help me. And I'm not going to stay stuck in this emotion. I'm not going to keep ruminating about it or venting about it to other people. I'm going to get on with my life despite feeling this emotion. I'm going to act on my values. What's meaningful or important to me right now. I'm not going to act on the emotion. This is not coping skills. I'm going to act on my values. And when your brain sees that you are willing to get on with your life despite feeling anxious or sad or angry or whatever it is, it downregulates. It stops getting so emotionally worked up every time you feel an emotion, and your level of emotional equanimity will just be It'll be so profound once you start doing this regularly. So that's the third step. Acknowledge, validate, and then put on your values. Allow the emotion to be there, and get on with your life. Refocus on that the other person you're having a conversation with. Start writing that report you know you're nervous about writing. Go to the gym instead of overthinking about whether you should I shouldn't you know what to get on with things. So that's my I said, it's going to be brief as usual, like over talked a little bit on this, but eva aba acknowledge, validate, and then move on, act on your values. Let the emotion just be there. So that to answer you. That's a long winded way of answering your question all about.

And what's key is the reason that's problematic is to your brain, it looks like like a fight response, like you're trying to get rid of this thing, this emotion, and that's just as unhelpful as the avoidant one. The healthy middle ground is to acknowledging it, accept it, and just let it be there. It's okay, I'm anxious. I don't have to do anything about being anxious. My brain is just trying to help me. Maybe it's a little bit confused. It thinks there's something dangerous, when really there is anything dangerous, but it's just trying to help me. And I'm not going to stay stuck in this emotion. I'm not going to keep ruminating about it or venting about it to other people. I'm going to get on with my life despite feeling this emotion. I'm going to act on my values. What's meaningful or important to me right now. I'm not going to act on the emotion. This is not coping skills. I'm going to act on my values. And when your brain sees that you are willing to get on with your life despite feeling anxious or sad or angry or whatever it is, it downregulates. It stops getting so emotionally worked up every time you feel an emotion, and your level of emotional equanimity will just be It'll be so profound once you start doing this regularly. So that's the third step. Acknowledge, validate, and then put on your values. Allow the emotion to be there, and get on with your life. Refocus on that the other person you're having a conversation with. Start writing that report you know you're nervous about writing. Go to the gym instead of overthinking about whether you should I shouldn't you know what to get on with things. So that's my I said, it's going to be brief as usual, like over talked a little bit on this, but eva aba acknowledge, validate, and then move on, act on your values. Let the emotion just be there. So that to answer you. That's a long winded way of answering your question all about.

Like, but it's a great it's a great answer, and I particularly like I like all components of it, but that it is directed towards acting and linking it to values right, which is straight out of acceptance commitments that are taking.

Like, but it's a great it's a great answer, and I particularly like I like all components of it, but that it is directed towards acting and linking it to values right, which is straight out of acceptance commitments that are taking.

It towards move rather than away, which is hugely important. So you know, let's make it real.

It towards move rather than away, which is hugely important. So you know, let's make it real.

Let's just say I have anxiety and and you have a birthday party coming up. But you know fortis birthday, whatever it may be, is a big birthday. You invite me to the party. My brain all of a sudden is going no frequent way, no way can I go to this party. You know, everybody's going to be looking at me. What am I going to do with my hands? People are going to be talking about me, what am I going to work? All this shit goes on, and then often people do avoidance behaviors, right, they don't go to the party. They make up some bullshit excuse, Whereas what you're talking about is you acknowledge it, you validate it. It's okay to freelanxis, and particularly because I've got a bit of social anxiety. But actually a value of mine is friendship, and Nick is a very good friend of mine. So I'm going to take my anxiety with me to the party in the service of something bigger. It's not that you're getting rid of the anxiety, you take it with you, right bing.

Let's just say I have anxiety and and you have a birthday party coming up. But you know fortis birthday, whatever it may be, is a big birthday. You invite me to the party. My brain all of a sudden is going no frequent way, no way can I go to this party. You know, everybody's going to be looking at me. What am I going to do with my hands? People are going to be talking about me, what am I going to work? All this shit goes on, and then often people do avoidance behaviors, right, they don't go to the party. They make up some bullshit excuse, Whereas what you're talking about is you acknowledge it, you validate it. It's okay to freelanxis, and particularly because I've got a bit of social anxiety. But actually a value of mine is friendship, and Nick is a very good friend of mine. So I'm going to take my anxiety with me to the party in the service of something bigger. It's not that you're getting rid of the anxiety, you take it with you, right bing.

Oh, that's so right on, And I love that, like bringing friendship in. You know, psychologically, why this isn't. One of the reasons this is so important is that our values are a huge, largely untapped source of motivation that we almost never think about. We all have values. There's a reason you initially wanted to come to my birthday party, Paul, or whatever the whatever this year. You wanted to go to the gym, you wanted to do that podcast, you wanted to write that book, you want to do whatever it is. Tap into that value when you remind yourself of that value and make it clear and kind of just spend a little time thinking about it. There's so much motivation there to help you overcome that whatever difficult emotion is getting in your way. Not that the emotion's bad, it's just your brain giving you some advice and maybe it's not especially helpful advice, so you're not obligated to listen if you decide, you know what, Thanks brain, I appreciate your input, but I've really decided it's important for me to go to this, to go to this birthday party, and so I'm going to do it anyway, right, So I love your example there.

Oh, that's so right on, And I love that, like bringing friendship in. You know, psychologically, why this isn't. One of the reasons this is so important is that our values are a huge, largely untapped source of motivation that we almost never think about. We all have values. There's a reason you initially wanted to come to my birthday party, Paul, or whatever the whatever this year. You wanted to go to the gym, you wanted to do that podcast, you wanted to write that book, you want to do whatever it is. Tap into that value when you remind yourself of that value and make it clear and kind of just spend a little time thinking about it. There's so much motivation there to help you overcome that whatever difficult emotion is getting in your way. Not that the emotion's bad, it's just your brain giving you some advice and maybe it's not especially helpful advice, so you're not obligated to listen if you decide, you know what, Thanks brain, I appreciate your input, but I've really decided it's important for me to go to this, to go to this birthday party, and so I'm going to do it anyway, right, So I love your example there.

And this value I actually want to really dive into the value stylence. And you know, because I think and I've been thinking about this a lot, and the kind of loss of religion in the West. Now I'm not religious at all. I'm a recovering Catholic from Northern Ireland. I've been in recovery for thirty years.

And this value I actually want to really dive into the value stylence. And you know, because I think and I've been thinking about this a lot, and the kind of loss of religion in the West. Now I'm not religious at all. I'm a recovering Catholic from Northern Ireland. I've been in recovery for thirty years.

But I a lot.

But I a lot.

This is not my original thinking. Lots of other people will say this, that the breakdown of religion has has had an issue, not because of the lack of religiosity or whatever, but because.

This is not my original thinking. Lots of other people will say this, that the breakdown of religion has has had an issue, not because of the lack of religiosity or whatever, but because.

You look at all religions is they give people values to live by, and people.

You look at all religions is they give people values to live by, and people.

Will then live by those shared values and they don't have to think about it too much, whereas not when there's a lot less religion, people then have to think about.

Will then live by those shared values and they don't have to think about it too much, whereas not when there's a lot less religion, people then have to think about.

Their own values and what they actually are.

Their own values and what they actually are.

And when I run workshops, and I would imagine that values come into your workshops when you're when you're doing stuff in corporates. When I'm talking about it, lots of people are.

And when I run workshops, and I would imagine that values come into your workshops when you're when you're doing stuff in corporates. When I'm talking about it, lots of people are.

Like, oh, even about what my values are?

Like, oh, even about what my values are?

Right, But they are.

Right, But they are.

A compassed by which you should be living your life.

A compassed by which you should be living your life.

Right, It's hugely important. And and just one other comment of me before I throw back to you, and you know, talking about values and habits and behaviors, and so for me, I'm I'm arismx military. I've had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol for for for.

Right, It's hugely important. And and just one other comment of me before I throw back to you, and you know, talking about values and habits and behaviors, and so for me, I'm I'm arismx military. I've had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol for for for.

Many years, not not not not.

Many years, not not not not.

A ridiculous piss hit or an alcoholic, but just probably drunk too much. And you know that whole culture of binge drinking. The one thing, and it was probably a couple of years ago that I significantly reduced my alcohol consumption and now I only drink once.

A ridiculous piss hit or an alcoholic, but just probably drunk too much. And you know that whole culture of binge drinking. The one thing, and it was probably a couple of years ago that I significantly reduced my alcohol consumption and now I only drink once.

Or twice a week.

Or twice a week.

I'll still give it a nudge if I'm out with friends and I'm no ee injel. But the one thing for me was authenticity, which is a deeply held value of mine. And as somebody who's a corporate speaker and talks about high performance, I'm not being authentic if I'm coming home on a Tuesday night and drinking half a bottler or bottle of wine, right, And so for me, it was tapping into that authenticity.

I'll still give it a nudge if I'm out with friends and I'm no ee injel. But the one thing for me was authenticity, which is a deeply held value of mine. And as somebody who's a corporate speaker and talks about high performance, I'm not being authentic if I'm coming home on a Tuesday night and drinking half a bottler or bottle of wine, right, And so for me, it was tapping into that authenticity.

And particularly when you're walking.

And particularly when you're walking.

Past the bottle shop or I don't know what you guys call them in the States, but you're walking past it and your brain is getting seduced into it, right, that's when values become really important and going yeah, wow, I'd love to do that, but I wouldn't be being authentic.

Past the bottle shop or I don't know what you guys call them in the States, but you're walking past it and your brain is getting seduced into it, right, that's when values become really important and going yeah, wow, I'd love to do that, but I wouldn't be being authentic.

So I just want to throw that back to you. That's discussion.

So I just want to throw that back to you. That's discussion.

What I like, too, is like, especially when at the end that idea of I think people miss this they think about values, is these things inside of you that you I don't know. You take a test or you listen to someone talk to you, and you kind of like uncover your values and it's like, ooh, interesting, there are values and that's great. If you haven't done that, like that's good. Work to do is to start to understand what your values are. But I think what where they get really powerful is when you start deliberately using.

What I like, too, is like, especially when at the end that idea of I think people miss this they think about values, is these things inside of you that you I don't know. You take a test or you listen to someone talk to you, and you kind of like uncover your values and it's like, ooh, interesting, there are values and that's great. If you haven't done that, like that's good. Work to do is to start to understand what your values are. But I think what where they get really powerful is when you start deliberately using.

Right.

Right.

They're not just these abstract things. You should be using them on a regular bringing them into your life in difficult decisions, when you're trying to follow through on a particular commitment, when you're in a difficult conversation with your spouse or a person at work or whatever. It is like what you Know? Simon Sinek wrote that great book like What's Your Why you Know? And I think a lot of ways values are about that. It's about just this basic thing of reminding yourself there are bigger reasons why I'm trying to do these difficult things in my life, these important difficult things. And turns out if you just get better at reminding yourself of those, you have so much more motivation to follow through and do those things that you aspire to do. So it's really low hanging fruit that I think a lot of us are missing, not just exploring our values but using them right, bringing them into our lives.

They're not just these abstract things. You should be using them on a regular bringing them into your life in difficult decisions, when you're trying to follow through on a particular commitment, when you're in a difficult conversation with your spouse or a person at work or whatever. It is like what you Know? Simon Sinek wrote that great book like What's Your Why you Know? And I think a lot of ways values are about that. It's about just this basic thing of reminding yourself there are bigger reasons why I'm trying to do these difficult things in my life, these important difficult things. And turns out if you just get better at reminding yourself of those, you have so much more motivation to follow through and do those things that you aspire to do. So it's really low hanging fruit that I think a lot of us are missing, not just exploring our values but using them right, bringing them into our lives.

One hundred percent got to become part of your behavioral DNA.

One hundred percent got to become part of your behavioral DNA.

Right.

Right.

And this goes back and some of my listeners. Can They'll be rolling their eyes here right because I'm going to talk about the stoic philosophers again and arete you know arite that that whole character was really all you needed to be the good life And it was basically acting with integrity and being true to your values or your virtues as they called them in those days, and that was really all that you needed. And it's actually really powerful when you go into a situation and that could end up in a heated argument, but you tap into some of your values or your virtues and actually take the higher grind and then reflect on it later on and go, actually, that was good behavior, Well done me nice.

And this goes back and some of my listeners. Can They'll be rolling their eyes here right because I'm going to talk about the stoic philosophers again and arete you know arite that that whole character was really all you needed to be the good life And it was basically acting with integrity and being true to your values or your virtues as they called them in those days, and that was really all that you needed. And it's actually really powerful when you go into a situation and that could end up in a heated argument, but you tap into some of your values or your virtues and actually take the higher grind and then reflect on it later on and go, actually, that was good behavior, Well done me nice.

I like that little reflection afterwards. It makes me think I was just doing a little workshop on communication, like people who are difficult communication scenarios. And we're talking about boundaries, right, So there's a hot topic these days. Everyone wants to know about like setting down yes. And I think boundaries are important. But I think something people misunderstand about boundaries is they think of them very negatively, like it's all about saying no, and then someone violates your boundary and you say no and you yes, yes, and that's part of it. But I think what can be really powerful people if you're trying to set, you know, a boundary, maybe with a you know, a manager at work or a relative or whatever it is, your kids, even it's important to remind yourself maybe them too, that the reason you're saying no is for a bigger yes behind it. You're not just saying no to be difficult or to be a pain in the ass, right, You're saying no because there's something, There's some bigger important value on the other side. Like why am I saying, you know, well, my kid wants to play locks for you know, the third hour in a row on Saturday, and I say no, I'm going to go for a run. I'm not just saying no because I you know, I don't like my kid or something. I'm saying yes to self care, to my health and to taking care of myself.

I like that little reflection afterwards. It makes me think I was just doing a little workshop on communication, like people who are difficult communication scenarios. And we're talking about boundaries, right, So there's a hot topic these days. Everyone wants to know about like setting down yes. And I think boundaries are important. But I think something people misunderstand about boundaries is they think of them very negatively, like it's all about saying no, and then someone violates your boundary and you say no and you yes, yes, and that's part of it. But I think what can be really powerful people if you're trying to set, you know, a boundary, maybe with a you know, a manager at work or a relative or whatever it is, your kids, even it's important to remind yourself maybe them too, that the reason you're saying no is for a bigger yes behind it. You're not just saying no to be difficult or to be a pain in the ass, right, You're saying no because there's something, There's some bigger important value on the other side. Like why am I saying, you know, well, my kid wants to play locks for you know, the third hour in a row on Saturday, and I say no, I'm going to go for a run. I'm not just saying no because I you know, I don't like my kid or something. I'm saying yes to self care, to my health and to taking care of myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, So I'm not just being saying no to be mean, right, I'm saying no because I'm trying to balance many values. I won't quality time with my kids, but I also really value my health, like I want to be around for a long time with them. It's the same no to some playtime on Saturday, so that I can say yes, right to exercise because health is a really important value for me.

Right, So I'm not just being saying no to be mean, right, I'm saying no because I'm trying to balance many values. I won't quality time with my kids, but I also really value my health, like I want to be around for a long time with them. It's the same no to some playtime on Saturday, so that I can say yes, right to exercise because health is a really important value for me.

Yeah, very good point, Very good point. And let's not let's move on to the next topic. That was a rather deep little rabbitovey.

Yeah, very good point, Very good point. And let's not let's move on to the next topic. That was a rather deep little rabbitovey.

But that's co so link to all of this stuff.

But that's co so link to all of this stuff.

It's kind of intertwined in it. But you have this this concept that stress management is a bad idea, and I think we're going to be following a familiar theme here, right, Yeah, so this.

It's kind of intertwined in it. But you have this this concept that stress management is a bad idea, and I think we're going to be following a familiar theme here, right, Yeah, so this.

Is definitely a little poking the bear. It's not just provocative. I think there's a deeper truth on your here. But something I see in a lot of my work, whether it was for years when I was doing therapy with folks but now in more of my corporate work or with my students, is managing your stress can often be a distraction from doing more important. Now, what I mean to this is, I think there's this important distinction between stress and a stressor. Right, so if I'm out for a height and again, like a bear jumps out in front of me, the you know, me feeling tense and my heart rate going up, and like that's a stress response. Stress is what happens to your body physiologically, the stressor is the bear, right, that's the thing triggering or generating the stress in the first place. So it's really what people end up doing, though I think is so problematic is they forget about the stressor and all they're doing is thinking about the stress anytime they get stressed. The question isn't why am I getting stressed in the first place, The question is how can I feel less stressed, which, again very normal thing to want to feel like I hate feeling stressed, Like I don't want to fel stressed when I'm stressed. And I think there are times when literally managing your stress, do some deep breathing exercises or go for a run or like whatever it is, like, that's fine. But what I don't like is where we get so consumed with managing our stress that we don't focus at all and do anything about the origins of that stress. And where I see this a lot is this usually takes the form of assertive communication. If you're chronically stressed, nine times out of ten, it's because there's a difficult conversation you need to have that you're avoiding. It might be with your spouse, it might be with your manager, it might be with your kids, it might be with your parent, it might be their best friend, it might be with your barista at Starbucks. I don't know, right, but so often the source of our chronic stress is an actual issue or problem out there that we need to address, probably a conversation that we need to have, but because it's difficult and uncomfortable addressing the source.

Is definitely a little poking the bear. It's not just provocative. I think there's a deeper truth on your here. But something I see in a lot of my work, whether it was for years when I was doing therapy with folks but now in more of my corporate work or with my students, is managing your stress can often be a distraction from doing more important. Now, what I mean to this is, I think there's this important distinction between stress and a stressor. Right, so if I'm out for a height and again, like a bear jumps out in front of me, the you know, me feeling tense and my heart rate going up, and like that's a stress response. Stress is what happens to your body physiologically, the stressor is the bear, right, that's the thing triggering or generating the stress in the first place. So it's really what people end up doing, though I think is so problematic is they forget about the stressor and all they're doing is thinking about the stress anytime they get stressed. The question isn't why am I getting stressed in the first place, The question is how can I feel less stressed, which, again very normal thing to want to feel like I hate feeling stressed, Like I don't want to fel stressed when I'm stressed. And I think there are times when literally managing your stress, do some deep breathing exercises or go for a run or like whatever it is, like, that's fine. But what I don't like is where we get so consumed with managing our stress that we don't focus at all and do anything about the origins of that stress. And where I see this a lot is this usually takes the form of assertive communication. If you're chronically stressed, nine times out of ten, it's because there's a difficult conversation you need to have that you're avoiding. It might be with your spouse, it might be with your manager, it might be with your kids, it might be with your parent, it might be their best friend, it might be with your barista at Starbucks. I don't know, right, but so often the source of our chronic stress is an actual issue or problem out there that we need to address, probably a conversation that we need to have, but because it's difficult and uncomfortable addressing the source.

We end up.

We end up.

I like people do this explicitly, but because it's easier, right, we fall back to, well, I'm just going to do some deep breathing as sizes, or I'm gonna have a glass of wine or whatever. I'm just going to try and manage the stress itself. So any we can probably get into more of this. But that's what I don't like about the idea of stress management is that it's often an avoidance mechanism for looking about these sources of stress in the first place.

I like people do this explicitly, but because it's easier, right, we fall back to, well, I'm just going to do some deep breathing as sizes, or I'm gonna have a glass of wine or whatever. I'm just going to try and manage the stress itself. So any we can probably get into more of this. But that's what I don't like about the idea of stress management is that it's often an avoidance mechanism for looking about these sources of stress in the first place.

And I would build on this.

And I would build on this.

What I don't like about the term stress management is the inference that all stress is bad and has to be managed. Right, there's you know, there's de stress, and there's you stress, and you know anybody here's who's listening. I want you to think about your biggest achievement in your life, like the stuff that you are super super proud of, And then did it involve stress and being out of your comfort zone? And I guarantee you, for ninety nine percent of people, the answer is a resignding yes.

What I don't like about the term stress management is the inference that all stress is bad and has to be managed. Right, there's you know, there's de stress, and there's you stress, and you know anybody here's who's listening. I want you to think about your biggest achievement in your life, like the stuff that you are super super proud of, And then did it involve stress and being out of your comfort zone? And I guarantee you, for ninety nine percent of people, the answer is a resignding yes.

That is where we grow.

That is where we grow.

And I think we've we've created a society where this whole idea that stress is bad and is making things worse for quite a lot of people, and that that that your.

And I think we've we've created a society where this whole idea that stress is bad and is making things worse for quite a lot of people, and that that that your.

Attitude as well.

Attitude as well.

And this opens up the whole conversation around this, this attitude around challenging threat that we know that if we are me and you are faced with the exact same stressor if I view it as a threat, it I start to become have all those negative emotions and avoidance behaviors. But what it does physiologically that threat and psychology activates cortisol and the major stress hormone, which.

And this opens up the whole conversation around this, this attitude around challenging threat that we know that if we are me and you are faced with the exact same stressor if I view it as a threat, it I start to become have all those negative emotions and avoidance behaviors. But what it does physiologically that threat and psychology activates cortisol and the major stress hormone, which.

Has a half life of more than an r.

Has a half life of more than an r.

Whereas if you view the same thing as a challenge, not only does that change your psychology and probably your behavior around it, but it changes your physiology because it activates your fight or flight response and the chemicals adrenaline and nord adrenaline, which you'll know is Epinefforn and nor Epeneffor and right, and they have a half life of less than a minute, so very quickly you're back to homeostasis, whereas in our leader, I'm still in a hypervigilant state. There's cortisol going through my body, and we know that chronic cortisol ravages your body in your brain, and a lot of that comes from people's just their attitude around it. And that's one of the reasons why fundamentally I hate the term stress management, and that you know, we need to encourage people to have more of that challenge response. But again, I'll just finish off with my rant, is that a challenge response, like I can only really have a challenge response if I believe that I have the resources to be able to deal with it. And that actually comes back to having done hard stuff in a lot of and a lot of things. I believe that I can do this because I've done this before, Whereas if I have a history of avoidance behaviors, of course I've got no belief that I'm going to be able to come this challenge, and then I'm gonna go into a threat response and avoidance behaviors and blah blah blah blah blah.

Whereas if you view the same thing as a challenge, not only does that change your psychology and probably your behavior around it, but it changes your physiology because it activates your fight or flight response and the chemicals adrenaline and nord adrenaline, which you'll know is Epinefforn and nor Epeneffor and right, and they have a half life of less than a minute, so very quickly you're back to homeostasis, whereas in our leader, I'm still in a hypervigilant state. There's cortisol going through my body, and we know that chronic cortisol ravages your body in your brain, and a lot of that comes from people's just their attitude around it. And that's one of the reasons why fundamentally I hate the term stress management, and that you know, we need to encourage people to have more of that challenge response. But again, I'll just finish off with my rant, is that a challenge response, like I can only really have a challenge response if I believe that I have the resources to be able to deal with it. And that actually comes back to having done hard stuff in a lot of and a lot of things. I believe that I can do this because I've done this before, Whereas if I have a history of avoidance behaviors, of course I've got no belief that I'm going to be able to come this challenge, and then I'm gonna go into a threat response and avoidance behaviors and blah blah blah blah blah.

Anyway, that's my runt. I'll throw that back over to you.

Anyway, that's my runt. I'll throw that back over to you.

I love this because it reminds me of one of my favorite ideas in all of psychology and really in all of life, I think, but I think about it in the context of psychology all the time, and that is it's kind of a mouthful, but incrementalism, and incrementalism is kind of a fancy term for this thing we all basically know, which is if you want to get better at something in life like, it basically requires slow, steady progress. You do. You know, if you want to learn, if you want to be a great piano player, you don't just try and play Beethoven. It's not gonna work. You're gonna suck and then you're gonna feel bad. And it's like, that's not how you do it. What do you do? You play Twinkle Twink a Little Star right until you get kind of good at Twinkle Twink a Little Star. Then you play chop sticks, then you play whatever, and you slowly but surely incrementally, you work your way up, building both competence, ability and skill, yes, and confidence. That's where confidence come, everyone wants more confidence.

I love this because it reminds me of one of my favorite ideas in all of psychology and really in all of life, I think, but I think about it in the context of psychology all the time, and that is it's kind of a mouthful, but incrementalism, and incrementalism is kind of a fancy term for this thing we all basically know, which is if you want to get better at something in life like, it basically requires slow, steady progress. You do. You know, if you want to learn, if you want to be a great piano player, you don't just try and play Beethoven. It's not gonna work. You're gonna suck and then you're gonna feel bad. And it's like, that's not how you do it. What do you do? You play Twinkle Twink a Little Star right until you get kind of good at Twinkle Twink a Little Star. Then you play chop sticks, then you play whatever, and you slowly but surely incrementally, you work your way up, building both competence, ability and skill, yes, and confidence. That's where confidence come, everyone wants more confidence.

Like confidence comes from competence, right exactly.

Like confidence comes from competence, right exactly.

But I think a lot of people make this mistake, especially with kind of personal growth, self improvement, psychological type topics. Again, they think, oh, I read this great book about being more assertive, so I'm going to go like barge into my boss's office and like demand a fifty percent raise or else I'm quitting or something, And then like that doesn't go real, Well, that's because you haven't practiced being more assertive in kind of a gradual way. Or you decide, Okay, I'm gonna do this big thing, and then you chicken out every time. Why is it because you're not It's not because you're a bad person. It's because you're trying to play Beethoven when you haven't learned how to play Twinkle Twinkle.