Good everyone, Welcome to the show. This is Wrong with the Punches podcast and I'm your host, Tip Cook, and today we are speaking to our sole sister, Donna Lyon for the second time, but it's been a red hot minute. Last time we spoke to Donna, she was really at the very beginning of launching what is now the incredible organization that is Left Right Hook, the incredible organization that has just released a feature film documentary award winning It's amazing. I just saw it recently, Left Right Hook. It's an organization that is survivor led healing for child sexual abuse survivors. If you haven't seen the film, which you probably haven't, go and seek it out and find a screening or hold a screening, host of screening. It is powerful, It is beautiful, It is weirdly joy full. I cried most of the way through it, and I don't know, I want a lot of people to experience it because it really does showcase the power, the visceral power of boxing and speaking and healing and writing and amalgamating those worlds how they beautifully collide and cut a pold us forward. So enjoy this conversation. Super proud to be holding it and we'll see you at the other side. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the t at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Doctor Donna Lyon, Welcome to a Roll with the punches.

Good everyone, Welcome to the show. This is Wrong with the Punches podcast and I'm your host, Tip Cook, and today we are speaking to our sole sister, Donna Lyon for the second time, but it's been a red hot minute. Last time we spoke to Donna, she was really at the very beginning of launching what is now the incredible organization that is Left Right Hook, the incredible organization that has just released a feature film documentary award winning It's amazing. I just saw it recently, Left Right Hook. It's an organization that is survivor led healing for child sexual abuse survivors. If you haven't seen the film, which you probably haven't, go and seek it out and find a screening or hold a screening, host of screening. It is powerful, It is beautiful, It is weirdly joy full. I cried most of the way through it, and I don't know, I want a lot of people to experience it because it really does showcase the power, the visceral power of boxing and speaking and healing and writing and amalgamating those worlds how they beautifully collide and cut a pold us forward. So enjoy this conversation. Super proud to be holding it and we'll see you at the other side. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the t at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Doctor Donna Lyon, Welcome to a Roll with the punches.

Hey, thanks, great to be here.

Hey, thanks, great to be here.

As usual, last time I welcomed you to the show, it was welcome almost Doctor Lion, and I remember that by the time I recorded the episode, sorry, recorded the intro and put the episode live, you had earned the doctor title.

As usual, last time I welcomed you to the show, it was welcome almost Doctor Lion, and I remember that by the time I recorded the episode, sorry, recorded the intro and put the episode live, you had earned the doctor title.

I am finally a doctor, and yet my nickname is doc Doc Lion, so it's cool. And yeah, you know, a lot's changed since I was on the show. I think that was twenty twenty one, and I was really at the foundations of so many different things in my career, and since then it's just sort of I guess catapulted in many different ways, hasn't it.

I am finally a doctor, and yet my nickname is doc Doc Lion, so it's cool. And yeah, you know, a lot's changed since I was on the show. I think that was twenty twenty one, and I was really at the foundations of so many different things in my career, and since then it's just sort of I guess catapulted in many different ways, hasn't it.

Ever, it feels like a moment ago we talk. It feels like yesterday that we met for the first time. And also not to spend a bit of a time the last few years, but I just saw you in person. Was it two weeks ago?

Ever, it feels like a moment ago we talk. It feels like yesterday that we met for the first time. And also not to spend a bit of a time the last few years, but I just saw you in person. Was it two weeks ago?

Ish ye mid August for a black carpet premiere of Left Right Hook the documentary Gold.

Ish ye mid August for a black carpet premiere of Left Right Hook the documentary Gold.

I'm so incredibly proud of you for that of al got goosb. I'm saying it for that event, for that film, for the whole program, and I just want to say that I cried throughout the entire film and it was and not a bat like a beautiful cry I have. I just couldn't have thought that anyone would produce such a touching, raw, vulnerable, impactful documentary that really gets to the heart of the issue in a really beautiful way.

I'm so incredibly proud of you for that of al got goosb. I'm saying it for that event, for that film, for the whole program, and I just want to say that I cried throughout the entire film and it was and not a bat like a beautiful cry I have. I just couldn't have thought that anyone would produce such a touching, raw, vulnerable, impactful documentary that really gets to the heart of the issue in a really beautiful way.

I just loved it long the things, And you know, it's hard for me because I'm in it, so I probably don't have that greatest objectivity. I mean, it's been an incredible experience at Melbourne International Film Festival where it's bigger than me. It's not about me the film. You know, we are just vehicles for the discussion around a greater topic and subject matter and all of that, you know, being child sexual abuse and complex trauma. But you know, it's still an awkward It's an awkward fit for me because you know, I'm so immersed and I haven't yet kind of been able to maintain that objectivity of understanding. But I am seeing and feeling certainly the impact of the film, and that really does make me happy.

I just loved it long the things, And you know, it's hard for me because I'm in it, so I probably don't have that greatest objectivity. I mean, it's been an incredible experience at Melbourne International Film Festival where it's bigger than me. It's not about me the film. You know, we are just vehicles for the discussion around a greater topic and subject matter and all of that, you know, being child sexual abuse and complex trauma. But you know, it's still an awkward It's an awkward fit for me because you know, I'm so immersed and I haven't yet kind of been able to maintain that objectivity of understanding. But I am seeing and feeling certainly the impact of the film, and that really does make me happy.

Yeah, what was the process like in terms of feeling? I imagine there were times, because I know I do. I mean, I have the most beautiful, raw, vulnerable conversations on this show. Nature their therapeutic for myself, their therapeutic for my guests, their therapeutic for listeners who get to connect with them. Then you know, we, like yourself, we make sure we do things in a really, really careful and caring and informed way. But also in the middle of some of those times, I imagine you when you're getting television cameras, in the middle of people's moments and realizations and what came up throughout that.

Yeah, what was the process like in terms of feeling? I imagine there were times, because I know I do. I mean, I have the most beautiful, raw, vulnerable conversations on this show. Nature their therapeutic for myself, their therapeutic for my guests, their therapeutic for listeners who get to connect with them. Then you know, we, like yourself, we make sure we do things in a really, really careful and caring and informed way. But also in the middle of some of those times, I imagine you when you're getting television cameras, in the middle of people's moments and realizations and what came up throughout that.

I think I was more focused for the past few years on the participants and making sure that we I guess had dealt with the filming and the process in a really trauma informed and ethical way. And so for me, I knew I needed to be in it because I knew I needed to be if I was expecting vulnerability from them, I needed to be vulnerable, right, But I perhaps hadn't accounted for the high level of self discomfort that would arise, which I talked to them about, and I felt like I'd adequately prepped people for, but maybe not myself. It kind of I thought that I had by talking to them and telling them about all the risks and the process and all the feelings that would come up, that I understood that implicitly. But I think until the premier year I kind of got rocked around because I was just like, oh shit, it's real, you know. But yeah, I think we spent a lot of time in deep conversation and through a really iterative process, meaning kind of step by step we went deeper into the filmmaking process, and everyone was given complete agency throughout the process, and every decision was made in collaboration and conversation. So I don't think I understood perhaps the YEA, the deeper impact.

I think I was more focused for the past few years on the participants and making sure that we I guess had dealt with the filming and the process in a really trauma informed and ethical way. And so for me, I knew I needed to be in it because I knew I needed to be if I was expecting vulnerability from them, I needed to be vulnerable, right, But I perhaps hadn't accounted for the high level of self discomfort that would arise, which I talked to them about, and I felt like I'd adequately prepped people for, but maybe not myself. It kind of I thought that I had by talking to them and telling them about all the risks and the process and all the feelings that would come up, that I understood that implicitly. But I think until the premier year I kind of got rocked around because I was just like, oh shit, it's real, you know. But yeah, I think we spent a lot of time in deep conversation and through a really iterative process, meaning kind of step by step we went deeper into the filmmaking process, and everyone was given complete agency throughout the process, and every decision was made in collaboration and conversation. So I don't think I understood perhaps the YEA, the deeper impact.

Yeah, it's very like that's an interesting point the idea that knowing and understanding is not doing and being, and.

Yeah, it's very like that's an interesting point the idea that knowing and understanding is not doing and being, and.

It takes time. I think it takes time for things to like kind of become embodied, for us to deeply connect all the pieces. And that's that sort of experiential idea of knowledge right and meaning making. And you can theoretically understand concepts, but until you sort of embody them and apply that apply them in practice, you know, that's a different part of knowledge translation for sure. And I guess i'd sort of assumed that by coming up with this framework and being so instrumental in the development of that, that I had sort of just deeply understood it. Yeah, but you know, it's been a process, and it's not a it's not a bad process. It's it just probably through me. I think what I've enjoyed is that the participants who have engaged in the film you have actually found it deeply empowering and that, you know, that feels my heart right because it's like, tick, we've done. We've done a good job. But I kind of maybe forgot about myself in the process.

It takes time. I think it takes time for things to like kind of become embodied, for us to deeply connect all the pieces. And that's that sort of experiential idea of knowledge right and meaning making. And you can theoretically understand concepts, but until you sort of embody them and apply that apply them in practice, you know, that's a different part of knowledge translation for sure. And I guess i'd sort of assumed that by coming up with this framework and being so instrumental in the development of that, that I had sort of just deeply understood it. Yeah, but you know, it's been a process, and it's not a it's not a bad process. It's it just probably through me. I think what I've enjoyed is that the participants who have engaged in the film you have actually found it deeply empowering and that, you know, that feels my heart right because it's like, tick, we've done. We've done a good job. But I kind of maybe forgot about myself in the process.

What's what did you learn that you didn't expect to learn? What did you uncover or what came up, either in the middle or the end of the process, that that was unexpected or different.

What's what did you learn that you didn't expect to learn? What did you uncover or what came up, either in the middle or the end of the process, that that was unexpected or different.

I think it's probably still around that idea of the discomfort of kind of accepting yourself. And I talked to the participants about that. That film captures you in a unique moment in time, and it fixes you to that. But the truth is, as we know, life is not fixed. It moves, it's dynamic, it's constantly shifting. We change. So I'm not the person I was three years ago, right, And so to see myself on screen in that moment, I you know, it's like it's it fills me with great a sense of judgment and shame. And I hope that that will shift and over time and I'll be able to accept and value who I was at that point. But unfortunately, I'm still kind of in that deficit base thinking, right, And so I think that's been the difficult thing sometimes where You'll look, I feel like I've gotten I've made so many strides with the with my recovery and my trauma, and I've dealt with so much, right, I've overcome so much, and then to kind of sometimes be back on your kind of knees, you know, going, oh my God, like I still hate myself, you know. In fact, I'm still am full of shame. What you know, I thought i'd let go of so much and I and I think I have, But it's in credible with trauma, how deep the layers are and that and I think that tension between self acceptance and you know, we can say if you just accept yourself, you know you're worthy, you deserve it, and it's they're just you know again, it's experiential knowledge. It's you know, it's such a layered, complex process that for me has probably taken or is taking years.

I think it's probably still around that idea of the discomfort of kind of accepting yourself. And I talked to the participants about that. That film captures you in a unique moment in time, and it fixes you to that. But the truth is, as we know, life is not fixed. It moves, it's dynamic, it's constantly shifting. We change. So I'm not the person I was three years ago, right, And so to see myself on screen in that moment, I you know, it's like it's it fills me with great a sense of judgment and shame. And I hope that that will shift and over time and I'll be able to accept and value who I was at that point. But unfortunately, I'm still kind of in that deficit base thinking, right, And so I think that's been the difficult thing sometimes where You'll look, I feel like I've gotten I've made so many strides with the with my recovery and my trauma, and I've dealt with so much, right, I've overcome so much, and then to kind of sometimes be back on your kind of knees, you know, going, oh my God, like I still hate myself, you know. In fact, I'm still am full of shame. What you know, I thought i'd let go of so much and I and I think I have, But it's in credible with trauma, how deep the layers are and that and I think that tension between self acceptance and you know, we can say if you just accept yourself, you know you're worthy, you deserve it, and it's they're just you know again, it's experiential knowledge. It's you know, it's such a layered, complex process that for me has probably taken or is taking years.

Yeah, I love that. I love and thank you for being the type of person that is really open and honest and sharing this experience as you're in it, because there'd be a lot of people who, given your position of developing this program and leading it and facilitating it, would step into an even unconsciously an identity of I must be a step ahead, I must be healed. I must not show because I don't want others to think that we you know that, And it's I really relate to it, and I really like I love the fact that I have. It's almost like these chronicles of conversations recorded that I go back and listen to now and go, oh, listen to me. Actually, when I listen to it now, I am dodging the answers to a question. And I didn't feel like I was dodging them at the time. But I was still tricking myself around my beliefs and my understandings of me and what I And because I've always said I'm such a good storyteller, we make meaning of things. And the meaning I made was this archetype of the human that was strung and independent and had the answers and didn't give it, you know, like no one can break me. And it was like, oh, I was that's because I was so bloody broken you just couldn't break me anymore.

Yeah, I love that. I love and thank you for being the type of person that is really open and honest and sharing this experience as you're in it, because there'd be a lot of people who, given your position of developing this program and leading it and facilitating it, would step into an even unconsciously an identity of I must be a step ahead, I must be healed. I must not show because I don't want others to think that we you know that, And it's I really relate to it, and I really like I love the fact that I have. It's almost like these chronicles of conversations recorded that I go back and listen to now and go, oh, listen to me. Actually, when I listen to it now, I am dodging the answers to a question. And I didn't feel like I was dodging them at the time. But I was still tricking myself around my beliefs and my understandings of me and what I And because I've always said I'm such a good storyteller, we make meaning of things. And the meaning I made was this archetype of the human that was strung and independent and had the answers and didn't give it, you know, like no one can break me. And it was like, oh, I was that's because I was so bloody broken you just couldn't break me anymore.

Only but they're captured right again, were capturing those moments in time, you know, on video on recordings, and it's uncomfortable because you know, we're really seeing and illuminating those sides of ourselves that maybe kind of I don't know, they're just not fixed.

Only but they're captured right again, were capturing those moments in time, you know, on video on recordings, and it's uncomfortable because you know, we're really seeing and illuminating those sides of ourselves that maybe kind of I don't know, they're just not fixed.

Yeah, And I don't know. I love that about yourself. There was a really really powerful part, well, there was a lot of powerful parts in the movie. One of the parts that I really loved and was like, they are some brave, brave men that said yes to hopping in the boxing ring with child sexual abuse survivors who were going through a therapeutic program to get belted. When you know that there's there's literally we're bringing emotional things up and then we're having a physical outlet to that where these connections can be made in a moment, can be applied in this situation where they may not normally.

Yeah, And I don't know. I love that about yourself. There was a really really powerful part, well, there was a lot of powerful parts in the movie. One of the parts that I really loved and was like, they are some brave, brave men that said yes to hopping in the boxing ring with child sexual abuse survivors who were going through a therapeutic program to get belted. When you know that there's there's literally we're bringing emotional things up and then we're having a physical outlet to that where these connections can be made in a moment, can be applied in this situation where they may not normally.

Yeah, for sure. And we dubbed that moment like boxing with the Boys, And I love that. It's my favorite part of the film. And you know, I guess, like Leffrock Hook isn't a therapeutic intervention, right because it's survivor led, so we don't have therapists in the room, but it is therapeutic in that the results are therapeutic in nature. So I just want to kind of draw a line in the sand there. But you know, it was very risky, right, But I guess I felt like as someone with a boxing background, and I'm sure you'll get it, it's very different from punching a pad or a bag to then punching someone in the face. Yeah, it's even more different getting punched in the face. It wasn't appropriate for us in the filmmaking scenario to have any survivor's hit at any point of course, right, because it was about them developing a sense of agency and empowerment and them kind of unleashing. But these were trained male boxes that were used to taking punches. But by the end I did say to one of the guys, I was like, mate, you're right, like if you got a black eye, and he's like, no, no, no, thanks Donna. That was amazing, Like just like I'm so grateful, thanks so much. And he got so much out of kind of being a punching bag for these women who had felt so deeply powerless because of what had happened to them, and for them to work with a male in a way where he was just like, come on, hit me, hit me. I'm not going to you know, like come on, you can go to the body, you know, come on, you can do it. You got more in you, you know, and encouraging them and like you know, you saw her in the film, like one woman, Nicky, she hows right, she cries like lits up this guttural scream like and and I'm just standing at the side of the room going oh my gole, like it's all like, this is it, It's over. But I just I loved her ability to be so vulnerable in that moment and for him to accept that vulnerability and then to see it though as strength. You know that both sides are the coin. And you know, she ended up having a body memory after that, But again, that was really healthy, right. She needed to shake it out of her body, like Peter Levine talks about that in his books, and you know that, you know, you need to shake it out, and that's what happens when I've had body members in the past, Like I'm shivering and shaking and it's so uncomfortable, but that's me processing trauma. It's a good thing. And I think Nicki had enough recovery and therapy under her belt to deeply understand that. But you know, it's a yeah, it's probably not something that we now do in the charity, although I'd love to. I just don't know if I can get it past governance right now. But yeah, I think it was a very It's a unique aspect of the film, and I'm so glad that we put it in there.

Yeah, for sure. And we dubbed that moment like boxing with the Boys, And I love that. It's my favorite part of the film. And you know, I guess, like Leffrock Hook isn't a therapeutic intervention, right because it's survivor led, so we don't have therapists in the room, but it is therapeutic in that the results are therapeutic in nature. So I just want to kind of draw a line in the sand there. But you know, it was very risky, right, But I guess I felt like as someone with a boxing background, and I'm sure you'll get it, it's very different from punching a pad or a bag to then punching someone in the face. Yeah, it's even more different getting punched in the face. It wasn't appropriate for us in the filmmaking scenario to have any survivor's hit at any point of course, right, because it was about them developing a sense of agency and empowerment and them kind of unleashing. But these were trained male boxes that were used to taking punches. But by the end I did say to one of the guys, I was like, mate, you're right, like if you got a black eye, and he's like, no, no, no, thanks Donna. That was amazing, Like just like I'm so grateful, thanks so much. And he got so much out of kind of being a punching bag for these women who had felt so deeply powerless because of what had happened to them, and for them to work with a male in a way where he was just like, come on, hit me, hit me. I'm not going to you know, like come on, you can go to the body, you know, come on, you can do it. You got more in you, you know, and encouraging them and like you know, you saw her in the film, like one woman, Nicky, she hows right, she cries like lits up this guttural scream like and and I'm just standing at the side of the room going oh my gole, like it's all like, this is it, It's over. But I just I loved her ability to be so vulnerable in that moment and for him to accept that vulnerability and then to see it though as strength. You know that both sides are the coin. And you know, she ended up having a body memory after that, But again, that was really healthy, right. She needed to shake it out of her body, like Peter Levine talks about that in his books, and you know that, you know, you need to shake it out, and that's what happens when I've had body members in the past, Like I'm shivering and shaking and it's so uncomfortable, but that's me processing trauma. It's a good thing. And I think Nicki had enough recovery and therapy under her belt to deeply understand that. But you know, it's a yeah, it's probably not something that we now do in the charity, although I'd love to. I just don't know if I can get it past governance right now. But yeah, I think it was a very It's a unique aspect of the film, and I'm so glad that we put it in there.

Really is I was thinking about I've talked a lot, well, a few conversations recently explaining to people at this idea of the boxing ring and the identity and for me, the boundaries. I've been talking a lot about the boundaries and the rules, and I guess the connections that I'm still I still think I struggle to bring out of the boxing ring. You know, It's like in the boxing ring, I have rules and the opponent has rules, and so when I know that the rule, what the rules are, I am very powerful in my ability to enforce them. And when I look back at my first fight, which I never really analyzed this way before, I remember thinking, I remember going back to the corner in first round and my coach yelling at me, going what are you doing? And of course I was in a bit of a dissociated state. Was all very overwhelming, and I was like, I don't what do you mean? I don't know. I'm just in there, flurrying. There's bloody limb flying everywhere, and I'm punching and they're punching, Like I don't know, what do you mean? And he's like, why do you keep stopping? And I'm like what I didn't realize. So every time my opponent stopped fighting me, I would stop fighting them. They stopped fighting back and covered. I would stop because it's like, oh, we're fighting, and when you're not fighting, we stop fighting, and I'll wait for you to fight and then I'll punch you back in the face again, this unconscious thing. And that was like a rule following thing for me. And so it was like, I don't have if I don't know the rules, I don't enforce anything. That was just interesting to me. I just love that.

Really is I was thinking about I've talked a lot, well, a few conversations recently explaining to people at this idea of the boxing ring and the identity and for me, the boundaries. I've been talking a lot about the boundaries and the rules, and I guess the connections that I'm still I still think I struggle to bring out of the boxing ring. You know, It's like in the boxing ring, I have rules and the opponent has rules, and so when I know that the rule, what the rules are, I am very powerful in my ability to enforce them. And when I look back at my first fight, which I never really analyzed this way before, I remember thinking, I remember going back to the corner in first round and my coach yelling at me, going what are you doing? And of course I was in a bit of a dissociated state. Was all very overwhelming, and I was like, I don't what do you mean? I don't know. I'm just in there, flurrying. There's bloody limb flying everywhere, and I'm punching and they're punching, Like I don't know, what do you mean? And he's like, why do you keep stopping? And I'm like what I didn't realize. So every time my opponent stopped fighting me, I would stop fighting them. They stopped fighting back and covered. I would stop because it's like, oh, we're fighting, and when you're not fighting, we stop fighting, and I'll wait for you to fight and then I'll punch you back in the face again, this unconscious thing. And that was like a rule following thing for me. And so it was like, I don't have if I don't know the rules, I don't enforce anything. That was just interesting to me. I just love that.

I mean, I've just seen boxing is a great metaphor for life. And you know, particularly though around those notions of how we an act movement under deep stress. And you know, for me it was to dissociate and to freeze. For others it might be fawning. And what we see in left Right Hook is this continual narrative where the women and gender diverse survivors in our space they find it very difficult to punch. They're okay to be punched, they're okay to receive it, but as soon as they have to have agency and punch someone and it's just held through pads, right, they don't cry. It brings up this emotion. I don't want to I don't want to hurt them. No, you're not going to hurt them, like you know, they're not going to hurt them, like they're holding pads, are not going to hurt This is a consensual space. So we have to talk about that. But they I don't want to be like the person that hurt me. So by them being the kind of dominant active agent in that process, it means that they're embodying the role of the perpetrator. Now we know like as boxes that you know you can't you actually have to hear. You have to hear, right, very dangerous if you don't, and I didn't for a long time, I would freeze. And my trainers are like, yeah, hit, oh right right, I had to get that trained out of me. And but I was willing to kind of go through that very visceral form of training. But yeah, I just find that a really interesting notion that survivors really struggle with that, not all, but probably about eighty percent in a group.

I mean, I've just seen boxing is a great metaphor for life. And you know, particularly though around those notions of how we an act movement under deep stress. And you know, for me it was to dissociate and to freeze. For others it might be fawning. And what we see in left Right Hook is this continual narrative where the women and gender diverse survivors in our space they find it very difficult to punch. They're okay to be punched, they're okay to receive it, but as soon as they have to have agency and punch someone and it's just held through pads, right, they don't cry. It brings up this emotion. I don't want to I don't want to hurt them. No, you're not going to hurt them, like you know, they're not going to hurt them, like they're holding pads, are not going to hurt This is a consensual space. So we have to talk about that. But they I don't want to be like the person that hurt me. So by them being the kind of dominant active agent in that process, it means that they're embodying the role of the perpetrator. Now we know like as boxes that you know you can't you actually have to hear. You have to hear, right, very dangerous if you don't, and I didn't for a long time, I would freeze. And my trainers are like, yeah, hit, oh right right, I had to get that trained out of me. And but I was willing to kind of go through that very visceral form of training. But yeah, I just find that a really interesting notion that survivors really struggle with that, not all, but probably about eighty percent in a group.

And does it tend to play out the same with that same story or is there are there versions to it? You know, Like I remember out my first conversation you and us feeling like, oh, we have these stories and then we found this sport at an older age, and then we stepped into the boxing ring, and my relationship with what happened in there was different to your relationship with what happened in there. So it was polar opposites. But outside of the competition it was in so are they Is there different versions of that why they can't throw a punch or does it tend to be that same? I don't want to be like them.

And does it tend to play out the same with that same story or is there are there versions to it? You know, Like I remember out my first conversation you and us feeling like, oh, we have these stories and then we found this sport at an older age, and then we stepped into the boxing ring, and my relationship with what happened in there was different to your relationship with what happened in there. So it was polar opposites. But outside of the competition it was in so are they Is there different versions of that why they can't throw a punch or does it tend to be that same? I don't want to be like them.

I think it is. I think it's yeah. I mean Judith Hermann, who's an amazing author, has written book Trauma and Recovery and a number of other books, but talks about how trauma leaves you feeling powerless. Yeah, And so I think people's tendency therefore is to lack awareness of their needs, lack awareness of boundaries. They're people pleasers. They they say yes all the time, which is, you know, a form of people pleasing. So those are really common traits, and so the ability for people to stand up and kind of be an active agent for themselves is really hard. Now, probably someone like me, I would say, I'm probably quite dominant, quite assertive. It was always like that as a kid, and so again, you know, there's different types, but I still lack boundaries, struggle to say what I need. I don't know what I need. I lack a complete awareness of that. I have to really dig deep to understand that. I feel guilty if I ask for what I need. And you know, I'm a people pleaser, so I'm constantly saying yes to things because I don't really know how to say no. And so I think, you know, obviously I've worked on a lot of that stuff and I have a greater awareness around it, but I can still default to those patterns. And I think it's learned helplessness, being powerless as a kid, being so disconnected from my body and my mind through the trauma that I'm struggling to kind of catch up and make that connection in a way that perhaps somebody who hasn't been abused can do that at a faster, speedier rate. Boxing's great for that, right because it's constantly, you know, pushing you to be you know, tactile and active and you know responsive, and if someone touches you, you've got to hit back to them, et cetera. So there's this constant, like your building muscle that you can then apply to your everyday life. I think you're consciously working to make those connection points.

I think it is. I think it's yeah. I mean Judith Hermann, who's an amazing author, has written book Trauma and Recovery and a number of other books, but talks about how trauma leaves you feeling powerless. Yeah, And so I think people's tendency therefore is to lack awareness of their needs, lack awareness of boundaries. They're people pleasers. They they say yes all the time, which is, you know, a form of people pleasing. So those are really common traits, and so the ability for people to stand up and kind of be an active agent for themselves is really hard. Now, probably someone like me, I would say, I'm probably quite dominant, quite assertive. It was always like that as a kid, and so again, you know, there's different types, but I still lack boundaries, struggle to say what I need. I don't know what I need. I lack a complete awareness of that. I have to really dig deep to understand that. I feel guilty if I ask for what I need. And you know, I'm a people pleaser, so I'm constantly saying yes to things because I don't really know how to say no. And so I think, you know, obviously I've worked on a lot of that stuff and I have a greater awareness around it, but I can still default to those patterns. And I think it's learned helplessness, being powerless as a kid, being so disconnected from my body and my mind through the trauma that I'm struggling to kind of catch up and make that connection in a way that perhaps somebody who hasn't been abused can do that at a faster, speedier rate. Boxing's great for that, right because it's constantly, you know, pushing you to be you know, tactile and active and you know responsive, and if someone touches you, you've got to hit back to them, et cetera. So there's this constant, like your building muscle that you can then apply to your everyday life. I think you're consciously working to make those connection points.

Yes. Yeah. The idea of vulnerability and intimacy and relationships and connection and letting people in is interesting to me. And when I first started the podcast, I quickly dubbed it my aversion of it was like my emotional boxing ring. Like the canvas was this place of understanding me and self awareness and my drama and learning that my fears were actually around safety and connection and people and relationships and intimacy and abandonment and all of the shitty things. And then the podcast arena gave me this space where it's like I was going in doing rounds of speaking up and sharing and being seen and in and really in again in this way that has kind of boundaries and rules, like we know this is a public conversation. Me and my guest know that what's being said is being heard. It's not in the shadows. So I think that's it's powerful for me, this idea of not being hidden anymore.

Yes. Yeah. The idea of vulnerability and intimacy and relationships and connection and letting people in is interesting to me. And when I first started the podcast, I quickly dubbed it my aversion of it was like my emotional boxing ring. Like the canvas was this place of understanding me and self awareness and my drama and learning that my fears were actually around safety and connection and people and relationships and intimacy and abandonment and all of the shitty things. And then the podcast arena gave me this space where it's like I was going in doing rounds of speaking up and sharing and being seen and in and really in again in this way that has kind of boundaries and rules, like we know this is a public conversation. Me and my guest know that what's being said is being heard. It's not in the shadows. So I think that's it's powerful for me, this idea of not being hidden anymore.

Like I think that's what we do. Like in Left Hook, I'm really passionate about that, Like it's not just the physical, it's not just boxing, you know, we write we come together where we move and from this very internal, self reflective space, we give voice to it through sharing. We do that in community, and then we learn the art of boxing, right, And what you're saying is the same. You know, you've got this kind of applied practice in the ring through the physicality of your sports and your boxing and all your other training and your strength based training, and then you come into this other very and it is a creative space because it's communicative and so but it's reflective. It's giving voice to the hidden narratives. It's beginning to find a language for how you think, feel, see the world and doing that in community, in conversation with others. So very similar.

Like I think that's what we do. Like in Left Hook, I'm really passionate about that, Like it's not just the physical, it's not just boxing, you know, we write we come together where we move and from this very internal, self reflective space, we give voice to it through sharing. We do that in community, and then we learn the art of boxing, right, And what you're saying is the same. You know, you've got this kind of applied practice in the ring through the physicality of your sports and your boxing and all your other training and your strength based training, and then you come into this other very and it is a creative space because it's communicative and so but it's reflective. It's giving voice to the hidden narratives. It's beginning to find a language for how you think, feel, see the world and doing that in community, in conversation with others. So very similar.

Yeah, yeah, what are you? How was it received by? How was How was the film received? And was it how you expected it to be received?

Yeah, yeah, what are you? How was it received by? How was How was the film received? And was it how you expected it to be received?

I think it was received so much better than my bad thought.

I think it was received so much better than my bad thought.

You know.

You know.

We walked away with the Audience Award at the Melbourne In National Film Festival and it's incredible, right and voting best Film. It was co one with an Indigenous film documentary actually about the Voice and the referendum, but so joint winners. But you know we left right hook. The film won an audience Award for a film about child sexual abuse, Like what, it's amazing, right, really, and it's a real testament, I think to Melbourne audiences who are ready and can engage with deep work. And I think having we were there for every Q and a after the film, and you know, that was an absolute sort of privilege, and we'd sort of come in at the end and it was me and the director and a few of the participants, and I think audiences seeing the participants on stage and getting them and hearing them talk about their experiences, right, and you saw a completely different person on stage from what you'd seen in the film, because again, it's like we were called in a particular time pretty kind of recovering and messy and complex. And then not to.

We walked away with the Audience Award at the Melbourne In National Film Festival and it's incredible, right and voting best Film. It was co one with an Indigenous film documentary actually about the Voice and the referendum, but so joint winners. But you know we left right hook. The film won an audience Award for a film about child sexual abuse, Like what, it's amazing, right, really, and it's a real testament, I think to Melbourne audiences who are ready and can engage with deep work. And I think having we were there for every Q and a after the film, and you know, that was an absolute sort of privilege, and we'd sort of come in at the end and it was me and the director and a few of the participants, and I think audiences seeing the participants on stage and getting them and hearing them talk about their experiences, right, and you saw a completely different person on stage from what you'd seen in the film, because again, it's like we were called in a particular time pretty kind of recovering and messy and complex. And then not to.

Say that people are like, you know, fully healed and like, you know, like things are still kind of tough right for many of us, but they had a better sense of self from having done the program and having engaged in the creative and the physical process of writing, boxing and also documentary filmmaking.

Say that people are like, you know, fully healed and like, you know, like things are still kind of tough right for many of us, but they had a better sense of self from having done the program and having engaged in the creative and the physical process of writing, boxing and also documentary filmmaking.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember as I was sitting and watching it, and I kept in my mind watching and taking in these characters and these people and then taking myself to thinking about They're also just a bunch of people that are moving through life that you pass in the street, that are that are serving you in businesses, that are that are you know, you're having small talk with at events. And it's got I mean, is it one in three.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember as I was sitting and watching it, and I kept in my mind watching and taking in these characters and these people and then taking myself to thinking about They're also just a bunch of people that are moving through life that you pass in the street, that are that are serving you in businesses, that are that are you know, you're having small talk with at events. And it's got I mean, is it one in three.

One in three women and one in five boys have been sexually used, And so absolutely it's prevalent, and it you know, of course you're going to have various functionality that exist within victims, survivors and in the group. You know, we've got a range of high functioning to medium to low right, and that's very common. So but yes, absolutely the year work with them, you talk to them, you get served by them, and it doesn't mean it's a life sentence. I feel really passionate about that, right Like I was, you know, I've been someone that you know, yes, I had had quite complex mental health problems. I wouldn't I sort of don't really like to say that I'm mentally I've got mental health what was like a mentally ill I don't like to say that because I'm kind of like, well, I have mental health problems as a result of being sexually abused as a kid. The research says that I will have mental health problems. I'm not mentally ill because I was born that way. Actually it was done to me and all the root issues are linked to that, and you know, it kind of irks me. And I can understand people's need to sometimes find helpful umbrella terms in which to exists, in which to find support mechanisms and everything like that, but for me, it hasn't been a particularly helpful term. Yeah. Sorry, anyway, I forgot what we were talking about.

One in three women and one in five boys have been sexually used, And so absolutely it's prevalent, and it you know, of course you're going to have various functionality that exist within victims, survivors and in the group. You know, we've got a range of high functioning to medium to low right, and that's very common. So but yes, absolutely the year work with them, you talk to them, you get served by them, and it doesn't mean it's a life sentence. I feel really passionate about that, right Like I was, you know, I've been someone that you know, yes, I had had quite complex mental health problems. I wouldn't I sort of don't really like to say that I'm mentally I've got mental health what was like a mentally ill I don't like to say that because I'm kind of like, well, I have mental health problems as a result of being sexually abused as a kid. The research says that I will have mental health problems. I'm not mentally ill because I was born that way. Actually it was done to me and all the root issues are linked to that, and you know, it kind of irks me. And I can understand people's need to sometimes find helpful umbrella terms in which to exists, in which to find support mechanisms and everything like that, but for me, it hasn't been a particularly helpful term. Yeah. Sorry, anyway, I forgot what we were talking about.

I forgot what we'd ask you. But I was going to say I was talking about labels with somebody yesterday and that idea of labels and how on one side of things, a label can help us understand, connect with the community, have reasoning and meaning behind actions, give us a sense of self awareness and something. But then, if unmanaged correctly, becomes an anchor, becomes a reason, you know, like locks us down and maybe steals becomes our identity, steals it. What do you how do you navigate that idea of Because there's some there's some traits and things, you know, like ADHD. I had an ADHD diagnosis a couple of years ago, and I was like a lot of the things that I that challenge me are also just I go, well, they are just like also I accept them as what I say to be coping mechanisms that correlate with trauma with an experience. I think a lot of labels. So this understanding that I have this this this is wrong with me is really hard pill to swallow. We think about labels.

I forgot what we'd ask you. But I was going to say I was talking about labels with somebody yesterday and that idea of labels and how on one side of things, a label can help us understand, connect with the community, have reasoning and meaning behind actions, give us a sense of self awareness and something. But then, if unmanaged correctly, becomes an anchor, becomes a reason, you know, like locks us down and maybe steals becomes our identity, steals it. What do you how do you navigate that idea of Because there's some there's some traits and things, you know, like ADHD. I had an ADHD diagnosis a couple of years ago, and I was like a lot of the things that I that challenge me are also just I go, well, they are just like also I accept them as what I say to be coping mechanisms that correlate with trauma with an experience. I think a lot of labels. So this understanding that I have this this this is wrong with me is really hard pill to swallow. We think about labels.

I think the same things that you think in that it is multifaceted, and they can be very helpful in order to give us direction, a sense of understanding and obviously you know, correct pathways or evidence based pathways in which to begin to gain a greater clarity and around you know, how to how to move forward with said kind of you know, things that are coming up for oneself. But I agree that we have to be also very conscious that where is our age see within that? And do we want the label to define us or do we want to sort of be in charge of the narratives that can come with that? And I think you know that's what you're saying about the ADHD, And you know I would say that I would want to be in charge of the narrative because I think who's defining the narratives associated with the label. Yes, right, And that's what we need to think about that because for many years it's been a very oppressive way to put people in categories or scenarios that I don't think is very helpful. They're deficit based. You know, there can be great pride if you think of people who live with the disability. There's a great pride narrative that can exist within that. And there's also incredible deficit based narratives that have come from the medical model that have, you know, deeply subjugated people.

I think the same things that you think in that it is multifaceted, and they can be very helpful in order to give us direction, a sense of understanding and obviously you know, correct pathways or evidence based pathways in which to begin to gain a greater clarity and around you know, how to how to move forward with said kind of you know, things that are coming up for oneself. But I agree that we have to be also very conscious that where is our age see within that? And do we want the label to define us or do we want to sort of be in charge of the narratives that can come with that? And I think you know that's what you're saying about the ADHD, And you know I would say that I would want to be in charge of the narrative because I think who's defining the narratives associated with the label. Yes, right, And that's what we need to think about that because for many years it's been a very oppressive way to put people in categories or scenarios that I don't think is very helpful. They're deficit based. You know, there can be great pride if you think of people who live with the disability. There's a great pride narrative that can exist within that. And there's also incredible deficit based narratives that have come from the medical model that have, you know, deeply subjugated people.

I had a long time ago, now doctor Bruce Perry on the show, who wrote What Happened to You? With Oprah Winfrey as opposed to What's Wrong with You? That brilliant book. If you haven't read it, get it. It is amazing. And I and we talk about dissociation and he goes dissociation it's a really bad rap. It's actually it's a superpower.

I had a long time ago, now doctor Bruce Perry on the show, who wrote What Happened to You? With Oprah Winfrey as opposed to What's Wrong with You? That brilliant book. If you haven't read it, get it. It is amazing. And I and we talk about dissociation and he goes dissociation it's a really bad rap. It's actually it's a superpower.

Totally. That's exactly what I think, because I'm just so right and sorry I get passionate about that one, because absolutely I think it's an incredible gift. And the reason I'm so high functioning is because of my dissociation. So I have the bits that I need to be careful of is the dissociation when it blocks me from being able to have meaningful relationships, or it can keep me kind of really fragmented in ways that I feel stressed or really like to overwhelmed because I'm not kind of grounded or connected. So those are the parts that I need to work on to, you know, kind of almost work with the dissociative identity. But I actually see it as a great I'm super thankful for it, and I believe that my ability to function in life is because of my dissociation.

Totally. That's exactly what I think, because I'm just so right and sorry I get passionate about that one, because absolutely I think it's an incredible gift. And the reason I'm so high functioning is because of my dissociation. So I have the bits that I need to be careful of is the dissociation when it blocks me from being able to have meaningful relationships, or it can keep me kind of really fragmented in ways that I feel stressed or really like to overwhelmed because I'm not kind of grounded or connected. So those are the parts that I need to work on to, you know, kind of almost work with the dissociative identity. But I actually see it as a great I'm super thankful for it, and I believe that my ability to function in life is because of my dissociation.

Yeah, I again ages ago with one of my sessions with doctor Bill, who was guest turned therapist for me and I still work with him today, And one day, at the end of our conversation, he goes, hey, I'm going to send you. I'm going to send you this quiz, this questionnaire. Just send me back your score. And it was the dissociation quiz, whatever it is, the questionnaire on that and I got whatever score I got and I can't remember, I can't remember what the scores go to, all the numbers, but let's just out I'm going to pick a number and say I wrote back, and I was like, I only got twenty six or whatever, and he's like.

Yeah, I again ages ago with one of my sessions with doctor Bill, who was guest turned therapist for me and I still work with him today, And one day, at the end of our conversation, he goes, hey, I'm going to send you. I'm going to send you this quiz, this questionnaire. Just send me back your score. And it was the dissociation quiz, whatever it is, the questionnaire on that and I got whatever score I got and I can't remember, I can't remember what the scores go to, all the numbers, but let's just out I'm going to pick a number and say I wrote back, and I was like, I only got twenty six or whatever, and he's like.

That's pretty high.

That's pretty high.

I think I score. And then I did it again because I go, well, the thing is right, Bill, there's like is this like there's these there's these questions that could be like me just being distracted or tired or busy or you know, there's all this. So so I did it again and I'm like, whyon, I got thirteen, and he goes, that's still really high, like the normal the normal is four or something. These Again, I don't know if their numbers are correct to what our conversation was, but I'm just going, oh right. And again he's not into labels. He wrote a book with the same name as doctor Bruce Perry. They released it at about the same time. He's a lot shorter and punchy, awesome sweary language. I love it. Brilliant, brilliant book. But again, he just won't subscribe to labels or putting. You know that. We have those conversations and I loved that. I was like, A, you are right. We don't realize we don't have the awareness to realize that, oh this sensation and behavior and thing that I do is actually something that is it's an automatic function to get me out of a situation that I'm actually not aware is happening. And it's just nice to have an awareness on that.

I think I score. And then I did it again because I go, well, the thing is right, Bill, there's like is this like there's these there's these questions that could be like me just being distracted or tired or busy or you know, there's all this. So so I did it again and I'm like, whyon, I got thirteen, and he goes, that's still really high, like the normal the normal is four or something. These Again, I don't know if their numbers are correct to what our conversation was, but I'm just going, oh right. And again he's not into labels. He wrote a book with the same name as doctor Bruce Perry. They released it at about the same time. He's a lot shorter and punchy, awesome sweary language. I love it. Brilliant, brilliant book. But again, he just won't subscribe to labels or putting. You know that. We have those conversations and I loved that. I was like, A, you are right. We don't realize we don't have the awareness to realize that, oh this sensation and behavior and thing that I do is actually something that is it's an automatic function to get me out of a situation that I'm actually not aware is happening. And it's just nice to have an awareness on that.

Now one hundred percent. You know, I think that's the worst is like you are unconsciously driven by behaviors and actions and sensations and kind of feelings like when you don't have a conscious awareness of that, And that's that is like my problem, right, is that I'm often unconsciously acting out in not necessarily always bad, but just in life. And then it's like I fall into deep pain holes and until and that's the bit that gets me the conscious awareness to go, oh, right, that's related to the trauma. Right, that's really annoying. I think I want to stop because I'm tired of unconsciously acting out shit in order to get conscious awareness. It's like, but I guess that's the kind of tension point and that's a bit I have to work on with my therapist, thank you very.

Now one hundred percent. You know, I think that's the worst is like you are unconsciously driven by behaviors and actions and sensations and kind of feelings like when you don't have a conscious awareness of that, And that's that is like my problem, right, is that I'm often unconsciously acting out in not necessarily always bad, but just in life. And then it's like I fall into deep pain holes and until and that's the bit that gets me the conscious awareness to go, oh, right, that's related to the trauma. Right, that's really annoying. I think I want to stop because I'm tired of unconsciously acting out shit in order to get conscious awareness. It's like, but I guess that's the kind of tension point and that's a bit I have to work on with my therapist, thank you very.

Much, but totally totally what Oh, I know, I'm like, well, how I'm like, come on, doc, shit, how do you manage that? Yeah?

Much, but totally totally what Oh, I know, I'm like, well, how I'm like, come on, doc, shit, how do you manage that? Yeah?

I don't know. It's part time, isn't it. Like maybe when we're ready to process things come on, when am I going to be ready? You know?

I don't know. It's part time, isn't it. Like maybe when we're ready to process things come on, when am I going to be ready? You know?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Ready? I have to be How much more pain do I have to get myself into to be ready?

Ready? I have to be How much more pain do I have to get myself into to be ready?

Yeah? Yeah, And it's very much the relationship you have with the understanding of it. I looked at when COVID happened, We're going to lockdown. I'm like, oh, oh what I have. One thing I do know is I'm fucking superstar in crisis and the superstar in crisis. So the fact that oh, you started this podcast and it's gone crazy and everyone's listening and you got sponsors and oh look at you go, I'm like, Okay, when's this kind of Is it going to last three months? It's in the last four months. This is going to crash because this is this is what I do. I'm really good when the world's falling down, When the world goes back to normal, Am I going to fall down again? I watched that for so long and I even still now I go, am I like, have I dealt with the more recent layers of trauma that still relate to and take me back to those early ones? And I still question that. I go, I'm not sure, because some things have some things I'm a lot more functional with some things have gotten harder, some things I feel like I've moved further from as a result of newer stuff. And I find that really difficult to because you can't have always had perspective of what you're currently in the middle of, because you're in sometimes whatever level of dissociation and storytelling, storytelling, but you're.

Yeah? Yeah, And it's very much the relationship you have with the understanding of it. I looked at when COVID happened, We're going to lockdown. I'm like, oh, oh what I have. One thing I do know is I'm fucking superstar in crisis and the superstar in crisis. So the fact that oh, you started this podcast and it's gone crazy and everyone's listening and you got sponsors and oh look at you go, I'm like, Okay, when's this kind of Is it going to last three months? It's in the last four months. This is going to crash because this is this is what I do. I'm really good when the world's falling down, When the world goes back to normal, Am I going to fall down again? I watched that for so long and I even still now I go, am I like, have I dealt with the more recent layers of trauma that still relate to and take me back to those early ones? And I still question that. I go, I'm not sure, because some things have some things I'm a lot more functional with some things have gotten harder, some things I feel like I've moved further from as a result of newer stuff. And I find that really difficult to because you can't have always had perspective of what you're currently in the middle of, because you're in sometimes whatever level of dissociation and storytelling, storytelling, but you're.

Still here, right even in those moments of like, what are we two years out of COVID, You're in you know, we're in stability mode. We're probably second year of being able to be in stability mode from COVID I'm talking about, and you're still hear you haven't given up. And so I think that does say something. And I think also too that like any creative endeavor and pursued, and you know, we had that with the film, right, Like we started out with filming an eight week workshop, right, that's all what was going to be, I think OVID here, So we had to pivot online blah blah blah. Right, and so all of a sudden, that eight weeks went into two years of filming that went into kind of really a four year filmmaking journey with the participants, And yeah, I guess you know, things even flow. The creative process is constantly dynamic, and then you go, well, yeah, I'm tired of doing this particular project. I'm ready to do something new. I want to creatively, you know, be invigorated in something else. And I think there's something really special that we should honor about that, rather than seeing that as a point in our life that arives because we're stable. It's like, well, maybe I am a person that is ready for the next challenge, and I'm going to embrace that, you know, rather than being a stagnant kind of personality.

Still here, right even in those moments of like, what are we two years out of COVID, You're in you know, we're in stability mode. We're probably second year of being able to be in stability mode from COVID I'm talking about, and you're still hear you haven't given up. And so I think that does say something. And I think also too that like any creative endeavor and pursued, and you know, we had that with the film, right, Like we started out with filming an eight week workshop, right, that's all what was going to be, I think OVID here, So we had to pivot online blah blah blah. Right, and so all of a sudden, that eight weeks went into two years of filming that went into kind of really a four year filmmaking journey with the participants, And yeah, I guess you know, things even flow. The creative process is constantly dynamic, and then you go, well, yeah, I'm tired of doing this particular project. I'm ready to do something new. I want to creatively, you know, be invigorated in something else. And I think there's something really special that we should honor about that, rather than seeing that as a point in our life that arives because we're stable. It's like, well, maybe I am a person that is ready for the next challenge, and I'm going to embrace that, you know, rather than being a stagnant kind of personality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Although apparently slots live like the longest lives or something like that. You know, look outs they.

Although apparently slots live like the longest lives or something like that. You know, look outs they.

Are they live a long time too, aren't they. Yeah, I want to be a sloth or they're very cute.

Are they live a long time too, aren't they. Yeah, I want to be a sloth or they're very cute.

They really are.

They really are.

What what now? Like, what's the what's the immediate and maybe future? Look like it. It potentially holds for Left Right Hook, Yeah, for the book, for the program.

What what now? Like, what's the what's the immediate and maybe future? Look like it. It potentially holds for Left Right Hook, Yeah, for the book, for the program.

Yes, so the film. When we started a chopper in the film, we took it out to philanthropy to raise a bit of money because it's you know, documentary films that featured social issues will usually have a philanthropic kind of portion to its financing model and philanthropy were like, wow, it's amazing, you know, based on the trailer, but what are you going to do When the documentary comes out, people are going to really want to do that Left Right Hook program. And so I was like, oh great, I'm going to set up a Left Right Hook program. And through kind of research and meetings, I basically founded a charity and so we're a survivor led charity. Our flagship program is writing and boxing in a peer support environment, right, And so that's what we're doing and that's really my life now for probably the next I would say five to ten years, where I want to grow this charity. I want to grow program so we can plant them around Australia. We're working with the University of Melbourne to conduct research, so we're doing randomized control trials, so we're comparing boxing only with writing and boxing through the Left Right Hook program, so hopefully and what that will do is it will build evidence over the next two years and that type of evidence allows you to then go internationally to license the program.

Yes, so the film. When we started a chopper in the film, we took it out to philanthropy to raise a bit of money because it's you know, documentary films that featured social issues will usually have a philanthropic kind of portion to its financing model and philanthropy were like, wow, it's amazing, you know, based on the trailer, but what are you going to do When the documentary comes out, people are going to really want to do that Left Right Hook program. And so I was like, oh great, I'm going to set up a Left Right Hook program. And through kind of research and meetings, I basically founded a charity and so we're a survivor led charity. Our flagship program is writing and boxing in a peer support environment, right, And so that's what we're doing and that's really my life now for probably the next I would say five to ten years, where I want to grow this charity. I want to grow program so we can plant them around Australia. We're working with the University of Melbourne to conduct research, so we're doing randomized control trials, so we're comparing boxing only with writing and boxing through the Left Right Hook program, so hopefully and what that will do is it will build evidence over the next two years and that type of evidence allows you to then go internationally to license the program.

Right.

Right.

So you know, I've got big dreams and you know, really it's just a kind of funding capacity, you know, can I do it at peace, but you know, certainly building towards that, and with the film, we go into cinemas in October at the end of October, and then a film like Left Right Hook will basically now be like for the next eighteen months, you know, I'll be traveling around with the film because it's got this kind of endless shelf life for at least, you know, at least a two year's shelf life where people want to do things like community screenings or sector screenings, et cetera. So I feel like I'm just going to be super duper busy and hopefully you know, still deeply engaged with the work, which I think I will be, because it kind of it's creative, it's physical, it's community, it's a sense of me, you know, storytelling, it's a sense of me beginning to reauthor my life. So I feel like I'm growing alongside the charity the film, and you know, is a privilege and I do love it.

So you know, I've got big dreams and you know, really it's just a kind of funding capacity, you know, can I do it at peace, but you know, certainly building towards that, and with the film, we go into cinemas in October at the end of October, and then a film like Left Right Hook will basically now be like for the next eighteen months, you know, I'll be traveling around with the film because it's got this kind of endless shelf life for at least, you know, at least a two year's shelf life where people want to do things like community screenings or sector screenings, et cetera. So I feel like I'm just going to be super duper busy and hopefully you know, still deeply engaged with the work, which I think I will be, because it kind of it's creative, it's physical, it's community, it's a sense of me, you know, storytelling, it's a sense of me beginning to reauthor my life. So I feel like I'm growing alongside the charity the film, and you know, is a privilege and I do love it.

I love that.

I love that.

Peeps.

Peeps.

How do people how how do people get involved? How do people get involved in creating a screening or helping with funding or becoming accredited or with the research, Like what people that are listening that are like, I want to I want to see this get leg and I want to be a part of it.

How do people how how do people get involved? How do people get involved in creating a screening or helping with funding or becoming accredited or with the research, Like what people that are listening that are like, I want to I want to see this get leg and I want to be a part of it.

That would be awesome because we definitely need support, lots of funding support, I'll be honest, but you know, at the moment, just jump onto left right hook dot film and it's w ri E so right so left right hook dot film. All the charity is left right hook dot org. And they both kind of speak to each other, so if you get landed on one, you can kind of find the other and just sign up to the mailing list, sign up to the various bits and pieces that allow you to kind of, you know, say you want a host of screening or help out in some way. And we just love to hear from people.

That would be awesome because we definitely need support, lots of funding support, I'll be honest, but you know, at the moment, just jump onto left right hook dot film and it's w ri E so right so left right hook dot film. All the charity is left right hook dot org. And they both kind of speak to each other, so if you get landed on one, you can kind of find the other and just sign up to the mailing list, sign up to the various bits and pieces that allow you to kind of, you know, say you want a host of screening or help out in some way. And we just love to hear from people.

It's amazing everyone who has not listened to Donna's former episode. That was episode two hundred and twenty, So that's a time ago. What are you up to eight hundred and no way three dropped today?

It's amazing everyone who has not listened to Donna's former episode. That was episode two hundred and twenty, So that's a time ago. What are you up to eight hundred and no way three dropped today?

Yeah, Oh my goodness, I spent a long time between drinks.

Yeah, Oh my goodness, I spent a long time between drinks.

Don't do things by halves over here, Donna myself for you, you're definitely flying high and.

Don't do things by halves over here, Donna myself for you, you're definitely flying high and.

Bloody podcasts under my belt.

Bloody podcasts under my belt.

I'm so proud. I'm so proud to see what you've done. And I've felt even though we just connected and had a conversation and a couple of coffee once, and I really felt like it, the whole thing held a really special place in my heart. I almost felt like part of it just just I don't know why, but it's made me really really happy and proud to see the film come out like this. I really hope that people get behind it. I know the power of boxing, and I want to see people be able to access it with powerful women behind it, with understanding to what I said for years, everyone that steps into a boxing ring has has a story as to why, whether they know it yet or not. I didn't. I found my solution before I realized I had a problem, and it helped bring that up out of my body and into my mind and into my world. And I just think it's so powerful.

I'm so proud. I'm so proud to see what you've done. And I've felt even though we just connected and had a conversation and a couple of coffee once, and I really felt like it, the whole thing held a really special place in my heart. I almost felt like part of it just just I don't know why, but it's made me really really happy and proud to see the film come out like this. I really hope that people get behind it. I know the power of boxing, and I want to see people be able to access it with powerful women behind it, with understanding to what I said for years, everyone that steps into a boxing ring has has a story as to why, whether they know it yet or not. I didn't. I found my solution before I realized I had a problem, and it helped bring that up out of my body and into my mind and into my world. And I just think it's so powerful.

So thank you, oh, thanks yeah for being a fellow traveler and I love it, appreciate it.

So thank you, oh, thanks yeah for being a fellow traveler and I love it, appreciate it.

Thanks everyone,

Thanks everyone,