Having a narcissistic parent can be incredibly damaging, destabilizing, and have lifelong effects. In fact, it's one of the dynamics I'm asked about most. What happens when someone you rely on for love, safety, and attachment also invalidates, manipulates, and discards you. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by doctor Lilly Dunn, whose strikingly honest memoir Sins of My Father unravels the mysteries of her delinquent and narcissistic dad. Lily was just six years old when her father abandoned the family and traveled thousands of miles to join the Bugwan Rajniche Sanyasen cult seen in the Netflix series Wild Wild Country. From that moment, he lived the life he wanted without regard for Lily or her family safety, well being, or financial stability. Lily's story reveals the harm caused by an antagonistic father, the effects of yearning for his love, approval and validation, and answers the quintessential question all children of narcissists eventually ask, if I have a bad parent, what does that make me? From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm doctor Rominy, and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Doctor Lily Done, It is such an honor to welcome you to Navigating Narcissism. Since writing your brilliant memoir, you've actually earned your PhD. So I want to acknowledge that because it's a tremendous accomplishment. Congratulations, Thank you so much.

Having a narcissistic parent can be incredibly damaging, destabilizing, and have lifelong effects. In fact, it's one of the dynamics I'm asked about most. What happens when someone you rely on for love, safety, and attachment also invalidates, manipulates, and discards you. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm joined by doctor Lilly Dunn, whose strikingly honest memoir Sins of My Father unravels the mysteries of her delinquent and narcissistic dad. Lily was just six years old when her father abandoned the family and traveled thousands of miles to join the Bugwan Rajniche Sanyasen cult seen in the Netflix series Wild Wild Country. From that moment, he lived the life he wanted without regard for Lily or her family safety, well being, or financial stability. Lily's story reveals the harm caused by an antagonistic father, the effects of yearning for his love, approval and validation, and answers the quintessential question all children of narcissists eventually ask, if I have a bad parent, what does that make me? From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm doctor Rominy, and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Doctor Lily Done, It is such an honor to welcome you to Navigating Narcissism. Since writing your brilliant memoir, you've actually earned your PhD. So I want to acknowledge that because it's a tremendous accomplishment. Congratulations, Thank you so much.

Yeah, I'm still getting used to it, but yeah, thank you.

Yeah, I'm still getting used to it, but yeah, thank you.

Now your book Sins of My Father, They can't put down book for me. It earned rave reviews and it landed alongside Michelle Obama's The Light. We carry on the Guardian's Memoirs of the year, so huge, huge deal, and I want to read to you. One of the guests we had on Navigating Narcissism, doctor Yanya Lalich, said about your book unput Downable, a love story, a horror story, the unmasking of an unfortunately still much beloved guru, a soul searching that can teach us much about how to analyze and escape from a cruel narcissist. It is horrifyingly real and brilliantly written. So to fill in everyone who's listening to our interview, who was that cruel narcissist that you were escaping?

Now your book Sins of My Father, They can't put down book for me. It earned rave reviews and it landed alongside Michelle Obama's The Light. We carry on the Guardian's Memoirs of the year, so huge, huge deal, and I want to read to you. One of the guests we had on Navigating Narcissism, doctor Yanya Lalich, said about your book unput Downable, a love story, a horror story, the unmasking of an unfortunately still much beloved guru, a soul searching that can teach us much about how to analyze and escape from a cruel narcissist. It is horrifyingly real and brilliantly written. So to fill in everyone who's listening to our interview, who was that cruel narcissist that you were escaping?

This is my father. I probably didn't set out to think that he was a cruel narcissist, even perhaps when I started writing the book. I always knew that he had narcissistic tendencies. But he followed me around like a ghost, as these people do, in terms of the way that his behavior, his betrayal of me, had embedded itself into my behavior, my life, and I just couldn't really shake him off. So my father, he was not famous, but he was quite an extraordinary man, and that he was quite adventurous, and he took risks, but he was incredibly self centered, so he followed his own impulses and he lived an extraordinary life.

This is my father. I probably didn't set out to think that he was a cruel narcissist, even perhaps when I started writing the book. I always knew that he had narcissistic tendencies. But he followed me around like a ghost, as these people do, in terms of the way that his behavior, his betrayal of me, had embedded itself into my behavior, my life, and I just couldn't really shake him off. So my father, he was not famous, but he was quite an extraordinary man, and that he was quite adventurous, and he took risks, but he was incredibly self centered, so he followed his own impulses and he lived an extraordinary life.

Tell us a little bit about your dad. He left your family when you were six years old. Can you talk about the circumstances under how he left and how it affected all of you who were left behind.

Tell us a little bit about your dad. He left your family when you were six years old. Can you talk about the circumstances under how he left and how it affected all of you who were left behind.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So.

So.

My dad was born in a sort of small town in the south of England. He was sent to boarding school at a very young age at age seven. Met my mother when he was nineteen, sort of lied his way into their first date, but my mom was not aware of it at the time, so he was already sort of lying in his late teens, and then they fell in love, deeply in love. They got married very quickly. They had two children, me and my brother, and they lived a very charmed life. They were seen from the outsiders, quite a golden couple. They ran their own publishing business. We lived in North London, lovely big house. Then one day my dad woke up and he disappeared. He didn't tell us where he was going, and he didn't tell us when he was going to come back. And I was six, my brother was eight. He had met a woman at a strip club in Soho and she had introduced him to her guru. So he got a one way ticket to India to meet Bagwan Sheri Rajhnish, who later became Osho, who was the notorious Guru, a very controversial guru who was the star of world wide country fame, which brought that onto the international map. It was an increasingly popular cult, which of course they didn't see as a cult at the time. My dad went to India and he was gone for six months and we really thought that he had died. And then when he came back, he told us that he had been reborn, and so the man that we knew before was no longer and that was a huge severance for us and a.

My dad was born in a sort of small town in the south of England. He was sent to boarding school at a very young age at age seven. Met my mother when he was nineteen, sort of lied his way into their first date, but my mom was not aware of it at the time, so he was already sort of lying in his late teens, and then they fell in love, deeply in love. They got married very quickly. They had two children, me and my brother, and they lived a very charmed life. They were seen from the outsiders, quite a golden couple. They ran their own publishing business. We lived in North London, lovely big house. Then one day my dad woke up and he disappeared. He didn't tell us where he was going, and he didn't tell us when he was going to come back. And I was six, my brother was eight. He had met a woman at a strip club in Soho and she had introduced him to her guru. So he got a one way ticket to India to meet Bagwan Sheri Rajhnish, who later became Osho, who was the notorious Guru, a very controversial guru who was the star of world wide country fame, which brought that onto the international map. It was an increasingly popular cult, which of course they didn't see as a cult at the time. My dad went to India and he was gone for six months and we really thought that he had died. And then when he came back, he told us that he had been reborn, and so the man that we knew before was no longer and that was a huge severance for us and a.

Shock when he was gone. Would he attempt to call you to inquire on how you were doing, your mother, you, your sibling?

Shock when he was gone. Would he attempt to call you to inquire on how you were doing, your mother, you, your sibling?

Well, he called once, so my mum received a phone call reverse charges, and of course he had gone and left us with no money. And yes, she did recall a very sort of poignant conversation with him where she said, you know, have you thought about your children? Your children are suffering. They want to see you, and he said that is their responsibility, that if they feel sad, that's their responsibility. It has nothing to do with me. And this was very much the culture of the Sinacin movement. People were drawn to it, and it appealed to people who wanted to give up that sense of responsibility. They wanted to give up their secure family home or what they saw as the tie of nuclear family, of mortgage, of job, of conventional life and absolutely just wash their hands of any kind of responsibility. And coming back and saying that he had been reborn was basically a get out card from being our father.

Well, he called once, so my mum received a phone call reverse charges, and of course he had gone and left us with no money. And yes, she did recall a very sort of poignant conversation with him where she said, you know, have you thought about your children? Your children are suffering. They want to see you, and he said that is their responsibility, that if they feel sad, that's their responsibility. It has nothing to do with me. And this was very much the culture of the Sinacin movement. People were drawn to it, and it appealed to people who wanted to give up that sense of responsibility. They wanted to give up their secure family home or what they saw as the tie of nuclear family, of mortgage, of job, of conventional life and absolutely just wash their hands of any kind of responsibility. And coming back and saying that he had been reborn was basically a get out card from being our father.

Oh is that what it was? He's reborn? I have to tell you when I hear this bugwan raginiche kind of you know, cold stuff. It was a cult of literally codified selfishness. They had taken the construct of absolute selfishness and organized it into a cultic structure. In this way, you have no responsibility and sort of sense the conventional life means you're trapped and imprisoned. And this idea at six years old that your feelings were your responsibility and that he held no responsibility for the pain that he had issued upon a child at a very very exquisite and significant developmental juncture six years old. It's a very very delicate time for any child, and it's it seems like he came back to tell you he was reborn, with absolutely no inquiry on how you were doing, either emotionally or financially.

Oh is that what it was? He's reborn? I have to tell you when I hear this bugwan raginiche kind of you know, cold stuff. It was a cult of literally codified selfishness. They had taken the construct of absolute selfishness and organized it into a cultic structure. In this way, you have no responsibility and sort of sense the conventional life means you're trapped and imprisoned. And this idea at six years old that your feelings were your responsibility and that he held no responsibility for the pain that he had issued upon a child at a very very exquisite and significant developmental juncture six years old. It's a very very delicate time for any child, and it's it seems like he came back to tell you he was reborn, with absolutely no inquiry on how you were doing, either emotionally or financially.

Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean that really was the kind of trail that he left in his way. Really from that moment on, it's extraordinary when I think back to that time, how little he asked about me, you know, how little he knew me actually, because he was so kind of wrapped up in his own stuff and his own complex.

Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean that really was the kind of trail that he left in his way. Really from that moment on, it's extraordinary when I think back to that time, how little he asked about me, you know, how little he knew me actually, because he was so kind of wrapped up in his own stuff and his own complex.

Stuff, Doctor Lily. When he left, did he have a job? Could you explain to us sort of financially, yes, he walked out, but what did he really walk out of in terms of the financial responsibilities he left behind and the burden he had shouldered your mother with.

Stuff, Doctor Lily. When he left, did he have a job? Could you explain to us sort of financially, yes, he walked out, but what did he really walk out of in terms of the financial responsibilities he left behind and the burden he had shouldered your mother with.

Yeah, I mean he was a very good businessman and continue to be a good businessman throughout his whole life. He had a good instinct about business, and he earned a lot of money. But at the time that he left to go to India, he had overstretched himself. He was very extravage so you know, at the first whiff of money, he would be spending more than he was taking in. So they were in trouble at that point financially with the publishing house. So when he left, he left an entire business. He left people waiting for their checks, he left people not getting paid, he left his staff. He also was in debt and we almost lost our house. So my poor mom, she had to take the company through bankruptcy and she was threatened with losing her car and having to give over all her assets. He put us in a lot of danger.

Yeah, I mean he was a very good businessman and continue to be a good businessman throughout his whole life. He had a good instinct about business, and he earned a lot of money. But at the time that he left to go to India, he had overstretched himself. He was very extravage so you know, at the first whiff of money, he would be spending more than he was taking in. So they were in trouble at that point financially with the publishing house. So when he left, he left an entire business. He left people waiting for their checks, he left people not getting paid, he left his staff. He also was in debt and we almost lost our house. So my poor mom, she had to take the company through bankruptcy and she was threatened with losing her car and having to give over all her assets. He put us in a lot of danger.

And he felt entitled to go do what he wanted, no sense of consequence. There was absolutely no even allowance for that. And this cult had allowed a way to even handle that issue of personal responsibility by basically telling people the only thing that matters is how you feel. But what was troubling it was he returns home to your family home in London, six months away in India, and he had a proposal for your mother when he walked in the door with his girlfriend.

And he felt entitled to go do what he wanted, no sense of consequence. There was absolutely no even allowance for that. And this cult had allowed a way to even handle that issue of personal responsibility by basically telling people the only thing that matters is how you feel. But what was troubling it was he returns home to your family home in London, six months away in India, and he had a proposal for your mother when he walked in the door with his girlfriend.

Yeah. So he came back with the same girlfriend that he had met in the peep show in Soo and my mom had never met her, but they came round to the house and they sat together and he proposed to my mother that he moved back into the house and he moved back into the marital bed, and that his girlfriend should move into the basement, and that he would basically pirouette between my mom and this woman. Perhaps this felt justified because he had just come from the Rashnish cult, which you know, people know about it. It was all about free love and free sex and let's all kind of share couples and share our partners and everything's fine. But you know, my mom was not having any of that. She stood up and told him he was bonkers. He was just like, no, that's not going to happen.

Yeah. So he came back with the same girlfriend that he had met in the peep show in Soo and my mom had never met her, but they came round to the house and they sat together and he proposed to my mother that he moved back into the house and he moved back into the marital bed, and that his girlfriend should move into the basement, and that he would basically pirouette between my mom and this woman. Perhaps this felt justified because he had just come from the Rashnish cult, which you know, people know about it. It was all about free love and free sex and let's all kind of share couples and share our partners and everything's fine. But you know, my mom was not having any of that. She stood up and told him he was bonkers. He was just like, no, that's not going to happen.

It's just the entitlement to a point of absurdity, such asks could be made. There was absolutely no filter for this man of how does my behavior affect others, how would it be received, what might someone else be feeling. It was a literal almost absence of empathy.

It's just the entitlement to a point of absurdity, such asks could be made. There was absolutely no filter for this man of how does my behavior affect others, how would it be received, what might someone else be feeling. It was a literal almost absence of empathy.

Yeah, absolutely, And that had been going on for some time before he made his escape from us, with the affairs that he was having. He was emotionally absent from us even before I was born, because he was playing the field, you know, with multiple different people behind my mom's back. So yeah, the lack of empathy and lack of engagement emotionally was pretty chronic.

Yeah, absolutely, And that had been going on for some time before he made his escape from us, with the affairs that he was having. He was emotionally absent from us even before I was born, because he was playing the field, you know, with multiple different people behind my mom's back. So yeah, the lack of empathy and lack of engagement emotionally was pretty chronic.

After he abandons the family and then comes back. What was your relationship like with your father after that?

After he abandons the family and then comes back. What was your relationship like with your father after that?

I mean I was very young, I was very hurt. I was very confused. I loved him enormously. Even talking about it now, I can feel that love despite everything, and I felt really, deeply, deeply hurt. It sort of started this sort of horrible sense of longing in me that I never really had enough of him. And so he moved to a commune in Suffolk in England called Medina, and my brother and I would go and spend our weekends with him, but we never saw him. We basically spent our time sitting on the sofas outside the meditation room, playing Donkey Kong on our consoles, and he'd occasionally come over and give us a pound note or something and say, you know, go often, get yourself some sweets, or find yourself a drink or whatever. And I remember seeing different women with him. So after breaking up with this lady that he had met when he left us for India, he met a very young woman who was at university. She was eighteen, and they got together and got married very quickly. So in a way he sort of repeated that pattern that he had had with my mother, you know, marrying someone for young and very quickly. And she was absolutely beautiful, very stylish, and I adored her. She was like a sister. But in our ages being so close, I found it very difficult because I felt that I had been usurped by her, and his attention was always on her because he was slightly insecure about her. But I think the most damaging thing for me was that I was exposed to his sort of sexual virility or his sexual performance at such a young age, and I was put in this slight sort of place of competition with these women, which I didn't understand. I was exposed to too much sex at Medina. The whole kind of cult was based around sex. I started to sort of understand my dad and he had been behaving like that since before I was born. It was all about sort of sexual conquest and his sexual sort of power. He was much more interested in himself as a sexual being other than a sort of loving beer. That was very damaging for me. And my mum had a friend who was a psychotherapist at the time, and she suggested that because my dad hadn't ever really been a parent to me. I hadn't had the opportunity to grow as a daughter. I was sort of stuck in that place from when he left, you know, which was a place of longing and a place of heartbreak. Actually I was heartbroken. You know. He is so narcissistic and so kind of hard to love in many ways, but he was also incredibly charismatic and actually quite a pathetic man. He was a needy man, and he was weak. So there's this awful kind of conflict in me and the people who love him, where we want to protect him, we want to care for him, we want to be there for him, but also we're being betrayed, we're being hurt. We're dealing with someone who just doesn't have the emotional capacity to care for us. And that's what's so damaging about it.

I mean I was very young, I was very hurt. I was very confused. I loved him enormously. Even talking about it now, I can feel that love despite everything, and I felt really, deeply, deeply hurt. It sort of started this sort of horrible sense of longing in me that I never really had enough of him. And so he moved to a commune in Suffolk in England called Medina, and my brother and I would go and spend our weekends with him, but we never saw him. We basically spent our time sitting on the sofas outside the meditation room, playing Donkey Kong on our consoles, and he'd occasionally come over and give us a pound note or something and say, you know, go often, get yourself some sweets, or find yourself a drink or whatever. And I remember seeing different women with him. So after breaking up with this lady that he had met when he left us for India, he met a very young woman who was at university. She was eighteen, and they got together and got married very quickly. So in a way he sort of repeated that pattern that he had had with my mother, you know, marrying someone for young and very quickly. And she was absolutely beautiful, very stylish, and I adored her. She was like a sister. But in our ages being so close, I found it very difficult because I felt that I had been usurped by her, and his attention was always on her because he was slightly insecure about her. But I think the most damaging thing for me was that I was exposed to his sort of sexual virility or his sexual performance at such a young age, and I was put in this slight sort of place of competition with these women, which I didn't understand. I was exposed to too much sex at Medina. The whole kind of cult was based around sex. I started to sort of understand my dad and he had been behaving like that since before I was born. It was all about sort of sexual conquest and his sexual sort of power. He was much more interested in himself as a sexual being other than a sort of loving beer. That was very damaging for me. And my mum had a friend who was a psychotherapist at the time, and she suggested that because my dad hadn't ever really been a parent to me. I hadn't had the opportunity to grow as a daughter. I was sort of stuck in that place from when he left, you know, which was a place of longing and a place of heartbreak. Actually I was heartbroken. You know. He is so narcissistic and so kind of hard to love in many ways, but he was also incredibly charismatic and actually quite a pathetic man. He was a needy man, and he was weak. So there's this awful kind of conflict in me and the people who love him, where we want to protect him, we want to care for him, we want to be there for him, but also we're being betrayed, we're being hurt. We're dealing with someone who just doesn't have the emotional capacity to care for us. And that's what's so damaging about it.

A can call these relationships trauma bonded relationships, because you do feel a love. He is your father. There had to have been moments there that were meaningful to you, and that hanging in there because of the need for attachment, because of the love and holding on in those terrible moments, of which there were a lot, and then trying to ride them out for these possible good moments creates this very unique kind of connection with another human being that is a signature of almost every narcissistic relationship. You were a child, you didn't even have the intellect to know that this is not okay. Adults get into relationships like this too, and even armed with that intellect say they find it. It's almost physically impossible to think about pulling themselves out of this kind of a loop. With parents, it literally as physically felt like, I can't imagine walking away from this person. I love them, Yeah, And I.

A can call these relationships trauma bonded relationships, because you do feel a love. He is your father. There had to have been moments there that were meaningful to you, and that hanging in there because of the need for attachment, because of the love and holding on in those terrible moments, of which there were a lot, and then trying to ride them out for these possible good moments creates this very unique kind of connection with another human being that is a signature of almost every narcissistic relationship. You were a child, you didn't even have the intellect to know that this is not okay. Adults get into relationships like this too, and even armed with that intellect say they find it. It's almost physically impossible to think about pulling themselves out of this kind of a loop. With parents, it literally as physically felt like, I can't imagine walking away from this person. I love them, Yeah, And I.

Think it's made worse when they are so unavailable. You never ever feel that you fully get them. You can't hold them, you don't even know them, so they're slippery. That makes it even worse because there's always that sense of grasping at something that's just out of reach.

Think it's made worse when they are so unavailable. You never ever feel that you fully get them. You can't hold them, you don't even know them, so they're slippery. That makes it even worse because there's always that sense of grasping at something that's just out of reach.

Correct. And I think at some level, the only person that would really get a glimpse at him, if you would, is somebody he needed for narcissistic supply. His young, beautiful wife would be a great example of that. She was young, she was beautiful. Of course he was going to marry her, and there was always that sense of an insecurity that she could slip away that kind of person would receive his attention and it might be fleeting until the next sexual partner whomever rolled around. Was your mother aware of what the circumstances were like at this Medina place? Who was pushing for you to continue having contact with your father? Was this something that your mother thought was important?

Correct. And I think at some level, the only person that would really get a glimpse at him, if you would, is somebody he needed for narcissistic supply. His young, beautiful wife would be a great example of that. She was young, she was beautiful. Of course he was going to marry her, and there was always that sense of an insecurity that she could slip away that kind of person would receive his attention and it might be fleeting until the next sexual partner whomever rolled around. Was your mother aware of what the circumstances were like at this Medina place? Who was pushing for you to continue having contact with your father? Was this something that your mother thought was important?

This is a good question. I think my mom had a very, very challenging situation on her hands. She came from a very loving family with a very loving father. She was completely in love with my dad, obviously when all this kind of imploded on her, but I think a small part of her was always retained that innocence. That's not making an excuse at all. My mom is an incredibly strong, positive, trusting person. But she was not happy about Medina. She came to Medina once and she cried when she was there. She didn't like it. The dilemma that she had was that we wanted to see our father. I think I particularly needed to see my father. She said that I was like a clockwork toy that when he left, I would start to wind down until I just sort of slowed down and I became very quiet and very introspective and very sad. And then as I was building up to seeing him again, I would build up again she was coming back. I was excited. I wanted to be with him, and then I would go through that process again on leaving. So she knew that it was important for me to develop a relationship with him. The biggest dilemma for her was that she was worried that if she said no, it would build his image into an even greater force. You know, he would be this huge sort of enigma, you know, who she had stopped us from seeing. And I respect her for that, and I think she also felt when we were growing up as adults that actually we needed to experience our father for who he was, and even if that was a painful process, it was better that we came to that rather than feeling that we weren't able to meet him and actually really try and understand him. And I really respect her for that. But it was not easy for her.

This is a good question. I think my mom had a very, very challenging situation on her hands. She came from a very loving family with a very loving father. She was completely in love with my dad, obviously when all this kind of imploded on her, but I think a small part of her was always retained that innocence. That's not making an excuse at all. My mom is an incredibly strong, positive, trusting person. But she was not happy about Medina. She came to Medina once and she cried when she was there. She didn't like it. The dilemma that she had was that we wanted to see our father. I think I particularly needed to see my father. She said that I was like a clockwork toy that when he left, I would start to wind down until I just sort of slowed down and I became very quiet and very introspective and very sad. And then as I was building up to seeing him again, I would build up again she was coming back. I was excited. I wanted to be with him, and then I would go through that process again on leaving. So she knew that it was important for me to develop a relationship with him. The biggest dilemma for her was that she was worried that if she said no, it would build his image into an even greater force. You know, he would be this huge sort of enigma, you know, who she had stopped us from seeing. And I respect her for that, and I think she also felt when we were growing up as adults that actually we needed to experience our father for who he was, and even if that was a painful process, it was better that we came to that rather than feeling that we weren't able to meet him and actually really try and understand him. And I really respect her for that. But it was not easy for her.

I understand that as a mother, as a psychologist, I fully understand where that painful and conflicted drive must have been coming for her. What was I mean, especially in your early year six seven, eight, nine tens, what was so compelling about your father that was drawing you to want to spend so much time with him.

I understand that as a mother, as a psychologist, I fully understand where that painful and conflicted drive must have been coming for her. What was I mean, especially in your early year six seven, eight, nine tens, what was so compelling about your father that was drawing you to want to spend so much time with him.

I loved him. He was very affectionate, he was very funny. When I look back on my memories of before he left, he kind of comes across as the archetypal dad come home from trips abroad, and he'd bring us all these special suites and toys from America and Christmas. He would pretend to be Father Christmas, and he'd put talconpowder on the bottom of his shoes, and there'd be a trail of sort of fake snow coming through from the attic door, and we'd have all these amazing stuff in our stockings. He was funny, he was entertaining, he was really affectionate. He had lovely big hands, and he was warm, and he was cuddly and was my dad.

I loved him. He was very affectionate, he was very funny. When I look back on my memories of before he left, he kind of comes across as the archetypal dad come home from trips abroad, and he'd bring us all these special suites and toys from America and Christmas. He would pretend to be Father Christmas, and he'd put talconpowder on the bottom of his shoes, and there'd be a trail of sort of fake snow coming through from the attic door, and we'd have all these amazing stuff in our stockings. He was funny, he was entertaining, he was really affectionate. He had lovely big hands, and he was warm, and he was cuddly and was my dad.

Thank you for showing that, because what you describe here is the father who would bring the gifts from his travels, and there were the sort of playful holiday memories, and he was entertaining and affectionate. And then you'd go for these weekends and time in Medina or other places he was living, and you couldn't get access to what you knew was going to be fun and loving. It's very very frustrating if you were always on the edge of your seat because you knew once you could get him, you would have a very pleasant circumstance, and then they'd sort of be these big periods of time waiting for him to come around. So to me, that's the paradox of any narcissistic relationship.

Thank you for showing that, because what you describe here is the father who would bring the gifts from his travels, and there were the sort of playful holiday memories, and he was entertaining and affectionate. And then you'd go for these weekends and time in Medina or other places he was living, and you couldn't get access to what you knew was going to be fun and loving. It's very very frustrating if you were always on the edge of your seat because you knew once you could get him, you would have a very pleasant circumstance, and then they'd sort of be these big periods of time waiting for him to come around. So to me, that's the paradox of any narcissistic relationship.

It's interesting you saying it in those terms because I've not really thought of it like that before. But I think you're absolutely right. I think it's almost like a drug, isn't it. It's like that first hit. You know, you're searching for that first hit. You're searching for that sort of ultimate moment of connection, and you know when he moves to Italy, I would sort of go in search of him and he'd give me a hug and that became my medicine and it would fill me up again, you know, just to have that contact with him. I mean, he was holding all the cards and he had an incredible amount of power because of my need.

It's interesting you saying it in those terms because I've not really thought of it like that before. But I think you're absolutely right. I think it's almost like a drug, isn't it. It's like that first hit. You know, you're searching for that first hit. You're searching for that sort of ultimate moment of connection, and you know when he moves to Italy, I would sort of go in search of him and he'd give me a hug and that became my medicine and it would fill me up again, you know, just to have that contact with him. I mean, he was holding all the cards and he had an incredible amount of power because of my need.

We will be right back with this conversation. Scarcity makes anybody the most interesting person in the room, right. I might even argue a little differently to you, doctor Lilly, that was it a drug? I actually think that that almost undersells what it was to you. I think it was so much more profound than that. It was joy, it was connection, it was safety in the world. It was happiness. I don't think it was just a quick hit. I think what you wanted is what every human being wants most of all from a parent. It was love, and you knew how much love could be there at that moment if you could actually get him to sit down long enough. So you were forever on this chase. But the thing you were chasing wasn't all superficial. It was incredibly deep, and that is a very very confusing place for a child to be sort of stuck. Yeah, I have to say. Something you wrote here is on page one hundred and four of your book. I read it. It's right before I was going to sleep. I closed the book, I turned back on the light. I read it again because it dawned on me that what you had written here in a very short paragraph, captured not only this incredibly powerful dynamic in your relationship with him, it would inform anybody going through one of these relationships. And let me just give some contact you're now talking about when you were spending summers in Italy. He had moved to a house in Tuscany. You paint this gorgeous picture of what Italy was like, the smells, the sensations, the heat, the rain. I mean, it was absolutely beautiful, but against this backdrop still of this very inaccessible father. At this time, your father's married, and you're talking about the complexity of noticing how he was so adoring of his wife, who was only about seven years older than you, and you were left with this yearning. But there's something you right here. And my father did not want or need this kind of enslavement, but he needed my puppy like devotion so he could continue to behave as he wanted, the indulged man accountable to no one. But I was also a nuisance to him, hanging on his sleeve so often, unable to contain my noisy grief, and it reminded him of what he had done. Can you share what that passage meant to you? And I'd love to share with you why it had such a profound impact on me.

We will be right back with this conversation. Scarcity makes anybody the most interesting person in the room, right. I might even argue a little differently to you, doctor Lilly, that was it a drug? I actually think that that almost undersells what it was to you. I think it was so much more profound than that. It was joy, it was connection, it was safety in the world. It was happiness. I don't think it was just a quick hit. I think what you wanted is what every human being wants most of all from a parent. It was love, and you knew how much love could be there at that moment if you could actually get him to sit down long enough. So you were forever on this chase. But the thing you were chasing wasn't all superficial. It was incredibly deep, and that is a very very confusing place for a child to be sort of stuck. Yeah, I have to say. Something you wrote here is on page one hundred and four of your book. I read it. It's right before I was going to sleep. I closed the book, I turned back on the light. I read it again because it dawned on me that what you had written here in a very short paragraph, captured not only this incredibly powerful dynamic in your relationship with him, it would inform anybody going through one of these relationships. And let me just give some contact you're now talking about when you were spending summers in Italy. He had moved to a house in Tuscany. You paint this gorgeous picture of what Italy was like, the smells, the sensations, the heat, the rain. I mean, it was absolutely beautiful, but against this backdrop still of this very inaccessible father. At this time, your father's married, and you're talking about the complexity of noticing how he was so adoring of his wife, who was only about seven years older than you, and you were left with this yearning. But there's something you right here. And my father did not want or need this kind of enslavement, but he needed my puppy like devotion so he could continue to behave as he wanted, the indulged man accountable to no one. But I was also a nuisance to him, hanging on his sleeve so often, unable to contain my noisy grief, and it reminded him of what he had done. Can you share what that passage meant to you? And I'd love to share with you why it had such a profound impact on me.

I remember writing that when he got married to his wife, I went along to the wedding, but I spent the whole time hanging on to my dad, and I wouldn't even let them have any photos of themselves on their own because there was me hanging on to him and crying. And I must have been a real pain in the ass for my dad. Must have been really awful on one side, just to have your daughter a kind of hanging there crying, But also I was reminding him of the pain that he had put me through because I couldn't contain it myself. For years and years, every time I saw him, I would cry, and I did sort of walk around as a slight mirror to him.

I remember writing that when he got married to his wife, I went along to the wedding, but I spent the whole time hanging on to my dad, and I wouldn't even let them have any photos of themselves on their own because there was me hanging on to him and crying. And I must have been a real pain in the ass for my dad. Must have been really awful on one side, just to have your daughter a kind of hanging there crying, But also I was reminding him of the pain that he had put me through because I couldn't contain it myself. For years and years, every time I saw him, I would cry, and I did sort of walk around as a slight mirror to him.

What you said in that last sentence here was the I was a nuisance to him, right, And I don't know that a child should ever conceptualize themselves as a nuisance. But I was a nuisance to him, hanging on his sleeve so often, unable to contain my grief, and it reminded him of what he had done. That's the piece. It had reminded him of what he had done. That jumped out at me, doctor Lilly, because I think that line is all about the narcissistic shame, which is the core dynamic, especially in a narcissistic parent, that the presence of the child in perpetuity evokes that shame right, which is the manifestation of that ego getting injured in that narcissistic parent, and sh is the most uncomfortable space the narcissistic person can live. And so what do they do? They try to eradicate that source of shame. Parents do that in different ways. Some people rage at their child, some people ignore their child. And in this way, you simply trying to get your attachment needs met was evoking shame in him. That was a toxic dance that you were never going to get right. And I think when I read that part of the book, I was so devastated for the girl and the young woman that you were becoming at that point, because you captured what you were. You were literally a stimulus for this man's shame.

What you said in that last sentence here was the I was a nuisance to him, right, And I don't know that a child should ever conceptualize themselves as a nuisance. But I was a nuisance to him, hanging on his sleeve so often, unable to contain my grief, and it reminded him of what he had done. That's the piece. It had reminded him of what he had done. That jumped out at me, doctor Lilly, because I think that line is all about the narcissistic shame, which is the core dynamic, especially in a narcissistic parent, that the presence of the child in perpetuity evokes that shame right, which is the manifestation of that ego getting injured in that narcissistic parent, and sh is the most uncomfortable space the narcissistic person can live. And so what do they do? They try to eradicate that source of shame. Parents do that in different ways. Some people rage at their child, some people ignore their child. And in this way, you simply trying to get your attachment needs met was evoking shame in him. That was a toxic dance that you were never going to get right. And I think when I read that part of the book, I was so devastated for the girl and the young woman that you were becoming at that point, because you captured what you were. You were literally a stimulus for this man's shame.

It's interesting that you pick up that extract because there is that thing that he says to me in Italy. He is high on ecstasy and I've fallen off my motorbike and I'd hurt my leg and I couldn't sleep. And he turned to his wife and said, Lily is the only person who knows me. And I took this on board as truth. You know that I was the only person who knew him, and that that made me special, And I carried that with me. But it's interesting that you pick up on that passage because in a way he was right, because actually I was reminding him of his shame. I was that truth. I was the walking, talking, crying product of his betrayal. So in a way I did know him as much as he was able to allow anybody to know him. But he also used that statement to me that night as a manipulation. He used it to make me think that I was special in order to keep me hanging on. So you know, it's a double edged sword, isn't it. It's a double bind. It's not a simple, straightforward kind of relationship in any way.

It's interesting that you pick up that extract because there is that thing that he says to me in Italy. He is high on ecstasy and I've fallen off my motorbike and I'd hurt my leg and I couldn't sleep. And he turned to his wife and said, Lily is the only person who knows me. And I took this on board as truth. You know that I was the only person who knew him, and that that made me special, And I carried that with me. But it's interesting that you pick up on that passage because in a way he was right, because actually I was reminding him of his shame. I was that truth. I was the walking, talking, crying product of his betrayal. So in a way I did know him as much as he was able to allow anybody to know him. But he also used that statement to me that night as a manipulation. He used it to make me think that I was special in order to keep me hanging on. So you know, it's a double edged sword, isn't it. It's a double bind. It's not a simple, straightforward kind of relationship in any way.

But it was also an acknowledgment that you were dangerous because you actually did see him, you paid an enough attention to see him. You had not sort of knitted that together. And I guess that goes to my next question, when did you connect the dart in your life and your relationship with your father that his behavior was a manifestation of narcissism.

But it was also an acknowledgment that you were dangerous because you actually did see him, you paid an enough attention to see him. You had not sort of knitted that together. And I guess that goes to my next question, when did you connect the dart in your life and your relationship with your father that his behavior was a manifestation of narcissism.

I started to realize that something wasn't quite right with him. I mean, you know, obviously I knew that there was quite a lot that wasn't right with him, but I started to kind of think, maybe this is sort of slightly more sociopathic. When there were a couple of times when I confronted him and he would turn on me and he would be really cruel. He would either tell me that he never wanted to see me again or say something really nasty. I'd see a side of him that I'd never seen before, and I realized he did not want to be crossed, he did not want to be challenged, and that that was incredibly wounding for him, to the point that he would be irrational to tell your daughter that they never want to see you again. You're the adult here, and you're telling me when I'm nineteen and I'm asking you to take some responsibility for what you've done to me, that you never want to see me again. I was just like, what, that is not right. I think at that point I started to recognize actually that his behavior was not okay, and it was not normal and you know, slightly frightening. But I think that the real dawning came really when I started to write this book and do my research and even looking at the myth of Narcissus. I thought was fascinating because it just felt like, Oh my god, that's my dad.

I started to realize that something wasn't quite right with him. I mean, you know, obviously I knew that there was quite a lot that wasn't right with him, but I started to kind of think, maybe this is sort of slightly more sociopathic. When there were a couple of times when I confronted him and he would turn on me and he would be really cruel. He would either tell me that he never wanted to see me again or say something really nasty. I'd see a side of him that I'd never seen before, and I realized he did not want to be crossed, he did not want to be challenged, and that that was incredibly wounding for him, to the point that he would be irrational to tell your daughter that they never want to see you again. You're the adult here, and you're telling me when I'm nineteen and I'm asking you to take some responsibility for what you've done to me, that you never want to see me again. I was just like, what, that is not right. I think at that point I started to recognize actually that his behavior was not okay, and it was not normal and you know, slightly frightening. But I think that the real dawning came really when I started to write this book and do my research and even looking at the myth of Narcissus. I thought was fascinating because it just felt like, Oh my god, that's my dad.

So interesting you bring up the myth of narcissus. For how long we've been doing this podcast, I don't know that we've ever fully talked about it. The myth of narcissus is an interesting one because it's been written and rewritten by different poets in different myths. What part of the myth of narcissus explained your father?

So interesting you bring up the myth of narcissus. For how long we've been doing this podcast, I don't know that we've ever fully talked about it. The myth of narcissus is an interesting one because it's been written and rewritten by different poets in different myths. What part of the myth of narcissus explained your father?

It was the need for someone to reflect or something to reflect your beauty, and that that's only skin deep. To kind of go beyond the surface is dangerous for that person. I think also that I was very struck by echo and that relationship and questioned what my part of this dynamic was. Clearly, people who are narcissistic need to have that adoration, They need to have the echo, They need to have the person who is going to keep bolstering them, you know, and keep making them feel that they are this beautiful soul, that they don't need to go beyond. They don't need to face the truth, they don't need to see themselves for who they really are.

It was the need for someone to reflect or something to reflect your beauty, and that that's only skin deep. To kind of go beyond the surface is dangerous for that person. I think also that I was very struck by echo and that relationship and questioned what my part of this dynamic was. Clearly, people who are narcissistic need to have that adoration, They need to have the echo, They need to have the person who is going to keep bolstering them, you know, and keep making them feel that they are this beautiful soul, that they don't need to go beyond. They don't need to face the truth, they don't need to see themselves for who they really are.

What is so interesting about the myth of Narcissus is that everyone in that myth was being punished, both Echo and Narcissus. Narcissus's fate, his punishment was that he could not love another right, and it wasn't even love. It was about admiration, reflection of the physical image, and ultimately, in the pain of all of that, he ends his life. But Echo was cursed too, and Echo's curse was to only be able to repeat and not say something new. And so Echo, in that way was sort of stuck in a relationship with no identity except sort of repeating and pingponging off of Narcissus. They were both cursed, and I think it's a reminder that not only is the narcissistic person cursed, the people who get drawn into these relationships are as well.

What is so interesting about the myth of Narcissus is that everyone in that myth was being punished, both Echo and Narcissus. Narcissus's fate, his punishment was that he could not love another right, and it wasn't even love. It was about admiration, reflection of the physical image, and ultimately, in the pain of all of that, he ends his life. But Echo was cursed too, and Echo's curse was to only be able to repeat and not say something new. And so Echo, in that way was sort of stuck in a relationship with no identity except sort of repeating and pingponging off of Narcissus. They were both cursed, and I think it's a reminder that not only is the narcissistic person cursed, the people who get drawn into these relationships are as well.

Yes, that absolutely resonates. It is like a poison. And I mean, I didn't want to end up like my father, and at times I was worried that I would, you know, if I didn't face it.

Yes, that absolutely resonates. It is like a poison. And I mean, I didn't want to end up like my father, and at times I was worried that I would, you know, if I didn't face it.

Well, it's the curse of these relationships that we do have, that fear that will will happen. I want to talk a little bit about your father did go into a cultic system? Could you just sort of give us an overview of the Bagwan raj Niche cult. I think it's called the Sonyasen movement.

Well, it's the curse of these relationships that we do have, that fear that will will happen. I want to talk a little bit about your father did go into a cultic system? Could you just sort of give us an overview of the Bagwan raj Niche cult. I think it's called the Sonyasen movement.

Yeah, so on. Shri Rajnish was an intelligent, well educated man in India who started a spiritual movement and had a local following of Indians who came to him when he was a young man. He was quite clever because he combined the Indian spiritualism with Western psychoanalysis and different ways of looking at psychology, and this hadn't really been done before. So this appealed to a generation of young people who were growing up in the sixties and seventies and there was the Summer of Love and you know, sexual liberation and a sense of kind of radicalism in the youth. You know that they wanted to get away from the influence of their parents, which they saw as claustrophobic, and you know that there was a bigger world out there, there was more life, there was international travel, They could learn from other cultures. The Beatles were doing it with their maharishi. So his spiritual movement, it grew and developed and word got round and the Europeans started to join and at that point, you know, it was a utopian place. You know, it was beautiful, and it was warm and loving, and everybody worked for a common good. People were doing therapies and meditation, and it was all about developing the self. A lot of people who came from Catholic upbringing or had been to boarding school or you know where they'd felt restricted and they'd been told what to do. It was letting go of all of that and getting in touch with yourself. And I think it was a good way for lots of people to live in those early stages. But there was also a dark side, which was that Baguan was mischievous and some of the therapies were quite provocative. People who came in as couples were encouraged to split up and try new partners. Some of the therapies in the early days were quite violent. And then it grew Puna and they moved into America, which is when he had a secretary called Sheila who kind of took command. And she found this ranch in Oregon where they basically built a city, and they did all the plumbing and the infrastructure and the electricity, and they built this from scratch. They started to behave in secretive ways and suspicious ways. There was a whole salmonella attack. The FBI got involved, and bug one then got confiscated from America and he got sent back to India.

Yeah, so on. Shri Rajnish was an intelligent, well educated man in India who started a spiritual movement and had a local following of Indians who came to him when he was a young man. He was quite clever because he combined the Indian spiritualism with Western psychoanalysis and different ways of looking at psychology, and this hadn't really been done before. So this appealed to a generation of young people who were growing up in the sixties and seventies and there was the Summer of Love and you know, sexual liberation and a sense of kind of radicalism in the youth. You know that they wanted to get away from the influence of their parents, which they saw as claustrophobic, and you know that there was a bigger world out there, there was more life, there was international travel, They could learn from other cultures. The Beatles were doing it with their maharishi. So his spiritual movement, it grew and developed and word got round and the Europeans started to join and at that point, you know, it was a utopian place. You know, it was beautiful, and it was warm and loving, and everybody worked for a common good. People were doing therapies and meditation, and it was all about developing the self. A lot of people who came from Catholic upbringing or had been to boarding school or you know where they'd felt restricted and they'd been told what to do. It was letting go of all of that and getting in touch with yourself. And I think it was a good way for lots of people to live in those early stages. But there was also a dark side, which was that Baguan was mischievous and some of the therapies were quite provocative. People who came in as couples were encouraged to split up and try new partners. Some of the therapies in the early days were quite violent. And then it grew Puna and they moved into America, which is when he had a secretary called Sheila who kind of took command. And she found this ranch in Oregon where they basically built a city, and they did all the plumbing and the infrastructure and the electricity, and they built this from scratch. They started to behave in secretive ways and suspicious ways. There was a whole salmonella attack. The FBI got involved, and bug one then got confiscated from America and he got sent back to India.

You astutely pointed out in your book this seminella attack was the only bioterror attack that ever occurred on American soil. I had no idea but your dad. I think your dad was somewhat suggestible and impressionable, but really gets into that sort of harmful, tyrannical, self sacrificing, subjugated system. Did your father have that experience within this cult? It seems like he managed to harness the cult in a way that worked for him.

You astutely pointed out in your book this seminella attack was the only bioterror attack that ever occurred on American soil. I had no idea but your dad. I think your dad was somewhat suggestible and impressionable, but really gets into that sort of harmful, tyrannical, self sacrificing, subjugated system. Did your father have that experience within this cult? It seems like he managed to harness the cult in a way that worked for him.

Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. So, no, he wasn't really like the other disciples, and he would not have liked to have aligned himself with the other disciples in that way. He was naturally a leader, and he went in with a kind of business mind, so he would go in and advise people on running their own businesses. People admired him and they looked up to him, and that suited him well. So in a way, he sort of took on a guru persona as a disciple. I think you're absolutely right that he harnessed it to fit in with the way that he wanted to live. So it enabled him to behave in the way that he wanted to behave without having to pay any consequences for that. So my dad didn't really fall for all the therapies. He didn't really meditate, he didn't really take all that that seriously. I think he was in it because he could have multiple lovers. He was revered within that community. They didn't really know him like we knew him.

Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. So, no, he wasn't really like the other disciples, and he would not have liked to have aligned himself with the other disciples in that way. He was naturally a leader, and he went in with a kind of business mind, so he would go in and advise people on running their own businesses. People admired him and they looked up to him, and that suited him well. So in a way, he sort of took on a guru persona as a disciple. I think you're absolutely right that he harnessed it to fit in with the way that he wanted to live. So it enabled him to behave in the way that he wanted to behave without having to pay any consequences for that. So my dad didn't really fall for all the therapies. He didn't really meditate, he didn't really take all that that seriously. I think he was in it because he could have multiple lovers. He was revered within that community. They didn't really know him like we knew him.

I want to give listeners some other context because I think this is a really important piece of your father's puzzle. Here he is in occultic system, feel some power in it. Something that was very compelling about your father's history was that, at a relatively young age, his parents sent him to a boarding school, and that boarding school was a very harsh and cold and cruel and abusive place. His parents seemed to send him there so they would improve his station and maybe even the family's station in life, but it was a horrific experience for him.

I want to give listeners some other context because I think this is a really important piece of your father's puzzle. Here he is in occultic system, feel some power in it. Something that was very compelling about your father's history was that, at a relatively young age, his parents sent him to a boarding school, and that boarding school was a very harsh and cold and cruel and abusive place. His parents seemed to send him there so they would improve his station and maybe even the family's station in life, but it was a horrific experience for him.

My dad was sent to boarding school at the age of seven, and he was very devastated by that from day one. He never really talked about it, but he did tell me about the day that he was left on the step outside the school for the first time, and that he cried and cried out to his mum and dad and they just walked away. They didn't even turn around back to him. And he swore from that day that he would never ever love his parents again. So the betrayal was very, very deep for him. He was a very pretty boy, He was a very dreamy boy. He was a creative boy, and I think it was seen as a victim and he was bullied and abused. He did say that he was raped. They have this whole sort of ritual in boarding schools where they treat certain younger, weaker boys as servants, and my dad had to sort of go through all of that, I think, probably over years, so very undermining experience and very alienating. I imagine it probably felt that he had been evicted from the center of his family. His mother was very adoring of him, She was his golden child. She favored him over his sister, even though his sisters got to stay at home because she was a girl, and he was from that moment almost split, you know, between the person he had to be at school and then the person he had to be at home, and I think it's possibly where he cultivated that sort of persona of lying, of cheating, of not really being fully himself, because that's probably how you have to survive when you're in an unhappy situation like that.

My dad was sent to boarding school at the age of seven, and he was very devastated by that from day one. He never really talked about it, but he did tell me about the day that he was left on the step outside the school for the first time, and that he cried and cried out to his mum and dad and they just walked away. They didn't even turn around back to him. And he swore from that day that he would never ever love his parents again. So the betrayal was very, very deep for him. He was a very pretty boy, He was a very dreamy boy. He was a creative boy, and I think it was seen as a victim and he was bullied and abused. He did say that he was raped. They have this whole sort of ritual in boarding schools where they treat certain younger, weaker boys as servants, and my dad had to sort of go through all of that, I think, probably over years, so very undermining experience and very alienating. I imagine it probably felt that he had been evicted from the center of his family. His mother was very adoring of him, She was his golden child. She favored him over his sister, even though his sisters got to stay at home because she was a girl, and he was from that moment almost split, you know, between the person he had to be at school and then the person he had to be at home, and I think it's possibly where he cultivated that sort of persona of lying, of cheating, of not really being fully himself, because that's probably how you have to survive when you're in an unhappy situation like that.

Can I call you out on an interesting Freudian slip you made because e when you were speaking about his mother, you said she was his golden child, you know, really, as Freud would say, there are no mistakes. The slip was so telling to me because it seemed like your father there was a real adoration between them. He was her golden child, for sure, but I do wonder how much she was what to the degree a parent could be that that idealized figure, and he was being rested away, you know from that space, the disruption and attachment that that creates, and that your father in a way was sort of chasing that attachment that he had lost, and it's very difficult to go back and get obviously, if not impossible, that actual attachment. Your father was horribly abused in that boarding school situation where he had very little power. When we hear about him in this cult, in the bugwont Reginie cult, what we hear is a man who now actually is sauntering through there and taking that power back to me. The boarding school felt like a cultic system where he was abused, and the adult cult was a place where he actually got to hold that power. Yeah.

Can I call you out on an interesting Freudian slip you made because e when you were speaking about his mother, you said she was his golden child, you know, really, as Freud would say, there are no mistakes. The slip was so telling to me because it seemed like your father there was a real adoration between them. He was her golden child, for sure, but I do wonder how much she was what to the degree a parent could be that that idealized figure, and he was being rested away, you know from that space, the disruption and attachment that that creates, and that your father in a way was sort of chasing that attachment that he had lost, and it's very difficult to go back and get obviously, if not impossible, that actual attachment. Your father was horribly abused in that boarding school situation where he had very little power. When we hear about him in this cult, in the bugwont Reginie cult, what we hear is a man who now actually is sauntering through there and taking that power back to me. The boarding school felt like a cultic system where he was abused, and the adult cult was a place where he actually got to hold that power. Yeah.

And also he took the power into his hands by leaving us as well. So he was evicted as a seven year old, and then when my brother was eight and I was six, he left us. He evicted himself in a very similar way. You know, it was very sudden and very it was a severance, It was a trauma, and I think, I mean, what's interesting about the cult is that, on the face of it, how could you compare a free loving, free sex kind of liberal radical cult with a very stuffy British boarding school. But actually what started to happen, particularly in the Oregon days when it did become very cultish, was that it was totally rule bound and it had a very strong hierarchical structure. People had to behave or they were pushed out. You know, everyone wore the same clothes or similar clothes, so it became very institutionalized actually, and I think that was possibly quite familiar to my.

And also he took the power into his hands by leaving us as well. So he was evicted as a seven year old, and then when my brother was eight and I was six, he left us. He evicted himself in a very similar way. You know, it was very sudden and very it was a severance, It was a trauma, and I think, I mean, what's interesting about the cult is that, on the face of it, how could you compare a free loving, free sex kind of liberal radical cult with a very stuffy British boarding school. But actually what started to happen, particularly in the Oregon days when it did become very cultish, was that it was totally rule bound and it had a very strong hierarchical structure. People had to behave or they were pushed out. You know, everyone wore the same clothes or similar clothes, so it became very institutionalized actually, and I think that was possibly quite familiar to my.

Dad, absolutely familiar to him. Also probably One of the biggest questions I get as somebody who's so focused on work on narcissism is why do they bec this way? Why does a person become narcissistic? But I always tell people I answer this with an asterisk, and by that I mean this does not lift responsibility for their behavior, does not obviate that what they did was harmful. None of that is taken away. We know that narcissism is often a byproduct of a disruption and attachment of that kind of loss. So that sort of violent pulling away not only from what felt like a securely attached family system, but then being thrown into a system that abused him, to not be rescued from that system, and then have to keep a foot in the two systems, it steals all of that sense of safety, and it plays on that idea of nothing is safe. And so this fragile ego, then is all kinds of defenses grow up around that, entitlement and grandiosity and validation, seeking anything to find some sense of safety in the world. As your father came up into adolescence and was revealed and made him attractive, he now I'm sure found that's regulating through that through admiration, through validation, and then ultimately through sexual gratification he could get, especially given the Golden child mother, shall we say it, It really speaks to where this comes from. All of that set. We can psychoanalyze this twenty different ways. There was no responsibility taking. I mean, if we were to go back in time and give him proper trauma therapy, there might have been a shot at some normalization. But these are patterns that are really really resistant to change. And so yeah, I absolutely agree that what happened and getting pulled into another system and having a different kind of power within it, especially as it became more rule bound, it was very telling. But interestingly enough too, it also feels like this cult system he was in almost emboldened his existing narcissistic qualities because there was no call for accountability. There is no call for responsibility. So it was a bit of a disaster that him and that cult coming together took away any shred of hope that he would be able to ever step up as a present father.

Dad, absolutely familiar to him. Also probably One of the biggest questions I get as somebody who's so focused on work on narcissism is why do they bec this way? Why does a person become narcissistic? But I always tell people I answer this with an asterisk, and by that I mean this does not lift responsibility for their behavior, does not obviate that what they did was harmful. None of that is taken away. We know that narcissism is often a byproduct of a disruption and attachment of that kind of loss. So that sort of violent pulling away not only from what felt like a securely attached family system, but then being thrown into a system that abused him, to not be rescued from that system, and then have to keep a foot in the two systems, it steals all of that sense of safety, and it plays on that idea of nothing is safe. And so this fragile ego, then is all kinds of defenses grow up around that, entitlement and grandiosity and validation, seeking anything to find some sense of safety in the world. As your father came up into adolescence and was revealed and made him attractive, he now I'm sure found that's regulating through that through admiration, through validation, and then ultimately through sexual gratification he could get, especially given the Golden child mother, shall we say it, It really speaks to where this comes from. All of that set. We can psychoanalyze this twenty different ways. There was no responsibility taking. I mean, if we were to go back in time and give him proper trauma therapy, there might have been a shot at some normalization. But these are patterns that are really really resistant to change. And so yeah, I absolutely agree that what happened and getting pulled into another system and having a different kind of power within it, especially as it became more rule bound, it was very telling. But interestingly enough too, it also feels like this cult system he was in almost emboldened his existing narcissistic qualities because there was no call for accountability. There is no call for responsibility. So it was a bit of a disaster that him and that cult coming together took away any shred of hope that he would be able to ever step up as a present father.

Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's amazing. You've summed it up brilliantly there. It's interesting that he didn't take part in the therapies because he would have to start to untangle some of that stuff, which would have been really frightening for him. And so cherry picked, he took those things that he wanted that were helpful to him. The other thing I wanted to say was that people involved in that cult are made to believe that they are special, that they are different from your run of the mill ordinary person from outside. And of course that is one of the main fueling narcissistic parts of the temperament, isn't it that you know, you, as an artissist, have to feel special, and boarding schools do the same. You know, our country and the UK is run by entitled men who went to boarding school who still don't have to see themselves as ordinary, who were primed to go to Eton and then to Oxford Cambridge and to then rule the country. And they never ever come down to the normal kind of level of the people that they are supposedly protecting. And you know, I'd say that my dad was the same. He would have learnt that sense of entitlement at school and then he continued to have it in the cult. And it's incredibly difficult to break through that because it is this kind of protective armor isn't it.

Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's amazing. You've summed it up brilliantly there. It's interesting that he didn't take part in the therapies because he would have to start to untangle some of that stuff, which would have been really frightening for him. And so cherry picked, he took those things that he wanted that were helpful to him. The other thing I wanted to say was that people involved in that cult are made to believe that they are special, that they are different from your run of the mill ordinary person from outside. And of course that is one of the main fueling narcissistic parts of the temperament, isn't it that you know, you, as an artissist, have to feel special, and boarding schools do the same. You know, our country and the UK is run by entitled men who went to boarding school who still don't have to see themselves as ordinary, who were primed to go to Eton and then to Oxford Cambridge and to then rule the country. And they never ever come down to the normal kind of level of the people that they are supposedly protecting. And you know, I'd say that my dad was the same. He would have learnt that sense of entitlement at school and then he continued to have it in the cult. And it's incredibly difficult to break through that because it is this kind of protective armor isn't it.

I mean absolutely, and it's the new age narcissistic kind of pick a new age thing. It very much does play into that sort of that idea of specialness, of cherry picking what works and really only cherry picking the pieces of various therapeutic models or selected Eastern philosophies that are just being put out there that will allow a person to maintain that sense of specialness of no accountability. I mean, that's really all that does at some point. It's a self destruction that ultimately that destroys other people because, as you pointed out, these people in these boarding school systems, which really seems like a standardized bullying curriculum, then go on to take that mindset into how they run governments and companies and things that do harm to people because they still continue to bring that deeply entitled mindset to all of it. With your father, he also did drink. Was his drinking always an issue?