While promoting her groundbreaking role and HBO's smash hit Westworld, actress Evan rachel Wood revealed a painful truth about her past. She had been raped and physically abused by a former intimate partner while they were together. After years of speculation about the identity of her alleged perpetrator, Evan revealed that it was Brian Warner, famously known as controversial rocker Marilyn Manson. Evan was just eighteen when they began dating, he was thirty seven. Throughout their tumultuous relationship, Evan says she was tortured, threatened, and terrified for her life. She's testified to Congress and played a key role in changing California law. She championed the Phoenix Act, which extends the statute of limitations for domestic violent survivors. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, Evan shared how she escaped her alleged abuser, the actress who encouraged her to open up for the first time, and how she's found healing. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice counseling and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse and suicide, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Evan, I can't thank you enough for coming in and talking with me, as your perspective as a survivor is remard arkable in and of itself, but you also use your platform to change laws, and that is such an important part of your story and for us to learn from your journey of survivorship. To me, that's the focus of the story. So to that end, I want to hear from you, and you can start talking about what's happened to you anywhere you want to begin.

While promoting her groundbreaking role and HBO's smash hit Westworld, actress Evan rachel Wood revealed a painful truth about her past. She had been raped and physically abused by a former intimate partner while they were together. After years of speculation about the identity of her alleged perpetrator, Evan revealed that it was Brian Warner, famously known as controversial rocker Marilyn Manson. Evan was just eighteen when they began dating, he was thirty seven. Throughout their tumultuous relationship, Evan says she was tortured, threatened, and terrified for her life. She's testified to Congress and played a key role in changing California law. She championed the Phoenix Act, which extends the statute of limitations for domestic violent survivors. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, Evan shared how she escaped her alleged abuser, the actress who encouraged her to open up for the first time, and how she's found healing. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice counseling and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse and suicide, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Evan, I can't thank you enough for coming in and talking with me, as your perspective as a survivor is remard arkable in and of itself, but you also use your platform to change laws, and that is such an important part of your story and for us to learn from your journey of survivorship. To me, that's the focus of the story. So to that end, I want to hear from you, and you can start talking about what's happened to you anywhere you want to begin.

I almost want to start after the abuse and my experience with narcissism in the aftermath, because I remember going through a lot of that thinking we don't talk about this enough, we don't talk about how this feels. You know, when you hear those things like why didn't you say anything sooner? Or why didn't you respond this way? Or why didn't you do that? Or why didn't you do this? It just suddenly becomes so clear when you've said in that space, why it just took me so many years to feel like I was capable enough, for strong enough, or clear enough about what had happened to me to be able to face what I knew I was going to be up against. I started speaking about my sexual assault sort of right before the big Internet Me Too hashtag movement happened. And around that time, my nervous system and my stress and the weight of it all became so intense that I started a seizure.

I almost want to start after the abuse and my experience with narcissism in the aftermath, because I remember going through a lot of that thinking we don't talk about this enough, we don't talk about how this feels. You know, when you hear those things like why didn't you say anything sooner? Or why didn't you respond this way? Or why didn't you do that? Or why didn't you do this? It just suddenly becomes so clear when you've said in that space, why it just took me so many years to feel like I was capable enough, for strong enough, or clear enough about what had happened to me to be able to face what I knew I was going to be up against. I started speaking about my sexual assault sort of right before the big Internet Me Too hashtag movement happened. And around that time, my nervous system and my stress and the weight of it all became so intense that I started a seizure.

I started having stress seizures.

I started having stress seizures.

And when I realized just what a physical impact this was having on me, and it was making it nearly impossible to just move about my life normally and comfortably and safely, that was such a breaking point for me. That's when I just knew that I wasn't going to be able to stay quiet. I realized that my silence was keeping me really sick.

And when I realized just what a physical impact this was having on me, and it was making it nearly impossible to just move about my life normally and comfortably and safely, that was such a breaking point for me. That's when I just knew that I wasn't going to be able to stay quiet. I realized that my silence was keeping me really sick.

I always believe that we always should lose names in terms that survivors are comfortable with how do you refer to this person.

I always believe that we always should lose names in terms that survivors are comfortable with how do you refer to this person.

I refer to him as Brian. He is the one that created the name Marilyn Manson, and he was the one that.

I refer to him as Brian. He is the one that created the name Marilyn Manson, and he was the one that.

Told us all to call him Manson.

Told us all to call him Manson.

But to me, that kind of feels like a cult leader asking you to call them pop up or vanguards, like this title that he's giving himself to fit whatever image he has of himself, And I didn't want to give him that power anymore, and so I just use his real name, Brian.

But to me, that kind of feels like a cult leader asking you to call them pop up or vanguards, like this title that he's giving himself to fit whatever image he has of himself, And I didn't want to give him that power anymore, and so I just use his real name, Brian.

Okay, So I want to go back to a couple of things you said. Is that there's a way we think a survivor is supposed to respond when you think of it that way, I think it would be useful for people to hear what a trope that thing is, what was in your mind sort of how one is supposed to respond when they're a survivor of sexual assault or any form of trauma.

Okay, So I want to go back to a couple of things you said. Is that there's a way we think a survivor is supposed to respond when you think of it that way, I think it would be useful for people to hear what a trope that thing is, what was in your mind sort of how one is supposed to respond when they're a survivor of sexual assault or any form of trauma.

There's this idea that something bad happens to you, you know it's bad, you immediately react, and you immediately respond or defend yourself, and it's just cut and dry, black and white.

There's this idea that something bad happens to you, you know it's bad, you immediately react, and you immediately respond or defend yourself, and it's just cut and dry, black and white.

This is good, this is bad.

This is good, this is bad.

And if something feels bad, then you should say something or something.

And if something feels bad, then you should say something or something.

But it just completely erases so much of.

But it just completely erases so much of.

The human experience and of the psychological manipulation and torment that you go through, especially when you're dealing with a narcissism, especially when it's an intimate partner, and there's so many other dynamics coming into play. I was faced with a lot of the narcissistic abuse I suffered. I was a teenager. I was so ill equipped. My brain wasn't even really done for me. It wasn't I was just speaking to somebody the other day and they said, well, surely you know when you're raped and you go to the police, something happens and they come after the person, and I had to stop them and just say.

The human experience and of the psychological manipulation and torment that you go through, especially when you're dealing with a narcissism, especially when it's an intimate partner, and there's so many other dynamics coming into play. I was faced with a lot of the narcissistic abuse I suffered. I was a teenager. I was so ill equipped. My brain wasn't even really done for me. It wasn't I was just speaking to somebody the other day and they said, well, surely you know when you're raped and you go to the police, something happens and they come after the person, and I had to stop them and just say.

Whoa, whoa.

Whoa, whoa.

There's a million other steps, yeah, that come into play here before this happens. But people had this idea that people just come and take the bad guy away if somebody did something bad. And when I say things like the system is corrupt, that means the laws. That means the courts, that means lawyers, that means law enforcement. A lot of times, as a survivor of there's there's no easy way out if a.

There's a million other steps, yeah, that come into play here before this happens. But people had this idea that people just come and take the bad guy away if somebody did something bad. And when I say things like the system is corrupt, that means the laws. That means the courts, that means lawyers, that means law enforcement. A lot of times, as a survivor of there's there's no easy way out if a.

Person doesn't say something evan, especially in proximity to the thing that happened. The belief is, well, maybe it wasn't that bad, because they're not for bad things something right, I would have said something right away, right. So that's a complete disregard of everything we know about trauma systems in the brain and in the body and how healing works. Then you add the historical context that most survivors of rape and sexual assault are not believed, and that not believing gets magnified under a whole host of circumstances. Were you drinking, did you go there voluntarily, the race of the person making the report, the social class of the person making the report, All of those things undercut the likelihood that this will ever be taken seriously, which is a retraumatization which will put a person back even further. And so the entire system is conspired against anybody feeling that they could safely make a report. And so there was a process for you before you were able to come out and speak. And I think people need to understand it wasn't that something terrible happened on a Wednesday, and by the following Wednesday or the day after you spoke up, because when when you first spoke out you did not even name your perpetrator. I simply said this happened, so starting the story there that I finally spoke out. Okay, so then what.

Person doesn't say something evan, especially in proximity to the thing that happened. The belief is, well, maybe it wasn't that bad, because they're not for bad things something right, I would have said something right away, right. So that's a complete disregard of everything we know about trauma systems in the brain and in the body and how healing works. Then you add the historical context that most survivors of rape and sexual assault are not believed, and that not believing gets magnified under a whole host of circumstances. Were you drinking, did you go there voluntarily, the race of the person making the report, the social class of the person making the report, All of those things undercut the likelihood that this will ever be taken seriously, which is a retraumatization which will put a person back even further. And so the entire system is conspired against anybody feeling that they could safely make a report. And so there was a process for you before you were able to come out and speak. And I think people need to understand it wasn't that something terrible happened on a Wednesday, and by the following Wednesday or the day after you spoke up, because when when you first spoke out you did not even name your perpetrator. I simply said this happened, so starting the story there that I finally spoke out. Okay, so then what.

Or just like finally getting out and at first just wanting to the first step was finally made it out. I convinced him that it was his idea to let me go, because that's essentially what I felt like I had to do.

Or just like finally getting out and at first just wanting to the first step was finally made it out. I convinced him that it was his idea to let me go, because that's essentially what I felt like I had to do.

I really had to study.

I really had to study.

Him for years and understand his gaslighting and manipulation, and I just knew that I was never going to get out if I was pulling away.

Him for years and understand his gaslighting and manipulation, and I just knew that I was never going to get out if I was pulling away.

From him, or if it was my choice to escape, I had to.

From him, or if it was my choice to escape, I had to.

Somehow play dead and give him something that was undesirable to make him feel like it was his idea to let me go?

Somehow play dead and give him something that was undesirable to make him feel like it was his idea to let me go?

How did you do that? There was a.

How did you do that? There was a.

Moment when I felt like, I'm so afraid of this person. I've been threatened so many times, either with blackmail or with force, and if I stay here because I'm too scared to leave, I feel like I'm dead anyway. I don't feel like a human, don't I feel like a shell of a person, and staying kind of felt like a death sentence. Leaving also felt terrifying because something could happen to me or he could come after me, and so I kind of felt like, well, either way, I feel dead, so.

Moment when I felt like, I'm so afraid of this person. I've been threatened so many times, either with blackmail or with force, and if I stay here because I'm too scared to leave, I feel like I'm dead anyway. I don't feel like a human, don't I feel like a shell of a person, and staying kind of felt like a death sentence. Leaving also felt terrifying because something could happen to me or he could come after me, and so I kind of felt like, well, either way, I feel dead, so.

I may as well try to escape. I'd rather die trying to get out.

I may as well try to escape. I'd rather die trying to get out.

Then I remember realizing that a lot of what he fed off of was my fear that he was going to do something like that was the power that he had over me.

Then I remember realizing that a lot of what he fed off of was my fear that he was going to do something like that was the power that he had over me.

I could embarrass you.

I could embarrass you.

I've got information on you, I've got photos of you, I've got you doing things that would humiliate you.

I've got information on you, I've got photos of you, I've got you doing things that would humiliate you.

When that finally clicked, I released any.

When that finally clicked, I released any.

Of trying to have any control over the situation and just kind of surrendered to what the situation want to.

Of trying to have any control over the situation and just kind of surrendered to what the situation want to.

Just look, if you stay, you're dead, If you leave, you're dead.

Just look, if you stay, you're dead, If you leave, you're dead.

So I didn't really fight back. I didn't really react or seem hurt. I kind of just went. I think they call it going gray rock.

So I didn't really fight back. I didn't really react or seem hurt. I kind of just went. I think they call it going gray rock.

Okay, So I want to break that down. Yeah, gray rocking is that process where I mean you render yourself to be a gray rock, as dull, as non responsive, as unnoticeable. So when you're not responding either with fear or trying to appease them or trying to get into it with them, or explain yourself. The goal is that they would get disinterested and move on to new supply. Gray Rock's a tricky strategy because in many cases, what it can do is it leaves the narcissistic person unsupplied and they get more agitated, and their power over you is to get these strong, emotional, almost erratic reactions out of the person they're targeting. This is now psychological right, they will get more frothed up. Okay, you think you're going to play this game, I am going to sh share those pictures with the world they did see, which they do. And so what happens is if you can tolerate the menace and you can come around the other side of the bend, they will ultimately get bored because now it's just sort of they're exhausting themselves in the process of trying to break some and they could just move on to new supply. But a lot of people cannot weather that sort of gray rock agitation, as I call it. But in your case, you did gray rock, And how did that get you to the place though where it felt like his idea that this was no longer working.

Okay, So I want to break that down. Yeah, gray rocking is that process where I mean you render yourself to be a gray rock, as dull, as non responsive, as unnoticeable. So when you're not responding either with fear or trying to appease them or trying to get into it with them, or explain yourself. The goal is that they would get disinterested and move on to new supply. Gray Rock's a tricky strategy because in many cases, what it can do is it leaves the narcissistic person unsupplied and they get more agitated, and their power over you is to get these strong, emotional, almost erratic reactions out of the person they're targeting. This is now psychological right, they will get more frothed up. Okay, you think you're going to play this game, I am going to sh share those pictures with the world they did see, which they do. And so what happens is if you can tolerate the menace and you can come around the other side of the bend, they will ultimately get bored because now it's just sort of they're exhausting themselves in the process of trying to break some and they could just move on to new supply. But a lot of people cannot weather that sort of gray rock agitation, as I call it. But in your case, you did gray rock, And how did that get you to the place though where it felt like his idea that this was no longer working.

Well, exactly what you just described, I wasn't trying to defend myself. I wasn't trying to talk them off the ledge. I wasn't doing all the things that I normally did.

Well, exactly what you just described, I wasn't trying to defend myself. I wasn't trying to talk them off the ledge. I wasn't doing all the things that I normally did.

And one thing.

And one thing.

He was doing with me as well is that reactive abuse where he would sort of push me to the point of breakdown, where I'd either be having a panic attack, I'd be shaking, I'd be screaming, I'd want to reach out for help, and then he would tell people something else was happening, like anybody, like in his inner circles. One time he told somebody that I slipped my rest to get his attention, or oh that I cheated on him, or like he just kept telling people all these things had happened that weren't happening to set me up.

He was doing with me as well is that reactive abuse where he would sort of push me to the point of breakdown, where I'd either be having a panic attack, I'd be shaking, I'd be screaming, I'd want to reach out for help, and then he would tell people something else was happening, like anybody, like in his inner circles. One time he told somebody that I slipped my rest to get his attention, or oh that I cheated on him, or like he just kept telling people all these things had happened that weren't happening to set me up.

If I ever did reach out for help, if I ever did try.

If I ever did reach out for help, if I ever did try.

To explain to people what was happening, they've already heard a completely different story, Like he's already gotten ahead of it. Made this mistake with a couple of narcissists in my life before I knew they were narcissists. Of if I could just show this person how much pain I'm in, they'll stop because I'm dying.

To explain to people what was happening, they've already heard a completely different story, Like he's already gotten ahead of it. Made this mistake with a couple of narcissists in my life before I knew they were narcissists. Of if I could just show this person how much pain I'm in, they'll stop because I'm dying.

I'm collapsed on the floor. I'm in a pool of tears. I'm pulling my hair and I'm screaming, I'm cutting myself.

I'm collapsed on the floor. I'm in a pool of tears. I'm pulling my hair and I'm screaming, I'm cutting myself.

I'm clearly in pain, and of course they'll stop, and they never do.

I'm clearly in pain, and of course they'll stop, and they never do.

They use it to their advantage even more.

They use it to their advantage even more.

But when there's no empathy, all the rules are out the window, right. See, that's the piece what you described is I would show them my pain. I would fall to the ground in my pain, in the expectations, not.

But when there's no empathy, all the rules are out the window, right. See, that's the piece what you described is I would show them my pain. I would fall to the ground in my pain, in the expectations, not.

In a performative note, in a genuine joy.

In a performative note, in a genuine joy.

And yes you're devastated. What happens is that when a person goes through any form of narcissistic or psychopathic or antagonistic relationship where there's so much in validation, there's so little empathy, you're not having that fall to the ground panicked distress response the first time. This is after hundreds of times of being exposed to this. Right, it's relentless, and so there's a point at which it's unendurable, and that you think that within this person, I saw it for a minute at the beginning. I know it's there. Maybe they're not seeing how much pain I'm in, and they will see how much pain I'm in. Maybe they're not fully getting it. Maybe they just think this is an exchange. It's really complete and utter exhaustion and breakdown. That's just game on.

And yes you're devastated. What happens is that when a person goes through any form of narcissistic or psychopathic or antagonistic relationship where there's so much in validation, there's so little empathy, you're not having that fall to the ground panicked distress response the first time. This is after hundreds of times of being exposed to this. Right, it's relentless, and so there's a point at which it's unendurable, and that you think that within this person, I saw it for a minute at the beginning. I know it's there. Maybe they're not seeing how much pain I'm in, and they will see how much pain I'm in. Maybe they're not fully getting it. Maybe they just think this is an exchange. It's really complete and utter exhaustion and breakdown. That's just game on.

For them exactly. That's what I learned through trial and error.

For them exactly. That's what I learned through trial and error.

Yes, that Eavan is the norm. I think it's so important you laid this dynamic out because that's every survivor's sort of mantle they wear. Maybe I'm not being clear, and if I was clear, they'd get it, because that's the hope. That's the trauma bond. When you started gray rocking, did you experience the escalation I was talking about? So you did, so you were holding back and then the escalation, yes, And what did that look like?

Yes, that Eavan is the norm. I think it's so important you laid this dynamic out because that's every survivor's sort of mantle they wear. Maybe I'm not being clear, and if I was clear, they'd get it, because that's the hope. That's the trauma bond. When you started gray rocking, did you experience the escalation I was talking about? So you did, so you were holding back and then the escalation, yes, And what did that look like?

So at one point he was threatening to go over to somebody's house that I knew, and I.

So at one point he was threatening to go over to somebody's house that I knew, and I.

Was scared, but I also knew him well enough with that point.

Was scared, but I also knew him well enough with that point.

First of all, he doesn't have a driver's license because he gets everybody to do everything for him. So I was like, well, first of all, you don't drive, you're not going to go anywhere. But I remember him getting dressed saying he was going to go to this person's house, and it was very threatening. He was demanding the address, and I just didn't react I just kept saying, okay, yep, yeah, if that's what you want to do, and they ended up not doing anything and not going anywhere, and that was sort of the first kind of call their bluff yes, saying yes, and then I wouldn't laugh at their jokes, like they were always incredibly inappropriate.

First of all, he doesn't have a driver's license because he gets everybody to do everything for him. So I was like, well, first of all, you don't drive, you're not going to go anywhere. But I remember him getting dressed saying he was going to go to this person's house, and it was very threatening. He was demanding the address, and I just didn't react I just kept saying, okay, yep, yeah, if that's what you want to do, and they ended up not doing anything and not going anywhere, and that was sort of the first kind of call their bluff yes, saying yes, and then I wouldn't laugh at their jokes, like they were always incredibly inappropriate.

And one of the ways they really tested the people.

And one of the ways they really tested the people.

Around them and incriminated them in things was by you know, there was sort of a code of contact for how you needed to act.

Around them and incriminated them in things was by you know, there was sort of a code of contact for how you needed to act.

Rule number one was always just keep him happy and keep things de escalated.

Rule number one was always just keep him happy and keep things de escalated.

And one way to do that was just laughing at the terrible jokes, joining in with things that were highly inappropriate. You feel like, yeah, I'm on your side, I'm trustworthy because I'm joining in with you, and so you're not going to come after me because I'm sort of being just as disgusting. And after a while I was like, I can't do this anymore, and so I stopped and I stopped performing in.

And one way to do that was just laughing at the terrible jokes, joining in with things that were highly inappropriate. You feel like, yeah, I'm on your side, I'm trustworthy because I'm joining in with you, and so you're not going to come after me because I'm sort of being just as disgusting. And after a while I was like, I can't do this anymore, and so I stopped and I stopped performing in.

Front of people, which was a big, a big thing to do.

Front of people, which was a big, a big thing to do.

So like people would come to the house, usually like a famous person or somebody that he needed to do a job.

So like people would come to the house, usually like a famous person or somebody that he needed to do a job.

It was either status or servitude. The only way he would interact.

It was either status or servitude. The only way he would interact.

With people, is if he was getting one of these two things out of the relationship. He didn't just have friends that he hung out with that he connected with that we just enjoy each other this company, there's an exchange here.

With people, is if he was getting one of these two things out of the relationship. He didn't just have friends that he hung out with that he connected with that we just enjoy each other this company, there's an exchange here.

I'm getting something from this.

I'm getting something from this.

And so it was always a big deal when someone came to the house because it was almost like a show. It was like we had to put on a show for these people. And he liked having me around. I think because I brought some status. I could wait on them and bring out drinks and do these things, and it made him seem very powerful. And if you did things wrong, you would hear about it when the people left, So everything would be fine.

And so it was always a big deal when someone came to the house because it was almost like a show. It was like we had to put on a show for these people. And he liked having me around. I think because I brought some status. I could wait on them and bring out drinks and do these things, and it made him seem very powerful. And if you did things wrong, you would hear about it when the people left, So everything would be fine.

When the people were there. You would act like we've got this great relationship.

When the people were there. You would act like we've got this great relationship.

Sometimes he would say demeaning things or do something and literally sometimes it would be so horrible.

Sometimes he would say demeaning things or do something and literally sometimes it would be so horrible.

The guests would think he was kidding, yeah, and they would lean over to me and they would say, he's kidding though, right, And I would just sort of.

The guests would think he was kidding, yeah, and they would lean over to me and they would say, he's kidding though, right, And I would just sort of.

Have to shrug and look at them like no, but I can't say anything because he's right there and I'm going to hear about it later.

Have to shrug and look at them like no, but I can't say anything because he's right there and I'm going to hear about it later.

It's what I call sort of the dinner party paradox of the narcissistic relationship. Right, Oh, this is they're great, like you guys are great?

It's what I call sort of the dinner party paradox of the narcissistic relationship. Right, Oh, this is they're great, like you guys are great?

Have you ever seen anything like that?

Have you ever seen anything like that?

Door closes? And the other place this happens in a pronounced way is in cars. The event is done, you're in the car and the gloves come off and you can't get car right. Like a car is the worst because if this thing's hurtling down the freeway at seventy miles an hour, there's no getting out. That moment is such a signature move in any narcissistic relationship, which means them. As the evening's going on, there is this sense of dread that overwhelmed you and completely clench when you're thinking, did I.

Door closes? And the other place this happens in a pronounced way is in cars. The event is done, you're in the car and the gloves come off and you can't get car right. Like a car is the worst because if this thing's hurtling down the freeway at seventy miles an hour, there's no getting out. That moment is such a signature move in any narcissistic relationship, which means them. As the evening's going on, there is this sense of dread that overwhelmed you and completely clench when you're thinking, did I.

Say that wrong?

Say that wrong?

To night?

To night?

You're walking on eggshells.

You're walking on eggshells.

This is shards of glass, shards glass at this point, egg shells left the room a long time ago. Right, But you know what's coming because there's no way you would have hit every beat perfectly because you can't read someone else's mind.

This is shards of glass, shards glass at this point, egg shells left the room a long time ago. Right, But you know what's coming because there's no way you would have hit every beat perfectly because you can't read someone else's mind.

Now they're looking for something too. I remember one time I got in trouble because I gave the guests water when they arrived, but I gave them to them in plastic bottles instead of glasses, and it turned into like being up all night just getting berated and yelled at about how you either don't care or you're making them look bad, or this is how things need to be when people show up, and here's what needs to change. And just like the constant criticism, the constant it doesn't matter what you do, they are going to find something. It's a game you cannot win, and they're just going to keep moving the goalposts and they're just going to keep up in the anne to keep you destabilized and apologizing and constantly trying to please them so that you're not looking at the horrible things.

Now they're looking for something too. I remember one time I got in trouble because I gave the guests water when they arrived, but I gave them to them in plastic bottles instead of glasses, and it turned into like being up all night just getting berated and yelled at about how you either don't care or you're making them look bad, or this is how things need to be when people show up, and here's what needs to change. And just like the constant criticism, the constant it doesn't matter what you do, they are going to find something. It's a game you cannot win, and they're just going to keep moving the goalposts and they're just going to keep up in the anne to keep you destabilized and apologizing and constantly trying to please them so that you're not looking at the horrible things.

That they're doing. And god forbid you ever try to like call them out or turn it around on them, which I just knew not to do that.

That they're doing. And god forbid you ever try to like call them out or turn it around on them, which I just knew not to do that.

Evan, you're talking about you're translating into gray Rock. How much of it at that point though, was a frank trauma response to what you're doing.

Evan, you're talking about you're translating into gray Rock. How much of it at that point though, was a frank trauma response to what you're doing.

It wasn't even necessarily a conscious thing.

It wasn't even necessarily a conscious thing.

That's what I'm hearing. It's not even the intentionality that gray Rock. And sometimes I didn't know Grayrock was. You didn't know what it was a thing, right, So what you were experiencing was dissociation and numbness. And when you're talking about the most severe levels of narcissistic abuse, that definitely was what your experience was. It is traumatic. You start getting into the territory of complex trauma, of severe relational trauma, and at that point a person is now dissociated, their numb It's like the soul has left the body kind of thing. Actually, in a way, they've annexed you. You're done, Like it's a horrifying sense of disposability as they've emptied out the bottle.

That's what I'm hearing. It's not even the intentionality that gray Rock. And sometimes I didn't know Grayrock was. You didn't know what it was a thing, right, So what you were experiencing was dissociation and numbness. And when you're talking about the most severe levels of narcissistic abuse, that definitely was what your experience was. It is traumatic. You start getting into the territory of complex trauma, of severe relational trauma, and at that point a person is now dissociated, their numb It's like the soul has left the body kind of thing. Actually, in a way, they've annexed you. You're done, Like it's a horrifying sense of disposability as they've emptied out the bottle.

That's exactly how it felt.

That's exactly how it felt.

It just felt like he's kind of pawing at me while I lay on the growling, Oh, I think this one's done.

It just felt like he's kind of pawing at me while I lay on the growling, Oh, I think this one's done.

Yes, Yes, And then I.

Yes, Yes, And then I.

Definitely noticed him getting bored with me, And then I got a partner movie and that's what got me out of the house.

Definitely noticed him getting bored with me, And then I got a partner movie and that's what got me out of the house.

He still tried to call me a few times.

He still tried to call me a few times.

After that, but I got the nerve to hang up on him and change my number. And normally he would just keep calling and keep finding ways around that, but that last time after I changed my number, he seemed to sort of fall back yeah and move on to the next supply, Okay, all right, so, which I'm sure he already had in the chamber.

After that, but I got the nerve to hang up on him and change my number. And normally he would just keep calling and keep finding ways around that, but that last time after I changed my number, he seemed to sort of fall back yeah and move on to the next supply, Okay, all right, so, which I'm sure he already had in the chamber.

You know, they're always there, always is, these relationships. In two thousand and nine, Brian told Spin magazine that the day after he and Evan broke up, he called her one hundred and fifty eight times. He was quoted as saying I have fantasies every day about smashing her skull in with a sledgehammer, a comment his team later characterized as a quote obviously a theatrical rock star interview promoting a new record and not a factual account.

You know, they're always there, always is, these relationships. In two thousand and nine, Brian told Spin magazine that the day after he and Evan broke up, he called her one hundred and fifty eight times. He was quoted as saying I have fantasies every day about smashing her skull in with a sledgehammer, a comment his team later characterized as a quote obviously a theatrical rock star interview promoting a new record and not a factual account.

And it's always the same sort of pattern of you know, the new supply comes in, he lets her know that the supply he currently has is crazy and is really hurting his spirit, and doesn't understand him and is very controlling. And we have to hide our relationship because they're so erratic.

And it's always the same sort of pattern of you know, the new supply comes in, he lets her know that the supply he currently has is crazy and is really hurting his spirit, and doesn't understand him and is very controlling. And we have to hide our relationship because they're so erratic.

Yes, so let's keep doing this in secrecy while I try to get the crazy one out. That was his emo.

Yes, so let's keep doing this in secrecy while I try to get the crazy one out. That was his emo.

I would say that that must be on like page thirty two of the Narcissism Relationship, because it's the now that that person's gone, it is getting ahead of it. If you were to ever speak to this person. Not only have you been painted as though there's something wrong with you, it's an opportunity to sort of elevate the new partner who feels as though, well, I'm going to shave you how saying I am, I'm going to show you how saviory rescue that great? How fortunate are you good that you got rid of.

I would say that that must be on like page thirty two of the Narcissism Relationship, because it's the now that that person's gone, it is getting ahead of it. If you were to ever speak to this person. Not only have you been painted as though there's something wrong with you, it's an opportunity to sort of elevate the new partner who feels as though, well, I'm going to shave you how saying I am, I'm going to show you how saviory rescue that great? How fortunate are you good that you got rid of.

I'm going to be so much better than that person. I understand you way more.

I'm going to be so much better than that person. I understand you way more.

Yeah, you said something before though that did jump out to manage. The language you use was fascinating. You said you would get in trouble if you did something wrong, you know, bring the water in the wrong cup. First of all, in no healthy human relationship, child or adult, should anyone ever feel that they were going to get in trouble. A child shouldn't feel that they're going to get in trouble. They might feel like, I know, Mom told me not to do this. A consequence or something get in trouble. The gotcha. There's a gotcha feel to every narcissistic relationship. It's also infantilizing, evan that I'm going to get in trouble. That's very much a child's statement, right. So these relationships are designed to leave a person feeling as disempowered as a child would in a relationship.

Yeah, you said something before though that did jump out to manage. The language you use was fascinating. You said you would get in trouble if you did something wrong, you know, bring the water in the wrong cup. First of all, in no healthy human relationship, child or adult, should anyone ever feel that they were going to get in trouble. A child shouldn't feel that they're going to get in trouble. They might feel like, I know, Mom told me not to do this. A consequence or something get in trouble. The gotcha. There's a gotcha feel to every narcissistic relationship. It's also infantilizing, evan that I'm going to get in trouble. That's very much a child's statement, right. So these relationships are designed to leave a person feeling as disempowered as a child would in a relationship.

And it's knowing that something painful is coming.

And it's knowing that something painful is coming.

Correct, It's like you know that whatever's coming is really going to hurt.

Correct, It's like you know that whatever's coming is really going to hurt.

It's really going to hurt. Yes, and that's terrifying.

It's really going to hurt. Yes, and that's terrifying.

It is. Yeah.

It is. Yeah.

Well, testifying in front of Congress, Evan explained the painful punishment she experienced, saying she was tied up by her hands and feet, beaten, and told by her abuser quote, I could kill you right now. Here's the thing I want to really talk about is you were only nineteen when this relationship began, in eighteen. I'm not going to use child feels a little heavy handed though adolescent. Yes, And this beautiful brain of ours is kind of rocking and rolling to you, like summer meter twenty five and thirty. A lot of innervating still happening in this frontal lobe. It's the last part of the turkey to cook, which is why we see adolescents are, you know, kind of sometimes all over the map.

Well, testifying in front of Congress, Evan explained the painful punishment she experienced, saying she was tied up by her hands and feet, beaten, and told by her abuser quote, I could kill you right now. Here's the thing I want to really talk about is you were only nineteen when this relationship began, in eighteen. I'm not going to use child feels a little heavy handed though adolescent. Yes, And this beautiful brain of ours is kind of rocking and rolling to you, like summer meter twenty five and thirty. A lot of innervating still happening in this frontal lobe. It's the last part of the turkey to cook, which is why we see adolescents are, you know, kind of sometimes all over the map.

Yeah, and impulsive.

Yeah, and impulsive.

And it don't mean this word to be like dismissive, but to me, you were a child in many ways, absolutely, and so to the verbiage and the power and the control. You weren't eighteen years old? What age were you when the relationship ended?

And it don't mean this word to be like dismissive, but to me, you were a child in many ways, absolutely, and so to the verbiage and the power and the control. You weren't eighteen years old? What age were you when the relationship ended?

Twenty two?

Twenty two?

Okay, so four years And in that whole period of time eighteen to twenty two, this never got done.

Okay, so four years And in that whole period of time eighteen to twenty two, this never got done.

Oh.

Oh.

I felt was completely stunted. So much catching up to do afterwards. I felt like I fell so far behind on life skills and communication skills and relationship skills. And that was another thing that was really hard to navigate after getting out, was having to play catch up and feeling like my peers had passed me and not knowing how to function.

I felt was completely stunted. So much catching up to do afterwards. I felt like I fell so far behind on life skills and communication skills and relationship skills. And that was another thing that was really hard to navigate after getting out, was having to play catch up and feeling like my peers had passed me and not knowing how to function.

And there's grief around that, Oh, so much grief.

And there's grief around that, Oh, so much grief.

I mean, I grieved like the person I was before the abuse, and I hear this a lot with survivors of this kind of abuse. It was hard for me to watch films that I had done from before. It was hard for me to look at photographs. I think also because one of their goals was to make sure I felt terrible about myself, yeah, and that I felt inadequate and broken, and they would tell me constantly like that I was broken and no one was ever going to love me after this, and after he was done with me. No one was going to love me or touch me or you know, take me seriously. And this is one of the reasons why I tried to kill myself before the very end of our relationship, because I didn't know how to get back to baseline or where I was, not even saying like I was the healthiest person, but nowhere near where I was. So I at one point felt like the only way through it was to die because I didn't know how to get myself back. A grief around who you were, what was lost, what your life should have been, should have looked like. I felt like my life was supposed to have a very different trajectory, and the realization of what happened to you. The more I learned about it, the more grief comes with it. Because when you read a textbook about domestic violencer, about narcissism, and you think these things that have happened you are so unique and have kept you so isolated from people for so long, and then you start reading about it and the realization of how common it is and all of these red flags that maybe had you known or could have looked out for, or maybe it was well educated about, maybe you could have seen it. But there's also a part of me that just thinks everybody susceptible to this.

I mean, I grieved like the person I was before the abuse, and I hear this a lot with survivors of this kind of abuse. It was hard for me to watch films that I had done from before. It was hard for me to look at photographs. I think also because one of their goals was to make sure I felt terrible about myself, yeah, and that I felt inadequate and broken, and they would tell me constantly like that I was broken and no one was ever going to love me after this, and after he was done with me. No one was going to love me or touch me or you know, take me seriously. And this is one of the reasons why I tried to kill myself before the very end of our relationship, because I didn't know how to get back to baseline or where I was, not even saying like I was the healthiest person, but nowhere near where I was. So I at one point felt like the only way through it was to die because I didn't know how to get myself back. A grief around who you were, what was lost, what your life should have been, should have looked like. I felt like my life was supposed to have a very different trajectory, and the realization of what happened to you. The more I learned about it, the more grief comes with it. Because when you read a textbook about domestic violencer, about narcissism, and you think these things that have happened you are so unique and have kept you so isolated from people for so long, and then you start reading about it and the realization of how common it is and all of these red flags that maybe had you known or could have looked out for, or maybe it was well educated about, maybe you could have seen it. But there's also a part of me that just thinks everybody susceptible to this.

Everybody is because with some exceptions, but very few human beings are oriented towards attachment and love. And I think that I'm sort of on an anti red flag crusade, really yes, because I think it's an unsafe framing because when we make it about red flags, we're putting the onus on the survivor of why didn't you see it right?

Everybody is because with some exceptions, but very few human beings are oriented towards attachment and love. And I think that I'm sort of on an anti red flag crusade, really yes, because I think it's an unsafe framing because when we make it about red flags, we're putting the onus on the survivor of why didn't you see it right?

Well?

Well?

Versus this is unacceptable behavior, right, And then to let people know that when the unacceptable behavior descends into something where you've already started to form what feels like a meaningful attachment, resting your way out of this is not something you can do alone. You need either someone to throw you the life ring or to tell you out, because that's a big, big leap to frame it that way. No eighteen year old on the planet is going to be able to manage that. Most forty eight year olds on the planet are not able to manage it. And it's interesting because I do talk a lot about people who is more vulnerable, who's more susceptible? Are there things that can stack the odds? Sure?

Versus this is unacceptable behavior, right, And then to let people know that when the unacceptable behavior descends into something where you've already started to form what feels like a meaningful attachment, resting your way out of this is not something you can do alone. You need either someone to throw you the life ring or to tell you out, because that's a big, big leap to frame it that way. No eighteen year old on the planet is going to be able to manage that. Most forty eight year olds on the planet are not able to manage it. And it's interesting because I do talk a lot about people who is more vulnerable, who's more susceptible? Are there things that can stack the odds? Sure?

Yeah, Yeah, I think they say like most domestic violence crimes, like the highest rates are between the ages of sixteen and twenty four, because that's when you're absolutely you know, you're a child and an adult's body at that point.

Yeah, Yeah, I think they say like most domestic violence crimes, like the highest rates are between the ages of sixteen and twenty four, because that's when you're absolutely you know, you're a child and an adult's body at that point.

It's things like, yes, certainly, things like having a history of trauma, having a history of narcissistic relationships in your life. But we can even pivot to things like being really positive, see see the.

It's things like, yes, certainly, things like having a history of trauma, having a history of narcissistic relationships in your life. But we can even pivot to things like being really positive, see see the.

Good and everyone that was definitely.

Good and everyone that was definitely.

No, being very forgiving, being a rescuer, seeing something in someone that you feel the rest of the world is not seeing one hundred percent. Then you also have to count for things like being less empowered in a system or culture or society because of race, because of lack of financial support, because of lack of family support. That also, almost the privilege of detecting a red flag is taken away from you right right Then, on top of all of this, you throw in that this narcissistic person is charismatic, compelling, charming, smart, and often the reason they grab us is because for us in particular, there may be something about this person that jumped out of us. When you take all of that and shake it up, the milkshake you're pouring out of there is dangerous and toxic and confusing, and there was a time you truly cared about this person.

No, being very forgiving, being a rescuer, seeing something in someone that you feel the rest of the world is not seeing one hundred percent. Then you also have to count for things like being less empowered in a system or culture or society because of race, because of lack of financial support, because of lack of family support. That also, almost the privilege of detecting a red flag is taken away from you right right Then, on top of all of this, you throw in that this narcissistic person is charismatic, compelling, charming, smart, and often the reason they grab us is because for us in particular, there may be something about this person that jumped out of us. When you take all of that and shake it up, the milkshake you're pouring out of there is dangerous and toxic and confusing, and there was a time you truly cared about this person.

Oh that's the time. That's the hardest to think about or talk about.

Oh that's the time. That's the hardest to think about or talk about.

Really, it's really the hardest part to access because it's so hard to imagine now and it's so sad to think about and what I thought I felt. And that's the scariest part because for me, it wasn't just about like trusting other people.

Really, it's really the hardest part to access because it's so hard to imagine now and it's so sad to think about and what I thought I felt. And that's the scariest part because for me, it wasn't just about like trusting other people.

It was trusting myself again.

It was trusting myself again.

Because there's a lot of people are like, oh, I ignored my gut feeling or ignored red flags. But sometimes you don't see red flags. You don't have a gut feeling.

Because there's a lot of people are like, oh, I ignored my gut feeling or ignored red flags. But sometimes you don't see red flags. You don't have a gut feeling.

Everything feels fine, like you feel completely safe. I really felt.

Everything feels fine, like you feel completely safe. I really felt.

Like I was lucky to be there, and I was being really taken care of, and I was being saved.

Like I was lucky to be there, and I was being really taken care of, and I was being saved.

And in the beginning, they.

And in the beginning, they.

Were careful with me, they were slow with me. They like they took their time to establish a sense of trust and safety and vulnerability. It took a while for things to really escalate.

Were careful with me, they were slow with me. They like they took their time to establish a sense of trust and safety and vulnerability. It took a while for things to really escalate.

Okay, so how old was he when he met you?

Okay, so how old was he when he met you?

He was thirty seven. He was eighteen years older.

He was thirty seven. He was eighteen years older.

Okay, so he was eighteen years older than I'm still not the age that he was.

Okay, so he was eighteen years older than I'm still not the age that he was.

Okay, wow, yeah, let's just sit with that for a minute. Yeah, you are still not the age that he was as you approached that age thirty seven, and you witness what eighteen looks like in the world.

Okay, wow, yeah, let's just sit with that for a minute. Yeah, you are still not the age that he was as you approached that age thirty seven, and you witness what eighteen looks like in the world.

This just happened to me. Actually, my little sister just turned eighteen. Wow. And I spent a day with.

This just happened to me. Actually, my little sister just turned eighteen. Wow. And I spent a day with.

Her and a friend of hers that I was around the same age, and that is all I could think of all day was, Yes, she is so smart and beautiful and intelligent, but she's a child.

Her and a friend of hers that I was around the same age, and that is all I could think of all day was, Yes, she is so smart and beautiful and intelligent, but she's a child.

That's a child, that's a child.

That's a child, that's a child.

She's still so vulnerable and innocent. And that doesn't mean I don't have respect for her and think that she's not smart. But yes, it was so apparent to me that day just how vulnerable I was at that age, and imagining somebody like Brian imagining her in his clutches, and you know, it helped paint a better picture for me too. Why so many people were their alarm bells were going off back in the day, but I was already set up to really just not trust.

She's still so vulnerable and innocent. And that doesn't mean I don't have respect for her and think that she's not smart. But yes, it was so apparent to me that day just how vulnerable I was at that age, and imagining somebody like Brian imagining her in his clutches, and you know, it helped paint a better picture for me too. Why so many people were their alarm bells were going off back in the day, but I was already set up to really just not trust.

The adults around me anymore. Why was that?

The adults around me anymore. Why was that?

Brian definitely put that in my head from the beginning. I think because I had struggled a bit in the entertainment industry with feeling a bit controlled, feeling stifled, feeling like I had to behave and act a certain way to be loved or to be liked, and it didn't always feel authentic, and I think I felt a little trapped and I was struggling with that. That was part of the allure of being in his world. It just seemed like a place where you were free of judgment and it was all about expression and being exactly who you are.

Brian definitely put that in my head from the beginning. I think because I had struggled a bit in the entertainment industry with feeling a bit controlled, feeling stifled, feeling like I had to behave and act a certain way to be loved or to be liked, and it didn't always feel authentic, and I think I felt a little trapped and I was struggling with that. That was part of the allure of being in his world. It just seemed like a place where you were free of judgment and it was all about expression and being exactly who you are.

The part of me that wanted to feel.

The part of me that wanted to feel.

Like I was a part of some sort of noble cause, Like he felt like really trying to change people's.

Like I was a part of some sort of noble cause, Like he felt like really trying to change people's.

Way of thinking in the world, and.

Way of thinking in the world, and.

It felt like I was a part of something really special and really great.

It felt like I was a part of something really special and really great.

The part of myself that.

The part of myself that.

Yeah, that was a little like no things need to be shaken up and fuck the establishment.

Yeah, that was a little like no things need to be shaken up and fuck the establishment.

This is rebellious arts, you know, sort of short film.

This is rebellious arts, you know, sort of short film.

And he was capitalizing on a developmental chasm, the chasm between eighteen and thirty seven, let's fast forward, that is very different than the chasm between sixty and seventy nine. Does that make sense, right? Age differences aren't linear. Those gaps go steep and less deep depending on how old we are. But that is a chasm in at eighteen to his thirty seven. That's grooming. So you were talking about he was very careful with you in the beginning, that carefulness, that drawing you in subsequently creating trust and engagement. To me, there's no other word but grooming that could be applied there. Yeah, grooming and love bombing, And I would say the love bombing is part of the grooming. How long did this sort of careful period last before his behavior started to shift and change.

And he was capitalizing on a developmental chasm, the chasm between eighteen and thirty seven, let's fast forward, that is very different than the chasm between sixty and seventy nine. Does that make sense, right? Age differences aren't linear. Those gaps go steep and less deep depending on how old we are. But that is a chasm in at eighteen to his thirty seven. That's grooming. So you were talking about he was very careful with you in the beginning, that carefulness, that drawing you in subsequently creating trust and engagement. To me, there's no other word but grooming that could be applied there. Yeah, grooming and love bombing, And I would say the love bombing is part of the grooming. How long did this sort of careful period last before his behavior started to shift and change.

Well before anything even romantic happened. It was at least a few months of just hanging out and being friends and nothing feeling off or weird, and.

Well before anything even romantic happened. It was at least a few months of just hanging out and being friends and nothing feeling off or weird, and.

Everybody was like, what's going on between the two of you?

Everybody was like, what's going on between the two of you?

And I was like, there's literally nothing going on, Like everybody's freaking out over nothing. He's never tried anything with me, you know, And I was almost offended that people would ask that. And also at the time, I viewed myself as a child. I felt very young and sort of in over my head, but kind of special to be chosen, and maybe there was something special about me that only he saw and that everybody else was missing, because that is kind of how I felt in my life. So yes, it was a few months and then things sort of turned romantic, and I remember just being shocked because I didn't understand why he was a track me.

And I was like, there's literally nothing going on, Like everybody's freaking out over nothing. He's never tried anything with me, you know, And I was almost offended that people would ask that. And also at the time, I viewed myself as a child. I felt very young and sort of in over my head, but kind of special to be chosen, and maybe there was something special about me that only he saw and that everybody else was missing, because that is kind of how I felt in my life. So yes, it was a few months and then things sort of turned romantic, and I remember just being shocked because I didn't understand why he was a track me.

I just felt like.

I just felt like.

I never thought there was even a chance that that could happen. I was like, this is like some older rock star who's also like married and can have anybody he wants, and I'm like, this kind of weird, awkward, young kid essentially that's just kind of a nerd.

I never thought there was even a chance that that could happen. I was like, this is like some older rock star who's also like married and can have anybody he wants, and I'm like, this kind of weird, awkward, young kid essentially that's just kind of a nerd.

And then I.

And then I.

Think at the time how I made sense of it was like, oh, I'm just you know, I'm really mature for my age, and I'm actually really soulful and age doesn't really matter, and I'm.

Think at the time how I made sense of it was like, oh, I'm just you know, I'm really mature for my age, and I'm actually really soulful and age doesn't really matter, and I'm.

Like a fluke.

Like a fluke.

I didn't know that there were possibly other miners at the time.

I didn't know that there were possibly other miners at the time.

I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

In retrospect, especially when I found out about the alleged miners that have come forward and looking at the timeline, and then this moment of realization of not only did you never know this person never, Like the second he said alone to you, it wasn't real, but he picked you because you were young. He picked you because you were a child. He picked you because you were flat chested. There's certain things that I looked back and thought, these are things he's looking past to be with me. And then in retrospect it was no, this is why you were chosen. And that was like a huge switch that got flipped.

In retrospect, especially when I found out about the alleged miners that have come forward and looking at the timeline, and then this moment of realization of not only did you never know this person never, Like the second he said alone to you, it wasn't real, but he picked you because you were young. He picked you because you were a child. He picked you because you were flat chested. There's certain things that I looked back and thought, these are things he's looking past to be with me. And then in retrospect it was no, this is why you were chosen. And that was like a huge switch that got flipped.

The narrative had to change.

The narrative had to change.

When did you come into that realization that instead of these are things that were being looked past, these are actually reasons I was being chosen for, because to be chosen for those reasons is actually much more pathologic and unsettling.

When did you come into that realization that instead of these are things that were being looked past, these are actually reasons I was being chosen for, because to be chosen for those reasons is actually much more pathologic and unsettling.

Right when, you know, stories started popping up on the internet again, you know, I had to stay alleged. People started saying this happened to me, and I was this age, here's when it happened. That knocked me down so hard because I think before that I was still trying to convince myself that maybe there were horrible things that had happened, but maybe there were good things in between, or maybe we had moments of clarity or moments of real connection or moments of real love and sprinkled into that were just this devastation.

Right when, you know, stories started popping up on the internet again, you know, I had to stay alleged. People started saying this happened to me, and I was this age, here's when it happened. That knocked me down so hard because I think before that I was still trying to convince myself that maybe there were horrible things that had happened, but maybe there were good things in between, or maybe we had moments of clarity or moments of real connection or moments of real love and sprinkled into that were just this devastation.

And then when I found that out and I realized that.

And then when I found that out and I realized that.

He was leading a double life essentially, and that there was a whole other side to him that.

He was leading a double life essentially, and that there was a whole other side to him that.

I never knew existed.

I never knew existed.

Then everything feels like a violation at that point.

Then everything feels like a violation at that point.

Completely again that now we're back to the grief. Yeah, because if you're grieving a thing you thought was and I think this is one of the big struggles in narcissistic relationships because when you use that grief framework, a lot of people say, what, like, no one's dead, what are you talking about. If you had a relationship and it's done and it wasn't what it was, that's the problem. And so you're even grieving that you were in something you thought was something and it wasn't that something. It's very, very unsettling because you really truly believed it was this other thing.

Completely again that now we're back to the grief. Yeah, because if you're grieving a thing you thought was and I think this is one of the big struggles in narcissistic relationships because when you use that grief framework, a lot of people say, what, like, no one's dead, what are you talking about. If you had a relationship and it's done and it wasn't what it was, that's the problem. And so you're even grieving that you were in something you thought was something and it wasn't that something. It's very, very unsettling because you really truly believed it was this other thing.

And then you start questioning everything.

And then you start questioning everything.

We will be right back with this conversation. You've questioned everything. So what happens with accumulated gaslighting is that you actually start to feel psychotic, is that you're no longer in reality.

We will be right back with this conversation. You've questioned everything. So what happens with accumulated gaslighting is that you actually start to feel psychotic, is that you're no longer in reality.

Right.

Right.

It's funny.

It's funny.

There were a couple of projects that I did before coming forward that shook things up.

There were a couple of projects that I did before coming forward that shook things up.

It was like it shook something loose.

It was like it shook something loose.

In my psyche that had been sort of like calcified and buried away. First one was when I had to do like a pretty brutal sexual assault scene in a film called Into the Forest.

In my psyche that had been sort of like calcified and buried away. First one was when I had to do like a pretty brutal sexual assault scene in a film called Into the Forest.

And that was the first day that I.

And that was the first day that I.

Started questioning some of the things that had happened to me and that they were possibly assault.

Started questioning some of the things that had happened to me and that they were possibly assault.

I couldn't even.

I couldn't even.

Say that I was raped for many, many many years after the fact, like it wouldn't even come out of my mouth. And people started asking me about that scene when I was doing press for the film, and I really tried to dodge questions about it, just sort of deny it, like, oh, no, this has never happened to me, but I've got a lot to say about it, and that wasn't sustainable. Right after I did that movie, actually I went and did West World. There was only a day between the two of those projects. I finished one, I got on the plane immediately started filming Westworld, and then I didn't know what West World was really going to be about. They kept everything kind of hidden from us, and so I was finding out with the show like script by script and as an actor.

Say that I was raped for many, many many years after the fact, like it wouldn't even come out of my mouth. And people started asking me about that scene when I was doing press for the film, and I really tried to dodge questions about it, just sort of deny it, like, oh, no, this has never happened to me, but I've got a lot to say about it, and that wasn't sustainable. Right after I did that movie, actually I went and did West World. There was only a day between the two of those projects. I finished one, I got on the plane immediately started filming Westworld, and then I didn't know what West World was really going to be about. They kept everything kind of hidden from us, and so I was finding out with the show like script by script and as an actor.

Being put in situations.

Being put in situations.

Where you have to be in peril or you're getting beaten up or getting dragged or being threatened, or you're having to stand up against an abuser. As an actor, at least for me, you go back in your rolodex and you say, what can I draw from bring real emotion to the scene. And of course I had my experiences, and it was the first time I think I'd really let myself go back and feel certain things because I wasn't able to cry about it for about I want to say, seven years.

Where you have to be in peril or you're getting beaten up or getting dragged or being threatened, or you're having to stand up against an abuser. As an actor, at least for me, you go back in your rolodex and you say, what can I draw from bring real emotion to the scene. And of course I had my experiences, and it was the first time I think I'd really let myself go back and feel certain things because I wasn't able to cry about it for about I want to say, seven years.

I didn't cry about anything.

I didn't cry about anything.

That had happened to me until I got in a trauma therapy like many many years.

That had happened to me until I got in a trauma therapy like many many years.

Ago, seven years out of the relationship before you were able to cry about it, before I was able to shed a tear.

Ago, seven years out of the relationship before you were able to cry about it, before I was able to shed a tear.

Yeah, And then suddenly I'm doing these scenes where it's my job, you know, it's like you got to go there. And it gave me permission, I think, yeah, and a buffer because I was in a controlled situation, so I could allow myself.

Yeah, And then suddenly I'm doing these scenes where it's my job, you know, it's like you got to go there. And it gave me permission, I think, yeah, and a buffer because I was in a controlled situation, so I could allow myself.

In a bit more. And it just like opened up Pandora's box.

In a bit more. And it just like opened up Pandora's box.

Like there's a scene like my character is programmed, she can't pull any triggers of any guns, she's trapped, can defend herself, and then there's a scene where she finally does and she overrides her program and she pulls the trigger and she gets up and she runs, And that scene, I remember, was a big moment for me, having to act the feeling of being held back and then breaking through it, and then definitely filming the finale, there's this beautiful monologue that I was given about I'm not crying for myself, I'm crying for you because I'm going to stand up and I'm going to keep going and You're going to.