Hey, navigators, on this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I'm answering all of your burning questions about how, when, and what it means to go no contact with a narcissist. This is a common dilemma, but it's not as simple as you think. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So in our first question, Carmen asks, when you talk about going no contact, is it literally zero contact? My dad is a narcissist. If I do this, does that mean he won't see my kids either? So, Carmen, let's start at the top with what no contact is. I mean, it's what it sounds like. You have no contact with this person, right? You really have no ongoing communication? You're not texting you're not calling, you're not going places where they are. You don't see them anymore. Here's what's interesting about no contact. There was some research I had seen a couple of years ago, and in this it was about five hundred people have gone through narcissistic abuse, and no contact actually popped up as the strategy that was associated with sort of healing and feeling better the fastest. It kind of makes sense, right, if you don't have to deal with the person who is causing you so much harm, you are going to be less stressed out. The problem is that's often not possible. So no contact in its purest form is just it's no contact, but that is differentiated from something we call low contact, and low contact kind of has three things that come under it. The first is something called gray rock or gray rocking. Gray rock is basically what it sounds like. It's sort of being as uninteresting as a gray rock. So your answers tend to be kind of one or two words. You're sort of blah, you're not really engaged. You're not offering up your own topics of conversation. You're just yeah, okay, sure got it, but you don't ask about them when they ask you how you're doing, you might say good. A level up from gray rock is something called yellow rocking, a term that was actually developed by Tina Swithin, who was a guest on this podcast. And Tina developed this idea of yellow rocking, and the yellow I think is only because she actually likes the color yellow. She's like it was brighter than gray to her, So there's no magic mystery around the yellowness of it. But because Tina's work is so much in co parenting, she said, it's probably not healthy for a child to see a parent being so yes, no and flat. It could actually be unsettling for a child. Yellow rock is still relatively minimal engagement, but a little bit of bringing your own flare into it, like hey, yeah, great, hope you have a good time. There's a little bit more emotion and you know, did you have a good weekend? Like you can actually ask those kinds of questions and it doesn't seem as confrontational. Another term that's been developed actually with somebody I have worked with on this before, and she works in tech, and she said, well, you should call it firewalling, and I actually thought that was also a great communication strategy. Firewalling is when you think about what a firewall is on your computer or on your device, it's meant to protect the information going out and the information coming in. And what she was thinking and what sort of punched it out to mean is that when you're firewalling with a narcissistic person, you're not going to want to give them sensitive information, right the same way you wouldn't put like your social secure a number into some website that could take your information. You make sure it's a secure at sight. It's a similar thing that you're not going to share your vulnerabilities or something about you that could be used against you. But a firewall also protects what comes in with a narcissistic relationship. We can be very careful about what we put out and that good boundaries, so we don't let a lot of that toxic stuff in. So that combination of stuff is the whole sort of spectrum of low and low contact. But in Carmen's question, she's saying specifically dad's a narcissist. Sounds like she really wants to cut down her contact with him, But that does that mean he won't see my kids either? And this is where and throughout this episode, I want to highlight this issue that we cannot take such a black and white approach to no contact. It may very well be if Carmen feels, for example, that a relationship with their grandfather may not necessarily be a bad thing for these kids, or she doesn't want to stop them from having it, she may figure out ways of dropping them off, having a very sort of a quick goodbye, making sure it's on days when maybe they all have an organized activity to do. So, Carmen can definitely minimize her contact to almost nothing, very little in between contact, and then perhaps still the kids could have that relationship. Be very very careful. Any of you who may have children and then there's grandparents and extended family about ever saying nope, my kids can have nothing to do with you, and to do that from an angry place. I fully understand the anger, but my eye is on your kids. What you don't want is for those children down the line to say, how come I never got to have an experience with grandparents or aunts and uncles or whomever it may be, Because those potentially could sometimes be decent relationships. That will be its own other episode because it's complicated, but really tread lightly there and think through your situation. In some cases you might say no, this is a dangerous person for my kids, then absolutely honor that. But in this case, if Carmen feels that she does want her dad to have contact with her children, but she herself needs to really set down a very very very hard boundary with her dad, there are workarounds. Will it be one hundred percent no contact, No, because there has to be coordination, but that Carmen doesn't have to have deep or conflictual conversations with her father. In our second question, Angelica asks how do you actually go no contact? Do I tell my brother I'm no longer speaking to him, or do I just stop answering his texts without explanation? Angelica, you're asking the question for the ages here, which is not just about no contact, but the how of no contact. Any of you who know my work, you know I've always said, never call a narcissistic person out, and never, in very black and white terms, tell them this is what I'm about to do, because what they tend to do is, in a way, you don't want to give him your playbook, and they're going to almost view that as game on as Oh, you think you're going to go no contact with me, Well, I'll show you now. Some people would say, if Angelica doesn't tell her brother she's going to go no contact, doesn't that mean she's just ghosting him? Not entirely. First of all, ghosting is kind of having its minute in the sun for a while, where like ghosting is bad, that's a very antagonistic behavior. But for some people, if a relationship is toxic enough, it may actually be a little bit safer to kind of fade away because that sort of goodbye conversation won't serve much of a function. It's probably going to end up in more harm for the person who wants to go no contact, So it's going to be a case by case situation. I often tell people one of the best ways to go no contact is a bit of a fade. You're no longer initiating any communication with them. You're not reaching out to them, You're not responding to nonsense text you know how you do and how's your day. You may still respond to factual texts like do you have that this, especially if you have something that they actually need or someone else needs, You may respond to those, but there's going to be very very little further engagement, and if none of those sort of necessary texts are happening, then again there's just sort of a slow, slow fade. Here's where it gets tricky is that initially the person you're going no contact with is going to escalate. Hello, I've been trying to reach you. Where are you? Question mark? Question mark, question mark, emoji, emoji, voice, memo, voice, memo voice note, more emojis. They're going to keep coming at you because they're used to you responding to them. It's actually not that bizarre that they would want to know if you were to round up. If Angelica was to go to her brother and say, you know what, I've decided it's healthier for me to not be in contact with you. I would be willing to bet you a thousand bucks. Then Angelica's brother is going to come back at her with some gaslighted, cruel, manipulative response. So in most of these cases, a gradual fading out without a sort of I am never talking to you again kind of a thing is the better way to go. It'll be pretty clear, I mean, especially if there's a last conversation that you had with someone was very conflictual, very problematic. You've heard the apologies one hundred times before, and you just fade away. This is a lot easier if you do not live near this person, so if they live far away, you're not in regular contact with them. If you are in regular contact, the gradual fate is almost essential, because it's a little bit strange to have daily communication with someone and then just disappear. Since this is a family, Angelica can easily anticipate that her brother may very well try to use other family members to get to her. How come you're not responding to your brother's text. Your brother keeps asking me why you won't respond to him. That's the triangulation. Angelica could respond to that person and say, it's all good, how are you doing? You know this actually doesn't relate to you, so don't worry about it. But you can see it gets messy, however, making the big strong I am going no contact with you. I never recommend that. In our next question, THEO says, I've seen the term gray rocking a lot on social I've tried it, but it seems to be making things worse in my situation. Is that normal? Oh, THEO, you just said a mouthful. I'm so glad we got this question because this is exactly what happens, not only with no contact, but also with Gray Rock. You have to remember, for the narcissistic person, you are a source of supply. They're not listening to you. You are a source of response, you're a source of validation, you're a source of something to do. But they are not really listening to you unless it works for them. So if you disengage, if you won't spar with them, because remember, the narcissistic person's pretty much singular motivation in a relationship is power, control, domination. Right, they want to run the show. So if you're not communicating the way they want, they're losing some of that power and control and they do not like it. So Gray Rock really puts a narcissistic person on their back heel. They do not like it. Initially, a lot of people have told me, just like THEO asks, I went Gray Rock and things have gotten worse. They're baiting me, they're saying terrible things to me. It's like they're trying to get a rise out of me. Because remember Gray Rock is very, very unemotional. That's why I'm not as big a fan of it. There was a time when I was like gray Rock, but then I thought, you know, I was seeing more and more and more people were getting a lot of blowback. This is why yellow Rock, I think, is a better strategy. If you're going to have a low contact sort of an approach, then it doesn't feel like you've gone so flat. And I think people who go gray Rock are also more vulnerable to sort of the kind of like the mockery, Oh so, what does your therapist tell you not to talk to me? What is this? What is this whole thing? And they'll really sort of try to minimize what you're trying to do, which in essence is trying to protect yourself. So when you go gray rock, when you go no contact, you almost guarantee there's going to be an escalation, and that escalation can be really, really painful. They may keep pushing up the volume on the baiting where they're really going at things that matter to you that hurt you. They may be things about you, they may be things about your kids, they may be things in your life, beliefs that you hold that are really important to you. And then what you may find is that you almost snap. You're like, how could you say that? And now they've broken you out of your gray rock and they're satisfied. They're like, Okay, I'm cool. You're not. You're losing your mind. I guess you're the one who's unhinged and I've got it together. And then you're even angry at yourself. One thing I want to tell everyone about gray Rock, be kind to yourself. If you decide to go that way and they bait you and you kind of blow up at them, don't say, oh my gosh, I can't manage this, I'm so bad at this. You're great at this. It's not easy to hold your ground on either gray rock or no contact. Try some yellow rocking, Try a gradual sort of coming out. Don't be so much with a flat They're still going to push back because they want their usual banter with you. But be prepared that if you do go gray rock or no contact, there is going to be an escalation. Things are going to see worse. Now. What will happen is if you can white knuckle it, you'll come around the bend. And what will happen is you'll actually kind of be no longer interesting to them. It's they're baiting you. You're not taking the bait they're talking to you, you're not responding. They need more supply, and after a week or two or even month, maybe if you're no longer supply, they're going to move on to new supply. But that's a long time to endure the kind of again, the antagonism and the manipulation. But theo's experience is universal. So if any of you are struggling with an experience of when you go gray rocking or no contact, I'm here to tell you it's totally normal. One thing to also be clear on when it comes to narcissistic supply is narcissistic supply isn't just praise and applause and validation and Instagram likes. Narcissistic supply can be also what we consider sort of we'd usually considered negative or bad stuff, but actually getting into an argument with them. Narcissistic people are fighters. They like the fight. The lack of empathy in some ways makes it so they're willing to go on the attack. Now, don't get me wrong. They're thin skinned and probably more sensitive than any of us are, and so when they're hurt they lash out. More So if you get a zinger in there, they're going to come at you, and in a way, that idea that they could win the fight is a source of supply for them. So be aware that in this case, your supply may not just be that you're praising them. That shit may have sailed long ago, but you may be this source of conflict that almost becomes like a little psychological boxing sparring workout, And you don't want it, but they do because that's really helps them feel powerful. In this next question, James asks very simply, how do I know it's time to go no contact? I wish there was a little ping you heard in your head and you're like, this is it. Ask anyone who's ever gone no contact, and they'll say I just knew. They would say, it's gotten to the point where this relationship is harming me. I ruminate about it. I feel sick before seeing them, I feel sick after seeing them. I feel sick while I'm with them. You really really will feel that. I'm going to tell you personally, some of my no contact experiences were a person said something so hurtful that violated my values. That were personal attacks. There were bells you could not unring that something in me just sort of died, and I thought, nah, this is simply just not good for me. And so I know for me personally, and I think for many people, no contact is spurred on by someone saying something that was very cruel or unforgivable. No contact, you often will know, is again more than anything, it's harm. Now, there's some cases that are obvious harm, like if there was physical violence or physical threats, that feels much more in your face and very clear, like this is not even a safe place for me anymore, or this person has put me in dangerous situations that will be more obvious. But in many narcissistic relationships, stuff is subtle, and the subtlety is what throws people off, and many people will think, oh, I feel uncomfortable, maybe I'm too sensitive. Sadly, this is why it can take a while for people to fully give in to say this is just not good for me. And this podcast and anything we talk about related to narcissism is a place for me to tell you this is not good for you, this will never be good for you. But we were never given permission to be able to say a toxic relationship is actually harming our health. And so when it comes to no contact, what you might also feel is that, because there's no sort of aha moment, you may experiment with it. You might find that, Okay, I cannot I feel sick, I cannot do this anymore. I'm not listening to this anymore. And you go no contact for maybe a month or six weeks or even two weeks, and then somehow you get pulled back in. Please don't view those as fails. I feel like that no contact practice almost gives you a chance to build your muscle when it comes to being hoovered or sucked back in. It helps you build your muscle to see what it feels like to not have this person around, to learn new ways of communicating, to holding your ground. So no contact is not often a all in process. It's often a series of false starts, if you will, and over time you'll find that, Okay, after two weeks, I talked to them again. We went exactly where we were before. The other thing I also recommend is journaling. It can really be helpful, even if you make a brief note in your phone, like Okay, the last six times I talked to this person, they publicly shame to me, humiliate me, said really unacceptable things. Memory is a funny thing. It'll often courten off the things we don't want to remember. So if you write it down and say, okay, the last six times this happened, maybe it's time not to do this anymore. A combination of all that helps, But again, there's no magic ding in the sky that you hear. It's a process. But pay attention to your body. If you feel sick at the thought of even seeing this person, or you feel sick after you talk to this person, no contact maybe something that you want to start considering. One of the big risks in trying to figure out when to go no contact is that you may be waiting for that proverbial line in the sand to be crossed. Right if they use this kind of language, if they were to ever say this, if they were to ever raise hands against me, then I will know I'm out. The struggle becomes And this is something that's really nefarious about narcissism. Somehow they know how to fly right under that line in the sand, like they don't quite cross it, but they flirt with it. And if you get too stuck on your line in the sand, over time, you may endure a lot of emotional abuse but not quite get to that line that you made a promise. If that happens, if I had a dollar for every person who ever said to me in a narcissistic relationship, if I find out they're cheating on me, or if they ever hit me, I'm out. I'm like, Okay, So thirty years of having your reality denied and being emotionally abused doesn't qualify. But a one night stand in Vegas would be enough to get you out of this mess, you know, So that kind of line in the sand stuff. I understand how some people feel like, Okay, now I know I can go no contact or get out of this. But because sometimes that line never gets reached, sometimes for even years or decades, be very careful with that, because you may get so wedded to the line that you miss the accumulated abuse that you are enduring. In our next question, Pamla asks is no contact forever or should I revisit it every few months. I love how this question was asked because it gets at this idea of calibrating no contact, and I think in some ways might make no contact feel like a more realistic strategy for folks, if you really were to embrace no contact as I am never going to speak to you again, in a way, it's like a death, and it may be the death of someone you're not I mean, you just don't want them bothering you anymore or harming you anymore. But it's not that you're wishing that. The foreverness of it all is a lot existentially almost to get our heads around. So this idea of can I recalibrate my no contact, I would say you don't need to put yourself on a deliberate schedule of every four months or six months or every year that you'd have to revisit it, but rather make a promise to yourself to say, I'm going to let life unwind. I'm going to make sure I'm taking care of me, that I'm listening to my intuition, and then if a moment comes up where it feels like there is contact happens and it's appropriate and I feel safe communicating back, then that's fine. Again. I'm going to share a personal story where I did go no contact with someone and then there was a reason this person had to reach out to me they never would have otherwise, and the person had hurt me. I went no contact. They reached out to me with a piece of information. The piece of information was actually quite shocking. I could have not responded, but the piece of information hurt both of us. The news hurt both of us. So I responded and I said, thank you so much for sharing that. That was so tragic, and I even want to bridge further. I'm like, I hope all of you are well. And the person responded and said yeah, actually, da da da, and gave me some more details of the thing that I was being emailed about and said we are all fine. Didn't ask about me, which was great because I was able to say, like, and then we're going back to no contact. So it's a dance. It's very much a dance. Well I have contact with this person again, Probably not, you know, unless some other tragedy befalls us. But that was such a unique kind of a thing. So this idea of is it forever all kinds of things. Think of families when, for example, you've gone no contact with a person for a long time, a tragedy happens in the family, and there's a funeral where people are going to the hospital. It happens and you may revisit and say, you know what, I'm not gonna let this person back in my life, but I feel much more healed now, so I can handle this. I can say a few perfunctory words to them, and then I can move forward because I have healed. I want you to view no contact in some ways as a bit of bed rest for your soul. And what I mean by that is nobody goes no contact lightly. You have been so harmed by this person that by going no contact you're not having to endure this pain and these attacks for a while. Through that rest, that soul rest, as it were, you actually heal some more. And through that healing you might find that this person has lost their power. So I am not a fan of a person saying I'm going to revisit this on an interval, but instead trust yourself to say, I'm going to heal. I am not going to have this harmful conflict in my life, and I'm going to see where life goes. And someday, if I see them, I may talk to them. I may not. I have worked with folks who have said I want no contact until the person passed, I never saw them again. I've had Others say it went ten years and something intervene the story. I told you it was like five or six years, and then something forced that person to contact me again. And then sometimes after that brief contact, you may go no contact again. So I think that it's a personal process for everyone. But no contact doesn't necessarily mean forever. However, typically it does mean for the foreseeable future. We will be right back with this conversation. So in my next question, Seth is asking, my wife is considering going no contact with her dad, how can we expect him to react if we do cut ties. So in Seth's question, it's a difficult to answer because I don't know how much contact they had with her father to begin with. If this is someone they were seeing every day or every weekend or multiple times a month, obviously there's going to be a stronger reaction than if it was someone they only saw sporadically. It may not even be noticed. It also comes down to how much attention you're drawing to it. If Seth and his wife they don't have that much contact with her father, if they slowly fade out, it may not go as noticed. However, if there's a lot of regular contact. It's definitely, definitely going to get noticed. The main pushback a person would get in this case Seth's wife with her father. The main pushback people won, and I think at some level we could even empathize with it. Is a narcissistic person wants to know why, why are you cutting ties with me? No matter what answer you give them, they're going to have an argument against it, and invariably they're going to gaslight you and tell you you're the one with the problem. You're too sensitive, that's not true, that never happened. You need to grow up. What kind of person does this? You'll be sorry. I mean, it's a lot, even if you gave the most thoughtful answer with documentation. These are the texts, here's the voicemails, here's the emails, here's your conduct, Here's what happened, here's the thing you did. They're going to feel that you have no right, you have no right to a life separate from them, right, that's the nature of the narcissistic relationship. So you going no contact is you exerting your individual, autonomous self and that doesn't work in a narcissistic relationship. So you can expect him Seth. You can expect him to react badly. You can expect that he may very well, again, not knowing the specifics of their case, you can expect that he may speak badly about both of you to other family members. Heck, Seth, he might even blame you. Looking for a fall person for this might say, oh, this is this Seth's fall. Ever since my daughter married Seth. There may be triangulation in that way who's to blame. There may be smear campaigns, everyone in the family being told, look, how terrible you know Seth and Seth's wife are. The reaction will be swift, it'll be strong if there's money involved. So, for example, if there was any kind of family trust or a state, it's very likely that Seth then his wife will be cut off from all of that may be left out of lines of communication. There may be passive aggressive stuff where other people in the family might say, oh, whoops, forgot to tell you that such and such family member was really sick, and Seth's wife might have still liked that family member. So you've got to remember. The mistake people make is that they think they can localize their no contact. It's just going to be about this one person. None of us are an island. So whether it's a family, friend, group place, if you try to go no contact with one person, it's going to send these sorts of lines out to all of the other relationships around you. Those people are affected too, and more often than not, they're angry at the person who went no contact because you're the one disrupting the status quo. And in this case, it might very well be that Seth's father in law is the one who's viewed as the person who's suffering or the victim, versus Seth's wife, who clearly has gone through something that has led her to want to go no contact. In our next question, Mark asks, It's been many years since I've had contact with my ex, but I still have anxiety about what the interaction would be if I ever cross paths with him. What do you recommend in the situation where you come face to face with your narcissist after you go no contact? Oh, Mark, I feel you. Let me tell you. I can think of two narcissistic people from my past where if I still think I saw them, i'd feel sick. Let me tell you right now, and I see survivors go through this all the time. Some people will say, I am still scared of this person. This brought up such strong feelings for me. I'm afraid of how I'll feel. I'm afraid I'll have a panic attack. I'm just afraid. And that's not an uncommon kind of a response, so just want to normalize that from the jump. There are some people will say, you know what, all this time no contact has done me a world of good. I feel much stronger, I feel really solid in my life. If I ran into them, I ran into them. Most people will say if they've gone no contact with someone, especially a narcissistic person, they will feel a little that sort of autonomic nervous system stomach discomfort, tightened throat feeling when you see someone, your eyes get a little bit wider, that whole thing. I would say that if you know this could happen, your best tool is preparation, something you can do if you're randomly run into someone in a grocery store. That stuff happens. And I have had many a client leaven entirely full grocery cart and run back to their car saying I can't I absolutely can't do this perfectly fine response, But if you know you're going to see them. It might be again family get together. It could be a work event, anything where you know you could be prepared, then prepare That preparation may look like breathing exercises just to kind of get yourself centered. It may be self talk like I can give myself permission to step away, give yourself permission to step away, And that might mean sort of if you're lucky, you see them before they see you, and it may be you say okay, I can go, I can walk away if they come up to me, have a response. You've sort of planned out, Hi, how are you? You know, literally practice it in the mirror, because some people say, okay, I've got my words, so now I know I can pull on them, and so you're prepared in that way. Ideally you're at such an event with someone else. I remember working with somebody who knew they were going to an event and they knew there was a very strong probability they were going to run into a narcissistic X. And while they'd been no contact I was like three or four years, they were still really uncomfortable about it. So they had a friend with them and they said, would you just stick with me all evening, and they said it just made such a difference to know that there was someone with me, and that when they finally crossed paths, it almost lightened it a little bit to have someone at their side they knew had their back. So that's another form of preparation. Now, if there's no preparation, that's a whole nother game. A lot of people will say it threw them off for the day. They felt a sense of panic, they felt very uncomfortable again, normal reactions. So remember in the moment, you can just say hi or oh, I'm surprised to see whatever all that physiological stuff's going to happen, Get yourself out of that situation as soon as you can. It could be a restroom. Ideally it would be outside, but that may not always be possible, and give yourself a minute again. It might be breathing, it might be centering, It might be splashing cold water on your face, whatever it takes. It might be calling a friend. You're not going to believe what just happened. Can you talk me through this? Whatever you need to do to get yourself back to center and recognize. Probably for the rest of that day you're going to be very uncomfortable and treat it almost like a little bit of a sick day, if you can, like, Okay, I need to take it slower today. Your body is having a very real reaction to something, so you have to be prepared for that. So this way no contact is tricky. Low contact means you still have some contact with them, so it may not be a shocking. But if you go no contact and they come out of nowhere, and it may not even be that you run into them in person, it may be that their name shows up in your inbox, it may be that someone shares something with you and their picture is in it, you'll be completely surprised. But the in real life meeting, that's where it gets really really overwhelming, And so be prepared for the overwhelmed and for those of you. So there's a bright lining to this particular question. Some of you might say, you know what, I saw them and I didn't feel anything, to which I say, bravo, I'm so happy for you. That's what healing looks like, and it happens. I mean, i'd say probably a good forty fifty percent of the time people say yeah, I didn't feel anything anymore. If anything, I was like, oh, okay, I got past this. So that reaction for many people will eventually come, but for some of you this can be really destabilizing. And preparing as much as you can when you have that luxury and when you can't, getting yourself out of the situation and getting yourself back in alignment, giving yourself a chance to breathe and get centered back in your body is everything. In our next question, MICHAELA says, I'm one month into cutting ties with my sister and I'm consumed with guilt. My best friend says I should just call her and make peace. Help me. Okay, So the guilt when you cut ties with somebody who's significant in your life, siblings, is a great example of that. It's overwhelming. I'm going to come back to my initial point. Almost nobody goes no contact lightly. I think of no contact as an iceberg. All this stuff has been happening for a really long time. Most of the iceberg is under the water. It's been happening and happening and happening, and you've been rolling up and continuing to have contact with this person, and then when you finally go no contact, it's a little bit of that iceberg we can see above the water. So again, you didn't come to this decision lightly. But that said, it is quite possible that the other person is telling you they don't like this. Why, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean it. Give me another chance. You know, you're overreacting, And because especially if you're trauma bonded, which many people are in narcissistic relationships, especially in deep relationships like siblings, the trauma bonded piece of you wants to go right to justify, rationalize the betrayal blindness piece that we've talked about on this podcast, Like, nah, I just conveniently forgot that and want to put yourself back into that situation because we want to maintain that status quo. It's really really uncomfortable to think about rocking the boat, to think about changing things in our life in such a dramatic way, and that trauma bonded sense. When we try to end these relationships, it literally feels like a part of our body is being torn out of us, even if the relationship isn't good for us. In fact, especially when the relationship isn't good for us, we literally feel like a part of ourselves is being torn out why narcissistic relationships only work because we've made up a big story about them, So we're pulling our own narrative out of us. That's why it hurts more. As a result of that, though, feeling guilt is a very common reaction when people set a no contact or a heavy heavy heavy boundary or a really really go low contact, and because of that that guilt, if the narcissistic person plays upon that, most people will succumb. What did I say about no contact? It's successive approximations, it's fits and starts. You go, you pull back, you go, you pull back. So if a Mikayla you decide you know what I can't, I got to go back and talk to my sister, then I'd say do it. Go talk to your sister. You've practiced this a little bit. And if your sister does it again, which if your sister's narcissistic, she probably will, now you've done this once, you can try again. The problem I've got with what's happening to Mikayla is the friend. When a best friend weighing in like this, especially if the best friend does not understand the breath and depth of what may have happened between Mikayla and her sister is actually not okay, because when Mikaela's already struggling with guilt and grief and loss, a best friend trying to put like a band aid solution on it, Oh, come on, just make peace. Is like when people tell you to forgive the narcissistic person. It doesn't work. It's very difficult to forgive someone who repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly has violated your trust and your sense of who you are, and sometimes even your sense of safety in the world. So for someone else to roll up and say, just make peace, it might even be what convenience is the best friend? If if the best friend is friends with both Mikaela and her sister, that kind of triangulation takes what's already an incredibly difficult process and makes it feel impossible for you. It might be talk to the best friend and say please don't cutting off some of those spaces for ourselves and saying that no, this isn't okay. You know, please don't step into this. You don't understand what this is. It can sometimes feel like a less threatening space for Michaela. There's probably a lot of really primal wounds around the sister, but with the best friend, maybe not so much. The best friend should have your best interests at heart, and above all else, a best friend should give you the space to make decisions that work for you, for you to be an individual and not do what might very well, for example, convenience the best friend, or allow the best friend to maintain their worldview of everybody getting along. Because we can talk about no contact really clinically and really surgically, But Mikhaela's question reminds us that some of what makes no contact so difficult are the other people who feel entitled to weigh in on something that really isn't their place to weigh in and make into a triangulated mess. So, Michaelee, if you do end up talking to your sister again, it's the nature of the process and you just sort of get more information and make decisions. But it may be time to have a conversation with the best friend to say, the measure of love is to give me the space to proceed in a way that feels right to me and to entrust me with my own life. In this next question, Sarah asks my ex partner and I have children together, so no contact isn't an option. How do I manage communicating with my co parent while protecting myself? So Sarah is asking the question that people in every co parenting situation ask, which is no contact is not an option for co parents. Definitely not if you have any minor children, and honestly, probably not until your children are well into adulthood. Right because stuff goes on, graduations are happening, and weddings are happening. It's very difficult to go no contact, even when you have adult children. It's easier than to go low contact. Tina Swidden's work on Yellow Rockery is sort of the gold standard for how to communicate with a co parent and a narcissistic ex. Keep it light, keep it disengaged. Remember that doctor Rominy rule I've always given you don't go deep, don't defend, don't engage, explain, don't personalize. That's part of sort of the low contact framework, which is just don't go there, don't get into it with them. You can ask the very very basic questions about the weather, it's been raining, the kid's soccer game was great. Did you hear that the fourth graders are going to have a new coach, the soccer games are now going to be Sundays at three, and said Sunday's a one. And you can say those things with like, hey, can you believe that they have a new soccer coach, that they've moved a soccer coach. You could probably get a good minute of conversation out of that. Here's what you got to remember. The parental communication obviously is to keep the trains running on time. But there's a secondary issue here, which is at least modeling something that resembles healthy communication to your children. Your kids are already rattled by their parents not being together, but it's really really rattling if the communication is tense and antagonistic and imbalanced. Now, there's only so much you can do if your ex partner's really coming at you, no matter how gracefully yellow rock you are. But it's a calibrated dance where you try yellow rock, and they may be sort of like, yeah, I don't care, Yeah sure, new soccer coachue, Yeah yeah, sure whatever. And at least your children are witnessing you giving it your best shot. So what they're not seeing is two parents going at each other. But you really trying to communicate in a way that you'd want your children to communicate with someone. Now, the other thing you want to keep in mind is that if you're co parenting, and especially if it has been a particularly antagonistic divorce and co parenting process, to use the parent in communication apps, whether that's My Family Wizard or Talking Parents, This is something that if it's not already part of your parenting agreement requirement, is something that should be part of it. The way the record is kept because it confirms there's red receipts, there's no workarounds in it. The entire text message record is considered to be admissible into any kind of ongoing court proceedings or anything like that. It keeps things clean and there's a certain accountability to that. That might be a way to keep some of the communication going on, some of the logistics that children don't need to hear about. But when it comes to how you actually speak to them in real time, using yellow rock, letting your children see that you're bringing your best self forward, hard as it is, you might have your fist clench and then when nobody's looking, scream into a pillow. That's fine. Kids don't need to see that. This is why the co parenting communication is such a challenging space. I'm going to jump into adult children, though, because I don't think we talk about that enough. It's almost like something magical doesn't happen when your kids turn eighteen. There's still stuff going on. Like I said, there's moving into dorms, or there's people moving away to do military service, or there are weddings or engagement parties or baby showers. All this stuff is going on, and it's quite possible that both you and their co parent are very much involved in this. The same rules apply. You're gonna have to yellow rock yourself all the way through this. The nice thing is when all kids are adults and kind of doing their own thing, you're certainly not texting about school plays and soccer pickups and school pickups that need fades away, but you're still going to have to roll up to them at whatever these functions are on your side. You can keep your side of the street clean by yellow rocking these communications and always remembering that the thing you're trying to do is making sure that whatever this event is in your adult child's life, that you are bringing your best self so they can have a good day. So in this next question, Jenna asks, this is the sixth time I've gone no contact with my ex in two years. It usually lasts three to six months. Then he wears me down, my addiction to him wins, and I let him back in the door. Now, about five months ago, I changed my phone number. I am racked with guilt because I didn't tell him I was going no contact. Will things get easier? And why do I have such a problem with him thinking I did this because I don't love him? So, Jenna, in this question, you know, we're really getting more deep into the issues of trauma bonding as well, right, and trauma bonding being that sort of almost unbreakable connection that's formed between a person and usually the other person has some sort of antagonistic, difficult personality, where it's the alternation between good and bad, the highs and lows, the chaos, the associating love with chaos, and the justifying and the rationalizing and the sheer confusion that these relationships are. And So the sixth time you've gone no contact in two years in the last three to six months, So let's start there, assuming that this is an unhealthy narcissistic relationship, and you're able to do that for three to six months at a time. That's actually not a bad thing. So let's sort of clock where the winds are in this one and that actually that's good. That's not easy to do. Then you say something I'm gonna call you out on here. You say, my addiction to him wins. You're not addicted to him, Okay. So this is something that actually it's languaging that a lot of people use around narcissistic relationships, and I don't agree with because there's a certain sort of passive element to this addiction piece that likens it to a disease, which I really don't agree with. For many people, once they really do understand what trauma bonded cycles are about, they actually get into good therapy, get good psycho education, they understand where these trauma bonded cycles come from. They're actually able to break through them. And for most people it's just really education. The fact of the matter is is that alternation between these really good days and I got to tell you, my guess is when your ex pulls you back, it's really good and because you you do have love for this person and that's the hard part about these narcissistic relationships. We still do love them. It doesn't just go away. No matter how badly they've treated us. We still love them. And that doesn't make you foolish or stupid or silly. That makes you a human being that's capable of love. Because we don't want you to lose that part of you. And so the backing and forth thing, it isn't healthy for you. And that's why therapy in a case like this is so important. But then this next piece of now you've leveled up, it feels jena to me that you really are feeling like, I've got to get out of this cycle. It's not good for me, and that's a really hard admission to make to yourself. So again I view this as progress. And you went so far as to change your phone number. Again progress not easy to do. But now you feel the sense of guilt because you actually believe that you don't want him to be hurt, thinking that you don't love him. The guilt is such a universal part of a trauma bonded relationship. I've done something wrong, right. We feel guilty when we think we've done something wrong, and so somewhere in this process, you've learned, you've been taught, you've believed that to not do whatever this person wants means that you're doing the wrong thing. Unless you're fully relenting to this narcissistic person, then you're doing a bad thing. And that's the message anyone gets in a narcissistic relationship. If I don't be totally what they want me to be, then I've done something bad. When we say it out loud like that, it sounds ridiculous, but that is literally how we feel. So will it get easier? As with all things, time is always our friend. That's what heals us and what's been hard for you, Jenna is three to six months and then you're back in so it's almost like to fully heal and you're putting weight on something that can't handle it right, So you get almost healed, and then boom, you go back and forth into sort of stressing that part of your psyche again, And that backing and forth thing means you aren't really quite healing. So yes, it will get easier if he cannot get in touch with you. Narcissistic people enjoy the roller coaster, they really really do. So this idea though, that you're struggling with him thinking that you did this because you don't love him, is that there's a part of you that wanted to leave this resolved. So many of us want the narcissistic person to know, actually, I did love you, I do love you, and this isn't healthy. That's a really hard thing to communicate. It goes back to those multiple truths of the narcissistic relationship I've talked about so many times, when you have to literally sit with a piece of paper and say, this was my partner. We were together for years, I really loved him. This relationship hurt me. I became depressed in this relationship. I miss him sometimes I wish we were together, But then I don't You see how that stacks up like pancakes. There, those multiple truths are when you list them out, you recognize there was never going to be a way to put a neat bow on this because if you roll up to them and say, hey, I do love you. Unfortunately for a narcissistic person, they interpret that as great, then still be my supply, but they'd never say that out loud. This is going to be a process of grief for Jenna. It's like processing any kind of massive loss in your life. And for Jenna, not only is it the loss of this person, but it's the loss of this cycle. Narcissistic relationships aren't just time consuming because we're always having to do what they want, but we think about them all the time. Am I doing the right thing? Did I say the right thing? Was that my fault? Ruminate? Ruminate? Ruminate? That takes up a lot of mental real estate. When these relationships go away can sort of feel like a lot of empty space up there, and that emptiness is literally experienced as an emptiness. But that emptiness is where you can flourish, where you get to be. You explore your aspirations, be in healthy relationships, be supported in your growth, and not devote yourself to basically writing a really toxic roller coaster. My conversation will continue after this break. In this next question, Kelly writes, I am considering going from low contact to no contact with my narcissistic mother, as even her small presence in my life feels like a constant threat. My two sisters and I all want to do it, but the image of our mom dying alone feels too heavy to bear. I feel like I'm stuck in an impossible mind. Either I let her continue stealing my life, or I live with the shame of feeling responsible for someone aging miserably and alone. How on earth do I navigate this? So Kelly so much here. First of all, I'm so sorry because this is as complicated as it gets. This transition from low contact to no contact, even how Kelly laid it out here, is actually how it sometimes does happen. It's not often that people go from every day, hey, we're in a relationship to boom. It is often a bit more of a transition. It almost feels like it's happening at a level that's under our consciousness, but it's slowly happening. The one thing that's again in supportive Kelly here is that she has two sisters in this with her, and they agree with her. That's a real blessing because it's many family systems like this. You'll have siblings that don't agree with this decision, so it's adding yet another level of distress to this kind of decision making. I don't know if the mom is older and sick right now, I'm reading this question, Kelly as though your mom isn't sick right now, but someday will be older and alone and potentially dying. You can't live into that future. It sounds like right now that your mother's presence in your life isn't good for you. This is where I'm saying no contact isn't just a communication tool, like get away from the narcissist. It's also a tool of healing. And given that your mom isn't at the precipice of dying, that she's kind of living her life and just making yours a mess, no contact at this point in your life may allow you to heal, feel stronger in yourself, gain that sense of autonomy and individuation and independence and a life separate from her that she's not weighing in on, that she's not making a mess of And as you do that, and as you build that core of yourself down the line, when that some day comes that she is aging miserably, you may actually feel that you've developed that core psychological strength, that sense of yourself, that authentic you separate from her, where you feel like you can show up as a passionate person. You know, whatever luck, bad luck has assigned this woman to be your mother, and as a compassionate person say Okay, I'm going to step in. I'm going to do what needs to be done, whatever it might be, and listen. It may not be a protracted experience like that. You don't know yet. What you don't want to do is take the work that you could be doing now on your healing and growth and project into an unknown future of how she is going to age and die. Your priority right now can be you, and if you do do this work, you may find that as the future unfolds and your mother is in this situation of aging alone, you may then feel that you have the bandwidth to step up in a way that feels authentic and compassionate to you and allow you to participate in whatever your mother's late in life or end of life looks like. That will help you stave off regret. Let you show up in a way that feels right to you. But in order to do that, you need some time to take care of you, Kelly and your situation. What I don't know is if your mom is actually quite sick now, if your mom is aging and this is a very current situation, you may not have that time. However, there is a place in this, and I've heard this happen from clients I've worked with, in people I've talked to over the years, where they'll say, you know what, I am an empathic person. I will do whatever I need to do with the realistic expectations of knowing she will not say thank you, she will have no gratitude, she will probably criticize everything I do. I know this, but many people grapple with the question of once this person passes, how do I want to look back on this story. This isn't about your mom in some ways, this is about you, And I don't know what your answer to this is. Some people might say, I'll be damned if this person how they've really really thrown such a wrench and invalidated my life in so many ways. I'll be damned if as their final act they leave me feeling like I'm an uncompassionate person. But if you are going to roll up and say, Okay, this is my responsibility, I'm going to step in here and in these next six months, year, however long, this end of life or older life period looks like that you be in therapy, that you have support, that you expect absolutely nothing in the realm of gratitude. You may even find out, and this is a wake up call. People will say, Okay, at the end, I really did show up for this older parent, and then find out when it comes time to wills and estates and all that nothing was left to you. You have to be prepared for that. The legacy here is not the parent having some form of deathbed revelation. The legacy here is that this person, this narcissistic parent, did not steal the core of what you know to be a compassionate inner sense of self. I think the struggle in situations like this is that so much of a narcissistic relationship is being out of our head. What if this happens, what if? When this happens? What if when that happens? What what if? And healing happens in the here and now. If you can work on the healing in the here and now when those what ifs roll up, you're going to be in a psychological position to better be able to manage it. Knowing who you are the narcissistic relationship steals from you your sense of who you really are. The more of that you can get back to, even when you're throwing a curveball, you feel more prepared psychologically, no matter how toxic it might be, to roll into it again to handle it. But if you stay in it and keep wondering, like I don't know what to do, I'm frozen because I don't know what's going to happen down the line. None of us do. But the one thing we do know is if you put the time, the effort, the resource into healing and taking yourself back now, the dividends will be that down the road, no matter how you have to deal with this narcissistic person, you're gonna have a lot more bandwidth to do it. So Stacy asks, I know it's not really anyone's business, but it's very awkward and sometimes triggering when people find out I haven't spoken to my mom in five years? What do I say to respectfully shut down the follow up questions? So here we're getting into the whole no contact shame, right. There's a whole movement out there that is about estrangement shaming, like no one should have to be a strange. And if you're a strange and there's something wrong with you, or you threw in the towel too quick, or anyone should be able to push through. And ah, I think the people writing that don't understand from narcissism. Nobody wakes up one day and says, you know what, it's Tuesday. I feel like getting a strange from my family. This has got to be one of the most ghastly journeys a person goes through because they have spent years, if not decades, trying to make it work within a family, making themselves smaller, denying all of their needs, giving up their aspiration, denying their true selves, all of that to avoid what feels like the annihilation of a family estrangement. So already, I think one of my problems with the whole area of estrangement is the way people make it feel like people are going into this frivolously. I've been practicing from Ust twenty five years, and I can tell you this, I have never ever seen anyone go into the idea of a family estrangement frivolously. That I promise you so. The other thing is, though we really really pathologize people who may be a strange from a family, who may have gone no contact. We view them with shame. We never stop to ask. Nobody stops to ask if this person has distance, cut off, gone no contact with their family. What was the family like, No, no, no, it's what's wrong with you? You won't talk to your family. I've actually talked to more than a few people will say, well, if I find out someone's a strange from their family, I don't know if I want to date them. Why because they might have healthy boundaries. I really struggle with this idea of pathologizing people who make this really really painful choice, because what you're really doing is it's almost like a double harm. They've already been harmed by having endured a difficult family system, then making a painful decision, and then being told by society that there's something wrong with them. And this is a burden that many survivors of narcissistic families face and keep in mind too, even since childhood. Kids who come from narcissistic families face some sense of shame because they know their family system at some level isn't working normally. So there's a shame, especially if they spend time with peers who do come from happier families or cousins or something like that. So when somebody asks, some people are willing to say it's none of your damn business. But I know that that's a stance that a lot of people are not able to take. It really comes down to how much information you want to share with someone, and that's going to vary situation to situation. If you just met someone, or if it's a workplace or a place where boundaries are a little bit different, you may not want to give somebody sort of a fuller picture of it. If you do know someone better or you're getting to know them. There's absolutely no reason that, with absolute strength and pride, you cannot lean into your truth, which is this was a harmful situation. I grew up in a situation that was psychologically harmful. I did everything I could, and when I had the awareness that this was actually harming me and impeding any sense of self and my growth, I had to step away. Can everyone hear that? No. I wish we lived in a world where they could. But the reason we're in a world full of enablers and narcissistic people is because a lot of people can't hear it. So this is where that concept that I talk about all the time when I talk about healing from narcissistic abuse of discernment that idea to determine again, it's that fire walling of it, all right, who gets to hear? What? How much of my truth do I share with anyone? Once you build that discernment muscle, it is such an important part of ongoing healing from narcissistic relationships, and in terms of setting boundaries and maintaining no and low contact. The fact is nobody's entitled to hearing your full story. You decide who gets to hear it. That requires trust building, spending enough time with someone to find out, and as time goes on, you may then, almost like letting out the rope on a boat, give more and more line of the story to a person who may be able to be entrusted empathically and compassionately with your story. And so respectfully, I think that you can say that if somebody says, oh, you haven't spoke your mom in five years, what's that about? Initially a great place to start be None of this has been easy, and it has been really long road to hear. It's hard for me to get into it. If you don't mind, There's so much else I want to talk about, so suffice it to say, it's just one of those heavy burdens I'm always gonna have to carry that will shut most people off that you're acknowledging it was hard that you don't want to spend the next hour talking about it. Thanks for asking, and can we go back to our previously scheduled conversation, but letting people know, yeah, this is a thing, it was very, very difficult, and then take the conversation where you want it. But that, I think the one thing we have to recommend, not just for trauma survivors, but survivors of narcissistic abuse. You share yourself on your time frame. Nobody else is entitled to your stories on any other schedule but yours. And in this next question, Alina asks, I went no contact with my sister for ten years, and I felt so much better. Now my father's very sick and I need to get involved. But I feel like a failure because I broke my note contact. What do I do? Oh, Allina, I'm so glad you asked this question because a lot of people treat no contact like it's almost like sobriety, Like I am nine years no contact, I'm ten years no contact. They're not related. Again, this is not an addiction model. Folks, right, no contact is a if you will communication and boundary tool, so more of a sort of a last resort tool that you're engaging in not to punish someone, not to make a point, but to protect yourself and heal. So in those ten years of no contact, you felt better, which meant it was a really good call on the no contact. Doesn't it protect yourself and heal? You got better, as often happens, But then life intervenes and now you have to have contact with your sister. I've had so many clients over the years say, oh, doctor Romeny, I fail after five years, one year, I've failed in no contacts? Like what are you talking about? Failed? There's no prize at the end of this, Like you don't get points for more days of no contact. It is a means to your healing. So in ten years though a lot of healing may have taken place, and it may very well be you see the sister. You have radical acceptance, realistic expectations. You fully disengaged, you know how to be discerning. You're not going to share too much, You're not going to go deep all the stuff you know to do, show up for your family, be present around what's happening in your family with your father, and then get out and in fact, an experience like that, it may actually teach you that you have healed, that the power your sister once had over you has really really shifted. But it's not meant to be that, Oh my gosh, i've broken no contact after ten years, this is going to be set back. First of all, you're not going to go back to ten years ago. Some people will say being back in that situation again after all those years did rattle me more than I thought. Well, then that's a wake up call. Therera be trauma informed work, whatever other kinds of daily practices you're engaging in to kind of help you south, because your sympathetic nervous system is going to be a bit of a hello, what's happening? This was a threat? Why is this back? But you hopefully, by ten years have learned some techniques to manage that. So in most cases, I think people will feel like after ten years, especially ten years later and feeling better that they're able to handle it. The entire circumstance may be a reminder that I hope it's another twenty years. I don't want to see this person again, you may find that, Okay, this isn't bothering me anymore. I don't really want to talk to this person, but I think I can handle family get togethers. But also that you give yourself permission to say, Okay, I'm going to stay in a hotel. I'm not going to stay in the family house. I'm going to come in for twenty four hours and I'm going to get out. I'm going to do what I need to do in whatever way I can, but not involve my cister. You can be discerning, you can sort of problem solve this in a way where you're not getting sort of pulled into the invalidating trauma bonded muck the way you were before. So I think that the idea that going back into contact after years of no contact is a fail is patently wrong. This was healing time you felt better. Breaking your no contact doesn't mean that she's won and you've lost. A lot of people think, OHF I break no contact, it means they've won. This isn't about winning or losing. This is about your health, your healing, and your growth. And in this next question, Colin writes, in I am going no contact with my mother, but she's really good with my kids. Even if I don't have a relationship with her, should I allow my kids to so this Again, we've sort of touched on this question before, but I don't think it can be repeated enough. No contact is not meant to be punitive. No contact is not meant to make some big point. No contact is about healing and growth. Okay, that's the core of this. So going no contact to punish a parent who actually, strangely enough, maybe a decent grandparent, but for whatever their reasons were and their narcissism was and how it showed up, was not a good parent to you, or in small doses, is able to be a solid grandparent or whatever. Take a long look at the situation, sit down and figure out number one, what's healthiest for your kids, and number two, how to construct a situation like this so it also promotes your healing and growth. Unfortunately, I think in so many ways we live in an all or nothing society. Give me a magic pill, show me a way to just make this all go away. There's no all going away. Pain is part of the human experience, and so for Colin, it's also the true north in this And I've talked about true north before. The true North in this is what's good for your kids. Your children are your responsibility, and if their children children, they don't know how to make these decisions for themselves. If you feel like a relationship with your mother is going to be a safe place for your kids, an enjoyable place for your kids, make it about your kids, not about your mother. If you feel like, well, my mom's the one who's benefiting from being with the kids, but the kids actually don't like it, well there's your answer. But if the kids really do seem to be benefiting, at least at this age and stage of their lives, from this relationship with a grandparent, then foster that. But you don't have to have a lot of contact. In fact, the kids can be the focus of the conversation. However, if your mother is being inappropriate in terms of suggesting that you're parenting wrong in any of those things, then you may want to revisit. Tighten up the kind of time together, figure out different ways to do the drop off so you can have less contact with your mother but she's still having contact with the children. But keep your lens on what's good for your children. In this situation. More than a few people who have felt very, very hurt by narcissistic parents have wanted to punish their parents, saying, I'll be darned if you're going to have any access to my kids. I fully empathize and understand that, but there's a risk you could end up having your own children saying why didn't you allow me to create a relationship there? That wasn't all your call to make And now I feel like I'm later in life and I missed out on something. So you have a lot to balance when you have children and you had narcissistic parents, you may want to make sure that the visits are cordoned off. You may not let the kids stay for a whole weekend, but it might be an evening or a few hours. You might find that as your kids get older, it's at that age where you're a narcissistic parent. So did the toxic patterns come up? There's no one size fits all here, But one of the keys is to always be very intentional and plugged into your own motivations, seeing the situation holy and then above all else, when it's your children who are involved, trying to make choices that are the best for them, not a place to avenge your own pain, but a place to facilitate growth for the next generation. These questions on no contact just wow, And I'm hoping what you've learned today is that it's not that simple. If it was as simple as just going no contact, I don't know that anyone would be bothered by narcissistic folks. But these are complicated relationships, complicated situations with people we have very complicated feelings about. So whether it's no contact, whether it's low contact, or any mix of the above, recognize that this is a dynamic and fluid situation. There are no wrong answers. But the thing that you want to remain focused on is your healing and growth. Whatever solution works today, it may change in a few years, and you have to trust that with each day you're getting stronger. Thanks again,