Actress Juliette Landau is best known for playing villainous vampire Drusilla in the classic series Buffy, the Vampire Slayer to the outside world. She had a fairytale childhood, daughter of Oscar winning actor Martin Landau and three time Emmy winning actress Barbara Bain.

Actress Juliette Landau is best known for playing villainous vampire Drusilla in the classic series Buffy, the Vampire Slayer to the outside world. She had a fairytale childhood, daughter of Oscar winning actor Martin Landau and three time Emmy winning actress Barbara Bain.

Behind the scenes, her life was anything but a fairy tale.

Behind the scenes, her life was anything but a fairy tale.

On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, Juliet reveals the painful impact of growing up with parents who are applauded by the world but invalidated and antagonized her at home. Juliet knows all too well the parallels between narcissists and vampires, who often use charm to seduce before feeding off others for their own gain, making them equally dangerous and devastating to deal with. From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I I'm Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk Productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Today, we're going to hear from Juliet Landau.

On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, Juliet reveals the painful impact of growing up with parents who are applauded by the world but invalidated and antagonized her at home. Juliet knows all too well the parallels between narcissists and vampires, who often use charm to seduce before feeding off others for their own gain, making them equally dangerous and devastating to deal with. From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I I'm Doctor Rominy and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk Productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Today, we're going to hear from Juliet Landau.

So, Juliet, you know, I.

So, Juliet, you know, I.

Consider you, you know, not only an amazing filmmaker, but I could to do you a friend. So it's really really so wonderful to have you here because you're going to give such a unique perspective and yet such a universal perspective on all of this.

Consider you, you know, not only an amazing filmmaker, but I could to do you a friend. So it's really really so wonderful to have you here because you're going to give such a unique perspective and yet such a universal perspective on all of this.

So thank you, Thank you so much.

So thank you, Thank you so much.

I am so excited to be here, and I consider you a very close friend and it's been amazing getting to know you, and I can't wait for this conversation.

I am so excited to be here, and I consider you a very close friend and it's been amazing getting to know you, and I can't wait for this conversation.

Juliette.

Juliette.

So many people know you from your role on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You played a vampire.

So many people know you from your role on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You played a vampire.

Some people have seen your film.

Some people have seen your film.

More people are about to see your film, I'm happy to say, but you know, some people have seen your film.

More people are about to see your film, I'm happy to say, but you know, some people have seen your film.

What we're going to be.

What we're going to be.

Talking about today is that you're a real case of life imitating art imitating life kind of thing, because how these themes got captured in your movie.

Talking about today is that you're a real case of life imitating art imitating life kind of thing, because how these themes got captured in your movie.

It's not just you who's been in a.

It's not just you who's been in a.

Story about a vampire and made a film about a vampire. This has lived experience for you, and I think that your story was very much fueled by this personal story. And I think what's amazing is you've been doing film festival screenings about this all over the place, and this film would spur four hour discussions afterwards. I've been on some of them, so I know. So I want to start your story from the beginning, Juliet, and let's go back to your own story. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and elements of your family dynamics.

Story about a vampire and made a film about a vampire. This has lived experience for you, and I think that your story was very much fueled by this personal story. And I think what's amazing is you've been doing film festival screenings about this all over the place, and this film would spur four hour discussions afterwards. I've been on some of them, so I know. So I want to start your story from the beginning, Juliet, and let's go back to your own story. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and elements of your family dynamics.

Yeah, absolutely, Well, I was raised by two narcissistic parents. My husband, Dever Weeks, was actually also raised by two narcissistic parents, and it's part of the reason in what you were talking about with the film, we wanted to make a movie that we hadn't seen before that really tackled the repercussions of growing up in this environment. How it affects every aspect really of your being, and if you don't address it, you're really primed to make destructive choice after destructive choice in essence is a cautionary tale, and it's really about that the feeling of how it gets into your very being and your very fibers, and you end up in a circumstance where you're so off balance a lot of the time that you'd have no sense of your own self, your life within securities. And I grew up in an environment where there was very much all of the tactics that go on in terms of suppression, scapegoating, gas lighting, all of those things, and so you start to really not trust any of your own input of I mean, if people are telling you that they love you, but they're doing behavior that is the antithesis of that, that is toxic behavior, and as a child, you can't actually process that and think, oh, this is them, it's their shortcoming. They're not able to do these things. You know, you think it's all you. You have to think.

Yeah, absolutely, Well, I was raised by two narcissistic parents. My husband, Dever Weeks, was actually also raised by two narcissistic parents, and it's part of the reason in what you were talking about with the film, we wanted to make a movie that we hadn't seen before that really tackled the repercussions of growing up in this environment. How it affects every aspect really of your being, and if you don't address it, you're really primed to make destructive choice after destructive choice in essence is a cautionary tale, and it's really about that the feeling of how it gets into your very being and your very fibers, and you end up in a circumstance where you're so off balance a lot of the time that you'd have no sense of your own self, your life within securities. And I grew up in an environment where there was very much all of the tactics that go on in terms of suppression, scapegoating, gas lighting, all of those things, and so you start to really not trust any of your own input of I mean, if people are telling you that they love you, but they're doing behavior that is the antithesis of that, that is toxic behavior, and as a child, you can't actually process that and think, oh, this is them, it's their shortcoming. They're not able to do these things. You know, you think it's all you. You have to think.

You develop.

You develop.

I think a lot of safety mechanisms to get through it that I would say later in life have not served me well. And that's one of the things that we've been wanting to talk about.

I think a lot of safety mechanisms to get through it that I would say later in life have not served me well. And that's one of the things that we've been wanting to talk about.

So you say, growing up like this, you get a distorted message of what love is, what caring is? What was the message you got in childhood of what love is?

So you say, growing up like this, you get a distorted message of what love is, what caring is? What was the message you got in childhood of what love is?

I didn't actually understand what love was at all until I met my husband, and when I experienced what it is like when you really have someone's back and they have yours, and you want one another to thrive and excel and do well and expand and grow.

I didn't actually understand what love was at all until I met my husband, and when I experienced what it is like when you really have someone's back and they have yours, and you want one another to thrive and excel and do well and expand and grow.

That was literally earth shattering to me.

That was literally earth shattering to me.

I thought that love was a very painful feeling and an unsafe feeling, and it wasn't until I experienced the complete opposite of it that it really became so paramountally clear to me.

I thought that love was a very painful feeling and an unsafe feeling, and it wasn't until I experienced the complete opposite of it that it really became so paramountally clear to me.

I guess the question the next question for me then would be how did your parents' narcissism show up in your childhood? I think it shows up universally similar for a lot of people, but there obviously is going to be a difference in every story. How did it show up in yours?

I guess the question the next question for me then would be how did your parents' narcissism show up in your childhood? I think it shows up universally similar for a lot of people, but there obviously is going to be a difference in every story. How did it show up in yours?

Well?

Well?

I think the thing for my experience was it was like this razor's edge where I became very perfectionistic, thinking that perhaps I'd receive love for doing well, and yet I wasn't allowed to shine or outshine my parents in any way. So it was this razor's edge where you had to be good enough since you were reflecting on them, but not good enough to actually be your true fulsome self because that was a threat. I mean, it's interesting because even in getting ready for this interview, and obviously in the movie that we've made, it's all such contrary action to actually talk about this stuff, to actually voice the truth.

I think the thing for my experience was it was like this razor's edge where I became very perfectionistic, thinking that perhaps I'd receive love for doing well, and yet I wasn't allowed to shine or outshine my parents in any way. So it was this razor's edge where you had to be good enough since you were reflecting on them, but not good enough to actually be your true fulsome self because that was a threat. I mean, it's interesting because even in getting ready for this interview, and obviously in the movie that we've made, it's all such contrary action to actually talk about this stuff, to actually voice the truth.

You said something though so beautifully. Actually no one has said yet on this podcast about a narcissistic childhood which I really appreciate, which is you had to be good enough because if you weren't then that didn't reflect well on them. But if you were too good, then you had to be brought down so you didn't outshine them. That's such an important dynamic, and I think that obviously in a small child that may not be as a pronounced because a small child couldn't really outshine their parents, but they certainly could get a lot of attention or something like that. And certainly as you get older. I think of a narcissistic mother and her emerging adolescent's daughter. Obviously that youthfulness that that mother can't go backwards in time. There's a resentment that can really grow up. Or a son who may be showing prowess in a way that the father once had that you have to find that absolute middle ground, and nobody's really sort of spoken of that as clearly, So I really appreciate you framing it that way.

You said something though so beautifully. Actually no one has said yet on this podcast about a narcissistic childhood which I really appreciate, which is you had to be good enough because if you weren't then that didn't reflect well on them. But if you were too good, then you had to be brought down so you didn't outshine them. That's such an important dynamic, and I think that obviously in a small child that may not be as a pronounced because a small child couldn't really outshine their parents, but they certainly could get a lot of attention or something like that. And certainly as you get older. I think of a narcissistic mother and her emerging adolescent's daughter. Obviously that youthfulness that that mother can't go backwards in time. There's a resentment that can really grow up. Or a son who may be showing prowess in a way that the father once had that you have to find that absolute middle ground, and nobody's really sort of spoken of that as clearly, So I really appreciate you framing it that way.

I also think that there's something, you know, all children, all people, have an inherent sort of if you're not a person of these kinds of characteristics, if you're not a narcissistic person, there's actually an inherent sort of light and truthfulness in children. And I think that that in itself is threatening to people like this because they sort of work in the darkness, you know, they work in the shop, and they work very methodically. It's you know, it's such a rigged game because and especially as a child, you have no idea about what rules you're playing. But it was a methodical kind of thing, like whatever you're given a compliment, you're also given a slap.

I also think that there's something, you know, all children, all people, have an inherent sort of if you're not a person of these kinds of characteristics, if you're not a narcissistic person, there's actually an inherent sort of light and truthfulness in children. And I think that that in itself is threatening to people like this because they sort of work in the darkness, you know, they work in the shop, and they work very methodically. It's you know, it's such a rigged game because and especially as a child, you have no idea about what rules you're playing. But it was a methodical kind of thing, like whatever you're given a compliment, you're also given a slap.

Like everything is.

Like everything is.

Literally about keeping that structure of you being beneath them in some sort of way. So I think that children inherently have a sort of joy and openness, a light, and I think that's threatening.

Literally about keeping that structure of you being beneath them in some sort of way. So I think that children inherently have a sort of joy and openness, a light, and I think that's threatening.

It absolutely can be. And I think that what you said, you get the compliment with the slap. You know, in essence that conditioning for a child that you could be told something good and it would hurt you. Can you imagine now you go into adulthood, if somebody compliments you, you're going to be more likely to WinCE and pull away than you would be to lean into it. And this is where many survivors of parental narcissistic abuse will find themselves almost sort of stuck in this mediocrity that's definitely under what they could have been because that program fear of again, the slap that comes with success. Their body holds that fear and so they live with that fear. And it sounds like that that was something that really plagued you until you found And one of the metaphors of your film was that love was the only thing that could conquer evil until you found true love, that you finally were able to push back on these patterns within yourself.

It absolutely can be. And I think that what you said, you get the compliment with the slap. You know, in essence that conditioning for a child that you could be told something good and it would hurt you. Can you imagine now you go into adulthood, if somebody compliments you, you're going to be more likely to WinCE and pull away than you would be to lean into it. And this is where many survivors of parental narcissistic abuse will find themselves almost sort of stuck in this mediocrity that's definitely under what they could have been because that program fear of again, the slap that comes with success. Their body holds that fear and so they live with that fear. And it sounds like that that was something that really plagued you until you found And one of the metaphors of your film was that love was the only thing that could conquer evil until you found true love, that you finally were able to push back on these patterns within yourself.

I personally feel like for me, my life bloomed hugely, as did my husband's when we decided to have no contact with our families. And I understand that that's not an option for everyone. Some people have children with this kind of person, and even if they're separated or divorced, they can't disengaged, or it's a family member that they don't want to or can't distance from.

I personally feel like for me, my life bloomed hugely, as did my husband's when we decided to have no contact with our families. And I understand that that's not an option for everyone. Some people have children with this kind of person, and even if they're separated or divorced, they can't disengaged, or it's a family member that they don't want to or can't distance from.

But you know, we.

But you know, we.

Should be able to talk about this as a healthy and viable option as well and not be sort of told how dare you for doing that? And I do know that for both of us, our lives just grew and grew, you know, And in that way, it's sort of that old parable about the wolves, like which one you're feeding the positive stuff or the negative. I personally feel like going toward evil or trying to engage with people like this malignant narcissists is not healthy or worth the time. If you are able to completely stay away from it, It's been for both of us undeniably a healthier thing.

Should be able to talk about this as a healthy and viable option as well and not be sort of told how dare you for doing that? And I do know that for both of us, our lives just grew and grew, you know, And in that way, it's sort of that old parable about the wolves, like which one you're feeding the positive stuff or the negative. I personally feel like going toward evil or trying to engage with people like this malignant narcissists is not healthy or worth the time. If you are able to completely stay away from it, It's been for both of us undeniably a healthier thing.

So interesting how you put it, And I don't disagree with you, Juliette, that no contact is often viewed I don't know. I don't want to say suspiciously, but with a little bit of side eye. You know, this idea of somehow familial estrangement is this terrible thing that must always be addressed. Yeah, I hear the disclaimer. I make it all the time about most people can't go no contact, but I will be frank with you. I remember seeing some data. There's a group I work with in Israel that has sort of looked at some of the data around narcissistic abuse, and one thing they found was that when people going through narcissistic abuse, we're asked to say what works best to help them heal. Psychotherapy came out number one, but number two is no contact.

So interesting how you put it, And I don't disagree with you, Juliette, that no contact is often viewed I don't know. I don't want to say suspiciously, but with a little bit of side eye. You know, this idea of somehow familial estrangement is this terrible thing that must always be addressed. Yeah, I hear the disclaimer. I make it all the time about most people can't go no contact, but I will be frank with you. I remember seeing some data. There's a group I work with in Israel that has sort of looked at some of the data around narcissistic abuse, and one thing they found was that when people going through narcissistic abuse, we're asked to say what works best to help them heal. Psychotherapy came out number one, but number two is no contact.

So it works.

So it works.

I'm telling you as a therapist who's worked with so many people who've gone through this, no contact absolutely works because in a since it's almost like you think of it as a toxin, and let's say a toxin, if you breathe it in, it'll make you sick. Obviously, not breathing it in is going to be good for you. So I do think that people have to feel supported when they decide I am going to go no contact. Ay is a therapist deeply supportive of it. I think where some people struggle is like they'll sometimes say I slipped and I contacted, And I always want to remove the shame from that because things happen, right, family members get sick, funerals happen. Whatever I said, this isn't sobriety. It's not like you're getting dinged for having contact, but when you have that contact, to have the radical acceptance, realistic expectations, all of that, but to go no contact it does work. Now, there is an element of your story that I think you know, some listeners may know, many may not, is that you grew up in a famous family and that changed the game quite a bit.

I'm telling you as a therapist who's worked with so many people who've gone through this, no contact absolutely works because in a since it's almost like you think of it as a toxin, and let's say a toxin, if you breathe it in, it'll make you sick. Obviously, not breathing it in is going to be good for you. So I do think that people have to feel supported when they decide I am going to go no contact. Ay is a therapist deeply supportive of it. I think where some people struggle is like they'll sometimes say I slipped and I contacted, And I always want to remove the shame from that because things happen, right, family members get sick, funerals happen. Whatever I said, this isn't sobriety. It's not like you're getting dinged for having contact, but when you have that contact, to have the radical acceptance, realistic expectations, all of that, but to go no contact it does work. Now, there is an element of your story that I think you know, some listeners may know, many may not, is that you grew up in a famous family and that changed the game quite a bit.

I mean, that changed the rules. What's your take on that.

I mean, that changed the rules. What's your take on that.

It almost is like a magnifying lens with what everybody that grows up in a narcissistic family dynamic experiences. There's a disparity between what is publicly presented and what goes on behind closed doors. So I think the difference really is that the net of that is wider, So the projection that's going out into the world is a.

It almost is like a magnifying lens with what everybody that grows up in a narcissistic family dynamic experiences. There's a disparity between what is publicly presented and what goes on behind closed doors. So I think the difference really is that the net of that is wider, So the projection that's going out into the world is a.

Wider group of people that.

Wider group of people that.

Are seeing what my parents wanted to be projected and versus the private life. So I think that the difference is that people have a relationship potentially to my parents because they like them on a TV show or they like them in a movie. And I think one of the things that's important for us to remember is that things can coexist. So you can be a fan of someone's work and also know that they're not a good human being, and so one that you know isn't necessarily related to the other. Many people love Norman Mahler's books he stabbed his wife at a party. Both things coexist. You can think that the book is of interest and know that the man was not a person. So I think that's really the difference. Other than that, I think all of the experience in the sort of tactics are very very much the same. And I do love that word you used earlier, of radical acceptance, because I just think that's those words. I think it's such a real thing. Looking at the truth is exceedingly painful. I mean, I feel like you, I went, we both my husband, I know, went through a mourning process really for the childhood that you never had. But it's so much better to look with radical acceptance and truth of what the reality was to be able to move on from it than obscuring the truth.

Are seeing what my parents wanted to be projected and versus the private life. So I think that the difference is that people have a relationship potentially to my parents because they like them on a TV show or they like them in a movie. And I think one of the things that's important for us to remember is that things can coexist. So you can be a fan of someone's work and also know that they're not a good human being, and so one that you know isn't necessarily related to the other. Many people love Norman Mahler's books he stabbed his wife at a party. Both things coexist. You can think that the book is of interest and know that the man was not a person. So I think that's really the difference. Other than that, I think all of the experience in the sort of tactics are very very much the same. And I do love that word you used earlier, of radical acceptance, because I just think that's those words. I think it's such a real thing. Looking at the truth is exceedingly painful. I mean, I feel like you, I went, we both my husband, I know, went through a mourning process really for the childhood that you never had. But it's so much better to look with radical acceptance and truth of what the reality was to be able to move on from it than obscuring the truth.

You know, absolutely, And I would say, you know the way you grew up again famous parents, iconically famous parents, that you in essence experienced what I'm going to call societal gas slighting, and if anything, and be shamed for having had your experience.

You know, absolutely, And I would say, you know the way you grew up again famous parents, iconically famous parents, that you in essence experienced what I'm going to call societal gas slighting, and if anything, and be shamed for having had your experience.

Well, this has got to be a Juliette problem because.

Well, this has got to be a Juliette problem because.

They're, like you said, all these things that people project onto them, onto their characters, all of that that I would say, many many people forget. Even what you had was very unique. But even if your your father's the pastor and the local parish and every beloved pastor, the beloved little coach, see the principal at the school, whatever it is in a small town, everyone saying what a great person. You're so lucky this person and this great teacher of the years, your mom or you know that pastors your dad and that person that child. Then it multiplies what you were talking about before in terms of those survival behaviors, like this has got to be my fault because everybody loves them, and they're famous, and people pay all this money to see their movies, and you know, I mean, I remember when I originally learned of your story and we talked more, I.

They're, like you said, all these things that people project onto them, onto their characters, all of that that I would say, many many people forget. Even what you had was very unique. But even if your your father's the pastor and the local parish and every beloved pastor, the beloved little coach, see the principal at the school, whatever it is in a small town, everyone saying what a great person. You're so lucky this person and this great teacher of the years, your mom or you know that pastors your dad and that person that child. Then it multiplies what you were talking about before in terms of those survival behaviors, like this has got to be my fault because everybody loves them, and they're famous, and people pay all this money to see their movies, and you know, I mean, I remember when I originally learned of your story and we talked more, I.

Thought, how does somebody survive this?

Thought, how does somebody survive this?

You had this story where nobody would have believed you because they had to have a They had to have a they had to be able to hold these icons up to what they needed them to be. So it was easier to criticize you, Juliette, than it was to say, wow, maybe these people were just really cruel to their child and did tremendous harm to her. So I think that there's a unique form of gaslighting you experience that most of us would never understand it on the scale you experienced it.

You had this story where nobody would have believed you because they had to have a They had to have a they had to be able to hold these icons up to what they needed them to be. So it was easier to criticize you, Juliette, than it was to say, wow, maybe these people were just really cruel to their child and did tremendous harm to her. So I think that there's a unique form of gaslighting you experience that most of us would never understand it on the scale you experienced it.

I think it's interesting what you were talking about, because I was thinking right when you were saying that about the pastor or some people in the church. And I think what's interesting with all of those scenarios is that people develop, like part of how they develop their public persona is really i think, equally.

I think it's interesting what you were talking about, because I was thinking right when you were saying that about the pastor or some people in the church. And I think what's interesting with all of those scenarios is that people develop, like part of how they develop their public persona is really i think, equally.

To hide the private behaviors.

To hide the private behaviors.

That are going on and to like it's almost like this this balance of the scale, so you know, they go out of their way to be exceedingly nice to people that they don't have close intimate relationships with and sort.

That are going on and to like it's almost like this this balance of the scale, so you know, they go out of their way to be exceedingly nice to people that they don't have close intimate relationships with and sort.

Of further that public narrative.

Of further that public narrative.

And you know, it's interesting because I agree with you that there's such a thing where it's like also that that sort of societal pressure of like how dare you talk about this? And luckily that's changing. The thing that I found really interesting when we started screening the film is how many people actually came forward to me and said that they two things happened. One is either someone said, you know, oh, I had a wonderful experience where I met your dad in a supermarket. He talked to me for four hours, and I was like, that's I'm wonderful. I'm so glad you had that great experience with him. You know, he was furthering that sort of perception, you know, in that engagement, and I truly was glad that they had a wonderful encounter with either my mother or my father. What I found, though, is that how many people have said that they actually suspected that, Like many people that had worked with my parents came forward and said to me, like I sort of knew that this was their natures, and I've had some experiences with them that that furthered that. I also remember that a family friend I said something about, you know, it wasn't it something about initially be before he saw the film, I'm not sure this will be your cup of tea, and whether you know, what was on the inside was very different than the outside, he said, whoever said the outside of.

And you know, it's interesting because I agree with you that there's such a thing where it's like also that that sort of societal pressure of like how dare you talk about this? And luckily that's changing. The thing that I found really interesting when we started screening the film is how many people actually came forward to me and said that they two things happened. One is either someone said, you know, oh, I had a wonderful experience where I met your dad in a supermarket. He talked to me for four hours, and I was like, that's I'm wonderful. I'm so glad you had that great experience with him. You know, he was furthering that sort of perception, you know, in that engagement, and I truly was glad that they had a wonderful encounter with either my mother or my father. What I found, though, is that how many people have said that they actually suspected that, Like many people that had worked with my parents came forward and said to me, like I sort of knew that this was their natures, and I've had some experiences with them that that furthered that. I also remember that a family friend I said something about, you know, it wasn't it something about initially be before he saw the film, I'm not sure this will be your cup of tea, and whether you know, what was on the inside was very different than the outside, he said, whoever said the outside of.

Your family looks so great?

Your family looks so great?

So it was actually interesting in opening up the discussion. What got reflected back at me wasn't as much as I expected to be.

So it was actually interesting in opening up the discussion. What got reflected back at me wasn't as much as I expected to be.

Only what you're talking about.

Only what you're talking about.

You know what, though, that in its fashion then is a strange form of blessing, because I do think many people grow up in these homes come out of them, and nobody ever says that to them. And then you had both sides of the scale. You had not only sort of this nightmarish experience of probably of what you were going through and thinking, well, no one's going to believe me. They're famous, they're powerful, but then as time went on, people actually shedding some light on it, and that helps.

You know what, though, that in its fashion then is a strange form of blessing, because I do think many people grow up in these homes come out of them, and nobody ever says that to them. And then you had both sides of the scale. You had not only sort of this nightmarish experience of probably of what you were going through and thinking, well, no one's going to believe me. They're famous, they're powerful, but then as time went on, people actually shedding some light on it, and that helps.

Yeah, And you know what, further to that point, I think one of the things for my husband, Devyl and I there was something about each of us witnessing the other's family and corroborating what we saw. I mean, I remember with dev he kept telling me story after story after story about his father that were really heinous, disturbing, awful stories, toxic, terrible stories. And every time he'd tell me a story, he would say, but he's so sweet. Oh, and then he'd tell me another terrible story and he said, but he's so sweet. And I actually met his dad and we went for a walk in the park and he started telling me yet another horrendous story. And he said, he's so sweet. And I said, you know all the stories that you've told me, And in meeting him, I don't see a sweet man. Do you have some stories that are sweet? And he's stopped and he was thinking, and he was thinking and he said, I I don't.

Yeah, And you know what, further to that point, I think one of the things for my husband, Devyl and I there was something about each of us witnessing the other's family and corroborating what we saw. I mean, I remember with dev he kept telling me story after story after story about his father that were really heinous, disturbing, awful stories, toxic, terrible stories. And every time he'd tell me a story, he would say, but he's so sweet. Oh, and then he'd tell me another terrible story and he said, but he's so sweet. And I actually met his dad and we went for a walk in the park and he started telling me yet another horrendous story. And he said, he's so sweet. And I said, you know all the stories that you've told me, And in meeting him, I don't see a sweet man. Do you have some stories that are sweet? And he's stopped and he was thinking, and he was thinking and he said, I I don't.

The trauma bonded language gets so embedded in to how we speak about invalidating people in our lives that it becomes reflexive. Juliette, describing her husband's tendency to always end horrific stories about his father with but he's sweet, is actually pretty common. It's that small child that never quite goes out of us, and that had to keep justifying bad parental behavior for survival reasons. However, it also results in us maintaining a distorted representation in our mind. The cognitive dissonance makes this so difficult because so many inconsistent things pile up. I have a father. My father was cruel. Sometimes he did nice things. When we can see it clearly, it can feel uncomfortable, but at least it's more honest.

The trauma bonded language gets so embedded in to how we speak about invalidating people in our lives that it becomes reflexive. Juliette, describing her husband's tendency to always end horrific stories about his father with but he's sweet, is actually pretty common. It's that small child that never quite goes out of us, and that had to keep justifying bad parental behavior for survival reasons. However, it also results in us maintaining a distorted representation in our mind. The cognitive dissonance makes this so difficult because so many inconsistent things pile up. I have a father. My father was cruel. Sometimes he did nice things. When we can see it clearly, it can feel uncomfortable, but at least it's more honest.

And I think that moment for him was a real like wait a minute, he's not sweet, I'm justifying and the same thing. I remember we had a holiday. I looked over at dev and the expression on his face was how I felt growing up like he looked so I used to do this thing I called clicking out, and he looked completely numb, overwhelmed, miserable. I saw his face and I was like, oh my god, that's like a mirror of how I felt my whole childhood. And again it was that corroboration of an outside witness.

And I think that moment for him was a real like wait a minute, he's not sweet, I'm justifying and the same thing. I remember we had a holiday. I looked over at dev and the expression on his face was how I felt growing up like he looked so I used to do this thing I called clicking out, and he looked completely numb, overwhelmed, miserable. I saw his face and I was like, oh my god, that's like a mirror of how I felt my whole childhood. And again it was that corroboration of an outside witness.

And I think.

And I think.

Because we were already starting the work of looking at what our backgrounds were and sort of experiencing this connection that we'd never had before.

Because we were already starting the work of looking at what our backgrounds were and sort of experiencing this connection that we'd never had before.

What Juliet is calling clicking out, this sort of numbed and overwhelmed expression many people in antagonistic and narcissistic relationships have is almost like a low grade dissociation where a person has to almost distance from themselves and from situation because it is so psychologically taxing. For people who can't escape these relationships, this clicking out can mean clicking out of their lives, being distracted, not being present, and being detached.

What Juliet is calling clicking out, this sort of numbed and overwhelmed expression many people in antagonistic and narcissistic relationships have is almost like a low grade dissociation where a person has to almost distance from themselves and from situation because it is so psychologically taxing. For people who can't escape these relationships, this clicking out can mean clicking out of their lives, being distracted, not being present, and being detached.

We'd had other relationships, but we never had that real true love and support because we were not picking people of that ilk. We were primed to pick other people for a while that were similar to our environments that we were raised in. And I think that the validation of that with one another, and it's one of the things that we've had with the movie. The movie is called A Place among the Dead and we have this amazing community that has built up around the film called they've named themselves the Place among the dead Heads, like the Grateful Dead. So many people have said the movie has changed their lives, which is humbling, and they have literally we are watching this group of people, which is probably now about two hundred hardcore a Place among the Deadheads, whose lives are blooming and expanding. One gal was actually emailing today who's literally like moved out of her toxic house with her parents, gotten a job in the field she always wanted to, just got a promotion, has been seeing a therapist that is amazing and understands this like it's and just seeing this community people are creating art and their music and sharing them sharing it and each time, like to just see the growth that's happening has been so amazing. I think part of it is that validation of other people going I get this, I see it. And you know, the thing about narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse is it's not physically manifested. So that's one of the things is that when other people are like, no, no, I understand this and I see it, because sometimes people find it easier to understand physical bruises than they do the emotional toll that gets taken.

We'd had other relationships, but we never had that real true love and support because we were not picking people of that ilk. We were primed to pick other people for a while that were similar to our environments that we were raised in. And I think that the validation of that with one another, and it's one of the things that we've had with the movie. The movie is called A Place among the Dead and we have this amazing community that has built up around the film called they've named themselves the Place among the dead Heads, like the Grateful Dead. So many people have said the movie has changed their lives, which is humbling, and they have literally we are watching this group of people, which is probably now about two hundred hardcore a Place among the Deadheads, whose lives are blooming and expanding. One gal was actually emailing today who's literally like moved out of her toxic house with her parents, gotten a job in the field she always wanted to, just got a promotion, has been seeing a therapist that is amazing and understands this like it's and just seeing this community people are creating art and their music and sharing them sharing it and each time, like to just see the growth that's happening has been so amazing. I think part of it is that validation of other people going I get this, I see it. And you know, the thing about narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse is it's not physically manifested. So that's one of the things is that when other people are like, no, no, I understand this and I see it, because sometimes people find it easier to understand physical bruises than they do the emotional toll that gets taken.

Yes, because that idea of corroboration, of validation, I mean, that's the idea of somebody got into good therapy. That's somebody saying, yeah, this is really happening, this is not you. And just simply even that moment of validation is where I've seen the beginning of real healing from any clients. At what point, Juliette, did you have this, I don't know, this awareness, this framework that your parents were narcissistic. When did that come to you and how did that come to you?

Yes, because that idea of corroboration, of validation, I mean, that's the idea of somebody got into good therapy. That's somebody saying, yeah, this is really happening, this is not you. And just simply even that moment of validation is where I've seen the beginning of real healing from any clients. At what point, Juliette, did you have this, I don't know, this awareness, this framework that your parents were narcissistic. When did that come to you and how did that come to you?

Well? I didn't for a long long time. And I think what happened is I think it was right just before developing the idea to do the movie, and we were sort of talking about that we had come to a place.

Well? I didn't for a long long time. And I think what happened is I think it was right just before developing the idea to do the movie, and we were sort of talking about that we had come to a place.

In ourselves truly where.

In ourselves truly where.

We weren't really thinking about our families of origin anymore much. We had built our own family with each other and with our friends. And that's one other thing I wanted to mention is, as you know, started becoming aware of this, you know, you start noticing other people in your life that ultimately won swell with of us had no contact with our with our families. It was, you know, some of the people that we had thought were friends, we realized, oh, this is the same dynamics. It's literally that same thing is going on. So there was a certain sort of Okay, those aren't the people I want we want to surround ourselves with. So you know, we've now created this incredible group of friends. And we had a therapist that once said, you know, blood isn't always thicker than water.

We weren't really thinking about our families of origin anymore much. We had built our own family with each other and with our friends. And that's one other thing I wanted to mention is, as you know, started becoming aware of this, you know, you start noticing other people in your life that ultimately won swell with of us had no contact with our with our families. It was, you know, some of the people that we had thought were friends, we realized, oh, this is the same dynamics. It's literally that same thing is going on. So there was a certain sort of Okay, those aren't the people I want we want to surround ourselves with. So you know, we've now created this incredible group of friends. And we had a therapist that once said, you know, blood isn't always thicker than water.

Sometimes it's just stickier.

Sometimes it's just stickier.

Great.

Great.

I had never heard this adage of blood not always being thicker than water and sometimes it's just stickier. I mean, that was some fire from their therapist. We make a lot, often too many allowances for bad behaviors within family systems, and familial enablers can double down on toxic patterns in a family. This stickiness of this blood makes setting boundaries all but impossible. And I cannot wait to share this new take on the Blood is Thicker than Water with the survivors that I work with.

I had never heard this adage of blood not always being thicker than water and sometimes it's just stickier. I mean, that was some fire from their therapist. We make a lot, often too many allowances for bad behaviors within family systems, and familial enablers can double down on toxic patterns in a family. This stickiness of this blood makes setting boundaries all but impossible. And I cannot wait to share this new take on the Blood is Thicker than Water with the survivors that I work with.

And so I think that at that moment when we started really looking at it in therapy, we had an incredible therapist and he really did understand all of this, and he had given us a book called People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck, and the movie is largely based on that book. The case studies and his definition of evil malignant narcissism so profound and so powerful, and I related so strongly to so many of the case studies in there, and was like, that's me, that's my experience, that's my experience. And so I think that moment of that, and I read a book called The Fantasy Bond that he had suggested as well, which is all about the idea that you can't think it's your parents, so you basically take it all on yourself. And the other thing about growing up and this kind of vironment is that it's rife with fear and anxiety. Because I know you talk about this, but at the root of all narcissistic people is a lot of insecurity and also they have a constant fear of exposure to the outside world, but also to themselves because they're busy sort of obfuscating the truth from themselves of who they truly are. So you grow up in such a sort of fearful environment and you take a lot of that stuff in. So I think it was probably a few years before we started sort of developing the idea for the movie, was in reading those books and talking with our therapists and it just being like, Aha, yes, this is exactly what we grew up in. I mean, it's like when I've read a number of your books, Dr Romini, and there's so much of it.

And so I think that at that moment when we started really looking at it in therapy, we had an incredible therapist and he really did understand all of this, and he had given us a book called People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck, and the movie is largely based on that book. The case studies and his definition of evil malignant narcissism so profound and so powerful, and I related so strongly to so many of the case studies in there, and was like, that's me, that's my experience, that's my experience. And so I think that moment of that, and I read a book called The Fantasy Bond that he had suggested as well, which is all about the idea that you can't think it's your parents, so you basically take it all on yourself. And the other thing about growing up and this kind of vironment is that it's rife with fear and anxiety. Because I know you talk about this, but at the root of all narcissistic people is a lot of insecurity and also they have a constant fear of exposure to the outside world, but also to themselves because they're busy sort of obfuscating the truth from themselves of who they truly are. So you grow up in such a sort of fearful environment and you take a lot of that stuff in. So I think it was probably a few years before we started sort of developing the idea for the movie, was in reading those books and talking with our therapists and it just being like, Aha, yes, this is exactly what we grew up in. I mean, it's like when I've read a number of your books, Dr Romini, and there's so much of it.

Where you're just like check check, check, check check.

Where you're just like check check, check, check check.

You know everything that you say in terms of looking out for and everything, and you're just like, yes, I've experienced that.

You know everything that you say in terms of looking out for and everything, and you're just like, yes, I've experienced that.

Yes, I've experienced that. Yes, I experienced that.

Yes, I've experienced that. Yes, I experienced that.

You know, and I think that that's why you know the books and that you've written in this that you're doing like it's so helpful, and the videos that you put out on YouTube, and we've done it through art and entertainment. There's so many people that have either said, oh, I knew this was going on in my life and it's so amazing to see it and experience in.

You know, and I think that that's why you know the books and that you've written in this that you're doing like it's so helpful, and the videos that you put out on YouTube, and we've done it through art and entertainment. There's so many people that have either said, oh, I knew this was going on in my life and it's so amazing to see it and experience in.

This in this visceral way.

This in this visceral way.

But there's so many people who said, oh my god, my life clicked the gal I was talking about earlier, when our dead had that I was corresponding.

But there's so many people who said, oh my god, my life clicked the gal I was talking about earlier, when our dead had that I was corresponding.

With today earlier today.

With today earlier today.

She literally is like I had no idea and then I saw the movie and my life went boom, Like it clicked into place. And it couldn't be more thankful, because I think I would have ended up, you know, committing suicide literally like she was in such a toxic, toxic environment.

She literally is like I had no idea and then I saw the movie and my life went boom, Like it clicked into place. And it couldn't be more thankful, because I think I would have ended up, you know, committing suicide literally like she was in such a toxic, toxic environment.

Well, it's interesting to me you figured it out later in your life. I mean later in your life relatively speaking, meaning that was only in the last few years until then, until you had that framework, What did you think what was happening with you and your parents and that relationship, Like, how did you make sense of it?

Well, it's interesting to me you figured it out later in your life. I mean later in your life relatively speaking, meaning that was only in the last few years until then, until you had that framework, What did you think what was happening with you and your parents and that relationship, Like, how did you make sense of it?

I thought, first of all that my mother was my best friend, and I really always knew in myself in terms of I knew something wasn't right as a kid. If I even think of my childhood, I never can think of it without this pervasive sense of really depression and nauseousness. I knew I was not in a safe environment. I knew it, but I had to keep that truth for myself. It was way too scary to look at. And I think it really was having for me having like a partner, not being feeling so alone in the world where I felt the safety to really take off the blinders and look at it. But in myself, I really I knew it. I was tap dancing away from it.

I thought, first of all that my mother was my best friend, and I really always knew in myself in terms of I knew something wasn't right as a kid. If I even think of my childhood, I never can think of it without this pervasive sense of really depression and nauseousness. I knew I was not in a safe environment. I knew it, but I had to keep that truth for myself. It was way too scary to look at. And I think it really was having for me having like a partner, not being feeling so alone in the world where I felt the safety to really take off the blinders and look at it. But in myself, I really I knew it. I was tap dancing away from it.

And if that makes sense, Oh.

And if that makes sense, Oh.

It absolutely does make sense.

It absolutely does make sense.

And I think that you know, even as you put it, you felt it like you thought about my childhood. It felt depression. It's interesting to me you felt nausea, because to me, that's almost like being in such a toxic environment made you sick. My conversation with Juliet will continue after this break. So you grew up like this, You felt it almost in your body that something wasn't right, But you came through adolescens and you actually went into the entertainment industry, which is one of the most validating industries a person could go into, especially as a performer. How did how you grew up affect the early evolution not only of your career but even of your adult relationships.

And I think that you know, even as you put it, you felt it like you thought about my childhood. It felt depression. It's interesting to me you felt nausea, because to me, that's almost like being in such a toxic environment made you sick. My conversation with Juliet will continue after this break. So you grew up like this, You felt it almost in your body that something wasn't right, But you came through adolescens and you actually went into the entertainment industry, which is one of the most validating industries a person could go into, especially as a performer. How did how you grew up affect the early evolution not only of your career but even of your adult relationships.

Well, I think it affected a lot of things in that for a long time I was not picking healthy people to be in relationship with.

Well, I think it affected a lot of things in that for a long time I was not picking healthy people to be in relationship with.

One of the things that we look at in the film is that.

One of the things that we look at in the film is that.

Idea of you know, replaying the unwinnable parent or the past trauma in life, and how we do that over and over and over, hoping for a different outcome. But in fact, when you do that, you don't get a different outcome. It actually just gets worse and worse and worse. We've been exploring that idea in our movie, and I think it speak because we had the experience of doing that. It's interesting because yes, the entertainment industry is obviously has a lot of rejection, is invalidating, as you say, and obviously is also rife with narcissism. And now it's an exciting thing I'm doing sort of contrary.

Idea of you know, replaying the unwinnable parent or the past trauma in life, and how we do that over and over and over, hoping for a different outcome. But in fact, when you do that, you don't get a different outcome. It actually just gets worse and worse and worse. We've been exploring that idea in our movie, and I think it speak because we had the experience of doing that. It's interesting because yes, the entertainment industry is obviously has a lot of rejection, is invalidating, as you say, and obviously is also rife with narcissism. And now it's an exciting thing I'm doing sort of contrary.

Action to what I was raised to do.

Action to what I was raised to do.

So even sitting here and having this conversation with you so publicly about this making a movie, I mean, you know, neither dev nor we were told we couldn't really do anything. So the fact that we had one hundred and fifty people, you know, crew working for us, and we helmed a movie and I directed it and co wrote it, co produced it, I'm starring in it. We got incredible actors to come on board. Gary Oldman, Ron Pearlman, Robert Patrick, Lance Henrickson, best selling author Anne Rice appearing for the only time in a scripted movie, all these people that in of itself is contrary action, and then the actual subject matter of it to actually go like take that subject matter head on and say, you know, it's worth it. This mission is sort of bigger than me and my story, and I want to do it.

So even sitting here and having this conversation with you so publicly about this making a movie, I mean, you know, neither dev nor we were told we couldn't really do anything. So the fact that we had one hundred and fifty people, you know, crew working for us, and we helmed a movie and I directed it and co wrote it, co produced it, I'm starring in it. We got incredible actors to come on board. Gary Oldman, Ron Pearlman, Robert Patrick, Lance Henrickson, best selling author Anne Rice appearing for the only time in a scripted movie, all these people that in of itself is contrary action, and then the actual subject matter of it to actually go like take that subject matter head on and say, you know, it's worth it. This mission is sort of bigger than me and my story, and I want to do it.

Yeah, I mean, I think I love that concept of contrary action. I think one of the challenges or when it comes to contrary action, I'm going to do the opposite of what I was told I could or couldn't do, is that a lot of people feel like an imposter.

Yeah, I mean, I think I love that concept of contrary action. I think one of the challenges or when it comes to contrary action, I'm going to do the opposite of what I was told I could or couldn't do, is that a lot of people feel like an imposter.

Did you ever feel like that when you were absolutely?

Did you ever feel like that when you were absolutely?

Yeah, so I'm absolutely That's the challenge, and that's another contrary action.

Yeah, so I'm absolutely That's the challenge, and that's another contrary action.

Right. We make these agreements with our parents, and these are spoken, and some of them are tacitly unspoken, but these agreements really become the thoughts in our minds and the mantras that we live by, which inform our choices and can lead to destruction. And in the movie, my character is making destructive choice after destructive choice. Hopefully I'm not doing that in life anymore. But as we've been talking about, I was for a really long time, and I was ignoring all the red flags and doggedly sort of going forward and listening to those thoughts and those voices. And the whole point is that, you know, as adults, we can break those agreements. I think it's important also to think about the fact that these poisonous seeds can be planted, you know, obviously by parents and family members, but also in love relationships or at school by teachers and peers, and you know, once they're planted, they just fester and fester and grow. So it's really about that contrary, you know, action and changing some of that thinking that goes on, which obviously always will rear its.

Right. We make these agreements with our parents, and these are spoken, and some of them are tacitly unspoken, but these agreements really become the thoughts in our minds and the mantras that we live by, which inform our choices and can lead to destruction. And in the movie, my character is making destructive choice after destructive choice. Hopefully I'm not doing that in life anymore. But as we've been talking about, I was for a really long time, and I was ignoring all the red flags and doggedly sort of going forward and listening to those thoughts and those voices. And the whole point is that, you know, as adults, we can break those agreements. I think it's important also to think about the fact that these poisonous seeds can be planted, you know, obviously by parents and family members, but also in love relationships or at school by teachers and peers, and you know, once they're planted, they just fester and fester and grow. So it's really about that contrary, you know, action and changing some of that thinking that goes on, which obviously always will rear its.

Head absolutely, and I think, you know, a lot of what you're talking about has been framed. If we look at doctor Kristen Nef's work on self compassion, she calls it the inner critic, you know, and it goes beyond. I mean, the inner critic is a pretty beastly vampire like quality, and a person who is surviving from narcissistic abuse, especially childhood narcissistic abuse, But one thing that Nef and others who have done work on this idea of the inner critic point out is that once we can recognize that our inner critic isn't just there to torment us, but actually exists to keep us safe, we may be able to say, Okay, inner critic, I see what you're doing on thanks, let's dial that back.

Head absolutely, and I think, you know, a lot of what you're talking about has been framed. If we look at doctor Kristen Nef's work on self compassion, she calls it the inner critic, you know, and it goes beyond. I mean, the inner critic is a pretty beastly vampire like quality, and a person who is surviving from narcissistic abuse, especially childhood narcissistic abuse, But one thing that Nef and others who have done work on this idea of the inner critic point out is that once we can recognize that our inner critic isn't just there to torment us, but actually exists to keep us safe, we may be able to say, Okay, inner critic, I see what you're doing on thanks, let's dial that back.

Okay.

Okay.

And you know, but it was really for the child to feel like when it comes out of childhood. It was this idea that if I'm the bad one, then they're not the bad one. And when you can see the inner critic for what it was trying to do for you, all of a sudden, we can become not only compassionate towards our inner critic, but compassionate to ourselves, which is such a crucial element of healing from narcissistic abuse. You had played a vampire in a very successful television show, Drusilla in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In doing that, you kind of obviously were very immersed in the vampire world.

And you know, but it was really for the child to feel like when it comes out of childhood. It was this idea that if I'm the bad one, then they're not the bad one. And when you can see the inner critic for what it was trying to do for you, all of a sudden, we can become not only compassionate towards our inner critic, but compassionate to ourselves, which is such a crucial element of healing from narcissistic abuse. You had played a vampire in a very successful television show, Drusilla in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In doing that, you kind of obviously were very immersed in the vampire world.

That's where there was a lot.

That's where there was a lot.

Of time spent in that In playing that role, did that give you any insight did you connect the dots basically by playing Drusilla and Buffy. Did you ever connect the dots between vampires and what was happening in my family and did all of that ever come through for you. I'm just curious because it seems like that was the birth of an idea that became a place among the dead.

Of time spent in that In playing that role, did that give you any insight did you connect the dots basically by playing Drusilla and Buffy. Did you ever connect the dots between vampires and what was happening in my family and did all of that ever come through for you. I'm just curious because it seems like that was the birth of an idea that became a place among the dead.

That's why I'm asking.

That's why I'm asking.

Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think it did at the time. I mean, it's funny because even with how I.

Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think it did at the time. I mean, it's funny because even with how I.

Was, I sort of approached the character of Scilla.

Was, I sort of approached the character of Scilla.

I never thought of her really as a vampire as such, in that she was a very multifaceted character and she had a lot of trauma in her background, but also had like this epic love story that went on for two hundred years, and so there was so much dimension to her that my main.

I never thought of her really as a vampire as such, in that she was a very multifaceted character and she had a lot of trauma in her background, but also had like this epic love story that went on for two hundred years, and so there was so much dimension to her that my main.

Thrust was to how to flesh her out.

Thrust was to how to flesh her out.

In a way that was human, so that you would relate to her and sort of pull for her, even though she is the villain, but because she was written and created and had three hundred and sixty degrees, where sometimes a villain can be very one dimensional. So I don't think I thought of it in a cognizant way.

In a way that was human, so that you would relate to her and sort of pull for her, even though she is the villain, but because she was written and created and had three hundred and sixty degrees, where sometimes a villain can be very one dimensional. So I don't think I thought of it in a cognizant way.

So I want to talk about your film Place among the Dead, which is a vampire film. It is a yeah, it's a vampire film. I want to say that maybe in the horror genre, but it's also very much a narcissistic abuse film, which of course that's part I was like, Oh, I see it, I see it, I see it. So one of the sort of technique's tools, if you will you used in the film was these internalized voices like you said that running tape that people have in real time, and some of the things that you're your character. This woman who is trying to save others and trying to save others is putting herself in harm's way. These internalized voices of her parents are things like we need you.

So I want to talk about your film Place among the Dead, which is a vampire film. It is a yeah, it's a vampire film. I want to say that maybe in the horror genre, but it's also very much a narcissistic abuse film, which of course that's part I was like, Oh, I see it, I see it, I see it. So one of the sort of technique's tools, if you will you used in the film was these internalized voices like you said that running tape that people have in real time, and some of the things that you're your character. This woman who is trying to save others and trying to save others is putting herself in harm's way. These internalized voices of her parents are things like we need you.

To be a mess.

To be a mess.

I need you to be confused, there is something wrong with you. You are unlovable. Never outshine us, your to blame, and those lines, when I pulled those out of the film, like my goodness, that is the ideation of the vast majority of survivors, even if this didn't happen to them in childhood, even if this happened to them in an adult relationship for the first time. And so let's talk about the film. A Place among the dead, and also even take a step back, is that you know your whole you've spent some time in the vampire genre and you know, you were on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You were in that vampirey world for a while. And then use that metaphor, but it was so apt and then combining it with this idea of that running self talk that's not even our voice, it's theirs. And I think that that was what was so powerful about your film because we often think like, oh, I'm just talking to myself badly. I'm like, nah, I think it's them talking to you and it's just playing in your head. So talk to me about where the film came from, how you came up with ideas like that, your vampire Journey as it were.

I need you to be confused, there is something wrong with you. You are unlovable. Never outshine us, your to blame, and those lines, when I pulled those out of the film, like my goodness, that is the ideation of the vast majority of survivors, even if this didn't happen to them in childhood, even if this happened to them in an adult relationship for the first time. And so let's talk about the film. A Place among the dead, and also even take a step back, is that you know your whole you've spent some time in the vampire genre and you know, you were on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You were in that vampirey world for a while. And then use that metaphor, but it was so apt and then combining it with this idea of that running self talk that's not even our voice, it's theirs. And I think that that was what was so powerful about your film because we often think like, oh, I'm just talking to myself badly. I'm like, nah, I think it's them talking to you and it's just playing in your head. So talk to me about where the film came from, how you came up with ideas like that, your vampire Journey as it were.

Absolutely what you said resonates so much. In the opening part of the voiceover. It actually starts with the parents whispering the thoughts, all of them like what you mentioned, and then there's a point where the character's voice picks them up and so you're exactly, isn't you know they've been help like planted in there and it's in her voice. The movie is a genre bending art film, and you know, we wanted to use genre for a number of reasons. First of all, we wanted to make an entertaining movie, and I really wanted to lull the audience into a sense of safety, using a genre that they love and tropes that they feel comfortable with to talk about unsafe and uncomfortable ideas.

Absolutely what you said resonates so much. In the opening part of the voiceover. It actually starts with the parents whispering the thoughts, all of them like what you mentioned, and then there's a point where the character's voice picks them up and so you're exactly, isn't you know they've been help like planted in there and it's in her voice. The movie is a genre bending art film, and you know, we wanted to use genre for a number of reasons. First of all, we wanted to make an entertaining movie, and I really wanted to lull the audience into a sense of safety, using a genre that they love and tropes that they feel comfortable with to talk about unsafe and uncomfortable ideas.

The whole movie is scripted.

The whole movie is scripted.

But I blur the lines of reality. So all of the known cast play alter ego versions of themselves, and every single one has a tie to vampire material. So I play Jules, and obviously I was on Buffy and Angel, and Gary Oldman was in Bram Stoker's Dracula, and Ron Pearlman was in Blade two, and Anne Rice wrote the Vampire Chronicles Interview with the Vampire and such, and so it was a way to bring in all of our histories. And truly, I felt like the vampire is the perfect metaphor for the ultimate narcissist. It's a being which drains all for its own needs. Vampires mesmerize and have people in their thrall narcissists are often exceedingly charismatic. You have to invite vampires in when we're talking about narcissists in the family you don't invite those people in, but you do invite others of that ilk once you've been primed to or if you get into a love relationship and you're not even from this background, you invite that person into your life. Vampires do not change, They stay exactly the same.

But I blur the lines of reality. So all of the known cast play alter ego versions of themselves, and every single one has a tie to vampire material. So I play Jules, and obviously I was on Buffy and Angel, and Gary Oldman was in Bram Stoker's Dracula, and Ron Pearlman was in Blade two, and Anne Rice wrote the Vampire Chronicles Interview with the Vampire and such, and so it was a way to bring in all of our histories. And truly, I felt like the vampire is the perfect metaphor for the ultimate narcissist. It's a being which drains all for its own needs. Vampires mesmerize and have people in their thrall narcissists are often exceedingly charismatic. You have to invite vampires in when we're talking about narcissists in the family you don't invite those people in, but you do invite others of that ilk once you've been primed to or if you get into a love relationship and you're not even from this background, you invite that person into your life. Vampires do not change, They stay exactly the same.

Narcissists do not change.

Narcissists do not change.

Vampires cannot see themselves their own self reflection in a mirror. Narcissists have zero capacity to self reflect. And it goes on and on and on, and really, in the movie, what we're exploring is the whole spectrum, so from the systematic, consistent nothing of spirit, light, liveliness all the way to the heinous snuffing of life. And the Darcel character in the movie, he personifies the most diabolical, the darkest end of that spectrum. In fact, Darcel means darkness in French, and in the movie you're never quite sure is he a vampire or is he a serial killer who emulates a vampire. It doesn't matter because the traits are so much the same. And what we're exploring we talked a little bit about this earlier, is that idea how we often just replay the unwinnable parent or the past trauma in our lives, and we keep wanting desperately this other outcome that we're gonna win this time, and in fact, when we do that, we don't. It just gets worse and worse and worse, and we put ourselves in harm's way in more and more dangerous situations.

Vampires cannot see themselves their own self reflection in a mirror. Narcissists have zero capacity to self reflect. And it goes on and on and on, and really, in the movie, what we're exploring is the whole spectrum, so from the systematic, consistent nothing of spirit, light, liveliness all the way to the heinous snuffing of life. And the Darcel character in the movie, he personifies the most diabolical, the darkest end of that spectrum. In fact, Darcel means darkness in French, and in the movie you're never quite sure is he a vampire or is he a serial killer who emulates a vampire. It doesn't matter because the traits are so much the same. And what we're exploring we talked a little bit about this earlier, is that idea how we often just replay the unwinnable parent or the past trauma in our lives, and we keep wanting desperately this other outcome that we're gonna win this time, and in fact, when we do that, we don't. It just gets worse and worse and worse, and we put ourselves in harm's way in more and more dangerous situations.

You know, I never even thought about all the other metaphors you are sharing about how vampires parallel narcissists. A big one though, and when I watched the film a second time third time I got was the idea that the vampire is forever young and they attempt to steal youth right, their victims are always young. And I forgot that element of it because that also is that piece of when we think of the narcissistic vanity, how important and their quest for eternal youth and however they can get that, whether that's by changing their appearance or how they dress, how they present to the world, the age of a partner, whatever it may be, they try to stay young. And that idea to me, of stealing youth in essence is stealing innocence. They take people and they distort what love and goodness and kindness are into relationship and the people who come out of narcissistic relationships will say, I don't think my conception of love is ever quite going to be the same. I don't think it'll ever quite be so innocent or trusting. So that theft of the vampire of youth and they're sort of their commitment to youth was a piece I didn't get until this most recent viewing.