How did I not see it? It's the haunting question all abused survivors have asked themselves. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I've invited the world's leading expert on betrayal, who has dedicated her life to finding the answer to this tormenting question. I can't remember the last time I was this excited to talk to someone. After decades of research, doctor Jennifer Fried has coined the term betrayal blindness to describe our inability to recognize betrayal, especially when the perpetrator is someone or something we trust, for example, a parent who abuses a child, or a partner that cheats, or a church that hides abuse. If you've been listening to Navigating Narcissism for a while, you've heard me talk about doctor Fried time and again. Her work is key to understanding what happens to survivors of narcissistic abuse. It is my honor to speak with the legendary doctor Jennifer Fried. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So, first of all, doctor Jennifer Fried, Welcome. Every so often we have a guest where again I'm a bit starstruck, and this is one of those days. I've been reading your work throughout my career and it's actually been really influential in shaping my work in the area of narcissistic abuse. So not only am I so happy you're here, I'm so deeply honored, in a little bit awestruck. So welcome and thank you.

How did I not see it? It's the haunting question all abused survivors have asked themselves. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I've invited the world's leading expert on betrayal, who has dedicated her life to finding the answer to this tormenting question. I can't remember the last time I was this excited to talk to someone. After decades of research, doctor Jennifer Fried has coined the term betrayal blindness to describe our inability to recognize betrayal, especially when the perpetrator is someone or something we trust, for example, a parent who abuses a child, or a partner that cheats, or a church that hides abuse. If you've been listening to Navigating Narcissism for a while, you've heard me talk about doctor Fried time and again. Her work is key to understanding what happens to survivors of narcissistic abuse. It is my honor to speak with the legendary doctor Jennifer Fried. This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So, first of all, doctor Jennifer Fried, Welcome. Every so often we have a guest where again I'm a bit starstruck, and this is one of those days. I've been reading your work throughout my career and it's actually been really influential in shaping my work in the area of narcissistic abuse. So not only am I so happy you're here, I'm so deeply honored, in a little bit awestruck. So welcome and thank you.

Well, I'm delighted to be here.

Well, I'm delighted to be here.

Thank you, doctor Fried. And I want to talk about what is betrayal? Everyone uses the word, but you have a really, really great comprehensive definition.

Thank you, doctor Fried. And I want to talk about what is betrayal? Everyone uses the word, but you have a really, really great comprehensive definition.

What is it Betrayal is when somebody that you depend upon, you're close to, your trust, doesn't have your back in an important situation and in some way harms you. So it can be what we might call on every day betrayal, like somebody tells a secret that you ask them to hold, or it can be a traumatic betrayal what I call betrayal trauma when the thing that's being done to you is deeply harmful, such as marital rape or child abuse by a caregiver, and in those cases, the very person that you have a reason to trust and depend upon is the perpetrator of a harm.

What is it Betrayal is when somebody that you depend upon, you're close to, your trust, doesn't have your back in an important situation and in some way harms you. So it can be what we might call on every day betrayal, like somebody tells a secret that you ask them to hold, or it can be a traumatic betrayal what I call betrayal trauma when the thing that's being done to you is deeply harmful, such as marital rape or child abuse by a caregiver, and in those cases, the very person that you have a reason to trust and depend upon is the perpetrator of a harm.

One thing that struck me about betrayal is that most people think of betrayal as lying, cheating, or stealing. That's it. Your work has broadened this definition into this idea of really being harmed by someone that you presumed yourself to be in a trusting relationship with.

One thing that struck me about betrayal is that most people think of betrayal as lying, cheating, or stealing. That's it. Your work has broadened this definition into this idea of really being harmed by someone that you presumed yourself to be in a trusting relationship with.

Yes, the betrayal trauma theory is a theory that I originally actually started to work on to make sense of one particular kind of betrayal blindness, and that in the devising this theory, I began to start to measure betrayal trauma and found that betrayal traumas, which are defined as significant mistreatment by somebody that the victim is dependent upon trusts and is close to that, they are very toxic that they have negative effects on almost every system we looked at, so people's mental health, physical health, substance misuse, behavioral problems. It's very toxic stuff.

Yes, the betrayal trauma theory is a theory that I originally actually started to work on to make sense of one particular kind of betrayal blindness, and that in the devising this theory, I began to start to measure betrayal trauma and found that betrayal traumas, which are defined as significant mistreatment by somebody that the victim is dependent upon trusts and is close to that, they are very toxic that they have negative effects on almost every system we looked at, so people's mental health, physical health, substance misuse, behavioral problems. It's very toxic stuff.

In order to better understand betrayal trauma, doctor Fried developed which she calls the Brief Betrayal Trauma Survey. This twelve question form can help someone recognize the amount of betrayal trauma they've encountered based on their personal experiences. This survey is available in the show notes and on our Instagram page at Navigating Narcissism Pod.

In order to better understand betrayal trauma, doctor Fried developed which she calls the Brief Betrayal Trauma Survey. This twelve question form can help someone recognize the amount of betrayal trauma they've encountered based on their personal experiences. This survey is available in the show notes and on our Instagram page at Navigating Narcissism Pod.

It's very relational, and you know what we've learned over time is it's relational even if the entity harming you is bigger than a person, such as an institution. But where we started was one on one kind of betrayal and betrayal trauma, where it was one person hurting another person, and the harm exists in some sense, well sometimes just by the very act as part of the harm. But another part of the harm is this huge discrepancy between what you trust and what has happened to you.

It's very relational, and you know what we've learned over time is it's relational even if the entity harming you is bigger than a person, such as an institution. But where we started was one on one kind of betrayal and betrayal trauma, where it was one person hurting another person, and the harm exists in some sense, well sometimes just by the very act as part of the harm. But another part of the harm is this huge discrepancy between what you trust and what has happened to you.

Okay, can you talk more about that, that discrepancy between what you trust and what has happened to you?

Okay, can you talk more about that, that discrepancy between what you trust and what has happened to you?

Yeah, part of The reason it's so harmful is it creates a real world bind. What people do when they've been harmed, and you know, a healthy reaction is to seek support and shelter from those who have your back, those you trust. But when the harm comes from that very person or people, what are you going to do if you seek shelter from those who are harming you. Often that is actually what people end up doing, but it comes at a big cost. I mean, the other thing people do is they run away, but that comes at a big cost. It's a true buying. There is not an you're stuck in some sense and you're going to pay a price even though it wasn't your fault.

Yeah, part of The reason it's so harmful is it creates a real world bind. What people do when they've been harmed, and you know, a healthy reaction is to seek support and shelter from those who have your back, those you trust. But when the harm comes from that very person or people, what are you going to do if you seek shelter from those who are harming you. Often that is actually what people end up doing, but it comes at a big cost. I mean, the other thing people do is they run away, but that comes at a big cost. It's a true buying. There is not an you're stuck in some sense and you're going to pay a price even though it wasn't your fault.

There's two paths you've talked about, right. You either confront the betrayer, which is in some ways dangerous, right, and then there's the running away then not confronting it. But then one could argue there's a third path, which is tell yourself a story so that you don't even have to view this person as betraying your trust. And that's where we get into your really important work on betrayal blindness. Can you describe what betrayal blindness is?

There's two paths you've talked about, right. You either confront the betrayer, which is in some ways dangerous, right, and then there's the running away then not confronting it. But then one could argue there's a third path, which is tell yourself a story so that you don't even have to view this person as betraying your trust. And that's where we get into your really important work on betrayal blindness. Can you describe what betrayal blindness is?

Betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism for a person who's being mistreated by somebody that they must depend upon. But it is a survival mechanism that comes with a big cost, and that cost is both in the short run in the sense they can't stop the mistreatment, and in the long run that they've lost some ability to assess who's trustworthy. People who cannot respond to betrayal trauma with betrayal blindness, and not everybody can. Some people are better out of than others often find themselves in the situation where the abuse just gets worse and worse, and you know, they may die from that abuse. So there's other ways betrayal trauma can be toxic, and one of them comes from not being able to have betrayal blindness, that it is inherently a bad thing that is happening to a person. I can mean, for instance, a child who cannot use betrayal blindness may end up actually getting kicked out of the house because their awareness is intolerable.

Betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism for a person who's being mistreated by somebody that they must depend upon. But it is a survival mechanism that comes with a big cost, and that cost is both in the short run in the sense they can't stop the mistreatment, and in the long run that they've lost some ability to assess who's trustworthy. People who cannot respond to betrayal trauma with betrayal blindness, and not everybody can. Some people are better out of than others often find themselves in the situation where the abuse just gets worse and worse, and you know, they may die from that abuse. So there's other ways betrayal trauma can be toxic, and one of them comes from not being able to have betrayal blindness, that it is inherently a bad thing that is happening to a person. I can mean, for instance, a child who cannot use betrayal blindness may end up actually getting kicked out of the house because their awareness is intolerable.

Let me ask you this then, because the way you're saying a child who can't use betrayal blindness, a person in a relationship who can't use betrayal blindness, the way you're describing it, it sounds like a conscious process.

Let me ask you this then, because the way you're saying a child who can't use betrayal blindness, a person in a relationship who can't use betrayal blindness, the way you're describing it, it sounds like a conscious process.

I don't mean it to be. It's really hard to use it consciously because it's hard to control the attachment system that right well, and sort of our feelings tend to leak and it takes a lot of effort to deceive the hide feelings. So most of the time the betrayal blindness happens outside of consciousness, and it makes it much more effective. And then you can engage in all the behaviors that are positive for a relationship. So if you don't know you're doing it, that is, you don't know you're blocking out some mistreatment, you can continue to be friendly and loving and all the things that keep that relationship going. So it's actually better to have it outside of consciousness. But you know, I've talked to people who consciously try to use it, Like they say, like, yeah, I know my partner is cheating on me and doing these other harmful things, but I don't want to lose that person, And besides, I need their income, don't want them have to move out of my house. And you'll give you a host of reasons. They don't want to confront that person because they realize how risky it is, and so they try with all their might to put it out of their mind. And you know, some people are better at that than others, but I'm sure we've all tried it at some point, so you know they're really I think three pass. And they have an interesting analogy to the terms fight, flight, and freeze, because these are survival responses to threat. So when somebody betrays you and you are fully empowered, it actually is in your interest to either fight or flee because you don't want to continue to be harmed by this person. So you go to a store where you keep getting that product and you getting ripped off, Well, either you demand the store give you your money back, which would be fight, or you decide not to shop there anymore, which would be flight. You can think about that with relationships too. A friend betrays you in a certain way and you are empowered to pick different friends, well, you may well leave that friend or give them an ultimatum you either correct this behavior or this relationship's over. However, that's great if you have that empowerment, but it's destabilizing and you are risking the continuation of the relationship and your status. If you're not fully empowered. That can be very dangerous. So a child doesn't have the option really right. And when a child, say, fights against mistreatment, it's often going to escalate the mistreatment. And when a child tries to flee from this treatment in a real world sense, like maybe you know, hide in their room, or stop talking to their parents or withdraw, they risk the person, their parent or whoever it is not taking care of them and meeting their needs. Because relationships we cry are this active involvement. So this is where that third path comes in that I call betrayal blindness, which is the not seeing to some degree what's going on in order to stay engaged in a relationship that you feel and may truly be necessary to your survival, and it can keep a child or an adult alive. You see a similar dynamic in the workplace when somebody really needs a job and they have a boss who's bullying them or sexually harassing them. If they confront that by complaining or they withdraw from that boss in some way, they may lose their status, they may lose their job, and they may feel that that's an existential threat. They really need that job. So in that case, people can also use betrayal blindness to keep the job by not seeing fully the mistreatment.

I don't mean it to be. It's really hard to use it consciously because it's hard to control the attachment system that right well, and sort of our feelings tend to leak and it takes a lot of effort to deceive the hide feelings. So most of the time the betrayal blindness happens outside of consciousness, and it makes it much more effective. And then you can engage in all the behaviors that are positive for a relationship. So if you don't know you're doing it, that is, you don't know you're blocking out some mistreatment, you can continue to be friendly and loving and all the things that keep that relationship going. So it's actually better to have it outside of consciousness. But you know, I've talked to people who consciously try to use it, Like they say, like, yeah, I know my partner is cheating on me and doing these other harmful things, but I don't want to lose that person, And besides, I need their income, don't want them have to move out of my house. And you'll give you a host of reasons. They don't want to confront that person because they realize how risky it is, and so they try with all their might to put it out of their mind. And you know, some people are better at that than others, but I'm sure we've all tried it at some point, so you know they're really I think three pass. And they have an interesting analogy to the terms fight, flight, and freeze, because these are survival responses to threat. So when somebody betrays you and you are fully empowered, it actually is in your interest to either fight or flee because you don't want to continue to be harmed by this person. So you go to a store where you keep getting that product and you getting ripped off, Well, either you demand the store give you your money back, which would be fight, or you decide not to shop there anymore, which would be flight. You can think about that with relationships too. A friend betrays you in a certain way and you are empowered to pick different friends, well, you may well leave that friend or give them an ultimatum you either correct this behavior or this relationship's over. However, that's great if you have that empowerment, but it's destabilizing and you are risking the continuation of the relationship and your status. If you're not fully empowered. That can be very dangerous. So a child doesn't have the option really right. And when a child, say, fights against mistreatment, it's often going to escalate the mistreatment. And when a child tries to flee from this treatment in a real world sense, like maybe you know, hide in their room, or stop talking to their parents or withdraw, they risk the person, their parent or whoever it is not taking care of them and meeting their needs. Because relationships we cry are this active involvement. So this is where that third path comes in that I call betrayal blindness, which is the not seeing to some degree what's going on in order to stay engaged in a relationship that you feel and may truly be necessary to your survival, and it can keep a child or an adult alive. You see a similar dynamic in the workplace when somebody really needs a job and they have a boss who's bullying them or sexually harassing them. If they confront that by complaining or they withdraw from that boss in some way, they may lose their status, they may lose their job, and they may feel that that's an existential threat. They really need that job. So in that case, people can also use betrayal blindness to keep the job by not seeing fully the mistreatment.

You said here that if a person feels empowered, then they may be able to face down the betrayal situation. In your experience, what do you believe drives this sense of a person feeling sufficiently empowered to be able to address betrayal in a relationship.

You said here that if a person feels empowered, then they may be able to face down the betrayal situation. In your experience, what do you believe drives this sense of a person feeling sufficiently empowered to be able to address betrayal in a relationship.

That's a great question, and a complication is sometimes people are actually empowered and they don't feel it. Sometimes people are not empowered but they think they are, so people are not empowered when there is a vast power difference between the two sides. If you're a small child, you're not empowered in your relationship with your parents in a kind of physical sense. They can just overpower you. In a really healthy parent child relationship, the parent will try to provide a kind of power to the child that for instance, the child can complain and the parent will listen. But it's a resource the parent's giving the child. Inherently, the situation is very asymmetric. The parent holds the power well. Often in our society we have that kind of asymmetry, So you know, it can show up. Suppose a traffic violation and uses all their social position, whether it's racial or their gun in their holster, to overpower the person that they've just stopped. What's really tragic is when somebody is in fact empowered and they don't see it. And one way that comes about is through childhood mistreatment as well as societal messages. So we'll know, some people are socialized to believe, whether due to gender other dimensions, that they are supposed to succumb to other people's wishes and demands, and may feel that they don't have the power to stand up for themselves when even in some sort of more objective sense, they do. But you know, some people have learned betrayal blindness so well that they just immediately jump to the not seeing the problem, even when they've grown up and have some choices.

That's a great question, and a complication is sometimes people are actually empowered and they don't feel it. Sometimes people are not empowered but they think they are, so people are not empowered when there is a vast power difference between the two sides. If you're a small child, you're not empowered in your relationship with your parents in a kind of physical sense. They can just overpower you. In a really healthy parent child relationship, the parent will try to provide a kind of power to the child that for instance, the child can complain and the parent will listen. But it's a resource the parent's giving the child. Inherently, the situation is very asymmetric. The parent holds the power well. Often in our society we have that kind of asymmetry, So you know, it can show up. Suppose a traffic violation and uses all their social position, whether it's racial or their gun in their holster, to overpower the person that they've just stopped. What's really tragic is when somebody is in fact empowered and they don't see it. And one way that comes about is through childhood mistreatment as well as societal messages. So we'll know, some people are socialized to believe, whether due to gender other dimensions, that they are supposed to succumb to other people's wishes and demands, and may feel that they don't have the power to stand up for themselves when even in some sort of more objective sense, they do. But you know, some people have learned betrayal blindness so well that they just immediately jump to the not seeing the problem, even when they've grown up and have some choices.

I think that the issues with child and parent, child and teacher, even child and coach, anyone who could potentially betray a child, right, that makes sense. A child is inherently disempowered. It does start getting money, though, doctor Fried when we talk about the interpersonal context, like you said, people who are empowered but don't even know it is. You know, my work is in these narcissistic relationships where in fact, you might even have two people who might even hold relatively similar levels of societal power, and yet, like you said, through chronic blindness in the relationship, they don't feel empowered, They don't feel they can step up to this person. And this is where we get into terms like gaslighting, because even if they do front up and say, hey, I just saw these inappropriate text messages or I just heard from someone in your office that you're behaving badly, or I saw how you behave whatever it is that they're pointing out, that that betrayer as it were, will say to them, no, I didn't, or what's wrong with you? And so, while there's no difference in power one person being willing to engage in that kind of abuse of psychological warfare, it makes the other person less empowered. Does that make sense?

I think that the issues with child and parent, child and teacher, even child and coach, anyone who could potentially betray a child, right, that makes sense. A child is inherently disempowered. It does start getting money, though, doctor Fried when we talk about the interpersonal context, like you said, people who are empowered but don't even know it is. You know, my work is in these narcissistic relationships where in fact, you might even have two people who might even hold relatively similar levels of societal power, and yet, like you said, through chronic blindness in the relationship, they don't feel empowered, They don't feel they can step up to this person. And this is where we get into terms like gaslighting, because even if they do front up and say, hey, I just saw these inappropriate text messages or I just heard from someone in your office that you're behaving badly, or I saw how you behave whatever it is that they're pointing out, that that betrayer as it were, will say to them, no, I didn't, or what's wrong with you? And so, while there's no difference in power one person being willing to engage in that kind of abuse of psychological warfare, it makes the other person less empowered. Does that make sense?

It totally does. And you know I've seen this play out. I mean, if the person who's being betrayed had times in their life, and we all did, because we were all children where they didn't have power, and if in those situations there was any kind of abuse of that power and they learned to cope with it with betrayal blindness, then they're going to be very vulnerable to that system being exploited. Again. Another factor here is that we are wired and built to form attachments to other people to love, and we do that from the earliest days with people who have so much more power than us, because we love our parents, and that love is how we experience the attachment system that keeps us alive. And a baby that can't express love in the way babies can gets into trouble with a parent because parents need this to reinforce all that caregiving. Well, given this, that love then gets wrapped up in how betrayal works. Basically, if you are in a situation where you love somebody but they are manipulating you, it's kind of like you are a bit in that dependent relationship because of that love that you feel. It puts you in auation where you're going to have some motivation to protect that attachment, even if you don't need it for your bread and butter, but you need it emotionally or you think you do, and that can be weaponized, that can be played on. So these are good systems, the attachment systems good, but then these systems can be used in other contexts against people.

It totally does. And you know I've seen this play out. I mean, if the person who's being betrayed had times in their life, and we all did, because we were all children where they didn't have power, and if in those situations there was any kind of abuse of that power and they learned to cope with it with betrayal blindness, then they're going to be very vulnerable to that system being exploited. Again. Another factor here is that we are wired and built to form attachments to other people to love, and we do that from the earliest days with people who have so much more power than us, because we love our parents, and that love is how we experience the attachment system that keeps us alive. And a baby that can't express love in the way babies can gets into trouble with a parent because parents need this to reinforce all that caregiving. Well, given this, that love then gets wrapped up in how betrayal works. Basically, if you are in a situation where you love somebody but they are manipulating you, it's kind of like you are a bit in that dependent relationship because of that love that you feel. It puts you in auation where you're going to have some motivation to protect that attachment, even if you don't need it for your bread and butter, but you need it emotionally or you think you do, and that can be weaponized, that can be played on. So these are good systems, the attachment systems good, but then these systems can be used in other contexts against people.

In your book, blind to Betrayal, which every one of you needs to go out there and read immediately. This is one of the best books I've ever read. Every survivor of narcissistic abuse needs to read this book. On this show, we're talking about narcissistic abuse, right We're talking about people who are in relationships that are almost It's a given that these are betraying relationships. At the core of it, the person with that personality organization who's in the relationship and motivated by power, dominance, control and their own insecurity, plus the traits of lack of empathy, entitlement and all of that, is attempting to basically subjugate another person. You know that the other person is acting entirely in their service, and that is sometimes to me, that inherently is a betrayal. There's an inherent betrayal in somebody who doesn't treat you as an equal psychological player in a relationship. So do you agree with that framing that betrayal blindness may be basically an element of every single narcissistic relationship.

In your book, blind to Betrayal, which every one of you needs to go out there and read immediately. This is one of the best books I've ever read. Every survivor of narcissistic abuse needs to read this book. On this show, we're talking about narcissistic abuse, right We're talking about people who are in relationships that are almost It's a given that these are betraying relationships. At the core of it, the person with that personality organization who's in the relationship and motivated by power, dominance, control and their own insecurity, plus the traits of lack of empathy, entitlement and all of that, is attempting to basically subjugate another person. You know that the other person is acting entirely in their service, and that is sometimes to me, that inherently is a betrayal. There's an inherent betrayal in somebody who doesn't treat you as an equal psychological player in a relationship. So do you agree with that framing that betrayal blindness may be basically an element of every single narcissistic relationship.

I think that's a very reasonable hypothesis. What you're saying makes complete sense, and certainly you know it makes particularly makes sense if you think about narcissistic relationships that persist over time, right that, how could that persist over time without some amount of betrayal blindness?

I think that's a very reasonable hypothesis. What you're saying makes complete sense, and certainly you know it makes particularly makes sense if you think about narcissistic relationships that persist over time, right that, how could that persist over time without some amount of betrayal blindness?

I'd argue they cannot. And I think that blindness to me fits this so well, because a narcissistic relationship is a relationship with somebody whose personality organization is such that they cannot be in a healthy, balanced, equitable relationship, and so they are going to betray to get their needs met. Right, So, using that as a framework, do you think betrayal blindness is what would make somebody vulnerable to getting stuck in a relationship characterized by these dynamics of gas lighting, manipulation, invalidation, chronic lying, could be cheating, could be financial abuse. Do you think that that isn't connected to people either staying in these relationships or getting sucked back in even when they try to step away from them.

I'd argue they cannot. And I think that blindness to me fits this so well, because a narcissistic relationship is a relationship with somebody whose personality organization is such that they cannot be in a healthy, balanced, equitable relationship, and so they are going to betray to get their needs met. Right, So, using that as a framework, do you think betrayal blindness is what would make somebody vulnerable to getting stuck in a relationship characterized by these dynamics of gas lighting, manipulation, invalidation, chronic lying, could be cheating, could be financial abuse. Do you think that that isn't connected to people either staying in these relationships or getting sucked back in even when they try to step away from them.

Yes, I do, And you know, if I'm correct, then helping people not respond with betrayal blindness will help them not stay in such relationships and protect themselves and have healthy boundaries so that they're not being mistreated in this way. And I think one of the things you're saying that I think is really important is that abuse can occur in the emotional and psychological sphere. And it's much easier for us to identify abuse when it's physical or sexual, but for emotional and psychological abuse, which are so powerful in some ways at the heart of all abuse, are not always as easy to identify and to label and to know. And part of that is the way we're taught, and you know, we don't necessarily have the skills, But part of it is that emotional and psychological abuse really occurs over time in a relationship context. It's not usually in the moment, whereas you know physical and sexual abuse there is in the moment's sense of it. But everybody can have a bad like if you're in a long term relationship with somebody, you're going to say something harmful sometimes. I mean, that's human. So what makes it abusive is this pattern over time, and I think that's just harder to recognize. And so yeah, I think it's harder for people to say this is abusive, to understand it's abusive, whether you're the victim or even watching a relationship. I mean, how many times do we say in this world that this harmful relationship at the psychological level is abusive.

Yes, I do, And you know, if I'm correct, then helping people not respond with betrayal blindness will help them not stay in such relationships and protect themselves and have healthy boundaries so that they're not being mistreated in this way. And I think one of the things you're saying that I think is really important is that abuse can occur in the emotional and psychological sphere. And it's much easier for us to identify abuse when it's physical or sexual, but for emotional and psychological abuse, which are so powerful in some ways at the heart of all abuse, are not always as easy to identify and to label and to know. And part of that is the way we're taught, and you know, we don't necessarily have the skills, But part of it is that emotional and psychological abuse really occurs over time in a relationship context. It's not usually in the moment, whereas you know physical and sexual abuse there is in the moment's sense of it. But everybody can have a bad like if you're in a long term relationship with somebody, you're going to say something harmful sometimes. I mean, that's human. So what makes it abusive is this pattern over time, and I think that's just harder to recognize. And so yeah, I think it's harder for people to say this is abusive, to understand it's abusive, whether you're the victim or even watching a relationship. I mean, how many times do we say in this world that this harmful relationship at the psychological level is abusive.

I think that in narcissistically abusive relationships too. From the world at large, Like you said, these are long term relationships, and I'm really glad you made that distinction, because I think what happens is that there's a real risk of like everybody has a bad day, you know, it's not that big a deal. This isn't about a bad day. These are bad lifetimes. Like these are thirty forty fifty year marriages. These are relationships that have been characterized by this kind of emotional and psychological hijacking since pretty much infancy. So this is the only reality that this person really really knows. But the pushback from the world, and honestly, even I think the psychological community is sometimes like, oh, that's just someone who's a jerk. It's a larger scale psychological issue that is actually doing significant harm to an individual. We will be right back with this conversation. So going back then to betrayal blindness, I want to connect it to a really common phenomenon we see in survivors is that people in these relationships blame themselves. This has got to be me. I've got to be doing something wrong. How do you see betrayal blindness connecting to the self blame we see that people experience when they're in emotionally abusive relationships.

I think that in narcissistically abusive relationships too. From the world at large, Like you said, these are long term relationships, and I'm really glad you made that distinction, because I think what happens is that there's a real risk of like everybody has a bad day, you know, it's not that big a deal. This isn't about a bad day. These are bad lifetimes. Like these are thirty forty fifty year marriages. These are relationships that have been characterized by this kind of emotional and psychological hijacking since pretty much infancy. So this is the only reality that this person really really knows. But the pushback from the world, and honestly, even I think the psychological community is sometimes like, oh, that's just someone who's a jerk. It's a larger scale psychological issue that is actually doing significant harm to an individual. We will be right back with this conversation. So going back then to betrayal blindness, I want to connect it to a really common phenomenon we see in survivors is that people in these relationships blame themselves. This has got to be me. I've got to be doing something wrong. How do you see betrayal blindness connecting to the self blame we see that people experience when they're in emotionally abusive relationships.

Yeah, I think they're quite connected. In Another sort of related concept here, I think is shame. If you can take some or even all of the blame of what's not working onto yourself, it actually supports the betrayal blindness, right because you are no longer going to see the other person as responsible, so you're not going to see that they're betraying you. And you know, one way people take on the blame is through the emotion of shame, where they get mistreated by somebody else and then they feel shamed, and that shame has it sort of implicit in it that there's something I've done or could do differently to have prevented or in the future prevent this mistreatment, and therefore it's not the fault of the person who's doing it. It's something about me, and therefore I can stay in relationship with this person because I'm the one who's the problem. So it's part of that very dynamic of betrayal blindness, right.

Yeah, I think they're quite connected. In Another sort of related concept here, I think is shame. If you can take some or even all of the blame of what's not working onto yourself, it actually supports the betrayal blindness, right because you are no longer going to see the other person as responsible, so you're not going to see that they're betraying you. And you know, one way people take on the blame is through the emotion of shame, where they get mistreated by somebody else and then they feel shamed, and that shame has it sort of implicit in it that there's something I've done or could do differently to have prevented or in the future prevent this mistreatment, and therefore it's not the fault of the person who's doing it. It's something about me, and therefore I can stay in relationship with this person because I'm the one who's the problem. So it's part of that very dynamic of betrayal blindness, right.

But the driver then, ultimately, going back to the attachment model, is to maintain the relationship that we're still going back to that sort of home base as it were, Right, It's.

But the driver then, ultimately, going back to the attachment model, is to maintain the relationship that we're still going back to that sort of home base as it were, Right, It's.

Not that people want to be masochistic. It's that people are trying to protect something they feel is essential.

Not that people want to be masochistic. It's that people are trying to protect something they feel is essential.

Yep. And to everyone listening to this who's going through narcissistic abuse, I hope you can sit with that that you are trying to preserve something, an attachment that feels so essential to you. This is not you being foolish. This is about you actually trying to safeguard something that feels important to you. And I think where survivor struggle is exactly where you're talking about, doctor Fried. Is this idea of this shame like what kind of fool am I that I'm okay with this. But the much more primal drum beat to that is the attachment need. That inherent human need for love, connection, relation, and attachment is so strong that this entire cognitive process is a way to keep the primal need met. Does that make sense?

Yep. And to everyone listening to this who's going through narcissistic abuse, I hope you can sit with that that you are trying to preserve something, an attachment that feels so essential to you. This is not you being foolish. This is about you actually trying to safeguard something that feels important to you. And I think where survivor struggle is exactly where you're talking about, doctor Fried. Is this idea of this shame like what kind of fool am I that I'm okay with this. But the much more primal drum beat to that is the attachment need. That inherent human need for love, connection, relation, and attachment is so strong that this entire cognitive process is a way to keep the primal need met. Does that make sense?

Yeah? And I mean part of that primal need is to us, so to love, it's to be loved, but it's too love too, and so it's a good thing about us. I mean, I think that people's eagerness to love is one of the best things about us, and the fact that it can make us vulnerable to mistreatment, to betrayal that comes hand in hand with this good thing will to love. So it does hurt my heart to see people blaming themselves for staying in a relationship where they love the person. Yeah, the person may be hurting them, and that's a terrible thing, but that you know, isn't fundamentally something they've done wrong. And although you and I from the outside might want them to get out of that relationship because we see it's harming them, their impulse to make it work and to stay in it comes from a good place.

Yeah? And I mean part of that primal need is to us, so to love, it's to be loved, but it's too love too, and so it's a good thing about us. I mean, I think that people's eagerness to love is one of the best things about us, and the fact that it can make us vulnerable to mistreatment, to betrayal that comes hand in hand with this good thing will to love. So it does hurt my heart to see people blaming themselves for staying in a relationship where they love the person. Yeah, the person may be hurting them, and that's a terrible thing, but that you know, isn't fundamentally something they've done wrong. And although you and I from the outside might want them to get out of that relationship because we see it's harming them, their impulse to make it work and to stay in it comes from a good place.

You've put it more clear than anyone I've spoken to about this, that the impulse to want to stay in this kind of let's call it, toxic relationship actually comes not from a good place. I'd say from the best place, which is our drive to love. And I think that when people can see themselves through that compassionate a lens, that it actually can foster healing and growth. Rather than I'm a damaged soul who's willing to settle for bread cross is, rather I am a healthy human being who wants to love, and this is what comes of loving somebody who's engaging in chronically betraying patterns.

You've put it more clear than anyone I've spoken to about this, that the impulse to want to stay in this kind of let's call it, toxic relationship actually comes not from a good place. I'd say from the best place, which is our drive to love. And I think that when people can see themselves through that compassionate a lens, that it actually can foster healing and growth. Rather than I'm a damaged soul who's willing to settle for bread cross is, rather I am a healthy human being who wants to love, and this is what comes of loving somebody who's engaging in chronically betraying patterns.

I think a place where I also see this happen is when the person being hurt isn't being hurt by say, an organization, their church, their team, their school, and they also love that organization and a very human desire and need an impulse to love extends not only to other people, but to the groups of people the organizations that were in particularly when you know we're in some sense its dependent on them, and so people will be like, why did I stay? You know, how did I first of all not see that there was this abuse going on in my church? And then why didn't I leave the church? Well, because they loved that organization and it was serving some important needs for them too, And so it is coming from the best place in us to love other people as well as other kinds of human things like whole organizations.

I think a place where I also see this happen is when the person being hurt isn't being hurt by say, an organization, their church, their team, their school, and they also love that organization and a very human desire and need an impulse to love extends not only to other people, but to the groups of people the organizations that were in particularly when you know we're in some sense its dependent on them, and so people will be like, why did I stay? You know, how did I first of all not see that there was this abuse going on in my church? And then why didn't I leave the church? Well, because they loved that organization and it was serving some important needs for them too, And so it is coming from the best place in us to love other people as well as other kinds of human things like whole organizations.

Right, And people also trust these organizations. It's not even about loving these organizations. I actually think we're more likely to trust organizations sometimes than individual people because it is an organization, it is bigger than us, and a person did trust this, you know, this takes me to think about, you know, taking it into a larger scale of like massive betrayal by an institution, not just an individual. I think of major betrayals like, let's use the US gymnastics scandal, where so many young women were betrayed by an organization. Even when they were bringing concerns up, they were being silenced, and so they were saying, well, the organization can't we love gymnastics, We love the sport. This is the governing body. We have to believe in it. It's almost implicit that they do trust these kinds of organizations, whether they be churches or guild organizations, or even employers or even institutions like the justice system.

Right, And people also trust these organizations. It's not even about loving these organizations. I actually think we're more likely to trust organizations sometimes than individual people because it is an organization, it is bigger than us, and a person did trust this, you know, this takes me to think about, you know, taking it into a larger scale of like massive betrayal by an institution, not just an individual. I think of major betrayals like, let's use the US gymnastics scandal, where so many young women were betrayed by an organization. Even when they were bringing concerns up, they were being silenced, and so they were saying, well, the organization can't we love gymnastics, We love the sport. This is the governing body. We have to believe in it. It's almost implicit that they do trust these kinds of organizations, whether they be churches or guild organizations, or even employers or even institutions like the justice system.

Yes, absolutely we see that. And you know, to some extent, the organizations also foster this emotional reaction. So the organizations will say, you know, we're your family, We're here for you. They will use the language of trust and dependence and care that builds upon our impulse to trust these organizations. I see this as related to the trust we have in our families. If we don't just have an individual we trust and love. Our earliest groups are families, and we have a term family betrayal in my lab which capture some of the ways that the group can betray people, and we find that it can be even sort of in sometimes more powerful than individual one on one betrayal, which makes sense because if a whole group is hurting you, like, that's pretty bad, that's pretty scary.

Yes, absolutely we see that. And you know, to some extent, the organizations also foster this emotional reaction. So the organizations will say, you know, we're your family, We're here for you. They will use the language of trust and dependence and care that builds upon our impulse to trust these organizations. I see this as related to the trust we have in our families. If we don't just have an individual we trust and love. Our earliest groups are families, and we have a term family betrayal in my lab which capture some of the ways that the group can betray people, and we find that it can be even sort of in sometimes more powerful than individual one on one betrayal, which makes sense because if a whole group is hurting you, like, that's pretty bad, that's pretty scary.

One thing you've wrote about in Blind to Betrayal you talk about leak cosmodes work on the social contract, this idea and evolutionary psychology that we actually are as human beings quite good at detecting betrayal, right, which is interesting because then that bangs up this idea of the social contract that there is a trust that comes into our relationships with individuals or group. Does that relate then into our inherent trust of big organizations, is that it's part of this trusting social contract that we have that we have to trust.

One thing you've wrote about in Blind to Betrayal you talk about leak cosmodes work on the social contract, this idea and evolutionary psychology that we actually are as human beings quite good at detecting betrayal, right, which is interesting because then that bangs up this idea of the social contract that there is a trust that comes into our relationships with individuals or group. Does that relate then into our inherent trust of big organizations, is that it's part of this trusting social contract that we have that we have to trust.

This, right. What's really important in both cosmuities ideas and mine is that we continue to interact with the same people or organizations over and over, and so if they mistreat us, then what we should do is detect that and then take protective action, and that brings us back to fight and flight. Yeah yeah, so that it doesn't happen again. Yeah yeah, But you know, when we're dependent, we don't have that option in the same way.

This, right. What's really important in both cosmuities ideas and mine is that we continue to interact with the same people or organizations over and over, and so if they mistreat us, then what we should do is detect that and then take protective action, and that brings us back to fight and flight. Yeah yeah, so that it doesn't happen again. Yeah yeah, But you know, when we're dependent, we don't have that option in the same way.

No, we don't use this term in the book that really stayed with me, which is this concept of the whoosh. We see the betrayal, We can even see the betrayal happening in real time. We're very aware that our trust is being betrayed, whether we catch someone in an infidelity or a lie. But this idea of the whoosh, could you talk about that?

No, we don't use this term in the book that really stayed with me, which is this concept of the whoosh. We see the betrayal, We can even see the betrayal happening in real time. We're very aware that our trust is being betrayed, whether we catch someone in an infidelity or a lie. But this idea of the whoosh, could you talk about that?

So this is something that some people experience more than others, and I think it has to do with the timing of when one's betrayal blindness sort of kicks in. So for some people, their betrayal blindnessabilities are so powerful they don't ever consciously see it, like they really don't. They can just not see it from the get go. For other people, they first catch a glimmer of something's just happened to me, and it's really not okay, And then there's a process that's going this is not safe to know, this is not at all safe to know, and that's when the woosh comes in and when they reflect back on the situation years later, some people are able to introspect and remember that progression from perceiving the problem to whushing it away just in time before they behave in a way that's going to get them into trouble.

So this is something that some people experience more than others, and I think it has to do with the timing of when one's betrayal blindness sort of kicks in. So for some people, their betrayal blindnessabilities are so powerful they don't ever consciously see it, like they really don't. They can just not see it from the get go. For other people, they first catch a glimmer of something's just happened to me, and it's really not okay, And then there's a process that's going this is not safe to know, this is not at all safe to know, and that's when the woosh comes in and when they reflect back on the situation years later, some people are able to introspect and remember that progression from perceiving the problem to whushing it away just in time before they behave in a way that's going to get them into trouble.

When you say behave in a way that's going to get them into trouble, what do you mean.

When you say behave in a way that's going to get them into trouble, what do you mean.

By that, like confront the person, Okay, show you know some way, rock the boat, right, because that's what they're really trying to avoid. They're trying to avoid destabilizing something they need. And you know, I think rocking the boat's just a great metaphor because if you rock the boat too much, the boat tips. I mean, you're really in trouble. So there's a reason we don't want to rock the boat.

By that, like confront the person, Okay, show you know some way, rock the boat, right, because that's what they're really trying to avoid. They're trying to avoid destabilizing something they need. And you know, I think rocking the boat's just a great metaphor because if you rock the boat too much, the boat tips. I mean, you're really in trouble. So there's a reason we don't want to rock the boat.

Right, right, That's exactly right. And I often call it also maintaining the status quo. I'm married to someone, we have kids, we have an extended family, we have a home, we have a life. That the woosh is getting that information out of the way just before you blow it all up, you know. And that what's not happening, though, Doctor Fried, is that there is not this secondary attention to the toll it's taking on the person who remains in the relationship. The focus becomes so heavily on the attachment on the status quo, on not rocking the boat. That what's getting missed is that inherent harm that is just happening under the radar and often then contributing to anxiety, mood symptoms like depression, helplessness, hopelessness, powerlessness, confusion, self blame, self doubt. So the person is psychologically getting destabilized and there's almost a false sense of safety. Status quo remains. But I'm falling apart, and that, to wit is the struggle of every survivor of narcissistic abuse. Maintain the status quo as I psychologically erode.

Right, right, That's exactly right. And I often call it also maintaining the status quo. I'm married to someone, we have kids, we have an extended family, we have a home, we have a life. That the woosh is getting that information out of the way just before you blow it all up, you know. And that what's not happening, though, Doctor Fried, is that there is not this secondary attention to the toll it's taking on the person who remains in the relationship. The focus becomes so heavily on the attachment on the status quo, on not rocking the boat. That what's getting missed is that inherent harm that is just happening under the radar and often then contributing to anxiety, mood symptoms like depression, helplessness, hopelessness, powerlessness, confusion, self blame, self doubt. So the person is psychologically getting destabilized and there's almost a false sense of safety. Status quo remains. But I'm falling apart, and that, to wit is the struggle of every survivor of narcissistic abuse. Maintain the status quo as I psychologically erode.

You put that so well, and I think what's a really important factor there is what happens if they don't maintain the status quo, And that then is hardly on the rest of us, right, It's what happens depends on the social context the person finds themselves in. If they're in a setting where rocking the boat on that relationship means they lose everything, truly, they lose their home, they lose all their other relationships, that's an untenable risk. But if they're in a situation where there's a safety net out there, there's going to be people that say here, come stay at my house, or you know, here's something for you. We will hold you through this period. That changes the equation. Then the cost and risk of staying is actually higher than the cost and risk of leaving. But which way that equation works out so depends on this larger context a person is in.

You put that so well, and I think what's a really important factor there is what happens if they don't maintain the status quo, And that then is hardly on the rest of us, right, It's what happens depends on the social context the person finds themselves in. If they're in a setting where rocking the boat on that relationship means they lose everything, truly, they lose their home, they lose all their other relationships, that's an untenable risk. But if they're in a situation where there's a safety net out there, there's going to be people that say here, come stay at my house, or you know, here's something for you. We will hold you through this period. That changes the equation. Then the cost and risk of staying is actually higher than the cost and risk of leaving. But which way that equation works out so depends on this larger context a person is in.

Absolutely, have you looked at betrayal blindness as sort of a cultural phenomenon as well, that even if we can clear out safety nets and all of that, that ultimately the cultural reject or the cultural shame around, for example, getting a divorce or becoming a strange from a family is so overwhelming that it then makes more sense to remain in blindness. What has your work taught you about that?

Absolutely, have you looked at betrayal blindness as sort of a cultural phenomenon as well, that even if we can clear out safety nets and all of that, that ultimately the cultural reject or the cultural shame around, for example, getting a divorce or becoming a strange from a family is so overwhelming that it then makes more sense to remain in blindness. What has your work taught you about that?

I haven't myself directly examined that so much, but some of my former students have taken that up, and one of the things that they have found is that especially for groups of people who are oppressed by mainstream culture, there's this need to have a protective sort of group with interracultural trust, and this is largely the work of Jennifer Gomez, and that then adds additional pressure to maintain the status quo when there's any kind of disruption within that group. So that adds to the cultural pressure to have betrayal blindness, and in that situation, it's coming in some sense from the fact that that's an oppressive larger context around that group. There's also cultural issues like is a society more collective or individualistic, and the pressure to maintain the collective harmony can be another component to betrayal blindness.

I haven't myself directly examined that so much, but some of my former students have taken that up, and one of the things that they have found is that especially for groups of people who are oppressed by mainstream culture, there's this need to have a protective sort of group with interracultural trust, and this is largely the work of Jennifer Gomez, and that then adds additional pressure to maintain the status quo when there's any kind of disruption within that group. So that adds to the cultural pressure to have betrayal blindness, and in that situation, it's coming in some sense from the fact that that's an oppressive larger context around that group. There's also cultural issues like is a society more collective or individualistic, and the pressure to maintain the collective harmony can be another component to betrayal blindness.

Absolutely, and I agree that the betrayal blindness is going to happen when it is a collective situation in which familial disruption or estrangement. There's just absolutely no space that could be held, and there would almost be greater harm through ostracism that would happen if a person did that, as well as a shame that it would bring upon the entire family. Yeah, this connects to one of the stories that was in your book, the story of someone you called Kevin in your book, and the story of Kevin hit me profoundly. I grew up in the nineteen seventies in the United States as well. What you captured in his story is that somebody who's not of majority race, and especially at that time in history, I still think it's an issue, but it was even more pronounced In Kevin's case, he was told that if he assimilated, good things would happen. But he played by all those rules in this larger system of the culture, of school, of education, all of that, and he was still ostracized, and that the betrayal blindness for him is this is fair, this is all fine. Yes, I can assimilate, and I'll play the sports that the other kids play, and I won't speak with an accent. I'll do all of that. And then he wakes up and realizes that, no, I'm still being ostracized. Could you reflect on that story of Kevin.

Absolutely, and I agree that the betrayal blindness is going to happen when it is a collective situation in which familial disruption or estrangement. There's just absolutely no space that could be held, and there would almost be greater harm through ostracism that would happen if a person did that, as well as a shame that it would bring upon the entire family. Yeah, this connects to one of the stories that was in your book, the story of someone you called Kevin in your book, and the story of Kevin hit me profoundly. I grew up in the nineteen seventies in the United States as well. What you captured in his story is that somebody who's not of majority race, and especially at that time in history, I still think it's an issue, but it was even more pronounced In Kevin's case, he was told that if he assimilated, good things would happen. But he played by all those rules in this larger system of the culture, of school, of education, all of that, and he was still ostracized, and that the betrayal blindness for him is this is fair, this is all fine. Yes, I can assimilate, and I'll play the sports that the other kids play, and I won't speak with an accent. I'll do all of that. And then he wakes up and realizes that, no, I'm still being ostracized. Could you reflect on that story of Kevin.

What Kevin does is he takes on what's essentially prejudice and discrimination. He takes it on as if it's his own individual failing. So if he doesn't get invited to a birthday party, it's because in some way he's failed to be popular, or if he's not selected for the sports team, it's because he's not a good enough athlete. And this taking it on as an individual problem as opposed to seeing it as a societal problem. In his case, he's an Asian American in a very white context where he doesn't understand and won't let himself understand that he's being mistreated on the basis of the fact that he's not white, and he's being othered and ostracized for being Asian American. If he were to see it that way, that would then put him in a conflictual relationship with everybody. He would be a victim of discrimination, and that's a very hard position to be in while also trying to maintain all those relationships and friendships. If it's his fault, if he's just not good enough student or athlete or whatever it is, then he can maintain those relationships.

What Kevin does is he takes on what's essentially prejudice and discrimination. He takes it on as if it's his own individual failing. So if he doesn't get invited to a birthday party, it's because in some way he's failed to be popular, or if he's not selected for the sports team, it's because he's not a good enough athlete. And this taking it on as an individual problem as opposed to seeing it as a societal problem. In his case, he's an Asian American in a very white context where he doesn't understand and won't let himself understand that he's being mistreated on the basis of the fact that he's not white, and he's being othered and ostracized for being Asian American. If he were to see it that way, that would then put him in a conflictual relationship with everybody. He would be a victim of discrimination, and that's a very hard position to be in while also trying to maintain all those relationships and friendships. If it's his fault, if he's just not good enough student or athlete or whatever it is, then he can maintain those relationships.

We're going to be so give a personal sort of disclosure here. My parents were actually told in the nineteen sixties when I was born, a pediatrician took them aside and said, still stop speaking Teluguta Teluguza language my parents speak from India. And they asked why because obviously I was picking up the language that was happening around and they said, well, because she'll have an accent and you need her to assimilate. They wanted me to be able to assimilate. That was the doctor setting out as a goal. So my parents stopped speaking that language directly to me. They would stop me when I'd respond, so I wouldn't have an accent, but they continued having their conversations. I just wasn't allowed to respond in that language, and over time, my comprehension of the language is one hundred percent. It's still the language they speak to me in primarily, but my responses are all in English and I don't speak with an accent. That was sort of the endgame, But that was sort of the sacrifice of assimilation. I lost a massive part of my culture. That still makes it difficult for me to communicate with family members. But to your point, when I tried to try out for the high school choir, I was discouraged from doing so because I sort of didn't look the part. When I didn't fit in, I just assumed that it's because I'm an unskilled, unpopular person, something that I still well. Again, so what I'm saying, these tentacles go deep. It's a way I still view myself. And so you really had to give up what would have been an incredibly important part of your history. You know, I wasn't able to communicate with my grandmother as well as I wanted to because of this, And it was all that what we're assimilating and isn't that wonderful, but it didn't work out. I even tried to pursue a career in the media when I graduated from college, and I was telling absolutely not people like you are back of camera. You're not front of camera. So I even think to myself, I brought food for lunch as a little kid, Indian food, and the kids would actually mock it or take it or bully around it. And I said to my mother and then it was all peanut butter and jelly from that point forward. But the other lunch was healthier and more palatable. But so how much of one's sense of self get stolen by this? And instead of making it about this is a racist system. My parents were so desperate to make it successful in the United States they did were like no, no, no, no, we're just not doing it right. So we internalized it. So Kevin's story hit me hard, and I never ever ever thought of that through a life of betrayal blindness. So I find this to be a really useful you know, it was really useful. I have to thank you more than anything. The gift that this book gave me was a personal one that it actually gave me a very different frame of reference. I thank you. Now I want to hit another story you had shared in the book, because I think it was such a powerful story that you open Blind to Betrayal with, which is the story of Julie, who is a successful attorney. Can you share that story from the book.

We're going to be so give a personal sort of disclosure here. My parents were actually told in the nineteen sixties when I was born, a pediatrician took them aside and said, still stop speaking Teluguta Teluguza language my parents speak from India. And they asked why because obviously I was picking up the language that was happening around and they said, well, because she'll have an accent and you need her to assimilate. They wanted me to be able to assimilate. That was the doctor setting out as a goal. So my parents stopped speaking that language directly to me. They would stop me when I'd respond, so I wouldn't have an accent, but they continued having their conversations. I just wasn't allowed to respond in that language, and over time, my comprehension of the language is one hundred percent. It's still the language they speak to me in primarily, but my responses are all in English and I don't speak with an accent. That was sort of the endgame, But that was sort of the sacrifice of assimilation. I lost a massive part of my culture. That still makes it difficult for me to communicate with family members. But to your point, when I tried to try out for the high school choir, I was discouraged from doing so because I sort of didn't look the part. When I didn't fit in, I just assumed that it's because I'm an unskilled, unpopular person, something that I still well. Again, so what I'm saying, these tentacles go deep. It's a way I still view myself. And so you really had to give up what would have been an incredibly important part of your history. You know, I wasn't able to communicate with my grandmother as well as I wanted to because of this, And it was all that what we're assimilating and isn't that wonderful, but it didn't work out. I even tried to pursue a career in the media when I graduated from college, and I was telling absolutely not people like you are back of camera. You're not front of camera. So I even think to myself, I brought food for lunch as a little kid, Indian food, and the kids would actually mock it or take it or bully around it. And I said to my mother and then it was all peanut butter and jelly from that point forward. But the other lunch was healthier and more palatable. But so how much of one's sense of self get stolen by this? And instead of making it about this is a racist system. My parents were so desperate to make it successful in the United States they did were like no, no, no, no, we're just not doing it right. So we internalized it. So Kevin's story hit me hard, and I never ever ever thought of that through a life of betrayal blindness. So I find this to be a really useful you know, it was really useful. I have to thank you more than anything. The gift that this book gave me was a personal one that it actually gave me a very different frame of reference. I thank you. Now I want to hit another story you had shared in the book, because I think it was such a powerful story that you open Blind to Betrayal with, which is the story of Julie, who is a successful attorney. Can you share that story from the book.

Julie was a woman who had, on the surface, totally succeeded in life. She had a really thriving profession and lived in a beautiful home, and you know, appeared to be a very happy person, and in a lot of ways was. But she told me about her past, and clearly she was still disturbed by this. In her past, she was in a different relationship where her spouse was cheating on her and abusing her. I believe financially she was utterly dependent on him and trapped in the house with him when she walked in on him one time kissing another woman. She was the first one to use that word woosh with me. She described seeing the kiss and somehow managing to wosh it out of her mind so that it wasn't there anymore. And it was in a public place too. I mean, it was kind of a remarkable feat of betrayal blindness, but it allowed her in this highly dependent situation to stay in relationship with her husband, who she believed in arguably really did need to stay with given her total lack of resources. She had no car, she had no money, she had no way to exist as far as she knew without him. And what's remarkable is that eventually she did find her way out. She had a young child, so it was particularly difficult, but she did find her way out and then managed to pursue her own goals and dreams, which is why by the time I talked to her she was this highly successful person.

Julie was a woman who had, on the surface, totally succeeded in life. She had a really thriving profession and lived in a beautiful home, and you know, appeared to be a very happy person, and in a lot of ways was. But she told me about her past, and clearly she was still disturbed by this. In her past, she was in a different relationship where her spouse was cheating on her and abusing her. I believe financially she was utterly dependent on him and trapped in the house with him when she walked in on him one time kissing another woman. She was the first one to use that word woosh with me. She described seeing the kiss and somehow managing to wosh it out of her mind so that it wasn't there anymore. And it was in a public place too. I mean, it was kind of a remarkable feat of betrayal blindness, but it allowed her in this highly dependent situation to stay in relationship with her husband, who she believed in arguably really did need to stay with given her total lack of resources. She had no car, she had no money, she had no way to exist as far as she knew without him. And what's remarkable is that eventually she did find her way out. She had a young child, so it was particularly difficult, but she did find her way out and then managed to pursue her own goals and dreams, which is why by the time I talked to her she was this highly successful person.

It's remarkable because I think that that framework of she literally saw her husband kissing another woman and still managed to wooh it out. You know, we often think like, Okay, there may be innuendo, there may be suspicion, but this was really happening in her face. One are the pieces that struck me about Julie's story was also that she went on into another relationship where this kind of betrayal happened again. So I mean, betrayal blindness is a mechanism that stays within us, so when it does happen again, we're likely to experience it again and repeat this in relational cycles. In her case though, and this is where it really coalesces with what we know about narcissistic abuse, Doctor Fried is this idea that as she became more autonomous, she actually came into her own as an attorney, she cultivated sources of support that actually was the path to healing and growth for her, which is exactly what we tell survivors of narcissistic abuse. My conversation will continue after this break.

It's remarkable because I think that that framework of she literally saw her husband kissing another woman and still managed to wooh it out. You know, we often think like, Okay, there may be innuendo, there may be suspicion, but this was really happening in her face. One are the pieces that struck me about Julie's story was also that she went on into another relationship where this kind of betrayal happened again. So I mean, betrayal blindness is a mechanism that stays within us, so when it does happen again, we're likely to experience it again and repeat this in relational cycles. In her case though, and this is where it really coalesces with what we know about narcissistic abuse, Doctor Fried is this idea that as she became more autonomous, she actually came into her own as an attorney, she cultivated sources of support that actually was the path to healing and growth for her, which is exactly what we tell survivors of narcissistic abuse. My conversation will continue after this break.

Yeah, and it makes sense that once somebody has used betrayal blindness to survive a situation, they'd be vulnerable to it again because there's an ability to detect betrayal that develops, you know, in childhood, when the child's in a situation in a context where they're allowed to develop that, and it's a very healthy ability. It lets the child know when the person that they're interacting with is safe or not safe. But if you have to suppress that to preserve a relationship, when you meet somebody new and they are they're not safe, they're a betrayal, you don't have the same ability as a person who's been allowed to freely develop it. So one of the things that happens when people heal is to redevelop that skill to learn how to make good decisions about who had to trust, how to hone in on the red flags, and to know when it's time to leave a relationship well.

Yeah, and it makes sense that once somebody has used betrayal blindness to survive a situation, they'd be vulnerable to it again because there's an ability to detect betrayal that develops, you know, in childhood, when the child's in a situation in a context where they're allowed to develop that, and it's a very healthy ability. It lets the child know when the person that they're interacting with is safe or not safe. But if you have to suppress that to preserve a relationship, when you meet somebody new and they are they're not safe, they're a betrayal, you don't have the same ability as a person who's been allowed to freely develop it. So one of the things that happens when people heal is to redevelop that skill to learn how to make good decisions about who had to trust, how to hone in on the red flags, and to know when it's time to leave a relationship well.

I often call it the privilege of not having had a betraying childhood, because it is a privilege if you have a childhood that is not emotionally abusive. It's a privilege that cuts across anyone, even if they're unprivileged or underprivileged. In other areas. It's a huge privilege because it allows you to maintain that critical intuition that you can take into adult relations. So blessed are those who are not betrayed, because they really really do get to hold on to something so so important. It's also interesting in the story you told of Julie in your book, was that yes, he was sleeping with other women, he was sleeping with her friends, all of that, but her husband also she had a new baby at home, and he was electing. After all week away, his first stop when he came back into a town wasn't to go to see his new baby and his wife. He'd stop and have drinks with his friends that bar. We don't typically think of that as a betrayal, but that is also a betrayal.

I often call it the privilege of not having had a betraying childhood, because it is a privilege if you have a childhood that is not emotionally abusive. It's a privilege that cuts across anyone, even if they're unprivileged or underprivileged. In other areas. It's a huge privilege because it allows you to maintain that critical intuition that you can take into adult relations. So blessed are those who are not betrayed, because they really really do get to hold on to something so so important. It's also interesting in the story you told of Julie in your book, was that yes, he was sleeping with other women, he was sleeping with her friends, all of that, but her husband also she had a new baby at home, and he was electing. After all week away, his first stop when he came back into a town wasn't to go to see his new baby and his wife. He'd stop and have drinks with his friends that bar. We don't typically think of that as a betrayal, but that is also a betrayal.

Yes, I mean, I think this is something that you're identifying. Is so important that we have duties in relationships, Yes, and for close intimate relationships there are particular responsibilities and duties, and so it's a betrayal to not fulfill those duties.

Yes, I mean, I think this is something that you're identifying. Is so important that we have duties in relationships, Yes, and for close intimate relationships there are particular responsibilities and duties, and so it's a betrayal to not fulfill those duties.

Correct. Correct, Thank you for putting it that way, because I think that that's it. There are duties in a relationship, and you know, to not that is the betrayal. As you know, my work, doctor Fried is in the area of narcissism. And if you have developed an acronym that perfectly sums up the most damaging sort of interpersonal pivot that happens in any kind of toxic relationship, can you talk about your acronym and tell us where you came up with this, because this to me, when I use this, it's a game changer.