Wine down with Janet Kramer and I heard radio podcast, So I've got a lot to share about what um I went and did and it was very hard but good work. And I think and step in the right direction, and I'm excited to share. I'm just gonna I'm still processing and I think in time, you know, I'll sprinkle it, you know, help us all out, give us some give us some tips. It's good, it's good, it's good. It's just you know, it's it's it's hard work doing doing the work as hard work as you as you know and as you're going through and um, but I think it's good work, and i think it's important work to do. Sure, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. Are you giving me jesus? Hi? Hi? How I do feel a little bad. We found out that Catherine was getting a divorce and that's very sad. And I made a flippant, insensitive comment at the end that is this pot is at the pot Caffe's fault because the track record for relationships isn't great and that was rude, and I apologize it was a little rude. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, this is yes, I agree, and I'm sorry. It's just that was my first reaction was oh, not Catherine too, Like that was my honest first reaction when when I was told what had happened, I was like, Oh, that's that's so sad. And now you know you're well, you know, it's just times change. Mm hmm. I think I think it's interesting because I think people like would say that though, like but someone that I wouldn't like, I know, I know what you were trying to say, something like I totally know there was it was a funny ha ha that was the point. Yeah, but I think people actually would say that, Yeah, that's the sad part. Yeah, Like you know, like people would say in comments like oh she drives every man to cheat or or um, you know, of course her husband believe she was having sex with him, or you know what I mean, or like people like it's like they say things and then they're like too, and it's just that's what's like hurtful because it's like when you don't really know, but what you were saying was just more of like a yeah, but maybe that triggered a little bit of like people may really say that. The trolls could say that, you know, Jane has putting ideas and her friends that she got out and they got to get out because there is a stat to that. By the way, you're much likely to much more likely to get divorced if your friend gets a divorce. Yes, it jumps up, jumps up. Yeah, well that's not what I was saying, but there is something to that. Look, I will say this if anyone and Cat has been there, like she saw me the last year, she saw me the first month. If I was someone that saw that, I'd be like, I ain't getting divorced. I don't want to go through that. That that does not look fun, you know. And if anything, I almost think the reverse, because I'm like and then going into the dating and doing all that work. It's like to me, I'm like, I wouldn't I would if I would if I was like watching myself like I'm staying in my marriage, you know. And again, which is why I said, like I would have, because I'm like, all that other stuff is just like it's work regardless, right, And but um, you know that that is interesting. I've never haven't heard that stuff. But well, I think the reason it happens is because and I'm not saying this for you, too at all. I'm just saying in general, I think there's a perception of when your friend a bunch of friends in the marriage and one of them gets out of their marriage, they see they only see that upside. They see like, look at her, she's going out with the friend. You have so much fun. Oh my gosh, that guy she did it is so hot. Oh my gosh, look at her, she's just going around and having a blast. She's because the graph is always greener. What divorced person are you seeing that done that? Definitely? I would have no. No, And that's not been me the last year either, Like, yes, I've I've gone on some dates and yes, I you know that has me hives, But like I there's no part that was like I am going out with my girls. You know what my girls are doing, They're taking their kids to dance, and I'm like I'm I'm texting and going can you guys come over? Like and they're like no, I got to run him to there and heard there and it's like, m which is you know, the unfortunate part of why I think I jumped into things is because I wanted, like that, that thing to help fill that void. Um. But yeah, I mean there's there's the least this this hot girl sum rain, hot girl summer like it's and it wasn't hot girl summer last year either. It was more like crying and like, you know, being alone and like it's not going Like we went to Miami once and it was my divorce party, Like and I didn't go to Miami from a divorce. Um, that's just not my personality though, so at all. Yeah, I mean I'm not excited to date. I'm not. I don't like to go out, you know, like that would that part of it, But isn't there isn't there is always green or element, not just necessarily and divorcing, but justn't like single people they just want to get married and they just want to find somebody. But marry people are kind of like, oh, that must be so nice to have that freedom and do whatever you want. I think there is some of that I agree with that. I would agree with that for sure. I would agree with that in a in a sense because I mean if people liked to go out and saw you going out, that would be starting it fun, you know, yeah, and look I'm watching you. No offense not appealing to anyone but listen, that was hard. I didn't. I didn't want to get divorced. That's the thing, Like I was. I didn't. I didn't want to get divorced. I was a mess. Like no part of me ever wanted to divorce that man. Ever, Like I had no choice. Our circumstances are just so different. It's just so different. I mean, there was so much wrong there. We've been having issues for years, just kind of swept him under the rug and just decided to live, you know, just going just very very very different circumstances, like nothing even similar. So I don't think that you could even I do get the other, you know, the other side. But I think it's like it's hard being single, it's hard being in a relationship, it's hard being married, it's hard being you know, doing doing the work. It's like it's all just kind of hard. But at the same time, like I mean, now I see the greener side, Like now I'm so thankful to be where I'm at and I'm and I'm thankful to be single, and I'm thankful to be you know, in a in a good spot. And I think you'll you're already seeing that, which is amazing, Like it's interesting though, like because my my unhealthyness love last year of like I just like I don't want to be alone, like because I thought a man could feel that void, right, and it's like that's not even on yours. So it's like it's interesting, like how you know, how we how different we think too. I'm I like to be alone. I'm a loner and that's the whole thing with you. I'm like, you get to be alone. I know you were, And maybe there was an aspect of that sure that I looked at her and I'm like, man, she doesn't see and value that, whereas I felt like I would, you know, so maybe there is a part of that that was like man, like she gets to be on her own and work on things and do this. And that was Yes, that was very much appealing to me in the sense of like I want to have that time. I want to have that time to work on myself and be happy and you know, so I think in a good way. Yes, maybe it definitely did help watching well. I will say it took me a year to get to where you are, like that that part like now I'm like, oh, I'm so excited like to like because I think healthy attracts healthy, and I think I was so unhealthy in certain areas that I'm I'm really excited to like really like you know, and a lot of stuff that I did this past weekend is the start of that, and and and and not putting an emphasis on like my worth is not dependent on a relationship, and I think I've always put it on that because of all my daddy stuff. But then that's basically I'm going to talk more about it, but I'm also going to get the person that runs the place on here and so um, that's going to be a that's when I'll dive deeper into that work because it's just, um, realizing you're worth might take a little while, but when you do, when you dig deep, it's a it's a it's a good place to be. So um. But before uh, we do that, we're gonna have Mary Ellen on because we are going to talk about boundaries. So let's take a break and get around Hi mary Ellen. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna say a girl for like one Okay, can I can I finger on you? Because you're so cute? Thank you, You're so pretty, You're like, I love your office, You're adorable. Um, thank you. This is um. You know the sticky wallpaper that I got for like a dollar at Target. I'm I love it. Well, I'm Jemna. This is Catherine. Okay, you can you can. You can totally fan girl if you want. Let's do this, Okay. So it's really funny that I'm about to talk about boundaries because I'm going to cross one right now, and I just have to ask you what it's like kissing Stephen Coletti. That's a good question coming from the boundary queen herself. Um, she's asking such a personal question. Um, you know, how was it kissing Stephen? I love Stephen Coletti? I really do. And I hope he doesn't hear this. He I've had better, but I I love Stephen, and I think you know, we we had like our chemistry, wasn't UM like that, you know what I mean? Like we we had more of like a brother sister chemistry. So I think that also UM impacted those scenes because I mean literally would be like making out and then we'd be like, so are we gonna have Caesar salad? And then like what else do you think they're gonna have at lunch today? And like we just we didn't have like I don't think we were necessarily like because he was younger. I was, like I was in a relationship, and I mean, not that that matters. Well, no, it does matter, but I'm saying like what I meant for acting and like, you know, like you can still have chemistry with someone. Um, but yeah, I mean he's you know, you know, yeah Alex. Alex enjoyed it, Janna, you know I was. I was too into you know. Yeah, that was just it was just the job. I wasn't like paying attention to, like, oh, this kiss is amazing. Trying to think who the best kisser was though that I've ever like on screen kiss must be so awkward. Um, it is. It is very awkward the first time, like when you are about to um, Like the first kiss is always the most awkward kiss because you're like like I'm you know, most of the time I've been in a relationship when I've filmed some and so it's like, oh, like this just feels weird too, but also like it's just that first kiss. It's like you're gonna have butterflies regardless, Right, that's funny. I didn't think about that. If you have butterflies before kissing on screen. Well, I mean I because I'm like, it's not just like it's like but then afterwards, like then then this just goes away. So who was the best I'm trying to remember. I can't. I mean, I haven't like had like a bad, bad one, but the best I don't know. I mean they've all been like like the whole Marky kisses, you know, So it's not like I don't want to say anyways, I'm gonna put a boundary up and hold that one for myself for you, but y'all can go fire off in the comments and take a guess because it's ye's sweet and that's weird. Um but anyhow, um okay, So I'm very excited to have you. So you're a One Tree Hiller? Oh yeah, oh yeah, well I'm thirty two, so I was like write the age range as like it was coming out. So yeah, I mean, who isn't a One Tree Hiller? Let's be honest, right, Um? So, but you contacted? So you do you listen to the podcast? I do? I do. It's so funny because I talked about boundaries all the time. People make fun of me for talking about boundaries all the time. I am a therapist, so it's appropriate in a lot of ways, but also in my personal life, like my dad, who's not a therapist. He's in his seventies. He's like, since when did this word boundaries become so popular? Like I never heard that were like before you um So yeah. I was walking my dog and listening to um your podcast and you were talking about how you needed someone to talk about boundaries and I was like, I can do that. You're like, pick me, I can do this. So there was something that you said in your I believe it was your email to Catherine, because you email Catherine and you said something like you don't even is it that you don't like to put the word boundaries or there's something that I was like, oh, this is an interesting thought. So recently I have been seeing boundaries everywhere and it's kind of similar to you know, gas lighting is gaslighting? Yeah, all of these things that are being talked about everywhere. And I had a client coming the other day that was like, yeah, so I told them to f off because I was setting a boundary and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, Setting a boundary is not an excuse to like, you know, be mean to people. And I've been hearing it more in that way of like, oh, well, I can set a boundary and just shook these people out of my life and maybe that's your boundary. But boundaries are so much more nuanced than that, and I worry that people are getting this message of like you're either in my life or you're out of my life, and that's what a boundary is. And it's like no, no, no, no, no, like any healthy relationship is going to have boundaries to Does that make sense? Yeah, it does, it does. Yeah, it's almost like it's almost like and this is another word like stonewalling. So it's like I think that the keywords in narcissist stone walling, gas lighting, uh, boundaries. And having said all that, though, it is very interesting to look at all of those things and go oh wow, like that helps explain certain things are like oh, like I think I've done one or so of those, like I'm gonna make sure like I didn't know that I'm saying I'm sorry you feel that way is a gaslighting comment, you know. So it's like kind of recognizing going oh, shoot, well how do I change that? Or um, but I think when it comes to two boundaries with that, it almost thinks like just to shut someone out seems like a very stonewalling I don't know, but again I'm trying to learn. Also love bombing. It's another one that is one been used, um and so yeah, but I'm curious, like, is that is that a part of that? Like would that go into the stonewalling chapter? Maybe? You know, because I'm all about boundaries. I love setting boundaries. I love talking about them, but I do get worried that we're like missing the point, you know, and sometimes we're going to say goodbye. I don't need you in my life anymore. Absolutely, But most of the time when we're setting boundaries, it's to actually keep people in our lives in a healthy way and a happy way, so that we don't become resentful of them, so that we don't you know, hate them in ten years. That kind of thing I love. I love that we just said boundaries are actually to keep people in your life, not to not have them in your life. Right, And of course there's certain people that maybe we just you know, we shouldn't they shouldn't be in our lives or we shouldn't be in their lives, but boundaries, Like any healthy relationship, you want boundaries that can make the relationship healthier to know, kind of like where your role ends and my role begins. And that's really what boundaries are supposed to be, right Like I know what my side of the street is, and I know what your side of the street is, and I'm going to make sure over here is clean, and I'm going to make sure I don't go into your side of the street when I'm not supposed to. So what is what's what's healthy boundaries in a relationship that you think or is it something that where it's it's only based upon um what's right? Like what's in their relationship? I guess I think, I mean, I like, it's obviously very dependent on the relationship and the type of relationship, but I think healthy boundaries are when neither person in the relationship, whether it's a friendship or a family member or a romantic relationship, when neither person is making decisions out of guilt, out of fear of the other person leaving them, or fear of the other person being mad or being rejected, like so often we're making decisions based out of those feelings versus based out of what's best for me, what's best for the relationship, what's best for this person, how do you stick to because that's that's my that's my biggest thing. So I have like there's you know, certain boundaries that I have let people, and I will say, um, I've also stepped over certain boundaries too in my past relationships, and um, so I'll let's start with let's start with that. So, if if I was to cross the boundary, is it the person and vice versa? Is it the person to set the What happens when you cross the boundary? Is that? Like what do you do from from? From then? Like let's say it's like, okay, no more slamming doors. I slammed a door. You don't even make if the boundaries do not slam the door in the house and I in the door. So here's the thing. People don't change like that. So I think if we're working with people, if I'm trying to set a boundary with you and you forget or you don't do it, but you have the good intentions and you want to have a productive conversation about it, and you apologize and say, Okay, I understand why this is crossing your boundary. That's a whole different story versus I'm just slamming the door and like not taking into consideration what you want, you know, because I think I think the other problem is a lot of the time when people are crossing our boundaries, they don't even know. Like that's a very good example of Okay, this person knows that you don't like slamming doors. Like for me, if I'm in a relationship, like name calling is now okay, Like that's a huge boundary of mine that I sat right from the beginning. But I've been in relationships where you know, in the heat of the moment, there's been name calling, but then there's been the oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. That's my fault. I take responsibility for this. I know I crossed the boundary. I'm going to do this to make sure I don't cross that boundary again. I respect that boundary. Uh um. And I think that like those conversations are so different than the why are you mad at I slammed the door? Sure? Yeah. Um. So for example, like let's say one of my boundaries is, um, you know, I if if you lie to me, that's that's a huge boundary for me lying, Yeah, what happens then if that person lies, what am I supposed to do? Like, because in my mind, I'm like, I know now that I can't be with anyone that has well, it's just so hard this and this is where this is where this is where the boundaries get so gray, is because I'm like, I get it's very hard to be honest. I get that I've I haven't been honest at times. So but now knowing my season of healing and growth and stuff, when I say, you know, if you were to lie about this this subject, this would be catastrophic in the relationship, Like if you were to lie about cheating on your wife or whatever, you know what I mean. Like, let's just say that example, like and you I find out then, like when I find out, it's like, but that's such a bound like the lie instead of really the act, it's like the lie. So what do you do with that? Because I feel like lying is such a big boundary. Lying is huge. So I think that what you do with that says more about you than the other person. Okay, please talk to me more about that, because I talk to me about about that. And yeah, so this is a great example So if I say, lying, is you a huge boundary? You know? First date, this is my boundary. Do you have anything to tell me? Okay, fifth date, do you have anything to tell me? Do you have anything to tell me? And then this person comes back to me and I find out in kind of a not so great way and they don't They're not honest with me. You know, it would be one thing. I think if someone comes to you and it's like I wasn't honest with you honestly, is hard. We were just getting to know each other. Now that we know each other well, right, like, I think that can be something worked with. But if I find out in another way and I'm upsetting, you cross my boundary and then I decide to forgive it. Forgive is the wrong word because forgiveness is good. I decide to move past it, and you know, violate that boundary. Why am I doing that? Am I doing that because I trust you and I believe that people make mistakes and you made a mistake. Or Am I doing it because I'm getting other needs met from you and I don't want to, you know, give up those other needs I'm getting met from by you. So I'm just going to ignore this huge, big need because I'm getting these other little needs that, um, you know, am I doing it because I don't want to feel rejected or insecure or alone or any of those feelings. I think that figuring out why you're doing that is the huge piece of the puzzle. Mm hmm. That's good. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, it's a very good point. And also realizing that that's probably that's a that's that kind of boundary is something that shouldn't be crossed essentially too well, and realizing like I think values are a good kind of like baseline to decide our boundaries. Right, So you have a big value of honesty. I mean I do too. I'm guessing you do too, Catherine. I think a lot of people do. But I will say like I do, like I'm a big like you know, twenty four hour grace. You know, Okay, I I wasn't honest that I'd like to correct that, Like I'm all about a correction of a lie. But that's so different because that's someone coming and saying, hey, I need to be honest. That's such a different way about things than finding out about lacks. It's just too completely different ways to lie in my opinion, you know what I mean, I don't know it, just absolutely agree. And I think it also is like helping the other person to under and it's not other people's responsibilities to understand all of our inner workings, but helping the other person to understand this is why this is a boundary for me. This is why this is a trigger for me. And if I'm overreacting, like okay, let me know, also recognize that this is what it feels like to me. So for me, it's not an overreaction for me. This is you know, having that person understand where that's coming from, and maybe they just won't care and they'll be kind of a jerk about it, or maybe that will like add some more to the story, if that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, I think right, yes, So writing down like so for me it would be like, okay, these are things that like cheating, no go like in the relationship, lying about you know some that stuff that like that would be like I feel like all that stuff would like and has triggered me in my past because of past experiences. Granted worked through them, but still I was gonna say, I think too again, is how people handle it that is also so triggering for you. It's not about someone lying to you. I mean it is, but it's not just about them lying to you. It's how they handle it. It's how they speak to you, It's how it's you know what I mean. It's it's so encompassed and so many other things you're finding out about someone lying them not even being honest when you bring the lie, it's just digging a hole. That's so many triggers. It's not just a simple lie. Well, and we also work based on muscle memory. So if someone is lying about lying, you have I mean, I know that's from listening to your podcast. You have been in a position before where people have lied to you about lying, and so like our brains and our bodies have muscle memories. So when someone is lying to you about lying again, and then you're triggered, you're going to go back to that place that you're so comfortable in of guilt and fear and insecurity and detective and like all of it. Like yeah, just like all the fear, all the like question. And that's I'm like, I don't want to play I'm not playing detective, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, and then you start helping out of your fear. Yeah. Yeah, is that how you to make decisions? Like? Do you want to be making fear based decisions? And I feel like that's how most people make their boundaries or lack there up right. I don't want this person to be mad at me. Oh, I don't want to, you know, create this situation. So I'm not going to say this boundary, But that's not you know what's underneath that fear is underneath that fear. Okay, I'm having this fear because I'm in this situation where someone's lying to me about lying and this is this is kind of my muscle memory reaction, And how do I actually want to make this decision? Does that make any sense? It doesn't. Yeah, it absolutely does, because I think if I was to be faced in that kind of next situation, I think I would if that was to happen again, I'd be like, Nope, I can't because I know my nervous system remembers all the trauma from previous relationships that I would be like, I don't like the version of who that person who I become. And also I know for myself, I actually do deserve better than that you know now, So it's like I think that's like, but sticking to that boundary has always been such a hard thing because of the conditions and what I have been conditioned to believe and what I've believed in myself. Right, so it's like, you know, that's that's where it becomes that like battle with like this person going, you know, my one side going like you know, you deserve so much about it, don't stay, don't stay. And then everyone's like, well, you do deserve it, you know, like you're you're not working, you know what I mean. Like it's like it's like this like nick nick mip, yeah, well and you know so I do E M D R two. I love that you promote that, by the way, But you know that like trauma gets stuck, It gets stuck in our brain, and so those places where it's still stuck, we kind of like revert right back to that um and then and then we become exactly that person that we don't want to be. And you know, I think it's tough too, because if we're interacting with people who respect that, you know, maybe it won't be as nice of a conversation as like, oh I respect that boundary. It won't be as to use that, but it can be Okay, I hear where you're like, I see why this is triggering you, And I didn't mean it that way, but like, let's kind of rewind and figure out how we can do this together, right because that person or whoever you know we're in relationships with have their own boundaries too, and we have to make sure we're also not crossing those boundaries, which I'm sure we accidentally do sometimes, and so figuring out almost like new boundaries together also, you know, um new boundaries of like how do you stick to it? Though? Like when you know, how do you can just hold my hand to the fire, I will stick to my boundary? How do you just like, how do you just do that? You just have to do it so you recognize when you're making like fear guilt based decisions, and if you're making a fear guilt based decision, you call Catherine and say, I'm about to make a bad decision, right like that, Guys have to show my friends with the boundaries. I mean usually I would like not tell them anything because I wouldn't want them to like hate the person I find out later, It's fine, you know, if they have a reason to hate the person, then be a good sign. That might be is hard, but the thing is the person that we need to set boundaries with. Our people are acting in the only way they know how. They're not I'm not I don't want to say they're not doing anything wrong because like I think lying is wrong or you know, some some things are wrong, but like, they're not purposely doing anything. This is how they function. Like, this is how they function. And I'm a therapist. I believe people can change, but people have to want to change and be willing to have those conversations. So if you're trying to set a boundary with someone and they're still lying to you or they're trying to blame you or getting defensive or whatever, like that is the way they know how to act. And so if this is the only way they know how to act, they're going to keep acting that way. And by me continuing to do what I'm doing, that's continuing to reinforce them acting this way. So like I am actually encouraging them to act this way by not studying a boundary, by not sticking to my boundary. Oh that's that's a really, really good that's so true. Are you looking at that well, because I'm just thinking through like you can't really like they that's how they act, like she said, like that's how they know to react and act. So like what's going to change that? And then if you're essentially enabling them to act that way because you allow it, like how do you change that cycle? Right? And it's kind of like yeah, I mean my ex would say, like I knew I could still cheat because you know you wouldn't leave. I knew you would never leave. What stopping it was like even though I was always like, give you do it one more time, I'm not a here, But of course it's like like you said, it's like that's the what's preventing you from sticking to that? Oh? It was all like my lack of self worth and believing that I deserved it or that it was my fault or um, and that I just you know, they've done so much work around that now like now and now I know it now, it's just sticking to it. I think, like, um, one thing that might be I was about to say fun, but probably not fun, but like ask yourself, like these things that you now believe about yourself or that you're starting to believe and want to believe even more. Would a person like take yourself out of it? What a person who believes I deserve this, I want this, you know this that and the other what would they do? You know, what would that person do? Because I'm like fifty percent there, but I'm not like a hundred percent there yet, and so what would the hundred percent person do? And kind of do something, you know, based out of that. And the other thing is setting boundaries are way more uncomfortable for us than it is for the other person, way more uncomfortable. Like it's that other person who's lying and you know, acting the way they know how to act. They're not uncomfortable. They're acting how they've always acted, and us stepping out of our comfort zone and like increasing that, increasing that anxiety and saying, here's my boundary or this is what I'm doing. Like that's so uncomfortable, And so that may be a reason you're not sticking to them. Also is because it's just weird. You're not used to it. Like if you have never stuck to the the boundaries, you don't know what that's like. I feel like a lot of times in in my previous um like situations where it's it's a lot of like um shift like shifting blame. So it's like you start to think like, oh, well, it's my fault that they went and did that, or it's my fault that because of my you know, and so that then you like you take on what there, you take on that stuff. And that's that's also knowing now that that's not true. But I think that happens a lot as well. Like women take on what they say, well, you kicked me out of the house and so or well you know, you were yelling, or you were needy, or you were this, or you were that, and and they believe what they're being told. Yeah, and it's like, well, yeah, I was, I was being a little bit of a bit, sure I was, you know. So then they take on the blame for the person's actions. I think one thing that helps with that because for me, like if I'm in a relationship and they come and blame me and they're like, well you were being kind of a bit, you were being kind of needy. Uh, and someone tells me like, you're not a bit, You're not needy, I wouldn't believe them. So like what helps me in those moments. It is like, Okay, even if I was being a little needy, let's say I was being a little needy, Okay, they still shouldn't do that, Like, okay, that's still not okay, and then hopefully work up to the point of I'm not a bit, I'm not needy, I'm awesome, I'm deserving, right, But we can't go from zero to a hundred. We have to kind of start small. And so if you're in a place where like logically you know you're deserving, but emotionally you don't feel it yet, maybe say to yourself, Okay, I don't feel deserving, and maybe I'm not deserving a better or maybe I don't feel whatever yet, and I'm working towards that, and what they're doing is still not okay. It it doesn't make it okay. Oh like I slammed the door, I was the one that did something wrong. Okay, we can apologize for that because we're humans and not do it again. And that doesn't make it okay for them to lie. And I feel like it's become this like back and forth of who to blame, like you're saying and it's like, no, I don't care if you were being a bit, they shouldn't do that. M Yeah, that's it's interesting. Yeah, it is, it's very interesting. Yeah, And I think that like we should also and I said it a little bit, but with boundaries, like also look at like we we have functions of our behaviors. So there's a reason we do things. There's a reason you're not sticking to your boundaries. Is that reason? You know, it's muscle memory, it's comfort. Is that reason because you know they're meeting other needs for you that like you don't want to let go of. I think figuring out those reasons will also help you stick to those boundaries because then you'll know kind of the missing piece that Okay, they're meeting this need for me, but let me go find that need elsewhere so I can keep these boundaries up here. Yeah, I mean, and and I've realized like through through work and stuff, it's like that that is it was that need was like being wanted and loved. You know, it was loved enough you know to like because I put worth and that you know in relationships and like that that defines because of you know, won't go into the child and stuff now, but yeah, that's you know, it makes so much sense. It's a definitely like a lightbulb kind of moment. But I think you're right, Like, once you are in that healthy spot and you do believe that, like your your boundaries will be UM will be better. And I think even for you Cat like you're you, you realize that too. Like you, you're so aware of of what you need. Yeah, and I think that's a a great place to be in two. Yes, I feel like I am, but I think there's a lot of needs out there that I haven't tapped into that I have to, like you know what I mean, I can be very aware, but at the same time, like there's a lot of work I need to do to figure out how to be a healthier version of myself. But I think we all have work too, And that's the thing, Like I I don't. I don't think you stop healing and growing. I think you continue to do that so um and that is you know, boundaries is not just relation and ship, you know, I think the boundaries and friends and I think we've you know, set certain boundaries of people in our life too. So I don't And it's okay if you don't want them in your life anymore. I think there's a healthy way right to be like this is just isn't healthy or springing up stuff and um, I don't like that's one sided or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I think that's going to happen with lots of you know, there are times where it's like, Okay, this relationship is not serving me, it's not healthy. There's way too many unhealthy things unhealthy So you know, we're just gonna have to part our ways, which is totally it's normal. Um, but you mentioned something interesting, Janna. You mentioned that, like you know that your need is for love, and so if you have a need of respect, but you're like craving the love, like that is going to trump the respect every single time if that's what you're craving, because that's also a human need, like we all need that, um, And so like, is there a way to and not to put you on the spot, you don't have to answer this, but is there a way to get that need for respect up there at that same level as the need for like love and validation? Well, that's to love myself. When I love myself, like loving myself gets me the respect because I will adds to the same respect. It's kind of like how I've realized it. That makes sense. It's hard to do though, Yeah, especially like when you've been conditioned like a certain way. Like I'm sure you know people if you've been a condition to a certain way to not be if you're not affectionate, like and now you're like, that's your conde's your conditioning. It's like I've always been conditioned to be affectionate and love and so weird to be the opposite. Yeah, I mean since I was in a high school, Like when Matthew broke up with me my you know, my high school sweetheart, I was like devastating, you know, because then like but I put so much because that was like my first boyfriend after my parents divorce, and like you know, and it's like again someone like so it's like that has just been so routined and I don't know, like you know, you're growing up in an not very physical household, it's like you you get routined into these um places where that's just what you want and crave or not wanting, you know. Um. So I think it's interesting too, because like I think what we crave and what we need are two different things. I mean, sometimes I think they can overlap, but sometimes I think they're different. And like Catherine was saying, like I feel like our needs, they're changing all the time, and I don't know all my needs. And sometimes I'm like, Okay, I feel like I need to set a boundary. I feel like something's not feeling right, but I don't know what that is. And so that's another thing with sticking to boundaries, Like maybe they're maybe we need to like tweak them for you, like not to have people you know lie to you and for you to accept that, But like what is that maybe for you? You're just like nope, I'm done. Like I know other people can have conversations about this and get past this, but I can't because if I have a conversation about it, I'm gonna get sucked back into that craving and this is my need over here. So you know, maybe like changing that boundary for yourself in a way that you will stick to it. Yeah, I think I will. I know I have. I know I will now because I love myself enough to know that I deserve respect and love. There you go, there you go. It's amazing. Friends that will beat me if I don't know, but they're foundering. No, but I mean at the end of the day, like it's like I'm good, like I've got like my focus is my like babies, babies and kiddos. I don't need love is not going to be. Being in a relationship is now is not going to validate my worth and I always wanted it to. I've always put it will not be the thing to validate my worth. And and I I look up to you, cat because you don't seeing you strong, It's like that's not it's going okay. I I don't need to put that all that worth in that basket because that's not what it is. You know, I've I don't, I don't, I don't need that. I would love it one day, you know. I love a relationship, but not the wrong one I've I've been in the wrong ones before. I don't. I don't need to be and not. I don't want to set healthy boundaries too, not to not do that again and again it's not fun. I don't want to have to go to a place again first one for we just have someone coming. I think figuring out our needs like as they're ever changing, is important to because like I've dated plenty of douche bags, and I'm like, wait, this guy who's like not that great is telling me I'm not Like, this doesn't make sense. Like I almost had like well, I had a bunch of maha moments, but like finally the aha moment that stuck with me was like I was like, wait, I know that. I'm like, you know, worth a lot more than like what they're giving me. And like this person who's like not very nice, not very attractive, not very six you know, all that doesn't make a person's worth obviously, obviously, but I was like, why am I listening to that person instead of listening to all these other people over here and what they're telling me. Yeah. Yeah, that's the little light bomb moments, like listen to what your friends say, you know, when they say you deserve it like you do. Yeah, I'm sure if they're good friends, they're gonna be honest with you. Yeah. And you have a podcast too, right? I do. I have a podcast. It's called the okay Ish Podcast and what could what do you? What do you? What do you talk about? On there? Is? It? Is it okay Ish? Like what do you? What do you? Yeah, it's all about like mental health in this world today, So I talk about things that are so trendy, like you know, gas lighting and empowerment and all of that. There's lots of you know, being positive is great, but there's lots of like toxic positivity. That's where the name okay ish came from. Like it's you know, it's not realistic to be amazing every single day and that's okay. And being able to like manage these things. So it's a lot of kind of like translating trendy mental health terms and being able to talk about all of that. I love that. UM. So our listeners can find you on the okay ish podcasts in the where else um On Instagram, I am pretty active and it's mary Ellen Dance. Is there anything you want to leave us with boundary wise or anything else with any of the other hot topic words out there? Um, just that sticking to boundaries is going to help your relationship. Like whatever next relationship you get into or friendships or whatever that are going to be healthy will have good boundaries. Like there's no way you can have a healthy relationship without some good boundaries, and so thinking of it in a good way and no, this is going to strengthen us if we have the boundaries like that. There's comfort in that. There's a lot of comfort in that. I love them. Well, thank you, Mary Ellen. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, all right, I have a question for you. Okay, I know, I know we're very different. Do you have you ever gone to like the I'm going to be alone forever? No? No, I mean I've thought about it like in this sense that I could, I could do it and I could be fine. But honestly, I think I've always gone to that place in a unhealthy way, like I'm find being alone. I can do this on my own. I don't need anybody. So I don't think that's unhealthy. I think, well, in my case it is, because then that's more like a coping mechanism versus starting to see like you know what, like I am going to want love, I am going to want this down the road, and I'm going to deserve this down the road, and I don't have to be alone, you know, So it's just kind of the opposite. I think they both can be unhealthy, you know what I mean. Interesting, I never thought of that because in my mind, I'm like, that's great, but like you well, I mean, of course, in my mind, I'm like, yeah, it's great to be rest of my life. But I think that's the unhealthy part of me. I think it serves me. It's a coping mechanism that serves me, serves me well, and then also does not serve me well. So it's interesting because, um, you know, I'll respond to some people on um, you know, on d MS or whatever. And when one girl was saying to me, she goes, um, she goes, my my ex, I just caught him cheating again. Um, you know, I just I left. But I just feel like I'm gonna be alone forever. And I'm like, I'm giving her advice that like you had have given me the last year. I was like, girlfriend, I was like, first of all, you're not going to be alone forever. Second of all, like be alone, yeah, you know what I mean, like find yourself and and you love yourself and and also um, I was like, would you rather have wanted to stay in that? You know it's like that, then then that's not a healthy life either, like just to be with someone like and that's what I realized, Like, oh my god, like I have wanted to stay just to be with something like, that's not a reason to stay with someone. I think your brain has always known that you've just had a hard time. So when you give advice, and I think you've probably missed. You've given several people advice that I'm like, I think you should take your own advice, you know what I mean. So it's like, you know it and you want that for other people, but I think sometimes you're not feeling deserving of it takes over. Yeah, but self like, but I think you're you're self loving. I think you're starting to really get it, and so it's even easier to give those people that advice. You're starting to actually believe what we've been telling you. Yeah, yeah, it's been yeah. But and and I'm but I I'm just so excited what Amy is going. Where're gonna bring on this podcast too? Along the way with us? Um? Well, that was fun. She was sweet. I love that she was just her energy. Yeah, she was great. She'd be a fun therapist. She would have some wine with her something U Alright, guys, see you next week.