We're not really addressing loan of this very well in our health systems until now. You know, clinical psychologists are not being trained around what noneliness is. We're just not being trained in this.

We're not really addressing loan of this very well in our health systems until now. You know, clinical psychologists are not being trained around what noneliness is. We're just not being trained in this.

Area, Doctor Michelle Limb, Welcome to the podcast.

Area, Doctor Michelle Limb, Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Paul.

Thanks for having me, Paul.

This is a long overdue topic. I think I've done a Wisdom Wednesday on it quite a while ago, just in terms of a little bit of the impact of loneliness and longevity, but it was very very brief, and I have been wanting to find somebody to do a deep dive on it because I think it's a massive problem and I think it's something that's getting bigger, and that's the topic of loneliness.

This is a long overdue topic. I think I've done a Wisdom Wednesday on it quite a while ago, just in terms of a little bit of the impact of loneliness and longevity, but it was very very brief, and I have been wanting to find somebody to do a deep dive on it because I think it's a massive problem and I think it's something that's getting bigger, and that's the topic of loneliness.

And I think you're very well qualified to talk about this.

And I think you're very well qualified to talk about this.

Given that number one year clinical psychologist you work at the University of Sydney, but you're also the CEO of Ending Loneliness Together. And are you still the director of the Social Health and Well Being Aboratory.

Given that number one year clinical psychologist you work at the University of Sydney, but you're also the CEO of Ending Loneliness Together. And are you still the director of the Social Health and Well Being Aboratory.

Yeah, a group at at the University of Sydney.

Yeah, a group at at the University of Sydney.

Yes, Yeah, cool, So tell us maybe let's start there about that Social health and well being love and you know why you decided to get involved in that as a clinical psychologist. What was it that you saw or attracted you into this space in the first place?

Yes, Yeah, cool, So tell us maybe let's start there about that Social health and well being love and you know why you decided to get involved in that as a clinical psychologist. What was it that you saw or attracted you into this space in the first place?

And then what do you guys do You're not social health and well being space, you know.

And then what do you guys do You're not social health and well being space, you know.

Paul, I think that's a good start, because I think, you know, like many people who start off a career in one area sometimes find themselves, you know, with a foot and another And this is basically what happened to me. I was a clinical psychologist probably now for good twenty years now, so it's kind of been some time and when I was training and also kind of the earliest of being a psychologist. What I've found what's happening on the ground as a kind of practitioner on the ground was that social care really was not prioritized. It's really almost seen as an afterthought. It's almost seen as, oh, we've kind of fixed all the physical and mental health stuff, right, let's discharge this person, and if that person's lucky, they might get connected into more social activities and groups if they're lucky, and sometimes if they're willing. So it's almost like an afterthought. And increasingly we're starting to realize in the scientific, you know, part of the field, that loneliness so the subjective feeling of the stress that comes up for you when you feel your relationships do not meet your current social needs. It's a very subjective feeling, so it's not something necessarily a clinician myself can detect unless I ask, So it's something that is very internal and often very silent. We really just in signs starting to realize it's not just being physically alone that's not helpful, because that in itself is huge grammifications for mortality and health, but also just feeling like you're alone, not just physically physically alone, that on top of that has huge ramifications. But really we're not really addressing loan oness very well in our health systems. And until now, you know, clinical psychologists are not being trained around what nonliness is, and not just clinical psychologists but generally or health practitioners. We're just not being trained in this area. And it's traditionally seen as a soft issue. It's traditionally seen as should be right. You know, we'll be fine, we get rid of this mental health issue, so we'll get rid of that, we fix those physical health issues, and then they'll not be lonely. But we're also realizing now that if we are. People are more connected. If they're feeling like they have that meaningful social connections, they're more likely to survive, They're less likely to have mobidity of other problems, They're more likely to recover quicker. So, you know, we just starting to challenge that thinking that social health is not important, that we can just suit better than rug and it will just be fine as soon as we kind of address those problems.

Paul, I think that's a good start, because I think, you know, like many people who start off a career in one area sometimes find themselves, you know, with a foot and another And this is basically what happened to me. I was a clinical psychologist probably now for good twenty years now, so it's kind of been some time and when I was training and also kind of the earliest of being a psychologist. What I've found what's happening on the ground as a kind of practitioner on the ground was that social care really was not prioritized. It's really almost seen as an afterthought. It's almost seen as, oh, we've kind of fixed all the physical and mental health stuff, right, let's discharge this person, and if that person's lucky, they might get connected into more social activities and groups if they're lucky, and sometimes if they're willing. So it's almost like an afterthought. And increasingly we're starting to realize in the scientific, you know, part of the field, that loneliness so the subjective feeling of the stress that comes up for you when you feel your relationships do not meet your current social needs. It's a very subjective feeling, so it's not something necessarily a clinician myself can detect unless I ask, So it's something that is very internal and often very silent. We really just in signs starting to realize it's not just being physically alone that's not helpful, because that in itself is huge grammifications for mortality and health, but also just feeling like you're alone, not just physically physically alone, that on top of that has huge ramifications. But really we're not really addressing loan oness very well in our health systems. And until now, you know, clinical psychologists are not being trained around what nonliness is, and not just clinical psychologists but generally or health practitioners. We're just not being trained in this area. And it's traditionally seen as a soft issue. It's traditionally seen as should be right. You know, we'll be fine, we get rid of this mental health issue, so we'll get rid of that, we fix those physical health issues, and then they'll not be lonely. But we're also realizing now that if we are. People are more connected. If they're feeling like they have that meaningful social connections, they're more likely to survive, They're less likely to have mobidity of other problems, They're more likely to recover quicker. So, you know, we just starting to challenge that thinking that social health is not important, that we can just suit better than rug and it will just be fine as soon as we kind of address those problems.

I think part of that is that we don't really have a health care system. We have a sick curse system. You know, you look at the spending on government spending on health, I think something like ninety eight and a half percent is on tertiary treatment, and we're.

I think part of that is that we don't really have a health care system. We have a sick curse system. You know, you look at the spending on government spending on health, I think something like ninety eight and a half percent is on tertiary treatment, and we're.

Not very proactive.

Not very proactive.

How much of it is because of that, and how much of it is that the whole social health has been under research, and then how much of it is the fact that loneliness is actually subjective and it's not really a condition so.

How much of it is because of that, and how much of it is that the whole social health has been under research, and then how much of it is the fact that loneliness is actually subjective and it's not really a condition so.

To space, Yes, yes, very good questions. I don't know if I know the answer to it. I think I will speak more broadly around that is that you're right. I think you know, loneliness has traditionally seen as that person's problem. It is your problem. You fix it. It's your responsibility. We're starting to realize now that first of all, while it's not a pathological problem, if we ignore it and we neglect it and we don't actually address it, it becomes bad for our health. It stops us from getting better. You know, That's where the problem is, because we ignore it and we sweep better on the rug and pretend it's not there. And in fact, last year when we did launch the Stay of the Nation Report, people who did say that they feel lonely, we're just too embarrass or ashamed to talk about it, and they actually actively conceal it. So like at least half of the people were saying it, they actually conceal it. They don't tell you, they actively try to hide it. And this is a problem because I think the word loneliness right now still has this very negative connotation.

To space, Yes, yes, very good questions. I don't know if I know the answer to it. I think I will speak more broadly around that is that you're right. I think you know, loneliness has traditionally seen as that person's problem. It is your problem. You fix it. It's your responsibility. We're starting to realize now that first of all, while it's not a pathological problem, if we ignore it and we neglect it and we don't actually address it, it becomes bad for our health. It stops us from getting better. You know, That's where the problem is, because we ignore it and we sweep better on the rug and pretend it's not there. And in fact, last year when we did launch the Stay of the Nation Report, people who did say that they feel lonely, we're just too embarrass or ashamed to talk about it, and they actually actively conceal it. So like at least half of the people were saying it, they actually conceal it. They don't tell you, they actively try to hide it. And this is a problem because I think the word loneliness right now still has this very negative connotation.

But what we.

But what we.

Really are trying to change is that we need to let people know it is just a very normal signal for you to kind of do something different about your connections that you're not really getting at the moment, the connections that you need that you really would like, and that it's not pathological. But when we ignore it, that becomes a problem, and so we really need to start that language around that.

Really are trying to change is that we need to let people know it is just a very normal signal for you to kind of do something different about your connections that you're not really getting at the moment, the connections that you need that you really would like, and that it's not pathological. But when we ignore it, that becomes a problem, and so we really need to start that language around that.

And do people in your experience, I don't know if you've asked them why they conceal it.

And do people in your experience, I don't know if you've asked them why they conceal it.

Is it because of sheer or stigma or.

Is it because of sheer or stigma or.

Yeah, absolutely, it's very much.

Yeah, absolutely, it's very much.

I mean.

I mean.

The study also looked at misconceptions about what loneliness is, and people were holding a lot of misconceptions around that, thinking that this is something that if they knew more people then they would just be less lonely. Perhaps even loneliness only affects all the people, that's it. You know, people who are lonely are not worthy of others, you know. So you're holding all these misconceptions that have been probably cemented over the years with social media, all kind of movies that kind of depict what loneliness is, and you're getting a lot of misconceptions of what it is, what it's not, and how do we actually talk about it and how do we deal with it. We now know this is not an issue that is soft. It's an issue that is now considered health problem and really the next global health priority beyond COVID and the World Health Organization just recently launched their commission as the kind of three year high level commission on this issue. You know, they're basically saying, we need to reposition this issue because it's not just social isolation that's bad. Loneliness and feeling like you don't have those meaningful connections is just as bad for you as as all the other things that we know are bad for you.

The study also looked at misconceptions about what loneliness is, and people were holding a lot of misconceptions around that, thinking that this is something that if they knew more people then they would just be less lonely. Perhaps even loneliness only affects all the people, that's it. You know, people who are lonely are not worthy of others, you know. So you're holding all these misconceptions that have been probably cemented over the years with social media, all kind of movies that kind of depict what loneliness is, and you're getting a lot of misconceptions of what it is, what it's not, and how do we actually talk about it and how do we deal with it. We now know this is not an issue that is soft. It's an issue that is now considered health problem and really the next global health priority beyond COVID and the World Health Organization just recently launched their commission as the kind of three year high level commission on this issue. You know, they're basically saying, we need to reposition this issue because it's not just social isolation that's bad. Loneliness and feeling like you don't have those meaningful connections is just as bad for you as as all the other things that we know are bad for you.

And so let's get into defining loneliness. Then.

And so let's get into defining loneliness. Then.

Is there an agreed upon scientific definition of loneliness there?

Is there an agreed upon scientific definition of loneliness there?

Yes, I would refer to the Global Initiative on Loanings Connection Definitions, which is really the working definition that we're using at the moment, and it is really around a subjective feeling of distress. But you desire particular relationships but you don't have them. Be it quality and sometimes with some groups around quantity, And I say quantity for some groups because young people, for example, desire more. They don't necessarily desire higher quality relationships at this stage, just still desiring more relationships and not really understanding that quality is probably easier to focus on instead of quantity. And social isolation is really around the frequency of contact that you have with people. You know, for example, we've met today and we're less.

Yes, I would refer to the Global Initiative on Loanings Connection Definitions, which is really the working definition that we're using at the moment, and it is really around a subjective feeling of distress. But you desire particular relationships but you don't have them. Be it quality and sometimes with some groups around quantity, And I say quantity for some groups because young people, for example, desire more. They don't necessarily desire higher quality relationships at this stage, just still desiring more relationships and not really understanding that quality is probably easier to focus on instead of quantity. And social isolation is really around the frequency of contact that you have with people. You know, for example, we've met today and we're less.

Socially isolated because we have met today and we have more social interactions because we're chatting, we're talking.

Socially isolated because we have met today and we have more social interactions because we're chatting, we're talking.

It's something around the number of roles that you might have in the community, whether you spoke to someone that day, the number of connections you have. We again, we do know that if you socially isolated, we traditionally already know that you're more likely to say, experience a range of different different kinds of health problems as well. And sometimes, you know, the word social connection is being kind of tossed around it, and what social connection is is really an umbrella term that talks about less loneliness and less social isolation. So it's basically covering both ends, the quantity and the quality aspects.

It's something around the number of roles that you might have in the community, whether you spoke to someone that day, the number of connections you have. We again, we do know that if you socially isolated, we traditionally already know that you're more likely to say, experience a range of different different kinds of health problems as well. And sometimes, you know, the word social connection is being kind of tossed around it, and what social connection is is really an umbrella term that talks about less loneliness and less social isolation. So it's basically covering both ends, the quantity and the quality aspects.

Okay, so that makes sense. Just a little detail into the young people feeling like they want to have more social connections and not necessarily about the quality.

Okay, so that makes sense. Just a little detail into the young people feeling like they want to have more social connections and not necessarily about the quality.

Yeah, has that changed over time.

Yeah, has that changed over time.

I'm just wondering whether the advent of social media and having lots and lots of friends has a kind of an impact on people thinking that they need to have more and more the young people.

I'm just wondering whether the advent of social media and having lots and lots of friends has a kind of an impact on people thinking that they need to have more and more the young people.

I think we need to do a lot of work here actually, poor you know, I think that I've run a lot of programs focusing on reducing loneliness in young people, and they will often come to me and it's where their headspace is. They are prioritizing more, they are not necessarily prioritizing high quality, and so I really have to get them to focus on You don't need to make a new friend, but I want you to focus on the quality of relationships that you already hold. And sometimes it's easier for young people, especially if they have kind of co occurring mental your health and they find it quite overwhelming to make a new friend. And that's fine. You know, this is about you know, changing stanges and the acquaintances and you know, getting to know an acquaintance and potentially changing them to a friend. We don't need best friends. We just need to have more meaningful conversations about more higher quality relationships. Sometimes it's about focusing on the current relationship, like a primary care giver kind of relationship, a grandparent, a sister, cousin. Focus on that, you know. I think people often kind of put a lot of expectations on themselves and to say, oh, I need to change everything. You don't need to change everything. You just need to focus on one thing. And one thing that you can do so you feel successful, you feel confident, and then we build you know, it's something that we make sure that you have those realistic expectations.

I think we need to do a lot of work here actually, poor you know, I think that I've run a lot of programs focusing on reducing loneliness in young people, and they will often come to me and it's where their headspace is. They are prioritizing more, they are not necessarily prioritizing high quality, and so I really have to get them to focus on You don't need to make a new friend, but I want you to focus on the quality of relationships that you already hold. And sometimes it's easier for young people, especially if they have kind of co occurring mental your health and they find it quite overwhelming to make a new friend. And that's fine. You know, this is about you know, changing stanges and the acquaintances and you know, getting to know an acquaintance and potentially changing them to a friend. We don't need best friends. We just need to have more meaningful conversations about more higher quality relationships. Sometimes it's about focusing on the current relationship, like a primary care giver kind of relationship, a grandparent, a sister, cousin. Focus on that, you know. I think people often kind of put a lot of expectations on themselves and to say, oh, I need to change everything. You don't need to change everything. You just need to focus on one thing. And one thing that you can do so you feel successful, you feel confident, and then we build you know, it's something that we make sure that you have those realistic expectations.

I was just going to say I would like to come back to that a little bit later on whenever we talk about the use of today and the role of social media in all of this. But I just wanted to talk about the incidence of loneliness, like how long have you been tracking it or other people been tracking it? So what do we know? What is the data telling us about change over time, either in Australia or globally, and then also about different age groups and the prevalence in different age groups. Take that in any order.

I was just going to say I would like to come back to that a little bit later on whenever we talk about the use of today and the role of social media in all of this. But I just wanted to talk about the incidence of loneliness, like how long have you been tracking it or other people been tracking it? So what do we know? What is the data telling us about change over time, either in Australia or globally, and then also about different age groups and the prevalence in different age groups. Take that in any order.

One of the issues that we have with loneliness is the measure measurement of loneliness has been very varied across the years. In fact, people do a really good job of measuring social isolation because, as I mentioned to you, something a bit more observable, you know, and loneliness is a little bit more difficult because you have to ask that person. And then with the stigma that comes along with that, people under report loneliness.

One of the issues that we have with loneliness is the measure measurement of loneliness has been very varied across the years. In fact, people do a really good job of measuring social isolation because, as I mentioned to you, something a bit more observable, you know, and loneliness is a little bit more difficult because you have to ask that person. And then with the stigma that comes along with that, people under report loneliness.

On top of.

On top of.

That and the varying data sets that I've kind of looked at over across the world, and the ones currently right now are saying they're fairly stable, that it's always been there. It's just probably we're talking a lot more about it right now. Oh yeah, there's more awareness that we should be talking about this because this is just as important social isolation. There might be emerging post COVID. I think there might be different data that might come up, But I'm not entirely sure about the stability of loneliness post COVID. I think it's it's a little difficult to say because we do have to track them over a long period of time.

That and the varying data sets that I've kind of looked at over across the world, and the ones currently right now are saying they're fairly stable, that it's always been there. It's just probably we're talking a lot more about it right now. Oh yeah, there's more awareness that we should be talking about this because this is just as important social isolation. There might be emerging post COVID. I think there might be different data that might come up, But I'm not entirely sure about the stability of loneliness post COVID. I think it's it's a little difficult to say because we do have to track them over a long period of time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, it's like when you're doing large Gill surveys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was going to say, it's like when you're doing large Gill surveys.

They're not done every month.

They're not done every month.

No, no, they're not, and we have.

No, no, they're not, and we have.

To weird until we get a big set of down.

To weird until we get a big set of down.

Yeah. And in fact, we still can't agree how loneliness is properly measured right now, because there are measures that relate to some people across the ages differently. I know, for example, when I was working with adolescents, you know, they didn't understand the word companionship when I asked them, do you do you feel like you like companionship and they say, I have no idea what that word is. So we're using a scale that's not really student to them. They're going to just under report loneliness. Same thing with you know, some of the scales that we're using, you know, the interpretation of someone who's older versus someone's younger might be completely different. So we really need a standardized consensus definition as well as measurement, and that's what the World Health Organization is trying to do, is to kind of get this Global Social Connection Index to make sure that we're measuring the same thing. This is all great as well, but you know, there's also some cultures that don't have the word loneliness in their vocabulary.

Yeah. And in fact, we still can't agree how loneliness is properly measured right now, because there are measures that relate to some people across the ages differently. I know, for example, when I was working with adolescents, you know, they didn't understand the word companionship when I asked them, do you do you feel like you like companionship and they say, I have no idea what that word is. So we're using a scale that's not really student to them. They're going to just under report loneliness. Same thing with you know, some of the scales that we're using, you know, the interpretation of someone who's older versus someone's younger might be completely different. So we really need a standardized consensus definition as well as measurement, and that's what the World Health Organization is trying to do, is to kind of get this Global Social Connection Index to make sure that we're measuring the same thing. This is all great as well, but you know, there's also some cultures that don't have the word loneliness in their vocabulary.

So you know, it's again it's one of those things that you know, it's important to measure, but there are cultures that were used to word solitude a proxy for loneliness.

So you know, it's again it's one of those things that you know, it's important to measure, but there are cultures that were used to word solitude a proxy for loneliness.

But you know that's not the same thing because that's very much more being physically alone. Yes, so yeah, there's a cross cultural element that we also have to consider. We're doing these sorts of big index and measurements.

But you know that's not the same thing because that's very much more being physically alone. Yes, so yeah, there's a cross cultural element that we also have to consider. We're doing these sorts of big index and measurements.

Yeah, and that just adds in a layer of complexity. I think it's it's it's kind of akin to measuring happiness, right, because there's lots of different definitions of happiness or whether you're talking about happiness, where you're talking about human flourishing, whether you're talking about subjective well being, and there's different skills for these sorts of things. You're right, it's hard to get real data on it. But I mean, and if we if we talk about happiness, I very recently did a podcast with doctor Tim Sharp from the Happiness Institute and we were talking exactly about this, and he was talking about, well, flourishing is a better definition.

Yeah, and that just adds in a layer of complexity. I think it's it's it's kind of akin to measuring happiness, right, because there's lots of different definitions of happiness or whether you're talking about happiness, where you're talking about human flourishing, whether you're talking about subjective well being, and there's different skills for these sorts of things. You're right, it's hard to get real data on it. But I mean, and if we if we talk about happiness, I very recently did a podcast with doctor Tim Sharp from the Happiness Institute and we were talking exactly about this, and he was talking about, well, flourishing is a better definition.

Than just happiness.

Than just happiness.

But looking into the flourishing research, there is a bucket load of stuff in there about social stuff about social connectedness, social integration, social growth. It's kind of well recognized that it has a big impact on overall human flourishing. But in terms of you look at those happiness are subjective well being inverted classic inverted U shape that we tend to see and that's where people tend to be happier in their late teens.

But looking into the flourishing research, there is a bucket load of stuff in there about social stuff about social connectedness, social integration, social growth. It's kind of well recognized that it has a big impact on overall human flourishing. But in terms of you look at those happiness are subjective well being inverted classic inverted U shape that we tend to see and that's where people tend to be happier in their late teens.

That's kind of the peak.

That's kind of the peak.

And then it drops off and there's a nid deer in the pin people's forties and then they pick up again afterwards. Do we see something similar in terms of loneliness or is it not that straightforward?

And then it drops off and there's a nid deer in the pin people's forties and then they pick up again afterwards. Do we see something similar in terms of loneliness or is it not that straightforward?

We see in some data sets a U curve distribution, so you have high loneliness at both ends of the age groups. So increasingly I'm seeing little bumps or blips in the middle ages as well, around the forty five to fifty four years, which I think is quite interesting. I don't really we don't really know the reason because you know, that age group is really under research and we don't really expect much happening in that age group, and we're seeing a bit of a blip, especially in Australia, the forty five to fifty four age group. So but it's well known across the world.

We see in some data sets a U curve distribution, so you have high loneliness at both ends of the age groups. So increasingly I'm seeing little bumps or blips in the middle ages as well, around the forty five to fifty four years, which I think is quite interesting. I don't really we don't really know the reason because you know, that age group is really under research and we don't really expect much happening in that age group, and we're seeing a bit of a blip, especially in Australia, the forty five to fifty four age group. So but it's well known across the world.

I'll tell you what what And then it was one perspective, big contribute to there will be kids and kids sport and every minute that you have.

I'll tell you what what And then it was one perspective, big contribute to there will be kids and kids sport and every minute that you have.

Spur is running around dropping off kids.

Spur is running around dropping off kids.

All you have no time social health, yeah, you.

All you have no time social health, yeah, you.

Have no time, no time for yourself. And then older parents, you know, we're we're kind of known because I'm in that age group. We're known as the Sandwich generation, you know, where you've got young kids in life are very busy, and then you've got older parents who are starting to be riddled with disease or dying, right, so you have kind of resource that has an impact.

Have no time, no time for yourself. And then older parents, you know, we're we're kind of known because I'm in that age group. We're known as the Sandwich generation, you know, where you've got young kids in life are very busy, and then you've got older parents who are starting to be riddled with disease or dying, right, so you have kind of resource that has an impact.

That's right.

That's right.

That is absolutely.

That is absolutely.

That's my hypothesized factors as well. And when I kind of look at those blits and it could be also a but it's a change in career. We don't know what's happening as well on top of that, but it is. It is having you know, teenagers potentially and having aging parents and having to juggle. It's a difficult time to you might have more resources, but you don't really in terms of time and other things that they're kind.

That's my hypothesized factors as well. And when I kind of look at those blits and it could be also a but it's a change in career. We don't know what's happening as well on top of that, but it is. It is having you know, teenagers potentially and having aging parents and having to juggle. It's a difficult time to you might have more resources, but you don't really in terms of time and other things that they're kind.

Of getting the way. But yeah, self.

Of getting the way. But yeah, self.

Cares at the ultimate low probably.

Cares at the ultimate low probably.

I remember reading something around loneliness that particularly in divorces, that we see much more loneliness in meals who have become divorced, yes, And the thinking around that was that a lot of the friendship groups of couples tend to be the wife's friends. And you know, that's a kind of a symptom from older times when the I would be working more and you know, the mom would have mother's group and all of that stuff, and then the school kids and stuff like that, and then when they're divorced, the wife ends up with more friends left than the male does, particularly if it's a nasty divorce.

I remember reading something around loneliness that particularly in divorces, that we see much more loneliness in meals who have become divorced, yes, And the thinking around that was that a lot of the friendship groups of couples tend to be the wife's friends. And you know, that's a kind of a symptom from older times when the I would be working more and you know, the mom would have mother's group and all of that stuff, and then the school kids and stuff like that, and then when they're divorced, the wife ends up with more friends left than the male does, particularly if it's a nasty divorce.

And have you seen that near research or is that just.

And have you seen that near research or is that just.

A blad We haven't specifically looked at divorced men, but what we do see is people who are single, divorced or widowed us significantly more lonely. And it also tells us where people place the importance on intimate loneliness and on intimate relationship, and if they don't have that intimate relationship, they're really very much at risks of loneliness and what you're saying, though, Paul, is very common for us to hear that men are really very much at risk and and also at risk of poor mental health when that happens, because it's a huge shock to the system. It's a huge upheaval of their life, and they really have to repair during that time, and sometimes it takes a long time to really get back on your feet either, especially if the children not living in them particularly, that's quite a difficult time for them as well. So it's really important for us to think about how we can better support men who are going through that transition. Because they're also at higher risk of suicide attempts and very significant depression.

A blad We haven't specifically looked at divorced men, but what we do see is people who are single, divorced or widowed us significantly more lonely. And it also tells us where people place the importance on intimate loneliness and on intimate relationship, and if they don't have that intimate relationship, they're really very much at risks of loneliness and what you're saying, though, Paul, is very common for us to hear that men are really very much at risk and and also at risk of poor mental health when that happens, because it's a huge shock to the system. It's a huge upheaval of their life, and they really have to repair during that time, and sometimes it takes a long time to really get back on your feet either, especially if the children not living in them particularly, that's quite a difficult time for them as well. So it's really important for us to think about how we can better support men who are going through that transition. Because they're also at higher risk of suicide attempts and very significant depression.

Absolutely, And so do we see if we dive into the data, do we see sex differences across the ages?

Absolutely, And so do we see if we dive into the data, do we see sex differences across the ages?

Well, because loneliness is also under reported, we don't know if men are under reporting loneliness, but what we see in big data sets when we do measure them in kind of big metal analysis, there is no difference in lone in men and women, but there might potentially be a difference I think in social isolation. In the Australian data sets that we're looking at, we do see that men are more socially isolated, and you know, social isolation could then lead to more loneliness down the track. So it's really important I think, just in terms of thinking about men being at risk of that more being by themselves and not reaching out again. You know, men could be more at recent that sense because they are they are after all, more socially isolated.

Well, because loneliness is also under reported, we don't know if men are under reporting loneliness, but what we see in big data sets when we do measure them in kind of big metal analysis, there is no difference in lone in men and women, but there might potentially be a difference I think in social isolation. In the Australian data sets that we're looking at, we do see that men are more socially isolated, and you know, social isolation could then lead to more loneliness down the track. So it's really important I think, just in terms of thinking about men being at risk of that more being by themselves and not reaching out again. You know, men could be more at recent that sense because they are they are after all, more socially isolated.

And is there any indicators about why that would be, not that men are more generally on the whole, Why we're more socially isolated than women? Is it environmental? Is it the fact that men are as good as making friends? Is it businesses for what is it.

And is there any indicators about why that would be, not that men are more generally on the whole, Why we're more socially isolated than women? Is it environmental? Is it the fact that men are as good as making friends? Is it businesses for what is it.

Yeah, and you might not find the same trends in other samples, just to flag as well. In this particular study, we did not follow up, but that was I think it's interesting that, you know, if they're not reporting more loneliness, are they under reporting loneliness because there's no difference when we look at loneliness, but we are more likely to hear that there's a difference in terms of the amount of social contact that they have with other people. Could be again a gender difference in the way we relate to people. We're not really sure. We haven't looked at whether that particular sample, for example, you know, are more likely to you know, be saying financial distress because we you know, that's also another element that kind of is very important and critical to understanding loneliness and social isolation.

Yeah, and you might not find the same trends in other samples, just to flag as well. In this particular study, we did not follow up, but that was I think it's interesting that, you know, if they're not reporting more loneliness, are they under reporting loneliness because there's no difference when we look at loneliness, but we are more likely to hear that there's a difference in terms of the amount of social contact that they have with other people. Could be again a gender difference in the way we relate to people. We're not really sure. We haven't looked at whether that particular sample, for example, you know, are more likely to you know, be saying financial distress because we you know, that's also another element that kind of is very important and critical to understanding loneliness and social isolation.

M yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. It's a it's a complex thing. And then let's talk about COVID. You've already said you haven't really seen anything because you haven't been studying anything long enough yet since COVID and being able to look at pre and post I'm just going to ask you to guess here.

M yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. It's a it's a complex thing. And then let's talk about COVID. You've already said you haven't really seen anything because you haven't been studying anything long enough yet since COVID and being able to look at pre and post I'm just going to ask you to guess here.

You know, you're you're pretty close to all of this. What's your gut feel.

You know, you're you're pretty close to all of this. What's your gut feel.

You're not putting your professional reputation on the line, it's just a gut feel, you know.

You're not putting your professional reputation on the line, it's just a gut feel, you know.

I'm not going to deny that. I think more people that report higher levels of loneliness during COVID, especially if you're in Melbourne, you really have the social distance in a very very rigid way, which is something that I try not to to think about. Has a bit of trauma, I think for everyone. And I think what we saw was blips of high levels of loneliness, but as things a kind of have eased back and kind of we've kind of gone back to kind of some level of normalcy. I think that people have this baseline that they just kind of reset and kind of go to where they were before. So it's almost like a slightly more you know, we see shots in these sorts of experiences when we have an external event and then we all kind of slightly do a reset. I think that's kind of we see similar trends in happiness. I think as well, you know that we kind of kind of go back to our baseline. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, And I do have to say though that you know, there are a lot of external factors. This is not always about the person's internal baseline, but there's a lot of external factors that can keep someone high in loneliness or feel persistently lonely. So once they become lonely, they stay lonely, and they are things that they often can't control. So in inside, the amount of resources they have, like financial resources are huge, is a huge factor. The way the amount of money they have to be able to interact with people or to form meaningful relationships. The less money you have, the more likely you are going to be lonely. In large data sets that we see across the world, things like your socioeconomic status, employment levels, all those kind of big macro factors. You know, if you have a chronic disease, you know you're more likely to also be lonely because you're probably spending a lot of time managing your disease. You don't have the luxury of you know, being able to.

I'm not going to deny that. I think more people that report higher levels of loneliness during COVID, especially if you're in Melbourne, you really have the social distance in a very very rigid way, which is something that I try not to to think about. Has a bit of trauma, I think for everyone. And I think what we saw was blips of high levels of loneliness, but as things a kind of have eased back and kind of we've kind of gone back to kind of some level of normalcy. I think that people have this baseline that they just kind of reset and kind of go to where they were before. So it's almost like a slightly more you know, we see shots in these sorts of experiences when we have an external event and then we all kind of slightly do a reset. I think that's kind of we see similar trends in happiness. I think as well, you know that we kind of kind of go back to our baseline. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, And I do have to say though that you know, there are a lot of external factors. This is not always about the person's internal baseline, but there's a lot of external factors that can keep someone high in loneliness or feel persistently lonely. So once they become lonely, they stay lonely, and they are things that they often can't control. So in inside, the amount of resources they have, like financial resources are huge, is a huge factor. The way the amount of money they have to be able to interact with people or to form meaningful relationships. The less money you have, the more likely you are going to be lonely. In large data sets that we see across the world, things like your socioeconomic status, employment levels, all those kind of big macro factors. You know, if you have a chronic disease, you know you're more likely to also be lonely because you're probably spending a lot of time managing your disease. You don't have the luxury of you know, being able to.

And it's yeah, and I think it's probably inhibiting your social activities, right, if you've got significant growing disease, can I can I can see how all of those things would play into it.

And it's yeah, and I think it's probably inhibiting your social activities, right, if you've got significant growing disease, can I can I can see how all of those things would play into it.

Yeah, and mental health of course as well.

Yeah, and mental health of course as well.

Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, and then it becomes it's kind of almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. I would imagine with mental health, whether it's social anxiety or depression, that then you know, I don't feel like actually going out and making friends, and that exacerbates the situation.

Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, and then it becomes it's kind of almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. I would imagine with mental health, whether it's social anxiety or depression, that then you know, I don't feel like actually going out and making friends, and that exacerbates the situation.

Yeah, and that is very common within with people with mental ill health. But what we call the cognition of loneliness even in people without mental ill health is people who lonely tend to, without realizing, unconsciously survey the environment in a much more threatening way. So I experienced my environment in a kind of more heightened state, you know, it's kind of much more hyper vigilant state. This is really based on a lot of social science and social imaging studies where they kind of scan their brains.

Yeah, and that is very common within with people with mental ill health. But what we call the cognition of loneliness even in people without mental ill health is people who lonely tend to, without realizing, unconsciously survey the environment in a much more threatening way. So I experienced my environment in a kind of more heightened state, you know, it's kind of much more hyper vigilant state. This is really based on a lot of social science and social imaging studies where they kind of scan their brains.

Are people alone, Michelle? Do they have in large to make the list?

Are people alone, Michelle? Do they have in large to make the list?

So I can't remember for the book from the back of mind with the studies that they're they're doing, but I think what they what they're really determining when they look at the imaging studies is that they're just much more hyper vigilance. So it's possibly that and when they're scanning what they're doing is they want. So they're saying I want to connect, So they're actually going unconsciously they're saying I want to but their brain is acting in a completely different way. And so what happens is that they actually do kind of much more avoided behaviors. So they're not looking at because you know it's threatening material not you don't want to face it. You're you're basically trying to avoid it. So you're not looking at people and interacting. You're less likely to say yes to things, You're less cooperative because you're really trying to protect yourself. You spend a lot of time unconsciously trying to protect yourself from being rejected basically, And of course you know if I if you and I have a conversation and you know I'm acting that way, you're thinking what's going on with Michelle? Like why she why she's so closed off? Oh maybe she just needs space. Maybe I would just want ask her to have a check. Then you know she's I'm going to be annoying her. And so when you do that, then it just reinforces everything again, it just reinforces all. You know, Paul doesn't have time for me. I'm no good He just you know, maybe I don't want to be a burdened him, so I wouldn't ask you. It just goes round and round and round, you know. And so a lot of the work as well as is that when your lonliness is triggered, how do we kind of get out of this vicious cycle.

So I can't remember for the book from the back of mind with the studies that they're they're doing, but I think what they what they're really determining when they look at the imaging studies is that they're just much more hyper vigilance. So it's possibly that and when they're scanning what they're doing is they want. So they're saying I want to connect, So they're actually going unconsciously they're saying I want to but their brain is acting in a completely different way. And so what happens is that they actually do kind of much more avoided behaviors. So they're not looking at because you know it's threatening material not you don't want to face it. You're you're basically trying to avoid it. So you're not looking at people and interacting. You're less likely to say yes to things, You're less cooperative because you're really trying to protect yourself. You spend a lot of time unconsciously trying to protect yourself from being rejected basically, And of course you know if I if you and I have a conversation and you know I'm acting that way, you're thinking what's going on with Michelle? Like why she why she's so closed off? Oh maybe she just needs space. Maybe I would just want ask her to have a check. Then you know she's I'm going to be annoying her. And so when you do that, then it just reinforces everything again, it just reinforces all. You know, Paul doesn't have time for me. I'm no good He just you know, maybe I don't want to be a burdened him, so I wouldn't ask you. It just goes round and round and round, you know. And so a lot of the work as well as is that when your lonliness is triggered, how do we kind of get out of this vicious cycle.

I think that that is a huge component to it. Having read a lot of the research on imaging studies of people who are chronically stressed, whether it's from workplace or other stressors, we do see an annoledge to migdalah.

I think that that is a huge component to it. Having read a lot of the research on imaging studies of people who are chronically stressed, whether it's from workplace or other stressors, we do see an annoledge to migdalah.

We see hyper vigilance to threat, right.

We see hyper vigilance to threat, right.

And that's exactly what you're describing, and a negativity bias. And I think this is really important for our listeners to understand, is that with that stress, whether that stress has been brought on by workplace stress or the stress of loneliness, that there does develop this hypervigilance that is a protective mechanism. It's an inbuilt protective mechanism to stress and threat that makes our brains become automatically more negative.

And that's exactly what you're describing, and a negativity bias. And I think this is really important for our listeners to understand, is that with that stress, whether that stress has been brought on by workplace stress or the stress of loneliness, that there does develop this hypervigilance that is a protective mechanism. It's an inbuilt protective mechanism to stress and threat that makes our brains become automatically more negative.

That's right.

That's right.

Whenever we're looking around it and as you say, wanting to then protect. And then I know from from looking at those studies that when somebody has a brain that has been chronically stressed, when they see fiaces, you know, the classic facial recognition, they see much more anger and much more saddness than people.

Whenever we're looking around it and as you say, wanting to then protect. And then I know from from looking at those studies that when somebody has a brain that has been chronically stressed, when they see fiaces, you know, the classic facial recognition, they see much more anger and much more saddness than people.

Even if it's neutral, even if it's a neutral.

Even if it's neutral, even if it's a neutral.

Face, even if it's neutral, right, they will.

Face, even if it's neutral, right, they will.

Perceive it as a negative face. So you're absolutely right. I think I think it's it's worthwhile noting this is not consciously done by the person who feels lonely. I think often they don't recognize you can't. You don't know your brain's going, you know, in the hypervision state. But we're doing this really in the effort to protect ourselves simply, you know, we're not really trying to make our own lives difficult, because nobody really wants to feel lonely. But we just get into this mode. And so how do we get out of this mode? How do we start increasing our awareness that this is what we're doing. And most of the treatments so far and the ones that have been evaluated, have always been kind of looking at kind of more cognitive behavior there being kind of mode, and the problem with those ones is that the is always putting it back on the person who's lonely. But I think that if we want the holistic solution, we really need to think of solutions across different things, not just the person who's who's lonely, but also the people who are trying to help our organizations in which we work, in our policies that affect where we live, work and play. Like, you know, the interventions and solutions are threaded across different kinds of platforms, not just the individual themselves.

Perceive it as a negative face. So you're absolutely right. I think I think it's it's worthwhile noting this is not consciously done by the person who feels lonely. I think often they don't recognize you can't. You don't know your brain's going, you know, in the hypervision state. But we're doing this really in the effort to protect ourselves simply, you know, we're not really trying to make our own lives difficult, because nobody really wants to feel lonely. But we just get into this mode. And so how do we get out of this mode? How do we start increasing our awareness that this is what we're doing. And most of the treatments so far and the ones that have been evaluated, have always been kind of looking at kind of more cognitive behavior there being kind of mode, and the problem with those ones is that the is always putting it back on the person who's lonely. But I think that if we want the holistic solution, we really need to think of solutions across different things, not just the person who's who's lonely, but also the people who are trying to help our organizations in which we work, in our policies that affect where we live, work and play. Like, you know, the interventions and solutions are threaded across different kinds of platforms, not just the individual themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, and but let's come back to that, to that, because I think it is worthwhile exploring a little bit more. But it's just it is a very non scientific term, right, But when when someone is to pressed or anxious or feeling lonely and they're in a social circumstance and that hypervigilance that you talked about in a negativity bias, they just give off a vibe that is not very welcoming. And I've had this conversation with my kids where they've talked about a certain individual just being rude, or we've thought that that certain friends of our kids are rude, and then we actually realize they're just shy, right, And now a lot of shyness is social anxiety, right, That whole thing that when you're shy or you have negative body langugeuage, people are less likely to go and interact with you, right, So it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas you look at someone who's happy and outgoing, I like to just talk about it, and it's not scientific, but it's their their energy and the vibe that they're giving off is much more attractive to others than somebody who's feeling lonely or depressed or sad that they're just not giving off the right vibes that are welcoming for other people.

Absolutely, and but let's come back to that, to that, because I think it is worthwhile exploring a little bit more. But it's just it is a very non scientific term, right, But when when someone is to pressed or anxious or feeling lonely and they're in a social circumstance and that hypervigilance that you talked about in a negativity bias, they just give off a vibe that is not very welcoming. And I've had this conversation with my kids where they've talked about a certain individual just being rude, or we've thought that that certain friends of our kids are rude, and then we actually realize they're just shy, right, And now a lot of shyness is social anxiety, right, That whole thing that when you're shy or you have negative body langugeuage, people are less likely to go and interact with you, right, So it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas you look at someone who's happy and outgoing, I like to just talk about it, and it's not scientific, but it's their their energy and the vibe that they're giving off is much more attractive to others than somebody who's feeling lonely or depressed or sad that they're just not giving off the right vibes that are welcoming for other people.

And Paul, you're even pointing out some micro things that they don't know they're doing. You know, I gaze is so important, but when you have social anxiety or when you are lonely, your I gaze is poorer, and so you're really sending signals to people you know, don't interact with me, because you know you're already in that protective mode. Yeah, and it's so minor, but it makes a difference because people really take your cues.

And Paul, you're even pointing out some micro things that they don't know they're doing. You know, I gaze is so important, but when you have social anxiety or when you are lonely, your I gaze is poorer, and so you're really sending signals to people you know, don't interact with me, because you know you're already in that protective mode. Yeah, and it's so minor, but it makes a difference because people really take your cues.

So absolutely, I think this is huge.

So absolutely, I think this is huge.

In fact, you just reminded me, Michelle, I was doing some work with a business recently. It's a very large business, and most of the people, just because of the nature of the work, tend to be introverts. And I was having a conversation with the director of one of those things, who's not an introvert at all, and they come from a completely different sphere of work, and they said to me, they said that when they joined, they noticed how many introverts there was. And somebody said to them, you know you're talking to an extrovert in this business if they look at your shoes when you're talking to them and not their shoes.

In fact, you just reminded me, Michelle, I was doing some work with a business recently. It's a very large business, and most of the people, just because of the nature of the work, tend to be introverts. And I was having a conversation with the director of one of those things, who's not an introvert at all, and they come from a completely different sphere of work, and they said to me, they said that when they joined, they noticed how many introverts there was. And somebody said to them, you know you're talking to an extrovert in this business if they look at your shoes when you're talking to them and not their shoes.

Wat.

Wat.

But it's that whole thing that when people are introverted slash shy slash the press slash, you know, that social isolation that much less. I gez and looking down. It's just sending out signals to the other person, whether right or wrong. But the signals incoming to the other person is don't interact with you.

But it's that whole thing that when people are introverted slash shy slash the press slash, you know, that social isolation that much less. I gez and looking down. It's just sending out signals to the other person, whether right or wrong. But the signals incoming to the other person is don't interact with you.

I'm not interested. I don't want to interact with you.

I'm not interested. I don't want to interact with you.

Yes. And on top of that, I think that often when the person who's lonely does want to reach out, the other person just doesn't know how to respond. They don't know how to make it safe, and sometimes they take it personally like what do you mean by your lonely we're friends, What does it say about our relationship? They take it personally. It's not about that. It's not about that, you know, and loneliness of social anxiety are what we call bad partners in crime. You know. We do know from large data sets is that if you're lonely, you're more likely to be socially anxious. But if you're socially anxious in the earlier time, you're more likely to be lonely six months down the line.

Yes. And on top of that, I think that often when the person who's lonely does want to reach out, the other person just doesn't know how to respond. They don't know how to make it safe, and sometimes they take it personally like what do you mean by your lonely we're friends, What does it say about our relationship? They take it personally. It's not about that. It's not about that, you know, and loneliness of social anxiety are what we call bad partners in crime. You know. We do know from large data sets is that if you're lonely, you're more likely to be socially anxious. But if you're socially anxious in the earlier time, you're more likely to be lonely six months down the line.

Yeah, and good luck getting out of loneliness if you have social life anxiety, right, unless you have really strong support groups around you, I would imagine, and you know.

Yeah, and good luck getting out of loneliness if you have social life anxiety, right, unless you have really strong support groups around you, I would imagine, and you know.

People don't realize this, but social anxiety is one of the earliest onsets of mental health difficulties that anybody would have, but the latest time to seek treatment so only on. So I'm talking about six seven years old, where kids start to go to primary school and they start having social anxiety. And what you will see I thinks at school school refusal, separation anxiety. You see displayed out that way because cognitively they haven't quite pieced that together. But there was average time to get treatment for social anxiety is when you are actually going to university.

People don't realize this, but social anxiety is one of the earliest onsets of mental health difficulties that anybody would have, but the latest time to seek treatment so only on. So I'm talking about six seven years old, where kids start to go to primary school and they start having social anxiety. And what you will see I thinks at school school refusal, separation anxiety. You see displayed out that way because cognitively they haven't quite pieced that together. But there was average time to get treatment for social anxiety is when you are actually going to university.

Oh wow, so they have they have up to a decade where they're having this condition that is not being managed dealt with help.

Oh wow, so they have they have up to a decade where they're having this condition that is not being managed dealt with help.

Well, you know, what they have done is many people social anxiety, which by the way, all of us have social anxieties. Just we're talking about the clinical levels of social anxiety. We know how to live our lives in a way that we avoid those socially anxious situations. And I've actually seen adults in my clinic who have avoided giving talks, avoided any sort of presentations, you know, to they they come and see me because they have to do a work presentation. They can't get out of it, you know. And some of these people have lived their lives in such a way that have avoided every possible social situation which puts them on the spotlight. They know how to do it. They got away of it, but at some point they just can't get away of it, and that's when they come to the clinics to see me. So it's just interesting to know that a lot of people were able to kind of navigate and build their lives in such a way that's safe for them for a very long time.

Well, you know, what they have done is many people social anxiety, which by the way, all of us have social anxieties. Just we're talking about the clinical levels of social anxiety. We know how to live our lives in a way that we avoid those socially anxious situations. And I've actually seen adults in my clinic who have avoided giving talks, avoided any sort of presentations, you know, to they they come and see me because they have to do a work presentation. They can't get out of it, you know. And some of these people have lived their lives in such a way that have avoided every possible social situation which puts them on the spotlight. They know how to do it. They got away of it, but at some point they just can't get away of it, and that's when they come to the clinics to see me. So it's just interesting to know that a lot of people were able to kind of navigate and build their lives in such a way that's safe for them for a very long time.

Yeah, very interesting.

Yeah, very interesting.

Let's talk about cognitive biases in psycho pathology, because you just mentioned some of the cognitive stuff and I know you have studied these cognitive biases. Talk about, first of all, what do you mean by cognitive biases in psycho pathology? That really drew my eye, and then we can dig into it a little bit.

Let's talk about cognitive biases in psycho pathology, because you just mentioned some of the cognitive stuff and I know you have studied these cognitive biases. Talk about, first of all, what do you mean by cognitive biases in psycho pathology? That really drew my eye, and then we can dig into it a little bit.

Yeah, and I put my clinical psychologists had on an traditional kind of cognitive being with therapy. What we're really saying is basically our adaptive cognitions of how we see ourselves, the.

Yeah, and I put my clinical psychologists had on an traditional kind of cognitive being with therapy. What we're really saying is basically our adaptive cognitions of how we see ourselves, the.

World, others.

World, others.

And it's really classified under about ten to twelve kind of different kind of thinking errors that we have, just to name a few, you know, black and white thinking. There's no gray at all. It's like it's either I'm a success or a failure. There's absolutely nothing in between, you know, all catastrophizing, you know, just because he said this about me, it must be really bad, you know, and so all filtered thinking. You know, there's one more, but filtered thinking is that we always see things only through the negative lens, and we're only picking up all the negative stuff. And the issues with cognitive biases or thinking errors as I like to call them, to kind of make it more colloquial, is that they really make us feel negative, and then we act in ways that respond to those. Basically, we're trying to find information to fit that thinking bias, and they stem from beliefs about ourselves or sometimes some people might call them schemers. You know that we need to hold truth. So, for example, if I have a belief system that I am a failure for whatever reason, I believe that I'm always going to be a failure. I'm going to fail at something, all my thinking errors are going to be very consistent with I am a failure, which is, oh, I did this right, but I don't know if I really did this right. Maybe it's a bit shit and someone's going to pick up that error, so that would be a thinking error.

And it's really classified under about ten to twelve kind of different kind of thinking errors that we have, just to name a few, you know, black and white thinking. There's no gray at all. It's like it's either I'm a success or a failure. There's absolutely nothing in between, you know, all catastrophizing, you know, just because he said this about me, it must be really bad, you know, and so all filtered thinking. You know, there's one more, but filtered thinking is that we always see things only through the negative lens, and we're only picking up all the negative stuff. And the issues with cognitive biases or thinking errors as I like to call them, to kind of make it more colloquial, is that they really make us feel negative, and then we act in ways that respond to those. Basically, we're trying to find information to fit that thinking bias, and they stem from beliefs about ourselves or sometimes some people might call them schemers. You know that we need to hold truth. So, for example, if I have a belief system that I am a failure for whatever reason, I believe that I'm always going to be a failure. I'm going to fail at something, all my thinking errors are going to be very consistent with I am a failure, which is, oh, I did this right, but I don't know if I really did this right. Maybe it's a bit shit and someone's going to pick up that error, so that would be a thinking error.

That's right.

That's right.

It's my belief that I am a failure, you know, so, and I feel bad, you know, and then I will always kind of unless I challenge myself, I will always just go round and around. And if I don't address that belief system, it's always just going to podcut its ugly head and say hey here I am so.

It's my belief that I am a failure, you know, so, and I feel bad, you know, and then I will always kind of unless I challenge myself, I will always just go round and around. And if I don't address that belief system, it's always just going to podcut its ugly head and say hey here I am so.

As psychologists, what we're really trying to do is to correct their belief systems because you know, again a blieve system or someone who's lonely might be I'm not worthy of friendships, you.

As psychologists, what we're really trying to do is to correct their belief systems because you know, again a blieve system or someone who's lonely might be I'm not worthy of friendships, you.

Know, and all their thinking errors are just similar to that.

Know, and all their thinking errors are just similar to that.

Yeah, And I think Daniel Goldman's work was this whole idea that self talk drives yourself image, which has your performance, which then affects yourself talk. So with with your example of that, and I often talk about this is that people thinking oh, I'm not good enough. That affects their performance and then sorry, that affects their self worth, right, and then that self worth affects their performance, and then their bringin goes say told you we're ship, and it becomes a self fulfilling Were always try.

Yeah, And I think Daniel Goldman's work was this whole idea that self talk drives yourself image, which has your performance, which then affects yourself talk. So with with your example of that, and I often talk about this is that people thinking oh, I'm not good enough. That affects their performance and then sorry, that affects their self worth, right, and then that self worth affects their performance, and then their bringin goes say told you we're ship, and it becomes a self fulfilling Were always try.

To find information to our belief We will always do that because if we if we find information that contradicts our beliefs, it feels uncomfortable, it's weird, It's like, oh, this doesn't fit right. And an example is if if I am a fani and someone praises me, I'll be like, what are you talking about? No, it did a look good job. No, it's horrible. What are you talking about? You know, you just straight away you push it.

To find information to our belief We will always do that because if we if we find information that contradicts our beliefs, it feels uncomfortable, it's weird, It's like, oh, this doesn't fit right. And an example is if if I am a fani and someone praises me, I'll be like, what are you talking about? No, it did a look good job. No, it's horrible. What are you talking about? You know, you just straight away you push it.

Yeah, that person's that just that person's just trying to be nice to me and they're you know, it's just it's just a fruit.

Yeah, that person's that just that person's just trying to be nice to me and they're you know, it's just it's just a fruit.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

You know, we get we get into the three pays as well here, don't we the permanence previous of? And what's the other one? Permanent's previous of? Anyway? What I think of the other one?

You know, we get we get into the three pays as well here, don't we the permanence previous of? And what's the other one? Permanent's previous of? Anyway? What I think of the other one?

Do you know what?

Do you know what?

As you were talking about those cognitive biases, it reminds me of a brilliant quote from Amate Gotswami, who is an astrophysicist and philosopher, and he said that we do not view reality directly.

As you were talking about those cognitive biases, it reminds me of a brilliant quote from Amate Gotswami, who is an astrophysicist and philosopher, and he said that we do not view reality directly.

We view reality through the mirror of memory.

We view reality through the mirror of memory.

And it's that mirror of memory and the memories that create these cognitive biases. And we're actually viewing reality through this filter that's largely influenced by our past and these belief systems.

And it's that mirror of memory and the memories that create these cognitive biases. And we're actually viewing reality through this filter that's largely influenced by our past and these belief systems.

Right, And I.

Right, And I.

Think you very eloquently put out how that can then just impact people and keep them trapped in certain situations.

Think you very eloquently put out how that can then just impact people and keep them trapped in certain situations.

And it's very similar to negative memories like trauma, you know, And sometimes we wonder, what if you're only just go and meet people and you'll be fine and trivialize it, but actually maybe someone's got trauma, you know, and the ben experience of people. We have bad memories of people that expectation, like negative expectations or what might happen. It's not that easy to go out and make a friend. It's you know, you're trivializing it for them because this person comes with layers or complexity that you probably don't know anything about. So I think it oftenks people who feel lonely when people say, oh, you're lonely, just do act. It's not that easy for that person just.

And it's very similar to negative memories like trauma, you know, And sometimes we wonder, what if you're only just go and meet people and you'll be fine and trivialize it, but actually maybe someone's got trauma, you know, and the ben experience of people. We have bad memories of people that expectation, like negative expectations or what might happen. It's not that easy to go out and make a friend. It's you know, you're trivializing it for them because this person comes with layers or complexity that you probably don't know anything about. So I think it oftenks people who feel lonely when people say, oh, you're lonely, just do act. It's not that easy for that person just.

To do that.

To do that.

Yeah, it's like when someone's deeply depressed, just just go.

Yeah, it's like when someone's deeply depressed, just just go.

And do this and get on with it. So no, I am Michell.

And do this and get on with it. So no, I am Michell.

Look, I'm loving this conversation, but I'm aware of the time constraints because you've got to be somewhere. So let's talk about the sort of stuff that we can do so in your coalition to end loneliness, which I highly recommend that people go and look up.

Look, I'm loving this conversation, but I'm aware of the time constraints because you've got to be somewhere. So let's talk about the sort of stuff that we can do so in your coalition to end loneliness, which I highly recommend that people go and look up.

We'll put all the links to at the end. But what are some of the.

We'll put all the links to at the end. But what are some of the.

Things that people can do to either survive loneliness, such a remedy loneliness? What are things that people can do themselves? And what about how can other people be a more aware of the cues and what can we do to help people who are struggling a little bit.

Things that people can do to either survive loneliness, such a remedy loneliness? What are things that people can do themselves? And what about how can other people be a more aware of the cues and what can we do to help people who are struggling a little bit.

So, starting from August fifth, what we will be releasing is really a variety of different videos around people talking about their experience. The reason why we're kind of really showcasing the live experience is because we want people to know that loneliness doesn't have a face, it doesn't look like any particular person. That we all should feel lonely at some point and we all manage it differently, and to be able to hear and understand and normalize the experience can sometimes be quite liberating for people who feel lonely. And also if you're not feeling lonely, it doesn't matter, because it's also about learning how you can help, but also understanding it. At some point, you will have to manage your own loneliness, you know, because that can have and do us at any given time. And I think it's important for us to educate ourselves first, because when we actually understand what it is and what it's not, we're more likely to take action and effective action. We're more likely to understand what works for us and what doesn't work for us. You know, to have those moments of trying to work out you know, what kind of resources you have, what are your preferences at the stage of your life? You know, what can you do? What do you do you not want to do? Kind of taking those steps and reflecting so that you can actually help yourself and manage it so that it doesn't become a problem. And we need to think about the people around us. You know, we don't We're not un social species as I call it. You know, we are social species that we will function with people around us and people we care about. There will be people that feel lonely, that the people that we care but will feel lonely at some point. How do we have those conversations that it is respectful, that is helpful to the person who needs the help helpful ye, because often people who want to help and very well intentioned might trivialize loneliness in a way that makes people retreat more, makes people feel more helpless. So we can start learning how to have that conversation, you know, just people listening to this podcast at the moment, how can we start having a healthier language around the connection. How do we encourage people to connect as opposed to withdraw because remember, we are really working against a system that's silent in our brains. This is not as easy as it sounds. So how do we make the environment safer for people to talk about their loneliness in a way that they don't feel judged or they don't feel like they're being demean or that they're they're less worthy of you.