Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky.

Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky.

Listener discretion is advised.

Listener discretion is advised.

Frequently I'm asked a very disturbing question. Do you believe the ghosts of children are demons in disguise?

Frequently I'm asked a very disturbing question. Do you believe the ghosts of children are demons in disguise?

No?

No?

Really?

Really?

People ask me this on the regular and my response is always the same. That's not the sort of thing I would be okay with myself being wrong on. So I guess I'm risking demonic possession every time I encounter the ghost of a child. Can you imagine the spirit of a lost child coming to investigators for help only to be treated as though they were an evil entity? Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance. The reality is, I think this idea was born from the fact that it's hard for us to imagine children ending up as spirits, somehow condemned to an eternity of wandering the earth. The universe couldn't possibly let that happen, right, So of course they must be demons. In all my years investigating, not once have I encountered a spirit of a child who I believed to be something evil or sinister in disguise. That being said, there is a location one I've had yet to visit, where time and time again it is stated there is something very ominous there, masquerading as the spirit of an adorable child named Sally. Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. Shall we join me as we head to Atchison, Kansas to visit the Sally House. I'm Amy Rooney, and welcome to Haunted Road. Atchison, Kansas is a small town with a population of just over ten thousand people, but what it lacks in numbers it makes up for with rich history. The first European settlers built a trading post there so they could buy and sell with the indigenous Kansa people from there, became a stop on a stagecoach line, then a railway station. It seemed to always be a temporary resting place for passers through, and it's the birthplace of one of history's most famous doomed travelers, Amelia Earhart. On the outskirts of Atchison, on an otherwise unremarkable residential street sits the Sally House. At first glance, it looks like any other white two story home. There are brick columns on either side of the porch with gray trim along the peaked roofs. You might never give it a second look if you didn't know about the Sally House's haunted history. It was built in the mid to late nineteenth century for Michael and Kate Finney and their three children, James, Agnes, and Charles. It's said that they were so eager to move into their new home that they lived there even before it was finished. They stayed in the basement while the upper floors were still being erected. Sadly, shortly after the house was completed, Michael passed away in eighteen seventy two. At some point in the nineteen hundreds, the Sally House became a rental. It changed ownership several times while a steady stream of temporary residence came and went. That includes Johanna Barnes and her five year old son Frank. Johanna suffered from mental health issues and attempted to kill herself and her son on the night of September twenty fourth, nineteen o six. They were in the house at the time. While Johanna survived, Frank did not. At some point after that, although it's unclear when, strange things began happening in the home, particularly for tenants children their toys would move around on their own, and unfortunately, even when these kids insisted that they hadn't left their rooms messy and with their things scattered around, they still sometimes got blamed for it. One girl in particular, made an imaginary friend while she lived in the house, a friend the structure would later be named after Sally. Her parents didn't think much of it at the time, but they noticed that when they moved out of the Sally House, their daughter abruptly stopped seeing and talking to this imaginary friend. Then, on December thirty first, nineteen ninety two, Tony and Deborah Pickman moved in as the newest renters. The two were expecting their first child, and they probably liked that the house had two bedrooms and a nursery. It was the perfect setup for a growing family. However, they noticed that the lights tended to dim, then minutes later bright and again. It only happened at night, but it was every night, and no matter how many repair people Tony and Deborah called in, nobody could find anything wrong with the lights. At one point, Tony joked that the only explanation was that the house was haunted, and from the moment those words came out of his mouth. The dimming never happened again. It was like whatever entity was behind the lighting changes didn't want to give.

People ask me this on the regular and my response is always the same. That's not the sort of thing I would be okay with myself being wrong on. So I guess I'm risking demonic possession every time I encounter the ghost of a child. Can you imagine the spirit of a lost child coming to investigators for help only to be treated as though they were an evil entity? Personally, I'm not willing to take that chance. The reality is, I think this idea was born from the fact that it's hard for us to imagine children ending up as spirits, somehow condemned to an eternity of wandering the earth. The universe couldn't possibly let that happen, right, So of course they must be demons. In all my years investigating, not once have I encountered a spirit of a child who I believed to be something evil or sinister in disguise. That being said, there is a location one I've had yet to visit, where time and time again it is stated there is something very ominous there, masquerading as the spirit of an adorable child named Sally. Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. Shall we join me as we head to Atchison, Kansas to visit the Sally House. I'm Amy Rooney, and welcome to Haunted Road. Atchison, Kansas is a small town with a population of just over ten thousand people, but what it lacks in numbers it makes up for with rich history. The first European settlers built a trading post there so they could buy and sell with the indigenous Kansa people from there, became a stop on a stagecoach line, then a railway station. It seemed to always be a temporary resting place for passers through, and it's the birthplace of one of history's most famous doomed travelers, Amelia Earhart. On the outskirts of Atchison, on an otherwise unremarkable residential street sits the Sally House. At first glance, it looks like any other white two story home. There are brick columns on either side of the porch with gray trim along the peaked roofs. You might never give it a second look if you didn't know about the Sally House's haunted history. It was built in the mid to late nineteenth century for Michael and Kate Finney and their three children, James, Agnes, and Charles. It's said that they were so eager to move into their new home that they lived there even before it was finished. They stayed in the basement while the upper floors were still being erected. Sadly, shortly after the house was completed, Michael passed away in eighteen seventy two. At some point in the nineteen hundreds, the Sally House became a rental. It changed ownership several times while a steady stream of temporary residence came and went. That includes Johanna Barnes and her five year old son Frank. Johanna suffered from mental health issues and attempted to kill herself and her son on the night of September twenty fourth, nineteen o six. They were in the house at the time. While Johanna survived, Frank did not. At some point after that, although it's unclear when, strange things began happening in the home, particularly for tenants children their toys would move around on their own, and unfortunately, even when these kids insisted that they hadn't left their rooms messy and with their things scattered around, they still sometimes got blamed for it. One girl in particular, made an imaginary friend while she lived in the house, a friend the structure would later be named after Sally. Her parents didn't think much of it at the time, but they noticed that when they moved out of the Sally House, their daughter abruptly stopped seeing and talking to this imaginary friend. Then, on December thirty first, nineteen ninety two, Tony and Deborah Pickman moved in as the newest renters. The two were expecting their first child, and they probably liked that the house had two bedrooms and a nursery. It was the perfect setup for a growing family. However, they noticed that the lights tended to dim, then minutes later bright and again. It only happened at night, but it was every night, and no matter how many repair people Tony and Deborah called in, nobody could find anything wrong with the lights. At one point, Tony joked that the only explanation was that the house was haunted, and from the moment those words came out of his mouth. The dimming never happened again. It was like whatever entity was behind the lighting changes didn't want to give.

Themselves away yet.

Themselves away yet.

Other technical problems included an oven timer that went off without being set and frequently displayed the wrong time. When Tony and Deborah were on the phone with friends. Sometimes the line would go dead for minutes at a time, only then to start working again. The couple also had pets, a Samoya dog and multiple cats. The dog often barked and snarled outside the empty nursery, while the cats frequently panicked out of nowhere, running around the house in a state of inexplicable terror. After Deborah gave birth to her son, Taylor in June of nineteen ninety three, these strange incidents only became more frequent. Multiple neighbors approached Tony and Deborah to tell them they'd seen the lights on in the nursery when the house was empty or in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep. Baby Taylor had a toy, Teddy Bear, that played music when they wound it up, but it frequently played on its own even when no one had touched it. Speaking of Teddy bears. Deborah collected them and had them all over the house. There was one particular bear that she kept sitting on a chair, but it tended to turn up on the floor, as though it had jumped down on its own. There was also a different bear that Tony often found facing the wall, even though he and Deborah both swore that they hadn't put it down that way. In a book Deborah later published called The Sally House Haunting, she described one especially unsettling incident. One night, the whole family went out to visit Tony's parents. Nobody was home, but when they got back, every single teddy bear in Taylor's nursery had been moved. Now they were sitting in a circle, their backs to one another. At first, Deborah and Tony figure there had to be a rational explanation for all of this. Maybe one of their neighbors had let themselves in through the unlocked front door to play a prank, But when they asked around, nobody owned.

Other technical problems included an oven timer that went off without being set and frequently displayed the wrong time. When Tony and Deborah were on the phone with friends. Sometimes the line would go dead for minutes at a time, only then to start working again. The couple also had pets, a Samoya dog and multiple cats. The dog often barked and snarled outside the empty nursery, while the cats frequently panicked out of nowhere, running around the house in a state of inexplicable terror. After Deborah gave birth to her son, Taylor in June of nineteen ninety three, these strange incidents only became more frequent. Multiple neighbors approached Tony and Deborah to tell them they'd seen the lights on in the nursery when the house was empty or in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep. Baby Taylor had a toy, Teddy Bear, that played music when they wound it up, but it frequently played on its own even when no one had touched it. Speaking of Teddy bears. Deborah collected them and had them all over the house. There was one particular bear that she kept sitting on a chair, but it tended to turn up on the floor, as though it had jumped down on its own. There was also a different bear that Tony often found facing the wall, even though he and Deborah both swore that they hadn't put it down that way. In a book Deborah later published called The Sally House Haunting, she described one especially unsettling incident. One night, the whole family went out to visit Tony's parents. Nobody was home, but when they got back, every single teddy bear in Taylor's nursery had been moved. Now they were sitting in a circle, their backs to one another. At first, Deborah and Tony figure there had to be a rational explanation for all of this. Maybe one of their neighbors had let themselves in through the unlocked front door to play a prank, But when they asked around, nobody owned.

Up to the practical joke.

Up to the practical joke.

However, after a lot of conversations with people on the block, Deborah and Tony did hear about those ghostly incidents the previous renters had experienced. That's also how Deborah learned the name of the little girl's imaginary friend, which may have been the name of the spirit that was apparently haunting her house, Sally. Now, I do want to be clear, there's no record that anyone named Sally ever died within the Sally House. There are also no former tenants with that name. If Sally truly is a ghost who was interacting with Deborah and Tony, it is unclear how she got there, but the couple was desperate for answers and contacted a psychic named Barbara after she heard Tony and Deborah's story. Barbara said the house was haunted by a spirit who was indeed named Sally, and she wanted to protect a baby. At another reading, Barbara added that Sally was seven years old and had died around the nineteen thirties or forties. Barbara insisted that Sally was harmless. All the scary things she'd done, like moving objects around and making the electronics malfunction, had been her attempts to keep a baby safe. She may have even felt protective over little Taylor, who was only about a month old at this point. At Barbara's recommendation. From that point on, Deborah tried to treat Sally's spirit the way she would any misbehaving seven year old. First, she explained that she appreciated that Sally was trying to help out with the baby, but her behavior wasn't in fact helpful. She needed Sally to act differently. Then, afterward, Deborah tried to keep the house safe and secure for the spirit. She read children's books to her, and when she went to bed, she told Sallie it was okay to come cuddle with her and Tony. She even brought a wrapped gift for the girl, a doll in a box with wrapping paper. Somehow, when the room was apparently empty, the doll inside the box got placed on the bed, although the packaging was never torn and the wrapping paper was still perfectly taped around the box. From the sound of it, all of these gestures helped Deborah get along with Sally quite well. But Tony was a lot more skeptical about Barbara's advice, and he didn't want anything to do with the storytelling, the nighttime cuddling, or the gift giving. Even after Sally materialized in front of him in the kitchen appearing as a very young girl. She looked closer to five than seven. He was more frightened than anything else. Unsurprisingly, this meant Sally also wasn't a big fan of Tony, and she occasionally lashed out violently. At least one time, she bit him so hard on the thigh it left a baseball sized bruise. Tony eventually theorized that whatever was dwelling in the house, it wasn't a ghost at all. He believed it was something demonic. He also thought an evil spirit was taking control of his body. On occasion, he said it drove him to to stab a stray cat to death after it wandered into the house one day, and it also left him often fighting the impulse to stab his wife Deborah as well. It's hard to say who was right about the spirit's true nature, but we do know that things only escalated from there. Candles often lit by themselves, which was obviously concerning since this was a major fire hazard. Deborah stuck with her usual method of trying to talk to Sally and explain that she shouldn't light things on fire. However, this didn't help. The candles kept igniting, as did teddy bears and an oil lamp on top of that, Tony and Deborah noticed something strange about the photos they took around the home. By this point, they'd both come to accept that there was something otherworldly dwelling with them, and they expected to see signs of Sally's presence on film. But by the end of nineteen ninety three or so, they began to notice a second entity in their pictures. The following February, Tony believed he saw this second figure manifest when a woman he didn't recognize walked down the hallway right in front of him. He also apparently interacted with her one day when the television remote went missing. After searching the house everywhere for it, Tony decided to take a nap on the couch. According to Deborah's book The Sally House Haunting, Tony woke again when a woman tapped him on the shoulder, set it down near him, and said, Tony, here's your remote. In his half awake state, Tony thought it was Deborah doing this, but later she insisted that she hadn't found the remote and definitely hadn't given it to him or woken him up. Since Barbara the psychic had been so helpful about identifying Sally's ghost. Tony and Deborah went to her again to ask about this other woman, but Barbara didn't have much information to offer. She thought the woman was trying to get Sally to go somewhere with her, and Sally didn't want to go. Her best guess was that the ghost may have been Sally's mother. Now, like Saally, this unidentified spirit seemed to have a very confrontational relationship with Tony. One night, he was in bed alone trying to sleep when he saw something solidify out of thin air right in front of him, first a torso with crossed arms, then a fully embodied woman. She had dark hair, a stern expression, and she was wearing a high collared black dress. Tony couldn't move out of a combination of terror and the fact that the woman was shaking his water bed erratically. He shouted at Deborah, calling for help, while drawers and the bedroom door opened and closed on their own. The woman reached for Tony's face and said, I'm gonna That's when he saw that she was wearing a black lace glove and there was a bird resting on one of her fingers. Finally, Tony got his wits about him enough to dive off the bed and sprint for the door. He was shouting for Deborah all the while, especially when he found the knob wasn't working, But when she stepped in, everything in the room looked normal. There was no sign that anything odd had happened. At this point, Tony and Deborah decided they needed professional help. They called in the crew from the ghost hunting show sightings multiple times. They also hired a medium to help the spirits move along. Interestingly, this medium said she didn't sense just two ghosts, Sally and her mother.

However, after a lot of conversations with people on the block, Deborah and Tony did hear about those ghostly incidents the previous renters had experienced. That's also how Deborah learned the name of the little girl's imaginary friend, which may have been the name of the spirit that was apparently haunting her house, Sally. Now, I do want to be clear, there's no record that anyone named Sally ever died within the Sally House. There are also no former tenants with that name. If Sally truly is a ghost who was interacting with Deborah and Tony, it is unclear how she got there, but the couple was desperate for answers and contacted a psychic named Barbara after she heard Tony and Deborah's story. Barbara said the house was haunted by a spirit who was indeed named Sally, and she wanted to protect a baby. At another reading, Barbara added that Sally was seven years old and had died around the nineteen thirties or forties. Barbara insisted that Sally was harmless. All the scary things she'd done, like moving objects around and making the electronics malfunction, had been her attempts to keep a baby safe. She may have even felt protective over little Taylor, who was only about a month old at this point. At Barbara's recommendation. From that point on, Deborah tried to treat Sally's spirit the way she would any misbehaving seven year old. First, she explained that she appreciated that Sally was trying to help out with the baby, but her behavior wasn't in fact helpful. She needed Sally to act differently. Then, afterward, Deborah tried to keep the house safe and secure for the spirit. She read children's books to her, and when she went to bed, she told Sallie it was okay to come cuddle with her and Tony. She even brought a wrapped gift for the girl, a doll in a box with wrapping paper. Somehow, when the room was apparently empty, the doll inside the box got placed on the bed, although the packaging was never torn and the wrapping paper was still perfectly taped around the box. From the sound of it, all of these gestures helped Deborah get along with Sally quite well. But Tony was a lot more skeptical about Barbara's advice, and he didn't want anything to do with the storytelling, the nighttime cuddling, or the gift giving. Even after Sally materialized in front of him in the kitchen appearing as a very young girl. She looked closer to five than seven. He was more frightened than anything else. Unsurprisingly, this meant Sally also wasn't a big fan of Tony, and she occasionally lashed out violently. At least one time, she bit him so hard on the thigh it left a baseball sized bruise. Tony eventually theorized that whatever was dwelling in the house, it wasn't a ghost at all. He believed it was something demonic. He also thought an evil spirit was taking control of his body. On occasion, he said it drove him to to stab a stray cat to death after it wandered into the house one day, and it also left him often fighting the impulse to stab his wife Deborah as well. It's hard to say who was right about the spirit's true nature, but we do know that things only escalated from there. Candles often lit by themselves, which was obviously concerning since this was a major fire hazard. Deborah stuck with her usual method of trying to talk to Sally and explain that she shouldn't light things on fire. However, this didn't help. The candles kept igniting, as did teddy bears and an oil lamp on top of that, Tony and Deborah noticed something strange about the photos they took around the home. By this point, they'd both come to accept that there was something otherworldly dwelling with them, and they expected to see signs of Sally's presence on film. But by the end of nineteen ninety three or so, they began to notice a second entity in their pictures. The following February, Tony believed he saw this second figure manifest when a woman he didn't recognize walked down the hallway right in front of him. He also apparently interacted with her one day when the television remote went missing. After searching the house everywhere for it, Tony decided to take a nap on the couch. According to Deborah's book The Sally House Haunting, Tony woke again when a woman tapped him on the shoulder, set it down near him, and said, Tony, here's your remote. In his half awake state, Tony thought it was Deborah doing this, but later she insisted that she hadn't found the remote and definitely hadn't given it to him or woken him up. Since Barbara the psychic had been so helpful about identifying Sally's ghost. Tony and Deborah went to her again to ask about this other woman, but Barbara didn't have much information to offer. She thought the woman was trying to get Sally to go somewhere with her, and Sally didn't want to go. Her best guess was that the ghost may have been Sally's mother. Now, like Saally, this unidentified spirit seemed to have a very confrontational relationship with Tony. One night, he was in bed alone trying to sleep when he saw something solidify out of thin air right in front of him, first a torso with crossed arms, then a fully embodied woman. She had dark hair, a stern expression, and she was wearing a high collared black dress. Tony couldn't move out of a combination of terror and the fact that the woman was shaking his water bed erratically. He shouted at Deborah, calling for help, while drawers and the bedroom door opened and closed on their own. The woman reached for Tony's face and said, I'm gonna That's when he saw that she was wearing a black lace glove and there was a bird resting on one of her fingers. Finally, Tony got his wits about him enough to dive off the bed and sprint for the door. He was shouting for Deborah all the while, especially when he found the knob wasn't working, But when she stepped in, everything in the room looked normal. There was no sign that anything odd had happened. At this point, Tony and Deborah decided they needed professional help. They called in the crew from the ghost hunting show sightings multiple times. They also hired a medium to help the spirits move along. Interestingly, this medium said she didn't sense just two ghosts, Sally and her mother.

She thought there were three.

She thought there were three.

This medium apparently encouraged the mother and this third spirit, described as a perfect gentleman, to leave the house. The little girl Sally stayed in spite of everything that had happened with Tony. Deborah still believed she was a defenseless young child who needed to be taken care of, and Deborah wanted her to remain in the house. As it turned out, either Sally was more dangerous than she initially appeared, or there was something malicious besides her still lurking in the home. Some un unseen entity tried to push Tony down the stairs shortly before Halloween in nineteen ninety four, It was the last straw, and Tony and Deborah moved out in the end of October. Afterward, new tenants moved into the Sally House and the hauntings continued up until today. When visitors drop by virghost tours, they often experience all the same things that left Tony and Deborah so unsettled. Objects that move on their own, footsteps and noises with no clear source, and electronic disturbances. Many guests get scratches and bruises while walking through the home. They sometimes feel as though someone invisible is touching them. You'll remember that the Pickman's dog seemed bothered by the nursery. To this day, guide dogs also tend to refuse to set foot in it. While many visitors believe they've seen or interacted with Sally, there are reports of another spirit as well, an adult woman. It's believed this is not in fact the woman Deborah and Tony had exercised from the home, but some other spirit who came to the house at some later point and decided to stay.

This medium apparently encouraged the mother and this third spirit, described as a perfect gentleman, to leave the house. The little girl Sally stayed in spite of everything that had happened with Tony. Deborah still believed she was a defenseless young child who needed to be taken care of, and Deborah wanted her to remain in the house. As it turned out, either Sally was more dangerous than she initially appeared, or there was something malicious besides her still lurking in the home. Some un unseen entity tried to push Tony down the stairs shortly before Halloween in nineteen ninety four, It was the last straw, and Tony and Deborah moved out in the end of October. Afterward, new tenants moved into the Sally House and the hauntings continued up until today. When visitors drop by virghost tours, they often experience all the same things that left Tony and Deborah so unsettled. Objects that move on their own, footsteps and noises with no clear source, and electronic disturbances. Many guests get scratches and bruises while walking through the home. They sometimes feel as though someone invisible is touching them. You'll remember that the Pickman's dog seemed bothered by the nursery. To this day, guide dogs also tend to refuse to set foot in it. While many visitors believe they've seen or interacted with Sally, there are reports of another spirit as well, an adult woman. It's believed this is not in fact the woman Deborah and Tony had exercised from the home, but some other spirit who came to the house at some later point and decided to stay.

There are also reports.

There are also reports.

Of some kind of very old, malevolent being in the basement, which may have been there for decades. There is a raging debate about what these entities truly are. Some agree with Deborah that these are spirits of the dead. As I said before, there's no record of any young girl named Sally ever living or dying in the Sally House, but there are rumors connecting her to one of the first residents who lived there, Charles Finney. Charles was the son of Michael and Kate Finny, who first had the house built, and he grew up to be a doctor. According to some rumors and speculation, a local mother rushed her dangerously ill daughter, Sally, to Charles's house late at night for emergency treatment. It said she brought the girl to Charles either because of his reputation or because he was secretly Sally's illegitimate father, whatever the nature of their relationship. Charles supposedly rushed Sally into surgery without giving her anesthesia, as they didn't have the time to waste waiting for it to kick in. Sadly, even his great skill couldn't save her life, and Sally died in horrible pain, too young to understand that the man who was hurting her only did so because he was trying to help. Perhaps that's why she seems to lash out against men so much more often than women, because she associates them with the doctor who painfully performed surgery on her during her final night. Another theory about these specters is that they are demons who never were human at all. Even the spirit known as Sally may only be pretending to be an innocent young girl. If we don't know what these spirits are, we can't help them find peace. Frankly, we can't even know if peace is something that they are seeking. So to help me cut through the nod of rumor and conjecture and try to learn the truth about the Sally House, I'm talking to someone very special. We are bringing back mister Johnny Hauser to the show, and he's gonna tell us why he vowed to never return to the Sally House. That's coming up after the break. All right, So we are joined by one of my favorite people and was the very first guest ever on Haunted Road, mister Johnny Howser.

Of some kind of very old, malevolent being in the basement, which may have been there for decades. There is a raging debate about what these entities truly are. Some agree with Deborah that these are spirits of the dead. As I said before, there's no record of any young girl named Sally ever living or dying in the Sally House, but there are rumors connecting her to one of the first residents who lived there, Charles Finney. Charles was the son of Michael and Kate Finny, who first had the house built, and he grew up to be a doctor. According to some rumors and speculation, a local mother rushed her dangerously ill daughter, Sally, to Charles's house late at night for emergency treatment. It said she brought the girl to Charles either because of his reputation or because he was secretly Sally's illegitimate father, whatever the nature of their relationship. Charles supposedly rushed Sally into surgery without giving her anesthesia, as they didn't have the time to waste waiting for it to kick in. Sadly, even his great skill couldn't save her life, and Sally died in horrible pain, too young to understand that the man who was hurting her only did so because he was trying to help. Perhaps that's why she seems to lash out against men so much more often than women, because she associates them with the doctor who painfully performed surgery on her during her final night. Another theory about these specters is that they are demons who never were human at all. Even the spirit known as Sally may only be pretending to be an innocent young girl. If we don't know what these spirits are, we can't help them find peace. Frankly, we can't even know if peace is something that they are seeking. So to help me cut through the nod of rumor and conjecture and try to learn the truth about the Sally House, I'm talking to someone very special. We are bringing back mister Johnny Hauser to the show, and he's gonna tell us why he vowed to never return to the Sally House. That's coming up after the break. All right, So we are joined by one of my favorite people and was the very first guest ever on Haunted Road, mister Johnny Howser.

Welcome back to the show.

Welcome back to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me. There was a lot of fun the first episode. That's amazing.

Hey, thanks for having me. There was a lot of fun the first episode. That's amazing.

Yeah, you were my you know.

Yeah, you were my you know.

I was like I remember thinking back then, like okay, who can I completely screw up with and they won't judge me.

I was like I remember thinking back then, like okay, who can I completely screw up with and they won't judge me.

I was like Johnny, and it was.

I was like Johnny, and it was.

Lockdown, wasn't it.

Lockdown, wasn't it.

I feel like it was very close to it because I know the pod came in twenty twenty one, so.

I feel like it was very close to it because I know the pod came in twenty twenty one, so.

It was way back when, and uh it was.

It was way back when, and uh it was.

You know.

You know.

It's funny because you know, my good friend Aaron Minky, who's executive producer of this show, he went back and he re recorded a bunch of his old Lore episodes and I didn't understand that, and now I do because I go back and I listened to my first few episodes, like first one or two seasons, and I'm like.

It's funny because you know, my good friend Aaron Minky, who's executive producer of this show, he went back and he re recorded a bunch of his old Lore episodes and I didn't understand that, and now I do because I go back and I listened to my first few episodes, like first one or two seasons, and I'm like.

Oh wow, I got a lot better since then.

Oh wow, I got a lot better since then.

And so, you know, but it's always been a ton of fun. So but thank you so much for coming back. All Right, So today we're going to talk about the Sally House.

And so, you know, but it's always been a ton of fun. So but thank you so much for coming back. All Right, So today we're going to talk about the Sally House.

And what's interesting.

And what's interesting.

About this house to me is that I've never been there, and so, you know, there's not a ton of places that we cover on the podcast where I haven't been. But it's also one of those places that people repeatedly ask me to go to, and I hope to get there eventually. I do think it's interesting that it's run by the town basically as opposed to like a private owner. But that being said, I was trying to find someone to talk to about it, and I reached out to Richard step of usual friend of ours, and because I knew he wrote a book on it, and I was like, Richard, you've been on the podcast too many times, so I need someone else. And he pointed me to you, and he specifically said you have to talk to Johnny.

About this house to me is that I've never been there, and so, you know, there's not a ton of places that we cover on the podcast where I haven't been. But it's also one of those places that people repeatedly ask me to go to, and I hope to get there eventually. I do think it's interesting that it's run by the town basically as opposed to like a private owner. But that being said, I was trying to find someone to talk to about it, and I reached out to Richard step of usual friend of ours, and because I knew he wrote a book on it, and I was like, Richard, you've been on the podcast too many times, so I need someone else. And he pointed me to you, and he specifically said you have to talk to Johnny.

Because he swore he would never go back there.

Because he swore he would never go back there.

And I thought that's perfect, So can you just tell me, like, how did you find yourself at the Sally House?

And I thought that's perfect, So can you just tell me, like, how did you find yourself at the Sally House?

Uh? That's such a you know in the paranormal game, you look back and everything's like puzzle pieces, almost like it just all falls into place without you even knowing. For me, it started at the blisk Ax Murder House like eighteen years ago, and I have overnights come and I check them in and I go to give him the speel inside the house and the guy goes, whatever's in here was at my house and I'm just like, oh, yeah, like what are you talking about? He goes, My name's Tony and I was on the show's sightings what they call the Sally House. So I'm like, oh, I remember watching that when I was young. You know, you're the guy getting the scratches live on camera, and so we got to talking. The houses are the exact same street address, the fiveh eight second Street. The artist rendition, he drew a Sally. The Sally ghost that presumably died from the appendix operation is a spitting image of Catherine Moore, who is one of the little girls at the Axe Murder House. So he walks into the downstairs bedroom where Aina and Lina Stellinger were found, and he starts choking and coughing, and he's coughing and coughing. I'm like, dude, you all right, Like you need to drink a water or something. He throws up a chunk of bacon where the bacon was found in nineteen twelve on the floor at the Axe Murder House.

Uh? That's such a you know in the paranormal game, you look back and everything's like puzzle pieces, almost like it just all falls into place without you even knowing. For me, it started at the blisk Ax Murder House like eighteen years ago, and I have overnights come and I check them in and I go to give him the speel inside the house and the guy goes, whatever's in here was at my house and I'm just like, oh, yeah, like what are you talking about? He goes, My name's Tony and I was on the show's sightings what they call the Sally House. So I'm like, oh, I remember watching that when I was young. You know, you're the guy getting the scratches live on camera, and so we got to talking. The houses are the exact same street address, the fiveh eight second Street. The artist rendition, he drew a Sally. The Sally ghost that presumably died from the appendix operation is a spitting image of Catherine Moore, who is one of the little girls at the Axe Murder House. So he walks into the downstairs bedroom where Aina and Lina Stellinger were found, and he starts choking and coughing, and he's coughing and coughing. I'm like, dude, you all right, Like you need to drink a water or something. He throws up a chunk of bacon where the bacon was found in nineteen twelve on the floor at the Axe Murder House.

This happened in front of you, right.

This happened in front of you, right.

In front of me, and like guys being guys, when something gross happens, we do we go look, you know, it's like and it was a chunk of raw, fatty bacon. And I left there. It's like, I'm out. I don't know what's happening here, but I got to go, you know, and I thought about that forever. It's like, why would this dude swallow a huge chunk of fatty raw bacon make himself throw it up to impress me a tour guide at the X House for two years at that point, you know, like the X House wasn't even nothing back then. And that started my obsession with the Sally House. And then I had the opportunity to spend like three days there and I had to jump on it because that sightings episode was one that stuck with me before I was even really in a paranormal game. And since then I've known. I've met people in the field in production companies that worked on that episode, and they said the producer that quit out of Hollywood quit his job, become a born again Christian all because of what he witnessed there with the scratchings and stuff.

In front of me, and like guys being guys, when something gross happens, we do we go look, you know, it's like and it was a chunk of raw, fatty bacon. And I left there. It's like, I'm out. I don't know what's happening here, but I got to go, you know, and I thought about that forever. It's like, why would this dude swallow a huge chunk of fatty raw bacon make himself throw it up to impress me a tour guide at the X House for two years at that point, you know, like the X House wasn't even nothing back then. And that started my obsession with the Sally House. And then I had the opportunity to spend like three days there and I had to jump on it because that sightings episode was one that stuck with me before I was even really in a paranormal game. And since then I've known. I've met people in the field in production companies that worked on that episode, and they said the producer that quit out of Hollywood quit his job, become a born again Christian all because of what he witnessed there with the scratchings and stuff.

So, to be clear, the bacon, the bacon incident, this happened in the Veliska House.

So, to be clear, the bacon, the bacon incident, this happened in the Veliska House.

Yes, So when they found the bodies at next morning, there was a chunk of raw acon laying on the floor in that bedroom, the Downs room. And so when deb and Tony came to stay the night, when he walked into that room, he threw up raw bacon in the exact spot that the bacon was found.

Yes, So when they found the bodies at next morning, there was a chunk of raw acon laying on the floor in that bedroom, the Downs room. And so when deb and Tony came to stay the night, when he walked into that room, he threw up raw bacon in the exact spot that the bacon was found.

So that's wild.

So that's wild.

That's the room that's downstairs, correct, So that's the same room where that invested Robert Larson.

That's the room that's downstairs, correct, So that's the same room where that invested Robert Larson.

I believe that's where he stabbed himself and everything.

I believe that's where he stabbed himself and everything.

Yep, exactly.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah, that's a bizarre space. So that's that's really interesting. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, is it seemed like there's this kind of connection between the two houses. And just going back to that Sightings episode, so I used to watch that show too. I think a lot of us are age watch that show, and I don't remember that episode specifically, so I'm going to have to go back and check it out when this happened, and I want to talk more about the Sally House itself, but I just this bacon moment has me pretty speechless. But when this happened, Like, what were you thinking? Like what was going through your head as you see this go on?

Yeah, that's a bizarre space. So that's that's really interesting. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, is it seemed like there's this kind of connection between the two houses. And just going back to that Sightings episode, so I used to watch that show too. I think a lot of us are age watch that show, and I don't remember that episode specifically, so I'm going to have to go back and check it out when this happened, and I want to talk more about the Sally House itself, but I just this bacon moment has me pretty speechless. But when this happened, Like, what were you thinking? Like what was going through your head as you see this go on?

Specifically back then, you know, I always would play Wugi board by myself, Bloody Mary by myself. I was just a weird kid growing up, and I had no idea that there were teams that did this with matching T shirts. You know, it's like there are people that do this besides me. It's so new and so magical and so bizarre and so weird and fantastic that I'm like, oh my gosh, I just witnessed this guy do that. And then I mean you automatically try and rationalize, like, okay, did that really happen? But it's like, why, of course it really happened. Why would he think that to impress some duty doesn't even know that's nobody, you know, like, yeah, that's wild, Yeah it was. And I mean I took out my little Motorola flip phone at the time and took a picture of it because I just wanted to document everything I seen, and of course it's like two megapixel. You can't even make nothing out at this point.

Specifically back then, you know, I always would play Wugi board by myself, Bloody Mary by myself. I was just a weird kid growing up, and I had no idea that there were teams that did this with matching T shirts. You know, it's like there are people that do this besides me. It's so new and so magical and so bizarre and so weird and fantastic that I'm like, oh my gosh, I just witnessed this guy do that. And then I mean you automatically try and rationalize, like, okay, did that really happen? But it's like, why, of course it really happened. Why would he think that to impress some duty doesn't even know that's nobody, you know, like, yeah, that's wild, Yeah it was. And I mean I took out my little Motorola flip phone at the time and took a picture of it because I just wanted to document everything I seen, and of course it's like two megapixel. You can't even make nothing out at this point.

But it's okay, you have the you have the bacon bar forever in your brain. I'm sure, so great, But okay, So moving ahead to Sally House, you have the opportunity to spend three days there.

But it's okay, you have the you have the bacon bar forever in your brain. I'm sure, so great, But okay, So moving ahead to Sally House, you have the opportunity to spend three days there.

Now what happens?

Now what happens?

You know, you can kind of go through it step by step, but like, how long ago was this and you know, what was it like when you first like set foot in that house.

You know, you can kind of go through it step by step, but like, how long ago was this and you know, what was it like when you first like set foot in that house.

This would probably be about twelve to fifteen years ago. As soon as we got there, as soon as and I won't say as soon as I walked on the property, like when I opened the door and I seen the staircase going upstairs, I just got the I was feeling a file filth gross like blah. I mean, I can't even really describe it, just not good. We were unpacking, getting ready to, you know, just put our equipment and get it all charged up. My buddy's cell phone flew off the table into the living room and it's like, oh, okay, that's what this is going to be tonight. First thing, right off the bat, I decide I want to be I want to go down in the basement. And by this guy, i'd heard that there was no Sally ghost. There's no Sally girl that died from a procedure in there, there's no records of it. The story I heard was a lady that lived there back in the day, was dabbling in the occult and black magic in the basement, and supposedly there's a pentagram on the floor. You go down there, there's a big black spot on the floor. Who knows what it is or what it was. But it's about six o'clock. I mean, it's still daylight. And I try some you know, is anyone here can give me a sign, you know, the normal ghost hunting techniques. Fifteen years ago. Nothing's happening. So I decide, well, if this is a cult, I'll try religious provocation. It just makes sense to me, you know. So I go, in the name of Jesus Christ do something and I feel like a bug bite burn on the back of my leg, and I'm like, oh, I just got scratched. This is awesome. So I run upstairs and roll up my pant leg. On the back of my calf. There's a big patch of bald like the hair is burned off my leg and you can smell the burnt hair. You can see singed hair like something burned hair off my leg. And I'm like, uh, that's nuts. This is something way different. So I go up. There's a Catholic college in town. I go up to the gift shop, spend like one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty dollars on crucifixes, holy water, you name it, protection, this and that. I get back down there the holy water bottles are empty. They're just decorative bottles. So I go back up there again. Everything's closed and it's like that scene in The Lost Boys where they're filling up their squirt guns with holy water. Like I walk in a building, I'm like, this is a church. I see water. It's like that's got to be holy water. What else would it be. So I'm like filling up the bottles, looking around, like am I even supposed to be here?

This would probably be about twelve to fifteen years ago. As soon as we got there, as soon as and I won't say as soon as I walked on the property, like when I opened the door and I seen the staircase going upstairs, I just got the I was feeling a file filth gross like blah. I mean, I can't even really describe it, just not good. We were unpacking, getting ready to, you know, just put our equipment and get it all charged up. My buddy's cell phone flew off the table into the living room and it's like, oh, okay, that's what this is going to be tonight. First thing, right off the bat, I decide I want to be I want to go down in the basement. And by this guy, i'd heard that there was no Sally ghost. There's no Sally girl that died from a procedure in there, there's no records of it. The story I heard was a lady that lived there back in the day, was dabbling in the occult and black magic in the basement, and supposedly there's a pentagram on the floor. You go down there, there's a big black spot on the floor. Who knows what it is or what it was. But it's about six o'clock. I mean, it's still daylight. And I try some you know, is anyone here can give me a sign, you know, the normal ghost hunting techniques. Fifteen years ago. Nothing's happening. So I decide, well, if this is a cult, I'll try religious provocation. It just makes sense to me, you know. So I go, in the name of Jesus Christ do something and I feel like a bug bite burn on the back of my leg, and I'm like, oh, I just got scratched. This is awesome. So I run upstairs and roll up my pant leg. On the back of my calf. There's a big patch of bald like the hair is burned off my leg and you can smell the burnt hair. You can see singed hair like something burned hair off my leg. And I'm like, uh, that's nuts. This is something way different. So I go up. There's a Catholic college in town. I go up to the gift shop, spend like one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty dollars on crucifixes, holy water, you name it, protection, this and that. I get back down there the holy water bottles are empty. They're just decorative bottles. So I go back up there again. Everything's closed and it's like that scene in The Lost Boys where they're filling up their squirt guns with holy water. Like I walk in a building, I'm like, this is a church. I see water. It's like that's got to be holy water. What else would it be. So I'm like filling up the bottles, looking around, like am I even supposed to be here?

I think you're allowed to do that. I'm not sure, but I think you are.

I think you're allowed to do that. I'm not sure, but I think you are.

Yeah, it's gonna you know, if the cops came, like, come on, I'm getting holy water, you know. So I go back down. I put one of the holy water bottles on where that pentagram supposedly was. We investigate upstairs and everything. I go back downstairs to pick up my holy water bottle. It's empty and there's a lid on the top, but you can see the condensation in the glass. It's like it evaporated out of it. And I ended up leaving early. Just on top of that was feelings, a dread, just something's not right, you know, that fight or flight feeling. And when I got home. That started about three months of me just being really weird, like very like not leave the house, reclusive. I can remember my buddy knocking at my screen door and I shut my main door in his face, and like I won't people leave me alone. I'm sick of people. And then I started getting like mental flashes of like violent acts, like just a little quick one second to make me go, man, what is wrong? Like what's happening here? You know? And I ended up finding a church in town and went for like three days a week there. For a while, I was fine, but I really think something almost got a hold of me.

Yeah, it's gonna you know, if the cops came, like, come on, I'm getting holy water, you know. So I go back down. I put one of the holy water bottles on where that pentagram supposedly was. We investigate upstairs and everything. I go back downstairs to pick up my holy water bottle. It's empty and there's a lid on the top, but you can see the condensation in the glass. It's like it evaporated out of it. And I ended up leaving early. Just on top of that was feelings, a dread, just something's not right, you know, that fight or flight feeling. And when I got home. That started about three months of me just being really weird, like very like not leave the house, reclusive. I can remember my buddy knocking at my screen door and I shut my main door in his face, and like I won't people leave me alone. I'm sick of people. And then I started getting like mental flashes of like violent acts, like just a little quick one second to make me go, man, what is wrong? Like what's happening here? You know? And I ended up finding a church in town and went for like three days a week there. For a while, I was fine, but I really think something almost got a hold of me.

I hear the demon actually in the background of your house right now, right, I think it's still it's still with you, Johnny. It's funny because it's not. I mean, it's not funny at all. So, first of all, you were supposed to be there for three nights. It sounds like you didn't even make it through the first night. That feeling of just something's wrong, Like there's been a few haunts like that where I've walked in and I can almost it almost feels like you're just sick inside. But it's like it's like a weird visceral, like something is very wrong. Here, and I feel it, like physically but also like spiritually in my soul that either there's someone or some sort of energy that's very distraught and upset, or there's something like legitimately dangerous here. And what you're describing is just like so unexplainable. You know, how does that possibly happen? I mean, I the only thing that can happen someone snuck down there and I try to play a joke on yours in which I don't think happened. And then for you to be affected by someone who you know went for so long, you know, you took a picture of bacon barf. That's like, You're not someone who gets scared and has things like stick with you for so long. You know, it's like you were fascinated by those things. So for it to really like kind of affect you that way after, it's really interesting.

I hear the demon actually in the background of your house right now, right, I think it's still it's still with you, Johnny. It's funny because it's not. I mean, it's not funny at all. So, first of all, you were supposed to be there for three nights. It sounds like you didn't even make it through the first night. That feeling of just something's wrong, Like there's been a few haunts like that where I've walked in and I can almost it almost feels like you're just sick inside. But it's like it's like a weird visceral, like something is very wrong. Here, and I feel it, like physically but also like spiritually in my soul that either there's someone or some sort of energy that's very distraught and upset, or there's something like legitimately dangerous here. And what you're describing is just like so unexplainable. You know, how does that possibly happen? I mean, I the only thing that can happen someone snuck down there and I try to play a joke on yours in which I don't think happened. And then for you to be affected by someone who you know went for so long, you know, you took a picture of bacon barf. That's like, You're not someone who gets scared and has things like stick with you for so long. You know, it's like you were fascinated by those things. So for it to really like kind of affect you that way after, it's really interesting.

I remember I drove home in the middle of the night and got home and as soon as I walked in my door, I kind of dropped my bag. I started crying, like I just felt like I got back from war, you know, and all of a sudden, I was like home and it's like, what did I just go through? You know, it's like this flood of emotions just came out. I mean, the weirdness, the weird thoughts and everything. I mean, I was I was married at the time, and my ex wife would say we'd be eaten and you'd just be staring at it, being like you wanted to kill me. I'm like, no, I wasn't. It's like, yeah, you're like what you know, just it's very oppressive. That place is very oppressive and just full of nothing good.

I remember I drove home in the middle of the night and got home and as soon as I walked in my door, I kind of dropped my bag. I started crying, like I just felt like I got back from war, you know, and all of a sudden, I was like home and it's like, what did I just go through? You know, it's like this flood of emotions just came out. I mean, the weirdness, the weird thoughts and everything. I mean, I was I was married at the time, and my ex wife would say we'd be eaten and you'd just be staring at it, being like you wanted to kill me. I'm like, no, I wasn't. It's like, yeah, you're like what you know, just it's very oppressive. That place is very oppressive and just full of nothing good.

Right now, what do you think about I know you did eventually go back, but we'll get to that. But what what do you think about the fact that you know there are people investigating there quite a bit. And I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea of you know, demons and whatnot. I don't really put like a face on things. But I do believe in like true negative type energy, and I think that energy can be human or I think something so terrible and tragic can happen somewhere that it just completely oppresses that space forever, and that some of us can actually like take a bit of that with us and it can physically and mentally affect us, you know. So I you know, I don't have an explanation or an answer. But I also feel like too, if you're combat it with something you believe in, like religion and going to church, if you believe in that, that is how you get rid of that right right now? How do you feel about people investigating there so often? Do you think that is feeding into what's going on there? You know a lot of people walk away.

Right now, what do you think about I know you did eventually go back, but we'll get to that. But what what do you think about the fact that you know there are people investigating there quite a bit. And I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea of you know, demons and whatnot. I don't really put like a face on things. But I do believe in like true negative type energy, and I think that energy can be human or I think something so terrible and tragic can happen somewhere that it just completely oppresses that space forever, and that some of us can actually like take a bit of that with us and it can physically and mentally affect us, you know. So I you know, I don't have an explanation or an answer. But I also feel like too, if you're combat it with something you believe in, like religion and going to church, if you believe in that, that is how you get rid of that right right now? How do you feel about people investigating there so often? Do you think that is feeding into what's going on there? You know a lot of people walk away.

Just completely fine.

Just completely fine.

Others seem to have some pretty like life changing experiences.

Others seem to have some pretty like life changing experiences.

What do you think that does to that house?

What do you think that does to that house?

It absolutely feeds it. I mean I've seen it firsthand at the twenty years I spent at the Axe House. It absolutely fad that place. You know, the more people come and do who knows what in the house that they're not always super respectful investigators that go to these places. Sometimes a lot of times it's just people getting completely wasted and doing who knows what in it most of the time super respectful. But you know, the investigators that I do know are super respectful. I'm not lumping everybody into one thing, but bad things do happen from normal people that go into these places, and I think it just feeds it. And I mean we've all been in relationships that are very oppressive and dark and draining doesn't mean demons. It just people can be that, you know. And I also think these places are like mirrors. They just reflect back to you what you put into it. If like at the Axous, if you think you're talking to little kids, that's what you're going to get. If you think the killers in the house, that's what you're going to get. If you think this, that's what you're going to get. You know, That's the one thing I've learned throughout all these years and these locations is everybody gets different things, vastly different things, day after day. You know, it doesn't really seem like a static type deal. But getting back to your question, I mean absolutely people investigating and going in and giving it energy, giving it time, reacting to what happens. You know, the first thing I learned in the field for residential hauntings is you know, tell the client if something happens, don't overreact and go crazy and oh my gosh, the door just slammed. Everybody, Look, you know, you're just feeding it. Ignore it, Ignore it, and it'll hopefully go away type thing.

It absolutely feeds it. I mean I've seen it firsthand at the twenty years I spent at the Axe House. It absolutely fad that place. You know, the more people come and do who knows what in the house that they're not always super respectful investigators that go to these places. Sometimes a lot of times it's just people getting completely wasted and doing who knows what in it most of the time super respectful. But you know, the investigators that I do know are super respectful. I'm not lumping everybody into one thing, but bad things do happen from normal people that go into these places, and I think it just feeds it. And I mean we've all been in relationships that are very oppressive and dark and draining doesn't mean demons. It just people can be that, you know. And I also think these places are like mirrors. They just reflect back to you what you put into it. If like at the Axous, if you think you're talking to little kids, that's what you're going to get. If you think the killers in the house, that's what you're going to get. If you think this, that's what you're going to get. You know, That's the one thing I've learned throughout all these years and these locations is everybody gets different things, vastly different things, day after day. You know, it doesn't really seem like a static type deal. But getting back to your question, I mean absolutely people investigating and going in and giving it energy, giving it time, reacting to what happens. You know, the first thing I learned in the field for residential hauntings is you know, tell the client if something happens, don't overreact and go crazy and oh my gosh, the door just slammed. Everybody, Look, you know, you're just feeding it. Ignore it, Ignore it, and it'll hopefully go away type thing.

It's like a bully.

It's like a bully.

When you stop giving them the reaction they want, you know, and I think that's probably one of the reasons. Like me as an investigator, it's very rare that I encounter anything negative because I'm like the most cheerful ghost hunter that's ever, you know, Like I walk into every place laughing and giggling and like I would be the most if I were like a mean ghost, I'd be so annoyed with me.

When you stop giving them the reaction they want, you know, and I think that's probably one of the reasons. Like me as an investigator, it's very rare that I encounter anything negative because I'm like the most cheerful ghost hunter that's ever, you know, Like I walk into every place laughing and giggling and like I would be the most if I were like a mean ghost, I'd be so annoyed with me.

So you come in that the ghosts is like, I'm going to light her up, and it's like she's so nice.

So you come in that the ghosts is like, I'm going to light her up, and it's like she's so nice.

Though it's my defense. Everyone's like, what do you do.

Though it's my defense. Everyone's like, what do you do.

I'm like, just don't care, just be nice. They don't they want That's my solution to everything. Although I am very I do want to visit the Sally House. I am definitely going to try to make it in twenty twenty five. And so now kind of circling back, you you go back.

I'm like, just don't care, just be nice. They don't they want That's my solution to everything. Although I am very I do want to visit the Sally House. I am definitely going to try to make it in twenty twenty five. And so now kind of circling back, you you go back.

How long did it take you to go back? Why did you go back?

How long did it take you to go back? Why did you go back?

Well, the initial time I went back maybe a few months later, and that time it was the same thing, very oppressive, very terrifying. I ended up leaving in the middle of the night again. And in fact, there's a popular ghost hunting show. I'm not going to say which one, it is, but one of the cast members is in the basement and they go to crawl inside the hole in the basement in the wall. They step on a little TV set to get in that hole. That's I left that there. We were doing video iving. I left all my gear there. It's like, I don't care, I'll just buy more. I'm not going to the house ever again.

Well, the initial time I went back maybe a few months later, and that time it was the same thing, very oppressive, very terrifying. I ended up leaving in the middle of the night again. And in fact, there's a popular ghost hunting show. I'm not going to say which one, it is, but one of the cast members is in the basement and they go to crawl inside the hole in the basement in the wall. They step on a little TV set to get in that hole. That's I left that there. We were doing video iving. I left all my gear there. It's like, I don't care, I'll just buy more. I'm not going to the house ever again.

And so what was why what happened that time? It was just the feeling or did an experience happen that set you over the edge?

And so what was why what happened that time? It was just the feeling or did an experience happen that set you over the edge?

I mean there were experiences like I got shoved. I was at the top of the stairs just standing and I got shoved like almost down the steps, and I braced myself on the railing. But then I'm like, well, maybe I was locking my knees. You know, I'm trying to debunk it my head and it happened again. But stuff like that I can handle, like big deal, you know it was. What I can't take is the mental manipulation. Something bad is about to happen real soon that I don't like. You know, So I left sore. I'd never go back, ended up going back again.

I mean there were experiences like I got shoved. I was at the top of the stairs just standing and I got shoved like almost down the steps, and I braced myself on the railing. But then I'm like, well, maybe I was locking my knees. You know, I'm trying to debunk it my head and it happened again. But stuff like that I can handle, like big deal, you know it was. What I can't take is the mental manipulation. Something bad is about to happen real soon that I don't like. You know, So I left sore. I'd never go back, ended up going back again.

You're good at keeping promises to yourself.

You're good at keeping promises to yourself.

That's it. I don't. I don't like something beating me, you know.

That's it. I don't. I don't like something beating me, you know.

No, I told I would be the same way. Absolutely, I can't do this.

No, I told I would be the same way. Absolutely, I can't do this.

I can't let this beat me. So I go down again and I do this experiment down in the basement on top of the pentagram and asked to do it like light therapy. It's it's almost like the Estes method, but it's with a light therapy, light getting to the boring details, but creates like a tunnel inside your mind. And I did it, and all of a sudden, all I seen was the steps of the Volaska's murder house and like boots walking up the steps. And I tried to force it out of my mind. I'm like, you know, that's just what you are used to keep an open mind, and it kept going back to that. Well, then it went into like the kids room and kind of alluded to what happened there, and again I got super emotional, like it's almost like I was feeling what the Morris felt that night. It's terrified. I was emotional. I was sad. Guys. I got to take a break, like this is too much, So we go out front. It's about two in the morning on a Tuesday. It's dark, it's foggy. It's one of those just summer nights. Every time I've been to the Sally House, you always get teenagers congregating out front. I mean, it just happens every single time. So we're sitting there and also to see a figure emerge out of the fog about a block away, and I'll look to my buddy, I'm like, you know, weirdo coming up behind you, you know, and it's a full blown Catholic monk with the robe with the hood up and the little rope tight around his waist, walks through us, does not say a word, doesn't even look at us. As soon as he passes the house, he does like the sign of the Cross on his body and disappears into the fog. And everybody's just like, uh what. And I'm like, guys, I'm out. They're like, oh, you can't leave. It's like, I don't know what that was, But do Catholic priests just roam around and full regalia at two am on a Tuesday? Like no, Like, you know, big guy, I don't listen to you, but I'm listening tonight. So message loud and clear.

I can't let this beat me. So I go down again and I do this experiment down in the basement on top of the pentagram and asked to do it like light therapy. It's it's almost like the Estes method, but it's with a light therapy, light getting to the boring details, but creates like a tunnel inside your mind. And I did it, and all of a sudden, all I seen was the steps of the Volaska's murder house and like boots walking up the steps. And I tried to force it out of my mind. I'm like, you know, that's just what you are used to keep an open mind, and it kept going back to that. Well, then it went into like the kids room and kind of alluded to what happened there, and again I got super emotional, like it's almost like I was feeling what the Morris felt that night. It's terrified. I was emotional. I was sad. Guys. I got to take a break, like this is too much, So we go out front. It's about two in the morning on a Tuesday. It's dark, it's foggy. It's one of those just summer nights. Every time I've been to the Sally House, you always get teenagers congregating out front. I mean, it just happens every single time. So we're sitting there and also to see a figure emerge out of the fog about a block away, and I'll look to my buddy, I'm like, you know, weirdo coming up behind you, you know, and it's a full blown Catholic monk with the robe with the hood up and the little rope tight around his waist, walks through us, does not say a word, doesn't even look at us. As soon as he passes the house, he does like the sign of the Cross on his body and disappears into the fog. And everybody's just like, uh what. And I'm like, guys, I'm out. They're like, oh, you can't leave. It's like, I don't know what that was, But do Catholic priests just roam around and full regalia at two am on a Tuesday? Like no, Like, you know, big guy, I don't listen to you, but I'm listening tonight. So message loud and clear.

Okay, So when you say walk through, you like walked between you guys, are like literally walked for you?

Okay, So when you say walk through, you like walked between you guys, are like literally walked for you?

Like, was this like a spiritual form or was this a physical.

Like, was this like a spiritual form or was this a physical.

Person like between us, like a physical person? I'm assuming he was real.

Person like between us, like a physical person? I'm assuming he was real.

Oh so he's just on like Sally House duty or.

Oh so he's just on like Sally House duty or.

I mean, that's I have no idea, Like I've never seen anything like that in my life. Like he walked up and one of us like, hey, how you doing? And he didn't say anything, So he just kind of moved out of his way, and that's when he did the sign of the cross and kept walking and just disappeared into the fog.

I mean, that's I have no idea, Like I've never seen anything like that in my life. Like he walked up and one of us like, hey, how you doing? And he didn't say anything, So he just kind of moved out of his way, and that's when he did the sign of the cross and kept walking and just disappeared into the fog.

That's I wonder is there a place he would have come from locally like that there?

That's I wonder is there a place he would have come from locally like that there?

Well, there's a it's a big Catholic college in that town. But it was Ah. So we go to get coffee earlier in that day, and this might have been what explains it. We go to get coffee and school is out for summer. The guy making coffee is a college professor at the Catholic school. He's like, Oh, what are you guys in town for. We're like, how this We're staying at the Sally House. He goes, Ah, that's our arch nemesis. So I don't know if he sent one of his homeboys down to like give us a little extra umph, like a little extra protection or what.

Well, there's a it's a big Catholic college in that town. But it was Ah. So we go to get coffee earlier in that day, and this might have been what explains it. We go to get coffee and school is out for summer. The guy making coffee is a college professor at the Catholic school. He's like, Oh, what are you guys in town for. We're like, how this We're staying at the Sally House. He goes, Ah, that's our arch nemesis. So I don't know if he sent one of his homeboys down to like give us a little extra umph, like a little extra protection or what.

But yeah, or maybe it's just so well known that you know, maybe he was taking a midnight stroll and like that's just what they do when they walk by it. That's just their automatic response. I mean, that's just that's a really wild story. And so you at that point you're like, I'm done.

But yeah, or maybe it's just so well known that you know, maybe he was taking a midnight stroll and like that's just what they do when they walk by it. That's just their automatic response. I mean, that's just that's a really wild story. And so you at that point you're like, I'm done.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like I don't know what that means, but hanging around to find out, Like at some point, if you're going to be stupid, you gotta be.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like I don't know what that means, but hanging around to find out, Like at some point, if you're going to be stupid, you gotta be.

Yeah, the universe only gives you so many signs and you know, so okay, so now have you been back since then?

Yeah, the universe only gives you so many signs and you know, so okay, so now have you been back since then?

I have not been back since then.

I have not been back since then.

Yeah, And okay, that so just like point blank, like what do you think is going on there?

Yeah, And okay, that so just like point blank, like what do you think is going on there?

I think there's some thing negative there, But I think there's like where negative things happen, negative things are attracted to, you know. I don't think it's the big D word, right, And I personally would have nothing to do with it, you know, And I think that there'd be a lot worse happening from there. I don't know, it's not the Sally Ghost, right. But then I've talked to people that have stayed the night there and oh it is boring. Nothing happened.

I think there's some thing negative there, But I think there's like where negative things happen, negative things are attracted to, you know. I don't think it's the big D word, right, And I personally would have nothing to do with it, you know, And I think that there'd be a lot worse happening from there. I don't know, it's not the Sally Ghost, right. But then I've talked to people that have stayed the night there and oh it is boring. Nothing happened.

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I think that happens at every punted location. I have to remind people. I'm like, well, they're not like there to perform for you, Like some nights are great, some nights are quiet. That's part of the part of the gig.

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I think that happens at every punted location. I have to remind people. I'm like, well, they're not like there to perform for you, Like some nights are great, some nights are quiet. That's part of the part of the gig.

You know.

You know.

But you know, I just I find that that place very interesting, just in the sense that, well, I trust you implicitly with your information, you know, so it always depends on where that kind of information is coming from for me, and so I just find it very interesting. Now can you imagine the people that lived there for so long? Can you imagine living there on a daily basis?