Pick up pick pick pick up place. I mean, okay, yeah.

Pick up pick pick pick up place. I mean, okay, yeah.

We could just throw a dart at the wall and we'll hit something interesting. At this point, Well, where I normally like to start with people is actually to rewind from the present, because I sit across from so many folks like yourself, who are accomplished and who have these incredible, you know, resumes and lists of accolades. But I'm curious if you got to, you know, bend space time and sit with your eight year old self, if you would see in her the sort of inklings of who you are today, your career, your personality, or could you have never expected this at eight?

We could just throw a dart at the wall and we'll hit something interesting. At this point, Well, where I normally like to start with people is actually to rewind from the present, because I sit across from so many folks like yourself, who are accomplished and who have these incredible, you know, resumes and lists of accolades. But I'm curious if you got to, you know, bend space time and sit with your eight year old self, if you would see in her the sort of inklings of who you are today, your career, your personality, or could you have never expected this at eight?

That's a great question.

That's a great question.

I'm jealous because I do a podcast like this as well and never thought to ask that one. It's a great one.

I'm jealous because I do a podcast like this as well and never thought to ask that one. It's a great one.

Yes and no.

Yes and no.

I was a bit of a ham as a kid. I was a performer. I did, I danced ballet, and I acted. I sang. So the idea that I would have a forward facing, front facing job would not have surprised me, but I would have assumed it would have been.

I was a bit of a ham as a kid. I was a performer. I did, I danced ballet, and I acted. I sang. So the idea that I would have a forward facing, front facing job would not have surprised me, but I would have assumed it would have been.

More creative in the creative arts.

More creative in the creative arts.

But I was always very curious, and I was interested in the news.

But I was always very curious, and I was interested in the news.

At a very early age, and so I don't.

At a very early age, and so I don't.

Think I would have put together that it would have led me here to a career in journalism and definitely not to a career on television. But I think if I, if I looked back, there were inklings of who I would become. I didn't know that i'd be a mother. That's something that came to me much later in life. I didn't know that I'd love being a.

Think I would have put together that it would have led me here to a career in journalism and definitely not to a career on television. But I think if I, if I looked back, there were inklings of who I would become. I didn't know that i'd be a mother. That's something that came to me much later in life. I didn't know that I'd love being a.

Mother, But no, I think there were shreds of it.

Mother, But no, I think there were shreds of it.

Was I was very independent, I was an only child, so yeah, some of it, Yes, some of it I could say interesting.

Was I was very independent, I was an only child, so yeah, some of it, Yes, some of it I could say interesting.

And what do you think drew you to the news? Was there this sort of breaking news current events aspect of it all. Was it that you found the inner workings of politics really interesting? What? What was this part?

And what do you think drew you to the news? Was there this sort of breaking news current events aspect of it all. Was it that you found the inner workings of politics really interesting? What? What was this part?

Yeah?

Yeah?

For me, it wasn't even the stories themselves, it was the way they were being covered. I remember it ten or eleven, lying on my living room floor with my parents watching the Gulf War and being less interested in the geopolitics of it that I was in the way Bernie Shaw was reporting on it for CNN, which is like wild because now here I am. But I mean that's a real early memory of loving, like getting obsessed with news coverage of major events, and that carried with me through, you know, all of the history of my young adult life, wanting to see how people covered those stories, and in particular watching women like Diane Sawyer and Jane Pauley cover big stories and the places they would find themselves.

For me, it wasn't even the stories themselves, it was the way they were being covered. I remember it ten or eleven, lying on my living room floor with my parents watching the Gulf War and being less interested in the geopolitics of it that I was in the way Bernie Shaw was reporting on it for CNN, which is like wild because now here I am. But I mean that's a real early memory of loving, like getting obsessed with news coverage of major events, and that carried with me through, you know, all of the history of my young adult life, wanting to see how people covered those stories, and in particular watching women like Diane Sawyer and Jane Pauley cover big stories and the places they would find themselves.

I love to travel.

I love to travel.

As a kid, I thought that, you know, traveling as a newsperson sounded amazing. I know, when I was seventeen, a magazine came out about the news, and I spent my own allowance to get a some description to this magazine.

As a kid, I thought that, you know, traveling as a newsperson sounded amazing. I know, when I was seventeen, a magazine came out about the news, and I spent my own allowance to get a some description to this magazine.

Like I was kind of a nerd, a media nerd.

Like I was kind of a nerd, a media nerd.

And when I got to college and I worked at the school newspaper, I knew, this is what I want to do.

And when I got to college and I worked at the school newspaper, I knew, this is what I want to do.

This is what I was made to do. I was built to do this.

This is what I was made to do. I was built to do this.

Television wasn't on the radar at all, but journalism, you know, it was clear by the time I could choose that's what I wanted to do.

Television wasn't on the radar at all, but journalism, you know, it was clear by the time I could choose that's what I wanted to do.

Okay, And what do you remember then about your first TV appearance?

Okay, And what do you remember then about your first TV appearance?

So I had just written a book with a co author and Simon to choose to publish it, and it was a political book, and they decided, well, we need to go on TV and promote it.

So I had just written a book with a co author and Simon to choose to publish it, and it was a political book, and they decided, well, we need to go on TV and promote it.

So our first appearance was on Morning Joe.

So our first appearance was on Morning Joe.

And all I remember, Sophia is is my co author being very nervous.

And all I remember, Sophia is is my co author being very nervous.

And me being not at all nervous. And I thought, in.

And me being not at all nervous. And I thought, in.

Those moments, this is either going to go terribly that badly for me because of my hubris, Like why am I not nervous or it's going to serve me well. And it served me well. I didn't get nervous. I could put sentences together, and they just kept asking me back to talk about the next political story. I think I was something of a novelty then. I was a young female conservative in Manhattan and who had just written a book defending conservatism, and.

Those moments, this is either going to go terribly that badly for me because of my hubris, Like why am I not nervous or it's going to serve me well. And it served me well. I didn't get nervous. I could put sentences together, and they just kept asking me back to talk about the next political story. I think I was something of a novelty then. I was a young female conservative in Manhattan and who had just written a book defending conservatism, and.

So it was a bit of a novelty.

So it was a bit of a novelty.

I had to prove that I was smart and that I could hang through every news cycle. But yeah, they just kept bringing me back to talk about politics, and I did because it helped promote my writing.

I had to prove that I was smart and that I could hang through every news cycle. But yeah, they just kept bringing me back to talk about politics, and I did because it helped promote my writing.

And that's all I cared about, was the writing.

And that's all I cared about, was the writing.

I didn't foresee TV really taking over, you know, my career the way it has. But it's been a great and very lucky, fortunate turn of events because not only do I get to write, which is what matters to me, but I also get a platform to tell stories visually and orally and you know, shine a light on issues that really matter to me.

I didn't foresee TV really taking over, you know, my career the way it has. But it's been a great and very lucky, fortunate turn of events because not only do I get to write, which is what matters to me, but I also get a platform to tell stories visually and orally and you know, shine a light on issues that really matter to me.

I love it, and it's it's exciting to me, you know, for us to sit down because there's this sort of narrative out in the world that you know, folks who are I think ideologically perhaps identified by the public, but not known in the incrementalism required to you know, be a full human or perhaps form our opinions. People might think, well, there's no way Sarah's going to go on Sophia's podcast, And there's no ways if you would go on, Sarah. It's like they'll just assume we don't want to speak to each other because we quote come from different sides of the aisle. And what excites me, particularly in a moment like this, is we're both talking about many of the things we agree on, particularly you know, the founding ideals of this country and what liberty looks like and all of these things. And I'm saying all of this because I'm looking at the question I had meant to ask you next, which was what has been the most challenging time of your career so far? And I was like, I wonder if it was maybe when you had to sort of speak out about the insanity of this cult of trump Ism in the last election, you know, none of us being able to forward think to where we are in present day, which is the reason I'm just going ahead and saying all of this just to say, who to thunk it?

I love it, and it's it's exciting to me, you know, for us to sit down because there's this sort of narrative out in the world that you know, folks who are I think ideologically perhaps identified by the public, but not known in the incrementalism required to you know, be a full human or perhaps form our opinions. People might think, well, there's no way Sarah's going to go on Sophia's podcast, And there's no ways if you would go on, Sarah. It's like they'll just assume we don't want to speak to each other because we quote come from different sides of the aisle. And what excites me, particularly in a moment like this, is we're both talking about many of the things we agree on, particularly you know, the founding ideals of this country and what liberty looks like and all of these things. And I'm saying all of this because I'm looking at the question I had meant to ask you next, which was what has been the most challenging time of your career so far? And I was like, I wonder if it was maybe when you had to sort of speak out about the insanity of this cult of trump Ism in the last election, you know, none of us being able to forward think to where we are in present day, which is the reason I'm just going ahead and saying all of this just to say, who to thunk it?

Yeah, here we are.

Yeah, here we are.

It seems like a silly question to ask, but I do want to know the answer. And it's okay if that answer is right now, because our our collective, our America's house is on fire. Like, how do you, as someone who came up as a self identifying conservative who has pushed back on a lot of this insanity?

It seems like a silly question to ask, but I do want to know the answer. And it's okay if that answer is right now, because our our collective, our America's house is on fire. Like, how do you, as someone who came up as a self identifying conservative who has pushed back on a lot of this insanity?

Like all of it? Like almost, yeah, yeah.

Like all of it? Like almost, yeah, yeah.

Okay, a few things, and you pick where we start. How did you find the courage to say this is unacceptable? Also, this is lawless?

Okay, a few things, and you pick where we start. How did you find the courage to say this is unacceptable? Also, this is lawless?

Huh? You did it?

Huh? You did it?

Then we've unfortunately come back to the bad place. How are you doing it now? Is it a threat to your career because people have certainly told me that my outspokenness about politics has threatened and hurt my career forever. But I think it's my duty as a citizen.

Then we've unfortunately come back to the bad place. How are you doing it now? Is it a threat to your career because people have certainly told me that my outspokenness about politics has threatened and hurt my career forever. But I think it's my duty as a citizen.

Like, girl, what are we doing next?

Like, girl, what are we doing next?

Can you just give us all sort of a lay of the land for you since twenty sixteen and how you view it now that we've been through this once before.

Can you just give us all sort of a lay of the land for you since twenty sixteen and how you view it now that we've been through this once before.

There's a lot in there, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. And let me start by saying, I'm paid to do what I do.

There's a lot in there, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. And let me start by saying, I'm paid to do what I do.

The courage you have in doing this and waiting into this space. This is explicitly not what you're paid to do. So taking that leap, upsetting the apple cart of your career.

The courage you have in doing this and waiting into this space. This is explicitly not what you're paid to do. So taking that leap, upsetting the apple cart of your career.

Was a huge risk.

Was a huge risk.

And I'm sure it's paying off for you personally, professionally.

And I'm sure it's paying off for you personally, professionally.

In all the ways, but huge, huge risk for you.

In all the ways, but huge, huge risk for you.

It's a risk for me because I was inside of this establishment, both a media establishment and a political establishment that now sees me as a trader. And there's a physical risk because I get death threats and attempts silence me and actual attacks. That part's not fun, but I am this is what I'm paid to do, and I could do it a couple of ways. I have a lot of friends who came up like I did, and to Si Wall, just keep going where the power is, and I'll start justifying stuff. Stuff that I know is not right, that I know at very least isn't conservative, but I also know isn't right, isn't good for the country, maybe isn't good for our party. I'll just start justifying it because it'll help me keep my job, and it'll help me keep my friends. It might even bring me more money and power out of blah blah blah, lots of people did that.

It's a risk for me because I was inside of this establishment, both a media establishment and a political establishment that now sees me as a trader. And there's a physical risk because I get death threats and attempts silence me and actual attacks. That part's not fun, but I am this is what I'm paid to do, and I could do it a couple of ways. I have a lot of friends who came up like I did, and to Si Wall, just keep going where the power is, and I'll start justifying stuff. Stuff that I know is not right, that I know at very least isn't conservative, but I also know isn't right, isn't good for the country, maybe isn't good for our party. I'll just start justifying it because it'll help me keep my job, and it'll help me keep my friends. It might even bring me more money and power out of blah blah blah, lots of people did that.

I could have decided I'm out. I don't want to do this.

I could have decided I'm out. I don't want to do this.

I don't want to put my hand on the hot stove. I don't want this heat. I don't like what's going on. But I also don't want to be at the center of it or involved in it. I'll go do something else. I decided to stay and say what I believed, and it's come with professional and personal peril, but I need to sleep at night, and I need to know, Okay, what did I do with this platform that in a way I lucked into What am I going to do with it?

I don't want to put my hand on the hot stove. I don't want this heat. I don't like what's going on. But I also don't want to be at the center of it or involved in it. I'll go do something else. I decided to stay and say what I believed, and it's come with professional and personal peril, but I need to sleep at night, and I need to know, Okay, what did I do with this platform that in a way I lucked into What am I going to do with it?

And how am I going to use it responsibly?

And how am I going to use it responsibly?

So the idea that I would justify what Trump and then Republicans have done never crossed my mind. That option was never a possibility for me. I couldn't do it, and I believe so deeply in conservative principles.

So the idea that I would justify what Trump and then Republicans have done never crossed my mind. That option was never a possibility for me. I couldn't do it, and I believe so deeply in conservative principles.

And let me just say one thing.

And let me just say one thing.

I am grateful to Donald Trump for one reason, because we've all had to shed some of the things that quote unquote defined us and talk to each other like people, like empathetic, compassionate people. You and I agree on so much that we would not have identified eight years earlier because we wouldn't have You were on this side, I was on this side. I don't know that we would have sat down for a conversation. We've had to strip some of that away to say, what do we agree on? There's so much and that stuff is actually so so very important. So I you know, I've gone through many phases in my career where I was a right wing media darling. I moved from Fox to MSNBC. I was the token conservative and I got the hate from the far left. Moved to CNN, found myself being a bit more centrist as a reaction to what was going on, and then became you know, just from the jump anti Trump resistance, this isn't right.

I am grateful to Donald Trump for one reason, because we've all had to shed some of the things that quote unquote defined us and talk to each other like people, like empathetic, compassionate people. You and I agree on so much that we would not have identified eight years earlier because we wouldn't have You were on this side, I was on this side. I don't know that we would have sat down for a conversation. We've had to strip some of that away to say, what do we agree on? There's so much and that stuff is actually so so very important. So I you know, I've gone through many phases in my career where I was a right wing media darling. I moved from Fox to MSNBC. I was the token conservative and I got the hate from the far left. Moved to CNN, found myself being a bit more centrist as a reaction to what was going on, and then became you know, just from the jump anti Trump resistance, this isn't right.

And now all the.

And now all the.

Hates coming from me from people I used to know. So it's been disorienting. It's taken a toll on my mental health. The hardest part of my career has been the last eight years, from twenty fifteen, I guess ten now to now, because not only has it been hard to professionally cover the flood, the zone chaos of it, but it's personal for me. A lot of these people were friends and colleagues, and it's been super disorienting to be in one place and now I'm ostracized and it's fine, but figuring out who I.

Hates coming from me from people I used to know. So it's been disorienting. It's taken a toll on my mental health. The hardest part of my career has been the last eight years, from twenty fifteen, I guess ten now to now, because not only has it been hard to professionally cover the flood, the zone chaos of it, but it's personal for me. A lot of these people were friends and colleagues, and it's been super disorienting to be in one place and now I'm ostracized and it's fine, but figuring out who I.

Am, where do I belong?

Am, where do I belong?

Yeah?

Yeah?

And I also had a mental breakdown, like I had a nervous breakdown in twenty twenty one and had to figure out do I need to do this anymore? And can I and be healthy? Yeah?

And I also had a mental breakdown, like I had a nervous breakdown in twenty twenty one and had to figure out do I need to do this anymore? And can I and be healthy? Yeah?

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I love how Frank You're willing to be about so much of this that point, especially for some reason, everyone everyone will say to people in media, particularly women in media, oh, will you asked for this?

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I love how Frank You're willing to be about so much of this that point, especially for some reason, everyone everyone will say to people in media, particularly women in media, oh, will you asked for this?

Yeah? Comes with a job, right.

Yeah? Comes with a job, right.

Nobody asked for this. Nobody asked to be stocked or rass to be threatened with death. I'm there. I actually had, particularly during you know, the fight against him, you know, fifteen into sixteen in the last administration, when I became one of the major like repeats, constant articles written on Brightbart targets. I had some friends of I would say ours people on all sides of the political spectrum say, well, you kind of have to wear it as a badge of honor because if they're coming after you, it means you're an incredibly effective messenger. You tell the truth. Well, you're not such a policy wonk that people too now because it's all numbers. You're communicating effectively and they don't like it, so they want to scare you. And I said, Wow, it's really wild that a media establishment would say we need to attack this citizen for saying that, you know, dictatorship tactics or dictatorship tactics by making crazy people want to kill her.

Nobody asked for this. Nobody asked to be stocked or rass to be threatened with death. I'm there. I actually had, particularly during you know, the fight against him, you know, fifteen into sixteen in the last administration, when I became one of the major like repeats, constant articles written on Brightbart targets. I had some friends of I would say ours people on all sides of the political spectrum say, well, you kind of have to wear it as a badge of honor because if they're coming after you, it means you're an incredibly effective messenger. You tell the truth. Well, you're not such a policy wonk that people too now because it's all numbers. You're communicating effectively and they don't like it, so they want to scare you. And I said, Wow, it's really wild that a media establishment would say we need to attack this citizen for saying that, you know, dictatorship tactics or dictatorship tactics by making crazy people want to kill her.

Ye, And you've been there, and I.

Ye, And you've been there, and I.

Have certainly had to learn to deal with anxiety. I have had to learn to deal with terror. I have made excellent friends in many arenas of local and federal law enforcement. It is so it's so crazy to have to learn to navigate those things. And I know what it's like to not want to leave my house. How are you? I admire that you're able to just tell it like it is, and I admire that you're willing to talk about it and be honest. So what does in your definition, what does a nervous breakdown look like? How do you realize it's happening? And how do you get on the other side of it? Because there are people at home who I know are desperate to understand this better.

Have certainly had to learn to deal with anxiety. I have had to learn to deal with terror. I have made excellent friends in many arenas of local and federal law enforcement. It is so it's so crazy to have to learn to navigate those things. And I know what it's like to not want to leave my house. How are you? I admire that you're able to just tell it like it is, and I admire that you're willing to talk about it and be honest. So what does in your definition, what does a nervous breakdown look like? How do you realize it's happening? And how do you get on the other side of it? Because there are people at home who I know are desperate to understand this better.

Yeah, I do too, And it's why I talk about it a lot, because when you talk about it, it gets easier to talk about it, and talking about it is the first barrier to getting mental health help. Yah, So talking about it is paramount for me. It was twenty twenty one, and it's not like one thing happened. I had been an anxious person, unknowingly for most of my life, and as such, I had created habits that I thought were keeping me safe. They were not catastrophizing, which is you know, I would do this all day.

Yeah, I do too, And it's why I talk about it a lot, because when you talk about it, it gets easier to talk about it, and talking about it is the first barrier to getting mental health help. Yah, So talking about it is paramount for me. It was twenty twenty one, and it's not like one thing happened. I had been an anxious person, unknowingly for most of my life, and as such, I had created habits that I thought were keeping me safe. They were not catastrophizing, which is you know, I would do this all day.

I would occupy.

I would occupy.

My brain with the worst thing that could happen at any given second. So if I'm driving, it's a car accident. If my son's at school, it's something happening at school. But it would at its worst, it would be twenty four seven. And it was emotionally, physically, mentally exhausting. But I told myself, if I don't do that, it'll happen. The bad thing will happen. So then I was bargaining with my anxiety, making deals with my anxiety. If I do this to myself, it won't actually happen. And I didn't realize I didn't process that I was doing this, and I, in fact thought, this is what responsible people do. They are constantly thinking about what could go wrong, preparing. Doesn't everyone go into a restaurant and look for all the exits, you know, just stuff that I thought was like, I'm a responsible this is adulting.

My brain with the worst thing that could happen at any given second. So if I'm driving, it's a car accident. If my son's at school, it's something happening at school. But it would at its worst, it would be twenty four seven. And it was emotionally, physically, mentally exhausting. But I told myself, if I don't do that, it'll happen. The bad thing will happen. So then I was bargaining with my anxiety, making deals with my anxiety. If I do this to myself, it won't actually happen. And I didn't realize I didn't process that I was doing this, and I, in fact thought, this is what responsible people do. They are constantly thinking about what could go wrong, preparing. Doesn't everyone go into a restaurant and look for all the exits, you know, just stuff that I thought was like, I'm a responsible this is adulting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

By the time, you know.

By the time, you know.

I'd been doing this for a very long time to myself and other awful habits too, my body said enough. One day, I had an anxiety attack in public.

I'd been doing this for a very long time to myself and other awful habits too, my body said enough. One day, I had an anxiety attack in public.

Went home.

Went home.

My vision was I couldn't see very well, I couldn't hear very well. Things were jumbled. I laid in bed for about three days. I couldn't focus on anything. I didn't understand. I'd turned on the TV. I didn't understand like the news. I was instantly very sad, and I had not been like depressed or anything.

My vision was I couldn't see very well, I couldn't hear very well. Things were jumbled. I laid in bed for about three days. I couldn't focus on anything. I didn't understand. I'd turned on the TV. I didn't understand like the news. I was instantly very sad, and I had not been like depressed or anything.

I was overwhelmed. Yeah, and the good news is it was so severe and debilitating. I knew I needed help right away.

I was overwhelmed. Yeah, and the good news is it was so severe and debilitating. I knew I needed help right away.

And so there was no like I'll sleep this off or I'll take a break. This was what is happening to me, and I need help today.

And so there was no like I'll sleep this off or I'll take a break. This was what is happening to me, and I need help today.

So I did. I got several doctors, embarked on.

So I did. I got several doctors, embarked on.

A therapy journey, a medication journey, and for the past four years I've been in therapy to deal with this severe anxiety that is at its worst totally took over my life. I didn't know you didn't have to live that way. And so my message is always talk about it, because if I had known some of the habits, some of the tricks we did as anxious people, I might have gotten help earlier, before I was twenty years into these habits when it's so hard to unlearn them. Yes, and I'm writing a book now about anxiety, and it's about my journey to learn how to live without anxiety because I learned to live with it really well. I got great at it, of course, right, but and it's addicting.

A therapy journey, a medication journey, and for the past four years I've been in therapy to deal with this severe anxiety that is at its worst totally took over my life. I didn't know you didn't have to live that way. And so my message is always talk about it, because if I had known some of the habits, some of the tricks we did as anxious people, I might have gotten help earlier, before I was twenty years into these habits when it's so hard to unlearn them. Yes, and I'm writing a book now about anxiety, and it's about my journey to learn how to live without anxiety because I learned to live with it really well. I got great at it, of course, right, but and it's addicting.

It can be addicting.

It can be addicting.

Well, what it does, even just in your body hormonally, when you are constantly in fight or flight and you are pumping adrenaline exactly right when you start to stop doing that, you're exhausted because you're feeling the exhaustion of the four years that you've been running on pure adrenaline that you've essentially been over caffeinated, and you're feeling the exhaustion of a body that is missing something that's been keeping it in forward motion. It kind of feels like you get hit by a bus, yeah daily, start to not be a level ten anxious person all the time.

Well, what it does, even just in your body hormonally, when you are constantly in fight or flight and you are pumping adrenaline exactly right when you start to stop doing that, you're exhausted because you're feeling the exhaustion of the four years that you've been running on pure adrenaline that you've essentially been over caffeinated, and you're feeling the exhaustion of a body that is missing something that's been keeping it in forward motion. It kind of feels like you get hit by a bus, yeah daily, start to not be a level ten anxious person all the time.

Yeah yeah.

Yeah yeah.

And I think that's part of what's so important to talk about as well, is what it feels like to heal and how healing can sometimes be the beginning of it's painful, very And I think it's part of why I admire the way that you talk about this. It's part of why you know, I have chosen to be very frank about what it was like to leave a workplace that was very toxic and violent for me because it was making me so sick, and what it took to recuperate from that, and and the sort of aha moment I had when I finally said I'm at a breaking point and people who I'd been asking to help me change it for four years, when we had no idea, and I was like, what have you not been listening? A and then B I had to look inward and go, oh, how has my adrenaline pump been masking how bad?

And I think that's part of what's so important to talk about as well, is what it feels like to heal and how healing can sometimes be the beginning of it's painful, very And I think it's part of why I admire the way that you talk about this. It's part of why you know, I have chosen to be very frank about what it was like to leave a workplace that was very toxic and violent for me because it was making me so sick, and what it took to recuperate from that, and and the sort of aha moment I had when I finally said I'm at a breaking point and people who I'd been asking to help me change it for four years, when we had no idea, and I was like, what have you not been listening? A and then B I had to look inward and go, oh, how has my adrenaline pump been masking how bad?

This is exactly right, and.

This is exactly right, and.

It it's weird because it's all the things, particularly as women in these competitive industries and these very cutthroat spaces that you get rewarded for. You're such a good soldier, you're such a good tugboat, you're never tired, you're you're a good troop leader. They like to use a lot of like military terminology with us about how tough you are, and you know that old like.

It it's weird because it's all the things, particularly as women in these competitive industries and these very cutthroat spaces that you get rewarded for. You're such a good soldier, you're such a good tugboat, you're never tired, you're you're a good troop leader. They like to use a lot of like military terminology with us about how tough you are, and you know that old like.

You're not like the other girls.

You're not like the other girls.

And then you're like, oh, wow, that's patriarchy. That's trying to kill us all, including you. Cool, but it takes a while to realize, Oh, those things that I used to wear like a badge of honor have been doing such harm to me.

And then you're like, oh, wow, that's patriarchy. That's trying to kill us all, including you. Cool, but it takes a while to realize, Oh, those things that I used to wear like a badge of honor have been doing such harm to me.

Yeah, and.

Yeah, and.

I'm going to go back to what you said earlier. I love watching you nod because again people are going to be like, well, you guys wouldn't agree on anything, and we're sitting here going we agree on so much, Yeah, including how detrimental some of these systems are, including as you said, things have been stripped away. We can't deny what toxicity is. We can't deny how upended our cysams are. You know, there's that great I don't know if it's a meme or a phrase or whatever we want to call it. When they go around Instagram. I don't know how they get redefined, but where people say, you know, you can't claim to be the party of small government and tell people who they can love, where where, and how they can live, how they can dress, what they can read, what they you know, where they can get safe water and where not like the list, you can't say that you know. And then somebody said, well, now you have to add you can't claim to be, you know, the party of limited government and have created twenty five percent of the entire national debt in four years in the country that's existed for two ald and fifty. How do you you know you're talking about the personal realigning, you know, clicking things into place in a healthier way. How as someone who did come up on the conservative end of this pendulums, how have you begun to click things back into authentic reality? And say, is anybody going to pay attention to the difference between what we say and what we do? Because everybody out there, particularly people who listen to my podcast, like they know what I think about this stuff. For you making sense of this.

I'm going to go back to what you said earlier. I love watching you nod because again people are going to be like, well, you guys wouldn't agree on anything, and we're sitting here going we agree on so much, Yeah, including how detrimental some of these systems are, including as you said, things have been stripped away. We can't deny what toxicity is. We can't deny how upended our cysams are. You know, there's that great I don't know if it's a meme or a phrase or whatever we want to call it. When they go around Instagram. I don't know how they get redefined, but where people say, you know, you can't claim to be the party of small government and tell people who they can love, where where, and how they can live, how they can dress, what they can read, what they you know, where they can get safe water and where not like the list, you can't say that you know. And then somebody said, well, now you have to add you can't claim to be, you know, the party of limited government and have created twenty five percent of the entire national debt in four years in the country that's existed for two ald and fifty. How do you you know you're talking about the personal realigning, you know, clicking things into place in a healthier way. How as someone who did come up on the conservative end of this pendulums, how have you begun to click things back into authentic reality? And say, is anybody going to pay attention to the difference between what we say and what we do? Because everybody out there, particularly people who listen to my podcast, like they know what I think about this stuff. For you making sense of this.

Stuff, No, that's been the trickiest part because I can scream at the top of my lungs like, none of this is conservatism as I learned it, and the conservatism that I came up on, you wouldn't dislike. You might disagree with some policies, but it's very inclusive.

Stuff, No, that's been the trickiest part because I can scream at the top of my lungs like, none of this is conservatism as I learned it, and the conservatism that I came up on, you wouldn't dislike. You might disagree with some policies, but it's very inclusive.

Okay, before you move on to now, can you tell me how you defined it in the space and place you came up.

Okay, before you move on to now, can you tell me how you defined it in the space and place you came up.

Things you just said, lowering the debt and deficit, limited government, small g government. That's what I was for. The government should not be in the business of telling you how to live your life. That's how I was a supporter of gay rights from a child.

Things you just said, lowering the debt and deficit, limited government, small g government. That's what I was for. The government should not be in the business of telling you how to live your life. That's how I was a supporter of gay rights from a child.

I grew up in ballet.

I grew up in ballet.

But but in my political career, long before a lot of Democrats, in fact, were I've I've always been in favor of gay rights because I believed in limited government. I'm pro life. All that means is I won't go out and get an abortion. I've that's that's my personal choice. I've always supported Roe v. Wade and having that as an option for women. Who am I to tell you what to do or what not to do. I would never I'm not religious, so that it doesn't come from any kind of religious ideology or anything like that.

But but in my political career, long before a lot of Democrats, in fact, were I've I've always been in favor of gay rights because I believed in limited government. I'm pro life. All that means is I won't go out and get an abortion. I've that's that's my personal choice. I've always supported Roe v. Wade and having that as an option for women. Who am I to tell you what to do or what not to do. I would never I'm not religious, so that it doesn't come from any kind of religious ideology or anything like that.

That that feels like an important thing, just to I love a little asterisk in a moment like that. It's it's irony. It's ironic to me that the religious right weaponized abortion as an issue. You know, six years after the passage of jobs, they never cared, but once they lost their last appeal on UH trying to uphold segregation, they decided they needed a new cause. The deepest irony of this, as a kid who grew up in a house with two religions in LA and thought I should probably study more to understand why people fight over this is that the only mention of abortion in the Bible is how to. Yeah, so technically it's a pro abortion text, but you know, we'll leave that for another time.

That that feels like an important thing, just to I love a little asterisk in a moment like that. It's it's irony. It's ironic to me that the religious right weaponized abortion as an issue. You know, six years after the passage of jobs, they never cared, but once they lost their last appeal on UH trying to uphold segregation, they decided they needed a new cause. The deepest irony of this, as a kid who grew up in a house with two religions in LA and thought I should probably study more to understand why people fight over this is that the only mention of abortion in the Bible is how to. Yeah, so technically it's a pro abortion text, but you know, we'll leave that for another time.

Yeah. I know, it's a lot, it's it's all fraught. Yeah.

Yeah. I know, it's a lot, it's it's all fraught. Yeah.

But my version of conservatism coming up was I think you'd look at it even then and say, Okay, this is I understand this, and this person isn't foreign to me, isn't a monster. It was a compassionate conservatism. I believed in social safety nets and reducing poverty and things that now are are so identified by today's Republican Party as woke and weak. You know, to me, it was very normal and not scary, and our difference is policy. We could identify similar problems, but we'd come at it from different policy solutions. Now it's not just that I'm screaming this is not conservative. Do you care anymore that this is not conservative? Because they clearly don't know. It's the thing that you were saying, the intellectual honesty, the consistency, the hypocrisy.

But my version of conservatism coming up was I think you'd look at it even then and say, Okay, this is I understand this, and this person isn't foreign to me, isn't a monster. It was a compassionate conservatism. I believed in social safety nets and reducing poverty and things that now are are so identified by today's Republican Party as woke and weak. You know, to me, it was very normal and not scary, and our difference is policy. We could identify similar problems, but we'd come at it from different policy solutions. Now it's not just that I'm screaming this is not conservative. Do you care anymore that this is not conservative? Because they clearly don't know. It's the thing that you were saying, the intellectual honesty, the consistency, the hypocrisy.

You just said this was.

You just said this was.

Fine, and now it's not fine because it's your guy or their guy. You just said this was awful, but it's okay if our guy does it. I mean, this stuff makes me want to light my hair on fire. It's designed to it's designed to make you just want to say, gad. I'm tuning it all out, like I can't even make sense of it. Unfortunately I can't tune it out. That's my job to make sense of it. But that's been the disorienting part. It's like I'm going like this every day?

Fine, and now it's not fine because it's your guy or their guy. You just said this was awful, but it's okay if our guy does it. I mean, this stuff makes me want to light my hair on fire. It's designed to it's designed to make you just want to say, gad. I'm tuning it all out, like I can't even make sense of it. Unfortunately I can't tune it out. That's my job to make sense of it. But that's been the disorienting part. It's like I'm going like this every day?

Is this thing on? Does anyone listen?

Is this thing on? Does anyone listen?

Does anyone care about forget jettison conservatism? I know y'all don't care about that anymore. Do we care about intellectual honesty, consistency and aiocracy? No? I don't think we do. So I'm on a very lonely island. I'm not the only one. There are lots of folks, you know, occupying the space that I occupy now, but it's a very isolating place to be in, having come from a place where I had, you know, a big team, lots of friends, lots of colleagues, lots of fans. We were all united in a purpose and had a common goal.

Does anyone care about forget jettison conservatism? I know y'all don't care about that anymore. Do we care about intellectual honesty, consistency and aiocracy? No? I don't think we do. So I'm on a very lonely island. I'm not the only one. There are lots of folks, you know, occupying the space that I occupy now, but it's a very isolating place to be in, having come from a place where I had, you know, a big team, lots of friends, lots of colleagues, lots of fans. We were all united in a purpose and had a common goal.

We don't even speak the same language anymore.

We don't even speak the same language anymore.

And now for our sponsors, there used to seem to be a willingness to say, hold on, we're getting a little too hysterical in the ways we're fighting. We need to be factual. And now you know, you've got defenders of the modern day Republicans. I'll call them the Trump Trumpers, I guess, because I understand that's not what the Republican Party has been. But you know, you've got one of his defenders on CNN today claiming that Elon Musk did not throw up not one but two Heyle Hitler's, which we know he did, which you know, the images of which that are being disseminated in Germany as people call, you know, ring the alarm bells. People are being charged with crimes in Germany just for showing the images because they're so violent there for the law. And you know, he said this.

And now for our sponsors, there used to seem to be a willingness to say, hold on, we're getting a little too hysterical in the ways we're fighting. We need to be factual. And now you know, you've got defenders of the modern day Republicans. I'll call them the Trump Trumpers, I guess, because I understand that's not what the Republican Party has been. But you know, you've got one of his defenders on CNN today claiming that Elon Musk did not throw up not one but two Heyle Hitler's, which we know he did, which you know, the images of which that are being disseminated in Germany as people call, you know, ring the alarm bells. People are being charged with crimes in Germany just for showing the images because they're so violent there for the law. And you know, he said this.

Trutherism around it. I saw it and I know you're talking about and I was like.

Trutherism around it. I saw it and I know you're talking about and I was like.

I'm sorry, are we tokenizing the truth like that? Can't be it. You know, you see an RFK go crazy about the polio vaccine. You can't say it doesn't work. You cannot. There's no fact, an alternative fact. And conway there there are concrete facts, right, and we have to we have to assess, as you said, social services based on human health, health outcomes CDC data, success of social service programs. Should they not be working, should they be inefficient? Let's make them more efficient, Let's not light them all on fire.

I'm sorry, are we tokenizing the truth like that? Can't be it. You know, you see an RFK go crazy about the polio vaccine. You can't say it doesn't work. You cannot. There's no fact, an alternative fact. And conway there there are concrete facts, right, and we have to we have to assess, as you said, social services based on human health, health outcomes CDC data, success of social service programs. Should they not be working, should they be inefficient? Let's make them more efficient, Let's not light them all on fire.

But that's that is the desire of a lot of people on the far right now, is destruction.

But that's that is the desire of a lot of people on the far right now, is destruction.

That is a nihilism. Well, I think for some people it's fun.

That is a nihilism. Well, I think for some people it's fun.

But for others there's a contingent that thinks our government is broken.

But for others there's a contingent that thinks our government is broken.

Both sides in establishment parties.

Both sides in establishment parties.

Were ineffective, and there's some truth to the ineffectiveness of our establishment politics. Of course, the answer isn't lighting it all on fire, which I mean, just take today and Trump's immediate dissolution of federal grants, federal grants that are obligated and already awarded that then have to be paid out with no concern for what happens next.

Were ineffective, and there's some truth to the ineffectiveness of our establishment politics. Of course, the answer isn't lighting it all on fire, which I mean, just take today and Trump's immediate dissolution of federal grants, federal grants that are obligated and already awarded that then have to be paid out with no concern for what happens next.

And it was the same thing with Dobbs. There was no overturning. Dobs had no Okay, what comes next?

And it was the same thing with Dobbs. There was no overturning. Dobs had no Okay, what comes next?

How do we then provide for the millions of people who are just going to be left with nowhere to go, nothing to do. There's no thought of that. And for Trump, I think there's fun in the chaos and this idea that like, I'm going to do it the law, figure out the legality later, whether it's legal or not, I don't care.

How do we then provide for the millions of people who are just going to be left with nowhere to go, nothing to do. There's no thought of that. And for Trump, I think there's fun in the chaos and this idea that like, I'm going to do it the law, figure out the legality later, whether it's legal or not, I don't care.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it.

And I'm daring you to challenge me, because we all know what that looks like by now, and it's rough.

And I'm daring you to challenge me, because we all know what that looks like by now, and it's rough.

It's rough.

It's rough.

The that phrase fun in the chaos really strikes me because what it seems to be again as a person who's you know, job, like the way I pay my bills is not working. In politics, I've been a political volunteer for over twenty years. People love to come at me and say, how much money are you making for this? None I spend my own money to do this right, and I've lost quite a few, you know, the pretty sort of endorsement deals that happen in the line of work. I don't get those big ones because I won't stop saying words like abortion.

The that phrase fun in the chaos really strikes me because what it seems to be again as a person who's you know, job, like the way I pay my bills is not working. In politics, I've been a political volunteer for over twenty years. People love to come at me and say, how much money are you making for this? None I spend my own money to do this right, and I've lost quite a few, you know, the pretty sort of endorsement deals that happen in the line of work. I don't get those big ones because I won't stop saying words like abortion.

And exactly on your P and L sheep, this is an L for you.

And exactly on your P and L sheep, this is an L for you.

It's a big L. But it matters to me because that's what I'm going to I'm going to sell us out to I don't know, advertise something for what. And I think what's hard for me is not only that there seems to be glee in the chaos. There seems to be this energy of retribution, this joy in harming people, because not only have you overturned jobs and have you put the lives of women around the country at risk. I have friends who, you know, my friend Amanda Zarofski lost her fallopian tube. She may never be able to be a mom because they wouldn't give her a DNC after a miscarriage because she'd crossed the line. I mean things that are just so appalling. Yeah, the suffering. They know people are suffering and they don't care. And then when we say you seem to enjoy this, they say of course we don't enjoy it. We're standing up for families. And then they propose cutting twelve billion dollars in school lunch assistance. Right that they know is where so many children in our country get their only guaranteed meal on a weekday, kids that go hungry, and they are sitting here saying not all those kids deserve to eat.

It's a big L. But it matters to me because that's what I'm going to I'm going to sell us out to I don't know, advertise something for what. And I think what's hard for me is not only that there seems to be glee in the chaos. There seems to be this energy of retribution, this joy in harming people, because not only have you overturned jobs and have you put the lives of women around the country at risk. I have friends who, you know, my friend Amanda Zarofski lost her fallopian tube. She may never be able to be a mom because they wouldn't give her a DNC after a miscarriage because she'd crossed the line. I mean things that are just so appalling. Yeah, the suffering. They know people are suffering and they don't care. And then when we say you seem to enjoy this, they say of course we don't enjoy it. We're standing up for families. And then they propose cutting twelve billion dollars in school lunch assistance. Right that they know is where so many children in our country get their only guaranteed meal on a weekday, kids that go hungry, and they are sitting here saying not all those kids deserve to eat.

It's worse than that.

It's worse than that.

I saw someone on a congressman on CNN today who was asked, you know, what would you tell kids who get a lot of their nutrition? And I work in child hunger as well. I'm ambassador for no kid hungry, so I work in this space. She said, what would you tell a kid who gets boodh assistance from programs like Snap? And he said, well, when I was a kid, I had a paper route and then I got a job. And she said, we're talking about like five year olds. You're not telling a five year old to get a job. There's this sort of cavalier, blase, go work for it attitude where there's not only no attempt to see the humanside of what's happening, there is total resistance to that. Do not show me the face of suffering people, do not show me the cost. I don't want to know.

I saw someone on a congressman on CNN today who was asked, you know, what would you tell kids who get a lot of their nutrition? And I work in child hunger as well. I'm ambassador for no kid hungry, so I work in this space. She said, what would you tell a kid who gets boodh assistance from programs like Snap? And he said, well, when I was a kid, I had a paper route and then I got a job. And she said, we're talking about like five year olds. You're not telling a five year old to get a job. There's this sort of cavalier, blase, go work for it attitude where there's not only no attempt to see the humanside of what's happening, there is total resistance to that. Do not show me the face of suffering people, do not show me the cost. I don't want to know.

I don't care.

I don't care.

That's how it is feeling as I watch again people I know inside MAGA operate where the cruelty is the point and the punishment is the point. In a lot of cases, it's really hard for me to justify. But like I said, compassion is now weak, social safety nets are now woke. This isn't how I was brought up, either by my parents or in politics. And it's just so nihilistic, yes, that this is how you must act.

That's how it is feeling as I watch again people I know inside MAGA operate where the cruelty is the point and the punishment is the point. In a lot of cases, it's really hard for me to justify. But like I said, compassion is now weak, social safety nets are now woke. This isn't how I was brought up, either by my parents or in politics. And it's just so nihilistic, yes, that this is how you must act.

Now what bothers me too about this idea that our social safety nets are woke? These are supposed to be smart business people, right, Yeah, And look, I'm not a billionaire business person. I am very aware no matter how many times Donald Trump, who was playing with his name on it, calls me and my friends the elite, I'm way closer to being homeless tomorrow than I am ever being a billionaire.

Now what bothers me too about this idea that our social safety nets are woke? These are supposed to be smart business people, right, Yeah, And look, I'm not a billionaire business person. I am very aware no matter how many times Donald Trump, who was playing with his name on it, calls me and my friends the elite, I'm way closer to being homeless tomorrow than I am ever being a billionaire.

Like that's just the stats. Yeah, and.

Like that's just the stats. Yeah, and.

This man is supposed to be a smart business person. Now what I know from my years of you know, making some small little like angel investments in that world, right business investing, You would never invest in a company that you were not expecting to get some version of a return too, And yes, sure, sometimes an investment it doesn't work, sometimes it does. The ideas that it's going to work better than it doesn't, the idea that the American people are supposed to pay taxes into these United States. The whole point of being in the United States is because the United States provides for its people, your roads, the street lights in your city, your drinking water. We pay into infrastructure, and the return on our investment is to be able to live theoretically in a country where you're not gonna get t boned because all the lights are out, and you're not going to get listeria from your drinking water, and you're not going to see people be abused for other rich people's.

This man is supposed to be a smart business person. Now what I know from my years of you know, making some small little like angel investments in that world, right business investing, You would never invest in a company that you were not expecting to get some version of a return too, And yes, sure, sometimes an investment it doesn't work, sometimes it does. The ideas that it's going to work better than it doesn't, the idea that the American people are supposed to pay taxes into these United States. The whole point of being in the United States is because the United States provides for its people, your roads, the street lights in your city, your drinking water. We pay into infrastructure, and the return on our investment is to be able to live theoretically in a country where you're not gonna get t boned because all the lights are out, and you're not going to get listeria from your drinking water, and you're not going to see people be abused for other rich people's.

Enjoyment or their enjoyment.

Enjoyment or their enjoyment.

Yeah, like social safety nets are our return on the investment of our taxes, and they've somehow made it seem like nobody should get a free ride. It's not about a free ride. If your neighbors lost their job and was hungry, you'd invite them over for dinner, hoping they would do it for you. It's just like, it's the whole point of being in a society. You don't want to live in a society. I'm like, Okay, move to antarcticle and live off the grid and see how long you survive.

Yeah, like social safety nets are our return on the investment of our taxes, and they've somehow made it seem like nobody should get a free ride. It's not about a free ride. If your neighbors lost their job and was hungry, you'd invite them over for dinner, hoping they would do it for you. It's just like, it's the whole point of being in a society. You don't want to live in a society. I'm like, Okay, move to antarcticle and live off the grid and see how long you survive.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it used to be we we could have conversations about how to solve these endemic problems. And on the right, I might say, yes, people are hungry, but how are we going to pay for it? And on the left you might say, people are hungry, it doesn't matter, like we just need to feed them. We'd come together over some version of a compromise that would do all the things, it would be paid for. We'd figure that part out. Because you don't think about how it's paid for it you run out of resources and money. Yeah, but you also feed the hungry people because they are in the immediate need. We don't even agree on the problems anymore, let alone the solutions, because me even caring about the problem.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it used to be we we could have conversations about how to solve these endemic problems. And on the right, I might say, yes, people are hungry, but how are we going to pay for it? And on the left you might say, people are hungry, it doesn't matter, like we just need to feed them. We'd come together over some version of a compromise that would do all the things, it would be paid for. We'd figure that part out. Because you don't think about how it's paid for it you run out of resources and money. Yeah, but you also feed the hungry people because they are in the immediate need. We don't even agree on the problems anymore, let alone the solutions, because me even caring about the problem.

Makes me a snow spoken week.

Makes me a snow spoken week.

Yeah right, So it's it's it's an upside down, and it's a crazy world, and a very very scary and sad cynical political world that Maga is creating.

Yeah right, So it's it's it's an upside down, and it's a crazy world, and a very very scary and sad cynical political world that Maga is creating.

It's very cynical, deeply deeply cynical.

It's very cynical, deeply deeply cynical.

So I'm curious because you wrote something, you know, in reference to in twenty twenty voting for President Biden, and you talked about how there's this quote of yours that I love, you said, cloaking it. You know, their extremism as patriotism or conservativism is just a lie. I think there are enough good conservatives to see through that, even in Congress, but there's certainly been a lack of courage to call out people like the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the Mega world. And you spoke about the courage of Liz Change, you know, her standing up for American values, and you talked about how in a silent vote her fellow congress people voted to keep her in leadership, but that your hunch was if the vote was not silent, it wouldn't have gone that way. We got that now. Yeah, now the votes are not silent. They're out loud. You know, you've got JD. Vance talk essentially referring to women as cattle, saying or it's our job to be pregnant, and you know, them blowing up everything, education, cancer research, all of it. I know the chaos is the point because they want us, they want us, and as I feel right now, I want to take a deep breath and cry, and I'm sure people let them listening do to I promise we're gonna We're going to add a little spark of hope here. I know this is their goal to make us tired and to make us go in right, you've seen this playbook, how do you think about conserving your energy and think about how to strategically fight back.

So I'm curious because you wrote something, you know, in reference to in twenty twenty voting for President Biden, and you talked about how there's this quote of yours that I love, you said, cloaking it. You know, their extremism as patriotism or conservativism is just a lie. I think there are enough good conservatives to see through that, even in Congress, but there's certainly been a lack of courage to call out people like the Marjorie Taylor Greens of the Mega world. And you spoke about the courage of Liz Change, you know, her standing up for American values, and you talked about how in a silent vote her fellow congress people voted to keep her in leadership, but that your hunch was if the vote was not silent, it wouldn't have gone that way. We got that now. Yeah, now the votes are not silent. They're out loud. You know, you've got JD. Vance talk essentially referring to women as cattle, saying or it's our job to be pregnant, and you know, them blowing up everything, education, cancer research, all of it. I know the chaos is the point because they want us, they want us, and as I feel right now, I want to take a deep breath and cry, and I'm sure people let them listening do to I promise we're gonna We're going to add a little spark of hope here. I know this is their goal to make us tired and to make us go in right, you've seen this playbook, how do you think about conserving your energy and think about how to strategically fight back.

It's really tough because you can drive yourself crazy, and again that's what they want.

It's really tough because you can drive yourself crazy, and again that's what they want.

They want you to get tired.

They want you to get tired.

They want you to be afraid of speaking and doing what you do.

They want you to be afraid of speaking and doing what you do.

And listen.

And listen.

It's not for everyone, and I don't judge people who say I can't do it anymore. And I know a lot of people both in media and politics who've decided I cannot do this anymore. It is awful for my mental health. I completely understand that. I've had those conversations with myself, like is this worth it? But I have found ways, over years of therapy to continue doing what I deeply love, which is journalism, asking questions, holding powerful people accountable, without letting it take over my life and my mental health. And that's been hard, but I've set boundaries. I mean, I used to turn on CNN. Let me start over. I never turned off CNN. I would fall asleep to it, I would wake up to it. It would be on all day and by osmosis it would you know, I would just get off. That's not necessary, right, I mean, for one, most hours of cable news repeat the same stories.

It's not for everyone, and I don't judge people who say I can't do it anymore. And I know a lot of people both in media and politics who've decided I cannot do this anymore. It is awful for my mental health. I completely understand that. I've had those conversations with myself, like is this worth it? But I have found ways, over years of therapy to continue doing what I deeply love, which is journalism, asking questions, holding powerful people accountable, without letting it take over my life and my mental health. And that's been hard, but I've set boundaries. I mean, I used to turn on CNN. Let me start over. I never turned off CNN. I would fall asleep to it, I would wake up to it. It would be on all day and by osmosis it would you know, I would just get off. That's not necessary, right, I mean, for one, most hours of cable news repeat the same stories.

Two, I can read the news, and.

Two, I can read the news, and.

It's a very different effect than watching it, especially watching two people yell at each other or argue about something. Right, there are other ways to consume news and do my job, and so I really started looking at that, how I consume the news and how I moved.

It's a very different effect than watching it, especially watching two people yell at each other or argue about something. Right, there are other ways to consume news and do my job, and so I really started looking at that, how I consume the news and how I moved.

Through the world that I live in.

Through the world that I live in.

You know, doing philanthropic work is a thing that helps me escape the feeling of hopelessness and pointlessness, Like I am pointless and what I'm doing in my professional life means nothing. Go and do a little philanthropy. I volunteered a shelter almost every other week. You find meaning in very small things that can counterbalance the meaningless feeling you have as a fighter, as an activist, as an advocate, you have to find meaning and value in other things. And I've had to make myself feel less identified by my job as I once did. Maybe you've gone through this too, where you felt so identified not just by your job, but who you worked for and the show you were on and the network I work for. I mean so identified proudly.