Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends, Welcome back to another episode of Work in Progress. Today I am sitting down with someone whose brain I am absolutely obsessed with, and whose TikTok I am also obsessed with. Today we are joined by none other than Aaron Parnas. He is a lawyer, he is an activist, and he also happens to be the son of Lov Parness. Yes, the gentleman who was arrested for his role in the whole Trump Ukraine scandal. My goodness. Aaron grew up in a staunchly Republican family, was a Trump voter in twenty sixteen, and then was inside the first administration and saw things that really will come up to the reality of what most of America is up against with an incoming oligarchy. He has since become an activist in support of the Democratic Party. Sure, but I would really just say in support of Americans, particularly school children. It was the twenty twenty two Russian invasion of Ukraine that led Aaron Parnas to TikTok. He actually works as a securities litigation attorney at a law firm in Washington, d C. But it was his personal connection to Ukraine and family on the ground that really alerted him to the fact that American media wasn't covering the whole story. So Aaron decided to get on the internet and help. Not only is he an impressive leader and the kind of guy who's bringing Walter Cronkite energy back to the world of social media news, but he's also a lawyer. He graduated with honors from law school at the age of twenty one. Yeah, this is a guy who got bumped up to high school at the age of fourteen. And in twenty twenty he published a memoir titled Trump First, How the President and his associates turned their backs on me and my family. Today, we're going to talk about what that was like, seeing from the inside of a scandal, how these enormous systems of politics work, and how it really led him to interrogate himself, his beliefs, and why he believes that truth and trustworthy information should actually be the thing we are all the most loyal to. As of today, he's amassed more than three million followers on TikTok and he is usually the first social media account that I check when I finally let myself into my apps in the morning. Let's hear from Aaron Parness. Hi, Hi, my internet friend. I'm so excited we're here.

Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends, Welcome back to another episode of Work in Progress. Today I am sitting down with someone whose brain I am absolutely obsessed with, and whose TikTok I am also obsessed with. Today we are joined by none other than Aaron Parnas. He is a lawyer, he is an activist, and he also happens to be the son of Lov Parness. Yes, the gentleman who was arrested for his role in the whole Trump Ukraine scandal. My goodness. Aaron grew up in a staunchly Republican family, was a Trump voter in twenty sixteen, and then was inside the first administration and saw things that really will come up to the reality of what most of America is up against with an incoming oligarchy. He has since become an activist in support of the Democratic Party. Sure, but I would really just say in support of Americans, particularly school children. It was the twenty twenty two Russian invasion of Ukraine that led Aaron Parnas to TikTok. He actually works as a securities litigation attorney at a law firm in Washington, d C. But it was his personal connection to Ukraine and family on the ground that really alerted him to the fact that American media wasn't covering the whole story. So Aaron decided to get on the internet and help. Not only is he an impressive leader and the kind of guy who's bringing Walter Cronkite energy back to the world of social media news, but he's also a lawyer. He graduated with honors from law school at the age of twenty one. Yeah, this is a guy who got bumped up to high school at the age of fourteen. And in twenty twenty he published a memoir titled Trump First, How the President and his associates turned their backs on me and my family. Today, we're going to talk about what that was like, seeing from the inside of a scandal, how these enormous systems of politics work, and how it really led him to interrogate himself, his beliefs, and why he believes that truth and trustworthy information should actually be the thing we are all the most loyal to. As of today, he's amassed more than three million followers on TikTok and he is usually the first social media account that I check when I finally let myself into my apps in the morning. Let's hear from Aaron Parness. Hi, Hi, my internet friend. I'm so excited we're here.

I'm so excited. Also, I didn't, like, I completely did not realize I met you at the DNC when you're with Governor Moore.

I'm so excited. Also, I didn't, like, I completely did not realize I met you at the DNC when you're with Governor Moore.

Yes, yes, I mean it was so brief, but like so brief.

Yes, yes, I mean it was so brief, but like so brief.

Yes, it is going to be so fun. I'm really excited.

Yes, it is going to be so fun. I'm really excited.

Yeah, I'm so amped. I like, I'm I'm sort of at a loss for words because Aaron, where do we even start?

Yeah, I'm so amped. I like, I'm I'm sort of at a loss for words because Aaron, where do we even start?

Where? I don't I don't know. I mean, I couldn't tell you. It's a show like truthfully, like bigger than I could have ever imagined.

Where? I don't I don't know. I mean, I couldn't tell you. It's a show like truthfully, like bigger than I could have ever imagined.

The weird thing is in these really bizarre ways. I'm not surprised by anything. They gave us a roadmap, they told us what they were going to do. Yes, it was evil. Yes, it read like, you know, some sort of insane spy movie that if you turned it in at a Hollywood studio they'd be like, tone it down, you're being ridiculous. But I'm I'm so I'm in shock every day that it's really this depraved and terrible.

The weird thing is in these really bizarre ways. I'm not surprised by anything. They gave us a roadmap, they told us what they were going to do. Yes, it was evil. Yes, it read like, you know, some sort of insane spy movie that if you turned it in at a Hollywood studio they'd be like, tone it down, you're being ridiculous. But I'm I'm so I'm in shock every day that it's really this depraved and terrible.

I get it. I mean I think that like it's interesting, right, Like he did have the Project twenty twenty five roadmap. We knew what they were. And then everyone was like, well, he's saying he has nothing to do with Project twenty twenty five. Okay, great, look where we are at now. I mean, I don't know if you saw a political had an interview with the former Project twenty twenty five architect, he was asked, what do you think about this? And he goes, well, it's beyond my wildest dreams, like it's even betaw that, and I mean, I think it's and I think this goes to something that I've been talking a lot about with like my friends and stuff, is that the reason why Democrats don't have their act together right now is because they're trying to compete against As though Trump is running for reelection, he's not completely different beasts right now, right like, he has completely unchecked power in a way, he has a Republican House or Republican Senate, and he doesn't care what the voters think because he's not running for reelection, he has the next three and a half years.

I get it. I mean I think that like it's interesting, right, Like he did have the Project twenty twenty five roadmap. We knew what they were. And then everyone was like, well, he's saying he has nothing to do with Project twenty twenty five. Okay, great, look where we are at now. I mean, I don't know if you saw a political had an interview with the former Project twenty twenty five architect, he was asked, what do you think about this? And he goes, well, it's beyond my wildest dreams, like it's even betaw that, and I mean, I think it's and I think this goes to something that I've been talking a lot about with like my friends and stuff, is that the reason why Democrats don't have their act together right now is because they're trying to compete against As though Trump is running for reelection, he's not completely different beasts right now, right like, he has completely unchecked power in a way, he has a Republican House or Republican Senate, and he doesn't care what the voters think because he's not running for reelection, he has the next three and a half years.

Not only does he not care what the voters think, he doesn't care what the courts. Thing we have someone who is occupying the highest office in the land, who is often in the world called the leader of the free world. You know, make up that what you will, but that's the age old tagline for the American president. This person doesn't care about anything but money and power. And so I'm trying to like make sense. Had I posted something about them gutting the EPA, and I just said, tell me why this makes sense. I don't care if you are a died in the wold liberal, if you are a hyper religious conservative. Dirty air and poisoned water and sewage in your drinking water and poisoned earth that you can't grow food in is bad for everybody. So like, what are we doing here?

Not only does he not care what the voters think, he doesn't care what the courts. Thing we have someone who is occupying the highest office in the land, who is often in the world called the leader of the free world. You know, make up that what you will, but that's the age old tagline for the American president. This person doesn't care about anything but money and power. And so I'm trying to like make sense. Had I posted something about them gutting the EPA, and I just said, tell me why this makes sense. I don't care if you are a died in the wold liberal, if you are a hyper religious conservative. Dirty air and poisoned water and sewage in your drinking water and poisoned earth that you can't grow food in is bad for everybody. So like, what are we doing here?

To anyone's guess, I mean, I really think we're in a position right now where he as president, really only knows about ten percent of what's happening in his own government. And I think he's really I mean every president really has, in my opinion, kind of limited oversight of what actually is happening day to day and all these agencies. But I think he's gotten to a point where he's kind of he has his little pet projects that he really cares about, like provoking Hunter Biden secret Service protection, but everything kind of give him carp blanche authority to those overseeing these agencies, many of whom have their own pet projects and their own kind of goals, whether it's remote business interests for big oil for example in the epaight example, or really anything else. So I don't think he really cares, is the thing. He doesn't really care to go and say, you know what, this is bad. It's more of like, you know what, if you think that's good, if you want to do it, go ahead and do it. I don't really care. That's kind of where I think we're at.

To anyone's guess, I mean, I really think we're in a position right now where he as president, really only knows about ten percent of what's happening in his own government. And I think he's really I mean every president really has, in my opinion, kind of limited oversight of what actually is happening day to day and all these agencies. But I think he's gotten to a point where he's kind of he has his little pet projects that he really cares about, like provoking Hunter Biden secret Service protection, but everything kind of give him carp blanche authority to those overseeing these agencies, many of whom have their own pet projects and their own kind of goals, whether it's remote business interests for big oil for example in the epaight example, or really anything else. So I don't think he really cares, is the thing. He doesn't really care to go and say, you know what, this is bad. It's more of like, you know what, if you think that's good, if you want to do it, go ahead and do it. I don't really care. That's kind of where I think we're at.

Wow, Okay, so we have to pause, We have to rewind to catch back up to where we are today. Because you have, I've really become such a trusted voice out talking about the news. You are meeting the viewers where they're at, which is largely on social media. Rather than complaining that you know, no one's watching the five o'clock news anymore, you're taking the news to the people, which I think is incredibly important. I know, you and me and everyone else paying attention saw the actual scale infographic of how dwarfed by right wing influencers. Any truth teller or messager on the left is so we got to go, we got to go to the battlefield. How did you get this way? Like, talk to me about your childhood. You have always been brilliant. You started college when you were only fourteen, you were in law school by eighteen. Like the accelerated track is wild. And not only were you clearly a brilliant kid, but you grew up in a very political landscape. So can you give the listeners who I very affectionately call my whipsmarties, So they're exactly your kind of people. They like to know things. Give them a little bit of like the background t on how you got like this?

Wow, Okay, so we have to pause, We have to rewind to catch back up to where we are today. Because you have, I've really become such a trusted voice out talking about the news. You are meeting the viewers where they're at, which is largely on social media. Rather than complaining that you know, no one's watching the five o'clock news anymore, you're taking the news to the people, which I think is incredibly important. I know, you and me and everyone else paying attention saw the actual scale infographic of how dwarfed by right wing influencers. Any truth teller or messager on the left is so we got to go, we got to go to the battlefield. How did you get this way? Like, talk to me about your childhood. You have always been brilliant. You started college when you were only fourteen, you were in law school by eighteen. Like the accelerated track is wild. And not only were you clearly a brilliant kid, but you grew up in a very political landscape. So can you give the listeners who I very affectionately call my whipsmarties, So they're exactly your kind of people. They like to know things. Give them a little bit of like the background t on how you got like this?

Yeah, truth be told. I never wanted to be an influencer or even do journalism. I always had a dream of going to law school, working as a public defender and kind of just doing that for the rest of my life. Really, law school changed that. And talk about what happened twenty twenty two, but that also changed. But growing up, I grew up in a political household to the extent that I had family that was close to Donald Trump and had deep ties to the first Trump administration, deep ties to those around they're now president, the former president and really grew up in kinda maga world. I claimed to be a Republican myself, even though I really didn't know what that meant at the time, and I was just I really saw a maga for what it was from inside, being so close to it. And I did that for several years while also in college slash high school between before starting law school and then really when I started law schoo when I was eighteen and really exposed me to a lot. But I really didn't start being on social media until twenty twenty two when Russia did Ukraine. By then, I had already decided I was no longer a publican. I'm actually a democrat. I realized what that was. But in twenty twenty two, when Russia invaded Ukraine, I had family in Ukraine, and I would be hearing from my uncle and folks there about what was happening on the ground in front of their house, bombs, overhead, tanks, outside, crazy situation. Thankfully, everyone's okay. But I would hear from them, and then I would see what's happening on mainstream media here and it'd be completely different worlds. And so I just opened up a TikTok account and just started making videos and kind of the rest is history. So it's been a wild, wild journey.

Yeah, truth be told. I never wanted to be an influencer or even do journalism. I always had a dream of going to law school, working as a public defender and kind of just doing that for the rest of my life. Really, law school changed that. And talk about what happened twenty twenty two, but that also changed. But growing up, I grew up in a political household to the extent that I had family that was close to Donald Trump and had deep ties to the first Trump administration, deep ties to those around they're now president, the former president and really grew up in kinda maga world. I claimed to be a Republican myself, even though I really didn't know what that meant at the time, and I was just I really saw a maga for what it was from inside, being so close to it. And I did that for several years while also in college slash high school between before starting law school and then really when I started law schoo when I was eighteen and really exposed me to a lot. But I really didn't start being on social media until twenty twenty two when Russia did Ukraine. By then, I had already decided I was no longer a publican. I'm actually a democrat. I realized what that was. But in twenty twenty two, when Russia invaded Ukraine, I had family in Ukraine, and I would be hearing from my uncle and folks there about what was happening on the ground in front of their house, bombs, overhead, tanks, outside, crazy situation. Thankfully, everyone's okay. But I would hear from them, and then I would see what's happening on mainstream media here and it'd be completely different worlds. And so I just opened up a TikTok account and just started making videos and kind of the rest is history. So it's been a wild, wild journey.

Yeah, it's really interesting that you say the thing about what you knew to be true from reporting on the ground and what was being repped resented on the media, because back in the day, you know, I'm not old enough to be your mother, but I'm in that like half generation above you. So imagine a time before TikTok, before even Instagram, you know, Twitter had launched. When it first did, I was like, who cares about pictures of anyone's breakfast? The irony being that now I follow one million food bloggers because I care turns out. But I was sort of like, the landscape is weird, and as an entertainer, you know, the tabloid culture then was crazy. I was like, I don't want to participate anymore in this cesspool that I have to. And then Deepwater Horizon happened, and I knew that they weren't telling the truth about this massive oil spill off the coast of Louisiana. I had friends down there because I'd been making a film there a few summers before. Fishermen I knew were sending me videos and We're like, the news is lying. So that's why I got on Twitter and I flew down there, and then the Sheriff's threatened to arrest me and a bunch of lawyers we brought from Global Green. It was a whole situation, and I was reporting the news on Twitter because the news wasn't reporting the news. And when you talk about Ukraine, I feel like there were moments when I went looking where I saw what was happening on the ground there where I saw Russian forces tying men up and executing them outside of their homes. We knew they were kidnapping children, we knew that hospitals were being bombed. I mean, it was horror, horror after horror, but it wasn't It wasn't in the sort of Walter Cronkite news package you would have expected from the American news. And now protests are happening in cities around America and cities around the world about what's happening in America, and they're not being covered on the news at all. So how do you make sense of that? Because you've said, you know, you mentioned earlier your family was very in the mix in Maga World for our listeners, Love part Us was tight heavily involved with Rudy Giuliani, Trump's first admin. You've talked about having seen inside version one of this administration, having been in the room for these conversations with top Republican allies. So I'm curious because of what you've seen, why you think they don't want us to see so much, Whether it's about Ukraine, whether it's about the protests, like what's going on here.

Yeah, it's really interesting that you say the thing about what you knew to be true from reporting on the ground and what was being repped resented on the media, because back in the day, you know, I'm not old enough to be your mother, but I'm in that like half generation above you. So imagine a time before TikTok, before even Instagram, you know, Twitter had launched. When it first did, I was like, who cares about pictures of anyone's breakfast? The irony being that now I follow one million food bloggers because I care turns out. But I was sort of like, the landscape is weird, and as an entertainer, you know, the tabloid culture then was crazy. I was like, I don't want to participate anymore in this cesspool that I have to. And then Deepwater Horizon happened, and I knew that they weren't telling the truth about this massive oil spill off the coast of Louisiana. I had friends down there because I'd been making a film there a few summers before. Fishermen I knew were sending me videos and We're like, the news is lying. So that's why I got on Twitter and I flew down there, and then the Sheriff's threatened to arrest me and a bunch of lawyers we brought from Global Green. It was a whole situation, and I was reporting the news on Twitter because the news wasn't reporting the news. And when you talk about Ukraine, I feel like there were moments when I went looking where I saw what was happening on the ground there where I saw Russian forces tying men up and executing them outside of their homes. We knew they were kidnapping children, we knew that hospitals were being bombed. I mean, it was horror, horror after horror, but it wasn't It wasn't in the sort of Walter Cronkite news package you would have expected from the American news. And now protests are happening in cities around America and cities around the world about what's happening in America, and they're not being covered on the news at all. So how do you make sense of that? Because you've said, you know, you mentioned earlier your family was very in the mix in Maga World for our listeners, Love part Us was tight heavily involved with Rudy Giuliani, Trump's first admin. You've talked about having seen inside version one of this administration, having been in the room for these conversations with top Republican allies. So I'm curious because of what you've seen, why you think they don't want us to see so much, Whether it's about Ukraine, whether it's about the protests, like what's going on here.

I think it's two things. I think number one, it's fear and number two it's money. Right. I think the mainstream media and just media generally is fearful of what Trump can do to if they report something that's in his eyes not correct. I mean we see it with the ABC News settlements, right, we see it with It's the sixty minutes Kamala Harrison or you lost suit. I mean, he's going after the media now more than ever before, and he has the people in his administration to do that. So I think that's number one. I think fearful of really getting attacked by the Trump administration. And that's also why you see it's funny no one else is standing up with the Associated Press right now after the Associated Press was kicked out of the OBOL all these other sane they're just fine with it apparently. So that's number one. And then number two, I think it's money. I think ultimately mainstream media is their company is just like anyone else, any other company, ultimately about their bottom line. They care about how much money they're making from ad sales, from watch time and all that. So I think that they're beholden to those that are paying their bills, and I think those that are their bills often don't want the same narrative that every day people want to see, in my opinion, and I think that to your point, the protests aren't being covered and all that, it's one hundred percent true. And part of that goes to why there's been such a rise in independent media right now and why social media has really empowered kind of the next generation of media, because mainstream media companies are slowly realizing that they have to cover these events. If they don't, they're just going to be left behind. And I do see some subtle shifts in their coverage, but it's still not there yet. I mean, we still have an hour every night on CNN with Scott Jennings arguing in a round Table with Abby Phillips. I feel so bad for her because she's such a great journalist.

I think it's two things. I think number one, it's fear and number two it's money. Right. I think the mainstream media and just media generally is fearful of what Trump can do to if they report something that's in his eyes not correct. I mean we see it with the ABC News settlements, right, we see it with It's the sixty minutes Kamala Harrison or you lost suit. I mean, he's going after the media now more than ever before, and he has the people in his administration to do that. So I think that's number one. I think fearful of really getting attacked by the Trump administration. And that's also why you see it's funny no one else is standing up with the Associated Press right now after the Associated Press was kicked out of the OBOL all these other sane they're just fine with it apparently. So that's number one. And then number two, I think it's money. I think ultimately mainstream media is their company is just like anyone else, any other company, ultimately about their bottom line. They care about how much money they're making from ad sales, from watch time and all that. So I think that they're beholden to those that are paying their bills, and I think those that are their bills often don't want the same narrative that every day people want to see, in my opinion, and I think that to your point, the protests aren't being covered and all that, it's one hundred percent true. And part of that goes to why there's been such a rise in independent media right now and why social media has really empowered kind of the next generation of media, because mainstream media companies are slowly realizing that they have to cover these events. If they don't, they're just going to be left behind. And I do see some subtle shifts in their coverage, but it's still not there yet. I mean, we still have an hour every night on CNN with Scott Jennings arguing in a round Table with Abby Phillips. I feel so bad for her because she's such a great journalist.

Because she's incredible great.

Because she's incredible great.

They put her on this panel with Scott Jennings and it's no longer news, it's not Walter Cronkite. It's an hour of opinion, and Americans are frustrated.

They put her on this panel with Scott Jennings and it's no longer news, it's not Walter Cronkite. It's an hour of opinion, and Americans are frustrated.

So absolutely, and now for our sponsors, I do hear you on why they're afraid, But I also find it to be ridiculous. I mean even the fact that ABC News caved and the judge had to say, what's going on here? He was convicted, He was found guilty of raping this woman. What do you mean you can't talk about that on the news. It's like splitting hairs here in this way. That is so crazy, And yet they want to him in haw ensue and claim, oh, he could never And then here's Trump importing the Tape Brothers, violent violent rape culture guys, having Connor McGregor accused multiple times, and if I'm remembering correctly, someone on the internet can fact check me in real time. Convicted of having raped and assaulted multiple women, The Spiritual Advisor is on trial for raping a twelve year old girl. Trump's spiritual advisor for my friends at home. I'm air quoting so I don't throw up on myself, Like I'm just I don't understand how they will fold when the truth is called a lie and then not talk about any of the rest of the truth. And I'm curious your perspective on that, because that seems like the sort of central core of trump Ism, right, is to say everything you don't like is a lie, and then two in the same breath, say you love free speech, but then sue everyone who uses their free speech in a way you don't like. When you've talked about these conversations that you were privy to for years, did you kind of see inside the hive mind of this, Like what did you see that made you go, oh, the emperor really has no clothes? What revealed it to you?

So absolutely, and now for our sponsors, I do hear you on why they're afraid, But I also find it to be ridiculous. I mean even the fact that ABC News caved and the judge had to say, what's going on here? He was convicted, He was found guilty of raping this woman. What do you mean you can't talk about that on the news. It's like splitting hairs here in this way. That is so crazy, And yet they want to him in haw ensue and claim, oh, he could never And then here's Trump importing the Tape Brothers, violent violent rape culture guys, having Connor McGregor accused multiple times, and if I'm remembering correctly, someone on the internet can fact check me in real time. Convicted of having raped and assaulted multiple women, The Spiritual Advisor is on trial for raping a twelve year old girl. Trump's spiritual advisor for my friends at home. I'm air quoting so I don't throw up on myself, Like I'm just I don't understand how they will fold when the truth is called a lie and then not talk about any of the rest of the truth. And I'm curious your perspective on that, because that seems like the sort of central core of trump Ism, right, is to say everything you don't like is a lie, and then two in the same breath, say you love free speech, but then sue everyone who uses their free speech in a way you don't like. When you've talked about these conversations that you were privy to for years, did you kind of see inside the hive mind of this, Like what did you see that made you go, oh, the emperor really has no clothes? What revealed it to you?

Yeah? I mean, I think just constantly how they spoke about folks behind the scenes, like average everyday people and especially young people. There was a constant, like subtle undertone of like, they're not smart enough to really grasp what we're serving, right, like what we're kind of telling the public, and especially what we're trying to push towards young people. They're not smart enough to really realize what we're going to do, right, Like they're going to support us, and then we're going to be able to do whatever we want when we get into office. And that's kind of what I saw over those years. And it's actually why I'm not really surprised that young people and especially young men voted for him a lot more now than they did that even back in twenty sixteen, because what he was selling appeal to them, even if it wasn't what they're actually going to get over the next four years. I will say that. So, I think something that people don't really realize is that the weight of the Justice Department and the federal government on your shoulders, whether you are an individual being prosecuted or a company being sued by the Trump administration, is so great, I mean, so puditarily just anxiety inducing. I mean it is. And I represented a lot of folks in criminal matters when I was practicing as a lawyer, and there's nothing scarier than having the Department of Justice go after you, because it will cost you millions in legal fees, it will cost months, if not years, of headache, It'll cost you so much damage to your reputation, and the same thing applies to any one of these media companies. ABC News is a very large company. But if fearful that the Trump Justice Department or the Trump FCC can go after them, then to them, it's it's much easier to pay them off fifteen million dollars then me in a year's worth of litigation right now.

Yeah? I mean, I think just constantly how they spoke about folks behind the scenes, like average everyday people and especially young people. There was a constant, like subtle undertone of like, they're not smart enough to really grasp what we're serving, right, like what we're kind of telling the public, and especially what we're trying to push towards young people. They're not smart enough to really realize what we're going to do, right, Like they're going to support us, and then we're going to be able to do whatever we want when we get into office. And that's kind of what I saw over those years. And it's actually why I'm not really surprised that young people and especially young men voted for him a lot more now than they did that even back in twenty sixteen, because what he was selling appeal to them, even if it wasn't what they're actually going to get over the next four years. I will say that. So, I think something that people don't really realize is that the weight of the Justice Department and the federal government on your shoulders, whether you are an individual being prosecuted or a company being sued by the Trump administration, is so great, I mean, so puditarily just anxiety inducing. I mean it is. And I represented a lot of folks in criminal matters when I was practicing as a lawyer, and there's nothing scarier than having the Department of Justice go after you, because it will cost you millions in legal fees, it will cost months, if not years, of headache, It'll cost you so much damage to your reputation, and the same thing applies to any one of these media companies. ABC News is a very large company. But if fearful that the Trump Justice Department or the Trump FCC can go after them, then to them, it's it's much easier to pay them off fifteen million dollars then me in a year's worth of litigation right now.

Right, But isn't that Isn't that dictatorship weaponizing a Justice Department, weaponizing federal departments like the FBI to go after people you don't like, rather than to go after people who've committed crimes.

Right, But isn't that Isn't that dictatorship weaponizing a Justice Department, weaponizing federal departments like the FBI to go after people you don't like, rather than to go after people who've committed crimes.

It is, and I thankfully, I mean, they haven't prosecuted anyone yet, right, I mean it's only been two months. They haven't. They haven't used the Justice Department to specifically prosecute any of his quote unquote enemies just yet. But we're seeing him lay the groundwork with him trying to at least publicly say he's reversing Joe Biden's pardons, which is insanity. We see the FBI purging and demoting a number of top officials who worked on January sixth related cases, and interestingly enough, in DC where I live, the US Attorney or the acting US Attorney Ed Martin has really claimed he's Donald Trump's personal attorney, has claimed that he's going to be going after people who go after Elon Musk, And so they're laying the groundwork to eventually do something. I'm just glad they haven't done it yet, and I hope they don't do it. Book you never know.

It is, and I thankfully, I mean, they haven't prosecuted anyone yet, right, I mean it's only been two months. They haven't. They haven't used the Justice Department to specifically prosecute any of his quote unquote enemies just yet. But we're seeing him lay the groundwork with him trying to at least publicly say he's reversing Joe Biden's pardons, which is insanity. We see the FBI purging and demoting a number of top officials who worked on January sixth related cases, and interestingly enough, in DC where I live, the US Attorney or the acting US Attorney Ed Martin has really claimed he's Donald Trump's personal attorney, has claimed that he's going to be going after people who go after Elon Musk, And so they're laying the groundwork to eventually do something. I'm just glad they haven't done it yet, and I hope they don't do it. Book you never know.

But here's what frightens me. It reminds me of the adage. First they came for right. We all know the poem, and we're seeing it now. They are disappearing people and then claiming with no due process, no investigation, no evidence, no proof in a court of law that any of what they're saying is true. These men that they essentially kidnapped and sent to this violent prison. And I'll salva door the doctor who, uh you know, the kidney transplant doctor who they deported. They said that they found photographs sympathetic to Hesbolah on her phone. What does that mean? Who investigated that she's a doctor? Did she did she download photos of a war zone? Did she like? What? Tell me, tell me why and tell me the truth, because I don't think anybody would want any version of a violent criminal here. But what happens when we find out that a number of those men that were sent by the Trump administration to Venezuela were just dads. Yeah, what happens if they're American citizens? If they can come for if they can come for fill in the blank, if they can overturn your green card status, if they if they can revoke your citizenship as they're threatening to, they can do it to anyone, anyone. And that's what's terrifying to me. So even what you're saying, you know, they're laying the groundwork to weaponize the DOJ. They haven't done it yet, it sure seems like they're going to. And when a court orders them to stop these deportations that don't have any what's the word, I'm looking for, any any grounding in the rule of law, and they say no, what do we do, Like, if there's no checks and balances, who's going to check this guy?

But here's what frightens me. It reminds me of the adage. First they came for right. We all know the poem, and we're seeing it now. They are disappearing people and then claiming with no due process, no investigation, no evidence, no proof in a court of law that any of what they're saying is true. These men that they essentially kidnapped and sent to this violent prison. And I'll salva door the doctor who, uh you know, the kidney transplant doctor who they deported. They said that they found photographs sympathetic to Hesbolah on her phone. What does that mean? Who investigated that she's a doctor? Did she did she download photos of a war zone? Did she like? What? Tell me, tell me why and tell me the truth, because I don't think anybody would want any version of a violent criminal here. But what happens when we find out that a number of those men that were sent by the Trump administration to Venezuela were just dads. Yeah, what happens if they're American citizens? If they can come for if they can come for fill in the blank, if they can overturn your green card status, if they if they can revoke your citizenship as they're threatening to, they can do it to anyone, anyone. And that's what's terrifying to me. So even what you're saying, you know, they're laying the groundwork to weaponize the DOJ. They haven't done it yet, it sure seems like they're going to. And when a court orders them to stop these deportations that don't have any what's the word, I'm looking for, any any grounding in the rule of law, and they say no, what do we do, Like, if there's no checks and balances, who's going to check this guy?

Well, I mean, I don't know. And the truth be told, I've asked members of Congress, I've asked House member senators like, no one knows, No one has an answer to it. And I think I think you made an important point that a lot of people, especially on the writer, are missing and not that Democrats and just Americans generally are okay with, for example, trend dere Aragua members walking around on the streets. No one wants, no violent crime, and they're undocumented. Remove them. Everyone's saying that. But under the United States Constitution and under Supreme Court, President everyone, no matter whether you're documented or undocumented, you have due process rights. Right, you have the ability to face your accuser. And right now he is suspending that, and that is dangerous. In the situation of the kidney transplant doctor, I don't really care about what she found, what they found on her phone as much as I care about the fact that there was a judicial order in place. That's exactly, don't let her leave the country. And they let her leave the country anyway, they deport you, exactly. That's the problem. They're not going through the proper channels. And today Justice Roberts rebuked Trump for calling for the epachment of Judge Bosberg, which I thought was yes, you never hear that ever.

Well, I mean, I don't know. And the truth be told, I've asked members of Congress, I've asked House member senators like, no one knows, No one has an answer to it. And I think I think you made an important point that a lot of people, especially on the writer, are missing and not that Democrats and just Americans generally are okay with, for example, trend dere Aragua members walking around on the streets. No one wants, no violent crime, and they're undocumented. Remove them. Everyone's saying that. But under the United States Constitution and under Supreme Court, President everyone, no matter whether you're documented or undocumented, you have due process rights. Right, you have the ability to face your accuser. And right now he is suspending that, and that is dangerous. In the situation of the kidney transplant doctor, I don't really care about what she found, what they found on her phone as much as I care about the fact that there was a judicial order in place. That's exactly, don't let her leave the country. And they let her leave the country anyway, they deport you, exactly. That's the problem. They're not going through the proper channels. And today Justice Roberts rebuked Trump for calling for the epachment of Judge Bosberg, which I thought was yes, you never hear that ever.

Okay, Okay, can you walk folks through that because you are you are a politically brilliant human. I am a bit of a political junkie. Not everyone spends as much time as I do, or as you do reading the news and studying this stuff. Tell the folks at home what that means for Chief Justice John Roberts to do what he did today. Can you walk us through what a big deal that is and kind of paint the picture.

Okay, Okay, can you walk folks through that because you are you are a politically brilliant human. I am a bit of a political junkie. Not everyone spends as much time as I do, or as you do reading the news and studying this stuff. Tell the folks at home what that means for Chief Justice John Roberts to do what he did today. Can you walk us through what a big deal that is and kind of paint the picture.

Yeah, I mean to put it into perspective. The Supreme Court does not issue political statements, does not issue statements about a sitting president, no matter who the president is. It is so rare for it to happen, and in the past ten years it's only happened twice. It happened once in twenty eighteen and once today. And the reason why and they're so careful about what they do that they don't even clap during the State of the Union. When Donald Trump or any president says the state of our Union is strongly, very basic statements, they won't clap. They'll just sit there. Many of them won't even attend because they want to look as a political as possible. And well, this morning, Donald Trump called for Judge Bosberg, who's overseeing this trend dear Aragua Venezuelan and deportation issue, to be impeached because he essentially did not agree with his ruling and hours later, Justice Roberts issued a statement saying that essentially, calling and I'm paraphrasing here, but calling for the impeachment of a federal judge is just because you disagree with their ruling is wrong. And it's interesting. Roberts didn't say Trump's name in the statement, but he essentially alluded to Trump's comments. Stunning because, like I said, it's really only the second time in ten years. In the last time was Roberts rebuking Trump in twenty eighteen for labeling a judge an Obama judge, and he said Roberts specifically said they're an Obama or Trump or Clinton judges, they are just judges. And someone was like, wow, that's a big deal then, But here it's even a bigger deal because this is a case that Chief Justice Roberts will oversee and you will get in front of the Supreme Court guaranteed whether or not Trump can use the Alien Enemies Act. So given the fact that he's now making a public statement, he is risking the possibility of having himself essentially recused from the case by making this public statement seemingly rebuking Trump. So it is stunning. I'm personally shocked, teammated, never have imagined you would have made something like this.

Yeah, I mean to put it into perspective. The Supreme Court does not issue political statements, does not issue statements about a sitting president, no matter who the president is. It is so rare for it to happen, and in the past ten years it's only happened twice. It happened once in twenty eighteen and once today. And the reason why and they're so careful about what they do that they don't even clap during the State of the Union. When Donald Trump or any president says the state of our Union is strongly, very basic statements, they won't clap. They'll just sit there. Many of them won't even attend because they want to look as a political as possible. And well, this morning, Donald Trump called for Judge Bosberg, who's overseeing this trend dear Aragua Venezuelan and deportation issue, to be impeached because he essentially did not agree with his ruling and hours later, Justice Roberts issued a statement saying that essentially, calling and I'm paraphrasing here, but calling for the impeachment of a federal judge is just because you disagree with their ruling is wrong. And it's interesting. Roberts didn't say Trump's name in the statement, but he essentially alluded to Trump's comments. Stunning because, like I said, it's really only the second time in ten years. In the last time was Roberts rebuking Trump in twenty eighteen for labeling a judge an Obama judge, and he said Roberts specifically said they're an Obama or Trump or Clinton judges, they are just judges. And someone was like, wow, that's a big deal then, But here it's even a bigger deal because this is a case that Chief Justice Roberts will oversee and you will get in front of the Supreme Court guaranteed whether or not Trump can use the Alien Enemies Act. So given the fact that he's now making a public statement, he is risking the possibility of having himself essentially recused from the case by making this public statement seemingly rebuking Trump. So it is stunning. I'm personally shocked, teammated, never have imagined you would have made something like this.

Yeah, it's when your entire job is to be politically neutral so you can be legally specific. To feel you have to take a stand is not only radical in a way, but it also could endanger your career. So it's a very big deal. I think this is really interesting, and it speaks to something larger, which is that I'm getting the sense, whether it's these supposed criminals they're rounding up or the supposed inefficiency in the government, it seems like they told a really big story about a really big problem and a really big budget imbalance, and it seems like they've looked under the hood of America and gone, oh, the problems are all a lot smaller than we thought. Most people who come here are pretty nice and work hard, And the federal government, while very large, is actually not very inefficient at all. It just costs a lot of money to run a country for three hundred and thirty two million people, and to fund the things those people need, like medicate, like libraries, like I don't know, the Department of Transportation. It's not none of this happens for free, Like we don't have water coming out of the faucet or street lights that work for free, and a lot of it requires global participation. You know, you see these sort of threats of tariffs and all of this destabilization because it seems like the fifth you know, fifth grade bully wants to win in the sandbox. How do you make sense of how we can begin to talk about what the reality is in a country this big versus these big scary lies that Donald Trump and clearly you know Elon the Kenemie cowboy who's weirdly in charge now of all our personal data. How do we begin to walk people back from the fear that they stoked that just isn't being proven true.

Yeah, it's when your entire job is to be politically neutral so you can be legally specific. To feel you have to take a stand is not only radical in a way, but it also could endanger your career. So it's a very big deal. I think this is really interesting, and it speaks to something larger, which is that I'm getting the sense, whether it's these supposed criminals they're rounding up or the supposed inefficiency in the government, it seems like they told a really big story about a really big problem and a really big budget imbalance, and it seems like they've looked under the hood of America and gone, oh, the problems are all a lot smaller than we thought. Most people who come here are pretty nice and work hard, And the federal government, while very large, is actually not very inefficient at all. It just costs a lot of money to run a country for three hundred and thirty two million people, and to fund the things those people need, like medicate, like libraries, like I don't know, the Department of Transportation. It's not none of this happens for free, Like we don't have water coming out of the faucet or street lights that work for free, and a lot of it requires global participation. You know, you see these sort of threats of tariffs and all of this destabilization because it seems like the fifth you know, fifth grade bully wants to win in the sandbox. How do you make sense of how we can begin to talk about what the reality is in a country this big versus these big scary lies that Donald Trump and clearly you know Elon the Kenemie cowboy who's weirdly in charge now of all our personal data. How do we begin to walk people back from the fear that they stoked that just isn't being proven true.

Well, I think the big answer to that is they actually haven't done a lot. Like when you look behind the hood of what they've actually accomplished in two months, it's not a lot of stuff. There's a lot of executive orders that say a lot of things, but don't actually do a lot of things. A lot of It's like, we have to study this over at the course of ninety days. I direct you to do this over the course of sixty days. Not a lot is actually getting done. And what is getting done is getting reversed. For example, just thirty minutes ago before I got on this show, a federal judge in Maryland ordered essentially said that the Trump administration has to reverse nearly everything they did with USAID. They have to open up Oh.

Well, I think the big answer to that is they actually haven't done a lot. Like when you look behind the hood of what they've actually accomplished in two months, it's not a lot of stuff. There's a lot of executive orders that say a lot of things, but don't actually do a lot of things. A lot of It's like, we have to study this over at the course of ninety days. I direct you to do this over the course of sixty days. Not a lot is actually getting done. And what is getting done is getting reversed. For example, just thirty minutes ago before I got on this show, a federal judge in Maryland ordered essentially said that the Trump administration has to reverse nearly everything they did with USAID. They have to open up Oh.

Oh thank god, Oh my god. I was on another podcast, Aaron, You're making me want to.

Oh thank god, Oh my god. I was on another podcast, Aaron, You're making me want to.

Cry, which is great news, right, but when you think about it, the federal government will now have to spend more money reopening USAID and REI all these people they did, saving all that money allegedly, right, allegedly, And you're saying, well, you want government efficiency, but now we're spending more money to cut money. It's it's wild.

Cry, which is great news, right, but when you think about it, the federal government will now have to spend more money reopening USAID and REI all these people they did, saving all that money allegedly, right, allegedly, And you're saying, well, you want government efficiency, but now we're spending more money to cut money. It's it's wild.

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I think that's something people miss is that, Look, nobody wants there to be waste, right nobody. By the way, I got asked ten years ago if you were if you were the president tomorrow, what would be your first action, And I said, well, nobody's going to think it would be this, but I would. I would hire forensic accountants to audit every single state and department in the country. I want to know where all the money is. I want to understand how best to maximize the ROI of the United States budget, because let's be clear, taxes are an investment in a society, and everyone should be getting a return. Clearly, people like Elon Musk don't want to invest at all. They just want all the returns. They want to steal our money. And apparently he wants to privatize Social Security because the close to trillion dollars he has isn't enough for him, and he wants two point seven trillion more crazy pants. But I think it's also really important for people to go, oh, there's probably not as much waste as we thought. Oh, these programs cost money, but they make the planet healthier. For example, with USAID, the work we do around the world. That soft power is what won the Cold War. It is absolutely first and foremost about national security, and it's just the right thing to do. To ensure that people around the planet have access to medicine that they need that we can produce cheaply should be one of the great honors of American civil life. And to be clear, preventing the next pandemic, whether it be tuberculosis becoming untreatable or a Bola matters to us because diseases don't stay in borders. And so what I think hasn't been considered is that to turn these things off, these giant machines that get this flywheel of momentum, going to turn them off lights money on fire, and to have to restart them is going to require a whole lot of energy, ie more money being lit on fire to get them back to where they were in the first place. So how do you think, because I'm going to say, I feel better hearing you say, listen, it's really bad that they actually haven't done that much. You're right, I needed to hear that they've also done a lot of really horrible things, and a lot of what they're doing is so cruel. How do you think we begin to talk to people, not just people like us voters on the other side, our neighbors. The internet would make you think of everybody hates everybody, We mostly all really like each other in person. How do you think we start talking to each other and letting the truth of how this stuff works and how it's good for everyone actually ring true, so that we can make like a team America, because it really is all of America. Versus the oligarchs. At this point, how do we start to to help cut through the noise and remind people that we're in this together. How do we bring the truth back to our side?

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I think that's something people miss is that, Look, nobody wants there to be waste, right nobody. By the way, I got asked ten years ago if you were if you were the president tomorrow, what would be your first action, And I said, well, nobody's going to think it would be this, but I would. I would hire forensic accountants to audit every single state and department in the country. I want to know where all the money is. I want to understand how best to maximize the ROI of the United States budget, because let's be clear, taxes are an investment in a society, and everyone should be getting a return. Clearly, people like Elon Musk don't want to invest at all. They just want all the returns. They want to steal our money. And apparently he wants to privatize Social Security because the close to trillion dollars he has isn't enough for him, and he wants two point seven trillion more crazy pants. But I think it's also really important for people to go, oh, there's probably not as much waste as we thought. Oh, these programs cost money, but they make the planet healthier. For example, with USAID, the work we do around the world. That soft power is what won the Cold War. It is absolutely first and foremost about national security, and it's just the right thing to do. To ensure that people around the planet have access to medicine that they need that we can produce cheaply should be one of the great honors of American civil life. And to be clear, preventing the next pandemic, whether it be tuberculosis becoming untreatable or a Bola matters to us because diseases don't stay in borders. And so what I think hasn't been considered is that to turn these things off, these giant machines that get this flywheel of momentum, going to turn them off lights money on fire, and to have to restart them is going to require a whole lot of energy, ie more money being lit on fire to get them back to where they were in the first place. So how do you think, because I'm going to say, I feel better hearing you say, listen, it's really bad that they actually haven't done that much. You're right, I needed to hear that they've also done a lot of really horrible things, and a lot of what they're doing is so cruel. How do you think we begin to talk to people, not just people like us voters on the other side, our neighbors. The internet would make you think of everybody hates everybody, We mostly all really like each other in person. How do you think we start talking to each other and letting the truth of how this stuff works and how it's good for everyone actually ring true, so that we can make like a team America, because it really is all of America. Versus the oligarchs. At this point, how do we start to to help cut through the noise and remind people that we're in this together. How do we bring the truth back to our side?

Bye bye bye by sticking to it right bye, by continue parroting truth. I think the truth is the most important thing, and just sticking to the facts, that sticking to the black and white, not sensationalizing things, right, getting back around a dinner table and finding common agreement over the future of social security, for example. But I will say I think that in a time right now where you have one party that is clearly unified behind Trump and another party that doesn't really have an opposition leader, to me, the best opposition is no opposition. This is what the voters voted for. Give them what they want. Let them see what they voted for. And you're already seeing it. And his approval ratings are falling right Google ratings among independence is down to thirty percent. Sixty seven percent disapprove of him and you. And there are elections coming up in New York in a special election. You have the Wisconsin Supreme Court race on April first, you have November elections, and then twenty twenty six, and slowly but surely the pendulum will swim. At a time where you don't really have a viable opposition. You don't have a leader on the left saying saying the truth. You have just a bunch of leaders who are not coordinated and messaging. I really think it's important to let voters see for themselves of like, is this really what and listen at the end of the day, if Americans want this, that's on them, Like, we can't stop that if two point one percent want it. But I don't think that's the.

Bye bye bye by sticking to it right bye, by continue parroting truth. I think the truth is the most important thing, and just sticking to the facts, that sticking to the black and white, not sensationalizing things, right, getting back around a dinner table and finding common agreement over the future of social security, for example. But I will say I think that in a time right now where you have one party that is clearly unified behind Trump and another party that doesn't really have an opposition leader, to me, the best opposition is no opposition. This is what the voters voted for. Give them what they want. Let them see what they voted for. And you're already seeing it. And his approval ratings are falling right Google ratings among independence is down to thirty percent. Sixty seven percent disapprove of him and you. And there are elections coming up in New York in a special election. You have the Wisconsin Supreme Court race on April first, you have November elections, and then twenty twenty six, and slowly but surely the pendulum will swim. At a time where you don't really have a viable opposition. You don't have a leader on the left saying saying the truth. You have just a bunch of leaders who are not coordinated and messaging. I really think it's important to let voters see for themselves of like, is this really what and listen at the end of the day, if Americans want this, that's on them, Like, we can't stop that if two point one percent want it. But I don't think that's the.

Case anyway, Well I don't either. I don't think it's the case, not only with Trump voters, but I also think it's really important, exactly as you said, to continue to tell the truth. He had the smallest electoral margin in history, right, He barely won.

Case anyway, Well I don't either. I don't think it's the case, not only with Trump voters, but I also think it's really important, exactly as you said, to continue to tell the truth. He had the smallest electoral margin in history, right, He barely won.

Thousand votes in three states. That's it.

Thousand votes in three states. That's it.

He barely won. So this is not a mandate, This is not a demand. And I do think that the lawlessness. You can't call yourself the party of law and order and support people who beat police officers to death. You can't call yourself the party of law and order and defy the courts and defy everything that is sacred about America, which is our equality, our justice system, your right to do process. You can't call yourself the party of family values when everyone around you is a rapist and the guy who you gave control of all of our data has fourteen kids with how many is it seven or eight? Women?

He barely won. So this is not a mandate, This is not a demand. And I do think that the lawlessness. You can't call yourself the party of law and order and support people who beat police officers to death. You can't call yourself the party of law and order and defy the courts and defy everything that is sacred about America, which is our equality, our justice system, your right to do process. You can't call yourself the party of family values when everyone around you is a rapist and the guy who you gave control of all of our data has fourteen kids with how many is it seven or eight? Women?

Now?

Now?

Like, what are we doing? And I do think the voters in watching what he's doing are having that, Oh, the Emperor has no close moment. Do you think that even though they're being heavily critiqued for it, the electeds on the left, the Democrats aren't organizing a massive resistance right now so people can find out.

Like, what are we doing? And I do think the voters in watching what he's doing are having that, Oh, the Emperor has no close moment. Do you think that even though they're being heavily critiqued for it, the electeds on the left, the Democrats aren't organizing a massive resistance right now so people can find out.

I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.

I think maybe we're giving them too much credit. I don't know.

I think maybe we're giving them too much credit. I don't know.

Maybe we are because the one thing that Republicans do well and I saw this on the inside his message well, right, like if they want to talk about Hunter Biden's laptop, everyone from Tucker Carlson to your smallest mom and pop influencer will be talking about Hunter Biden's laptop. On the Democratic side, it's like, we have affordable housing, reproductive rights, all these great things. But yeah, different topics, one hundred different people and there's no coordinating.

Maybe we are because the one thing that Republicans do well and I saw this on the inside his message well, right, like if they want to talk about Hunter Biden's laptop, everyone from Tucker Carlson to your smallest mom and pop influencer will be talking about Hunter Biden's laptop. On the Democratic side, it's like, we have affordable housing, reproductive rights, all these great things. But yeah, different topics, one hundred different people and there's no coordinating.

But can I ask you a question, because now we know how much money Russia has been pumping into these right wing networks. We know that for them, this is opposition. We know that they're bragging on our TV that Vladimir Putin is destroying America without having to launch a single missile. I mean they're talking about it out loud. They talked about how they bought an election for Donald Trump. The right wing all stays on message because they're paid to deliver that message.

But can I ask you a question, because now we know how much money Russia has been pumping into these right wing networks. We know that for them, this is opposition. We know that they're bragging on our TV that Vladimir Putin is destroying America without having to launch a single missile. I mean they're talking about it out loud. They talked about how they bought an election for Donald Trump. The right wing all stays on message because they're paid to deliver that message.

They do a good job. They have I mean the left doesn't have that.

They do a good job. They have I mean the left doesn't have that.

No, we don't have the money, we don't have the reach, we don't have the like, we don't have the evil network of billionaires you know, paying Tucker Carlson to do pro Russia commercials. We just don't have it. How do you think that became such a runaway train because you witnessed some of that disinformation up close in your house. I mean, your father literally helped Rudy Giuliani investigate Joe and Hunter Biden this whole sham of a Ukraine story, which now the guy has admitted he made up and he's going to jail in the first place. But for some reason, the fact that it's all been found to be a lie hasn't broken through. So why do you think that is? Because you wrote in your book, I'm going to quote you to you, which is so cheesy. I'm sorry, but I'm doing it for the listeners at home. You wrote in your book quote, it was clear to me that everything the mayor and my father did through the summer months of twenty nineteen related to Ukraine and the Bidens was done at the direction and with the consent of President Trump. But when your father got arrested in twenty nineteen for this whole scam, Donald Trump immediately distanced himself. So I would imagine as on the personal level, your book is a way for you to stand up for your out a little bit. But I would also imagine on the social, sort of societal level, it's a way for you to try to ring the bell and say this was all made up? Was Can you tell people about it because there might be somebody listening who's like, what do you mean it was made up? I haven't seen that anywhere. Give us a little overview, and then tell us why you think the lie has continued to outlast the truth.

No, we don't have the money, we don't have the reach, we don't have the like, we don't have the evil network of billionaires you know, paying Tucker Carlson to do pro Russia commercials. We just don't have it. How do you think that became such a runaway train because you witnessed some of that disinformation up close in your house. I mean, your father literally helped Rudy Giuliani investigate Joe and Hunter Biden this whole sham of a Ukraine story, which now the guy has admitted he made up and he's going to jail in the first place. But for some reason, the fact that it's all been found to be a lie hasn't broken through. So why do you think that is? Because you wrote in your book, I'm going to quote you to you, which is so cheesy. I'm sorry, but I'm doing it for the listeners at home. You wrote in your book quote, it was clear to me that everything the mayor and my father did through the summer months of twenty nineteen related to Ukraine and the Bidens was done at the direction and with the consent of President Trump. But when your father got arrested in twenty nineteen for this whole scam, Donald Trump immediately distanced himself. So I would imagine as on the personal level, your book is a way for you to stand up for your out a little bit. But I would also imagine on the social, sort of societal level, it's a way for you to try to ring the bell and say this was all made up? Was Can you tell people about it because there might be somebody listening who's like, what do you mean it was made up? I haven't seen that anywhere. Give us a little overview, and then tell us why you think the lie has continued to outlast the truth.

Yeah, I mean to me, every time I sat in these rooms, and granted I was only privy to like ten percent of everything that they were doing, right, so there was a lot more that I was than privy too, but everything every time I was in these rooms, it was more of like, oh, we have questions that we need to answer, and we keep hitting these roadblocks and we keep getting the wrong answer or the answer we don't like, and it's how to massage this answer to kind of get it to where we need to go. So it was always like they're constantly hitting roadblocks and all of these quote unquote investigations, and I call them shadow diplomacy schemes when I can.

Yeah, I mean to me, every time I sat in these rooms, and granted I was only privy to like ten percent of everything that they were doing, right, so there was a lot more that I was than privy too, but everything every time I was in these rooms, it was more of like, oh, we have questions that we need to answer, and we keep hitting these roadblocks and we keep getting the wrong answer or the answer we don't like, and it's how to massage this answer to kind of get it to where we need to go. So it was always like they're constantly hitting roadblocks and all of these quote unquote investigations, and I call them shadow diplomacy schemes when I can.

I ask a question when you say hitting roadblocks, meaning they would say find this dirt, and someone would say the dirt doesn't exist, give it up, and then they'd say, no, you have to make us some dirt more or less.

I ask a question when you say hitting roadblocks, meaning they would say find this dirt, and someone would say the dirt doesn't exist, give it up, and then they'd say, no, you have to make us some dirt more or less.

Or we're gonna mold what you said into something that it isn't. Essentially, I really think the reason why it hasn't, the debunking of it hasn't broken through, is partially because the messaging on that side is just so well, it's so easy to understand Joe Biden is corrupt. That is so easy to grasp. It is much harder to grasp that, No, actually the Hunter Biden laptop didn't contain exactly what it contained. But like when you go into the details, you miss the narrative, and they don't go on details. They have their high level talking points and they stick to it, and to this day, that's what they're doing on a lot of these things. So that's why we're an average American. It's so easy to understand like these big buzzwords or these big phrases. On the other side, when you're trying to fight for the truth, you do have to go into the nitty gritty. You do have to be details. But no one's going to listen to that. No one really cared as much to listen to that. So I really think that's part of it. I mean, I will say though, that we are in such twenty twenty twenty five, we're in such a different space compared to where we were in twenty nineteen. Like back then it was the Trump administration. I mean that was the in the third year of the first administration, and they were still figuring out like they're left from right, like they still didn't know really much about the levers of government. We were in such a different environment. They know how to get things done now, they know, they know the mistakes they made, so it's a completely different environment.

Or we're gonna mold what you said into something that it isn't. Essentially, I really think the reason why it hasn't, the debunking of it hasn't broken through, is partially because the messaging on that side is just so well, it's so easy to understand Joe Biden is corrupt. That is so easy to grasp. It is much harder to grasp that, No, actually the Hunter Biden laptop didn't contain exactly what it contained. But like when you go into the details, you miss the narrative, and they don't go on details. They have their high level talking points and they stick to it, and to this day, that's what they're doing on a lot of these things. So that's why we're an average American. It's so easy to understand like these big buzzwords or these big phrases. On the other side, when you're trying to fight for the truth, you do have to go into the nitty gritty. You do have to be details. But no one's going to listen to that. No one really cared as much to listen to that. So I really think that's part of it. I mean, I will say though, that we are in such twenty twenty twenty five, we're in such a different space compared to where we were in twenty nineteen. Like back then it was the Trump administration. I mean that was the in the third year of the first administration, and they were still figuring out like they're left from right, like they still didn't know really much about the levers of government. We were in such a different environment. They know how to get things done now, they know, they know the mistakes they made, so it's a completely different environment.

Now, meaning they're more expert at how to break things correct.

Now, meaning they're more expert at how to break things correct.

Meaning I told everyone this back in the first or really during the twenty twenty four election cycle, and people are like, well, do you like Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump? Like, who do you think would be better if you were a Republican? I'd say, well, to any Republican who wants someone in office, Donald Trump and we're on the sand, want the same thing. One can just get it done, the other can't. Right. Ron Sants is just a little smarter. Donald Trump is an idiot. He can't actually get things done. And we saw that in the first Trump administration. And well, now he's in office. He has people around him who have been in government know kind of what to do more, and he has no one's obstructing him anymore, no one's whistle blowing on him anymore because he has all these loyalists around him. So it's just kind of like full steam ahead. There's no learning curve anymore.

Meaning I told everyone this back in the first or really during the twenty twenty four election cycle, and people are like, well, do you like Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump? Like, who do you think would be better if you were a Republican? I'd say, well, to any Republican who wants someone in office, Donald Trump and we're on the sand, want the same thing. One can just get it done, the other can't. Right. Ron Sants is just a little smarter. Donald Trump is an idiot. He can't actually get things done. And we saw that in the first Trump administration. And well, now he's in office. He has people around him who have been in government know kind of what to do more, and he has no one's obstructing him anymore, no one's whistle blowing on him anymore because he has all these loyalists around him. So it's just kind of like full steam ahead. There's no learning curve anymore.

Yeah, that's what scares me is that there's not there's not a Cassidy Hutchinson in the White House anymore.

Yeah, that's what scares me is that there's not there's not a Cassidy Hutchinson in the White House anymore.

And.

And.

That's really terrifying. After you released the book, did you hear from anyone on the Trump team? Did anyone reach out to you or were you just immediately persona non grata.

That's really terrifying. After you released the book, did you hear from anyone on the Trump team? Did anyone reach out to you or were you just immediately persona non grata.

I think immediately persona non grata. I mean, that was that was such a crazy time for me. That was also I wrote that book in two weeks between what Yeah, so I was studying for the bar exam at the time and oh my god, during COVID. I finished on like at the bar exam was like October tenth or something, and then two weeks later I published this book just to get it out before the November election. And it wasn't my best work, probably not, but I just needed to get it out there in case someone was voting and would read it and see it.

I think immediately persona non grata. I mean, that was that was such a crazy time for me. That was also I wrote that book in two weeks between what Yeah, so I was studying for the bar exam at the time and oh my god, during COVID. I finished on like at the bar exam was like October tenth or something, and then two weeks later I published this book just to get it out before the November election. And it wasn't my best work, probably not, but I just needed to get it out there in case someone was voting and would read it and see it.

I am so shook.

I am so shook.

So yeah, it was a crazy time. It was also during COVID, so I didn't really have anything else to do.

So yeah, it was a crazy time. It was also during COVID, so I didn't really have anything else to do.

But wow, completely non related to this conversation, but I have so many questions for you about time management, Like, clearly you've nailed something, so we're going to have to follow up. What is it like now when you look back at that, Yeah, you know, you speak so much about the days following your dad's arrest and trying to make sense of all of this. I can't imagine that it is comfortable to have to investigate how someone's so important to you could essentially, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine betray you or your country in such a way. How do you make sense of it? Like, what's your relationship with your father now? Because this is a big national political scandal, but this is also your dad.

But wow, completely non related to this conversation, but I have so many questions for you about time management, Like, clearly you've nailed something, so we're going to have to follow up. What is it like now when you look back at that, Yeah, you know, you speak so much about the days following your dad's arrest and trying to make sense of all of this. I can't imagine that it is comfortable to have to investigate how someone's so important to you could essentially, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine betray you or your country in such a way. How do you make sense of it? Like, what's your relationship with your father now? Because this is a big national political scandal, but this is also your dad.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I love my dad and not my dad. I wasn't really involved in the yeah and stuff like that, so that was kind of separate, but from like a human perspective going through that, as I guess a fledgling lawyer, I quickly realized because I wanted to do criminal defense work, and when he was arrested, I kind of experienced the system from the family lens, from the family of the accused. And when I said earlier that there is truly nothing in comparison to having the weight of the Justice Department on your shoulders, like I thought, genuinely break a person down And to me, I was looking at that and I was like, it doesn't matter. I mean, like whether or not you you did what you're accused of, the hell they put you through to get to their end result, Yeah, it's not. And my dad, I mean, it's just a unique case, and that there was a lot of national tension, right he got an interview on Rachel Matta or whatever, like, he definitely got some leniency when it came to sentencing. But the average American doesn't get that same leniency. The average am goes through this justice system with who can't afford an attorney, who has like a single mom with four kids and is being thrown away for years, and they throw away, they throw them away, and they locked them away without the key in a very scary, very tough situation. I saw that firsthand as the son of someone who was accused, and I want anyone to have to go through that.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I love my dad and not my dad. I wasn't really involved in the yeah and stuff like that, so that was kind of separate, but from like a human perspective going through that, as I guess a fledgling lawyer, I quickly realized because I wanted to do criminal defense work, and when he was arrested, I kind of experienced the system from the family lens, from the family of the accused. And when I said earlier that there is truly nothing in comparison to having the weight of the Justice Department on your shoulders, like I thought, genuinely break a person down And to me, I was looking at that and I was like, it doesn't matter. I mean, like whether or not you you did what you're accused of, the hell they put you through to get to their end result, Yeah, it's not. And my dad, I mean, it's just a unique case, and that there was a lot of national tension, right he got an interview on Rachel Matta or whatever, like, he definitely got some leniency when it came to sentencing. But the average American doesn't get that same leniency. The average am goes through this justice system with who can't afford an attorney, who has like a single mom with four kids and is being thrown away for years, and they throw away, they throw them away, and they locked them away without the key in a very scary, very tough situation. I saw that firsthand as the son of someone who was accused, and I want anyone to have to go through that.