Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi friends, welcome back to work in Progress. I need you all to know that teenage me is absolutely losing her mind right now, because today we are joined by one of my then and now heroes, Jojo Jo Anna Jojo Lovasque, chart topping and award winning singer, songwriter, actress, and now first time author. You probably know Jojo, who burst onto the scene with her self titled album at just thirteen years old. Her breakout, Smash and Leave get Out, was an anthem for me and probably all of you. It led to platinum records and a string of accomplishments and a high profile wild life that then seemed to just up. Jojo seemed to evaporate from the charts and none of us knew where she'd gone, And it turned out she'd been embroiled in a legal battle to win back her music and her own voice from her label where she was trapped for years. And in her new memoir Over the Influence, Jojo holds nothing back, she brings her against the odd story of adversity and triumph to center stage, talking about being raised in a household with parents who both battled addiction and depression, to emerging victorious in this seemingly never ending lawsuit with her record label, to finally figuring out how to put these fragmented pieces of herself back together after a period of rebellion and betrayal of self that made her just feel mad. She takes all of us through these turbulent years that led her to where she is now, releasing new music under her own imprint, performing in shows and festivals around the world, headlining a Broadway show, and were this behind the scenes look at her life is so personal and so beautiful and so raw. Jojo really broke my heart open in the most beautiful ways as I read this, and also made me understand things about myself and my own journey that blew my mind. And I imagine that her story will do the same for you. So let's get into this incredible tale of success and heartbreak and redemption and reclamation and a landing in resilience that I think is just so unique and so special. Let's talk to Jojo Jojo. I'm so excited that you're here, and especially because normally when I get to sit down with people, you know I'm meeting them. Where we are folks know so much about you know, people's careers or filmographies or discographies or whatever it is. And I normally like to open interviews asking people to go back to childhood and like examine the through lines and see if they feel like there's connections between themselves at eight or nine to the person they are today. And what made me so geeked about doing this with you today is that in your memoir, the new book, Over the Influence, which is so beautiful, you really start us as an audience at the beginning, and I was like, oh my god, she does what I like to do on the podcast in the book. How how did you decide to just like blow the lid off and let everybody into your world?

Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hi friends, welcome back to work in Progress. I need you all to know that teenage me is absolutely losing her mind right now, because today we are joined by one of my then and now heroes, Jojo Jo Anna Jojo Lovasque, chart topping and award winning singer, songwriter, actress, and now first time author. You probably know Jojo, who burst onto the scene with her self titled album at just thirteen years old. Her breakout, Smash and Leave get Out, was an anthem for me and probably all of you. It led to platinum records and a string of accomplishments and a high profile wild life that then seemed to just up. Jojo seemed to evaporate from the charts and none of us knew where she'd gone, And it turned out she'd been embroiled in a legal battle to win back her music and her own voice from her label where she was trapped for years. And in her new memoir Over the Influence, Jojo holds nothing back, she brings her against the odd story of adversity and triumph to center stage, talking about being raised in a household with parents who both battled addiction and depression, to emerging victorious in this seemingly never ending lawsuit with her record label, to finally figuring out how to put these fragmented pieces of herself back together after a period of rebellion and betrayal of self that made her just feel mad. She takes all of us through these turbulent years that led her to where she is now, releasing new music under her own imprint, performing in shows and festivals around the world, headlining a Broadway show, and were this behind the scenes look at her life is so personal and so beautiful and so raw. Jojo really broke my heart open in the most beautiful ways as I read this, and also made me understand things about myself and my own journey that blew my mind. And I imagine that her story will do the same for you. So let's get into this incredible tale of success and heartbreak and redemption and reclamation and a landing in resilience that I think is just so unique and so special. Let's talk to Jojo Jojo. I'm so excited that you're here, and especially because normally when I get to sit down with people, you know I'm meeting them. Where we are folks know so much about you know, people's careers or filmographies or discographies or whatever it is. And I normally like to open interviews asking people to go back to childhood and like examine the through lines and see if they feel like there's connections between themselves at eight or nine to the person they are today. And what made me so geeked about doing this with you today is that in your memoir, the new book, Over the Influence, which is so beautiful, you really start us as an audience at the beginning, and I was like, oh my god, she does what I like to do on the podcast in the book. How how did you decide to just like blow the lid off and let everybody into your world?

Thank you for having me? And I too, am curious, so curious about patterns lines, How did we get here? And what is the reason and you know, the relationship between things? And I feel like our history and even the history of our families of Oregon. I think it's such good information in understanding ourselves and our world views. And Over the Influence is an examination of my experience so far. And I spent so much of my teens in twenties being and I honest say, I'm over it completely, but so much confusion and chaos inside myself and my experience. So I think in like putting it in black and white, I wanted to start making sense of it for myself because as human beings, we're designed to share and to connect and to like be storytellers. I just put it out there, and I was scared, and I was like, who am I to do this? Like is this the ultimate self indulgence? Am I just being like? What's the point? But it was just a good exercise. And I think that everybody, everybody has a story to tell. I believe that so wholeheartedly. And we can choose to look at things negatively, we can choose to look at things as pivot points and opportunities and things that made us grittier or you know, resilient or whatever. And it's it was just a really interesting experience. I know I've said that words so many times, but like, that's what I think about.

Thank you for having me? And I too, am curious, so curious about patterns lines, How did we get here? And what is the reason and you know, the relationship between things? And I feel like our history and even the history of our families of Oregon. I think it's such good information in understanding ourselves and our world views. And Over the Influence is an examination of my experience so far. And I spent so much of my teens in twenties being and I honest say, I'm over it completely, but so much confusion and chaos inside myself and my experience. So I think in like putting it in black and white, I wanted to start making sense of it for myself because as human beings, we're designed to share and to connect and to like be storytellers. I just put it out there, and I was scared, and I was like, who am I to do this? Like is this the ultimate self indulgence? Am I just being like? What's the point? But it was just a good exercise. And I think that everybody, everybody has a story to tell. I believe that so wholeheartedly. And we can choose to look at things negatively, we can choose to look at things as pivot points and opportunities and things that made us grittier or you know, resilient or whatever. And it's it was just a really interesting experience. I know I've said that words so many times, but like, that's what I think about.

No, I get it, And I think something really profound also about deciding to own your story, not just as a human, but particularly as a woman in the world, because when you gain whatever relative level of success, especially as a woman as an independent woman. The world then sort of says, well, who do you think you are? And men who write memoirs are never accused of being self indulgent, but women are like, oh does my story matter? Is this self indulgent? Is anybody gonna care? You know? And then people will say like, nobody asked, why do.

No, I get it, And I think something really profound also about deciding to own your story, not just as a human, but particularly as a woman in the world, because when you gain whatever relative level of success, especially as a woman as an independent woman. The world then sort of says, well, who do you think you are? And men who write memoirs are never accused of being self indulgent, but women are like, oh does my story matter? Is this self indulgent? Is anybody gonna care? You know? And then people will say like, nobody asked, why do.

You think anyone?

You think anyone?

And it's like, y'all don't do that to men. But at the end of the day, as humans from the time were born, we only learn by mirroring each other. We learn by observing each other. And I think when we can stop performing and actually say the hard thing, do the hard thing, be honest about the toughest things, we give permission to other people to do that as well. And so when you're able to do that as a woman, especially as a young woman, a successful woman, a young, beautiful, successful woman, all the things that the world wants to take you down the minute you achieve and you do it anyway, it's like it takes compounding courage. So I'm here for it. I'm like, yeah, girl, like put it on the page, do the thing.

And it's like, y'all don't do that to men. But at the end of the day, as humans from the time were born, we only learn by mirroring each other. We learn by observing each other. And I think when we can stop performing and actually say the hard thing, do the hard thing, be honest about the toughest things, we give permission to other people to do that as well. And so when you're able to do that as a woman, especially as a young woman, a successful woman, a young, beautiful, successful woman, all the things that the world wants to take you down the minute you achieve and you do it anyway, it's like it takes compounding courage. So I'm here for it. I'm like, yeah, girl, like put it on the page, do the thing.

But it's exactly what you said. And it's like people who have written their stories, particularly well people of all ages. But I think of someone like Jeanett mccurty by her being courageous, it unlocks something within me to say, you know what, let me have the audacity to think about myself as a storyteller as a's someone who's actually going to write it as well. She's you know, she didn't have a ghostwriter. And that gave me the the balls I think to be like, Okay, we're the same age. Like, I know, I don't have experience in this, but I have so much heart and desire to get it right for myself and also to stop counting myself out of being an authority in my own life, you know, being the one who can you know, guide my own course as opposed to looking for somebody else who know better or whatever. Like my voice is just as important as someone else's, and that's I believe that for everybody, you know. But it takes us owning that and stacking our claim in that. And I will say that that's what I'm grateful to be on the other to be like on the other side of thirty now, because in my twenties I wouldn't have had the balls to take up space I did. Yeah, I felt so ashamed.

But it's exactly what you said. And it's like people who have written their stories, particularly well people of all ages. But I think of someone like Jeanett mccurty by her being courageous, it unlocks something within me to say, you know what, let me have the audacity to think about myself as a storyteller as a's someone who's actually going to write it as well. She's you know, she didn't have a ghostwriter. And that gave me the the balls I think to be like, Okay, we're the same age. Like, I know, I don't have experience in this, but I have so much heart and desire to get it right for myself and also to stop counting myself out of being an authority in my own life, you know, being the one who can you know, guide my own course as opposed to looking for somebody else who know better or whatever. Like my voice is just as important as someone else's, and that's I believe that for everybody, you know. But it takes us owning that and stacking our claim in that. And I will say that that's what I'm grateful to be on the other to be like on the other side of thirty now, because in my twenties I wouldn't have had the balls to take up space I did. Yeah, I felt so ashamed.

You know, I fully agree. I felt that way all through my twenties. I felt like my life was just starting at thirty. And what I realized is I was terrified through my twenties. The entire decade of my thirties, I was growing a lot, but I think I was trying to figure out how not to be afraid. And then I finally, I finally stopped trying to do it everybody else's way at forty. So like the way I thought things started for me at thirty, where I was like I can't wait to be thirty, I turned forty and I was like, thank god, we made it through that. Oh. So, like, let me just tell you, it only gets better from this vantage point and having having taken the reins for yourself and put all of this down. And I think, especially when you're an artist, there's something about getting it out and on paper that allows you to process in ways you don't even know you're not processing before you do that, Cause like you've been trained your whole life to perform and be good and be professional and be on top of it, and you don't even know when you're just performing and not living. And when you get your life out on paper and you get to read it and you get to experience it, like from this point with it all down and bound in a book, do you feel like you can kind of see that through line in your journey back to your childhood now in ways you couldn't before you wrote it all down.

You know, I fully agree. I felt that way all through my twenties. I felt like my life was just starting at thirty. And what I realized is I was terrified through my twenties. The entire decade of my thirties, I was growing a lot, but I think I was trying to figure out how not to be afraid. And then I finally, I finally stopped trying to do it everybody else's way at forty. So like the way I thought things started for me at thirty, where I was like I can't wait to be thirty, I turned forty and I was like, thank god, we made it through that. Oh. So, like, let me just tell you, it only gets better from this vantage point and having having taken the reins for yourself and put all of this down. And I think, especially when you're an artist, there's something about getting it out and on paper that allows you to process in ways you don't even know you're not processing before you do that, Cause like you've been trained your whole life to perform and be good and be professional and be on top of it, and you don't even know when you're just performing and not living. And when you get your life out on paper and you get to read it and you get to experience it, like from this point with it all down and bound in a book, do you feel like you can kind of see that through line in your journey back to your childhood now in ways you couldn't before you wrote it all down.

Absolutely? And the Big Sister, I mean, I'm an only child and like me, big you are, so we're a specific breed. You know where it's it's it makes you into a certain type of person, And I think cool. But I'm just saying the Big Sister within me to my inner child, I want to just wrap her up because she was seeds of confusion were planted very very early, and shaky ground instability and fight flight freeze. My nervous system was really conditioned around getting validation from outside sources and influences and also looking for that adulation, that stimulation, that sense of everything's going to be okay, because I didn't feel things were going to be okay growing up parents who both really identified with their addictions. And I'm saying it like that because I don't like to like in the program, which is where I kind of grew up in alcoholics Anonymous because both my parents were either into narcotics or alcohol, and a lot of my family too, And you know, I just it was weird to me that. I mean, like, I have an aunt who has like fifty sixty years of sobriety now and she still calls herself an addict. And I'm like, that's a lot of humbleness. But I don't know, it's also kind of wild, you know what I mean. I'm like, you're not just that, but I respect that, like whatever works for you for real, who knows. But I saw a lot of struggle and difficulty as a kid. I felt like this gift that I had been given my voice and the reaction that I would get from people when I would use it, I was like, oh, this could take us out of like this could be the thing that changes our lives. I think thing on Diva's Live, but I could have a video on pop up video, you know, like yeah, And I was like, maybe this could be our ticket out of this thing, our little artmit And.

Absolutely? And the Big Sister, I mean, I'm an only child and like me, big you are, so we're a specific breed. You know where it's it's it makes you into a certain type of person, And I think cool. But I'm just saying the Big Sister within me to my inner child, I want to just wrap her up because she was seeds of confusion were planted very very early, and shaky ground instability and fight flight freeze. My nervous system was really conditioned around getting validation from outside sources and influences and also looking for that adulation, that stimulation, that sense of everything's going to be okay, because I didn't feel things were going to be okay growing up parents who both really identified with their addictions. And I'm saying it like that because I don't like to like in the program, which is where I kind of grew up in alcoholics Anonymous because both my parents were either into narcotics or alcohol, and a lot of my family too, And you know, I just it was weird to me that. I mean, like, I have an aunt who has like fifty sixty years of sobriety now and she still calls herself an addict. And I'm like, that's a lot of humbleness. But I don't know, it's also kind of wild, you know what I mean. I'm like, you're not just that, but I respect that, like whatever works for you for real, who knows. But I saw a lot of struggle and difficulty as a kid. I felt like this gift that I had been given my voice and the reaction that I would get from people when I would use it, I was like, oh, this could take us out of like this could be the thing that changes our lives. I think thing on Diva's Live, but I could have a video on pop up video, you know, like yeah, And I was like, maybe this could be our ticket out of this thing, our little artmit And.

And how wild that that voice. If you performed, if it was positive, if it was art, if it was pop, if it was sexy, if everything was happy, you could get out it doubles down on the if you're good enough, little girl, you can save everyone around you. And if you save people by being good, you can never be sad, you can never be bad, you can never be heartbroken, you can never be afraid, and like, oh the pressure of that, Like I relate to you in that so hard. Because the generational trauma and the things that my family came from, it was like I have to be the perfect one. They did all of this for me. Yeah, you know, the classic immigration story, all of it. I've got to be good, good, good good, and being good actually made me incapable of being fully myself for a really long time because I ignored everything that wasn't good, and I just leaned in to like be a camp counselor be a set leader, be a good teammate, be a good and it's like you're only half of yourself.

And how wild that that voice. If you performed, if it was positive, if it was art, if it was pop, if it was sexy, if everything was happy, you could get out it doubles down on the if you're good enough, little girl, you can save everyone around you. And if you save people by being good, you can never be sad, you can never be bad, you can never be heartbroken, you can never be afraid, and like, oh the pressure of that, Like I relate to you in that so hard. Because the generational trauma and the things that my family came from, it was like I have to be the perfect one. They did all of this for me. Yeah, you know, the classic immigration story, all of it. I've got to be good, good, good good, and being good actually made me incapable of being fully myself for a really long time because I ignored everything that wasn't good, and I just leaned in to like be a camp counselor be a set leader, be a good teammate, be a good and it's like you're only half of yourself.

I mean Sofia, I still find myself doing that very very much so, and it's like a but I do have more awareness than I did years ago. I think my awareness is sharpening and I find myself I'm checking in with my heart. I'm like, is it open, is it closed? Is it? Am I being robo Joe. That's like people around me will be like, oh, I mean sometimes you know, or I can clock it in myself, like I'm acting like a robot. I don't even know how to not be performative, And it really is experiment right now.

I mean Sofia, I still find myself doing that very very much so, and it's like a but I do have more awareness than I did years ago. I think my awareness is sharpening and I find myself I'm checking in with my heart. I'm like, is it open, is it closed? Is it? Am I being robo Joe. That's like people around me will be like, oh, I mean sometimes you know, or I can clock it in myself, like I'm acting like a robot. I don't even know how to not be performative, And it really is experiment right now.

Well, and I think there's something really unique too for women in our industries, like when we analyze the world. Look, we know the world's not working very well for us, right for women, But we also know the world's not working well, at least in our country for men, like depression and suicidality and all these things. Yeah, and in a way, I think when you are a woman who who is the head of your industry, household, it's a lot of the pressure that men feel in the patriarchy, like the dads and the breadwinners and the whatever. And so we get the double feature of like the pressure of a patriarch and all the shit that happens to us as women in patriarchy. And it is very hard when you know, like if I eat, everybody eats. If I do well, everyone on my team can pay their bills, and so if I don't, they can't. It's a lot of pressure.

Well, and I think there's something really unique too for women in our industries, like when we analyze the world. Look, we know the world's not working very well for us, right for women, But we also know the world's not working well, at least in our country for men, like depression and suicidality and all these things. Yeah, and in a way, I think when you are a woman who who is the head of your industry, household, it's a lot of the pressure that men feel in the patriarchy, like the dads and the breadwinners and the whatever. And so we get the double feature of like the pressure of a patriarch and all the shit that happens to us as women in patriarchy. And it is very hard when you know, like if I eat, everybody eats. If I do well, everyone on my team can pay their bills, and so if I don't, they can't. It's a lot of pressure.

You're so right to highlight that it's really interesting and I think that I don't know if you relate to this, but it it certainly has been. It's been a challenge for me in relationships in you know, in relationships with men where I don't want to be the man and the woman or I don't want to emasculate someone. But I have certainly done that. I have certainly, you know, been like I literally don't need you for anything because I've done all this and I do do all this, and that is so not the energy that I I don't I don't believe that, but I think I left people feeling that way, you know what I mean, because of just being in go mode and when you we all contain many different sides. We all have masculine and feminine, and you have to really be in touch with that masculine side to produce and perform and show up. And especially when you're like in cycle, if you're like on a project, or you're like right now, I'm performing on Broadway and I'm promoting a book and I'm putting out new music, and I really have to check in with myself in the morning and night to actually just like put a hand on my heart and you know what I mean.

You're so right to highlight that it's really interesting and I think that I don't know if you relate to this, but it it certainly has been. It's been a challenge for me in relationships in you know, in relationships with men where I don't want to be the man and the woman or I don't want to emasculate someone. But I have certainly done that. I have certainly, you know, been like I literally don't need you for anything because I've done all this and I do do all this, and that is so not the energy that I I don't I don't believe that, but I think I left people feeling that way, you know what I mean, because of just being in go mode and when you we all contain many different sides. We all have masculine and feminine, and you have to really be in touch with that masculine side to produce and perform and show up. And especially when you're like in cycle, if you're like on a project, or you're like right now, I'm performing on Broadway and I'm promoting a book and I'm putting out new music, and I really have to check in with myself in the morning and night to actually just like put a hand on my heart and you know what I mean.

Yeah, to ground yourself. Yeah, to make sure that you're being and not just doing. It's big and now for our sponsors. It's interesting because you talk in the book like we're talking about patterns, right, and you talk about how you thought for a time that being surrounded by addiction and having it be over and discussed in your home would prevent you from experiencing that, but that actually you found yourself struggling with it, with the alcoholism and the substance addiction. Like do you do you feel like it was a gradual shift to those patterns coming up in you or was there a time like you're saying, where maybe you didn't have the practice of checking in and then the numbing got easy.

Yeah, to ground yourself. Yeah, to make sure that you're being and not just doing. It's big and now for our sponsors. It's interesting because you talk in the book like we're talking about patterns, right, and you talk about how you thought for a time that being surrounded by addiction and having it be over and discussed in your home would prevent you from experiencing that, but that actually you found yourself struggling with it, with the alcoholism and the substance addiction. Like do you do you feel like it was a gradual shift to those patterns coming up in you or was there a time like you're saying, where maybe you didn't have the practice of checking in and then the numbing got easy.

It was definitely about numbing. I didn't practice for a long time. I didn't have tools, and I was just so afraid, so afraid of I didn't want to become like my parents. I felt self righteous, like I was already better than them and like stronger, and like they don't have careers and they can't get it together, and my dad lives off the government and he just gets high all day and blah blah blah. I'm like you know, I'm never I could never be me, and I think it made me feel, you know, have this grandiose sense of self that I I'm just being honest about it. I'm not proud of that. But and I remember, you know, him coming to like pick me up one day because he lived in New Hampshire and when I was living in Massachusetts, I was like eighteen, and I was like, you know, I can't get in the car with you, like you're high, and he's like, you know, don't throw stones in a glasshouse, Joanna. Your addiction is like Arnold Swarzenegger in your backyard, pumping iron, just waiting for you to have a weak moment and just you know it's coming for you. You got it on both sides. And I'm like, don't speak that over my life. Yeah, And I was like, I'll never be me. And the way I think about addiction is kind of how doctor Gabor Matte speaks about it, which is that it's this hungry ghost inside of us, that is this insatiable monster really that needs more things, you know, to make it feel okay, to get outside of reality, to get outside of the truth. And I just didn't want to. I could not sit with myself for extendederiods of time for you know, until my mid twenties probably, And so for me, it wasn't like, oh I was addicted to cocaine or I was addicted to alcohol. Like I just didn't discriminate with getting out of my mind, you know what I mean. I could get out of my mind with diving into a relationship and enmeshing with you know, just sex and love and with substances and you know, a binge or you know whatever. Like I was just or work. I would be in the studio NonStop and nothing was coming from it, and I was like, oh, I just got to keep going because it's obviously. And then I was like, all of it is my fault. Not only have I saken up in this area, but you know, my work isn't good enough because you know, and then I'm in this lawsuit and I don't legally own my voice, and it was just it was a perfect storm for me to really hurt myself. And because I was so hurt, I was so in pain, I was so confused and have a support system or tools around, you know, we just in the twenty tens, it was different. It just felt like the same conversation help weren't being at.

It was definitely about numbing. I didn't practice for a long time. I didn't have tools, and I was just so afraid, so afraid of I didn't want to become like my parents. I felt self righteous, like I was already better than them and like stronger, and like they don't have careers and they can't get it together, and my dad lives off the government and he just gets high all day and blah blah blah. I'm like you know, I'm never I could never be me, and I think it made me feel, you know, have this grandiose sense of self that I I'm just being honest about it. I'm not proud of that. But and I remember, you know, him coming to like pick me up one day because he lived in New Hampshire and when I was living in Massachusetts, I was like eighteen, and I was like, you know, I can't get in the car with you, like you're high, and he's like, you know, don't throw stones in a glasshouse, Joanna. Your addiction is like Arnold Swarzenegger in your backyard, pumping iron, just waiting for you to have a weak moment and just you know it's coming for you. You got it on both sides. And I'm like, don't speak that over my life. Yeah, And I was like, I'll never be me. And the way I think about addiction is kind of how doctor Gabor Matte speaks about it, which is that it's this hungry ghost inside of us, that is this insatiable monster really that needs more things, you know, to make it feel okay, to get outside of reality, to get outside of the truth. And I just didn't want to. I could not sit with myself for extendederiods of time for you know, until my mid twenties probably, And so for me, it wasn't like, oh I was addicted to cocaine or I was addicted to alcohol. Like I just didn't discriminate with getting out of my mind, you know what I mean. I could get out of my mind with diving into a relationship and enmeshing with you know, just sex and love and with substances and you know, a binge or you know whatever. Like I was just or work. I would be in the studio NonStop and nothing was coming from it, and I was like, oh, I just got to keep going because it's obviously. And then I was like, all of it is my fault. Not only have I saken up in this area, but you know, my work isn't good enough because you know, and then I'm in this lawsuit and I don't legally own my voice, and it was just it was a perfect storm for me to really hurt myself. And because I was so hurt, I was so in pain, I was so confused and have a support system or tools around, you know, we just in the twenty tens, it was different. It just felt like the same conversation help weren't being at.

No, and especially the way that young women were treated in the industry, it was so dark, and I.

No, and especially the way that young women were treated in the industry, it was so dark, and I.

Mean I felt like my job was to stay just to be skinny and wait, do you know what I mean? Like be skinny and just look good and whenever we're ready for you, Like, yeah, I know that sounds horrible, but this is literally what I was told.

Mean I felt like my job was to stay just to be skinny and wait, do you know what I mean? Like be skinny and just look good and whenever we're ready for you, Like, yeah, I know that sounds horrible, but this is literally what I was told.

Yeah, well, and it's a really it's so hard because you achieve this thing that you've always wanted to do, and then because you're rare and talented and you've made it in some way, then they tell you don't really deserve it. It's like a very weird push and pull. It's like they want you and they know you're special, but if you know you're special, then it risks their ability to use you. So it's a constant churn. And you know, it took me a long time to understand how women would be used as pawns for everyone, for the tabloids, for the TV, for the music, for the thing. And for a long time I remember feeling like there's so much brilliance and service and intellect in me, Why is this what you want to write about why is this what you want to ask me about? And eventually I had to go, oh, because an intellectual woman with opinions is not as valuable to you as a tabloid scandal. So you'll make a scandal where there isn't any, or you'll blame a woman for a man's indiscretion, or you'll like, oh, I see, it's a churn and burn. And it's part of why I've been so like, I've felt so deeply for you, even though this is our first day connecting. Like reading the book, I was like, oh my god, this woman. I just want to like protect her at all costs. It's so much the way I feel watching like Demi's documentary, you know, and everybody from her, you know, it's Alison and all these women that I've known sort of, you know, in acquaintance ways in the industry. Everybody talking about what this has been like. And I think about, you know, for you signing to a label at twelve, it's like it's such a mark of your talent. And also you had no ability to advocate for yourself inside of this world because you were a kid.

Yeah, well, and it's a really it's so hard because you achieve this thing that you've always wanted to do, and then because you're rare and talented and you've made it in some way, then they tell you don't really deserve it. It's like a very weird push and pull. It's like they want you and they know you're special, but if you know you're special, then it risks their ability to use you. So it's a constant churn. And you know, it took me a long time to understand how women would be used as pawns for everyone, for the tabloids, for the TV, for the music, for the thing. And for a long time I remember feeling like there's so much brilliance and service and intellect in me, Why is this what you want to write about why is this what you want to ask me about? And eventually I had to go, oh, because an intellectual woman with opinions is not as valuable to you as a tabloid scandal. So you'll make a scandal where there isn't any, or you'll blame a woman for a man's indiscretion, or you'll like, oh, I see, it's a churn and burn. And it's part of why I've been so like, I've felt so deeply for you, even though this is our first day connecting. Like reading the book, I was like, oh my god, this woman. I just want to like protect her at all costs. It's so much the way I feel watching like Demi's documentary, you know, and everybody from her, you know, it's Alison and all these women that I've known sort of, you know, in acquaintance ways in the industry. Everybody talking about what this has been like. And I think about, you know, for you signing to a label at twelve, it's like it's such a mark of your talent. And also you had no ability to advocate for yourself inside of this world because you were a kid.

How have you as.

How have you as.

You've aged made sense of that because you mentioned like you knew that singing could be the way out, you knew you could save yourself and your family. You knew of the pressure at a young age. But looking back at it now, like how do you, big sister that little girl.

You've aged made sense of that because you mentioned like you knew that singing could be the way out, you knew you could save yourself and your family. You knew of the pressure at a young age. But looking back at it now, like how do you, big sister that little girl.

So we've spoken to the pressure for sure. But Yo, it was a pleasure. Like I loved and still loved singing more than anything. Love it. It is my joy. It is such a beautiful, such a wonderful experience when I'm really connected to that gift and not trying to achieve a certain thing. Which is what was? Which is? I want to be so clear because I feel like there can be a misconception when you start to share these things, like if me or Demi or Allison or sharing things and it's like are you are you looking for people to feel bad for you? Like I'm like, that's so not the case. My life is. I love my life and I'm very very grateful and I've had a lot of really weird experiences, really tough one really great ones, but it shaped me into the person I am and I'm really cool with her today. But what I want to highlight about starting so young is exactly what you said that, like, it doesn't allow you to shape an authentic sense of self when you are not a person but you're a product and you have so many cooks in the kitchen and you don't go through those normal developmental stages. People aren't really honest with you. People are treating you weird, You're getting all yes, is when people like Wou would normally say, no, you're not having to go through things like that. So how do I? And as somebody who was bullied a lot in elementary school, in middle school and then became famous still in middle school, I know still kind of deal with sometimes when I walk into a room feeling like I'm weird, and I'm okay with that, but I'm like, oh, people don't really like me. I shouldn't really be I don't really fit in anywhere.

So we've spoken to the pressure for sure. But Yo, it was a pleasure. Like I loved and still loved singing more than anything. Love it. It is my joy. It is such a beautiful, such a wonderful experience when I'm really connected to that gift and not trying to achieve a certain thing. Which is what was? Which is? I want to be so clear because I feel like there can be a misconception when you start to share these things, like if me or Demi or Allison or sharing things and it's like are you are you looking for people to feel bad for you? Like I'm like, that's so not the case. My life is. I love my life and I'm very very grateful and I've had a lot of really weird experiences, really tough one really great ones, but it shaped me into the person I am and I'm really cool with her today. But what I want to highlight about starting so young is exactly what you said that, like, it doesn't allow you to shape an authentic sense of self when you are not a person but you're a product and you have so many cooks in the kitchen and you don't go through those normal developmental stages. People aren't really honest with you. People are treating you weird, You're getting all yes, is when people like Wou would normally say, no, you're not having to go through things like that. So how do I? And as somebody who was bullied a lot in elementary school, in middle school and then became famous still in middle school, I know still kind of deal with sometimes when I walk into a room feeling like I'm weird, and I'm okay with that, but I'm like, oh, people don't really like me. I shouldn't really be I don't really fit in anywhere.

I have that too big?

I have that too big?

Isn't that crazy? Yeah?

Isn't that crazy? Yeah?

And I do think it's what you said. It almost makes me sad that you feel like you have to do the thing and get ahead of it and be like, don't get me wrong, I don't want you to feel bad. I'm very grateful. It's like, it's not that you're not too but it is this weird thing where it's like you have to clarify always that there was good even though there was bad. It's like it's okay to say some things have been really amazing and some things have been really dumb, Like it just is and it's hard, and yeah, it's hard when you're a kid. It didn't happen to me as early, like I went through a lot of bullying, a lot of like even in high school, being sort of like brought into the like cool click but held at the bottom of it, like I was the bottom layer of it. And and so it was like you're in, but we're going to make fun of you relentlessly, like it's weird.

And I do think it's what you said. It almost makes me sad that you feel like you have to do the thing and get ahead of it and be like, don't get me wrong, I don't want you to feel bad. I'm very grateful. It's like, it's not that you're not too but it is this weird thing where it's like you have to clarify always that there was good even though there was bad. It's like it's okay to say some things have been really amazing and some things have been really dumb, Like it just is and it's hard, and yeah, it's hard when you're a kid. It didn't happen to me as early, like I went through a lot of bullying, a lot of like even in high school, being sort of like brought into the like cool click but held at the bottom of it, like I was the bottom layer of it. And and so it was like you're in, but we're going to make fun of you relentlessly, like it's weird.

I totally relate to that, right, and.

I totally relate to that, right, and.

I felt like I could never figure it out. And then it was college, and then I went and started working on One Tree Hill, and then all my college friends were like, you know, it was the era of like the clubs in LA and they'd be like, we want to go here and get us a table here and do this. And I'd be like, Okay, I'm coming home for the weekend. Let's all go out. And then it was like what you think you're important? You think we're supposed to kiss your ass, and I was like, well, no, but you you asked me to get the because you said that, wait, I don't, and I I didn't have the language and the understanding that I have now then. So I spent, you know, the first ten years of my career when it looked great from the outside, like on this big TV show, feeling constantly paranoid that I was doing something wrong, that I was too much or not enough, or things were too available or not available enough because I wasn't on like a serious show on HBO, or like everything was always something was wrong. Yep. And I feel really grateful that for a lot of us, this period of our life has happened in the normalization of therapy and the common conversations around like trauma and the spectrum of experience from good to bad. Like I asked my mom, I was like, how did you guys do this with no therapy?

I felt like I could never figure it out. And then it was college, and then I went and started working on One Tree Hill, and then all my college friends were like, you know, it was the era of like the clubs in LA and they'd be like, we want to go here and get us a table here and do this. And I'd be like, Okay, I'm coming home for the weekend. Let's all go out. And then it was like what you think you're important? You think we're supposed to kiss your ass, and I was like, well, no, but you you asked me to get the because you said that, wait, I don't, and I I didn't have the language and the understanding that I have now then. So I spent, you know, the first ten years of my career when it looked great from the outside, like on this big TV show, feeling constantly paranoid that I was doing something wrong, that I was too much or not enough, or things were too available or not available enough because I wasn't on like a serious show on HBO, or like everything was always something was wrong. Yep. And I feel really grateful that for a lot of us, this period of our life has happened in the normalization of therapy and the common conversations around like trauma and the spectrum of experience from good to bad. Like I asked my mom, I was like, how did you guys do this with no therapy?

You know, I can't even imagine.

You know, I can't even imagine.

But it's like, it is weird that you always feel like, because you're quote famous, you have to couch. What was hard for you?

But it's like, it is weird that you always feel like, because you're quote famous, you have to couch. What was hard for you?

In gratitude, Yeah, I hear you. I think that people are so curious about what it's like to be in positions of power and access and relative like, right, I don't have that much well exactly, you know what I'm saying. But my life is like I have a lot to be grateful for. I can move in comfort and ease, you know what I'm saying. And I think people are curious about that, and some people are jealous about that. So I don't know. For me, I just feel like because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it actually feels like and what it actually does, and the isolation that it can create, the confusion that it can create, particularly from a young age. I just I like to speak to the I think people just think about it, not in a holistic way of like Okay, yeah, all this is true and then what about this?

In gratitude, Yeah, I hear you. I think that people are so curious about what it's like to be in positions of power and access and relative like, right, I don't have that much well exactly, you know what I'm saying. But my life is like I have a lot to be grateful for. I can move in comfort and ease, you know what I'm saying. And I think people are curious about that, and some people are jealous about that. So I don't know. For me, I just feel like because I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it actually feels like and what it actually does, and the isolation that it can create, the confusion that it can create, particularly from a young age. I just I like to speak to the I think people just think about it, not in a holistic way of like Okay, yeah, all this is true and then what about this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's some of the things that I wanted to explore in the book too, Not because I'm looking for a badge of honor, because like you're not.

I think that's some of the things that I wanted to explore in the book too, Not because I'm looking for a badge of honor, because like you're not.

Trying to have a pity party, You're actually trying to be more real.

Trying to have a pity party, You're actually trying to be more real.

Yeah, I'm interested in I'm a curious person, and like we talked about from the beginning, like yeah, what was it like, how what made you this type of person? And why why are you so understanding or why are you so you know, wanting to see all sides, because I've had a lot of different experiences. I've been at the I've seen highs lows, I've been heartbroken, I've broken hearts.

Yeah, I'm interested in I'm a curious person, and like we talked about from the beginning, like yeah, what was it like, how what made you this type of person? And why why are you so understanding or why are you so you know, wanting to see all sides, because I've had a lot of different experiences. I've been at the I've seen highs lows, I've been heartbroken, I've broken hearts.

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I think it's really important to embrace the full experience. And I think I don't know if you experienced this. Sometimes when I get asked to speak to students, I'm like, listen, I don't want to ruin your dream, but what I want you to have is a realistic dream.

And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy and I think you will too. I think it's really important to embrace the full experience. And I think I don't know if you experienced this. Sometimes when I get asked to speak to students, I'm like, listen, I don't want to ruin your dream, but what I want you to have is a realistic dream.

I don't want to acting students, yeah, any.

I don't want to acting students, yeah, any.

Any kind of artists. I'm like, I don't want you to think that you're going to get on set and that life is going to be rosy, right it really I try to think about it in terms of physics, like the pendulum swings in both directions, So the more incredible things that happen to you, the harder your life is going to get. Also, like, that's just science. It's not a personal failing. It's not it's just about equal and opposite, you know, reactions to every action, and that has really helped me, and I think it's part of why I caught myself reading your memoir being like, yes, exactly, I haven't had the exact experiences you have, but I understand what it is to try to navigate through these things. You talk about not feeling like you fit in, feeling like you're too much, you know, having these experiences that are normal for a teenager, but they get magnified in this way, and you know, it took me back in certain ways to my own you know, teen in college years and my first years on my first show, because so much of your music was a landscape to those times in my own life, and I was like, this is such a trip. And I remember even then thinking like, well, where did she go? Like where'd our favorite where'd our favorite gal go? Like You're on so many of our nostalgia mixes that my best friends and I trade around all the time. And it was so interesting to read about what was happening to you behind the scenes and how you got trapped in this label deal because now people know more about it, We know about what Taylor went through, and she re recorded all her albums and we're having these conversations about who owns music as we should, and you were struggling with all this in a time where nobody was talking about it, yet you you couldn't talk about it. So what what was it like to feel silenced but also to keep fighting?

Any kind of artists. I'm like, I don't want you to think that you're going to get on set and that life is going to be rosy, right it really I try to think about it in terms of physics, like the pendulum swings in both directions, So the more incredible things that happen to you, the harder your life is going to get. Also, like, that's just science. It's not a personal failing. It's not it's just about equal and opposite, you know, reactions to every action, and that has really helped me, and I think it's part of why I caught myself reading your memoir being like, yes, exactly, I haven't had the exact experiences you have, but I understand what it is to try to navigate through these things. You talk about not feeling like you fit in, feeling like you're too much, you know, having these experiences that are normal for a teenager, but they get magnified in this way, and you know, it took me back in certain ways to my own you know, teen in college years and my first years on my first show, because so much of your music was a landscape to those times in my own life, and I was like, this is such a trip. And I remember even then thinking like, well, where did she go? Like where'd our favorite where'd our favorite gal go? Like You're on so many of our nostalgia mixes that my best friends and I trade around all the time. And it was so interesting to read about what was happening to you behind the scenes and how you got trapped in this label deal because now people know more about it, We know about what Taylor went through, and she re recorded all her albums and we're having these conversations about who owns music as we should, and you were struggling with all this in a time where nobody was talking about it, yet you you couldn't talk about it. So what what was it like to feel silenced but also to keep fighting?

Hmm? I mean it was so maddening, and I was going to go. So I put out my first album, my first two albums thirteen fifteen, had you know, both went platinum and sold millions of records around the world, and I had, you know, a couple really really massive songs, and and then we're going to wait till I was eighteen, so I wouldn't have to, like because I just wanted to work. I was like, I don't want to be I don't want to have to think about school.

Hmm? I mean it was so maddening, and I was going to go. So I put out my first album, my first two albums thirteen fifteen, had you know, both went platinum and sold millions of records around the world, and I had, you know, a couple really really massive songs, and and then we're going to wait till I was eighteen, so I wouldn't have to, like because I just wanted to work. I was like, I don't want to be I don't want to have to think about school.

I just want to like, yeah, the set teacher and the thing.

I just want to like, yeah, the set teacher and the thing.

Yeah, So we're going to wait till I was eighteen. But then my label lost their distribution and I was beholden, as you would be in a contract, beholden to whatever they were going through with their bad business feelings. So then I was kind of a just attached to their wagon basically wherever they went, and they weren't a functioning label anymore. So because I didn't own my voice because in the contract and anything that I did in a commercial way with my voice needed to be approved by them, and they just no longer were doing that. Like if I got an opportunity to be in a movie and I was going to sing in the movie, they would just say no because I don't even know why, you know what I mean. It started to feel like they wanted to set taj me. I don't know, I don't feel that way today. I just don't choose to look at it that At the time, I'm sure it was like it was very confusing too, because these were my father figures, my uncle figures, my brothers, like these men, you know, really took me and shaped me, and they felt like family. I mean, the production company I'm assigned to it was called the Family. We were the family, and it was just heart breaking, heart breaking. And then to be in I was going to go to college at Northeastern University for cultural anthropology and I was working with the sociology department. They were like, you can do this kind of a private like a distance learning program, like you can do some virtual you can come to the school. They were going to work with me, and then the label was like, well, why don't you come to LA and try to like and we can work on music. And I was so like, oh my god, they're ready, They're ready to work on music. I'm like, I don't care about college anymore. I'm going to go do that. So that was kind of heartbreaking too, and then it it never panned out, and I was just amster wheel of making music and of seeing fans on MySpace at the time being like you know what happened, like why aren't you releasing music?

Yeah, So we're going to wait till I was eighteen. But then my label lost their distribution and I was beholden, as you would be in a contract, beholden to whatever they were going through with their bad business feelings. So then I was kind of a just attached to their wagon basically wherever they went, and they weren't a functioning label anymore. So because I didn't own my voice because in the contract and anything that I did in a commercial way with my voice needed to be approved by them, and they just no longer were doing that. Like if I got an opportunity to be in a movie and I was going to sing in the movie, they would just say no because I don't even know why, you know what I mean. It started to feel like they wanted to set taj me. I don't know, I don't feel that way today. I just don't choose to look at it that At the time, I'm sure it was like it was very confusing too, because these were my father figures, my uncle figures, my brothers, like these men, you know, really took me and shaped me, and they felt like family. I mean, the production company I'm assigned to it was called the Family. We were the family, and it was just heart breaking, heart breaking. And then to be in I was going to go to college at Northeastern University for cultural anthropology and I was working with the sociology department. They were like, you can do this kind of a private like a distance learning program, like you can do some virtual you can come to the school. They were going to work with me, and then the label was like, well, why don't you come to LA and try to like and we can work on music. And I was so like, oh my god, they're ready, They're ready to work on music. I'm like, I don't care about college anymore. I'm going to go do that. So that was kind of heartbreaking too, and then it it never panned out, and I was just amster wheel of making music and of seeing fans on MySpace at the time being like you know what happened, like why aren't you releasing music?

Yeah? Where'd you go?

Yeah? Where'd you go?

Girl? Where'd you go? And not being able to give them a concrete answer because I also felt like I needed to play the game like whenever my label was ready, that I needed to not burn the bridge completely with them because they still I was still under contract with them. It was it was so frustrating. My family was worried about me, you know. They were like, just just go to college, Joe, You're smart, you know, why don't you just do that? And I'm like, no. I felt like I had to prove something to them, like I didn't want to worry about me. I put the weight of the world on myself and nobody, nobody asked, and nobody asked me to do that, but I that's the position I assumed, and then to cope with it. You know, I had seen how my family coped, and it seemed like drinking to access was the way to do it.

Girl? Where'd you go? And not being able to give them a concrete answer because I also felt like I needed to play the game like whenever my label was ready, that I needed to not burn the bridge completely with them because they still I was still under contract with them. It was it was so frustrating. My family was worried about me, you know. They were like, just just go to college, Joe, You're smart, you know, why don't you just do that? And I'm like, no. I felt like I had to prove something to them, like I didn't want to worry about me. I put the weight of the world on myself and nobody, nobody asked, and nobody asked me to do that, but I that's the position I assumed, and then to cope with it. You know, I had seen how my family coped, and it seemed like drinking to access was the way to do it.

You know.

You know.

I Irish, Catholic, south of Boston and working class family, and that's I've seen that a lot. So that's kind of where it began, with being in that lawsuit and feeling frustrated and also being very embarrassed and ashamed that I wasn't on the trajectory that people kept telling me in the industry. People were like, oh my god, you're this You deserve the world and you're supposed to be the biggest star. And I'm like, yeah, I am are I you know what I mean. And it was just a lot of.

I Irish, Catholic, south of Boston and working class family, and that's I've seen that a lot. So that's kind of where it began, with being in that lawsuit and feeling frustrated and also being very embarrassed and ashamed that I wasn't on the trajectory that people kept telling me in the industry. People were like, oh my god, you're this You deserve the world and you're supposed to be the biggest star. And I'm like, yeah, I am are I you know what I mean. And it was just a lot of.

I'm having this like mind blowing kind of moment because this idea of your label being literally named a family. People do that a lot on sets. They're like, oh, we're a family. We're a family. But families can be super toxic and the sort of rude awakening and like trauma. I know, I went through on realizing that, like our family on my show also had like really toxic men and power in it, and that the minute that you don't serve the power structure, you become the enemy of the family. Like it's it's such whiplash because you think like, well, these are my people, and it's like, no, they want you to feel like you're they're your people because that makes money for everyone, and that can be so painful, and like it gives me this, oh, because when everything in your life feels really out of control, sometimes the thing you you think of is, well, if I'm in the right relationship, if I have real love in my life, like that can be healing at least. If work is toxic, home can be good.

I'm having this like mind blowing kind of moment because this idea of your label being literally named a family. People do that a lot on sets. They're like, oh, we're a family. We're a family. But families can be super toxic and the sort of rude awakening and like trauma. I know, I went through on realizing that, like our family on my show also had like really toxic men and power in it, and that the minute that you don't serve the power structure, you become the enemy of the family. Like it's it's such whiplash because you think like, well, these are my people, and it's like, no, they want you to feel like you're they're your people because that makes money for everyone, and that can be so painful, and like it gives me this, oh, because when everything in your life feels really out of control, sometimes the thing you you think of is, well, if I'm in the right relationship, if I have real love in my life, like that can be healing at least. If work is toxic, home can be good.

Yeah, And I can.

Yeah, And I can.

Look back at my history and see when work has been its most toxic that I have made a home out of people that had no business feeling like home to me.

Look back at my history and see when work has been its most toxic that I have made a home out of people that had no business feeling like home to me.

Whooa.

Whooa.

I so relate Sothia, And it's I'm having like I literally am like we're doing a podcast, but I feel like I'm in therapy. Oh my god, because you just you clicked something for me in my own brain that I've been ruminating on for a long time. But like it just it just clicked, like a level deeper as I've thought about your book. I'm like, wait, yes, yes, this this whoa mind blown.

I so relate Sothia, And it's I'm having like I literally am like we're doing a podcast, but I feel like I'm in therapy. Oh my god, because you just you clicked something for me in my own brain that I've been ruminating on for a long time. But like it just it just clicked, like a level deeper as I've thought about your book. I'm like, wait, yes, yes, this this whoa mind blown.

It's so helpful to be mirrors for each other and to you know, to just workshop this stuff. I love, I love that.

It's so helpful to be mirrors for each other and to you know, to just workshop this stuff. I love, I love that.

How do you think you started to identify that? Because you, you know, you've talked a lot about how even love love addiction, sex addiction, like these things aren't as talked about as substance based addiction. And for you to talk about this again so openly, I'm just so in awe of you, Like, how do you think you started to identify like, oh, I recognize the pattern of a substance as a numbing agent from my family. How do you begin to see relationships as a numbing agent for you? When does that light bulb come on?

How do you think you started to identify that? Because you, you know, you've talked a lot about how even love love addiction, sex addiction, like these things aren't as talked about as substance based addiction. And for you to talk about this again so openly, I'm just so in awe of you, Like, how do you think you started to identify like, oh, I recognize the pattern of a substance as a numbing agent from my family. How do you begin to see relationships as a numbing agent for you? When does that light bulb come on?

Starting therapy, starting journey definitely helped me to have more frameworks and more tools and just like more self awareness. I think I've always been introspective, but having a professional to bounce things off of and to you know, have her post questions to me and all that, and to be someone I really trusted with helping to guide me and influence me in a good way. I think that that she and she didn't she wasn't like you're a love addict or you're a sex addict. But it's like you don't discriminate with these things that you were using to make you numb out to. You know, you like to dissolve into somebody. You've chosen partners that are available to just serve your need for feeling good, like sex will be a big part of the relationship. They won't really have a lot. I mean when I was younger, like some of my partners didn't have a lot, a whole lot going on in their life, and I was like, I was the one in the position of power, and I felt like they, you know, wouldn't hurt me because I was so hurt within my family or so hurt you know, my mom or my dad, and so hurt with my career and I was just looking for security and safety and pleasure and all those things. And I stayed in an on again, off again relationship for a really, really long time because it was just so hard to step away from somebody who had no boundaries, had no conditions. I could mistreat them, I could step up, be with other people. I could you know, be unco I could be inconsistent, and I was you know that I don't want that, and I didn't want that for them, but they were going to continue to let me do that, and so something had to had to give, and I would say after that, I want to get off again dynamic. For a long time, I had to be like, I am so toxic. And it's not that I it's not that I can't have compassion for my younger self and understand where that came from, but I was really moving in very selfish, toxic ways and that's not how I want to live this one life that I have.

Starting therapy, starting journey definitely helped me to have more frameworks and more tools and just like more self awareness. I think I've always been introspective, but having a professional to bounce things off of and to you know, have her post questions to me and all that, and to be someone I really trusted with helping to guide me and influence me in a good way. I think that that she and she didn't she wasn't like you're a love addict or you're a sex addict. But it's like you don't discriminate with these things that you were using to make you numb out to. You know, you like to dissolve into somebody. You've chosen partners that are available to just serve your need for feeling good, like sex will be a big part of the relationship. They won't really have a lot. I mean when I was younger, like some of my partners didn't have a lot, a whole lot going on in their life, and I was like, I was the one in the position of power, and I felt like they, you know, wouldn't hurt me because I was so hurt within my family or so hurt you know, my mom or my dad, and so hurt with my career and I was just looking for security and safety and pleasure and all those things. And I stayed in an on again, off again relationship for a really, really long time because it was just so hard to step away from somebody who had no boundaries, had no conditions. I could mistreat them, I could step up, be with other people. I could you know, be unco I could be inconsistent, and I was you know that I don't want that, and I didn't want that for them, but they were going to continue to let me do that, and so something had to had to give, and I would say after that, I want to get off again dynamic. For a long time, I had to be like, I am so toxic. And it's not that I it's not that I can't have compassion for my younger self and understand where that came from, but I was really moving in very selfish, toxic ways and that's not how I want to live this one life that I have.

And that's hard. To get to a point where you can see that is really hard. And I imagine when you look at that version of yourself and then you look at where the young version of yourself was sort of you know, made the different sorts of toxicity in those dynamics, Like how do you say to yourself, Okay, I want to shift that, Like instead of leaning into this behavior that's destructive, I want to lean into this behavior that's constructive. Like how do you begin to rebuild up instead of to continue to spiral down.

And that's hard. To get to a point where you can see that is really hard. And I imagine when you look at that version of yourself and then you look at where the young version of yourself was sort of you know, made the different sorts of toxicity in those dynamics, Like how do you say to yourself, Okay, I want to shift that, Like instead of leaning into this behavior that's destructive, I want to lean into this behavior that's constructive. Like how do you begin to rebuild up instead of to continue to spiral down.

I think that starting a process of rebuilding self trust because it had been eroded in so many different ways. So even just checking in with how does it feel when I do this, or how does it feel when someone says this, or when I'm in this particular environment, or just like being more present as opposed to being under the influence of something, constantly being on xanax or constantly being high on weed or drinking something, or you know, being digmatized or whatever. You know what I mean, Like howbout you, I will say. I think after my dad passed away, he he lost his struggle with addiction and just with overall unhealthiness mind, body, spirit. That changed everything for me. And I was like, I'm no better than him. I'm no better or worse. Like I was judgmental, but I always held out hope that he would change and that we would have this amazing relationship. It would it would heal us both and you know, all this these things. And then I was like, oh, no one's like I I could die, like any time anybody can. No one's coming to save you. We I had I had adopted a perspective of like learned helplessness, that I was in this you know, that I was a victim of the industry, or I was like in you know, the people looked at people felt bad for me, and I like wore that scarlet letter and then I just you know, started acting bad in my I made poor choices as a result of the shame and the embarrassment and the and the difficulty some difficulties that I experienced, the deck of cards I had been dealt. But I was like, Okay, so what m hm and now what now what?

I think that starting a process of rebuilding self trust because it had been eroded in so many different ways. So even just checking in with how does it feel when I do this, or how does it feel when someone says this, or when I'm in this particular environment, or just like being more present as opposed to being under the influence of something, constantly being on xanax or constantly being high on weed or drinking something, or you know, being digmatized or whatever. You know what I mean, Like howbout you, I will say. I think after my dad passed away, he he lost his struggle with addiction and just with overall unhealthiness mind, body, spirit. That changed everything for me. And I was like, I'm no better than him. I'm no better or worse. Like I was judgmental, but I always held out hope that he would change and that we would have this amazing relationship. It would it would heal us both and you know, all this these things. And then I was like, oh, no one's like I I could die, like any time anybody can. No one's coming to save you. We I had I had adopted a perspective of like learned helplessness, that I was in this you know, that I was a victim of the industry, or I was like in you know, the people looked at people felt bad for me, and I like wore that scarlet letter and then I just you know, started acting bad in my I made poor choices as a result of the shame and the embarrassment and the and the difficulty some difficulties that I experienced, the deck of cards I had been dealt. But I was like, Okay, so what m hm and now what now what?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I don't want to die. I don't want to hurt others I had. It never got so bad for me. Like I think of how outspoken Demi's been with their story and you know, literally o ding and like looking at the edge of death and like peeking out. That was not my experience. But losing my father was a hinge point.

I don't want to die. I don't want to hurt others I had. It never got so bad for me. Like I think of how outspoken Demi's been with their story and you know, literally o ding and like looking at the edge of death and like peeking out. That was not my experience. But losing my father was a hinge point.

Yeah, And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I would imagine, you know, you're talking about Demi's experience, for example, But but a loss like that is also something that will bring you to the edge of an abyss, right, and you just have to say where do I go from here? And especially after you had so much of your life dictated for you and so many things controlled by people other than you, that's right to say, Like I don't know what it looks like but I know I have to take control back. That's a really profound moment of change in a life. Do you think that that knowing that there needed to be a shift is also what enabled you to begin to separate this persona of Jojo that's been out in the world from you, whole human Joanna.

Yeah, And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I would imagine, you know, you're talking about Demi's experience, for example, But but a loss like that is also something that will bring you to the edge of an abyss, right, and you just have to say where do I go from here? And especially after you had so much of your life dictated for you and so many things controlled by people other than you, that's right to say, Like I don't know what it looks like but I know I have to take control back. That's a really profound moment of change in a life. Do you think that that knowing that there needed to be a shift is also what enabled you to begin to separate this persona of Jojo that's been out in the world from you, whole human Joanna.

I think that when my dad passed, I mean, I've been I am a spiritual person. I grew up with the framework of Christianity, specifically Catholicism. I'm very and I grew up in the choir loft. And I think that in music for me and relating to my gift, feels very spiritual. Me and my dad had a spiritual connection through music, you know, harmonizing together and feeling empathic with each other and like just being really connected, feeling each other. And I think that when he passed, like since he passed, I continue to feel to feel him, I continue to feel connected to him, I continue to have conversations with him. I continued to see him, like sometimes physically, not like not like really really, but like sometimes a flash of him in the audience. Sometimes I look back, you know, in an airport, and I'm like, you know, just moments of moments of delight that take my breath away that I don't need to explain to anybody else because they need something to me. So I'm saying that to say that, I think that with connecting to my spiritual self more and with taking solo trips, I started to take solo trips. I realized how like stimulated I had been, and I was interested in silence. Like my dad this quote right here, the Disiderata, and it's a go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. That he always had that in his bathroom, whatever apartment he'd be in, he had this deep ass quote, you know, the whole desiderata. And I'm like, man, he was so deep. I'm like, you know what he told me. You loved the desert. I want to go to the desert. So I went to Sedona, which is another one of my you know, big meetingful dud and I just started to actually take the time to be alone and to be in silence, to listen more than I spoke, and to take myself off the hamster wheel of like well sort of, because I still haven't met many years of doing this and I'm still extricating myself from it in a sense, but I'm saying I became really aware that, like I was on other people's timelines and I was like, you have to do this, you have to put out this album. Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, whoa.