Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going today. On the podcast, I'm chatting with one of the kindest and most joyful humans that I happen to know, the talented, brilliant, and incredibly compassionate Constant Simmer. Constance is an actress, director, wife, a mother, and an all around creative individual. She's known for playing a number of standout characters and notable projects, including the role of Dana Gordon on HBOS critically acclaimed series Entourage, Janine on the Netflix Emmy nominated series House of Cards, Taylor on HBOS The Newsroom, and Quinn on Lifetime's drama series Unreal, which, aside from being one of My personal favorites, earned her a Critics Choice Award and a Primetime Emmy nomination. Constance has also been a standout on shows like Boston Legal, Grey's Anatomy, The New Adventures of Old Christine Seinfeld, Allen Marvel's Agents of Shield, and the list goes on. In addition to her successful acting career, Constance is a keen supporter of the Make a Wish Foundation, the NRDC, and have Her International, just to name a few. She's particularly involved in AIDS activism, including AIDS Project Los Angeles and the Elizabeth Glazer Pediatric AIDS Foundation. Outside of acting and directing, Constance also happens to be a creative maven and makes handmade jewelry, candles, and greeting cards. In our conversation today, we reminisced about how we met, discussed the intricacies of being in the public eye, and chat about Constance's childhood, her journey of becoming an actress, body image, fear, having a plan, be in life, and so much more. Enjoy I'm so excited that you're here. We just launched into such a good conversation the minute you walked in the door that I was like, oh my god, stop, we have to stop talking and we have to start recording. Isn't that kind of like what podcasts are now? It's like, if only I had a microphone in front of our faces right now, this would be the best conversation to share with people. It's pretty cool to be able to open thoughts and relationships and conversations in this way. I really love it. Yeah, and especially because you have incited that already in your daily life. So I would imagine that when people when you're like, hey, will you come on, it's like, well, yeah, we already do that. We already talk and we're already so open and honest and communicate so all. And so that's I mean, that's always how I felt about you. It's like fun. The first day I met you, it was just I felt like we just got right down into like talking about some nice, deep seated soul stuff. Yeah, I just love it. I'm so bad at small talk. I'm the worst at a party when people are like, so, I'm like, this is so strange. What do I do? Yeah, because it feels very surface. Yeah, I just don't. Yeah, I don't know how to do it. Yeah, I don't know how to do that, which is funny because you do it actually very well. But you do it well. If you give somebody like an hour, you don't want to give someone just five minutes and try and no, like the whole make an impression on that person. That's my nightmare. Yeah, there's nothing that like makes me shrivel up in like my little snail shell more. I'm like, no, God, I don't understand this. That's what I love is is the misperceptions that people put on everyone, and especially I think the is that are in the public eye. Is that there's always this like you should be used to making small talk. That's all you do. It's all you do is go to parties and meet people, and within two minutes you have to impress them. And you have to either impress them with the way you look, the way you talk, the job that you're doing or the jobs that you've done, or the it's never just about like a soul to soul conversation because nobody has time, you know, and so it's like instead it's all about like how they've seen you on social media or the roles you've played, and then they just think that that's what you are and you should be that at all times. It's a lot of pressure, it is. It's so weird. I and I think it's interesting too that there's this, And tell me if you find this. There's this sort of expectation that we're meant to be infallible, like you can never make a mistake, you can never say the wrong thing, don't ever screw up. But then also there's this other energy, you like, who the do you think you are? You're not perfect, you don't know anything, You're not smarter than me. And it's so weird because you're like, Okay, what do you want me to be? Am? I like what is it? And it struck me recently and it's funny. I'm just realizing. I'm like, oh, I carried that with me for the last two weeks, didn't I? I was. I was obviously tweeting about politics chalker and somebody said something, and so I was looking through these replies because I like to sort of see am I being clear? Am I making my point? Is this resonating? Are there people I want to have a conversation with about this or just kind of let it live? And you know, it's such a weird thing when you can be tagged in a conversation that other people are having. It's like I don't always want that. I don't want to know. I don't want it. And this girl was talking about the podcast and I was like, oh, that's so nice, and I went to reply to her, and when I did that, it opened the whole thread of her conversation and and some other person was like, yeah, I used to be a fan of hers, but like, I got into a debate with her on Twitter years ago and she's a fucking hypocrite and like, I'm out, and I remembered this person. I remember that I was just like trying to explain how I felt about something and she was one of those people who couldn't be pleased and was like, well, you once said this, and you once said that, and if you believe these things, then you're a hypocrite if you also believe this, And I'm like, no, I'm just a person who is an opinion and I believe those things to be true, and I also have an issue with this, and if you're trying to make them the same thing, I don't. I don't know how to please you. Well you can't. I mean that's the thing to write. You can't please everybody, You truly can't. But it's such a weird thing because then people will do the thing where they say like, well, you can't take that personally. You're supposed to have a thick skin. You live in the public eye, and it's like, no, I'm just a person. And it sucks to have people make assumptions and and say weird shipped to me and and assume they're allowed or entitled to say weird shipped to me because they project the reality of my life in their mind rather than the reality of what my life actually is. Right, well, it's so weird. That's that whole way you're talking about, and it is the whole misperception of who we all are. Like just how you don't even know who that person is, but they have affected you in a way that they don't even know that they affect you, because a lot of times those people don't think you read the comments or you read the replies, and they're just spouting and then all of a sudden, when it's actually the person they're spouting about, it becomes like, oh, well wait, hold on a second, I didn't know that you were going to be affected by me. And it's like, this is my point. We're human beings, and yes we are in the public eye, so yes we are using our platform trying to do it for good the way that we perceive what we would like to put out there. And yeah, everybody thinks that we can't be hurt, but do you think you They think you can withstand a lot of punches. And it's like, but I'm not a punching bag, right, And then they're like, well, if you don't want to be if you don't want to be judged for what you're putting out there, then don't put anything out there, right. That's the That's the other thing I get, Like my first when I first joined Twitter, and I only joined it like maybe six years ago because we had to join Twitter for House of Cards because nobody knew what Netflix was, and so Netflix was like, you, it's up to you guys as the actors on the show to talk about this streaming concept when we didn't even understand what it was. How crazy is that that you can say today nobody knew what Netflix was. Yeah, and I think it is like seven years ago, right, I mean I feel like that feels right because that's when House of Cards started. But yeah, and we didn't know what. We didn't even know. I couldn't. Everybody was like, what do you mean You're not going to get a DVD to watch it? And I said no, and they're like, can you watch it on a plane? I said, I don't think so. I mean, it's streaming. You have to have a connection. I mean I didn't. We didn't understand any of it. So if you can imagine, then I go on Twitter and I didn't even I was so not I'm still not very good at it because of all of things we're talking about, is I cannot figure out the common ground, right, because you can't please everybody but the first right, But the first fight I got into with somebody on Twitter was about this exact thing, which is there was somebody that was following uh, somebody had started a Janine Scoresky Twitter account. Okay, so it was like I was actually like a White House correspondent, which I thought was really cool, had started an account in my character's name and was kind of talking like the character, but you know, knew all had all the real political background to be able to express, you know, what she thought my character would be saying. And there was this guy, Yeah, it's so we it's a tricky ster. He's so uncomfortable, right, So there was this guy who was following her, following Janine, the fake Janine. And then I was talking back and forth with the person playing the fake Janine, and I said to the guy, he made a comment to me about this is not your this is not your place, and I said, you know, this is so interesting to me because you would rather follow and and be influenced by somebody who is pretending to be this character, rather than talk to the person who actually plays the character and who sits with the writers and who understands the concept of the show and who's doing all of the research and why. And he said, see, this is a problem with all your actors. You're so narcissistic. You think it's all about you. What if I just want to follow the character and not the actor that plays the character? And I said, okay, but I I was so, I was like, but this person isn't the character. If it was the writer of the show running Twitter accounts for all your characters, that would make sense to me. Yeah, but it's not. It's just no, it's just a random human. I know. That was the thing that I and I was so but I was honestly confused by it. And I was really just trying to explain your logic to me. I'm trying to figure out where you're coming from, right, And and somebody reads that as like explain yourself, and you're like, but that's not what I said. And I was honestly just trying to have a conversation. I wasn't even upset about it. I was curious. And then everybody got involved, and the poor girl who started the account, she was like, I'm so sorry, I'll take it down. I didn't realize it was going to be so controversial. And I said, it's not controversial. I'm just asking a question, you know. And that was what was so crazy about it. Is again, you can't even just be curious. You get attacked for being curious, and and tech is so dangerous in that way. I love podcasting because we can have a conversation. People can hear that we're exploring something, trying to figure out how we feel about something. But people read your words in text as they are, never as you mean them, and so the same sentence can read to one person as an attack and to another person as a question. And god, I've gotten so sick of that. It's like, it's just it's really hard to be on the receiving end of it all the time, which is why we like doing this. When you can actually talk, it's like a balsartle thing. And look at this, Like two minutes in, we're like, let's talk about how it feels to communicate with people you don't know. Um Hi, I usually start with the question about the past, but we just I like getting a little tangentle with you. But I do wanna, I do want to run listeners through some of what I'm sure they're very curious about. Do you remember when we met, I mean the first time ago because it probably was I'm not going to remember exactly. We met like at something, and then we have friends in common and we all got together actually at my place and we sat on the floor in a deep conversation and I was like, oh my god, I love her because you had no furniture in there yet. Yeah. No, it was like I had just gotten into space and I think there was a couch. Wait. I do remember now though, Was it at the White House? Correspondence to that was not the first time we met though in Washington. That was like the first time we all kind of chilled and hung out and went, oh my god, we're also alike. And it was with a Zita and Jed and Diah, Carla and Jed. I mean it was yeah, Katie, Katie, Oh my god, who wound up in our text threat and was like, how did I end up in this text message? Change? It was so great. She was like, guys, you're all so nice, but why am I here? Yeah, like, oh my god, Katie, were so sorry. Um, and the full circle of that that you know, now she's been on the podcast and we've become very friendly, and I was like, do you remember that time we all put you in a group text? And she was like, I didn't know how to use I don't know what was going on. I love. That was really like one of the greatest nights and experiences in Washington I think that I had had because we all had hope. Yeah. Well, but also there were so many there were so many strong women in one room that all everybody wanted was to help and support each other and check in with each other and say, how are you doing, what are you doing, what do you need to do, what would you like to do? And it was in this fully surreal world, you know, with the like Nancy Pelosi and Katie Kuric and people wandering around you, and then they would just come and sit with us, and it was I mean, it was really magical. So yeah, that is that's when we like first like because we had no need men each other. Obviously in the circuit this crazy circuit, but then hanging out in your house and then and then ever since then, we've tried to get together, I know, and we're always working in different places. That's one of the things I think people don't realize either, because they do think we all just hang out at parties all the time, and I'm like, we go to not very many of those because we're always in some farf one place. Yeah, traveling always. Why was still because you were doing unreal So you're so good on that. That's very nice of you. It's not just very nice to me, Like when you win a Peabody Award, it's like you're obviously doing something right. That was crazy because one I didn't realize television shows could win Peabodies who knew I didn't know. Yeah, I will never forget that call. When we all got the call. We were in Vancouver and and I think it was our producers kind of got us all in a room and they were like, we got a Peabody award and all of us said what why, Like I don't understand, and uh, yeah, that was really that was really cool. I think those like fun surprises on a show that we really just didn't even know if people we're going to watch it or care about it. To get that those kinds of accolades for it was really kind of phenomenal. It's so cool. Yeah, because it wasn't expected. Everybody was like a Lifetime show. I'm sure that's crap. Oh my god, yeah, okay, I want to go back. I always think about how, as we've been discussing other versions of this, people meet us where we are, right And so people listening to you today know you from the amazing shows that you've done and the work that you do. And and I always like to ask people, were you a version of yourself when you were a kid, or were you like a completely different child? You know what? What was your life growing up? You know, it's interesting because I didn't know that I wanted to be an actor. I didn't figure it out until I was a senior in high school. So literally same. Really, that's so crazy because it's not normal. I think a lot of people like, who thinks they could do this for a living? No, I know exactly well, And by the way, I didn't even think I could do it for a living. Wasn't even thinking about that. Was just thinking like, oh, I know what I like to do through doing like ten other things and not liking those things, but picking one thing out of all of those things that then all culminated into being an actor. It was weird because my mom was a child star. So this is crazy. So my mother was on radio. She was a child star on the radio before there was television's as a little girl in Germany. And when the talkies came, when you got to watch television, Uh, they took the radio program and they turned it into it was like I leave It to Beaver, but it was in Germany and it was black and white, and well leave It to Beaver was black and white. But and what happened was she was getting recognized on the street as a little girl and her mom, my grandmother, did not like it, was not okay with it, so took her off the show and that ended her acting career. And so I think be because of that, my mom didn't necessarily want to push me in one direction or another. She just said, I'm just gonna let you figure it out and see what happens. And so I kind of tried everything. I mean, I was I was a gymnast training for the Olympics when I was how old was I like fourth grade, fourth fifth grade, and I was like advanced to uh, you know, eighteen hours of gymnastics training a day. I would I would eat breakfast, go to the gym, go to school, go back to the gym, go have dinner, and then I think I was allowed to go to sleep. But yeah, it was intense. I had no life. And you know, now having a daughter and seeing it's crazy to imagine that that's what I was doing at that age. But I said to my mom one day, I was like, I don't this is too much. I missed my friend and so I want to hang out with people, and so she said, okay, you know, and then the next thing was, you know, continuing gymnastics, and then I ran track and then I did the high jump and then I mean I was doing everything that I thought I was. It was all in front of an audience. But I hated wearing shorts, and I hated wearing leotards, and I hated all this like skimpy outfits, and I hated working out. So I was like, how can I be an athlete if I hate all the things that you're supposed to do. And then I was you know, I gotten to dance, and I gotten to singing, and I did all that stuff, and then I tried out to be a cheerleader because all my friends I was a senior in high school, and all my friends wanted to be cheerleaders, and so I tried out to be a song girl, you know, which are the ones that do the halftime shows. And I my friend had to come to my house and drag me out of the house because I didn't want to try. I didn't want to wear shorts in front of the school. I was so self conscious of my body and my I just I thought I was fat. You know, it's so sad when you look back on it and you read my journals. But um, I didn't want to wear dolphin shorts. And my friend came to my house and dragged They dragged me out of the house and they threw me up on the stage and I remember just drying out and like holding back tears, and the people from students from school being in the auditorium and I was just like it was heartbreaking. And then I got in and then I had to wear these little short, little skirts, you know, to perform in and it was so traumatic. But where do you think that came from like where for you personally, because I think every teenage girl struggles with her body in one way or another. Do you know now as this sort of you know, wise woman, do you know where the root of that? You know? I wish I did. I wish I knew, because I don't think even you know, at at my age, i've I mean, I think now I've at least just come to terms with like, this is my physique. This is what it's always going to look like, and it's not gonna be altered. So just be really happy and grateful for what you have. And I think at that young of age, when you're going through so much the dope amins in your brain and the hormones and the your body's changing. And I got like big boobs and that was like I didn't even know what to do with them because I was so petite and I just felt, you know, all my friends were so little and thin, and I had these like boobs, and I had like a figure like I was a much more womanly figure than like a little girl, and it's it was all my own stuff. It's just was all just I think, insecure teenage stuff that I think you have to kind of go through. I mean, it's hard because I had an older sister who struggled with the same stuff, and we were raised by our mom for the most part, as our parents divorced when we were very young. But so it wasn't that I didn't have a lot of positive female role models. I just think it was kind of normal. I was just insecure. I think we're all insecure. It's sad, and it's a lot of times. I don't know what gets rid of it, or if it's just there all the time to keep you humble. I don't know. You know, I still struggle with it. I'm I'm so insecure. It's crazy that I have made a living playing incredibly confident, unfiltered, brash characters because it's not really who I am like at all. It's like crazy. So, just to wrap it up, even though it is a long explanation, um was they were doing Reese the senior year of my high school and I was already a cheerleader, so I said, oh, I want I want to go audition for a play. All audition for the cheerleader for Patty Simcox because it was doing cart wheels and you know, back can springs and like all that kind of stuff on stage. So I was like, oh, I could do this and like singing, and so I auditioned for pay sim Cox and I got it. And then once I did that play, I mean that was it. Yeah, and then I did Peter Pan. After that, I didn't play Peter. I played Tiger Lily, which is like the you know, the princess of the Indians, right, but yeah, and then that was it. And then I and then I had all come together. It all made sense, and then from there on out, I thought, oh I got this. You know. Of course, the only schools that I applied to were n YU and Juilliard because I was like, I'm so good. I'm really good. I even need an audition. You don't just want me because I'm here. I mean, that's the other really interesting thing. So insecure. But then was okay with going to Juilliard and not being prepared with a comedy monologue and a drama monologue. So what did you do for your audition? I made it up as I went. I mean, I honestly think back and I'm like, what was my was my mom? Like my mom? I think I I think I prepared a drama monologue, but not a comedy one. I think that's what it was. I didn't have to And the comedy one I ended up doing on the fly because I was such so obsessed with Lily Tomlin's book Search for Intelligent Signs of Life in the Universe, right, I think that's what it's called UM. And she has this amazing monologue about standing on the corner of walk and don't walk. And I don't know why. I just I knew it because I had read it so much. I just kind of did it stumbled through. They're like, thank you very much, goodbye, you get in. No, it would be great if I did, that would be a great story, But no I didn't. So then what did you Where did you go? What did you do? I went to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in Pasadena. Dramatic. It was very dramatic. Yeah, where it's like the Fame School. I did love it because it was everything I wanted to do. You know. It was like they teach you dance and Shakespeare and singing and scene study and you know all that stuff. So no, I loved it. I loved it. But yeah, it's just it is. I didn't get asked back. You know, you have to get an asked back at that school. And I remember I have the letter, like the rejection letter after I went there for a year and I didn't get asked back. It's like in a folder and I wrote on it whatever, and I told all my ends. I was like, I know why. The people that don't get asked back are the people that they know are going to make it out there, so they don't want to hold them back in a school for another year. I mean, what's that going to do for you? They're like, you're ready go out into the world and make it happen. So I took a rejection and turned it around and kind of used it as oh, they I'm ready, let's go, let's do this. Yeah, it's just it's that's very all That stuff makes me laugh when I look back on it now. But I think when you when you know something of yourself, even despight insecurity, because we all are racked with that, right, I think you just are unwilling to give up. Yeah. Well, I was told very early on, don't ever have a plan B, because you'll end up doing your plan B if you have something to fall back on you will fall back on it. So I told myself, like, this is it, this is all I've got, and I have to make it work. And you know that's scary, especially in this business. It's I can't even I mean, I every night I go to bed and I'm like, how, I don't know how I got here. I don't know how I did this? How did I do this? Because there was that thing in you that knew obviously, yeah, But then like being riddled with so much insecurity, it's just fascinating in a business that really kind of feeds that. Oh god, I mean, it's the worst, it's just the worst. But I think I feel like every good artist that I know is morbidly insecure. And I think that the insecurity is this sort of like terribly metastasized sensitivity, because at least for me, I'm so hyper sensitive to the world around me, to how people are feeling, what's going on, how they're being treated, And that sensitivity to others is what makes me good at my job, because I know how to read a room. I know how to figure out when we're doing a scene, what you're saying to me under the words that you're saying. I I know what I'm saying to you under the dialogue that I'm speaking. It's about feelings. You know. People have asked me like, oh god, when you had to do that scene and like just lose it, Like what do you think about to make yourself cry like that? And I'm like, no, I have to get upset, like there's no trick. I don't have like a hold my eyes open and then tears start falling out of my face. I don't have that. I had a coworker who had that, and I would look at her and I was like, you lucky bitch. I can't believe you could just do that, you know, But I so, I think, And maybe it's just how I rationalize my own insecurity. It's how I like live with that sort of demon on my back. But I feel like it comes from being so sensitive that, you know, I'm always a little bit like, am I in the way, what's going on? Is this okay? And I don't know. I'm the same if you if you didn't have that and and you had that assuredness about your job, then you probably would be an actual narcissist like that weirdo on Twitter accuse you being Yeah, it's like, listen, I can't be a narcissist. There's nobody who ships on me more than me, So like you need to sit down, sir. It is interesting though, right, I mean, actors are are always across the board called narcissists because we they're always like, you're just thinking about yourself. And here's the thing, we're not just thinking about ourselves. We can't because otherwise we wouldn't be able to emote, and it wouldn't be emotions that everybody could relate to if it was all about us. Now, the difference is that the world makes it all about us more than more than what we do, because you know, where the faces on the billboard were the people that go on the talk shows and have to sell the show or the movie or the project, and it doesn't it doesn't mean that we're putting ourselves in that boat. I mean, I would love nothing more than to just let a project come out and just let it see if people like it, you know, as opposed to always having to put a face with it that sells it, that gets people to go. It's like, right, So I don't know. I mean, look, I think everybody as it has to think about themselves. I mean, everybody has to think about themselves otherwise, you know what I mean, You're not what do you why do you wake up in the morning, But you're right there. There's a there's a team aspect that is our existence that the world doesn't see, you know, Like I rally for my crew. That is my greatest joy on set, and people who watch whatever we make, they don't see the crew. They don't know about all the camera guys. They don't know about the department heads, they don't know about the construction teams with the transpo drivers, like you know. I always find it interesting when people get angry at us for being political, and especially when I talk about healthcare. A lot of people have been like, what do you know about like what health care looks like. I'm like, first of all, I have healthcare because I have a union, So whatever you think, that's why. And second of all, I want to make sure that the union guys who work in the camera department and the construction department and the transport department also have health care. I want to make sure your kid has health care, you know it. I think the sort of disparate nature of what the public press looks like versus the daily practice of making a story causes some of that. Yeah, well, and I also think you know, I've been directing, and when you step outside of what you actually do as your career, and this is I think true to everybody, no matter what they do. If you go and you take another job inside of what you do, so you can work in an office and say I'm going to go and one day just be behind my president and see what my president does every day in my job or whatever whatever you want to call it, because it changes your perspective of your responsibility and how you are a part of the team. And a lot of people don't know that until they step out of it and step behind it. And you know, look, we've been on sets for years and I was like, no, I get it. I know. I know we are not in this alone. This is would not happen. This couldn't get made if this one person didn't show up, right, And I think like all actors should go and you know, shadow a director, shadow, a producer, shadow, and executive shadow, somebody within your space to see how important every piece of the puzzle is. And you know, because I do think that we forget and I think everybody out in the world forgets because everybody, we all get in our habits, were all like, this is my job, this is my part, but no, we all play a part in so many other things. And I like doing that because it just reminds me how important everybody's places, no matter what they do. And I think about that as kind of a that's a micro cosm example of the macro cosm of society, right like if we took more time to look at what everyone's doing, what are city workers doing and postal workers doing, and what's happening in you know, the county courts, and what's going on at the coffee shop on the corner. It's so important that we look at and honor everybody's role in this because we're building something collectively, and I think we can forget and and out there in the world. We can think, what's happening to me in the world, what's going on for me? And it is really important to kind of step into other arenas, put yourself in other people's shoes. And when I'm thinking from that place, I can feel it in the way I operate in the world around me. And so that becomes a goal to try to think about that more often. And and it's interesting when relating it back to set my first show, when I was doing One Tree Hill, we were in North Carolina for nine years, and like that is a small place. We were trapped together, you know. And one of the ways that I really found continued investment for me as a creative and that job was to be more and more behind the scenes. So to shadow my great producing director and executive producer on the show, Greg Pray and who I just love to be in his office, to listen to notes calls, to go down to the prop department and talk to them like what are your budget look like? And how do you figure things out? And what about the guys in set deck, and you know, to go visit construction and and to really you know, take my days off and go on tech scouts. And so then when I started directing on the show in the last couple of seasons, I felt so ready and being a director in a way completely reinvested me in what I was doing on the show. It made me love my job as an actor so much more. It made it all feel so important again, you know, And when you've done something for I don't know, seven years, You're like, yeah, it's like my job, and everything becomes relative. And it's cool that moving yourself around, like you said, and being behind other people while they do their jobs can do that. I love that. I really I didn't know I was going to love it so much. And I was shadowing a lot, a couple of actors that we had turned directors, and and then they kept saying, I'm and to just give you one note of advice, which is you're either going to love this and you're going to want to do it more than acting, or you're going to hate it, like there's no gray area, because it is. It's a certain mindset, you know. And I of course loved it, and now you know, I'm struggling with trying to figure out how to do both right because acting is my bread and butter. Directing. I got to start at the bottom and I got to work my way up. And you know, I can't make a living doing it, but I can hopefully try and put it in there until I can. You know, you know, you gotta work your way up to a better paycheck for that. But I'm just glad that the doors are open. You know, the doors weren't that open before, so it's that's kind of exciting. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah. I just I helped a friend tape for a show that is so amazing recently, and he's not an actor, but it happens to be one of my favorite shows. And weirdly, he was asked two He's in another creative industry and was asked to read for a role and like called me. I was like, what is acting? How? What is it? I don't understand? And I was like, come over. And we spent two days like prepping and working, and I like, I did just I did all these weird exercises with him and ran him through all these options and showed him all these things, and like played improv games with him, and and we put all this stuff on tape over the course of two days. Because I also know the psychological pressure of what that feels like, because obviously I'm a selfloathing creative person and auditioning for anything is my nightmare. Which is ironic because I've like ten thousand hours. I'm like, I've done that eight times over, yet here I am being like, what if it never works? What if I forgot how to do it? And so we taped him for this unbelievable show and the producers called like raving and he was like, you're such a good director, and I was like, I know, I kind of forgot. I've been so busy doing other things that I haven't directed in a while, and I was like, I should maybe do that again too. I know. It's just so fun. Love to tell stories, I know, and I love crafting performances. I mean, that's the thing to you that I'm noticing that has been a little kind of disheartening about shadowing directors that that aren't actors, which obviously that's the majority of the directors. There's there's a smaller percentage of actors that turned to directing. But is that we know all the things that we wish that directors would say to us too, for us to give the performance that they want, and knowing that already going in, you already have that leg up. You know. It's just like all directors, they say, should go to an acting class so they understand the plight of the actor, which is super complicated. We're all complicated. We're all sucked up in in our own beautiful ways. And because I think every human is sucked up we all are humans, are sucked up and complicated and confused, but we put our ship on display, whereas most people have been trained to hide it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a special it's a special specie. And so you realize, Oh, as an actor who's a director, you already have like a main line in to the performers, you know. And and I didn't even really think about that until I just started seeing more directors that were like afraid to talk to actors, you know, or like afraid to approach them ors. It's going to be too demeaning, Or should I be more honest? Or should I beat around the bush or should I And I was like, look, you got to tell these actors what you want. That's our job is you tell us what you want and we will do it. But if you do not tell us and you beat around the bush, and you're like, maybe possibly could have been you know, we're gonna give you that, sure, you know. But then there's directors that are like, oh, you know, I don't want to give a line reading. I'm like, you don't have to give a line reading? Like it was funny that I became like, you know, kind of the exact, So um had that to your resume. You're like communication strategists exactly. Oh my god, which is weird because I talk and run on sentences and not the not the best. I forget my words all the time. I think I'm in like a weird pre menopausal hormone stage, which is not affecting me. Like you hear these stories of like hot flashes and all that kind of stuff, but no one ever talks about that. Apparently your brain starts to get foggy when you're pre menoposal. You start forgetting words. You start like to the point where I was like, do I have early onset dementia because I don't remember words? And I was talking to my sister about it. It It was a couple of years older than me, and she was like, do you want her to the truth? I said, yes, you're like, just tell me my brain is not broken. Yeah, she said, it's a it's a very early indication of pre menopausal stuff, like your hormones are affecting your brain waves, which is And I was like, you know, can we ever get a break as women for I mean, my god, Ah, that's wild. Okay, wait, so we're in the trenches obviously of where we are storytellers now. But how do we go from you doing Greece as your senior year high school play and you were in l A right, Yeah, because I grew up in Newport Beach, Okay, which is weird. I mean I was, I didn't. Why is it weird? Because I'm so not an Orange County person, You're really, I mean, everybody thinks I'm from the East Coast. So born in Seattle, but was here as I was from five until I mean from five on, I've been in California and so, but sixth grade of twelfth grade was Newport Beach, was Orange County, and so then I went to the American Academy, which was Pasadena. Stayed here. I have always been here. And and when you took your rejection as a sign of your readiness and prowess, clearly, where did you go? What happened? Then I went and I did the like find your agent by paying money for a commercial workshop, you know, I did that thing, and then I got a commercial agent. And then I went and studied with Stella Adler. Yes, and that was I studied with her until she then she died, and then stayed I had my teacher, which was you know, because Stella at that time was doing masterclasses where you could go and just take like a six week course with her because she still lived in New York and so she would come back and forth. But that was cool. Looking back on that, is there something that stands out to you that you learned from her, like, like, how did that experience shape you as a storyteller? Well, I think it's weird because she broke people very easily, like very easily, And to watch her break people was the almost the big biggest lesson again again watching it as an outsider, right, not being on the stage being broken by her, you can't see it. So I learned more watching her coach actors and they would come and they would do scenes in front of her and then she would break it down and I'll never forget her breaking this actress. And she said to her, She's like, you're never going to make it. This is not for you. You're not strong enough. You don't hold your own ground. You're constantly looking for support or outside. Yeah, you know, like you're you're not you don't have it from within, and until you find it from within, you are not going to be a good actor. And I mean she just tears, tears, tears, and she was like, in the crying, it's not gonna help you either. I mean, she was so direct and so honest, but she wasn't mean. This is what was so weird. She was really trying to help this girl. And it was right then that I thought, I gotta, I need to just get some balls, like I gotta just understand that I've gotten this far for a reason, or I have to believe that, and I gotta I have to own it. I gotta just figure that out. So it was really weird because I learned the biggest lesson from her kind of breaking down somebody else, not breaking down me. But then when you talk about how you've got to find it from within, Yeah, where does that come from? It's a very good question, because I lose it a lot, you know. I think that I found that when you connect with the thing in yourself that you're most afraid of is when you are the most grounded. Because we're constantly running from what scares us, right, It's that what's called the amygdala, amygdala part of your brain, which is the fight or flight, and somebody scares us, we'd run but if you know, like, Okay, I'm insecure about X, Y and Z, I need to fight that and be in it, because no matter how strong you can appear or pretend to be, that insecurity is there, and it keeps you, I guess, relatable, It keeps you soft. And so I always knew because I was I've always been about entertaining people and making people laugh. And but I think, like the first time that I made somebody cry, it made me cry because I thought, oh, I just was being honest. I was just being open. I wasn't hiding from the thing I'm so afraid of. And and I don't know. I mean, I still have to talk to myself about all that stuff all the time. But I think when you're in acting school, you can work through it because you can work on your scenes, you can get better at it. You can go home and go, wow, that I was acting and I was pretending and and and getting to dive into other characters and use whatever your little quirks are as bonuses and go, oh, that's what makes me unique, because we're all different. But then I would lose it, and my acting teacher would say, you have to stop. You're constantly trying to you more, and you know, he said, you are enough, and the day that you understand that you are enough is the day you are going to start working as an actor. But if you keep putting all this other shit on top of who you already are, naturally, it's it's not never going to come across as real. And I was like, what, I don't understand. Excuse me? Yeah, I was like, how how am I enough? I'm not enough? I need more, I need this, I need sparkles, I need glitter, I need you know. But that was the same that was still at still Adler, but that was with my coach, Arthur Mendoza, and but that was that was the doozy and that was what I think then brought it all home. Yeah, that's so cool. But then you can go fifteen years down the road, have a career and think that your career is over in your five minutes are done. And so I remember reading an interview two years ago that Harrison Ford gave talking about that, and he said that every time he finishes a job, he's convinced he's never going to get another one. And I was like, wow, Harrison Ford star Wars. I thinks he's never gonna work again. I guess I'm just gonna have to get used to this. You know. Well, look, I mean we all knew that coming in, right, I mean, you were fortunate that you were on a show, you know, for nine years, and then you're like, wow, this is great. We didn't you know. Now those shows don't really exist as much anymore. They're not doing ten years of shows anymore. I mean, Gray's anatomy, yes, but that's an anomaly and shameless, you know. But I don't know that we're going to have that anymore. I think we're gonna do three years, four years. I think that everybody has seen, oh I can go and do play a character for three or four years and then leave and then go play another character. But I think even then you knew that once that job was over, you'd have to go and find another job. Everybody thinks that we're just like handed jobs. I'm like, no, uh, we we had to work for everything. We did, work for start over every single time. It's not like most careers where you you move up a ladder and then you stay there. It doesn't work like that, right, because sometimes you go down. It's always ground zero here yeah, but we love it. I know it's the thrill. It's the I hope, I hope it's the thrill. So what what was your first on screen role? How did it happen? Let's see first, like first ever, like not like p s A for Nancy Reagan, because I did that, So let's see first. Well, because the first thing I did on screen that I got taft heartedly for I was cut out of. So I don't know if I don't know if it if it counts. I mean I saw the credit. You could still hear my voice, but you didn't seem my face. And yet that's what I was taffed heartley for, which I find so funny. And for those of you that don't know what taff hearty is, it's if you're not in the union, and the production says, we have to have this person. This person is the only person that can play this part. We will taft heartly them, which means they will bring you into the union for playing that part. And then I was cut out so I was so important. And then I think that was called The Day my Parents Ran Away, which was great. But what was the first thing I was seen in such a good isn't it crazy that you forget? It might have been the Jenny McCarthy show. Jenny McCarthy had a sitcom that was kind of like a modern day want to be Laverna Shirtley, and I did that show because then that started a whole incredible tumbleweed effect. I then I went and I did Ellen when Ellen had a sitcom What a Dream, And that was when I met Jeremy Piven for the first time. And then I got on Seinfeld. I mean it was crazy. It was just this like, all of a sudden, it just it was just Yeah, it was like that ball rolling down the hill, right. And then were you because you were doing spots on these shows, were you just going to auditions all the time? Like what was what was your life? Oh? It was crazy auditioning all the time, you know, co star parts which were just like one line. Uh. And then I remember I had like so many one line parts that all of a sudden, my agents were like, Okay, no more co stars. You're not allowed to audition for co stars anymore. Now you auditioned for guest stars. And I was so terrified. I was like, how am I going to get more than one line? I mean that's that's I don't know, I don't know what is that? Yeah, And then of course your pool gets smaller, right because there's not as many guest stars. And then I started doing guest stars, and then guest stars turning started turning into arcs. I I have been very fortunate in my career. My journey is that I'd get cast as a guest star, and then it would get turned into more than one episode. It would become three or five or whatever. Like Entourage was three episodes and I ended up on the show for six years. Oh my god, that's so cool. And uh so that was fun. But you know, it's you start making your pool smaller and smaller, right, because then you go can't do guest stars. Now I can only do arcs yeh oh yeah, And it becomes a thing like it's so funny to think about it because in the early days of my career it would have been so exciting. And by the way, I have fun no matter when I go to set. But it's like I just did a guest star on a show as a favor to a producer who's a friend, and they were like, please come do this for us. It's one episode, Like we promise we'll shoot you out as quickly as we can. It's gonna be so fun. We like we want we're we're doing this thing. We want the audience to think this character is staying forever, and like, no one will think you're doing one episode of a show. And I was like, cud, isn't that so crazy? Like when I was when I was busting my ass going to three auditions a day for pilot season during college, I would have killed to do an episode of TV. And here I am with like a producer who I love and respecting, Like no one would think you would do that. And I was like, this is so crazy again. It goes all the way back to the beginning of our it's all about you know, it's so wild. Everybody presumes and you know, and I was like, of course I want to come play on your side. It'll be so fun, you know, Like what am I doing next Tuesday? Yeah? Well, And lot's the other thing to like, how great that we can be in a position where you're helping them more than they're helping you when it's always was the opposite. It's been it's always the opposite. You start, Yeah, it's so cool. I I remember getting pages on my pager from my agent and having to find a pay phone and making sure I had quarter and dimes too, and then having my pad of paper and writing it down and then checking the coordinates and my Thomas Guide, and it shows you how ancient I am, but getting my Thomas Guide, finding the coordinates, trying to figure out when I was going to have to leave in order to get there on time. And you know, before GPS, I was early to everything. GPS has made us all so lazy because we believe what it says when it says like, oh, forty seven minutes, great, great, an hour and fifteen minutes later, I'm still in the car, right. And also, if you're like me and you think you can always beat ways these ways is like forty seven minutes, I'm like, bitch, please, I can get there in forty And then you're in the car and you're like, oh god, oh god, oh god. Exactly. Yeah. Wait, So what was it like to be on Entourage for six years? Because that was one of those shows that was so iconic in its timing and yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think I can talk about the story because Doug Allen the creator knows the whole story. But so when I auditioned, I auditioned in the second season, so the show had already been on for a year and I had seen it and I didn't like it, and I thought it was incredibly very male chauvinistic. I thought that all the women were nude, nobody was smart, and why would I want to be on a show like that? And when the audition came in, I actually didn't. I said no, and I didn't want to go on it, and my agents actually forced me. They said, here's the thing, We're not going to let you say no because this show is going to be like a cult hit. They're going to fix the issues with the women and the men, and you know, HBO has been very vocal about saying that they would like to have some stronger female characters present. And you know, it's three episodes. It's not what's like, it's not a big deal. It's three episodes, and you'll be a part of something that I really truly can tell you is going to be a cult classic. And I was like, ah, fine. So I went in and it was me and Connie Britain, who I had already known at the time because her and I did fighting Fitzgerald's together and her and I were both sitting there on the couch in the waiting room opposite all of these girls in like real tight dresses and a lot of makeup and boobs out. I mean, I was just like, this is I don't know what this world is. I don't like it. I'm very uncomfortable and what am I going to do? Yeah, and we both I was like, I really don't want I really don't want this part, and she said I know, I don't. I don't really understand it either, and I was like, all right, well, you know, here goes nothing. And I, you know, I went to the room and I think it was very obvious that I didn't care and I can now look back on it. And I did ask Doug too. I was like, I can't believe I got this part. And he's like, because you came in and you didn't give a ship, You weren't desperate, you didn't want the part, and we knew it, and that frustrated us, like why doesn't she why is she acting like she doesn't want this part? So that was Dana. I mean, that is really what Dana became Dana became this woman that was like, I don't give a ship about you or this or that or whatever. And so it does make me laugh that I got it based on the fact that I was like, this is the farthest thing from where I fit. And you know, I started did three episodes, and then three episodes turned into a couple more in that same season, and then they brought me back the next season and the next season and the next season. And it's funny because you know, I was never a regular and everybody thinks I was a regular on that show, but no, I was just a recurring guest star. And yeah, for six years, I did like a total of eighteen episodes, so I did like one season. If you gather all my episodes together, it's like enough of one season of the show that was spread out over six years. Yeah, but it was fun. I mean, when I was there, it was an amazing set, considering it was so male heavy that I think when I was there, I was given so much respect and everybody was like, oh, you know, it became very much like Dana Gordon's here, like you guys watch your ps and qs, you know, And because I had known Jeremy for so long. We already had this like inherent chemistry because I'd known him since Ellen, and it was I loved it so much. They kind of became like my boys. They were my boys, and you know, and when Carla was on and it was the women that then came to be a part of that show became so important because we were all so strong in our own ways. You know, Perry was her strengths, and Emmanuel and Carla and me and Autumn also and if so when you came on the set, it was just it was different. It was great, and I love those guys and they were amazing to me. And it's like, obviously is the part that I think has now set me forward and all the parts I've played since so I owe so much to now Doug and Entourage and Dana Gordon. It's crazy that that's the role that has now shaped the rest of my career. That's because you never know. And when you think about to your point, the strong women you've gotten to play, these like ballsy, brash, amazing women. When you played Claire on Boston Legal, was was it crazy too prep for her with with legal jargon and all the other sort of specifics that are required because I think about legal shows, medical shows, even cops shows, how how the jargon is so intense one especially with David Kelly, because David Kelly, you can't. You gotta mind your p's and ques, and God wanted Dream to work for him. Yeah, you have to do your a's and your ants and your does and Aaron Sorkins the same way, and it makes it a little bit more stressful because you know, as actors, you like to feel like you can be a little loose and have a little bit of improv and change a word here and there. But yeah, you can't, not with the legal stuff at all. And that was the job I got right after Entourage, and it was you know, the snarky, badass kind of woman and that was and I worked with Craig Vierko for the first time on that, who then became my love interest on Unreal. It's just crazy all the people that have constantly come back into my life, like even career wise, but again, coming on a show, when you play a very strong character, you automatically command respect because people assumed that is who you are and that you take no bullshit. And that has been the greatest gift because I don't have that like innately in me normally on my normal seven day so and then have to own it. It like forces you to own it and be in it. And I loved that part so much because I got to be crazy strong and but then incredibly vulnerable. And that was the one thing I didn't get to explore yet was how you can make these really strong, confident women very vulnerable because they have to be, and that's actually making them very real. There is no one who is strong who is not also sensitive in real life. Yeah, well, I asked. I asked the lovely David Fincher when I was on the House of Cards. I said, why do I always get cast as a bitch? And he said because you aren't one h And I kind of looked at him and I was like, really, that's it. It's just that simple. And He's like, and also, by the way, you're not a bit, You're just a woman who knows what like, just doesn't give a shit about anybody else. Doesn't make you a bit, And I was like, okay, but you know, I mean, I'm just saying what people want to call what labeled they gave those characters which they don't give them anymore. Finally, Yeah, well, Chris and Ritter actually said it better. A bitch is being in total control of herself. Oh I like that so much. That just gave me chills. Right, yes, my god, it's my favorite. I'm yeah exactly what you You mentioned unreal and this idea of playing and I agree like you, you play people who are not always like you perhaps the best because it's something to dive into. And you mentioned unreal and and and you know, Quinn was the executive producer and director of the show on that show, um, which I love the idea of going behind the scenes on a reality dating show as the premise for a fictional show. What was it like to play her? Because she wasn't always nice? She was intense. Yeah, the first episode was terrifying. You know. They had originally brought that part to me when it shot, when it was a pilot, and I didn't read it and I had no interest in doing it because it was in Atlanta and it was Lifetime and I was coming off a House of Cards and I thought, I don't I'm I don't want to go and do a Lifetime show, you know. And I could say this because they all know that I've had this opinion and obviously that changed. And it's nice to say these things because people then understand, Oh, look see, we can't judge everything. Everybody judges everything. We all judge everybody. Everybody judges everybody, and you know what, we're living in a world now where you can't do that. You just gotta go where the content is. And if the content is great, it doesn't matter where it is or who's doing it, but we just have to support it. Right. So they went, they shot the pilot and they picked it up for ten episodes, and Nina Liederman, who was the head of programming at Lifetime at the time, came to me and was like, you have to play this part, and now we're shooting in Vancouver and you have to meet with these people. You have to meet with Marty knox In and Sarah Richard Shapiro and just let them, just just listen to them. I said, okay, never read a script, never saw the pilot, had a two hour meeting with Marty knox In and Sarah G. Richard Shapiro, and in the room they convinced me that it was going to be this incredible part based on what we would do together as a collaboration actor, writer, producers, creators. So I was like, okay, great. So that first episode was the first time I had read the script and read what the character was and it was terrifying. I called Nina uh and I called Sarah like crying, and I said, I can't do this. She's so mean, Like it's so mean, it's it's it's hurtful, like I am hurting people. And I don't know that I can. I don't know that I can do this. I don't know that I can pull it off. I don't know that I want to represent a woman like this. And Nina kept saying, people are gonna love you. People are gonna love you because you again, because she was said, you're going to see it in your eyes that you have a vulnerability and this is your armor. And we need to represent these women. They need to be represented. And I was like, okay, okay, I don't know, okay, And then like two or three episodes in I then it just snapped and I became incredibly obsessed with how she was represented because they were doing safe words in the first season, like you couldn't say pussy, you had to say who ha, and I said, you know, no, here's the thing. If you if you want me to play this character, I have you got to go dirty. This woman is not going to say who ha. And it was from that episode and that scene and that word that I said, I mean, if I'm gonna do this, I have to go hardcore. And that was the best advice I could have kind of given myself, because you can't play that character like half asked, you can't. I mean, it was it was exhausting. It's really is the hardest character I've ever played, because as it took so much out of me. It it took all my kind of joy of life and my inherent happiness that I have on a daily basis, and I had to put that away and then I got you know, I think obviously it helped that the first season went over so well and the I didn't realize women needed that. I didn't know that women needed these women, and the relationship between Quinn and Rachel was also something I didn't think was going to explode the way it did. And then I felt so proud and so honored that it was in our hands to deliver these messages for women and especially in the reality world. And in those those shows where women are treated so horribly, and it really blew the lid off something. Yeah, and I did not see that. I didn't anticipate it, and I think it's why it made it so glorious. But it was hard. That was a very very hard, hard part. I get it, and and I think that's a really important thing, even to acknowledge. People forget that what we do isn't easy, and playing some of these people is, I mean, it's I have had experiences myself on set where I almost feel like I've I wrap a season and it's like getting over Mono. It's like you don't even realize that you've just you've bought, you've fallen apart, you know, to do to do some of this. And so I think that's so interesting that you can love something so much and it can be so hard. Yeah. And I when it was over, I was I was exhausted, and I was like, I can't I can't do the same where I mean it's I mean I was also flying back and forth from Vancouver and going home every weekend, and then being a mom and a wife and not not doing either very well because I was so in my head and I was, so it was just crazy. So that was also exhausting, But it is funny because here I am now two years later and now I'm like, we need Quinn, like we need we need her back. There was there was messaging that I could do through her. Yes, and that's that's what's really important. I'm realizing more than again our own egos. It's a big it's a big thing. You. You told Mark Marin that roles for you have only gotten better since you turn forty, which I love. And is there something that looking forward you haven't done that you want to is? Is it more of a Quinn for you? What? What is it? You know? I would love to get back to my comedy Chops, which is when I come from, which is all I did in the beginning of my career. And then everyone said, oh, everyone's only going to look at you as a sitcom actress, is what I was told. And so I right after my first sitcom, Good Morning Miami, I went and I did Injustice, which was about the Innocence Project, and I was the comedy relief on a very serious show about serious true stories, wrongful incarcinations. And then I've been on dramas ever since I was like, what happened to the being the sitcom star? I'd like to go back to that girl, you know, I'd love to go back and play the quirky you know for me, like the role of Julia Louis Dreyfus and Veep is like, you know, a dream iconic that or even Fleabag just being crazy, being quirky, not being afraid of not looking good, not being perfect, and it the only thing about Quinn that was hard. The dresses and the makeup and the perfect hair and like all of that was like a lot. So I'd like to be the broken down version of that because I just think it's a little bit more relatable. But I would like to get back to my comedic chops because it's where it's what I of doing the most. So a comedic Quinn might be interesting, you know. I mean she was funny but not trying to She was more funny because you were uncomfortable. Yeah, so you know the show is called work in progress. That's my favorite question to ask when you hear the phrase, what what feels like a work in progress in your life right now? It was funny because I was obviously thinking about it because I knew you were going to ask it, and I last night, as I was going to sleep, I I was answering the question in my sleep, and the first thing that I said was, this is going to sound cliche. And I don't know if somebody else has already said this, but I can honestly say that everything in my life is still a work in progress. Because if I just picked one thing, like saying, oh, you know, work in progress, but coming a director, it's like no, because becoming a director has to do with going and starting from scratch and you know, meeting with people, doing research, watching movies, blah blah blah blah blah. But I think I me and it's crazy because I'm going to be fifty this year, which is insane. I still think I am a huge work in progress, like I am. Every day, I'm realizing something new about myself that maybe I haven't put into action yet. So I think if I want to make it more specific, it would be about I've always lived by now more than never, because we always put things off. Everybody put stuff off. I'd never do that. I'm like, oh, you want to go on the strip, Okay, let's go. Let's book the tickets right now, let's just get them, let's buy them. And if we can't go, then we can't go. Whatever. But listening to those little voices in your head that always say, just do it, don't we tell tomorrow? Yeah, just do it. I just like short, we have to live? What what? Why are we waiting to live? We should all be living every single day, no matter what, even if what means living is being in your pajamas and reading a good book and having a cup of coffee, or like, this is what I need today for myself, This is me living, you know, or going and traveling to a place you've wanted to travel to, and you've always been like now I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait, you know. So that's why I think everything about me is still working itself out. That I really do know it's and it's true, and it's like it takes constant and consistent attention and patience and a willingness to ask yourself questions. And I really love the way that you do that. Thank you for coming and doing that with all of us to well, thank you and thanks for you know, having the place where you can ask questions and people have to answer them because you know, we can run away from them if they're like asked in or view in an article over an email. Yeah, you can just say, all right, ask that question. I'm like, I got you, I got you. Yeah. Look, I don't think we all we all shouldn't stop. We should never think that we're done, you know, as a human race. Yes, my god, like on that positive note. No, but it's just so true, and it's like, yeah, yeah onward. Let's all just everybody should work on themselves every day. Do something different that you think shifts you or changes you or changes your outlook on somebody else. I'm into it, all right, So thanks, thank you. This show is executive produced by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Linley. Our editor is Josh Wendish, and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by Brilliant Anatomy