Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast. On today's wind About It Thursday Therapy, We've got Thomas kran So. He is a professor of psychology at the London School of Economics and an author of a landmark study that the BBC hailed as the first to compare perfectionism across generations. He's had his ted talks, he's been talking all about it. His new book is out, The Perfection Trap, Embracing the power of good enough. So let's get him on and talk all about it Hill. Like you, hi, Thomas, how.

Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast. On today's wind About It Thursday Therapy, We've got Thomas kran So. He is a professor of psychology at the London School of Economics and an author of a landmark study that the BBC hailed as the first to compare perfectionism across generations. He's had his ted talks, he's been talking all about it. His new book is out, The Perfection Trap, Embracing the power of good enough. So let's get him on and talk all about it Hill. Like you, hi, Thomas, how.

Are you good? Very well? Thank you? How are ye?

Are you good? Very well? Thank you? How are ye?

I am really good? Your book, The Perfection Trap, it's embracing the power of good enough and it's it's interesting. When I was reading your rundown, I was like, oh, ironic, I have a tattoo enough like on my arm because I feel like it's it's always been my biggest thing that has rotated in my brain, like I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. And when I got divorced a couple of years ago, I was like, I'm going to tattoo enough on my arm and I need to look at it every single day because it's one of the hardest things to sing in.

I am really good? Your book, The Perfection Trap, it's embracing the power of good enough and it's it's interesting. When I was reading your rundown, I was like, oh, ironic, I have a tattoo enough like on my arm because I feel like it's it's always been my biggest thing that has rotated in my brain, like I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. And when I got divorced a couple of years ago, I was like, I'm going to tattoo enough on my arm and I need to look at it every single day because it's one of the hardest things to sing in.

Yeah, oh definitely. And this particularly in this culture as well, where there's always something more to do right there, it's really difficult to feel like you're ever enough because everything else, everybody else, and all around this needs to be racing away. So it's so important to remind us of that all the time.

Yeah, oh definitely. And this particularly in this culture as well, where there's always something more to do right there, it's really difficult to feel like you're ever enough because everything else, everybody else, and all around this needs to be racing away. So it's so important to remind us of that all the time.

So why perfectionalism, Like when you wrote this book, is it something that you personally struggled with or is it something where like this is just something that I'm seeing that needs to be readdressed.

So why perfectionalism, Like when you wrote this book, is it something that you personally struggled with or is it something where like this is just something that I'm seeing that needs to be readdressed.

Both actually, certainly something I struggle with in my own life and has can contribute to quite significant mental health problems. And I'm actually divorced too, and I wonder whether it's a little bit to do with that as well. And also just everywhere, like you know, I mean, I'm teaching people, so I see I interact with young people a lot. You see it everywhere, so much perfections right now, fear of failure, fear of doing things wrong, fear of doing things imperfectly. So that was kind of where it came from. You know, I was feeling these things, I was seeing these things, and I just I was an academic, so I'm just genuinely curious as to, oh, what's going on here? Is this? Like, is this the new zeitgeist? Is this? Is this something that we need to be paying attention to? So that's kind of where it started.

Both actually, certainly something I struggle with in my own life and has can contribute to quite significant mental health problems. And I'm actually divorced too, and I wonder whether it's a little bit to do with that as well. And also just everywhere, like you know, I mean, I'm teaching people, so I see I interact with young people a lot. You see it everywhere, so much perfections right now, fear of failure, fear of doing things wrong, fear of doing things imperfectly. So that was kind of where it came from. You know, I was feeling these things, I was seeing these things, and I just I was an academic, so I'm just genuinely curious as to, oh, what's going on here? Is this? Like, is this the new zeitgeist? Is this? Is this something that we need to be paying attention to? So that's kind of where it started.

And then is it something where I mean, obviously I feel like it's a repeat sentence all the time. But social media, social media, like you need having to compare and be perfect, and especially with children too. You know. That's why I'm like, I don't even want my daughter to have social media because I don't want her to have to have that like comparison, you know, to filter things or to make herself look different on something. And you know, I even, like personally had to stop using filters because I'm like, well, that's not what I look like, even though I like it better, but I don't. That's that's not me. So do you Is that something else too that you've seen be a negative trend in the reach to being good enough?

And then is it something where I mean, obviously I feel like it's a repeat sentence all the time. But social media, social media, like you need having to compare and be perfect, and especially with children too. You know. That's why I'm like, I don't even want my daughter to have social media because I don't want her to have to have that like comparison, you know, to filter things or to make herself look different on something. And you know, I even, like personally had to stop using filters because I'm like, well, that's not what I look like, even though I like it better, but I don't. That's that's not me. So do you Is that something else too that you've seen be a negative trend in the reach to being good enough?

I think so. So social media is interesting because it's not all bad. There's some really positive elements to social media bringing you know, particularly the communal elements and bringing people together around shared interest and all the rest of it. But obviously there is also a darker side, and it's exactly what you're alluding to there, the social comparison kind of limitless images of everyone else's perfect lives and lifestyle as they invariably going to have an impact on the way that we feel about ourselves. And I don't know if there's any doubt the data is clear on this, But also you know, you don't really need the data. You just have to go onto these platforms to see how they work and to know that that's going to have an impact on our perceptions about what's realistic or what we should be aspiring to and the kind of desirability and the obtainability of those ideals. They clearly they're pretty rejected at US twenty four seven on those platforms, and naturally, I think we're going to interpret them as needs to be perfect.

I think so. So social media is interesting because it's not all bad. There's some really positive elements to social media bringing you know, particularly the communal elements and bringing people together around shared interest and all the rest of it. But obviously there is also a darker side, and it's exactly what you're alluding to there, the social comparison kind of limitless images of everyone else's perfect lives and lifestyle as they invariably going to have an impact on the way that we feel about ourselves. And I don't know if there's any doubt the data is clear on this, But also you know, you don't really need the data. You just have to go onto these platforms to see how they work and to know that that's going to have an impact on our perceptions about what's realistic or what we should be aspiring to and the kind of desirability and the obtainability of those ideals. They clearly they're pretty rejected at US twenty four seven on those platforms, and naturally, I think we're going to interpret them as needs to be perfect.

What have you seen in the mental health area around this perfection trap?

What have you seen in the mental health area around this perfection trap?

Well, perfectionism is really curious because right now you see a lot of it, and I think there's a begrudging acceptance of perfectionism being a necessary evil. I suppose you could call it a favorite flow. So on the one hand, we have this idea that we kind of know it has some baggage, but at the same time we think it's something that helps us succeed or moves us forward. And if you talk to perfectionistic people and are certainly one of these people, they will say say to you that you know everything and all around me could be collapsing right, things could be going wrong. I could be really in a hole in my personal life, work life, whatever it might be. But perfectionism is the one thing keeping me going. It's the one thing holding me up in the world. When all of this other stuff is coming, it feels like it's crashing down. And really the point that book, the biggest reason why I wrote the book was to what it was to really push through that myth, kind of almost smash through it, because it's actually the perfectionism that's going to be at the root of those issues. It's perfectionism is going to be creating those problems and exacerbating and amplifying those problems.

Well, perfectionism is really curious because right now you see a lot of it, and I think there's a begrudging acceptance of perfectionism being a necessary evil. I suppose you could call it a favorite flow. So on the one hand, we have this idea that we kind of know it has some baggage, but at the same time we think it's something that helps us succeed or moves us forward. And if you talk to perfectionistic people and are certainly one of these people, they will say say to you that you know everything and all around me could be collapsing right, things could be going wrong. I could be really in a hole in my personal life, work life, whatever it might be. But perfectionism is the one thing keeping me going. It's the one thing holding me up in the world. When all of this other stuff is coming, it feels like it's crashing down. And really the point that book, the biggest reason why I wrote the book was to what it was to really push through that myth, kind of almost smash through it, because it's actually the perfectionism that's going to be at the root of those issues. It's perfectionism is going to be creating those problems and exacerbating and amplifying those problems.

Uh.

Uh.

And until we recognize that, it's really difficult for us to turn turn the corner on this kind of lionization of perfectionism wider society. And there are many reasons why perfections and contributes to mental health, but the correlations are really strong, and and and it's rising among young people. So those two, those two things really really mean that we should be paying attention to perfectionism when it has it's rising.

And until we recognize that, it's really difficult for us to turn turn the corner on this kind of lionization of perfectionism wider society. And there are many reasons why perfections and contributes to mental health, but the correlations are really strong, and and and it's rising among young people. So those two, those two things really really mean that we should be paying attention to perfectionism when it has it's rising.

Do you see it more in men or women?

Do you see it more in men or women?

So this is a question I get asked a lot, and the data is inconclusive. So when you look across the piece that you tend to find there's not much of a relationship between gender and levels of perfectionism, which is really interesting and we didn't expect to see that. But that doesn't mean to say that there won't be context and situations and environmental factors that mean perfectionistic expectations way heavily on one gender right over another. And I think there's plenty of anecdotal sociological evidence to suggest that females in particular are under the microscope, particularly when it comes to image ideals, ways in which they are told they should behave, they should look and appear, and all the rest of it that men don't necessarily have to contend with. So there's an argument that although mean levels in the aggregate are fairly similar, that doesn't mean that we don't have to deal with context where perfectionism is demanded us as some in different measure, And I think there's an eye to suggest, as I say, females will probably have a lot more to condemn with the moles.

So this is a question I get asked a lot, and the data is inconclusive. So when you look across the piece that you tend to find there's not much of a relationship between gender and levels of perfectionism, which is really interesting and we didn't expect to see that. But that doesn't mean to say that there won't be context and situations and environmental factors that mean perfectionistic expectations way heavily on one gender right over another. And I think there's plenty of anecdotal sociological evidence to suggest that females in particular are under the microscope, particularly when it comes to image ideals, ways in which they are told they should behave, they should look and appear, and all the rest of it that men don't necessarily have to contend with. So there's an argument that although mean levels in the aggregate are fairly similar, that doesn't mean that we don't have to deal with context where perfectionism is demanded us as some in different measure, And I think there's an eye to suggest, as I say, females will probably have a lot more to condemn with the moles.

What is there any studies about ages of kids, like when that starts to become a problem.

What is there any studies about ages of kids, like when that starts to become a problem.

So, like all personality characteristics, they start to crystallize in that early adolescent phase, so around twelve thirteen fourteen, where young people really begin to pick up character characteristics and take on a personality. But that doesn't necessarily mean to say that these perfectionism is genetically inherited to a great extent. So about thirty to forty percent of perfectionism comes from parents and comes from genes. There's nothing we can do about that, right, they're just kind of born with dut predisposition. But then the environment and all around us explains the rest. So what's left over is explained in the environment that we grow up into. And there are many different social forces that can amplify perfecttionistic tendencies, and I talk about them in the book, things like we just discussed social media, but schooling, parenting, the workplace, social media, advertising and all these kind of more broader cultural forces, and they tend to sort of crystallize around that young, young, early adolescent stage, but they can also be triggered later later in life too, and that was certainly a case for me. I grew up in a working class family. The need to excel wasn't necessarily too strong. They need to get bios a lot stronger. However, as I elevated and moved myself into a different world where the expectations were really really high to perform to an exceptional level, to kind of lift myself above other people in the professional world, that's when my perfectionism started to be triggered. So I had this predisposition, and then once I was in a really pressurized competitive environment, that's when the problem started to creep in. That's perfection has and really started to rear its head. So you tend to see it in earlier adolescens start to creep in, and there are many many signs you can look for, but that doesn't mean to say that it can't come on at a later life stage either.

So, like all personality characteristics, they start to crystallize in that early adolescent phase, so around twelve thirteen fourteen, where young people really begin to pick up character characteristics and take on a personality. But that doesn't necessarily mean to say that these perfectionism is genetically inherited to a great extent. So about thirty to forty percent of perfectionism comes from parents and comes from genes. There's nothing we can do about that, right, they're just kind of born with dut predisposition. But then the environment and all around us explains the rest. So what's left over is explained in the environment that we grow up into. And there are many different social forces that can amplify perfecttionistic tendencies, and I talk about them in the book, things like we just discussed social media, but schooling, parenting, the workplace, social media, advertising and all these kind of more broader cultural forces, and they tend to sort of crystallize around that young, young, early adolescent stage, but they can also be triggered later later in life too, and that was certainly a case for me. I grew up in a working class family. The need to excel wasn't necessarily too strong. They need to get bios a lot stronger. However, as I elevated and moved myself into a different world where the expectations were really really high to perform to an exceptional level, to kind of lift myself above other people in the professional world, that's when my perfectionism started to be triggered. So I had this predisposition, and then once I was in a really pressurized competitive environment, that's when the problem started to creep in. That's perfection has and really started to rear its head. So you tend to see it in earlier adolescens start to creep in, and there are many many signs you can look for, but that doesn't mean to say that it can't come on at a later life stage either.

Sure, what do you think is the biggest damage that perfectionalism does to somebody?

Sure, what do you think is the biggest damage that perfectionalism does to somebody?

It's really tough. So in the scientific ligity corporfectionism a transdiagnostic risk factor, and what that means is that perfectionism can contribute to all manner of psychological difficulties and not just those perhaps we often associated with so obsessive tendencies for instance. And the reason why it contributes all sorts of psychological difficulties like depression, anxiety, a sense of ruminative guilt, shame. There's a lot of shame among perfectionistic people. Self conscious emotions, self presentation, concerns, worries about how we look up here and perform relatives to other people. All manner of different psychological difficulties is wrapped up in perfection and it's because perfectionists find it really difficult to manage and deal with challenge and setbacks. So what tends to happen with perfectionism is when things are going okay, there's a sense of affections that we're kind of okay, we're not too bad, we're doing all right, things are going reasonably well. We're not failing. That's the important thing. But as soon as we encounter some setback, challenge or failure, that's when the self conscious emotions at shane. That deal is triggered and that sets in motion and overcompensatory cycle, whereby we feel like we're not good enough, We feel like we've let ourselves down, we feel like we've let other people down. The validation and approval that we so need to feel good about ourselves is not present, and in some cases we feel rejected or criticized, and so in order to almost remedy those self conscious emotions, remedy that shame, we overcompensate. We set ourselves even higher goals next time, because in order to gain the validation of approve, approval of other people back, we need to be perfect, so we set higher goals. We find ourselves in situations of failure because the goals are too high in the first place, we feel even more anxious, even more depressed. That self esteem plummets, and then we overcompensate again, so we say even higher goals and so sets in sight and train this cycle of self defeat, whereby you can see lots of different cyclogs grow under starting to creep in low mood, anxiety, depression, and left untreated, left unchecked, that can that can lead to some quite significant mentalblems, hopelessness, helplessness, and in some cases well so this is why perfectionism is so incredibly damaging because as soon as we hit setbacks, challenge failures, we can we can quickly descend and so and perfectionism really creates a very negative feedback leap in that respect.

It's really tough. So in the scientific ligity corporfectionism a transdiagnostic risk factor, and what that means is that perfectionism can contribute to all manner of psychological difficulties and not just those perhaps we often associated with so obsessive tendencies for instance. And the reason why it contributes all sorts of psychological difficulties like depression, anxiety, a sense of ruminative guilt, shame. There's a lot of shame among perfectionistic people. Self conscious emotions, self presentation, concerns, worries about how we look up here and perform relatives to other people. All manner of different psychological difficulties is wrapped up in perfection and it's because perfectionists find it really difficult to manage and deal with challenge and setbacks. So what tends to happen with perfectionism is when things are going okay, there's a sense of affections that we're kind of okay, we're not too bad, we're doing all right, things are going reasonably well. We're not failing. That's the important thing. But as soon as we encounter some setback, challenge or failure, that's when the self conscious emotions at shane. That deal is triggered and that sets in motion and overcompensatory cycle, whereby we feel like we're not good enough, We feel like we've let ourselves down, we feel like we've let other people down. The validation and approval that we so need to feel good about ourselves is not present, and in some cases we feel rejected or criticized, and so in order to almost remedy those self conscious emotions, remedy that shame, we overcompensate. We set ourselves even higher goals next time, because in order to gain the validation of approve, approval of other people back, we need to be perfect, so we set higher goals. We find ourselves in situations of failure because the goals are too high in the first place, we feel even more anxious, even more depressed. That self esteem plummets, and then we overcompensate again, so we say even higher goals and so sets in sight and train this cycle of self defeat, whereby you can see lots of different cyclogs grow under starting to creep in low mood, anxiety, depression, and left untreated, left unchecked, that can that can lead to some quite significant mentalblems, hopelessness, helplessness, and in some cases well so this is why perfectionism is so incredibly damaging because as soon as we hit setbacks, challenge failures, we can we can quickly descend and so and perfectionism really creates a very negative feedback leap in that respect.

So in your book, the perfection trap is there. You know, obviously you give tools and stuff like what are some of the tools that people will be able to get from from your book to like help with you know, manage it, and then yeah.

So in your book, the perfection trap is there. You know, obviously you give tools and stuff like what are some of the tools that people will be able to get from from your book to like help with you know, manage it, and then yeah.

Yeah, well there's all sorts of different things we can do. I think the first thing is to recognize that perfectionism is a problem. So, as I mentioned, a lot of people will associate perfection and something that's very positive or something it's carrying them forward, something that's helping them through these difficult periods. But that's simply not the case, and the data suggests it can create a lot of psychological problems with very little performance actually interestingly, so I think that's the first thing. The first thing to recognize is that we need to understand it's a problem and then begin to let go. And we can do that in a number of different ways. That the first and the thing I've really focused on in the book is self acceptance I think are so important being comfortable in our own skin. And that's easy to than done, of course, especially in this culture where we're constantly poured in different directions and tod we should be more, have more, do more. But nevertheless, it's so important to try to reconnect with ourselves, to show ourselves to be vulnerable, to be courageous, to do things that we find that give us purpose and joy, even if we're not world champion at them, even if we're not exceptional. It's really important we push ourselves out there. So give you a couple of examples. In the workplace, for instance, if you find public speaking. A lot of people find public speaking very difficult. If you think that public speaking is going to challenge that perfect persona that you're looking to put out into the world because you feel like you're not a very good public speaking you're not very confident, or you're not verarticular, or whatever it might be, then you will tend withhold yourself from putting yourself forward for those situations because you don't want to show any deficiency, your limitation if you're a perfectionist. So I would encourage you tomorrow to go out and put your hand up to do that thing that challenges that that perfect person in your mind's eye, and public begins really good one. But it could be writing a project, It could be putting your hand up to shairing or hands meeting. It could be something in your personal life, you know, playing music, singing, dancing, stuff that you feel like you might be rubbish up. But never let's give you some sense enjoy it. I think this is so important because what those moments of discomfort, and they will be uncomfortable because this is an uncomfortable process. But what they teach you is something really important about the perfect person that you're trying to emulate, and they teach you that, really, is it worth living in fear trying to be this perfect person or actually showing ourselves being vulnerable. Is that as catastrophic as we've had it in our mind's eye that it might be? And often it's the case that we put ourselves form we do a great job, But even if we don't do a great job, the consequences of that set back, difficulty, challenge are often not catastrophic as we often think they might be. So this is all about reframing, This is all about pushing ourselves out there importantly too about being compassionate to ourselves. And things don't go well, so you're going to encounter set back, challenge. Make sure you're kind to yourself in those moments. Don't fall into a bit of self loathing like you're like you'll want to in the moment. That's also really really important. And secondly, reframe, reframe, reframe, reframe, think about what it is that you're doing. Ask yourself. Are those kind of very rigid and narrow thought process black and white thinking? It's associate perfections and mustard. Is I have to do that? If I don't do this, and the catastrophs can happen? Like how much we actually believe those things? Write them down, rate them, reflect on them, and try to reframe them to find more compassionate ways forward. So does it have to or is it would have a like to or this would be good to have done? Or if I don't quite make this target, then this target, which is slightly lower perhaps is okay. It's good enough. So progress is better than perfection. Good enough really is good enough? And try to be courageous and put yourself out there and challenge your perfectionism in difficult, uncomfortable ways, but that's really how you begin to overcome some of these tendencies.

Yeah, well there's all sorts of different things we can do. I think the first thing is to recognize that perfectionism is a problem. So, as I mentioned, a lot of people will associate perfection and something that's very positive or something it's carrying them forward, something that's helping them through these difficult periods. But that's simply not the case, and the data suggests it can create a lot of psychological problems with very little performance actually interestingly, so I think that's the first thing. The first thing to recognize is that we need to understand it's a problem and then begin to let go. And we can do that in a number of different ways. That the first and the thing I've really focused on in the book is self acceptance I think are so important being comfortable in our own skin. And that's easy to than done, of course, especially in this culture where we're constantly poured in different directions and tod we should be more, have more, do more. But nevertheless, it's so important to try to reconnect with ourselves, to show ourselves to be vulnerable, to be courageous, to do things that we find that give us purpose and joy, even if we're not world champion at them, even if we're not exceptional. It's really important we push ourselves out there. So give you a couple of examples. In the workplace, for instance, if you find public speaking. A lot of people find public speaking very difficult. If you think that public speaking is going to challenge that perfect persona that you're looking to put out into the world because you feel like you're not a very good public speaking you're not very confident, or you're not verarticular, or whatever it might be, then you will tend withhold yourself from putting yourself forward for those situations because you don't want to show any deficiency, your limitation if you're a perfectionist. So I would encourage you tomorrow to go out and put your hand up to do that thing that challenges that that perfect person in your mind's eye, and public begins really good one. But it could be writing a project, It could be putting your hand up to shairing or hands meeting. It could be something in your personal life, you know, playing music, singing, dancing, stuff that you feel like you might be rubbish up. But never let's give you some sense enjoy it. I think this is so important because what those moments of discomfort, and they will be uncomfortable because this is an uncomfortable process. But what they teach you is something really important about the perfect person that you're trying to emulate, and they teach you that, really, is it worth living in fear trying to be this perfect person or actually showing ourselves being vulnerable. Is that as catastrophic as we've had it in our mind's eye that it might be? And often it's the case that we put ourselves form we do a great job, But even if we don't do a great job, the consequences of that set back, difficulty, challenge are often not catastrophic as we often think they might be. So this is all about reframing, This is all about pushing ourselves out there importantly too about being compassionate to ourselves. And things don't go well, so you're going to encounter set back, challenge. Make sure you're kind to yourself in those moments. Don't fall into a bit of self loathing like you're like you'll want to in the moment. That's also really really important. And secondly, reframe, reframe, reframe, reframe, think about what it is that you're doing. Ask yourself. Are those kind of very rigid and narrow thought process black and white thinking? It's associate perfections and mustard. Is I have to do that? If I don't do this, and the catastrophs can happen? Like how much we actually believe those things? Write them down, rate them, reflect on them, and try to reframe them to find more compassionate ways forward. So does it have to or is it would have a like to or this would be good to have done? Or if I don't quite make this target, then this target, which is slightly lower perhaps is okay. It's good enough. So progress is better than perfection. Good enough really is good enough? And try to be courageous and put yourself out there and challenge your perfectionism in difficult, uncomfortable ways, but that's really how you begin to overcome some of these tendencies.

I love that. I love the whole reflect and you know, reframe it too. That's a huge piece. Do you touch on in the book to perfectionalism in relationships? Because I feel like for me, like I was like, Okay, I have to be the perfect wife. I have to do this perfectly how we did it in therapy, and it's like sometimes like holding all those things, it's just like it's not perfect and I can't be because it's just so there's so much more stress when you're trying to go buy the playbook and it's just you feel like you're feeling at it, and then it's like it's not or it's not working, and I'm like that's the piece too. I like when it didn't work, I'm like, well then it's my fault or I didn't I didn't you know, try harder, I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't good enough in this, And so I think that was that's almost where I played more of a perfectionist piece in relationships. And then also what people wanted me to be rather than who I actually was, because it was like, well, this is what they think I am and want me to be, so I'm going to be this person. But it really wasn't that.

I love that. I love the whole reflect and you know, reframe it too. That's a huge piece. Do you touch on in the book to perfectionalism in relationships? Because I feel like for me, like I was like, Okay, I have to be the perfect wife. I have to do this perfectly how we did it in therapy, and it's like sometimes like holding all those things, it's just like it's not perfect and I can't be because it's just so there's so much more stress when you're trying to go buy the playbook and it's just you feel like you're feeling at it, and then it's like it's not or it's not working, and I'm like that's the piece too. I like when it didn't work, I'm like, well then it's my fault or I didn't I didn't you know, try harder, I didn't. I didn't. I wasn't good enough in this, And so I think that was that's almost where I played more of a perfectionist piece in relationships. And then also what people wanted me to be rather than who I actually was, because it was like, well, this is what they think I am and want me to be, so I'm going to be this person. But it really wasn't that.

Yeah, And that's so that's so important to say. And this is something that a lot of people will will struggle with, this sense that we have to be a certain we have to have a certain relationship, we have to be a certain person in that relationship, and we're tyrannized almost by what k Master Colincsion Karen Hornet called the tyranny should should be this should be? That should be? You know, a perfect mother, should be a perfect partner, should be a perfect lover, should be should be a perfect person in the relationship. Just you know, there's all sorts of so much pressure and expectation to be put on ourselves to do things absolutely right. And you know, life isn't like that. Life is messy, life is chaotic, it's unpredictable. Things come out of the blue that we don't expect, a global pandemic comes along and creates all sorts of has can stress. These are things we just simply can't control. And it's not about trying to be perfect, because trying to be perfect doesn't give us any a bandit of any rigg or root to accommodate these difficulties. In some predictabilities, what's more important is kind of an imperfect or accepting that life is imperfect and our relationships will be imperfect, and there'll be things that come out of the blue we don't expect, and there'll be things our partners do that we're not happy with or in some ways they weren't expected and we feel let down. It's important to recognize and let those feelings in, not reallypress them, not try to recycle them into something else, not avoid them or work around them, but actually address them head on. There's just normal and natural and inevitable parts of just being fallible human beings living in a very unpredictable world and striving for the imperfect relationship and accepting that all the relationships are imperfect, all people are imperfect, and no relationship with person could ever be made perfect, and that really is okay. That helps us, That helps us navigate those challenging times in much healthier ways and be prepared for the moments when things don't go quite to plan. So I think that's so important.

Yeah, And that's so that's so important to say. And this is something that a lot of people will will struggle with, this sense that we have to be a certain we have to have a certain relationship, we have to be a certain person in that relationship, and we're tyrannized almost by what k Master Colincsion Karen Hornet called the tyranny should should be this should be? That should be? You know, a perfect mother, should be a perfect partner, should be a perfect lover, should be should be a perfect person in the relationship. Just you know, there's all sorts of so much pressure and expectation to be put on ourselves to do things absolutely right. And you know, life isn't like that. Life is messy, life is chaotic, it's unpredictable. Things come out of the blue that we don't expect, a global pandemic comes along and creates all sorts of has can stress. These are things we just simply can't control. And it's not about trying to be perfect, because trying to be perfect doesn't give us any a bandit of any rigg or root to accommodate these difficulties. In some predictabilities, what's more important is kind of an imperfect or accepting that life is imperfect and our relationships will be imperfect, and there'll be things that come out of the blue we don't expect, and there'll be things our partners do that we're not happy with or in some ways they weren't expected and we feel let down. It's important to recognize and let those feelings in, not reallypress them, not try to recycle them into something else, not avoid them or work around them, but actually address them head on. There's just normal and natural and inevitable parts of just being fallible human beings living in a very unpredictable world and striving for the imperfect relationship and accepting that all the relationships are imperfect, all people are imperfect, and no relationship with person could ever be made perfect, and that really is okay. That helps us, That helps us navigate those challenging times in much healthier ways and be prepared for the moments when things don't go quite to plan. So I think that's so important.

Yeah, No, I agree with you, Thomas. Where can our listeners find you.

Yeah, No, I agree with you, Thomas. Where can our listeners find you.

You can find me on Google to be typing Thomas Curran. I'll come up and all the links to socials are available. And the book or my book, The Perfection Trap is out in all good bookstores and online, so again you can search for it on Google and it will come up.

You can find me on Google to be typing Thomas Curran. I'll come up and all the links to socials are available. And the book or my book, The Perfection Trap is out in all good bookstores and online, so again you can search for it on Google and it will come up.

You find that amazing ad to Kart, The Perfection Trap embracing the power of good enough. Thank you so much Thomas for coming on.

You find that amazing ad to Kart, The Perfection Trap embracing the power of good enough. Thank you so much Thomas for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me.

Okay, goodbye, m

Okay, goodbye, m