Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. So we have Um. We teased us on the last episode because I was talking about well, I mean, Kat obviously has been very open about her journey in her marriage on the podcast, and we've had Nick and Catherine on I would say, oh, man, like four years ago maybe on wine Down, and so to have them back come full circle in this setting, it's going to be really fun. And I'm very excited to have Nick Woodard and Catherine Woodard on the podcast today. Hi, babe, hike, I'm uncomfortable, can't I I don't think it's possible to make me uncomfortable. I think because you're you're already so open to begin with, yeah, just tell you how it is? Well then well then yeah, fun, you want to go Cherson first? Well, now you start, because I though you've known the journey intimately. Well, I would just like to say, let's back it up for a second and let's start from the beginning. Um, Nick, I'll have you start, Um, when how did you and Catherine meet? Where did you guys meet? And when did you know she was the one? Are we going to be? Uh? Well, are we going to be one? Win? Down. You're unapologetically honest, so welcome. Well, after after I graduated college, Um, I was living in my sister's basement here in in Brentwood. And would you go to college again Middle Tennessee State? Okay, would you study marketing? Oh? Well yeah, okay, Um, at least you followed you. Wow, okay. I don't know anybody that has a degree that's specific to actually what they're doing. No. I was like, okay, you do. Well, that's why you guys are married. Continue music business? What music business? Oh well, I mean you go to college. Yeah, I know. Anyway, move on, cliff notes Nick though okay, he was like, it was night nine. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna need another hot tea for this one. Uh. The short answer to the story is my Space. Oh, top four. She worked her way into the top four? Wow? How did you meet her on my Space? Though? A friend of a friend. I don't even know. I don't remember how that how that works? Like A found her attractive, so I friended her, but let it be known, she contacted me first. It's just like the sliding in the DM situation. But I think I did slide first. We were sliding before sliding was cool? Uh huh wait and she did first? She did? Yeah, I think I did, because you just saw him. Well, we went to school together, so I knew who he was. Huh, and church together, so like I knew who he was, and he dated a girl that I cheered with and like all those things. So yeah, I slid in and I played football with her her older brother for I don't know what two three years. So you guys dated for how long before you guys got married? I don't know, bid. It was pretty quick? Um ten months, ten months? So you got married? No, no, we got engaged, sorry, ten months engaged and then married four months later, four months later. I'll last back then at this point, right, because four and a half months twenty especially back then, I feel like you there was longer engagement. They happened, Yes, they happened. The venue that I wanted happened to have like a date. And the truth comes up and remains on brand in her story already perfect. Why are we surprised? I was like, done, we'll make it work. I was like, well, we're going to do this. So whether it's you know, quickly, you're taking our time. So you got married at twenty I was twenty three, right, Yes, I was twenty three. He was twenty six. Yeah, something like that in that range. Okay, and then you had your first kid at hold twenty five twenty five. Wow, that's like all of our Michigan front. I was just going to say, this is the Michigander life crime engagement. Babies is how we were all, um, which is what I wanted. I wanted to be like a young mom doing it twenty four. I definitely didn't do that. I didn't want that. No, no, no, ma'am here in mc guinness book a World Records. Baby. Okay, So you had your first son, who's just I mean, he's might as well be thirty. Like that's insane. Um, not because of how old you guys are. I'm saying because you guys showed a picture and I'm like, he's so old I know, and he's so responsible. We just had this conversation last night. It's like he doesn't need us at all. Like he would be fine, I said last night, Like he could get his own apartment. Yeah, he which is great. I mean that's like, no, it's so good. But yeah, um, okay, So Nick, I have a question for you okay, what was or if you could pinpoint the first moment you remember distance growing in your relationship ooh um. Probably probably the stereotypical. You know, once you have kids, especially at a young age. You know, we were both i'll say, starting our careers, you know, trying to grow your career, and then you bring kids into the mix. And what Emmy was only what a couple of years after Caden, So like all we knew for the longest time was the grind. You know, as you're you're both trying to do your your careers, you're both trying to advance, you're taking care of kids. Um, you know, she would travel some, so I would take some responsibilities, um solo, and then you know vice versa. We we always kind of shared everything. And then your focus is so just hurry, hurry and busy and taking care of kids that I think sometimes you kind of I don't say forget, but you're so overwhelmed with the day to day that maybe you start to back off of those very necessary things in order to grow in your own relationship together. Necessary things being yeah, date nights and intentionality. Yeah, I'd say, just you get overwhelmed with stuff and you just you get into some patterns that you know, on face value don't seem to be detrimental, but over the course of time can be. And Catherine, what about for you, like, was there can you can you pinpoint a specific memory or moment that you kind of was like, Oh, we're not this isn't like we're not as close as we once were. It's funny because him saying that, I'm like, well, I guess that's true, but I don't. I never saw it that way, which is so interesting to hear that. For me, it was the obvious starting to argue, starting to fight. Year seven, very memorable seven San Diego. Yes, the big fight, the big San Diego fight was my big memory for sure. You want to talk about it, yeah, I mean I just know. I don't even remember the whole detail around it. I just know that we were on a plane with you, we talked about going to San Diego. I don't even remember what he did that upset me so much, though, the sad thing and that funny something about not wanting to go or not wanting to spend the money, and I just wanted him to like want to go or to surprise me. It was something about wanting him to want of course, and we just had on the way home from the airport, we argued. We got home, we were it was the first time we had truly fought in front of the kids, and like really bad, Like I asked him to leave, he refused to leave. So I'm like sitting there holding my I mean, it was dramatic, like very dramatic, and I was like, this can't be. But I mean, I'm sure obviously there was things before that that we were already growing apart. We're already you know, building up before that. But that's my memory. Do you think from San Diego you started, was that the shift that you started to kind of push away even more? Yeah, And my biggest thing was the kids. I was like, we can't fight like this in front of the kids anymore. So then I just kind of started to shut down. So what's the timeline between San Diego and the decision? And we obviously want to get more detailed into how the decision to split or separate, But what's the timeline between San Diego and the separation? How many years of living in that feeling? Eight? Yeah? Yeah, eight a lot? Yeah, And that feels heavy, like just even like, that's heavy, that's almost a decade. And in those points, are you guys sharing with each other that you feel distant? Is it? And I'm asking these questions because I know I can speak on behalf of myself, but I probably can confidently speak on behalf of Jana too. In certain relationships, like you just start to shut down, or there's resentment building, or maybe there's you're not saying what you want, what you need, what you feel like. Are you is this the switch where you start to like make the file folder where you're just putting in like in this I don't like and that I don't like, Or are you living in a space of like, Okay, I can tell something's wrong and I'm trying to move us and it just feels like you're not clicking. I'd say kind of a mix of all of it. I mean, we did couples therapy at the time, and it wasn't working well for us. We would leave there. The last time we went to couples therapy, we left and we were like basically like we're either getting divorced or we're sweeping this under the rug. Yeah, And so we just said it was just creating more issues and not not to say that therapy does that, because I think therapy is great. Yeah, you know, y'all here know me. I'll talk to anybody about anything. But I think if you don't have the right fit, it can be detrimental. And I think we were kind of in a situation where I don't know, I guess we did ultimately want to change, but I think we went into therapy figuring out how to make the other person change instead of going in with the focus on you. I think we kind of had the wrong mindset and just the way I am was, Hey, I made this commitment. We're in this together. Whether I enjoy it or not, this is the commitment I made. I'm going to see it through. And happiness is not necessarily a part of the commitment. You know, Happiness comes and goes. But with that said, it was yeah, well it was a struggle for many, many years, but deep down we always knew we had something amazing in there. We just had to tap into it. Katherine, you're trumping, well, I was thinking about us doing couples therapy and how that didn't work for us us. I think a lot of it for us, And I'm not like pointing fingers or doing anything. It was I had the very obvious childhood wounds. Um, I acknowledged those and when they were coming out, so it was like, let's go to couples therapy and fix Catherine. I felt that way and he definitely felt that way. And it was one of those we got into it, and again I wasn't in a place to necessarily make changes. I was aware, but not to make changes. And he was in a place of well, my family was perfect and I'm perfect, and that was just perfect were very you know, obvious. Mine were a little bit deeper. Literally. The therapist would be like, so nake about and he's like, my family's perfect. And I was tell us about a childhood you do you have you know, some stuff you you dealt with as a child, And I was like, well, my parents were at every game ever played. Dad told me loved me all the time. So did mom. I was always hugged on, loved on. No, pretty good, That's how that went. So I was like, yeah, I've done. I feel like this is a copy paste of my couple therapy. I'm like, so here's my open giant winds and my husband's like, who's awesome? I basically in the fifty sitcom and I'm like, cool, I'll head out. I just thought we had to address that because I think that like it's not but it's common. I mean it has to feel at that point too, like how to eat an elephant when bite at a time, right, Like you sit down and you lay out what you need to work through, and then you're like, okay, we already have seven eight years under us, you know, or whatever ten years at that point, and then you have to go, how do we deconstruct to reconstruct? And let's just do all of that in like one hour. And then let's also go back to parenting kids, three kids full time and working, both of you working full time, like it takes a it's exhausting, and it's not easy work in there, exhausting. In the eight years that you guys were in that let's sweep or let's shove down, push it down, push push, push, push, push, push push. I want to ask both of you what was the number one need that wasn't met? And I want you to go a step deeper than just like we know that you know, okay, maybe there wasn't as much sexual activity, but I think it always goes like for me, like when my X wasn't having sex with me, the I was so upset, but it was the underneath or feeling of yeah, I'm not loved or I'm not chosen. So I'm curious what that was for you and what that was for you For me? Um, you know, the intimate intimacy aspect. Yes, sex is a part of it, but that's again, that's one one little factor. It was the it was the connectiveness, the the you know, wanting her to show that she needed me. You know, I'm wired like every other guy. I want to be a provider. I want to I want to be needed. Um. You know, she's a very independent woman, so, which is what attracted me to her in the first place. But when you start to get to a place where you're like, wow, I could die tomorrow and she'd pick right up and be fine. Yeah, that's that's a hard pick. Do you honestly believe that I did at the time? Yeah, Katherine, how does that make you feel? I mean I knew he felt that way, and if I'm being completely honest, I think part of me was like, yeah, I could, you know, totally, like I've been built my whole life trying to be independent, like this is me. You know, it's a shame you and I don't have anything in common. I know, I'm so over here like wow, well no, I mean it's so truecause because I remember, like even during those eight years you're like eyep, I was looking at apartments and I'm like, it's like you you just you've always been like you know business, I can handle this and I can do this, and like it's a beautiful quality. At the same time, that piece, I think when you guys did separate, I'm like, I'm like, oh, I don't want you to ever to be alone because I'm like, I know maybe you say you're okay to be alone, but I'm like, are you though forever? Like you know, I'm like, I want you to find love again and I want you to feel loved and because you deserve that. So that piece, I was like, that was my most like I was scared for you. On that piece. I didn't want you just to like not find love again and just like be like I can do this by myself. Independence, I think is just such a blessing and a curse. It truly is like I've learned that for sure. For me. Oh, that's a hard one, you know, me, it's hard to dig deeper. Let's dig deeper, Okay. I think for me, my biggest wasn't necessarily what I needed from him, because I couldn't pinpoint that I didn't know what I needed from him. But I know my issue was that I felt like a failure, Like I just felt like, well, he's over here saying I need X Y and Z needs I don't really know what I need, and I'm just over here not being able to accommodate those needs or not wanting to or not feeling like I should be more like I grew up with no physical touch and he wants physical touch, and I'm like, I'm at a point where I don't even know how to like, you know, like hold your hand, you know, Like I didn't see that, and so I just felt like a shut down failure. So it wasn't necessarily that I'm over here like, well he's not giving me x Y and Z. I used some of those things as excuses, like I'd be like, well, you didn't set up date night, or you didn't do this, or you didn't do that, But truly it was just a wall was up because I didn't know how to do what I knew I needed to do well. And I'm sure the more he pushed, the more you shut off. Yes, well I was going to say that, like I became someone that I wasn't. Yes, so over the years, like I became needy. I attached me. Absolutely, Yeah, we were that. Yeah, so you're you're we were the same human like it made me cleany, made me like, you know, and then she can pick up on the fact that you know, I'm doing something for an agenda, like all right, we got to go on a date night, so you know, if I do this for her, then she'll do it. Just became like a poker game. Um, and you can both feel that, but you're not saying it right exactly, You're just being that way. Yeah. Oh and then I we did figure this out in therapy. Well, I finally admitted it. I would create a fight, so like if we were going to go on to date night, I would sabotage it. I would like come up with something and I would just create a fight. So then it was like, okay, great, now we can go back to our respective court alone. Yeah, you go to this room right am over here. Ship that in work diary. So then what was the what was the um the switch for you, Catherine to go, Okay, I'm filing for divorce. I started doing my own therapy, which was so much more beneficial for me than a couple of therapy, not knocking couples therapy, but my own journey. And my big thing was I was living what I lived. My kids were living what I lived as a child, and that was killing me. Like they're not seeing affection, They're not seeing us love each other, go on dates, you know, do all these things. They're just seeing two independent people do their own thing. We're getting along at this point, we're not fighting really, but like this isn't what I want for my kids. So that put me back into therapy, and I was like, I'm a very decisive person. Usually I hate living in the gray. I hate, you know, and I was living there for so long. So finally I was just like I have to make a decision, like it is, something has to happen. And it was kind of like there were two hards in front of me. They both are a lot of work, and so I just kind of made a decision and then I think I was convinced it was the right decision for sure. Let me add a little something to that though, like you are, our situation was that's what made it feel so weird when we were going through it. It's like we still were the best of friends. There was just something that was not connecting. Well, I think too, Like every time we've had a conversation, she'd be like, he didn't. He's not a cheater, he's not a nucle he didn't. He doesn't drink, he's not He's an amazing dad. Like she's like, it's like you were trying to find a reason for the last eight years almost to be like, Okay, that doesn't make it makes sense, to make it makes sense, why the disconnect is there, or to leave right or I wanted him to do it right because like you know, my mom was the one that left my dad, and I'm like, I don't want to be the mom that makes the decision. That was the biggest piece for me. It was like a standoff, who's going to budge first? Well, and you I remember coming to the gym and you know, we we were having a conversation and I'm like, but Nick, that's not a way to live either, Like Nope, I'm never going to divorce her. I'm like, so you're just gonna be unhappy for the rest of your life. Well, I'll not have your needs met, push it all down and die first. That that was the plan. And I was like, but that's not okay either. I'm like, I love both of you, and y'all are fucking miserable, right, Like it's okay that you didn't do this or she didn't do that, Like you guys are just not happy together, and like it's okay to walk away, Like you deserve happiness, she deserves happiness. I think again, it's maybe that's a difference in upbringing in that type situation, but it was very much like, Okay, what's what's the hardest here? Me me pushing it all down and just dealing with it internally, or you know, my kids having two separate homes and do like so and again there you kind of go into far extremes in your head, like if we stay together, it's going to be this way and we're going to continue to go down this horrible path. If we break it off, then you know, oh my god, my kids aren't going to have a family. And it's it's so you kind of go to extremes both ways. So the easiest thing to do is nothing like status quo, right, just keep it how it is, which isn't right by any means, but well, the vulnerability it takes at that point to lean into each other and get out of your own way and out of each other's way and just like lean in, it's just not even really an option at that point. Like it's like it definitely didn't feel like it was for sure. Yeah, so then what was the thought for you, Catherine, to go, wait a minute, maybe I'm making a mistake. You know. It's interesting because when we weren't together, we got along so well. I mean, it was like everybody around us, like, what the hell are you doing? Ago? Can I just say that? Preston and I were at home and he's like, this isn't gonna last. And I was like their marriage and he's like, no, them being a part. Maybe they're not supposed to be divorced, and I was like, I feel it too, I'm confused. We felt like your kids. All of us were like explaining this stuff. You saying something Timmy, lets yeah, you were like you, I don't know what it is, but you guys had too much respect and too much love. Like I was like, at the heart of this, you have what it takes to be for forever. There's just some icky surfacy stuff like we got to clean up or something, but no one, no one goes through a divorce, like y'all were going through a divorce, and I'm just like, like, what do you want, baked, Yeah, take that, that's fine. You need something. I'm like, we do the most mutual admiration like moment, and I do think that exists in divorces somewhere, but like eventually it kep. Yeah, I do, but like for it to just be I was like, all of a sudden, like I'm like, maybe I'll just need different rooms or something, because it just feels like a whole spaces all you're really wanting the dating. We got different rooms, I got a whole new house for a couple of months, but yeah, I moved out, you know, the whole thing. And Kat was you know, you were here here, here, she was outstairs where Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think so we were getting along so well and I think we truly figured out in that time that like being best friends never left, you know. That was always there. That was always the common thread. It was just you know, the the being in a relationship part of it. Um. But honestly, like it took it. I hate to say it. It took us dating other people for me to like really go whoa whoa way to men, Nat get out there and you show them that's your man girl. Yeah. But I very specifically remember Kristen of here talking about one of your episodes turning Cat into the wild in the right direction. I remember getting a text from Nick going, well, now listen to your podcast anymore, and I'm like, I'm so sorry. We're just trying to make her like, you know, like happy, Like you need to go be wild too if you want. Like it was hard playing the like friends to both yah, you know what I mean, because I'm like, I want you to be happy, but I want you to be happy and then you know, and then sometimes dating helps you get back out there and feel like, oh, I'm not going to be alone forever or like I'm good. I think yeah, I think we can all agree that Kat was never gonna be Cat in the wild wild, you know, me getting away and every I spent a lot of times fishing like those three or four months. It was just I needed. Ninety percent of the time I was alone, just processing, Okay, what's the future look like, what's you know, what's going to happen moving forward? Um? But what that said, it was such a weird feeling because in my gut I knew it wasn't over. So then that's interesting because I remember when we were sitting up back and I said, what if she asked for you back? And you're like, now I'm done? When when once I get past a point, I'm done. Well, I remember very specifically what I said to you. You were like, you know, what if she comes about? And I said, unless there is an act of God and a fundamental change in our relationship, I can't go back through that again. And nothing shy of an act of God and fundamental change, I mean, and pursing you date other people potentially because she realized And sometimes that's what it takes to see like oh wait a minute, no, that A that's my man, and B like you don't know what you have until you like that's saying. There's a saying for a reason. My favor saying now is um, sometimes people don't know what you bring to the table. Till they see you doing your thing at another table. But yeah, you know what that said. I always knew at some point, you know, Yes, I'm a relationship guy, So I was obviously going to be looking for the things that I felt that I didn't have. And I always knew at some point, you know, I was going to meet somebody that wanted something more than I was able to give. You some point, someone's gonna want me to love them fully, and I knew that I would never be able to do that because I was still in love with Catherine. So that was my biggest fear going You know, this relationship didn't work, but the next one is not going to work either, because I can't give them what they're gonna want because he was putting me first. And that the other one I sense a little it's a little little nat geo. It's a little out in the wild Mike instinct. She did get cat wild. She did. We just didn't see that coming. So you were so to walk us through that piece. Then, like, what was the conversation you had with Nick to kind of get him back or say hey, whoopsies. Yeah, So it started with no, no, It started with like a very vulnerable conversation, not yet realizing that I fully wanted him back. But it started with a very vulnerable like I need to tell you that you were a good dad, Like you did everything you could as a husband, Like I needed to have that conversation with him. And yes, it also evolved around someone else who was evolved, and you know, it was a conversation but like you're my best friend, and like we're co parenting, and like this person doesn't get to come in between. You know, there was a lot of that, and it was the most vulnerable I'd been in a long time. That was the first conversation. But I think we still thought he was moving down that path and we were staying, you know, divorced. And then I kind of had to evaluate my feelings around it. I'm like, why am I so bothered by this? Why do I feel like is it just because I'm jealous? Is it just like And I really had to evaluate my feelings on it, and then honestly, it was for me, it was just such an act of God. It was like in church something he said. I was just like, do you remember he said, it was the day you remember calling crying? Right, we are picking up The crazy thing is she sent me the clip of that sermon. I was like, yeah, I didn't pick up on anything, but it was something that rocks well because you saw it. It It was something about like, and people may not agree with this, but like Christians don't just we don't just throw away marriages, basically not saying like if there's reasons and stuff like that, but we truly, to me, never really had that like blow up a reason or whatever. And it was something along that. It was something along the lines of not just throwing away a marriage. And my kids were there and I was just like, oh, it was awful, and he was like, oh, yeah, the kids will be fine, blah blah blah. I'm like, no, no no, no, I need to come over. We need to talk, you know, and it just kind of switched for me, and it was just kind of like this moment, and so I just went over there and like started talking, and he was, you know, at first, hesitant, you know, as as he should be, you know, and I didn't want to hurt him further. So it was very much just a conversation of like, I'm having these thoughts. I don't feel like we did everything that we could have, but I don't want to hurt you. I don't want you to have to go through this again. So what do you think? You know? And I just kind of sat there and he was quiet. Well, I tell, I told, I've said this depression too. I'm like, I think anytime you rebuild anything, half of it fifty This is I want to remind everyone I have a PhD in so but like for me, fifty percent of it is a decided heart and the other fifty is figuring out why you do what you do. And I just feel like you had the fifty percent trying to figure out why you do what you do. But like once there's a decided heart, especially with a brain like yours, Yeah, it's I mean it's on the power point at that point. And you're done. So now that you guys are reconciled and back together, you Okay, Catherine did not get divorced. My kids, we or Ramsey still thinks we did. But it's okay, we've got to get there. You were about to right like it was going to be on Monday. Yeah, yeah, the next day, so you're not. So. Catherine is not divorced. They just had a little bit of a separation we're going to we're not. Now, what are you most aware of moving forward so that you don't fall back? Well, this is hard because I feel like the honeymoon stage is kind of over right, um sneaking around, Yeah, good time. But even at home there was still a honeymoon stage. I feel like for a while now life is busy as crap again. We're every which way and we're and it's easy to fall back in. I mean, I think some habits are starting to creep back in a little bit, Like which ones like that are that we're glad to. Yeah, when I first moved back in, like we were spending every single night together watching TV together. They're like, but the way we're both wired is we need us time. You know, we're I've got clients pulling at me, She's got you, you guys are Actually she's a client of both here. So I think at this point it's just being intentional with it and you know, kind of checking in, like like she'll come in and be like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna watch my show tonight. You good, We're good. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. So I think the intentionality and being aware of those things that, you know, don't let it become habitual as much as it wasn't the past. Right, Yeah, I agree with that, and I think we're very aware of it and we are just talking. You know, before we never talked, so now we're talking about it a lot. And there are definitely been certain triggers that have come up for both of us. Oh yeah, absolutely that we've had to talk through. You know, like I got upset about something and then he autumn radically goes so I can't go back to that place, you know, and I'm like, it's fine, Like it's not that, you know. So there's little triggers that will come up every now and then that we just kind of have to talk through. But so do you kind of get scared that she's going to be like I can't do this anymore, I want to divorce again or something. Do I get scared? No, Like, I don't think it'll ever go to that again. The anxiousness died a little bit. It died a little bit because well, it's like my brain's telling you know, I'm a very emotional person. So yes, I do get that anxiety when I feel something building up, But in my head, I'm also like, Okay, this isn't this isn't real, Like you got to back it down a little bit. Yeah, but yeah, I mean there was trauma in what happened. So anytime there's, you know, any sort of conflict, I'm going to have to over the years learn how to back myself off that ledge knowing you know that that's not where we're going here, So chill out a little bit, right, But she's meeting you in a different place too, very much like the vulnerability piece. Yes, even I've even noticed with you in friendship, just the openness and the vulnerability I really imagine, Well, it is, it's huge, and it matters because you're such a special human being that it's like to guard yourself as no one, Like it doesn't do any of us any good, Like we need to know all of you trust you, But it's true. So like I feel like, because I'm an anxious attached, jan is an anxious attached, I'm a graduated anxious attack. I'm saying we could default. We could, that's where we default. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm anxious. I might be in severely independent anxious attached, but you're so independent at the same time, well that's what I well, the other wing is avoiding. Yeah, you just I'm avoiding yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, But like I know that when oh bless the same. Um. I just feel like in the anxious attachment, if I can become more vulnerable, there's just all sorts of walls that go down when you say what you want, what you need, what you feel. So I feel like it probably lessens that anxious attachment because you have a little security knowing like she's going to lean into you a little bit too, you don't have to be so scared. Well, I'll say the number one thing that opened my eyes more than anything, Like I've always been a believer, but there was always this hostility between me and God that this is the one thing I want God, why won't you let this happen? Like all I want is a close relationship with my wife, and it's just getting further and further apart. So when she did come back and things change so abruptly, it was the most eye opening experience in my spiritual walk that I've ever experienced. So just knowing that, you know, I always knew God could intervene, but I was always pissed off. Why wouldn't he, And when it did happen, it blew my mind to a point where I'm like, Okay, well now I truly believe anything and everything is possible. Yeah. Well, I think that's where the piece where, Like there was there was other reasons that I um to this story, but I think for people that are divorced, when I heard, I was like, well, why didn't got an intervene in my marriage? Sure? You know, and like that, like like how does he get to pick which one? Yeah? He picks, you know, And so then you question that too, like it's like from questioning to questioning, and then it just like you're trying to make sense of it. You know. That's the one thing I learned in all this. You can't make sense of it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I think he just knows better than us, and I think he knows who ends up better on the other end and who does it? You know? Yeah, oh for sure of it. But yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, I'll never forget. I had an absolute I can't believe I'm saying this, but had an absolute emotional melt down the night she came over and we had that conversation like, I sobbed like I've never experienced in my entire life, to the point like three days later my stomach still hurt, and it was a whole mixed bag of yes, relief, but more just the awe of what God can do. Like that's the first time I'd ever really experienced what I felt was answered prayers answered prayers. Yeah, yeah, Wow. What would you say to the people that are kind of struggling have struggled. It's very similar to your marriage. What would be one piece that they can kind of walk away with that you think that they could take from this to keep ongoing and keep maybe to go to go down this road that you guys are on. Go first. But that's hard for me. I think the number one thing for me obviously, and everyone's different, but is the vulnerability piece. Just be vulnerable and see where it leads you. Yeah, and just be vulnerable, see where it leads you. It's beautiful. That's really I think intentionality in yourself, you know, seriously, do the work on you, because when you're struggling, it's not because the other person is because of both of you, you know, so you need to focus on you in making the changes that will be beneficial to you as a full couple. But on the other side of that, you have to make acknowledgements when your partners trying to do those things as well, because you have to have those little victories throughout otherwise you'll just give up. Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean I love you obviously both love you guys so much. So this is I mean, I love this story, love you. I just want to say I called it. And just like we always say, like marriage is hard, it's the grass is not always greener. On the other side, everyone's going to have something. And keep on working on yourself, keep on being honest, telling the truth, and um you know yeah, like keep looking in the mirror. And that's a wrap.

Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. So we have Um. We teased us on the last episode because I was talking about well, I mean, Kat obviously has been very open about her journey in her marriage on the podcast, and we've had Nick and Catherine on I would say, oh, man, like four years ago maybe on wine Down, and so to have them back come full circle in this setting, it's going to be really fun. And I'm very excited to have Nick Woodard and Catherine Woodard on the podcast today. Hi, babe, hike, I'm uncomfortable, can't I I don't think it's possible to make me uncomfortable. I think because you're you're already so open to begin with, yeah, just tell you how it is? Well then well then yeah, fun, you want to go Cherson first? Well, now you start, because I though you've known the journey intimately. Well, I would just like to say, let's back it up for a second and let's start from the beginning. Um, Nick, I'll have you start, Um, when how did you and Catherine meet? Where did you guys meet? And when did you know she was the one? Are we going to be? Uh? Well, are we going to be one? Win? Down. You're unapologetically honest, so welcome. Well, after after I graduated college, Um, I was living in my sister's basement here in in Brentwood. And would you go to college again Middle Tennessee State? Okay, would you study marketing? Oh? Well yeah, okay, Um, at least you followed you. Wow, okay. I don't know anybody that has a degree that's specific to actually what they're doing. No. I was like, okay, you do. Well, that's why you guys are married. Continue music business? What music business? Oh well, I mean you go to college. Yeah, I know. Anyway, move on, cliff notes Nick though okay, he was like, it was night nine. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna need another hot tea for this one. Uh. The short answer to the story is my Space. Oh, top four. She worked her way into the top four? Wow? How did you meet her on my Space? Though? A friend of a friend. I don't even know. I don't remember how that how that works? Like A found her attractive, so I friended her, but let it be known, she contacted me first. It's just like the sliding in the DM situation. But I think I did slide first. We were sliding before sliding was cool? Uh huh wait and she did first? She did? Yeah, I think I did, because you just saw him. Well, we went to school together, so I knew who he was. Huh, and church together, so like I knew who he was, and he dated a girl that I cheered with and like all those things. So yeah, I slid in and I played football with her her older brother for I don't know what two three years. So you guys dated for how long before you guys got married? I don't know, bid. It was pretty quick? Um ten months, ten months? So you got married? No, no, we got engaged, sorry, ten months engaged and then married four months later, four months later. I'll last back then at this point, right, because four and a half months twenty especially back then, I feel like you there was longer engagement. They happened, Yes, they happened. The venue that I wanted happened to have like a date. And the truth comes up and remains on brand in her story already perfect. Why are we surprised? I was like, done, we'll make it work. I was like, well, we're going to do this. So whether it's you know, quickly, you're taking our time. So you got married at twenty I was twenty three, right, Yes, I was twenty three. He was twenty six. Yeah, something like that in that range. Okay, and then you had your first kid at hold twenty five twenty five. Wow, that's like all of our Michigan front. I was just going to say, this is the Michigander life crime engagement. Babies is how we were all, um, which is what I wanted. I wanted to be like a young mom doing it twenty four. I definitely didn't do that. I didn't want that. No, no, no, ma'am here in mc guinness book a World Records. Baby. Okay, So you had your first son, who's just I mean, he's might as well be thirty. Like that's insane. Um, not because of how old you guys are. I'm saying because you guys showed a picture and I'm like, he's so old I know, and he's so responsible. We just had this conversation last night. It's like he doesn't need us at all. Like he would be fine, I said last night, Like he could get his own apartment. Yeah, he which is great. I mean that's like, no, it's so good. But yeah, um, okay, So Nick, I have a question for you okay, what was or if you could pinpoint the first moment you remember distance growing in your relationship ooh um. Probably probably the stereotypical. You know, once you have kids, especially at a young age. You know, we were both i'll say, starting our careers, you know, trying to grow your career, and then you bring kids into the mix. And what Emmy was only what a couple of years after Caden, So like all we knew for the longest time was the grind. You know, as you're you're both trying to do your your careers, you're both trying to advance, you're taking care of kids. Um, you know, she would travel some, so I would take some responsibilities, um solo, and then you know vice versa. We we always kind of shared everything. And then your focus is so just hurry, hurry and busy and taking care of kids that I think sometimes you kind of I don't say forget, but you're so overwhelmed with the day to day that maybe you start to back off of those very necessary things in order to grow in your own relationship together. Necessary things being yeah, date nights and intentionality. Yeah, I'd say, just you get overwhelmed with stuff and you just you get into some patterns that you know, on face value don't seem to be detrimental, but over the course of time can be. And Catherine, what about for you, like, was there can you can you pinpoint a specific memory or moment that you kind of was like, Oh, we're not this isn't like we're not as close as we once were. It's funny because him saying that, I'm like, well, I guess that's true, but I don't. I never saw it that way, which is so interesting to hear that. For me, it was the obvious starting to argue, starting to fight. Year seven, very memorable seven San Diego. Yes, the big fight, the big San Diego fight was my big memory for sure. You want to talk about it, yeah, I mean I just know. I don't even remember the whole detail around it. I just know that we were on a plane with you, we talked about going to San Diego. I don't even remember what he did that upset me so much, though, the sad thing and that funny something about not wanting to go or not wanting to spend the money, and I just wanted him to like want to go or to surprise me. It was something about wanting him to want of course, and we just had on the way home from the airport, we argued. We got home, we were it was the first time we had truly fought in front of the kids, and like really bad, Like I asked him to leave, he refused to leave. So I'm like sitting there holding my I mean, it was dramatic, like very dramatic, and I was like, this can't be. But I mean, I'm sure obviously there was things before that that we were already growing apart. We're already you know, building up before that. But that's my memory. Do you think from San Diego you started, was that the shift that you started to kind of push away even more? Yeah, And my biggest thing was the kids. I was like, we can't fight like this in front of the kids anymore. So then I just kind of started to shut down. So what's the timeline between San Diego and the decision? And we obviously want to get more detailed into how the decision to split or separate, But what's the timeline between San Diego and the separation? How many years of living in that feeling? Eight? Yeah? Yeah, eight a lot? Yeah, And that feels heavy, like just even like, that's heavy, that's almost a decade. And in those points, are you guys sharing with each other that you feel distant? Is it? And I'm asking these questions because I know I can speak on behalf of myself, but I probably can confidently speak on behalf of Jana too. In certain relationships, like you just start to shut down, or there's resentment building, or maybe there's you're not saying what you want, what you need, what you feel like. Are you is this the switch where you start to like make the file folder where you're just putting in like in this I don't like and that I don't like, Or are you living in a space of like, Okay, I can tell something's wrong and I'm trying to move us and it just feels like you're not clicking. I'd say kind of a mix of all of it. I mean, we did couples therapy at the time, and it wasn't working well for us. We would leave there. The last time we went to couples therapy, we left and we were like basically like we're either getting divorced or we're sweeping this under the rug. Yeah, And so we just said it was just creating more issues and not not to say that therapy does that, because I think therapy is great. Yeah, you know, y'all here know me. I'll talk to anybody about anything. But I think if you don't have the right fit, it can be detrimental. And I think we were kind of in a situation where I don't know, I guess we did ultimately want to change, but I think we went into therapy figuring out how to make the other person change instead of going in with the focus on you. I think we kind of had the wrong mindset and just the way I am was, Hey, I made this commitment. We're in this together. Whether I enjoy it or not, this is the commitment I made. I'm going to see it through. And happiness is not necessarily a part of the commitment. You know, Happiness comes and goes. But with that said, it was yeah, well it was a struggle for many, many years, but deep down we always knew we had something amazing in there. We just had to tap into it. Katherine, you're trumping, well, I was thinking about us doing couples therapy and how that didn't work for us us. I think a lot of it for us, And I'm not like pointing fingers or doing anything. It was I had the very obvious childhood wounds. Um, I acknowledged those and when they were coming out, so it was like, let's go to couples therapy and fix Catherine. I felt that way and he definitely felt that way. And it was one of those we got into it, and again I wasn't in a place to necessarily make changes. I was aware, but not to make changes. And he was in a place of well, my family was perfect and I'm perfect, and that was just perfect were very you know, obvious. Mine were a little bit deeper. Literally. The therapist would be like, so nake about and he's like, my family's perfect. And I was tell us about a childhood you do you have you know, some stuff you you dealt with as a child, And I was like, well, my parents were at every game ever played. Dad told me loved me all the time. So did mom. I was always hugged on, loved on. No, pretty good, That's how that went. So I was like, yeah, I've done. I feel like this is a copy paste of my couple therapy. I'm like, so here's my open giant winds and my husband's like, who's awesome? I basically in the fifty sitcom and I'm like, cool, I'll head out. I just thought we had to address that because I think that like it's not but it's common. I mean it has to feel at that point too, like how to eat an elephant when bite at a time, right, Like you sit down and you lay out what you need to work through, and then you're like, okay, we already have seven eight years under us, you know, or whatever ten years at that point, and then you have to go, how do we deconstruct to reconstruct? And let's just do all of that in like one hour. And then let's also go back to parenting kids, three kids full time and working, both of you working full time, like it takes a it's exhausting, and it's not easy work in there, exhausting. In the eight years that you guys were in that let's sweep or let's shove down, push it down, push push, push, push, push, push push. I want to ask both of you what was the number one need that wasn't met? And I want you to go a step deeper than just like we know that you know, okay, maybe there wasn't as much sexual activity, but I think it always goes like for me, like when my X wasn't having sex with me, the I was so upset, but it was the underneath or feeling of yeah, I'm not loved or I'm not chosen. So I'm curious what that was for you and what that was for you For me? Um, you know, the intimate intimacy aspect. Yes, sex is a part of it, but that's again, that's one one little factor. It was the it was the connectiveness, the the you know, wanting her to show that she needed me. You know, I'm wired like every other guy. I want to be a provider. I want to I want to be needed. Um. You know, she's a very independent woman, so, which is what attracted me to her in the first place. But when you start to get to a place where you're like, wow, I could die tomorrow and she'd pick right up and be fine. Yeah, that's that's a hard pick. Do you honestly believe that I did at the time? Yeah, Katherine, how does that make you feel? I mean I knew he felt that way, and if I'm being completely honest, I think part of me was like, yeah, I could, you know, totally, like I've been built my whole life trying to be independent, like this is me. You know, it's a shame you and I don't have anything in common. I know, I'm so over here like wow, well no, I mean it's so truecause because I remember, like even during those eight years you're like eyep, I was looking at apartments and I'm like, it's like you you just you've always been like you know business, I can handle this and I can do this, and like it's a beautiful quality. At the same time, that piece, I think when you guys did separate, I'm like, I'm like, oh, I don't want you to ever to be alone because I'm like, I know maybe you say you're okay to be alone, but I'm like, are you though forever? Like you know, I'm like, I want you to find love again and I want you to feel loved and because you deserve that. So that piece, I was like, that was my most like I was scared for you. On that piece. I didn't want you just to like not find love again and just like be like I can do this by myself. Independence, I think is just such a blessing and a curse. It truly is like I've learned that for sure. For me. Oh, that's a hard one, you know, me, it's hard to dig deeper. Let's dig deeper, Okay. I think for me, my biggest wasn't necessarily what I needed from him, because I couldn't pinpoint that I didn't know what I needed from him. But I know my issue was that I felt like a failure, Like I just felt like, well, he's over here saying I need X Y and Z needs I don't really know what I need, and I'm just over here not being able to accommodate those needs or not wanting to or not feeling like I should be more like I grew up with no physical touch and he wants physical touch, and I'm like, I'm at a point where I don't even know how to like, you know, like hold your hand, you know, Like I didn't see that, and so I just felt like a shut down failure. So it wasn't necessarily that I'm over here like, well he's not giving me x Y and Z. I used some of those things as excuses, like I'd be like, well, you didn't set up date night, or you didn't do this, or you didn't do that, But truly it was just a wall was up because I didn't know how to do what I knew I needed to do well. And I'm sure the more he pushed, the more you shut off. Yes, well I was going to say that, like I became someone that I wasn't. Yes, so over the years, like I became needy. I attached me. Absolutely, Yeah, we were that. Yeah, so you're you're we were the same human like it made me cleany, made me like, you know, and then she can pick up on the fact that you know, I'm doing something for an agenda, like all right, we got to go on a date night, so you know, if I do this for her, then she'll do it. Just became like a poker game. Um, and you can both feel that, but you're not saying it right exactly, You're just being that way. Yeah. Oh and then I we did figure this out in therapy. Well, I finally admitted it. I would create a fight, so like if we were going to go on to date night, I would sabotage it. I would like come up with something and I would just create a fight. So then it was like, okay, great, now we can go back to our respective court alone. Yeah, you go to this room right am over here. Ship that in work diary. So then what was the what was the um the switch for you, Catherine to go, Okay, I'm filing for divorce. I started doing my own therapy, which was so much more beneficial for me than a couple of therapy, not knocking couples therapy, but my own journey. And my big thing was I was living what I lived. My kids were living what I lived as a child, and that was killing me. Like they're not seeing affection, They're not seeing us love each other, go on dates, you know, do all these things. They're just seeing two independent people do their own thing. We're getting along at this point, we're not fighting really, but like this isn't what I want for my kids. So that put me back into therapy, and I was like, I'm a very decisive person. Usually I hate living in the gray. I hate, you know, and I was living there for so long. So finally I was just like I have to make a decision, like it is, something has to happen. And it was kind of like there were two hards in front of me. They both are a lot of work, and so I just kind of made a decision and then I think I was convinced it was the right decision for sure. Let me add a little something to that though, like you are, our situation was that's what made it feel so weird when we were going through it. It's like we still were the best of friends. There was just something that was not connecting. Well, I think too, Like every time we've had a conversation, she'd be like, he didn't. He's not a cheater, he's not a nucle he didn't. He doesn't drink, he's not He's an amazing dad. Like she's like, it's like you were trying to find a reason for the last eight years almost to be like, Okay, that doesn't make it makes sense, to make it makes sense, why the disconnect is there, or to leave right or I wanted him to do it right because like you know, my mom was the one that left my dad, and I'm like, I don't want to be the mom that makes the decision. That was the biggest piece for me. It was like a standoff, who's going to budge first? Well, and you I remember coming to the gym and you know, we we were having a conversation and I'm like, but Nick, that's not a way to live either, Like Nope, I'm never going to divorce her. I'm like, so you're just gonna be unhappy for the rest of your life. Well, I'll not have your needs met, push it all down and die first. That that was the plan. And I was like, but that's not okay either. I'm like, I love both of you, and y'all are fucking miserable, right, Like it's okay that you didn't do this or she didn't do that, Like you guys are just not happy together, and like it's okay to walk away, Like you deserve happiness, she deserves happiness. I think again, it's maybe that's a difference in upbringing in that type situation, but it was very much like, Okay, what's what's the hardest here? Me me pushing it all down and just dealing with it internally, or you know, my kids having two separate homes and do like so and again there you kind of go into far extremes in your head, like if we stay together, it's going to be this way and we're going to continue to go down this horrible path. If we break it off, then you know, oh my god, my kids aren't going to have a family. And it's it's so you kind of go to extremes both ways. So the easiest thing to do is nothing like status quo, right, just keep it how it is, which isn't right by any means, but well, the vulnerability it takes at that point to lean into each other and get out of your own way and out of each other's way and just like lean in, it's just not even really an option at that point. Like it's like it definitely didn't feel like it was for sure. Yeah, so then what was the thought for you, Catherine, to go, wait a minute, maybe I'm making a mistake. You know. It's interesting because when we weren't together, we got along so well. I mean, it was like everybody around us, like, what the hell are you doing? Ago? Can I just say that? Preston and I were at home and he's like, this isn't gonna last. And I was like their marriage and he's like, no, them being a part. Maybe they're not supposed to be divorced, and I was like, I feel it too, I'm confused. We felt like your kids. All of us were like explaining this stuff. You saying something Timmy, lets yeah, you were like you, I don't know what it is, but you guys had too much respect and too much love. Like I was like, at the heart of this, you have what it takes to be for forever. There's just some icky surfacy stuff like we got to clean up or something, but no one, no one goes through a divorce, like y'all were going through a divorce, and I'm just like, like, what do you want, baked, Yeah, take that, that's fine. You need something. I'm like, we do the most mutual admiration like moment, and I do think that exists in divorces somewhere, but like eventually it kep. Yeah, I do, but like for it to just be I was like, all of a sudden, like I'm like, maybe I'll just need different rooms or something, because it just feels like a whole spaces all you're really wanting the dating. We got different rooms, I got a whole new house for a couple of months, but yeah, I moved out, you know, the whole thing. And Kat was you know, you were here here, here, she was outstairs where Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think so we were getting along so well and I think we truly figured out in that time that like being best friends never left, you know. That was always there. That was always the common thread. It was just you know, the the being in a relationship part of it. Um. But honestly, like it took it. I hate to say it. It took us dating other people for me to like really go whoa whoa way to men, Nat get out there and you show them that's your man girl. Yeah. But I very specifically remember Kristen of here talking about one of your episodes turning Cat into the wild in the right direction. I remember getting a text from Nick going, well, now listen to your podcast anymore, and I'm like, I'm so sorry. We're just trying to make her like, you know, like happy, Like you need to go be wild too if you want. Like it was hard playing the like friends to both yah, you know what I mean, because I'm like, I want you to be happy, but I want you to be happy and then you know, and then sometimes dating helps you get back out there and feel like, oh, I'm not going to be alone forever or like I'm good. I think yeah, I think we can all agree that Kat was never gonna be Cat in the wild wild, you know, me getting away and every I spent a lot of times fishing like those three or four months. It was just I needed. Ninety percent of the time I was alone, just processing, Okay, what's the future look like, what's you know, what's going to happen moving forward? Um? But what that said, it was such a weird feeling because in my gut I knew it wasn't over. So then that's interesting because I remember when we were sitting up back and I said, what if she asked for you back? And you're like, now I'm done? When when once I get past a point, I'm done. Well, I remember very specifically what I said to you. You were like, you know, what if she comes about? And I said, unless there is an act of God and a fundamental change in our relationship, I can't go back through that again. And nothing shy of an act of God and fundamental change, I mean, and pursing you date other people potentially because she realized And sometimes that's what it takes to see like oh wait a minute, no, that A that's my man, and B like you don't know what you have until you like that's saying. There's a saying for a reason. My favor saying now is um, sometimes people don't know what you bring to the table. Till they see you doing your thing at another table. But yeah, you know what that said. I always knew at some point, you know, Yes, I'm a relationship guy, So I was obviously going to be looking for the things that I felt that I didn't have. And I always knew at some point, you know, I was going to meet somebody that wanted something more than I was able to give. You some point, someone's gonna want me to love them fully, and I knew that I would never be able to do that because I was still in love with Catherine. So that was my biggest fear going You know, this relationship didn't work, but the next one is not going to work either, because I can't give them what they're gonna want because he was putting me first. And that the other one I sense a little it's a little little nat geo. It's a little out in the wild Mike instinct. She did get cat wild. She did. We just didn't see that coming. So you were so to walk us through that piece. Then, like, what was the conversation you had with Nick to kind of get him back or say hey, whoopsies. Yeah, So it started with no, no, It started with like a very vulnerable conversation, not yet realizing that I fully wanted him back. But it started with a very vulnerable like I need to tell you that you were a good dad, Like you did everything you could as a husband, Like I needed to have that conversation with him. And yes, it also evolved around someone else who was evolved, and you know, it was a conversation but like you're my best friend, and like we're co parenting, and like this person doesn't get to come in between. You know, there was a lot of that, and it was the most vulnerable I'd been in a long time. That was the first conversation. But I think we still thought he was moving down that path and we were staying, you know, divorced. And then I kind of had to evaluate my feelings around it. I'm like, why am I so bothered by this? Why do I feel like is it just because I'm jealous? Is it just like And I really had to evaluate my feelings on it, and then honestly, it was for me, it was just such an act of God. It was like in church something he said. I was just like, do you remember he said, it was the day you remember calling crying? Right, we are picking up The crazy thing is she sent me the clip of that sermon. I was like, yeah, I didn't pick up on anything, but it was something that rocks well because you saw it. It It was something about like, and people may not agree with this, but like Christians don't just we don't just throw away marriages, basically not saying like if there's reasons and stuff like that, but we truly, to me, never really had that like blow up a reason or whatever. And it was something along that. It was something along the lines of not just throwing away a marriage. And my kids were there and I was just like, oh, it was awful, and he was like, oh, yeah, the kids will be fine, blah blah blah. I'm like, no, no no, no, I need to come over. We need to talk, you know, and it just kind of switched for me, and it was just kind of like this moment, and so I just went over there and like started talking, and he was, you know, at first, hesitant, you know, as as he should be, you know, and I didn't want to hurt him further. So it was very much just a conversation of like, I'm having these thoughts. I don't feel like we did everything that we could have, but I don't want to hurt you. I don't want you to have to go through this again. So what do you think? You know? And I just kind of sat there and he was quiet. Well, I tell, I told, I've said this depression too. I'm like, I think anytime you rebuild anything, half of it fifty This is I want to remind everyone I have a PhD in so but like for me, fifty percent of it is a decided heart and the other fifty is figuring out why you do what you do. And I just feel like you had the fifty percent trying to figure out why you do what you do. But like once there's a decided heart, especially with a brain like yours, Yeah, it's I mean it's on the power point at that point. And you're done. So now that you guys are reconciled and back together, you Okay, Catherine did not get divorced. My kids, we or Ramsey still thinks we did. But it's okay, we've got to get there. You were about to right like it was going to be on Monday. Yeah, yeah, the next day, so you're not. So. Catherine is not divorced. They just had a little bit of a separation we're going to we're not. Now, what are you most aware of moving forward so that you don't fall back? Well, this is hard because I feel like the honeymoon stage is kind of over right, um sneaking around, Yeah, good time. But even at home there was still a honeymoon stage. I feel like for a while now life is busy as crap again. We're every which way and we're and it's easy to fall back in. I mean, I think some habits are starting to creep back in a little bit, Like which ones like that are that we're glad to. Yeah, when I first moved back in, like we were spending every single night together watching TV together. They're like, but the way we're both wired is we need us time. You know, we're I've got clients pulling at me, She's got you, you guys are Actually she's a client of both here. So I think at this point it's just being intentional with it and you know, kind of checking in, like like she'll come in and be like, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna watch my show tonight. You good, We're good. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. So I think the intentionality and being aware of those things that, you know, don't let it become habitual as much as it wasn't the past. Right, Yeah, I agree with that, and I think we're very aware of it and we are just talking. You know, before we never talked, so now we're talking about it a lot. And there are definitely been certain triggers that have come up for both of us. Oh yeah, absolutely that we've had to talk through. You know, like I got upset about something and then he autumn radically goes so I can't go back to that place, you know, and I'm like, it's fine, Like it's not that, you know. So there's little triggers that will come up every now and then that we just kind of have to talk through. But so do you kind of get scared that she's going to be like I can't do this anymore, I want to divorce again or something. Do I get scared? No, Like, I don't think it'll ever go to that again. The anxiousness died a little bit. It died a little bit because well, it's like my brain's telling you know, I'm a very emotional person. So yes, I do get that anxiety when I feel something building up, But in my head, I'm also like, Okay, this isn't this isn't real, Like you got to back it down a little bit. Yeah, but yeah, I mean there was trauma in what happened. So anytime there's, you know, any sort of conflict, I'm going to have to over the years learn how to back myself off that ledge knowing you know that that's not where we're going here, So chill out a little bit, right, But she's meeting you in a different place too, very much like the vulnerability piece. Yes, even I've even noticed with you in friendship, just the openness and the vulnerability I really imagine, Well, it is, it's huge, and it matters because you're such a special human being that it's like to guard yourself as no one, Like it doesn't do any of us any good, Like we need to know all of you trust you, But it's true. So like I feel like, because I'm an anxious attached, jan is an anxious attached, I'm a graduated anxious attack. I'm saying we could default. We could, that's where we default. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm anxious. I might be in severely independent anxious attached, but you're so independent at the same time, well that's what I well, the other wing is avoiding. Yeah, you just I'm avoiding yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, But like I know that when oh bless the same. Um. I just feel like in the anxious attachment, if I can become more vulnerable, there's just all sorts of walls that go down when you say what you want, what you need, what you feel. So I feel like it probably lessens that anxious attachment because you have a little security knowing like she's going to lean into you a little bit too, you don't have to be so scared. Well, I'll say the number one thing that opened my eyes more than anything, Like I've always been a believer, but there was always this hostility between me and God that this is the one thing I want God, why won't you let this happen? Like all I want is a close relationship with my wife, and it's just getting further and further apart. So when she did come back and things change so abruptly, it was the most eye opening experience in my spiritual walk that I've ever experienced. So just knowing that, you know, I always knew God could intervene, but I was always pissed off. Why wouldn't he, And when it did happen, it blew my mind to a point where I'm like, Okay, well now I truly believe anything and everything is possible. Yeah. Well, I think that's where the piece where, Like there was there was other reasons that I um to this story, but I think for people that are divorced, when I heard, I was like, well, why didn't got an intervene in my marriage? Sure? You know, and like that, like like how does he get to pick which one? Yeah? He picks, you know, And so then you question that too, like it's like from questioning to questioning, and then it just like you're trying to make sense of it. You know. That's the one thing I learned in all this. You can't make sense of it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I think he just knows better than us, and I think he knows who ends up better on the other end and who does it? You know? Yeah, oh for sure of it. But yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, I'll never forget. I had an absolute I can't believe I'm saying this, but had an absolute emotional melt down the night she came over and we had that conversation like, I sobbed like I've never experienced in my entire life, to the point like three days later my stomach still hurt, and it was a whole mixed bag of yes, relief, but more just the awe of what God can do. Like that's the first time I'd ever really experienced what I felt was answered prayers answered prayers. Yeah, yeah, Wow. What would you say to the people that are kind of struggling have struggled. It's very similar to your marriage. What would be one piece that they can kind of walk away with that you think that they could take from this to keep ongoing and keep maybe to go to go down this road that you guys are on. Go first. But that's hard for me. I think the number one thing for me obviously, and everyone's different, but is the vulnerability piece. Just be vulnerable and see where it leads you. Yeah, and just be vulnerable, see where it leads you. It's beautiful. That's really I think intentionality in yourself, you know, seriously, do the work on you, because when you're struggling, it's not because the other person is because of both of you, you know, so you need to focus on you in making the changes that will be beneficial to you as a full couple. But on the other side of that, you have to make acknowledgements when your partners trying to do those things as well, because you have to have those little victories throughout otherwise you'll just give up. Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean I love you obviously both love you guys so much. So this is I mean, I love this story, love you. I just want to say I called it. And just like we always say, like marriage is hard, it's the grass is not always greener. On the other side, everyone's going to have something. And keep on working on yourself, keep on being honest, telling the truth, and um you know yeah, like keep looking in the mirror. And that's a wrap.