Wind down with Janet and her radio podcast. Okay, so we know that obviously what we're talking about today UM can be considered a controversial topic and there's a lot of misinformation, and our intention is not to spread misinformation. UM. We just want to allow our guests that we have on today to give their opinions and have a discussion. UM. That being said, we do not pretend to be doctors or scientists or give medical advice. We just wanted to have this conversation. But we encourage y'all to do your research, consult with your health care professional. UM. We know that there are many opinions, and we will continue the conversation UM and educate ourselves UM, within our marriage and our UM and you know, with with our kids. UM. You know, we obviously have Robert Kenney Jr. Joining us today on the show, and we also have a UM doctor, Dr. A Malkin, UM who's going to just be on the other side of things because we want there to there's always, you know, two sides, and we believe that both voices deserve to be heard. Yeah. I think it's just our job as citizens and as people right on any kind of topic that can be passionate and controversial is to just gather information and that's all we're doing on this episode. We just want to give different sides of the coin, allow people to make up their own minds, and you know, to not be um mean about it or post negative comments. It's just again, UM, there's so many things out there right now, lots of misinformation. So we just we got the two best that we know to kind of debunk certain things, um and express their thoughts and their feelings. And don't worry, we'll be back to our regular scheduled programming of Mike and Jana fighting next week. So until then, UM, let's get on with the show. And just a disclaimer because we're going there. The views and opinions express are solely of the individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent the opinions of I Heart Media or its employees. This podcast should not be used as medical advice or as imparting any healthcare recommendations at all. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical counseling, advice, intoit therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, choices regarding vaccinations, mental health issues, health inquiry, or matter, including matters discussed on this podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussing the podcast, and shall not act or refrain from acting based on information contained the podcast without first seeking independent medical advice. And that goes as well for all the advice we give you in our marriage, because the Lord knows we don't know what we're doing, but we're just going on. We don't know what we don't know. So take everything you're hear here for what it is. You know, I was even talking to my mother earlier. Why do you say it like that? I hope that. I hope our kids never say my mother earlier, my mommy, you my mommy. I do I want you to say, I'm talking to mommy earlier, mommy earlier, And I was telling her who we are having on today? And it's just you know, even for I think any generation is like like we're now legit, like you guys are actually this is actually your job. Okay, Um, we have a Kennedy on today, yes, um, very excited and um I also have two of my high school girlfriends joining us, Chelsea and Andrea say hello, hello, thanks for having us. Of course, so we um we did an episode a few weeks ago that involved UM. We talked to Dr Oz and just a few questions, and I gotta say I had Andrea looked through some of the comments, but some of the comments on the podcast were pretty rough. Really. Yeah. They said that, you know, our job is like that we were kind of like misinforming. And I think the issue is we were to talk about a lot of things, right, but we also want to have different sides of the story, just like you know how we have different therapists come on in different opinions, and you know, Dr Oz was four vaccinations, and you know, you have the other side saying that it's dangerous for us to even talk about the other side. And you know, I feel like that's where we're doing a disservice too, because I think both sides need to be heard. And I was reading some of my comments and two of my high school girlfriends UM had tagged uh Robert Kennedy Jr. In one of my posts and said that we should get him on the podcast to talk about the opposite side of vaccinations. And I thought it was obviously in an interesting idea, UM, because there is such a some information for one side. And then the other UM. So that's how Andrea and Chelsea are now on this podcast with us UM and y'all have a lot of information on on Mr Kennedy. Don't you sure this is the same come true to be able to speak with him. He's one of the most knowledgeable people out there on vaccine safety and legislator, and he's worked to fight against huge major companies just all in the name of children's rights, which is fantastic. I commend you guys for bringing this up. A lot of people won't touch this topic, and I do think it's so important to tell both sides of the story right, to give people a chance, give them the resources, give them the information, give them a chance to make the decision that's best for their family that they believe. And so you know, you're never going to make everyone happy. I get that, but I really applied you guys for doing that. So why do you guys think subjects as this where people their beliefs. It almost seems like it's either right or wrong. Right, Like it's almost like Republican first Democrat. Why is this topic, in y'all's opinions, such a topic that it's like when someone believes the other majority of people, it seems like, are like, well, that's clearly wrong. Why would you believe that? H In my opinion, I think it's because we're going to our doctors, right, And it's really our doctors that are telling us this is what we need to do. Your kind of mandated to do these shots for your kids to go to school. And so I think we're just trusting the people that are advising our health for our children. And also in media comes out and gives you all the ads and everything that's pushing that they're safe. So I think it's really hard to unlearn something that you've been indoctrinating with really your whole life. If you've grown up knowing I have to get my vaccines, these are gonna make me healthy, this is gonna make me safe. I think it's really hard, which is why we commend you so much for actually been looking into this, because it's very eye opening once you start reading about it, and it's hard. It's really hard to wrap your mind around something that you believed your whole life is safe to find out that it might not be. And and here's here's what I believe. I believe that the people that are in the positions that Chelsea and I aron where they've really challenged vaccines and they've done the research, they feel strongly about it because we feel like the other side hasn't done that research, because honestly, I don't know many people that can do truly do that research, read the studies, find the wholes, find the lies, and still pour it vaccinated so strongly to your point, might like with the emotion and with so much conviction, like I am just it's to me it was very compelling, and I mean Chelsea and I were pretty logical, pretty rational, well educated people. Like It's not like I think it just surprises people. They think that people who you know, challenge vaccinations aren't in their circles, you know, they think that there's these people they don't know, who are these crazy people like that are just you know, they're children are getting sick all the time, infecting others, And it's like, I think actually some of the friends in our circles were shocked to learn that we were quote those people, right, we were the people that are actually challenging vaccines and haven't necessarily followed the full schedule with our children. And I think two people are very surprised to find out how healthy unvaccinated children are. And I think it's hard for people to say, like, what I did everything right? I did everything my doctor said, why is my child always sick? But you're the one who's supposed to have the sick child because you're not doing it. So I think it's just a lot of understanding and researching, but people need to change their entire way of thinking. And my lunch side, it's like, once I started really researching and seeing the hard facts, it's like, this is this is just almost a crime against humanity. What's going on? The last thing is just it's also people are super defensive. It's their children, and nobody want to maybe they made a decision for their children that is maybe going to post problems for them later in life, or that they had if they didn't have like a severe bad reaction immediately, like maybe it's gonna So of course everybody's defensive about that. We're all trying to make the best issuerson for our children. You know, right, what inspired both of you too to start going down this this direction? Right? What was the one thing that kind of sparked it for you to be like, wait a second, I don't know about this. Yeah I I can, Yeah, I can start so. Um. So, when I had my daughter, she's three now, we were living in California, and California at the time was a state that only allowed medical exemptions, meaning you could only be exempt from certain vaccines if you had a medical reason and a note from your doctor stating that. So whereas other states will allow like personal belief exemptions and religious exemptions, so you can claim that as a reason for which you're not vaccinating or fully vaccinating your child. So at the time, you know, even when I was pregnant, I started looking into it because I'm a type of person that if there's any debate on a topic, I want to know both sides, I want to do my research and I want to come to my own conclusion. I started looking into it, and to be honest, I didn't found I didn't find all the research that I ended up finding a couple of years later or a year later, but I found some and it was enough to to basically direct me to a pediatrician or lead me to a pediatrician that allowed a staggered schedule or like a delayed schedule. So for the first year my daughter's life. We lived in California and we were vaccinating on a very delayed schedule. Then when we moved back to Michigan, a state that allowed all exemptions personal, religious, and medical, when I tried to find a pediatrician, the first question they all asked me was are you fully vaccinating? And I was like, well, no, but you know, and so then it really prompted me to dig in further. And what I found then was like, just to me, I was like, I was astounded. I mean, I would read books and my heart would be racing because then I would look at certain things that had happened with my daughter, and they weren't major reactions, thankfully, but there were little things along the way that I was like, wow, was that because of the vaccines we gave her. So what I did at that point was, I mean, I really I dove in. I found Children's Health Defense, I found Robert Kennedy. I watched his videos, and I mean I was just shocked, and like, I know that Robert will hit on a couple of the high points, but the two that really I guess stuck with me that I want to call out is the metals, like the ingredients and there's a lot of ingredients that there are that I have challenges with, but one is aluminum. It's a known neurotoxin. And one example that I feel like is so poignant because this information comes from the CDC website, it comes from the FDA. One of the popular versions of the heppy shot that's given to infants less than twenty four hours old, has point to milligrams of aluminum minute if you look at per If you look at the FDA website, it says the safe amount that's allowed in drinking water of aluminum is point to milligrams per leader. Yet per milli leader of the vaccine, there's point five milligrams of aluminum. So, like, how can you trust the fact that this information you're getting from the FDA directly negates what's happening with the CDC and the information that's in the vaccine they want you to give your child at twenty four hours old. That blew my mind. Then the other one that I'm sure Robert Robert will touch on is the fact that in the law was passed that basically took all liability away from vaccine manufacturers because they went to the government and said vaccines are unavoidably unsafe, and there's too much liability for us in this business. You need to protect us and at that point free from all liability. So imagine you have a car seat for your child. If you knew that that sheet manufacturer was exempt from liability, would you use that car seat for your child? That's that's the analogy we use. So it is because it just like any product anything, And if you knew that a bunch of chill like then that we are using for because climbing out of this crib. I just the one disclaimer I want to make though, is like this is truly this is a very personal choice. And I know that people argue it affects others and it may, but we all do things that affect each other every day. But I just think this is a very personal decision. And I think everybody needs to research on their own. As you guys said, they need to come down to the best choice for their family, and they also need to research the risk on the disease and and and determine is the risk of the disease going out weigh the risk of the vaccine. Like, I think that's such an important point because people you can't just go into this blindly and be like, yeah, vaccines are unsafe. You have to understand what you're up against and you have to make your own decision. And I think that's why it's not about being we we hate the term anti BAXX, and thank you for not using it, because it's really just about understanding that it's not one size fits all. We want more transparency, we want more safety, and you hear Robert advocate for at as well. We want we want the exemptions, don't take away the exemptions, and a lot of states are at risk for that. So I just want to make that disclaimer that it's really just about information, about doing your research and making the decision that's best for your family, and we're not judging anybody for what they do. We just want people to understand that there is a lot of abalidity to this side. Chelsea, what about you? Where was the spark for you? So the spark for me was really, um, you know, when I first started, when I was pregnant with my first child, I just I had no idea about vaccines and I just thought it was something you do, it's safe whatever. Um, what really first piqued my interest was my our pediatrician, who is very pro vaccine, told us not to do the happy shot at birth. And that was really surprising because then I started researching, like, well, okay, well what about everything else? And he basically had said, yeah, I do everything else, you know this and that, but just don't do happy at birth. It's not necessary, it's unsafe. And and so from there I went home and I started reading more books and researching it more. Um, and then I saw that on the CDC schedule that there were four shots that they wanted to give. I think it's what a two months old or eight weeks old, and I was like, oh my gosh, four shots. That that's crazy. Um. I don't even like to get shots, much less to give my infant four shots all at once. That it seemed strange to me and somewhat cruel that we'd have to have their infant bodies, whose their immune systems aren't completely developed, to fight off four viruses or diseases all at once, when in a natural environment that would really never happen. So that really started to pique my interest. And then really just as a mom, initially I'm like, this is just kind of cool. I don't want to give my baby four shots all at once. So initially it was really just I just wanted to do one at a time and then go from there, so doing one at a time. My daughter had an initial adverse reaction to detail the first shot that she had, and that was around eight months old, and then I waited almost two years or like a year and a half to give her her second shot of DETAP and she was around two years old at that time, and she had a really bad reaction to it at that time. And since that first point of the first reaction around her being just under a year, I started doing even more research and more research. But again I was still on the train of but I'm supposed to do this, but my doctor says I should, and you know, he even said, like, let's hold off on the detail for a while and just do these other ones. So then at that point I was kind of picking and choosing which one is based on the research I did, like, you know, does the disease outweigh the vaccine? And from there, um, I think I was just really shocked on all of it, and that just kind of piqued my interest in the night. For the last three years, I've really been spending the majority of my time researching things on vaccine safety and really following UM Robert Kennedy Jr. In his pH d and everything that they've been doing to advocate for this, And I've really just had a passion for it because I do see some of the other children suffering from adverse reactions that people I don't think initially correlate with vaccines UM. You know. So that's kind of where I've started coming from. Well, speaking of Robert H. F. Kennedy Jr. We have him in the waiting room, so should we bring him on? Let's bring him in? Hey everybody, Hey, hey, Mr Kennedy, how are you doing, sir? I'm great good. I'm gonna go ahead and intro you, intro you, and then we're gonna get going. You look beautiful. Really, it's all make up, all right. So we have a legend in in in our on our show today and someone who doesn't need much of an introduction, but we have Mr Robert Kennedy Jr. On the show. Welcome him to wind. Mr Kennedy, thank you so much for coming on our show. We really appreciate it. We're we're honored, honored and humbled that you're here with us, especially to talk about something that's uh, I think on a lot of people's minds these days, especially with young ones for sure. And I didn't think you were going to DM me back. My two girlfriends and I went to high school with UM have followed you from the beginning, and UM you know they love everything that you do with the Children's Health Defense Organization and you know they were the ones that said try and get him on your podcast. And so that's when I was like, I texted Chelsea, the beautiful one in pink, and I said, should I ask him a I d MM? Like, what do I do? Should I ask him out? You can please? You a perfect time because I'm so technologically an app that I never looked at my d ms before. It just happened. That guy who was staying with man said, you know there's a lot of people I mean, I was like, what does that mean perfect timing? Well, I'm gonna go ahead and jump in here with you, Mr Kennedy, because I know your time is valuable. And you know, we had a doctor oz on our show a couple of weeks ago and we got onto the topic. Janna and I have two young little ones. We have a five and two year old, and we got on the topic of vaccines and he was very pro vaccine and his right in his opinion and his expertise is great. And but we we like to give our listeners, you know, both sides of the coin, because we just want people to have all the information that they can and who have who better to talk about the other side of it than you? And I know Janna and I have gone back and forth a lot recently about this, and you know, we're of those minds as we want to trust our doctors, the people who were ed ucated and given degrees professionally for for information that they're giving us. And at what point, like, are we supposed to start questioning our doctors And we want to believe these people, but you know, it's scary to think that we have to start questioning it. I mean, let me go back a little. Okay, Doctors are not scientists. They're not taught you know, they're not taught science. They're brilliant people and they go to medical school and the medical schools are largely funded by pharmaceutical companies, and they're taught how to recognize as the is and they're um and they memorize huge amounts of information. But those aren't science schools. People who are scientists have an entirely different set of skills, which is how to read a study critically. A lot of it is statistical and and um, my actual my career has been in legation and and our metal itches. I brought hundreds and hundreds of cases. I brought the case that was on now the subject of the film of the Mark Buffalo filta dark Quarters, which whether it was the DuPont case, I brought the you know, I was on the trial team in the Santo case. But hundreds and hundreds of cases, and in every one of those cases cecific. And so you have experts on one side that says, you know, roundup is who's a who swear to you very convincingly the roundup is safe and at it quite warm cause Monta Hodgkins and fauna. And then we have our experts that come on and say, wait a second. The studies that you were relying on, our studies that were done by industry, and here are the flaws that they have in them, and they are a deliberate deception. They're deliberate fraud. Oh, of a battleground of the experts, and those skills to read those studies critically are seldom taught medical school. I've talked to many many doctors and said to them, why do you think that, including doctor Oz, it's my friend, and I've said to him, why do you think that the vaccine is safe? And can you name me a study this particular vaccine. Why do you think that that vaccine is of earning more problems than it's causing. Showed me the science, and I'll believe you. And you know, all the years that I've been doing is I've never had a doctor come back and say, oh, well you can look at the you know, the first rat and study and or anything like that. And what they pediatricians particularly have told me is in medical school, we are given at most half a day on vaccines, and we're taught here, the vaccine is that you give. Here are the disease they prevent. If you don't give ease, we're gonna have an influx of diseases. And they're not taught to read the manufacturers inserts. They're never asked to look at the ingredients of the vaccine and and explain how mercury injected into a child is going to leave that child's body unharmed. Listen, if somebody says to me, here's a study body that shows you're wrong, that shows that vaccinated kids are healthier than unvaccinated, I'll make this pledge to you today. I will put that study on my website. I will close down my organization, and I'll go back to doing what a keeper full time. I'll never find that study. Damn. I mean, I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for one second and I'm gonna ask. So you're dealing with the masses here, and things can become subjective to an extent. Think about psychological issues maybe kids may deal with. Maybe a kid was neglected or abandoned as a child. You take two kids in the same scenario. One could turn out one way. One could turn out a completely different way, regardless of how even if they're raised the exact same way with some kind of abandonment and neglect, addiction in their family or whatever, and they can still turn out completely different. Right, So something like this, you take the vaccines, and you have two kids, and you and you, you know, inject them with these vaccines and the end of the end of their life or later in their life, they could have completely different results. Right where there's I'm sure there's kids out there. I don't This isn't factual, just in my opinion of playing the numbers game. I'm sure there's kids out there that haven't had any side effects or issues due to vaccines, and then there's kids that apparently clearly have. So Mr Kennedy, are you trying to convince like America to just stay away from vaccines altogether when you have these people that have had kids or that have had no issues like I guess, how do you even steer people like that away? Or are they just anomalies and you just you can't help everybody. Oh, here's two answers questions. The first hand, there is I am not any vaccine. I am all I've said, and I've said that from the beginning. I had all my kids vaccinated. All I got vacccines every single year, vaccines for twenty years. Would I do that if I want to go back, No, I would not, because now I know a lot about vaccines. But I am no, I'm not ideologically against vacccines. What I've said is if they test the vaccine like every other medication is supposed to be tested. And I'll call up shop. And what that means is you take a vaccinated group and a politic EPO group, give them both the vaccine. That's what happens, and see who has better health outcomes, if the vaccinated children have better health outcomes, and I close up shop and go away. But we have on our website we've been able to go through, you know that all of the archives of all the medical literature. There's one place where an I age. It's a library for all the peer reviewed studies that have ever been done, and it's called pub med, and we go on pub med and you know there haven't the CDC try just to stop these studies from being done vaccinated for its unvaccinated studies, but nevertheless, scientists have managed throughout time to do them. And we have about the sixth them now on my Instagram. I published them periodically in groups in a way that's very easy to read that anybody with the second grade education can read them, and um, and we know what the studies say. In every case, we've been able to find the kids who are vaccinated have higher degrees of allergies, they have more allergic right nitis, they have I'm more visits to the hospital, they have much larger higher special education. They have more diabetes, they are more arthritis there, they have shorter lifespans. And so what I'm saying is, let's test these and listen, they're completely the company has no incentive to make these vaccines safe. Think of the companies that you're dealing with here. It's four companies, Merk, synophi Isser, and uh Glaxo Smith Clients. Yeah, those four companies, and these are the companies that brought us the opioidmic What if you told them you can sell all the oidiodes that you ever want and nobody can ever be allowed to sue you. That's the position they're in. These four companies in the last ten years have paid thirty five billion dollars in criminal penalties and damages for falsifying signs, for line to regulators, for defrauding doctors, providing blackmailing, committing all kinds of criminal acts. What makes it takes a kind of cognitive dissonance to believe that those companies at what that that aren't doing that stuff, even when they can get caught and get sued. Did you read the political article that came out? Because I was curious and what you thought about that because they were saying that what article it? It said? It said, UM, Robert F. K Jr. Is our brother and uncle. He's tragically wrong about vaccines. And basically in the article it had said UM immunizations prevent some two million to three million deaths a year and have the potential to save another one point five million lives. And then it was talking about how the measles are coming back because the kids that aren't vaccinated are now you know, uh with a measle operate. There's like a hundred thousand plus deaths. So where I guess that's where I get confused with UM seeing some things and hearing other facts. It's like, because the other kids, you know, there's now now a measles outbreak, I'm like, what is that because the kids weren't being vaccinated? Or how did that even come? Okay, because you ask a lot of questions there. First of all, is it UM isn't more than that three members of my family got a hundred and five you know, UM and brother, eleven brothers and sisters. Is it important that three of them uh attacked me and uh Politico And when I would say to you, I you know, personally, I know a lot more about vaccines. I've spent fifteen years litigating them. And my family has a very strong UM relationships with the public health community. You know, I grew up knowing Dr Fauci and Francis Collins the biggest UM institutional and I age as the Kennedy Greegor Institute, the Unit Shrib Institute is over there. To my family has been intertwined with them, and my activism has been an embarrassment to my family to member certain members of my family who are particularly immersed in that you know area. So and my family argues about everything we were. You know, we were raised to will argue with each other. I love each other, so they just doesn't up on me at all. What bothered me a little bit about it is that I I did. I published, I wrote and submitted to Political a point by point refutation to every singal on point in that article, and Political refused to publish. And I think the censorshipation is something that should bother every American. People who want to read my reputation UM can go on Children's Health Defense website and read it. It's Children's Health Defense dot org. UM if you want to get more information. UM. The website has a lot of resources UM, seeking justice, exposing causes, protecting the future UM, and you know, talks all about it where you can research and also donate to the cause as well. Well. If I already wasn't stressed as a parent, I think we have a lot more information to be suggested to. No. I love it, and I'm gonna in the whole that whole field. You know, this is a relationship show. We talk a lot about marriage and kids and all that. Hence why we wanted to talk about vaccinations. UM. But you're in your third marriage to Cheryl Hines. So I'm a big fan of big fan of curb your enthusiasm and all of that. And so from a relationship standpoint, what has made this marriage work for you personally over ones in the past. Uh. Well, you know, my my, uh my last wife tragically died, um, and Cheryl came into my life around that time. I had six kids, um, which she which Cheryl inherited and listening, I cannot take any credit for it. I can my I'm literally married to an angel and she's ah, that is so sweet her. She's wise, she's thoughtful. Um, she is always Uh, there's never I've never in my life in our relationship felt like there was a quick broke while like you did this for me and I'll do this for you. It's all everything um is uh comes from a place of love, you know. And I was just wanting to make the other person feel comfortable and happy. And I feel like if God gave me what I deserved, that I would have been struck by lightning. But he isn't. He's Angela. You know. The other thing, she's super smart. Cheryl came and you know what she she's a comedian. So being married wking what it is a better thing than being married a comedian. She's making me, she makes me laugh all the time, and I'm constantly astonished by her. First of all, she is like a mom to my kids in every way, you know, and they confide in her and they love her. And it was a difficult transition, you know, to go from um what they had to go through to you know, to sort of accepting a person in their life who they trus to know who they love and um, and she acts in every way, like really caring, good mother. But she has wisdom, you know, wisdom. The word wisdom means the knowledge of God's will. It's a it's an intuitive, um understanding of what's right and what's wrong. And she has that gift in almost every situation. She kind of knows immediately, um, what the right thing to do, what the right thing to say is. I'm always astonished when I see her on TV and um, somebody asked her sort of an awkward question and about how definitely she handles it so that nobody gets embarrassed and so that it's everybody seems smart, wies and and funny, and so I just feel like I've got a uh, you know, I feel like I've gotten this extraordinary gift. And for me at this point in my life, I'm you know, I get a lot of joy from anticipating what she what it is gonna make her happy and um and uh, and then trying to do it without being asked to do it. She she likes to have the bed made in the morning, and she likes you know, she was joking with her friend or one of her best friends is Susan Yeagley, who is married to Kevin Neil and and they were talking the other day and saying, what's the sexiest thing that a man can do? And Susie Haagley said, the dishes. That's actually a good one. I prefer. I know, I prefer that when he cooks, I like to do the dishes. But I do not know how to cook. I'm not a chef. It's not it's not my thing. Well, Mr Kennedy, thank you so so so much for your time today. We've had an unbelievable time talking with you about everything. We talked to you all day and listen to you talk all day, but I know myself, my wife, Gina, Chelsea, and Andrea, we all appreciate your time and we've learned a lot, and I know our listeners will too. And thanks for being my damn friend. I'm gonna keep damning you so and make sure to visit Children's Health Defense dot org to learn more about the things that we talked about today and follow me on Instagram. Although they have shut down my Instagram, so I don't know if you can't even access it anymore, but they have me throttled, so I was on it I think earlier today, so I know what I heard they were opening a little. Usually what they did is they shut it down so you couldn't find it unless you wrote Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Oh, yeah, enproning. That's been happening to a lot of people. Well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate. I'll talk to you all soon. Thank you so much. Okay, all right, hi Mr Kennedy, if I was gonna say that, Okay. So, as we said at the beginning of this episode, we just wanted to gather some professionals who know way more than us about the topics the sense of topics that we talk about UM on today's episode and just in general. And so we had were joined by Dr Abe Malkin, who is an MP D n b A in southern California. He's been to every kind of medical school you can think of. UM. He schools that we can't even pronounce. They're so good. Yeah, stud Yeah, exactly. So he's way more certified than any of us. And we went to welcome dr Ape to the show. Dr thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, nice to do with you guys. Thanks for having me. Oh absolutely, you know, we we wanted you to come on today because we talked to Robert Kennedy Jr. U earlier in the show, and you know, it's amazing how there's these certain topics right in in life and in society that we talk about. And what we were talking about with him was a lot about vaccinations and it gets so personal. It's just like politics in general. Right, It's just one of those topics that it's hard for people to see the other side of the coin because it just feels so personal, and they make it so personal because it is, especially when it comes to your children, like vaccinations and so on. And so just to pick up where we left off with with RFK Jr. Is the whole vaccination thing from your expertise, you know, your doctor and family medicine, and I'm sure you talked to parents and children. For you, when you're talking to these parents and reassuring them and maybe what they want to do, how do you approach such a topic as this. Yeah, I you have to be considered of the fact that parents are, you know, concerned about what they hear out in the media, and uh, you know, these are their precious children. So although we as doctors can sometimes tend to be a little bit more medical and scientific given our training, you know, there's definitely a human element to this and uh that needs to be addressed. So, you know, whenever I talk to parents about vaccination, but I do recognize that there are different opinions, although you know, certainly in the minority, but that has to be reconciled. When you're talking about a young child, the baby, you know, getting vaccines, vaccination shots. It can be jarring to a parent, especially when they hear things that make it seem like that could be harmful to them. Um. But what I try to do is really stick to some of the facts that that you know, uh indicate the vast majority of people support vaccines, but also address the human element, and you know, talk to a parent like as just another caring individual where my goal is not just simply to follow a protocol, but actually to do what's best and the best interests of their child, um, which ultimately give them the most healthy and fruitful life. So I think coming out from that angle, the more impassioned empathetic stance definitely helps a lot in having those discussions with parents. Is it I make up in my own mind that it could be frustrating because if I was an expert at one thing, and if I heard just people coming into my office on a regular base basis saying I read that, I heard you know this, someone said this. And when you're hit with that, is it? I mean, you're a human too. Is it frustrating at times? And when you're trying to to do the best for your patients? How do you handle that? Like as a clinical professional who went to school to know more information than the general public, right, and when you have people saying, well, I read on this, I've heard this, and how do you kind of handle that aspect? Yeah, I mean I think medicine as a whole is constantly evolving. So it's not as though we live in this dogmatic world where you know one thing is true and it's true forever and and you know we we're not. We're very inflexible. Uh. That being said, in medicine, we do change at a very glacial pace, in the sense that in order for something to be adopted as practice current practice of care, it needs to have randomized controlled trials, large scale studies vetted by professionals in order to change our practice behavior. So, you know, we do here all the time. I saw this on WebMD or heard this on Dr Google or my friend told me this. But that doesn't change our practice behavior. What does change our practice behavior is randomized controlled trials that are vetted and published by the medical the medical community. So, um, that's what we go by as physicians, you know, because it does allow us to fall back on knowing that those have been really vetted studies. You know, hearsay anecdotal evidence, you know, maybe impetus for change, but it's certainly not something that's gonna lead to a full scale change in our behavior. What I don't know if you've heard, if you heard some of the Robert Kennedy junior interview, But when he says that there like he wants the scientific proof behind it, and that like he would love that evidence, and then he would basically stop talking about that. Why, I mean, is there a scientific evidence or is there not? So there there's many, many studies that show the efficacy of vaccines. Each vaccine itself has a myriad of literature supporting it, whether it be flu vaccines, MMR, measles, yellow fever, smallpox, these have all been studied in numerous studies that have shown the efficacy and the drastic, drastic reduction in cases um, you know, using the vaccine. And conversely, there have been studies that have shown that UH risks and the negative effects that anti vaccination individuals claim are just not substantiated. You know. The biggest one, of course, was study that Dr Wakefield, who kind of pioneering in the anti vaccination movement UH provided to show that you know, MMR vaccine caused autism, and very shortly thereafter that was debunked by a number of people in the medical community, where in fact, when it's far to say that his results were falsified. So I don't really understand that position that there isn't scientific evidence. There's a vast abundance of evidence, um And I think there may be small scales studies done by questionable individuals that may show differing opinions, but that's certainly not the majority. And you know, there's plenty of evidence on the contrary. You know. I was when we were talking to him, I kind of played Devil's advocate and I asked him, I was like, you know, is what he was ultimately saying is he doesn't believe it's a one size fits all kind of mentality, which I get but at the same time, you're trying to provide something to the masses, right, and each vaccination can't be a customizable thing per individual. That's just I don't know how that's medically or financially possible, right to test it or do all those things. So I asked him. I was like, isn't there just gonna be no matter what you do, there's gonna be some fallout, There's gonna be some side effects, Like it's a numbers game, So not everyone is going to react the same way to every medication, right. That that's why there's multiple different metal medications to treat the same symptom or the same issue, because people react differently. And I make up that for vaccinations. It's kind of the same. People are going to react differently. It's unfortunate, it sucks, but that's also life, right Like car accidents. Sometimes it's just an accident. It's no one's fault. And you know, I don't mean to compare. I would just say that I'm one thing though, if you know, because I've saw something on Instagram and a baby died young because of vaccination, if that was your baby in that died, you might take a different stance on it just be like, oh, sure, you know, that's where I would be like, no, that's why it's hard, No for sure. And how do they know that they baby died from vaccination helplication? They like right after they got it, baby went like bad red plotches everywhere. And then it is that something that does happen every once in a while. Yeah, And you bring up a really great point, Michael Um that this is not one size fits all. As with anything, there's going to be outliers. So for example, you know, babies that are you know, compromised will not do well with a vaccine because you're introducing a potentially harmful element into their body. But that's again that's a you know, infantestily small number of children, um children who have severe allergic reaction. To your point that certainly those will be at risk. So and again what you have to you know, and again if it is your child, to your baby, you certainly wouldn't look at this objectively. You have a much more subjective emotional response to it. But as a as a society, as a health public health issue, we do have to think about what is best for the greatest good. And I think at this point. You know, mass vaccinations are certainly out benefit that way as the risk. And then you know, in the future we are going to work towards personalized medicine. We are seeing genetic testing done in and more an adult setting, to to personalize antibiotics, to personalize psychiatric medications. You know, I could see ten twenty years down the line where when a baby is born, we have their full genetic map and we know how to tailor vaccines and medications to fit that fit them personally. So I think things will continue to improve, but in the meantime, this is definitely the best we have out there. What about when they say that the vaccinations aren't being tested, is that is that false or it's it's certainly false. You know. The reason that it takes so long for a COVID vaccine is because there's four stages of testing the vaccines have to go through. First, it has to you know, first they have to test it to make sure it makes sense scientifically. Then they have to make sure that it's effective, Then they have to make sure it's safe. Then they have to test it in humans. So every vaccine has to go through that in order to obtain it. The approval and how come there's so much more, Like I mean, as a baby, I didn't get these many vaccines um and then there's so much more in the vaccines now too. You know some of the things that I read, I'm like, that's in there? Um? You know? Is that? Is that just the progress of how you know, the vaccinations are being made um to to help these other diseases or like what what? Why? I just I don't know why am I going to lack something because I didn't get the same vaccinations that my kids did? Or so we definitely do modify vaccines to target, you know, different public health issues. So measles vaccines obviously became much more popular and we've basically eradicated measles as a result. In fact, some of the ingredients have actually been taken out. So mercury is obviously a hot topic when it comes to vaccines. Let's just address the mercury. There's actually very few vaccines now that do contain mercury. And the reason they use mercury, and it's called thermosol, is because it's actually an antimicrobial agent that helps prevent fungus and bacteria from growing inside of a vaccine. Bottle. And the reason we that's important is because in order to produce enough vaccines to vaccinate the entire population of children, we need to use multidose files. It's very expensive to use single dose files for every single child. So if you're using a multidose file and it's uh, you know, going to be on the shelf for a week or two weeks while you're using it from different children in order to prevent it from developing infection within the bile, mercury is helpful, so uh it. But in the last ten years, the FDA has really come down and removed mercury from almost all vaccines that we use. The only two that it really is still used for is the D TAP and T TAP vaccines because it's just there's four different vaccines than one, and it's a multitose file, and it's often you know, it needs to be sterile. So to your point, that was along with the answer to say, we actually have done a good job of removing certain things for vaccines which may potentially be harmful. Is it, you know, like we're talking about obviously someone who is experienced the negative outcome of a vaccine with their children, as obviously more subjected to, you know, the emotional response around this topic. Have you known any doctors or clinical professionals that have had children that have suffered from that unfortunate, you know, circumstance and either change their position or still been like, well, they understand the possibility of some negative outcome. Yeah, I mean, I personally have not known anyone that had that outcome. But I think to your point earlier, I think we all do come at this from an empathetic standpoint, and we can understand the reason why someone who, especially if they had a bad outcome or their friend at a bad outcome, would want to take that stance. But we treat on a public health basis. We we at this point, we it's it's not feasible to treat every single individual child differently because we just wouldn't be able to to vaccinate effectively at that point. And you know, herd immunity is a real thing, So if a certain number of children in the community are being vaccinated, it prevents all children. So it's really important. You know, even if a couple of children decide to to remove themselves or their parents decide to remove them, because the vast majority of the children are being vaccinated, those children actually do afford the benefit of vaccination. So I understand if people individual and an individual basis need to remove themselves for certain reasons, but we really do need to maintain her immunity because that's incredibly important, even for those children that don't get back. I was just gonna ask him, this is my my last question around the vaccination that I want to change gears, But do you think it's uh appropriate that whether it's government or states or whatever can determine, you know, can make vaccinations mandatory. Do you think that in your personal belief do you think that's appropriate or like you said, if it's a herd immunity, still I make up that the higher population is still gonna, you know, use vaccinations and everything that if you do have those outliers that for religious beliefs, personal belifs, whatever it may be, and they choose not to, it's like, okay, you choose not to, but at least we still have the majority that are being vaccinated. So that's a that's a mine field of a question. Um, you know, I will say that from a personal perspective, given that I think the benefits of vaccine are extremely valuable. I think that for certain people involved in a group setting, whether it be schools or other public functions, you know, vaccines can be required. But I don't think that, you know, on a just freedom level, people should have to vaccinate their children if they choose to homeschool or if they choose to remove them in other ways from a public setting. But obviously that's very difficult. So in reality, it would probably be a scenario which someone would have together because vaccinated understandable. Okay, I want to shift gears real quick, because it says you're also a Board certified Addiction Medicine a member of the American Society of Addiction Medicine UM, being one who suffers from an addiction, not you know, a substance addiction. But I'm just curious around that. I haven't heard much about addiction medicine UM. Can you just kind of film myself in our listeners in and kind of what that is? Sure? So, uh, you know, over the last ten twenty years, we've really started to see addiction more of a disease as as opposed to a behavior choice. You know, addiction used to be, you know, something that we or to criticize. People are ridiculed them because of their choices, but now we're realizing it's it's a it's a it's a disease, just like diabetes, you know, cancer, other things where once a person develops that addiction, whether it be through genetic reasons or you know, behavioral issues as a child, they really don't have a lot of choice in the matter and need medical help. So I work with a lot of patients with multi substance issues, whether it be alcohol, opiates, Benzo's, gambling, other types of addictions, and really try to help them either in a pharmaceutical way or in a behavioral therapy way to battle those addictions. And it's very gratifying for me because I'm seeing people that in other areas of their life are excelling, but have unfortunately addiction problems that are really limiting them reaching the full potential. So um I do my practice specifically, I work with patients sort of on a very individual in home concierge model, whereas there's many many other options for patients who need to go into a residential treatment setting or an OPICII program or a manages a little bit more individualized. Have you found with the more substance abuse driven addictions with you know, narcotics or alcohol, that there is some kind of pharmaceutical remedy for that. Yeah, So I would say about fifty percent of addiction is genetic and it's very hard to that. The other fifty percent is due to dopamine pleasure reward pathways in the brain. So when you see something it triggers a certain emotion or feeling that it causes a certain behavior. So I would say that aspect of addiction can be treated pharmaceutically, the genetic component to it is very hard to So you know, there are there are medications out there that block the receptor that that substance triggers. So for example, take a drink of alcohol, it's stimulate or us. An opiate stimulates opioid receptor in your brain that releases dopamine that makes you feel good. If you can block that receptor so that when you take the drink of alcohol, you use that Okay, you don't feel that euphoria. That now breaks the that positive feedback mechanism that wants you to keep doing more and more. So this is not a full proof, but this is definitely something helpful pharmacologically that can help a lot of people. That's really interesting and so I mean, I'm a we're open on the show. My all my stuff is out there. So I suffer from sex addiction, um and I've been in recovery for that for the past four years, you know, on and off, been doing you know, fight my good fight per se around that. And it for me, you know, with something like that that's not of substance based, you know, it's been hard even for myself early on to wrap my head around it, to to understand it, let alone my wife or the people around me to understand. It's like, okay, alcohol or substance abuse, you can kind of get that there's a chemical like it's almost it's easier to understand the physical you know chemical around that with you know, the sexy aspect or maybe gambler's addiction or whatever it may be. It's it's a little different, and it's it's been hard to um live with. It's been hard to articulate to people and help them understand and put into words the things that go on in my head and where all that comes from and the dopamine and everything. So with those kind of addictions, are you saying that there's still there could be some pharmaceutical benefit around that, some somewhat you know, for for for gambling addiction, there are some medications that have been trialed. For sex addiction, there's really no FDA approved medication. However, you know, the typical treatment course or someone with behavioral addiction such as sex addiction is twofold. Number one is psychotherapy to uncover any underlying issues, maybe traumas like child or you know, things that have caused these behaviors. And number two behavioral therapy, so where psychotherapy looks back to understand what has caused the behavior in the past. Behavioral therapy is say, in that moment, what can I do to change my behavior? And that may be a neural laguistic linguistic programming n LP, it might be other types of behavioral therapy which have been used in a lot of different walks of life. You know, a lot of um success coaches, teach CEOs and athletes the physical things that they can do to really be present in the moment. You know, things simply as like brushing your hair, touching your finger, touching a watch which reminds you of something. That's that's what behavioral therapy is. So maybe when you get those urges, you know, you you touch something that reminds you of your your children or your wife, and that makes you you're not engage in that behavior. I know my wife's over here. Like if there's a drug out there, my husband the cocktail, it just stops. Well, that's fascinating that I make up. That has to be extremely rewarding to kind of work into that field and couters to you just being someone who suffers from that, and to know that there's you know, good doctors like you who are constantly working at at helping those who suffer from addiction because it impacts so many people, not just the person who suffers, you know, there's so many people around it, um that deal with it. Yeah. Absolutely, I do have a question because I've I've used Dr Google on this one, so I'm just curious. Um, I you know, I've I've suffered from anxiety and PTSD and um, I've been on a medicine for god, I don't even know how many years now, ten or twelve, fifteen plus years, and you know a part of me is like, Okay, I know now that I'm not going to die. I'm like, I'm not I don't need to call the ambulance. I don't need to you know, you know, alert the entire neighborhood. Like I'm okay, I know how to work through a panic attack right now. Now, I like being on I'm on a very low dosage of lexapro, and I get but is it is it harmful to continue to be on a drug for that long and to continue to stay on it, because I don't I'm so fearful of I mean, I don't even like taking tile at all. I'm like, oh my god, is this going to cause cancer or is this gonna you know, or is this just the thing that's going to just keep me like calm for moments. So lexipro in particular, is it is a very low risk drug. So that's the kind of drug you can take decades and decades and you're completely find it. Also, you're on a moderate to low dose, so not something that I would consider that you have to taper. There are other medications, you know, like bens and as a pen zan x valuum added in. Those medications can be very harmful to someone, and I would certainly recommend that people get off of them as early in their life as they can because the lawmen are only be more difficult. Um the way that the mechanism of action from lexapros specifically is not harmful to the body, whereas in contrast, other medications like the bends with as pains that I mentioned can be harmful. So, um, every medication is different in your case, that's fine for your stay on it. Thanks doc, well, thank you so much for coming out. I mean, is there anything that you just want everyone to know about just overall health? And um, doctors, I say the same thing every time I get on It's my soapbox about health. You know, we're especially in this time of COVID. We're all thinking about like is there going to be a vaccine and what's the treatment? You know? But I have you know, I have a relatively small practice because it's a concierge practice, and my patients are tend to be more health conscious and you know, health optimizers, and many of them have gotten COVID and many and all all of them have recovered fine. So I used that as a small sample size to say, if you just take care of your body, exercise, get enough sleep, avoid toxins, make sure you have enough vitamins, and your body, eat a healthy diet. You know, you're going to be in a good place relative to the rest of society. Okay, awesome, thank you so much, very thank you for your time. We really appreciate it, and you're welcome back any time because every enjoy talking to you, so thank you. Likewise, thank you. That was fascinating some of the especially the stuff that we talked about afterwards. Yeah, I think again, like we kind of started this episode with I think it it was really important to have just two different minds about this stuff because again, we're not professionals. Don't take our word for anything. And even Robert Kennedy said it, even with his as much as he's on the other side of the fence, he's like, just ask questions, you know, and and and dr Abe even when we asked him, it's like, how do you how does he receive you know, people asking questions, And he seemed very open to it. You know, he wasn't like defense about he was just like, yeah, it's okay, people come in. It's a very personal thing. So art he was saying, he's like, our job is to be empathetic to that that this is a lot of these topics involved their children, which were we protect more than anything in this world, so I really enjoyed this episode. There's a lot of information, so take it all for what it is and that's all it is. Just ask questions, process information, and make your own decision for sure. I love you guys later