Wind Down with Jane Kramer and Michael Coffin and I'm her radio podcast. So there's a lot of rumors circling the interweb, and I wanna just kind of, um, how do I say, talk about one of the rumors right now? And we actually have someone in the waiting room to talk about one of those rumors. So let's there's two, so let's bring the one rumor in. Um, she's our surprise guest coming on the show, and our surprise guest is drumroll please, m is this thing on? That's the most perfect Sarah? I know? That was I said, and our secret guest is and then we did a drum roll, and then you go, is this thing on? No? I genuinely like, oh, I didn't see myself. I didn't know what was going on. Hi, Hi, honey. You guys know that our one and only Sarah now Gretzky. Yep, our one and only Sarah Gretzky. Um. So, girlfriend, there is a rumor circulating the internet that you are pregnant, and I just you know, we got to talk about it. Is it true? You know? I'm just glad I could come on and speak for myself. Yes, that is a true That is a true rumor you've been hearing Sarah Gretzky is pregnant. Um, this is your rainbow baby, I know, and it's a it's a girl. Man, it's so weird, Like I feel so weird, even like I don't know how many weeks are you right now? So I am also like that's what I'm still getting used to, the weak's thing. Like no one tells you how confusing that is. I am almost I'm like sixteen and a half. Oh my gosh, okay, So I just I have I have a few things. When so you found out first that you well for so how do you find out you're pregnant? So, oh my god, what a journey. So I you know, I did clone in in December and that did not work. I mean it did what it was supposed to do for my body, but it didn't. We did not conceive. If you don't know what that is, just it's a quick google. I don't. I can't get into this thing, both honestly, honestly both. So um, you know, I mean, you know, when you're trying quote unquote whatever trying is, you've got tests laying around all all times of every day, every hour, and I genuinely I did not think I ovulated that month, And so I was we were in Colorado, and I was just feeling off, which is like normal between COVID and the altitude. I was just feeling weird, and I was like, cents certain it was like altitude sickness. And I called my sister because I was like, like I was. I was already crying because I was like, I hate that when i feel off, I automatically think, oh, maybe I'm pregnant, you know. I hate that. I want to feel that, but it could be COVID, it could be anything, but my mind goes there. And she was like, well, then just take a test and put that out of your mind and then go drink some water and hydrate. So I was in the bathroom on face time with her. I took a test, and I swear to God, I like fainted screaming. I thought I was like having like a massive diarrhea, Like he didn't not know what was going on in the bathroom because I was like screaming, crying because I saw like a faint, like there was a line there. But I was like, my mind's playing tricks on me, and I turned the camera and back. It was like, that's a fucking line, Like, like god, So it wasn't exciting or romantic. Tie came barging in. He's like, is everything okay? Are you fine? And I was like, do I need to wipe your butt? He literally was like no, no, this is tight. He knocks on the door and he like opens it and he's like, are you okay? And I was like on the floor and so and then when we found out that it was a girl, you found that out by yourself, yes, So, I mean with everything, like and I have been staying with his parents for the last couple of months, so, like everyone's just kind of been all over the board. We really did not tell anyone I was pregnant. It was actually crazy how the two of us were able to keep that. Um. I think again, after a miscarriage, it it hits differently. As much as you promise yourself you're not going to let it affect you, it does. Like you even said, every time you pee, every time you like, I mean, sorry to get graphic, but it's like every time you pee, you're checking to see if there's blood every time, and every time your stomach you just you want to believe it and you don't want to let the devil win, but like in the back of your mind, you just start you're reserved. And so we didn't tell anyone, and I always knew, no shame to anyone, but I always knew I just didn't want a gender I want. I mean, I didn't want to gender reveal in the sense that me and I find out with everyone else in that sense, only because I think the last year there's been a lot of surprises the last year. I just wanted to have a moment between he and I personally where we could we could do this together. So yeah, my doctor called me and he's been amazing and he's really been through it all with me, and I could just kind of tell, you know, They're like do you want to know? And I'm like yeah, and he was like it's a girl, and I just froze. I just I just like I I didn't even I panicked, fully panicked, full sweat and he's like, are you there? And then I tried to not cry and I was like yeah, and he's like, okay, I have a good day. So then I just went and bought a little pink rolf lrn Onesie and wrapped it up for Tie and then I told him later um. And then it made it special because then we could tell both of our parents separately, and it was like it was for them, like his mom lost it, my mom lost it. So it just made it It was I'm like dreaming and like I even like talking about it now. It feels so weird because I still am like is this like a thing? So what do you what do you say to the girl? What do you say to you? Because you were the girl about, you know, just suffering a miscarriage and not having hope that you're going to be a year later kind of in this situation. So it's like what do you say to what do you say to you know, old Sarah, your go what do you say to the girl that has just recently miscarried and has like, you know, that feeling of like just brokenness and no hope, and like what do you say to that girl? So I kept a I kept a journal after the miscarriage, not even on purpose. I just like realized I wanted I wanted to remember how it all felt in a weird way. I wanted to remember where I was because I knew I was going to get out of it, and I went back and was reading it, and I was like, to answer your question, what would I say to her? What do I say to anyone listening. It's so hard to take any advice or to to picture anything other than heartbreak, But like, just know that it gets better and take everything. Take everything as a win. I mean, if you get to go on a weekend get away with your best friend, or if you get to go now dine outside, have a date with your husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend, like take every little thing as a win because it all started to you know, and everyone says when does it get better? When does it get better? And you even said, like there is no time frame. Everyone's different. For me, it started to get better in like the fall when I just started realizing like, okay, that was not the plan, Like there is a plan and that was just not it. Like just I was able to finally live. Because it is all consuming, as much as you don't want it to be, and as much as everyone tells you. You know, people can tell you everything all day long till they're blue in the face, but you have to just know in your gut that whatever it is it will better. And that's what I wish I could just tell myself. I mean, when Kloman didn't work in December, I spent and I thought it was better too. I was like, oh my god, I'm feeling so much better. I mean, I cried all Christmas. I cried, and I just wish I could go back and be like, it's just not like, just let it go, breathe and just live because whoever you're surrounded with, like Ty doesn't want to see me like that. It kills him. You know, like as hard as it is to go about your day and just think of all the positives, just think of the positives. I really think that's it, because yeah, Sarah, I am so when you sent me the photo, I mean I I screamed. So you were in Canada like when this was all and I'm like, I am not going to call this bitch on set like she's like and then she You're like out at this zoo, You're like doing things at like these are full days you're having and I'm ties like, how have you not? I'm like this is that also was another reason why we didn't tell people. I'm like, COVID makes it so weird. I wasn't seeing anyone face to face, Like what was I gonna do send a text to every person? So finally when you were like home, I saw you were doing stories and you're like, ask me a question. I'm unpacking. I'm like, okay, she's sitting down like she's home, and I was like, she's gonna die. And you're like, oh my god, I know you called you face time to me right away, and I was like, I don't know, is this real? Yeah? Apparently, so like just screaming, I'm so proud. I'm so happy for you guys, Like I mean, you're you're glowing obviously, and I just I can't wait to meet this little girl. I can't wait for Jolly and her to have little late dates and like it's so it's so weird, and I have to constantly like even doing this, I was like hyping myself up because I'm like, I mean, I didn't post on Instagram to like last week because I was just so it's such a and then I and then you feel for everyone because you know, for every person who's excited for you, there's someone who just absolutely hates me. Yeah, because even I would scroll when I would see people. I'm like, well even your own sister, Like when your sister got pregnant, it's like you want to hate your own sister, but you you you know, the jealous of your freaking sister. You know, of course and natural that was a wild ride. But that's why it's just so hard, because I'm like, and that's why I wanted to say, like I get it, Like, trust me, this did not come easy. I am not someone who tried for two months and was so lucky and it just happened. And I don't even know how it happened. And you know this, this took us about a year, a little over a year, so like it does you know, it wears on you, but I don't know. I'm I have faith and I now know every single thing, my whole life is already planned out for me by someone else, and I'm just living it and hoping for the best. And I just hope this girl has good hair. Well it's so cool that, like you're story, it's just come full circle, like on this show and with us and all his friends and part of each other's lives, going from talking about time not proposing to now you guys, you know, having a little baby, and so we're just so happy. I'm proud of both of you and I just yeah, we like, we want to see you. So however we can see you if you're when you're when you're ready, just let us know. We want to we want to come see you. And um, but for all those listening, Sarah has an awesome podcast that she does call the net Chicks, and they just talked about different shows and it's fun. Here, give your give your best elevator. If you like wind Down, it's nothing like wind Down. We don't talk about anything personal. No, I'm kidding. Um, we just talk about yeah, TV shows, movies, things that we're watching, whether it's Bravo, whether it's Hbo, Netflix, Hulu. We just Natalie's my co host and it's the two of us. We just kind of um. Last year was dark and scary, and we wanted an outlet for people to literally forget where they were, what they were and just laugh with us and talk shows. And I mean, half the time you're texting your family what are you watching? You should watch this, you should watch this. So now we're telling you what to watch, what not to watch, and uh, yeah, we we just try and you know, bring a little sunshine on a rainy day. Well, it's true, it's awesome. So Sarah Gretzky, I love you so much, so happy for your congratulations on your baby girl, and thank you. Um I'll text you on the side for dates and see it. I know I need to hug and and thank you and thank all of the Wine Down people because honestly, like if I didn't, I mean, you were the only person I really knew at this during all of this, so you helped so much. And I just you, guys, get yourself a friend who who knows what what the what the f is going on, because it makes life a lot easier to have someone you know support you and guide you and and all the and and if they have a podcast, you know that helps too, So you talk to you somelf. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy for her. So that was I just love her. She's the best. I'm just again the fact that her entire stories coming full circle. And yeah, it's true. God has a bigger plan for him. We knew it was inevitable, but it's hard during those times when it's not coming to fruition. So for sure, I'm so happy for them. Well, we have a really awesome guest Um today and we're reading their book Um Vertical Marriage. We're almost done with it. It's Dave and Ann Wilson. And just a little backstory about Dave Um. He's actually the pastor at UM, the church that my family goes to. And while uh so, we got the book from them from my my mom and her husband and we started reading it and we just love it so much. So there's a there's a lot of you connection to a higher power in this. That's what it's called a vertical marriage, and there's a lot of They're so real and they have a sense of humor when they talk about it. You know, we were compared a lot to our book. And before we get him on, before we're about to take a break, but I'm gonna read something to kind of get you guys interested. This is something that Dave said as I read the Apostle Paul's famous statement to live is Christ and to die is Gain. I was struck with this thought, I would rather be dead than married to Anne. Let's take a break and get him on there. He is, Hey, Davey doing good? How about you guys? We're so good We are so excited to be talking to you guys. Um. Yeah, we're just thank you for We feel very honored to view on our show. So thank you so so, so so so much. We are too, We're glad to be here. We feel honored to be with you guys. Well we um, we know that you guys have a new book. UM that that just it's it's did it just come out or is it when? Does it come out? Yesterday? Okay, just came out yesterday? Okay, So I definitely want to talk about that book. But is it cool if we go back to the other book as well, Vertical Marriage, Because you know, one of our things that we do UM once a week is you know, we've been reading from your book and we're so close to being done and we've just we've learned a lot, but we've written down a bunch of stuff that we just we just want to ask you because you know, as we're going through our marriage, we see so many similarities in y'all's young marriage and I'm just like, I don't know, this is just so cool. No, it's awesome. And you know, we're just kind of prepping our listeners before we got you guys, on here, and we fell in love with your book from the beginning because there's those aha moments where we're reading it out loud to one another and we're like, that's me, like I'm so Dave or I'm so in in this, and you know that's that relation. There is just what keeps keeps readers engaged, right, And we love the humor that you add to it too, where you're able to laugh at your own selves and be like, what the heck was I thinking? So that just continued to to keep us engaged. And so I know our listeners again we're gonna talk about no perfect parents, but Vertical Marriage really just connected with us, especially since you know, our belief in Christ and the Higher Power was something that Jan and I opened up in our book about losing for a long time, and really over the past couple of years together, we've we've leaned more into that. So this was the perfect book for us because it's just it's there's so much connection to a higher power, hence the title, and uh, you know, we just want our listeners to kind of understand where all that comes from for you guys, and why you called it the vert marriage. Can't you just say, how inspiring it is that you guys read do each other at night. I was like, oh, we need to start doing that. I don't know if we were we can get up to that level, you know. So one of the things that I was reading, and I can't remember which chapter it was in, but and you said, you know, this was kind of like the where it started for you guys was when you were in the car and you said that you didn't have feelings for Dave anymore. And you know when I was when we were reading into your chapter more you guys talked about in chapter four, it was about you know, you had your weekly date nights, so when you have and I kind of started thinking, I'm like, okay, well we do our weekly date nights. And I'm like, now I'm scared that, like and when we have that anniversary that I'm like, if I'm to go and I don't have feelings for you anymore, I'm like, where did it? Where did where was the mishappen? That? Like? Having you had you made the time, but then you know ten years later you're like, but I don't have feelings for you. So it's like, where did the where did that come in? I'll let Ann answer because I still had feelings. Let the record show Dave still loved. That's a great question because we were still going out. It was more sporadic back then. But I realized we kind of stopped talking. You know, we had a couple of kids. They were little, and you're exhausted anyway when you're going out, um, and we just stopped talking about how we were doing. And then Dave was starting this church that we planted, and we were both doing it, but he was gone all the time. We just started fighting about you're not home, like you're gonna miss it, You're gonna miss these kids, you're gonna miss growing them growing up. And I was feeling I need your help. So I was getting resentful. Even though I loved that we were fulfilling this dream, I felt like he was doing it without us, and we started fighting about that and we just couldn't agree. He I would say, you're gone the time, and he would say show me in the calendar, like I'm not. I'm not gone all the time. And so what happened was we just kept fighting and it would go nowhere, and I stopped trying, and I realized, like I just shut down my heart. At first, I was super angry, and then I got really bitter, and then the bitterness turned to basically resentment, and then it went to nothing. And so it took a while to get there because after a while I was like, oh, you're going again. Who cares? I'm always used to this, and that's when it can get really scary. And we all have ups and downs in our marriages, but when you're at that place where you have nothing, that's when it's like it's like the dashboard of your cars going off, like you need to get the engine checked of your heart. And that's where we were. And so Dave, I felt like, how did you know? How did you not know how bad we were? You know, Dave's like we were point five out of ten and I was saying, no, we're a point five out of ten. And the fact that you didn't know that, I just thought, that's because you're not even engaged with how we're doing. You know, hearing this now, you know this was thirty years ago. Um, I was an idiot. I mean, as I listen to this and like, how in the world did I miss this? And I did? And I think it's not an excuse but I think I was finding so much life outside. You know. I was traveling with the Detroit Lions as their chaplain, I was leading Bible studies, were starting to church that grew pretty quickly. People were pattent patting me on the back, and I felt, you know, now, looking back, I just found my life out there rather than here. And yeah, we were fighting. There were constantly yelling we go out on a date and we didn't talk about this relationship. No, we didn't talk about a relationship. We talked about the kids. We talked about my our jobs. You know, again, every couple does this. And yet if you don't pay attention to the most important relationship in your life, which is your marriage, the rest is going to fall apart. And that's what was happening. And I didn't even see it, you know, and we wrote about it in the parenting book you know later. It's because your life gets consumed by your kids, which is wonderful. But if you're not careful and you don't put the marriage first, you're not gonna even have those kids. They're gonna be in separate homes and you're gonna be do visitations on the weekend, which is the home I grew up in, you know, without a dad, and so I'm so thankful that on our tenure anniversary and had the curios to say I've lost my feelings for you, which really was her way of saying, I'm not sure I want to stay here anymore because we are done. And again I was blindsided by that, but now looking back, it was the best moment our marriage because it in that moment changed everything. And here's the truth. We all drift unless we're intentional. Yeah, David, you know that what Jane's question and response brought something I had written down from chapter eight where you said, you know, you're realizing you or that that push and poll of being the man at home, being the same man at home that you are when you're preaching to the church, right, and kind of like that that the hypocrisy of it. Right, You're preaching this word of how to be and then you go home and you justify your actions, justify your time away and what you're trying to do. So kind of speak to us on like when you started to realize that's what you were doing and now how hard it is to preach that and execute it at home. Yeah, I think you know. I think there's a story in our book where you know, it was late at night and Anne said to me, and again, this is Sunday night, So that means, you know, Saturday night, I did chapel for the Lions down at the team hotel. Michael, you know all this whole the whole root of a weekend with an NFL team. Well, no, no, listen to this. So that means that again, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but it's it's a busy weekend. Saturday. I preach at my church first, then drive down to the team Hotel du Chapel, go back and preach three more servants at my church on Sunday, then zip down to the stadium and change into my sideline gear and run onto the sideline and do the whole game thing. And again most people think, oh, one exciting life. It's really exhausting. And then I get home and I'm exhausted and I just want to go to sleep. And it's got to be eleven thirty at night, and I'm literally laying in there bed beside Anne and I'm just closing my eyes, and she out of nowhere says, man, it's sure would be nice if the man that preaches and leads our church was the same guy that lived in this house or something. I don't know exactly. Yeah, I said that, like, I wish the guy that preached such a great leader and is praying up there, I wish she lived in our house. But I again, I'm about ready to go to sleep, so I barely understood what she said. I go, what, what what are you saying? She goes, well, it's just like me, and you stand up on our stage and you pray with this passion, and you lead with big vision and people are following, and you come home and you're just like a dud. You know, it's just like you're none of that. And I'll tell you what, man, I wish I could say. I said, I am so sorry you were so I blew up well, and I was bad timing on every part of mine, you know, for me, terrible. I literally said something like, you realize how good of a husband I am. I'm the best husband you've ever seen your life. No other wife has a man like me. You know. She just sort of got quiet and that was the end of that. But the next day, you know, it was you You're referencing in the book. I sort of sat down with God in a calmer state and said, you know, is was what Anne said to me last night? Was that sort of you because often I've said at our church, God talks through the pews. It's my acrosstick, you know, because you think of pews that at church God talks through people, events, word of God and spirit of God. That guy can talk anyway he wants, but often he'll use a person, even a two year old or a five year old, or a stranger can say something. You're like, wow, I think that was I think Anne was speaking and God was trying to get my attention, and I, you know, I realized that's exactly what was happening. It was like, man, I was given all my energy two strangers in a sense, thousands of people at our church that I will never really be held accountable for. But I will be held accountable, I think in a sense for how I led Anne. And we had three boys at the time. We still do there now men, But you know how I lead my home. And it was one of those moments, Michael, whereas a man and as a dad and as a husband, I had to look in the mirror and go, you know what, it's time to step up. It's more important what I do in this house that anything I do out there and everything out there is going to get applauded, and people are gonna say, man, it's important, and it is important what we do out in our workplace. But man, if I miss it at home and I miss it in my marriage because I'm giving all my energy somewhere else, I missed it. And you know, in ministry, in a sense, I'll sort of lose my ministry because it's it's a credibility integrity thing, and I think every job we do is like can I trust this man? Can I trust this woman? Are they the same person in public that they are in private? And so, in a sense, I'm not saying I did it perfectly, but it was a moment for me to go, Okay, it's time to step up and bring the energy here in my marriage and my home that I bring out there. Not that I'm gonna bring less energy out there, but man. And so I actually developed a little process. On my drive home from work. I had this mailbox that was near our house, and I would sort of open the it just visually. I just sort of open that mailbox and put my day job in there and pick up my husband dad job so that when I walked in my girl each door in a couple of minutes, I wouldn't be I'm exhausted. Do you understand how stressed I am at work. I'm just gonna sit on the couch here and bed out, which I think a lot of us do. And I felt like I need to step in that door and go, Okay, even though I'm exhausted, I'm bringing everything I got. I've got five or six hours tonight with my wife and with my kids, and pretty soon they're gonna be grown and out of the home. Yours are younger right now, but man, that window is gone before you know it. And older parents always told us that, you know, like they're gonna grow up and be gone in a wink, and you're like, yeah, whatever. Every day seems seems like a week exactly. All I know is now I'm old enough to go. That is true. You'll blink, and looking back, I'm glad I made this shift. Again. I didn't do it perfectly, but it's like, man, I need to be a husband right now, and I need to give Anne everything she longs for from her man, and I need to be a dad right now, and I'm tired. But it doesn't matter. You know, you step up as an athlete and you get it done when you're injured, when you're exhausted, the same thing as a husband and wife, as a mom and dad. You know, it makes me think about um this analogy from Emerson Edgar's Burke book Love and Respect, where kind of talks about and I feel the complacency or more comfortability and myself kind of like you're talking about Dave of where to me in my mind maybe men in general, it's like, well, my wife said I love you on our wedding day, so I know she's not going you know what I mean, Like, I know she's not going anywhere. Like I can come home and not be like super husband and super dad and all this stuff. And so but reading reading y'all's book and you kind of owning that and and calling you out was like call, you know, stirred up some my own introspection to be like, hey, how can I do that too? How can I not justify? Hey? You and I worked my ass off today? Like what do you what else do you want for me? You know, or or in those moments when I think because he gets frustrated with me, because I'll be like, I'm not happy like if if if we're like in a bad rut for a while, I'm not happy, Like I don't I don't know if I if this is going to continue on, if I can keep doing this, And he's like, why does it always have to be? And I'm like, no, I'm not saying I just like sometimes sometimes and sometimes you're right sometimes okay, but it's like, you know, you guys just think it's like it'll be fine, but it's like we still want we need like a little bit more effort out of like the man a little bit, because I feel like we're we're we're we're dry in that area, like we're we're trying, we're giving as much as we can, but we only can give so much without getting too Yeah, And I think as women, and I think for years, Dave Um, if I was saying I don't think we're doing well, he'd be like, I think we're fine, you know what I mean. And so it's kind of what you're saying, Jane, Like I can sense like we're not connecting. Something's off and we're Daved before would ridicule it. Now he's I think women we just have that natural sense relationally of we aren't doing well and we need to do something. Dave used to ridicule that. Now he's like, oh, God has wired her like that, and I usually know how to get us to a better point too. So that was really a big thing when he stopped saying like, you're ridiculous or what are you talking about? Yeah, we're fine, and you know, we put it in the book. But one of the things that changed about our date nights after that tenure anniversary sort of pivotal moment, is now on our date nights and we still do this. I'm asking her, so, how are we doing? I'll scale one to ten, and I know her number is still going to be lower than mine. But then I also ask, you know, how can we get the number higher? And I know she'll know. And before we weren't talking about our relationship. It wasn't because she didn't want to. She wanted to. I didn't want to go there. David be all chatty because he's a great communicator, so he's talking and then I'd go like, hey, you know, besides the lions, you know, the sports teams and all that. How do you think we're doing? And suddenly he has no words left. He you know, would be like, uh, fine, don't know. Yeah, we're good, right, We're good. And I do think, you know, sometimes I can't talk for all men, but I think for me it was like I think I knew what to do in my job. I didn't always know what to do in my marriage or in my home. It's like I've been trained, this is what I'm good at. Then I walked in the door and she's saying, can we you know, can we be intimate, not sexually, just sold the soul? Can we go deeper in our relationship? And I just like, I don't know what that means, you know, and so and sometimes to be like, I don't know what it means, so I'm not even gonna try. And I had to realize I don't know what it means, but I can learn, and I can better, and we can get to a place I never even knew existed if I'm willing to pay the price and go there. And so we've had to do that, and it's been a it's it's sort of a fun journey, even though it's really crappy. At times it hurts, but that's cool though. That's the whole thing. And that's what something we loved out your book so much, because it's all about finding that uncomfortable, you know, moments and leaning into them. And there's one thing I wrote down, um in chapter six where you talked about you're gonna share an upcoming sermon, and you said that next week's sermon is called now that You've married the wrong person, And so many people came up to you because so many people feel that way at times. And Jane and I were like, oh my goodness, like we hear so many people we've felt that way at times, like is this really the one? Because we have this made up perception that the right person everything is gonna be easy and perfect. And I just want you guys to touch on that topic for our listeners, because I'm sure there's someone listening right now that's like, yeah, I did maybe the wrong person. I guarantee I did. Oh. It's so funny because when we got married, you know, we're all, as everyone, you're so excited. You have these expectations of what it's going to be like and look like. And we have been married six months and we're driving for our first job. And if you would have asked me on our wedding day tell me Dave Wilson's weaknesses, I would have said, weaknesses. Are you kidding? I don't. I think maybe as one, I don't know. And I can remember as we're driving to this job, looking at him, thinking I don't think I like anything about him. And then I said out loud and I yelled it, marrying you with the biggest mistake of my life. And I really thought, oh, I've married the wrong person. The right person is out there. Maybe we should split and I'll go find the right person. I think a lot of people feel that. Yeah. And you know, like like I said in the book, you know, I was surprised at how many people came up about that sermon title. I just thought it's a good sermon title. I didn't really think people thought it. You know, all these people are like, I can't wait for next week. I'm like, oh my goodness, no, no, no, no, you didn't rob marry the wrong person. Um, but I do think Michael's what you said, Jane. It's like, we think if we marry the right person will be happy there'll be problems. They they won't really be that big deal. And then we get married and it is hard, and it doesn't matter who you marry. It's hard. Eventually. It could be in the first you know, six months or six years or six minutes, you know, but at some point it gets difficult and so we sort of go back and go, I'm gonna I'm not as happy as I thought i'd be. Uh, this isn't turning out the way I thought. This isn't what I signed up for. I married the wrong person. And what we try to say in vertical marriage is you're looking in the wrong place. That's what the difference is is because and we all do this, and I preached this, and I still didn't do it. I was trying to find life and happiness from the one we have a name for it. I found the one, the one meaning the person that will make me happy. You know, it's Jerry McGuire. You completely like there was never a Jerry McGuire too, because it didn't work. It's like that, hopefully, But when that person doesn't complete you or you're not as happy as you thought, do you think you married drown person? And here's again we think it's the secret because you know, and again I'm not saying I watched The Bachelor the Bachelor at every week, but I gotta tell you, when it comes out, I get hooked, you know. And I'm watching this thing and I think a lot of a snicker because we're like, it's not gonna work, dude, it's not gonna work. You're gonna find her, she's gonna find him. And eventually it's not gonna work because they're thinking, out of these twenty guys or these twenty women, this is the one. And then there's problems. And again, what we believe is there's a soul ache, a soul longing that is so deep that no person will ever be able to satisfy no thing, no amount of money, no square footage or the fastest car, the most beautiful woman are the most incredible man. All that is good, and there's nothing wrong with all that. But if you think your life is going to be totally happy by this salary or by this person, you're gonna be disappointed. And then you're gonna go, well, it's a bigger car or a bigger house, so faster, or more money. And it's like we're looking in the wrong place. Vertical means there's only one person. He's the divine Creator, God made known through Christ, who is the answer to our soul ache. You know, he's the He's the thirst quencher to our thirst. Jesus literally himself said, if any man's thirsty, let him come to me and drink, and out of the innermost being will flow living waters, living water. It's like, you can look anywhere you want, but until you understand what a relationship with Me looks like, you're only always gonna be searching. So vertical marriage means, Man, when I go vertical and find my life in my creator God, everything changes because now I think about this, I don't come back to my marriage needing something from her or she needing something from me. It's like we we just leach off one another and we're disappointed. No, I am filled up. I am I am full And again, I'm not talking about church or religion or reading a book. I'm talking about a real, living relationship with God that's so real that it's like he does do what he said he do. Out of your innermost beings will feel you'll flow with lily water overflowing. Now I come back to my marriage. And I think about this. I am not needy. I'm a giver. I'm not a taker. I'm a giver. So I'm like, okay, how can I serve in today? Because I don't need her serve me. I'm filled. I mean, it changes the whole ballgame because they're like, wow, now I'm not selfish. I'm unselfish. I'm like, you know, the Bible says husbands love your your wife has Christ loved the church. I can't do that, but I can do that, you know. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna lay down my agenda in my life to fill her up. And if she's doing the same thing, oh my gosh, that's a whole different marriage. Well it's interesting. On that tenure anniversary night, we're in the car and I would have said, the problem with our marriage is Dave. You know, he would get his stuff together. I think we would be great. And he was praying out loud, and I remember I could hear him praying, but in my heart, I felt like God was speaking to me, almost as if he was saying, Anne Wilson, you have been trying to find your life through your husband. And I felt like he was saying I never equipped him or made him to fill all of your needs. Only I can do that, and that really has made a big difference when I start getting really needy a kind of question, Am I going vertical? M hmm, well, no, love, we love long answers. That's good. What would you say to you know, couples like us who you know we have more young in our marriage, we're still learning were we have turmoil? Um? We have. I thought we were great. I thought you know what I mean, like where it's it's you know, it's it's it's a lot. There's a lot of heaviness, and we're trying to find the light and we're trying to get out of it and we're you know, we're taking one ft from the other. But because we are still young at this, like, what would you say to us to you know, help us going forward on that path of getting stronger together rather than being like I can't do this anymore. Yeah, I have a couple of things. I first thought was, this is what I wish I would have done as when we were married in our early like even the first twenty years, I would get in my head. I don't know if you guys have ever done this. I think maybe women do it more than men. If I get in this cycle in my head of negativity about Dave, about our marriage, about life, whatever, or maybe it's something he said earlier that would offend me or make me mad, and then I get in my head and I can get into this spiral of well, he never does this, or he always does this, and he's never home and he doesn't put us as a priority. And you know, as they've been doing all this brain study, they're realizing we create neurological pathways that our thought life creates. Our brain actually creates these ads that we go down continually. And I did that early in our marriage a lot. And then whatever you're thinking about eventually comes out of our mouth, and it was usually negative. And in our book we sew and you and you probably read the story in our book about you know, I felt like everywhere else I when I got cheered, Yeah, I feel like I come home and all I hear is boo, you're teaking what I do. You're critiquing how I father, You're critiquing what I'm doing, how I'm not helping around the house. And I said, and he said, you always boom me, and I'm like, I am not booing you. I am helping you. I am helping you to be a better man. You know, everybody's patting you on the back, but I see all of it and I'm I'm stretching you, and he goes it feels terrible. Remember I literally asked six guys that I was doing life with. We were in a car going to a retreat, and I said to them, let me ask you a question. I said, do you guys and I know their wives. I know that we've been friends, we're friends. I said, do you feel like your your wives love you? Every guy said yep. Just immediately, I said, let me ask you another question. Do you feel like your wives like you? Every guy said nope. And I'm like what They're like, dude, why are you asking me this question? I go, because I feel like Anne loves me. She's not leaving. But man, every day it's like, I don't do this right, I don't measure up. I should do that. I feel like she really doesn't like who I am and what I do. And that's where we were at that time, and you know, asking those guys, I'm like, wow, and I'm not saying it doesn't go the other way because we can do the same thing to our wives. But what Anne was saying there was negativity that I felt, and again and again. I think it's one of the reasons I spent a lot of the time at work. It's like there they were cheering me. Here I come home and I feel like she's booing me. And you know, working for the Detroit Lions, we got boot a lot, so you don't want to come home to stuff. B Yeah. So anyway, I asked God, like, God, is that true? Do I boo David? I felt like he was saying, yeah, you you really do boo everybody in the house. You know, as a mom, you're disciplining, your training your kids, you're teaching them. But I realized, man, what I've been thinking is coming out of my mouth. So I started listening to the words that I speak, like, oh, I am super negative to everybody, Like I feel like I'm the I'm the person that's going to save the day and fix everyone. And I also felt like, why would I cheer Dave. If I cheer him, He'll think I'm happy and satisfied and that will enable Yes, it will enable him to think to stay the same. So I said, all right, God, I'm gonna try this. And so this one night we're having dinner, and this is new for me. I had never really cheered for Dave, Like what does that even mean? You know? So before we started eating, our kids very younger, and I said, hey, you guys, before we start eating, I just want to say, Dave, thank you for working so hard, like you kick butt man, You get stuff done, you provide for our family. You work hard. You're a great dad, your great husband. So and you know our kids are like can we eat? And I'll never forget that night. I mean literally, I was looking at her like, what are you doing? She's you haven't said this ever, and I and I knew right behind her on the kitchen hutch is Emerson's book Love and Respect, Like I know what she's doing. She read it in the book. And all I can tell you is it didn't matter. It felt so stinking good. I was like, wow, I've made my chest sort of popped out, and I'm like, hey, I'm a good man. I didn't I didn't say that, but that's what it felt like. It was like, Wow, this this cheering, this respect thing, brought life to me and all I can tell you now, and it's a long time ago. She is my biggest cheerleader. She it's amazing. She cheers me every day. She says I'm a good man. At first I didn't believe her and I thought she was lying. Now I believe her. I think she really thinks that about me, and it has motivated me to become a better man than I actually was. And I think that just works for our kids, it works for our spouse both ways. Um, when you're negative, it just sort of pulls people away and they sort of become what you negatively say they are when you're positive. And again, I know, and I know it sounds crazy. It's like she was saying, I'm this man up here and I'm feeling like I'm not that good, but I wanted to become the man she said I was, and I started to change for the better. Well, I think that's just really important. Understand now. That doesn't mean you don't ever stay negative things or hard things. And I feel like, oh am, I supposed to not ever speak truth, but I still do. But I've I've already made so many deposits of speaking like and positive that then the negative. I feel like Dave really receives them in a different way. And I believe me. I've had women come up to me. This one woman came up. She goes, so you're telling me that I need to lie, I just need to be an actress and pretend that my husband's great because there's really nothing to cheer. And I think a lot of women feel like that, Like if you knew who I was married to, there's really not anything there. And I usually say, go back to why you married him. There's usually something that you saw. And honestly, I didn't realize how deep down how insecure most men are and how they need it. I've we've raised three sons, and I'm amazed of the power we have as women. This is going back to your original question. I wish I had known that, like for you guys, as a young couple, the power that we have as women to speak life like the Bible says that the power, the power of life and death is in our tongue, and man, I think I used my tongue to really I feel like I lacerated Dave in a lot of ways, and in our boys thinking they're so strong, they're so big, it's not going to hurt them. But I wish that I would have realized back then, Man, I have great power and influence. I see it in our sons and their wives. Their wives can look at them and I can see that it destroys them with a look. With that look, and men do the same thing back to women. It just the nonverbals can destroy us. So I felt like so often I was powerless and I didn't have a say, Man, I have we have as women so much? I would just add this, I've watched, like I said, I've watched and start to She's been doing it for twenty years, speaking life to me, to our sons. She doesn't to people in the grocery store. It's crazy. She is a life giver. So I mean part of that's like she wasn't that way before. So it isn't like like if you're listening and thinking, I can't change an. I had to train my brain. Here's how I started. God, show me the greatness in Dave. Only show many of the good things you put in him, show him, Show me the good things you put in our kids. And now you know because she so, I think her next, I think our next book should be her writing to wives about the power they have. UM, but women and especially reach out to us on our social media Dave and Wilson or whatever. And I've watched and train other wives just like she's doing now, and it changes her marriage. And I try to do the same thing with guys. You guys, we have a I have a best friend, Michelle, and her husband was traveling all the time when we were walking like six miles a day and just complaining basically about our husband's and UM and so I was kind of sharing with her the journey I was on, and she goes, oh my gosh, I'm gonna totally do something. So she got this journal out and she started. Every time her husband did something right, she would journal about it and put it in this book. And then on his birthday, she gave him this journal of all these things. And I'll give you an example, like, um, hey, Rob, thanks that you put the Christmas lights out on the tree this year outside. I know you hate it. We live in Michigan. It's freezing cold, and I know you would never do it, but you do it for me and I it really means a lot. Thanks for being a great husband. Something like that are you making it to a kids soccer game. So she gives him this journal on his birthday and it's has a lot of little, little, tiny entries. He sat there and cried, like cried hard reading it, and she said, I had no idea that those words would mean so much to him. I mean, we really are a little boys. We are we are We're so much more sensitive than society has painted us to be. And that's what I've told Janna, because I'll take a lot of things personal, you know, almost to a fault. But I'm like, we are sensitive. I'm extremely sensitive. And so that's why that Love and Respect book hit me a lot too. And then what you guys talk about and the power of the words that you're saying and that women have is not to be taken lightly because you guys, do you women have so much power in your words. Because I feel like there's a difference between codependency and then just uh, the respect and love you have for your partner's words, right, And so it doesn't mean you're codependent if your partner's words affect you in a negative or extremely positive way. I know, Janet, I mean, just you the story, You're just saying, and I mean, give me like goose bumps to even think about that, because I know I would just break down and cry if I if I read something like that. Yeah, I mean we long to because he's looking at him right now, I'm like what I was thinking. I'm like, so like I would the wife would too, because I feel like sometimes we don't get this, you know. It's like the words too back. I'm like, you're the words affect me more than anything, like the actions of what you've done. The words are like what still sit with me? You know. So it's like it's that same thing. I was like, okay to feel so appreciated, you know. It's like I think women want to feel appreciated and you know, and like yeah, like the scene and like I was like, wow, that'd be really freaking cool too. I think that's the word. We want to all be seen. And I think that. I think I was surprised in marriage, especially younger, how lonely you can feel in and I had to learn, I mean, and would forever tell me that my words were harsh, and I would roll my eyes and make her feel belittled and stupid, and I always thought, what are you talking? About well there, it is just the way I said that is harsh and demeaning, and I had to realize that what Janna, what you just said. She longs to feel treasured and cherished, and even a tone can do the opposite. So my tone being tender and appreciative and affirming again, speaking life instead of death is really on me in our marriage to build her up. I mean, we're talking about how man needs to respect, but a woman longs to be cherished and different for all of us, whatever you're saying, Jan yours is words that's huge for you. Now, let's transition that into y'all's y'all's new book, No Perfect Parents, because I think that's a good point in that you're talking about, just like the power that especially the mom's, like y'all's voice that you have so tell us about no Perfect parents and like what we can expect when we read that. Mhm. It's interesting. I do have a chapter in there just about identity of um it's really seeing who your kids are. Is this it interesting? You guys have a son and daughter. Are they totally different? Yes? So different? Is it crazy? And I think one of the great things for me was having three kids, and they're three boys, and yet they're so different from one another. So I think it was really great for me to see, like who has God made them to be? I think so many parents try to shape them into who they want them to be. But I don't know if you guys seen this, they're already kind of molded. You know, they're already have this bent in them. Um. The Bible says train up a child and the way he is formed, and when he's older, he won't depart from it. And that formed part it means, like, how are they already formed? We can help guide them, but like we have kids ones this techie kid, and ones this artistic guy, and another one's this leader. So kind of seeing the greatness and our kids and pulling that out and kind of honing that and developing their gifts and strengths. But also that as we were in talking about words of Life, I think our oldest, I mean our youngest was um, he was going to school on a full ride and I remember it was his senior year in the spring, and I said, man, I can't wait to see what happens for you in college. You're you're such a great leader when you talk you inspire people. I feel like you're going to have an impact wherever you go. And so I'm just kind of speaking like, this is what you're so good at. And so he's like, whatever, mom. You know. He goes to bed, this eighteen year old, and he comes back in the room and he goes mom, and he's crying, and I said, what happened? He goes, Mom, all that stuff you said, I am none of that. I am none of that. And I said, and you know that. I'm like, no, you are that and he goes, no, I got so wasted last weekend, mom, and you didn't even know what that. He goes, That's who I am, Mom, That's who I am. And I said, that may be what you did last weekend, but that's not who you are. And I think, especially with our kids in this day and age where they have so much being pushed at them, of this is who you are, I think we need to remind our kids no, like you're this great master, he's that God has made. Find out how God has made you, and then to speak to kind of help your kids know who that is. And I would add I think it's really important for us as parents to do it. Because outside our home, they're gonna be torn down. You know, not that the culture is terrible, but you know other people out there trying to build themselves up because they're insecure. So they're gonna do that by turning down our kids, cutting them down, whatever. And so we hope that our home, and we have a chapter called make Your Home BEHN is a place where our kids feel like at this place, at this house, at this home, I'm seeing, I'm believed in, I feel safe. You know, it's like out there, it's like swirling around and they walk in here and again it's not perfect. That's why we called it no perfect parents. We're not perfect. Our kids are our parents perfect. Nobody is, but a sense that they when they walk in, they feel like, here I'm life is given to me. It's almost like a recharge of their batteries to go back out. But there's a place where two people or mom or dad, a single mom, single or whatever the situation is, they see me, they believe in me. They're speaking life into me. And again they're not speaking life apart from who I am. They're speaking no, I understand who God's made you to be. Your unique gifts and I'm gonna celebrate that who you are not who I want you just to be for sure. And I'm excited to read this and I want to get through it because chapter eleven is my top five parenting mistakes, so I want to I want to make sure because I'm always like, how do I not mess up my kids? So I'm trying to like read like what do I do to not mess up my kids? So I'm I'm excited really to read this because even in your prologue, it's as a ditch expectations, embrace reality and discover that the one secret that will change your parenting. So I'm like when I read that, I was like, what's the secret? What's the secret? What's the secret? Where is that? To highlight it, like like I'm like, where is it? So, um, everyone makes sure to get No Perfect Parents, and then when you're when you're checking out, to make sure to get Vertical Marriage because that's the book that we were also talking about early here. I love it all, Dave and Anne. We appreciate your time and we feel so privileged to talk to you all, and we'd love to have you guys back on once we read No Perfect Parents. Because we'll have another page full of notes to talk about that and have you give us all the answers to how to do that. So what you guys are really really good at what you do. You really are. Thank you so much, Thank you so much, so many in a positive way. So I mean, we do it. You probably know this, but we do a radio show on a podcast that's daily. So we're sitting where you are, asking questions and you know it's not easy, and you guys are great. Thank you were trying to, you know, learn from our mistakes and continue to keep growing um. But hopefully we'll we'll still be there in a couple of years. Okay, where can our listeners find David an uh simply Dave and Wilson and with no e just Van Wilson on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, you name it, or we have a YouTube page where you know, our videos of us doing marriage conferences and retreats and talking about marriage and family and parenting are there and if they want Family Life Today is our radio show. It's on syndicated radio stations around the country and just listen to as a podcast. People listen and it's all on marriage, family, parenting. Wonderful Davin, and thank you guys so much, really appreciate it. Thank you guys, thank you, bye you guys. They were so awesome. We've been so excited and looking forward to having them on for for such a long time. And I just love what kind of what they're saying at the end about having your home be a safe haven, right because like as soon as the kids live here, they do so much adversity and issues and both teasing or whatever. It is like I never want our kids to have fear coming home. Well that and fear and you know us together too. So it's like like that's why it's so important to like have like a healthy marriage or on your kids and to keep working together. So it's just both books, you know kind of um yeah so yeah, so no no perfect parents and vertical marriage. David Ann Wilson amazing, amazing people go get their books. Well, I guess that is uh, that's the show. Someone's in the waiting room back in again. Another surprising guest that maybe the same one from earlier. Let's bring it right now, just kidding, guys. We wouldn't end the show without um one last rumor mill that has been out and we've been peppered about that we've been I think I got like five text messages even I had buddies calling and texting me trying to get validation if it was true or false. There we are, So the Queen of all things Housewives is back because you need to, I guess, ask us a question of a rumor that's been going around. So when you started off with me like there's a rumor going around the internet, and I'm like, really, because I know the big rumor going around the internet. Now I just have to come out and ask you because I have my theories and I think I know. But are you guys filming the Real Housewives of Nashville? No? But are okay, we are not filming the real house of of of Nashville. We got asked to do a Real Houses of Nashville, um, and we said no like three times because you know me, like, I don't know much about the housewives. And the only reason I kind of entertained the one with Ted was because it could be fun to be like someone's like kind of sidekick, fun buddy that just kind of comes in the friend of the friend of Yeah, but to be when they were trying to cast the Real Housewives of Nashville, and they wanted they were interested in me as one of the characters. I was just like, no, like I you know me, Like I don't like girl drama. I don't. I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want to feed into it. I don't want to like I don't even want to be the runt of it where I like to make the girls felt like I just I don't. It's not me. I don't like it and it's not my it's not I can't stress enough, like when my I can't imagine yours because my d ms were flooded, and like I want to try back and be like I mean, off the top of my head no, because like it's so not you. But reality TV is you just not that kind? Yeah, so what it is is that what it is. So look, we are not saying no to reality TV. We know a lot of people have asked us to do a reality show. It's just about what kind of show it is, because I don't want it to be the like girls, you know, I don't want it to be like attacking girls. I'm fine with them coming in seeing our marriage, you know, the ins and outs and then how we kind of work through it and but still showing the drama. So we did film something, and you know, it's just a presentation. I don't know if he'll ever get picked up. And again, I don't even know if that's something that at the end of the day, if we will really do, because it's that's a you know, I mean, I know, I know we share so much on the podcast and so much here, but it could it's sometimes it's a kiss of death. So that's something that we have to also think about and you know, be careful of because we are like trying. You know, it's scary, it's a lot. And I also feel like depending on like you know, like you said, who picks it up, what network kind of shapes the way it goes in, Like is it going to be a fun couples series where this or that, or is it going to be like drama drama drama? Yeah, because again, like we're fine sharing our fights and stuff on here, but in front of millions when we're still trying to be like because our whole thing too is yes we have issues, No we're not perfect, but this is how we're getting through it. And I don't know if they would show that side of like this is how we're getting through it. And I'm sick of already the comments about how much wear train wreck, So I'm like, I don't want to read even more. And Sarah, I was when we were filming the thing, I kept asking the producers and cameraman if we could turn it into a mockumentary so I can start looking at the camera like Jim in the office. I kept doing it, and you weren't having I was just like They're like, um no, the camera, we can't use it, like pretend we're not here. I'm like, my bad wanted to so bad, so they wanted They filmed kind of like a fight of ours, like what a fight would look like. And it was so funny because Mike was like, so they're like, hey, go in and you know, um, you know kind of you know, poke a little bit. So I'm like, okay, I got this. You're like easy, yeah, done, Okay. So I go in and I'm like, hey, so we walk in or I walk in, and it was about like kind of him leaving the golf trips. I'm like, hey, like are we are we clear with all the boundaries and stuff and you know. Mike's like, absolutely, honey, and I keep trying to like, you know, because I'm gonna I'm like I can act this to like I know how our fights are, but like I can act how our fights usually are. So I'm like I keep kind of poking him and he's like, oh, honey, absolutely, I when thousand percent agree with you. And I was like, Okay, cut because this isn't to say, this is not how you are when the cameras are around. So we're going to cut this right now because I'm not going to look like just the crazy d one and you're going to look the same because you are like, I'm like, not happening. I was like, no, cut, and we're redoing this again. Was not surprised, but it wasn't like it wasn't like a conscious thing because cameras are rolling. It was more just like you know, we've we had already kind of talked about it, so and through all the therapy we've done, I'm trying to practice what a therapy says. And the producers like, no, you gotta give us like understand too. I'm like, you guys are just setting me back therapy right now, Like all ben't working on for years. You guys are gonna set me back. But it's still like we don't do it perfectly. So it's like showing that like those because I'm like, when have you ever done that? That's the thing. He's never done that. But again, but again, when we're filming it, I was like talking to you like this, and I'd be like, look at the camera like no, like like, okay, I hope we can see this footage one day or the other because I just feel like, like you're so natural. I feel like like we would all be like, wait, what's happening? Why is he an eye going to the left, Like there's no way, my kid ignore the cameras at least like during that part. But it was fun. I mean it was fun to kind of see, you know, just kind of feel that and kind of be like, okay, like this is going This would be what we would be doing, you know, and the cameras would be here while we're having this fight. But if he but if he is like pretends to be a saint in conversations, I'm like, I'm out, I'm not because I'm like I just want to be able to look at the camera. Why can't we just acknowledge them, you know what I mean, it's not reality because they're not supposed to be. No. I feel like a lot of house husbands get like that, Like in the first season, everything's all calm and cool, but then as soon as like you get comfortable and you know, the cameras are gone, then it's like, Okay, the gloves come off, like you forget everyone's always on their best behavior. I feel like, because you're so aware. Even Catherine, you know, James manager, will say, we'll like watch our interactions, like when we're getting ready before we already filming. She's like, this is when we need the cameras. Yeah, She's like, we need him before you actually get on camera, because then I'm just like, cameras wrong. You're like, yes, Hannah, absolutely, I totally understand. I'm like, okay, whatever the love of my life needs to make her feel safe, I will do. So. Yeah. So I don't know. The bottom line is, I don't know if we will. But we did film something and it was a presentation for a certain network, so we shall see. But I will not be on a housewives show. Yeah you heard it here. I'm so glad we got to clear this up, because even I message you, I'm like, that doesn't look like housewives lighting. And I don't know if they set up craft services in your garage, but I couldn't be wrong. Well, thanks for coming back on to clear up that rumor. I mean, this is what I'm really here for. Let's be like, let's be very clear. Well, now I know now I can sleep, Like now I can go by my day because I thought, how did I forget to bring up the biggest news? It's no biggest news is your babes in the belly? All right, Sarah? Okay, guys, that's so funny. Yeah, but it is something that we'll have to discuss because I think you like kind of like what you said, Like the hardest part about if we did do a reality show is because we come on here and we want to show it's like, how how would they portray us, you know, like just a total train wreck. Well that's not fair because that's not how we like. Yeah, we have train wreck moments, but we're not always like we we have fights. Yeah, we fight and they're not perfect, but we get through them and we get stronger and we grow and we and we do better in most of our arguments now, you know, do you sit down in every argument and say yes, honey, absolutely like you did in front of the cameras that day. No, not at all. Neither do I. But we we have more than those than we did in the past, So I think that I think people just need to creatively think differently, and we need to make it a documentary. Can just let me look at the crops? Sure? Well, that's a show for us today, See you next week. Later