Wine Down with Jane Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast. Hi guys, Hi, Hello Jane, Hello Catherine. Hi. We had so much fun last week. So many people were laughing saying they were like dying in their car. It was fun. Remember what happened last week? Accidentally we were as she found something on my my text message that was fun. The best was my husband's response, Oh yeah, so listen to this. So we go out. We had a double date last night. It was Ian Katherine and her husband Nick. Wow, I look like a grease baum. Okay, were fantastic, That's very sweet. I have not brushed my hair to as you can tell. And so, uh, Nick goes, I just need to bring something up at the dinner table. He goes, I feel very left out, um that I'm the only one that's not seen Ian's penis. He had no idea until he listened. He saw like my little teaser on my thing. He was like, wait what, So he went and listened. He came home, he was like, so you saw Ian's I was like, yeah, did you say pecker? Yeah, he's a becker. I don't know if we can use the word. Yeah. That was so that's good. When that's been like a running joke, and so at dinner last night, you know, I was like, we're all laughing about it, and Nick felt very left out. It's like when it's brought up, like at the dinner table, I was like, I can't look at him, Like you can't look at Ian when we're talking about it. You know, it's very uncomfortable. I can't get that angle out of your head. He thinks it's all fun and games. Yeah, I mean he's like he thinks a confident guy. Yeah. He goes when I was like a podcasting to get today and he goes have fun, you know, like what he says that, like go go half for half fun, Like he doesn't mind that we kind of crack jokes or good because it's like he knows it's all in fun. And he you know, he said, it's it's nice to hear you laugh. Like sometimes he's downstairs when I'm recording, so he's like, it's really sweet to hear you laugh when we laugh that hard. You know. Did he text that day? Yeah? He was like I hear a lot of laughing up there. It's like, oh, well, if you only knew what was going on, ye, how do you feel, Catherine, if your husband saw Janie boobs he has well, so much from my double standard theory, doesn't bother me. I guarantee you he has. Here's the deal. I mean, I don't think he I mean, I don't know. I don't think he has. But like them, yeah, I mean I don't know. She's she's just kind of you know, No, probably not. I mean pictures. I've definitely had pictures of like from your augmentation and up and he showed up. No, I didn't. Okay, I didn't show him though, But I mean, I just feel like it would not bother me in the least. Had he even said, can I touch your boobs after the breast augmentation, I probably wouldn't have even cared. Really, I mean, I'm not saying I want him to go touch him, but it would just know that wouldn't bother me. Stuff. Really, everyone wanted to touch her boobs after wants to touch bobs. Look at Mark, his face is so fascinated by that. I don't think that. Yeah, but not like husband's. Well, No, I'm not saying he wanted to touch them. I'm just saying that wouldn't bother me. If you would not care if my if your husband went like this on my boobs his hands. Oh my god. We also talked about it. I don't care if they goes to a strip club. Yeah, I think he's like, I'm kind of a dude. I'm sorry, I'm kind of like in those ways, I'm kind of a dude. Do you well? Nick listens to this podcast. So now I need to fear from my boobs when I see him next, because he's going to come right up to me. Oh man, anyway, I guess I shouldn't know. I mean, I think that's healthy. Katherine, You're not jealous at all. You don't. You don't have that in you. I mean, yes, I have it in me, and I had it with like an X. But with him, I don't why because I just I trust him. I don't think it would ever lead to anything. I don't. I trust you and I trust him. Yeah, but like I trust you, and I would never want you to touch I mean not just bed. You see what I'm saying, Like, I like I trust people like I trust you Mark and you Eatan. But I don't think your wives would want you touching my breasts. I can confirm that every woman hates me right now, let me just take it back. That's your true, that's your true. I don't think so. I think totally fine with it. My wife has no problem with it. Okay, see there you go. I mean if I'm like there and it literally is like hey, I got new boobs and it's like oh cool, like that just wouldn't It doesn't seem sexual, It doesn't seem that's not sexually exactly, does not bother me. Okay, how about this, I don't know your husband. Does he work in an office situation? No, he like goes to the he has an office. But see where you're going with this. Okay, but so he's in an office that he's with, he's at work. One of his co workers, younger female, got new boobs and he felt them in a non sexual way and told you about it. Okay, alright, alright, just check it. So it's just me, you don't have a problem with. Again, if I was there and if someone else I trusted, I don't trust girls or whatever, but I trust you, so that wouldn't bother me. Okay. So okay, so it's just the people that you trust. So it's like the random like you said, the random girl at the office and he's like, I felt her boobs. You'd be like, what, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, that that feels better to me. He doesn't make everyone else feel more coomfortable. I like that a little bit better. What do you guys think? Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. I get that you're you're there and it's your friend. You're kind of coordinating this just like I mean, not like in a sexual way. Again, but that was the office thing was sexual either, We'll see. How would I know, I wouldn't if it wasn't. I don't know what her mindset is or his mindset at the time. Janna would have to initiate that she'd have to say, do you want to touch them? I think if he said your roobs? Can I understand their relationship? This is not that like he's made comments about my boobs, but he's like my brother, Like he's literally my brother. He's like my brother, So it's not weird. That's the only reason it would be kind of weird because it's like your brother touching your boobs. But yeah, that but like you know, it's like when he makes comments, he doesn't say them in like a sexual it's just like tell my wife to get those or something. Yeah. Anyway, anyhow, any who talk about that subject. Um, we're talking last night though about grocery store flowers. There's a transition. Do does your wife like grocery store flowers? Now, it's funny you say that because I have purchased grocery store flowers in the last four hours. Really does she like that? Birthday is today and you got the grocery store. Yeah, but I didn't have a big Ralph's label on them. So what I did was, I've been instructed to not buy any more vases because we have thirty vases. We don't need any more vases. So when I go to the grocery store instead of the florist, because I wanted to do it at six in the morning, I went to the grocery store because I wanted to do it. So as you woke up, I wanted it to be a bouquet of flowers on her bedside table and a box of chocolate cover strawberries and her drink from store Bucks that's sweet out. I went and did that at six o'clock this morning, and so I just got two big bouquets from Ralph's. No, it was Albertson's. Let's you know, to be accurate. And then I put them in one of our vases and then I had that next to the bed. So that's why I bought the grocery store flowers the vase. Okay, I like that, And that's what I said last night because at first, I'm like, I'm not big on grocery store flowers, like I think, but I love getting any kind of flowers. Like flowers are great. They can pick them from them the freaking garden outside. Like I'm cool with that. Where my issue lies is that if you get me grocery store flowers and then you you then make me have to put it in a vase and cut it and do all the work. Oh I see like still in the paper wrapped grocery store. And then when we were talking about last night, because he's so sweet, but like there was just they was laying on the counter and I'm like, how do I know there? For me? Like I don't know, like his mom was in town and like you know, and so and He's like, who who would they before? Like who else would they before? And I'm like I don't know, Like you know, I'm not gonna make up that they're for me, Like you didn't come walking in being like here, babe, I got your flowers. He's like, well, like, but I got them for you and they're on the table, and like, well, how do I know they're like myre mine? And then you know, and then we kind of started going in the topic of frosty store flowers. I've gotten lots of grocery store flowers. I don't care really where they're from. I just don't want to do the work if you do get them from the grocery store. Put him in the vase like Markedda's presentation. Yeah, yeah, and I do like them to come and be like like you know so Ian. He then takes so that he did it again with an orchid. There was an orchid sitting there in the in the It was just really cute and I was just like, babe, what are what are these and he goes, oh, yeah, I got you flowers, and I was like, okay, thinks I was like I I was like, I just didn't know there for me. And that's when he goes into the whole like, well, how do you like of course they're for you? Like this is your house and they're flowers, and I was like, oh, I don't know. And so then he takes them and he walks and he goes, honey, I'm home and I've brought you beautiful flowers from from the store. Here are these new beginning or kids for you? And I'm like, okay, well that and just tossing him on the calendar. There might be somewhere in between. Yeah, like just like I don't know. I like, am I crazy for thinking that? No? I agree? What about off ram flowers? Well that might be unique in southern California. But when you're out here and you get off the freeway, especially aroun Valentine's Day, there's guys there at the exit ramp selling you flowers. So if you've got ten bucks on your five bucks on it, you can toss that to them. They'll give you the flowers. It's the least possible effort a guy can do. Oh, we don't have that option here. I will just say any effort is amazing. So like any that's why I think, like them just cutting him from a garden, or like I think any flowers are great. Having said that, I still eventually, you know, maybe once a year have the nice like, well, I think grocery store flowers seems like an afterthought. You're at the grocery store and you get flowers. But I think in their defense, they said, no, like you should see that. I'm thinking about I'm at the grocery store and I got two flowers. See that's how I see it. I don't see I don't see this after I think, because like, why would you go to this grocer store to get grocery grocery store flowers unless you remark that because you needed in that early's literally the only thing I bought. Yeah, so it's like that makes sense to me, But like they're not. They're going to the grocery store to get hummus and carrots and steak, so it seems like an Afterfack. No, that's sweet that they're then the like, oh and now I'm gonna get something for my wife, like to make her smile. Well that's what they're saying. But I feel like we weren't agree. Yeah you thought it's just me. Yeah, well we agree to disagree. What about the argument that flowers are sailia They're just going to die in a couple of days. We shouldn't be a wasting because they're very expensive. We should be next on this flowers. I don't love flowers. I just like them every once in a while. We also had the discussion of no more greeting cards. We don't buy each other greeting cards anymore because they're they're they're really quite expensive. You know, they're like eight bucks nowadays for a greeting card and you're just going to throw it out in a couple of days or a couple of weeks. We've decided no more greeting cards. If want to give each other a handwritten not if that's fine, but no more reading cards. Yeah, I'm like, I'm the I I like handwritten notes. That's my favorite thing. I love that so much. I mean I can't even see in my mirror because Ian writes me stuff on my money or like almost every day. So it's sweet. Well you can still see it, but it's sharp. He Sharpi's it or like or not? What's that called? Like a magic dry race marker on the mirror. It's there forever I can't don't do it, but like I love that, like the little notes instide Yeah, so yeah, cards, It's like like someone else is writing those words like you should. I like the mean, I gave you that gift and the greeting card was still in there, but I forgot to do anything, like you can have this back and give it to somebody. Yeah, she put a card in my I just forgot and it didn't even write anything in it. So I was like, here you go. Sorry, I've never thought a dry race on a mirror. I'm gonna have to do that coming up. Yeah, So when she goes to bad go in there, because I mean, on my one mirror and he wrote me this long thing in the middle of my mirror, and I will I remember walking in and being like that's so sweet, like you would again, like you wouldn't. I would never have thought of that. No, I like it. I'm gonna I might. I might have to try that. I got a test it first. And here's another trick. You take like like a little bit of oil or like a little bit better, and then you write it on the mirror the night before and you can't see it. It'll be clear, and then when she takes a shower, it'll look like someone came into the room and wrote it in the steam. And she thinks a ghost in the house. Terrifying. Okay, there's a ghost in your house. Wow. Well, pivoting to a different conversation, We've got a really cool guest coming on. Um. He's an author. He has a book called Love on fudged on Amazon today. Um. But I'm super excited to hear a story and um yeah, it's about getting your relation ship crap together. Love is patient, love is blind until it's not. Um. So yeah, I'm super excited to get up. Given up, I'm super excited to get him on. So let's take a break and then let's meet Garry. I can't hear you. Hello? Is that a fake English accent? I have the worst accents ever? And I apologize. It's absolutely terrible. I'm your persistent. Um, but I love your accent. My goodness, gracious, I've been working on a long time. I've been working on it a long time, Like I just like, God, do you hate it when people do what I just did? Yeah? Desert of love? Love it? Um? Because wait, where are you from? Originally Glasgow, Scotland? Okay, So I went to a friend's wedding in port Patrick. All right, Okay, and we say it in this we flew into Glasgow, right, actually say it like like Glasgow. So it's like glass Geel Glasgow. Let's go actually gave you the whole thing up too. We should be practicing Glasgow Glasgow. I didn't get a chance to go to Glasgow. Um, but I want to go back because I tell you what that was. I mean, you know this because you're from there. But that is the most beautiful country I have ever been to. Yeah, it's pretty stunning in Glasgow is a great city for Yeah, I mean it's like stunning. But okay, but I want to I want to get into you know, you're you're very big obviously in the self help motivational You've got your book out called love on um, where like what was your journey with relationships to get to writing those books? Oh? Um? So it was kind of like the other way for me. So a lot of people get the personal development work from sorting something in a life. Actually it was the other way. I I was kind of like a student of the method of like philosophy, and so I got into it that way, like trying to understand what was going on and then using that in my life, like seeing how the philosophy actually works. Um, So the book is less based on my experience, even though there's little bits of that in there. It's more like, um, it's more like this kind of I feel like like a pathway for people, like a philosophical pathway thou, which I use in my life. I use it daily, you know. And there's nothing in that book that's not real for me. It's a real to use it. I don't that way. I live that way. Um. And I'm not going to say, oh, that's the key to having a great relationship, but it certainly makes mine a lot more workable. Let's put it out way. So what is the thing that you and your wife do that you think is kind of like the the key? I mean, I know you said there isn't a key, but um, what is like a few things that like makes y'all's relationship work. I don't expect to be any way other than the way she has and vice versa. I got, who the hell am I telling how the way she should be? She's our own person. Um So I don't. I have no expectation of my wife. She doesn't. She just as long as she's kind of a round, that's good, you know. I don't if she's in a pessy mood or something, that's fine. It's like that's her mood. Don't don't you know take that on, you know, like and I don't even do that with my children, But I've got a lot of space for my wife to be herself off m hm and and and and authentically just be ourselves like not she doesn't have to be anyway with me, and um, you know that's the same with her, like she doesn't do's no, like you need to be that's way so that I can be that's way. You need to be that way so that I can be that way. That we don't have that dynamic. I'm not saying we haven't had that dynamic, that we don't have that dynamic any longer. And that's a big part of it. It's letting go of how people are supposed to be and actually loving the person they are. What do you think is like the biggest mistake that couples make that it's supposed to be fifty fifty? Explain that that's an illusion. It's just well, if you just think of the notion, right, think it like philosophically, how that would set up? Right? Just think of like two people in fifty fifty. Mostly the way human beings work is I'm I'm, I'm basically going to just set and observe you and make sure you're doing your fifty. So that's where all my complaints are. That's when we start talking about my needs aren't being met, which is a whole other thing, by the way, because whatever needs you have as a human being or often um, stuff you haven't reconciled for yourself from your own past that maybe you need to do a little bit of work on, which is okay. Um, it's not like those things aren't real. They're real, but it just makes it really challenging when you make that your partner's problem like something they've got it out. You know, it's not that you can't work you with it through it, or support you without or anything like that. Of course they can't. But when they have to start, you know, like twisting their arms through the back of the leg and stuff to try and you know, meet you where you are, you're just going to constantly, I mean, that's going to be the place where you're gonna your your relationship is gonna live and die. Um. So to be in a relationship requires you to kind of be introspect of a lot of the time, which is sometimes challenging because we live in a dynamic of blame, you know, So we live in this or you did and then I did, And like I said, it's not like I'm walking a bit on air. I've I've had that relationship that was terrible. It was horrible, and and it didn't work. It just didn't work. It was unworkable. It was constantly all you need to no, no, no, I did, and then you need to. So we just end up in this. Your relationship becomes more of a judgment and observation than actually, what is it that makes this thing work or could make it work or make it work great for you? Good? I like that, So then what do you need to do? Then? Yeah, it's really at the beginning, it's kind of confronting, you know. It's it's in fact, it's very confronting because you started see all the things you have been doing that make it not work. It's hard to see yourself in a dynamic of a of a partnership because their eyes are on you and your eyes are on them. So it's really hard to see yourself. You're too busy defending yourself, you know, and you're a little bit of territory, you know. And and again you know, like that's why a lot of the kind of advice and stuff that's there about it is organized around that. So it's all about teps and tricks on how to make this kind of territory thing work. And it's it's never I mean, I believe anyway, Like all the good transformational work you do, all the kind of work you do on yourself as a human being, they're really good. Stuff is really hard, Like it's not easy, you know, it's just not, but it's so worthwhile. It opens up so many pathways for you know, so many realizations, so many like oh my gosh, because you know, whether we like it or not, it's human beings. When each of us is around life has a hurta and flavor. You know, we're not a blank canvas where something right and we've become a something. And it would be a little naive to think that that's something isn't playing out in your relationship and a negative one mm hm. So you basically then are just focusing on yourself. Absolutely. You have to. You have to. You have to, like if you at least to get your ground, get your kind of feet on the ground, like you know, to get yourself set about what this things about. There's no guaranteed that that will make your relationship work. Um, And I actually talk about that in this book. I actually talk about how to split up, right, what seems like the antithesis of every relationship book, but not mine. Um, But I've wanted people to really understand, like, um, you have to get your feet set about you, who you are, what you're about, how you'll undermine, how you'll doubt, how you'll sabotage what's good. Um. And and then like starting company turns with if you think of our relationship right, like that, it's kind of like a spoken and unspoken agreement between two people. Right. So there's things that we when we're in a relationship, we don't necessarily have to talk about that, but we both know that that's a no. Right. There's things like that, right, And then those things that we've talked about, but what we never do is is deal with the agreement that we're going to have to make with ourselves. Because we know what we do, right, we know like, oh, yeah, this is the thing that I'll get and that won't go well and we try and overcome it. So and the in the book I talk you through like there's a point where you have to get to the agreement with yourself, and when you're there, you're actually grounded and able to make an agreement with somebody else you're acting, you can say you know, I can actually I can do this right. It's not like oh god, I hope, hope. Um. It's really about kind of getting yourself settled down and and and it's not polyanics like those bits in the book, but I do say if your relationship fundamentally asn't working, you need to face that truth. You stop pretended income terms with it. So that's something that I was going to bring up to you because I have a lot of I got divorced last year, um, and you know, I have a lot of people reach out to me saying like when did you know enough was enough? And it's like, you know, I went through seven years of just back and forth hell and trauma and abuse and you know, affairs, and it's like it's so hard because when you hear someone saying that they're going to change and they're gonna be a different version, it's it's hard to not be like, well, shoot, I don't want the next person to get the change version that I've like waited for. And then like after so many times, it's like it's so hard to leave. But I feel like when you do leave, like that is when you truly start to notice like oh wow, like that wasn't normal or now I you know, I feel lighter here, Like you don't realize how much like wait, the relationship is like holding on you. Yeah, I mean you'll get a lot of relief for sure. Right, but if you just use your example that which is about example, because that's example what people say it themselves. You have to get through this process of convincing yourself and then there's a point and that when you realize this convincing is just bs. Right. But but that's not true just about relationships. That's just what people do in life, right. We tolerate, we put up with because we feel as if we can overcome it or we can change it, you know, we are we're capable of changing someone's choices and behaviors. That's definitely a part of that. But if you look in the background of the white people work, if you cannot get you would think, well, this is I'm in something right now that's terrible for me, right, I think this is terrible. What you're really more afraid of as the alternative, it's not this, it's like that, right, like whatever that is, which is a fundamental fear for people. It's a fear of the uncertain, right of the unknown, because you're exposed and you're vulnerable and you can a loose you know. People people hate that experience. So by and large, people will stay in situations that fundamentally do not work for the for a little more than the knowledge that at least they know it, and they'll grind that up like sometimes like in complete mesody, right and complete mesody, and you have to get like they kind of internal noise that one has about happen. Yet in it it's a lot of convincing, it's a lot of yeah, button, it's a lot of you know, well you have to really you know, so it gets complex and not internal noise, gets com lex, it gets lay up. It takes a while before you're kind of like, whoa wait, I'm going to hear no, this is not good for me. This is and you know, tell a lot of what I do with people is provide them with the kind of work and they kind of thinking that lets them if that's the kind of situation that I they'll get to that realization. Quicker certainly. Quicker, Yeah, that's that's so hard. But you're so right, Like I remember, you know, when my friends are like okay, Jannah, like enough is enough. The alternative is like, well, I don't want anyone around my kids, and you know, I don't want to have to split the holidays and I don't want to be alone, and no one's gonna who's who's who the heck is gonna want to be with me. I've got two kids, I'm divorced, Like you know, there's all those like I don't want to be alone forever, and I think those fears are and I'm like, I don't want to date, I don't want to like and mostly it was it was like you know, no, no ninety like not being with my kids, you know, and just like someone else being around them, and like that alternative sucked. But and you're right, it's like you just have to realize. And I don't know, do you do you like the quote when when people say like they're showing you who they are to believe them or now I think I think we're all. Look, here's what relationships then, whether we like it or not, this is what's so when when you get two people together, whatever's unresolved from their own past is going to come up. It's coming up, and you can't. It's like trying to keep a beach ball under the under the water. You can't, right, So whatever you haven't resolved for yourself. I talked about this in the book. Most relationships started as a solution is something for the people involved. So it's a solution is something and and and the vast majority of the time it's some personal item with themselves that they have never quite been able to resolve. That they see that an other person and it seems to fit. It's like, oh my gosh, that's why we talk. We talk about the one because or something about them that takes care of this whatever this is currently missing. Once you get any relationship, you realize that it's not filmed at all, That thing isn't taking care of In fact, it's still there, but it's now gone to play out between two people. You know, whether we like it or not, you know, we're we're very much driven by what's in the background of our minds, not what's in the foreground. That's why determination couldn't see you through that, like it couldn't because quote unquote the truth will out right, um, and it's an unresolved truth. And relationships people will do really really really free things like but just really three things, they'll do them. Um. From my perspective and the work that I, it would be really easy just for me to go, well, that makes you a terrible person. And I and no, I tend to look at like, wow, how come you ended up there? Like what the heck happened that you landed on that spot? And that's how you see life, and that's how you treat people, and that's how you interact others, and that's how you handle things like love and trust and you know, an integrity and loyalty and like whoa you know. Um, I'm fascinated by that because we're not we're not fully conscious of how we end up where we're that. We just know we're there. And that's not to you let anybody off the hulk or make excuses for people. It's not about that at all. In fact, you know you're gonna have to deal with yourself and deal with the consequences of not only who you are, but who you've been. But at the same time, you know it's it's it's definitely a fascinating thing when when you actually track back in your own life and see how the heck because with no clear with no clear direction, or don't have like I'm just going to be this kind of person and that kind of person we just kind of weave or wife through with. And a lot of my work is doing that with people who's having you fundamentally profoundly connected to your own machinery in a way that that actually resonates for you and gives you the power to make different choices and your own wife what like Now, Okay, so now that I'm in I'm in a new relationship. Now do you do you ever tell anyone like these are certain red flags to look out for in a new relationship. Now, that's that's a red flag. Asking about a red flag because it's about you, not the other one. That's what you're saying. You have to think about yourself, talk about yourself. That's and I'll tell you, I'll tell you the problem you'll have. You won't after I tell you this, but thank god we're talking, Um, this is what an awful lot of people that they used it last thing as some kind of template for the next time. So whatever the last thing was, it gets to live on here and it gets to live on like you you'd always find an evidence And this is part of the work you doing yourself, Like am I getting a clear look at this? Or is this some kind of call it in from the past that's at play here? Um? What what you'll wrestle with it? And beginning is something called trust right and again in the book like what as what? What has trust right? Like? What is it? Um? And when you trust somebody, what are you looking at? What are you're lying on? And when they ask you to trust them, what are they relying on? Which is not the same They're relying on something else. So when if I said, do you trust me, I'm I'm saying that to you, and I've got a certain gay for what that is an instant. If you're somebody who's listening to that, you're playing a different set of rules when it comes to trusts, then then I am, even though we're talking about the same thing. So that's why you're getting complete with the past is so important for all Cuman beings. When I say getting complete, just getting settled with and how you can tell you're settled with something as there's zero emotional attachment to it, like nothing right, and you can get there right, it's not rocket science. You can get there. It's a process of acceptance and letting go with judgment and you know, kind of getting somebody's humanity without necessarily it's not again, it's never abot letting him off the hoop. It's never a fact. It said, nothing to do with the dynamic of blame. It said, that's somebody who's interested in having something be complete in such a way that you can move on. Um No, your new relationships should be all but what you're creating, well, you see that's where I'm like, we're like, because you brought up a good word like sabotage, because I have tried in the beginning to sabotage it just because I'm like, yeah, I just got a relationship where I couldn't trust a manner like of course, I'm like, of course this new man is gonna cheat and lie and be you know gas you know, gas light and have mean words like of course, like it's all sweet. Now the honeymoon phase. I'm like, you're gonna end up just doing the same thing. And he's like you can't. He's like, I'm not your ex, and I'm like, well I don't know that, and then I just sabotage it, and then he's like, stop trying to push me away. Right, So so when you so, I'll use again. It's a really common thing, right, So it's more human than you would think, right, It's not necessarily you know, it's more like this is what human beings did. But if you look at like the things that you say, right, of course you're going to do this, and of course you want to do that, and of course you want to do this, and then you're gonna go like this because like everybody else, and that moment when you're saying those things, what way would you say you are you're being it bitchy? Yeah, okay, good, I'm protecting myself, Like I think I'm like that you can't go you can't go here. Well I don't think I'm like deserving of it too, So it's like because of my past. Yeah, it's like psychological. It's very psychological. You'll end up done a tunnel. You just got to look at that moment you're being cynical, okay, right now, and this relationship with this person, and that moment you're being cynical. So now you're going to get the results called cynical. I gotta google cynical because like, I know the word, but I don't actually know what it means. Right, It's kind of like it's kind of like this massive and like you know what somebody does are said, and so I was like, yeah, but you don't you know the second cenism, so and and it's a fundamental state for all of us, of the various things. But in that moment, when you're being that way to be a partner, you're now being cynical. Right even though you would profess to say I love you, right now, I'm being cynical. So I'm bringing sentences up the table, which again, okay, that's fine as long as you know that's what you're bringing to the table. See what you were going to say was here's why I'm cynical. That will actually make no difference in the quality of your relationship. Understanding that you're being cynical will make a difference in the quality of your relationship. Now, you might have concerns, you might have worries, you might have things on your mind, you might have fierce and it would be entirely appropriate for if they're there for you, if your partner's open to you having that kind of conversation in that moment, that you would be able to vocalize those but more like here's what's rattling around in my cage rather than yeah, but you you understand the difference, like I'm I'm getting like this is what I rassle with as a human being, right like I'm being And it's important that you understand what you're wrassling was. It's importantly you know, like you know, yeah, wrastle with that, Like that's a thing for me. Now I'm going to offer you something for you personally, are you Are you going for me to give you an all right? All right, there's some unresolved thing that you are but being loved and lovable from being a kid. Yeah, I don't know how it was, but you had that can experience like you're just not love, they're known, they're appreciated. Something like that manifesting over and over and over and so manifests in the ways and the people you choose to share your life with and in some ways but in in other ways. If someone shows up in your life who's not that way, you want to manage their love for you mm hmm because they can't coexist with what you fundamentally believe to be true. Does that make sense right. I don't want to sound like I'm some kind of freaking psychic or something, because I'm not um. But I do want you to know like we are very much driven by what's in the background of our thoughts, not but what's in the for not bio logic. There's like a there's like the logic, you would say, and then there's the logic that drives here. Right. So, as uncomfortable as it as to hear, any relationship you've been in has been no accident, right, It's been something you've been Whether you're conscious at us or not doesn't matter. It's something you've been available for even though you might not want it. Yeah, you're available for it. So I would invite you to try on that the work that if I would you that I'd be interested in dealing would be like getting to the heart of that experience yourself not being loved m because that that's what will cause more damage than anythy In fact, I would assert has caused the most damage. We you, oh for sure. I mean that's one thou percent. I mean even to this day, like I know you no, I mean it's so true because even to this day, it's like I'm still trying to get the love from my ex husband who hates me, you know, and I'm like, well do you hate me? You're the one that ruined. It's like I'm still trying to get love from people that, you know. But it all semes back to my father because he left and I was in love, you know, like the little girl, and like, I know, I know all that, but I can't know. You don't know, you don't know, you don't but I know it, but I don't believe that, like I am. So it's like when he laughed, when he laughed right in your dad last Yeah, all right, your daddie wanted row key now, okay, so so put your freaking seat belts on, all right. So how old were you when he left? Well, he started to be absent when I was five, um, but he officially left the family when I was thirteen, all right. And then it's twenty ages of five and thirteen. Would he come and go? Yeah. I just felt like he was always angry and I would want to like have that like dad dad, but he never answered me back, and so it just felt like because he wasn't really like and now we have a great relationship, but I just he wasn't present, and I just he was always very angry, and I was scared of him. What did you make that mean? Oh, that I'm not a good girl, that I'm not worth it, I'm not lovable, I'm not You gotta set with me a minute. You gotta think for a set Huh, too flippant. So I need you to need you to kind of be with me if for a moment, Okay, just be with me for a moment. I want you to kind of put yourself back then, like just lest your thoughts go back to some of those incidents, because some of them are more wives than others. Like I remember the time when right, you're you've got a couple of those in mind. Right, Why you have those in mind, by the way, because they were peaval m hm. So you have a memory at that moment, but you also have all the emotional attachment to that moment and it's still here. So if I talk to you about that moment, you start to share everything that moment, all of those experiences will be right. You feel like you're there right as it falls out of your mind. So I want you to kind of recollect one of those moments. You don't even have to tell me. Okay, that's when you recollect the moment. It cannot be in the presence at the moment, like that moment that you demand Berner when he and you and the earliest one you can remember, just the first one, like, yeah, I was probably blah blah blah, and we were setting or standing or you know, where were you and what do you remember about what was going on around here? And he said that that that, and you had said blah blah blah. And in that moment, what did you say to yourself, I'm not safe. Good good job, which still rattles around in your case. That's why you're so um and dependent mm hmmmm mhm h m, fearfully independent. You're not easy to love. No, you're heart to love mcause you're so robust sol you know, so if you you're a challenge for somebody to love and yet your fundamental complaint is I'm not loved. I'm not safe, I'm not loved. Do you know how I knew that was the words that you said. I'm not saying. You know why I knew that was it because it's not sophisticated. Simple that's what I ken would say to themselves. Now you see how like right now, you're kid, you're traveled, you get that, you're doing great, you're doing great. Letter all up, Let all up, let a, let's shut up. It's good, this is good stuff for you. Oh, I just I just hate it because I don't want it to ruin it Like I don't want to not be lovable. That's all I want is love. That's all the independence. That's all the independence talking right now. Yeah, like, let it just let it be, don't wrestle with it, just let it be. Just let it be. Let it be itself. You don't have to make that be any other way than the way that it is. Mhm. See the wrestling or something like that is actually what keeps saying existence. So if I keep wrastling with it, I'm not enough. I'm living a life of I'm not enough. If I let it be itself, if I give it a little better room for itself. I'm not defined by it. So but this is the sort of work that you need to do. You need to, you need to, you need to kind of do that work to kind of peal back some layers and deal with your own sentence. See that's why my relationship book it's not about you can get along with somebody else. That's part of that. But it's like, who is endless in relationship? Well, and your relationship is I'm not safe, So back the golf. That's who's in your relationship. Yeah right, And it's been in your relationship and it's pushed people away who said they did love you? Right, So then that's how and what and then and then but again it's funny. This is this kind of cycle of I don't this. And my second book book was called wise No that that was my fa book. It was called stop doing that and I break down like what yourself sabotage is really all about, like what it actually is doing and why it does what it does. And unless you fully understand that, you'll just live a life of being run by it. It'll run you and you get self focused on your circumstances that you won't see what's running it. So if you think, like if my internal mechanism, so part of mine is I'm not smart enough, right, that's part of my internal mechanism. I'm a New York Times best selling offer, and my internal mechanism as I'm not smart enough. So I had to really recognize what was a play in my life before I could everbody even write a book. Wow, that never goes away. It comes up, it shows up, and it starts to can influence my decisions and my thoughts if I don't take responsibility for it, because it'll it's again something from when I was a kid that I learned that I would now have to overcome to make it in this life. You get why it's there. It's more survival than we'd like to imagine. But but the background noise, it's not you, it's automatically what's there with you. Why you got moved by that is because you started to see, really see what that life has actually been like for you. M the life of that noise. And that's what you have to start really understanding, like what you're sentencing yourself. Tips it's not about finding the right person and so but finally coming to terms whether when you've become mhm, I as certain that human beings can you can love anybody. I've got a tchert love like authentically, I love it like I can. You know, I tell like I get objects, you know, like guitars, and you know, like we love that thing. I do um And of course I love my wife and I love my children dearly. But but at the same time, it was that a struggle for me growing up was being able to say it, like I couldn't get math inside here. Reinvent myself in my forties to become a loving man, because if I looked at who had been like if you're looking in your relationship, you're being cynical, right and you're being cynical a lot more than you think you are. And in those moments where you catch yourself being cynical, you're like, hold on, this is I want this to be about love and loving Right now, I said I'd be loving, and I'm gonna do I'm gonna deal with us in a loving one, not a cynical way. You'd already interrupting those patterns. You're already changing your pathway. And for me, when I when I when I really started to be taking myself on like that. It was expressing my love to people, taking the time look him in the eye and say I love you. And it was weird that the beginning, you know, it was weird just I felt as if somebody can over my body. No, it's gonna makes me practice hugs because I don't. Right, that's fine, breakdown some of your default and what what in not going of fuel the philosophy ontology. It kind of breaks down some of your default ways of being an acting so you're actively breaking them down. Um therapists call cognitive behavioral therapy, but it's been around for about two thousand years anyway. Um Stoic histoics were doing it, but but behaving in ways that are more consistent with who you would say you are and the absence of the feelings for sure. So it's doing in the absence of fieling. So some things I'm like feel cynical, but I catch myself like, oh, I'm doing that's some thing that I get and I'm about to make this relationship about that too. I'm gonna love this person. And I might even say, listen, this is awkward for me, this is not I am not comfortable right now, Yeah, I think we should. We should probably ug right like that, you're dealing with yourself. Yeah, and by the way, if you start acknowledging things like that, that's one of the very few times in your day when you'll actually be being authentically you mm hm, instead of the you that you've kind of built up to try and make it in this life. I have like one last question that just came from you know, me saying that I didn't feel safe when I look back on my relationship with Max husband or any relationship that was really um my longer ones that they were all abusive and I was so unsafe in those and the other ones I pushed away. So what that is that like, you have to you have to prove it true, justify to justify your sentence as Yeah, there you go. You have to prove it is accurate, then you can justify be an independent the center. I knew you're going to hit me because I'm not safe. Here we go again, this is why I'm independent, cynical. So ultimately that's kind of like what all human beings have driven to do is to prove what you have subconsciously concluded to be true. So they prove it and then they overcome it, and then they prove it, and then they overcome it, and then they prove it. The overcome it, and they prove it, they overcome and then they can die. Yeah, and then they call it a life until you read some of my books and you're like, what what am I doing? Stop? I want to go off. This is b s. I want to do something else. I want to be somebody else. And I say, you can be somebody else. You can actually be someone else, but you have to fully see acknowledging type responsibility for who you have become. First, Damn Gary Tricking laying the God. I just I am obsessed with you. Thank you. It's so much. I'm gonna read Love in every other book right now. I'm going on Amazon immediately, and so is everyone that's listening right now. Um, but thank you. I appreciate your words, and I appreciate um you grounding this conversation. So thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, and I just want to thank you for your generoso and sharing yourself with so many people, because, um, you know, when somebody does that, when you kind of get a vulnerable that makes a difference for lots of people, and so you can sit there knowing that you got a lot of something for yourself. But at the same time, like you should know that there's people out there who just got rocked by what you share have been how you share a bit and you're inspiring people to take themselves on and change their old lines. And you know that takes a walk, you know, because in this format and doing what we do right, there's a lot of looking good and there's a lot of like, you know, having to keep your together. And I say, for what you know, like admitting you don't have your ship together is the new having your together. Amen to that. Gary, Well, thank you so much, but I appreciate it and we'll have you back on for sure. So thank you, welcome, thanks for having me alright by, Gary, I'll work on my accents, don't worry. Thank you. Oh my god, I love my kind of like just therapists, but oh I loved it. I just like because I had to prove it over and over that I wasn't safe. Yeah, it's like true, you had to prove it true. And then I'm like, yeah, because we've always kind of wondered like what is that, Like why does that happen? Yeah, And it's wow. I just like how it is because I'm trying to go that way in therapy anyway now. But it's like really just looking at yourself, not why are things in this relationship doing this? Why? Like and that is just it's powerful because if you just own yourself and take care of yourself and not what's Nick doing wrong or what's this person doing wrong? Or who you know? Yeah, and we're all cynical. Like when he said that, I was like, yeah, you know about myself. Yeah, he rocked me rock. I mean that was just but like, but now it makes sense why I chose those types of people over and over again, Like because I'm proving that I'm not safe anytime. Up yep, I told you, I told himself. Wow, Janna, good job, you really proved it to yourself. Good on your girl's good. Um all right, Well that I'm gonna just globle my nose now, so I'll see you guys next week