Wine Down with Janna Kramer and I Heart Radio Podcast. Do you guys know what my name spells? Backwards? God? Damn the schools falling? Hold on a second, are you going to say? Why are you laughing? No? Try it again, right out right out, Jana, right now, Like, but don't do don't do this, don't do this, swoop with the j, do a straight with the j. Okay, but it doesn't really spell you're implying that it spells anal backwards. It looks like it. Yeah, everyone has been sending me like, look at your name backwards Anal, And I'm like, I've had a name for thirty eight years. I'm well aware that my name spells anal. I would have never thought. I just it's that thing going around with the balloons. Yeah, but like I see, like the actual mirror image of it is like behind Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it well. Speaking as a cram, I mean, you know it can always be worse, right dead joked. Did you have any nicknames growing up? I mean when I was a little older, people called me Kathy because I hated it, Kathy because I hate it. So my college friends called me Kathy, but now just cat. Joli about it wof not that that's bad. Sorry, Kathyr but not no, But I mean I have Kathy, like I know, older Kathy. I just don't seem like Kathy. Well, like you're young, right, it sounds like an old name. But also Katherine and are two different names for sure. That's like when my friend used to call me Jane and I'm like, my name is Janna. That's a completely different Jan. I'm not six years old, you know, Like, but it's the same thing. Yeah, Kathy and Jane are both both are both boomer names. Yes, yeah, my mom is Kathy seven. He said, hold up here, Karen's like, no one would need their baby now, Kathy, I mean if you did. And I'm sorry, but I don't think. I don't think anyone would name their baby Cathy. Yeah, I mean I imagine maybe, Like I mean, people name like Nora. My mom's name is Nora, but like Kathy, like, what's your baby's name, Kathy, Like I just like I don't see that. I don't know maybe not no, And I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by the cyclical nature of names. Like I'm Mark, my wife is Amy. There are no baby marks. There are no baby amies right now, like zero, not happening. What you think Mark's a biblical name, you think could be like always popular, but nope, cycles just like everything else. And I feel like, in you know what, fifty years, all the old folks homes are going to be full of Ashley's and Brittany weird. That's so true, and then our kids are gonna be like, like you would actually name your son Ashley like or whatever. It's such an old person name. And it's like speaking of, how much would it suck to have your name Karen right now? Oh? Bad? That would be awful. Sorry, Okay, that's amazing, amazing, point it would change my name, that'd be really Yeah, sorry, Karen's that sucks, especially if you're not a Karen. But if you're a Karen, you're a Karen. But most Karen's names aren't Karen. What do you mean, Like, most actual Karens are not their names not Karen unless you get real lucky. Yeah. I liked having like I liked being the only Jan in school. Yeah, like it was unique for sure. Yeah, and the Katherine's unique at all. I didn't know any Katherine's really, I don't think so you didn't get that. How do you spell it? I mean, like you know, it's like I mean j J N A. Oh. I'm like, how do people not know how to splay your name? Yeah? No, you have like three million. I actually don't want Katherine time out. Everybody is anyone watching The Bachelor? I heard he's I heard he's like, so, I was hearing some rumors about how he was talking to Um Susie said her name, yes, and I watched back a clip. I was like, how did they even air that? What was he doing? Gaslighting the hell out of her? Like totally not even like and then Nick Vile came back as it wasn't gaslighting, but it wasn't like cool. But in my opinion, I'm like, dude, that was gaslighting. And then the funniest thing was maybe I'm just like whatever with it. But so I I was talking to actually, I'll tell you afterwards, Um, and the headline was the Bachelor Clinton doesn't think he gaslet Susie. I understand that it appears that way, Like that's also a very gaslighting comment. I understand that it appears that way. No, it actually was that way, Like there's no way like to edit out how he was like he didn't even like he just totally disregarded everything. She was saying, Um, East and uron do you agree or disagree? Well, I just want to say one of ourther if I and I heard radio podcast, the Almost Famous Podcast, interviewed Clayton That's that's the one I've got the quote from from yeah and actually yeah. I asked him if he was gaslighting and he said, He's like, well, no, because I looked at the definition of gaslighting and that means that you're doing something with nefarious purposes and I did not do that, So therefore it is not gaslighting narcissist because there intentional and non intentional gaslighting. Yeah, I mean yeah, I was like, it doesn't you're doing it now to me, you know, But I'm like so like in my mind then I go, okay, I know this is these are all like you know, and even our therapist jokes about this. She's like, it's these are very big words gas lighting, narcissists, like they're they're overused like crazy right now. But I also think we're understanding the definition of them, and to me, it seems like he's if he's not even acknowledging that like those were gaslighting comments and that he didn't even like she was expressing her feelings, her thoughts, her emotions and he just did not even like see them to me again, which shows that he's not very empathetic at all. And then to go on y'all's podcast and say that it's like to me, he's just like, it's like he's set in his own ways. I mean, he might, you know, be checking off some major narcissist box. There's there too, but I'm like, you have Catherine the full background here, because she was saying to him, because he's the final three now, all right, and that's when they do the fantasy sweets, right, she spend the night with each of them, so she was the third of the fantasy sweets. And soon as he said to him, hold up, you know, the first two were like, let's get it on. Let's get it on, so you like, hold up, did you sleep with the other two? He's like, uh, yeah, And she's saying I have a problem with that. He's saying, what, you're a problem with me sleeping with other women? If I had known that was going to be a problem for you, I might have thought about this differently. So that's the that's the the idea of pretending that she wouldn't care that you slept with two other people within the past week is the most offensive part of it. I think, Wait, they aired all of this. First of all, well he didn't are any graphic love making, but but no, but I'm saying that respond his They aired all of his, like his how he how he talked back to her, and I'm like, if if any any like good yeah, exactly would be like I could totally understand how that would upset you. You know, this is the unfortunate part they were down to and you know, like I mean, just completely turned it around on her. One sal in person made her feel like the crazy one, which is also gas lighting. I'm sorry you made her feel crazy. She she didn't say that, but you made her feel crazy to have that feeling. That is the definition of gas lighting. Sorry, it is you were making that person feel crazy. You did not validate at all, You didn't even like yeah. And then Caitlin Bristo goes you know, she she goes on to say, like I saw her comment about how well, you know, when it goes down to that, that's fine. You can have you know, like for me to like, I would want to have sex with them because I want to know that everyone's like everything's working down there, you know. But if I was in the opposite, I wouldn't, And if I was in Susie's position, I would be upset. I get, I get how that is totally hypocritical and totally not fair. Well, I think it's just about being able to have your feeling, whether whichever way it is. Yes, also agreed, you can have an opinion and not be Yeah, okay, yeah, so the fact that I mean, yes, it's the Bachelor world, right, the Bachelor is different than real life. Yes, whatever she's feeling is invalidable. Yeah, it doesn't matter what And that's okay for her to that is totally normal for her to feel that way. And the fact that he reacted in that way is just so wrong. And I'm just like, I'm I'm not a fan at all because he doesn't because he doesn't acknowledge it. That's the thing. He doesn't acknowledge it, and how he's handled it. Still like that had a chance to come back and say, yeah, he had a chance to go on one of the biggest I heard podcasts with Benn and Ashley. You know, like he's still and he's still defended. I could see how it seems that way. No, there's no seems there's no kind of it is how it was. Okay, So he said he's the one that then came back and said, I can see how it seems that way. Wow, Okay, that's pretty bad. He should have said. I shouldn't have said that period. Yeah, and I should have acknowledged for feeling I like the idea of the day I proposed to my wife. I said, Okay, so here's the I slept with a couple other women this week, and now I've decided you're the winner. Congratulations. I know what I know. Now I know for sure it's you, Like, how is this? How is that life? Like? I just I mean, I mean, that's the fan poward to you. But now it's just not my it's not my jam. It is very hypocritical though of me. Huh. So you're saying it's hypocritical because you would want to sleep with them to make sure things were working out down there. But what is the other side, Why are you being a hypocrite because I wouldn't want him to do the same. Oh, yeah. No, Yeah, that's hypocritical. I am voting it. It's funny. I would be like, choose, just choose me, Just choose me. You don't need to sleep the women choose me. Yeah, but that's um. They can never make it on the Bachelor or Bachelor or whatever. I wouldn't make it on either one of them. Yeah, there's no way. Um. But yeah, I I just I don't. I don't. I just I really just don't like how he's handled. Yeah, it's unfortunate backlash of what he deserves. Honestly, No, I'm saying I shouldn't say what he deserves. It's what I just don't like the backlash and how he's handled. I just don't like. I just it just feels it feels very familiar. And I don't like that he's not owning and apologizing. He's not owning anything or apologizing. And I just don't unless because that's not fair for Susie at all. And I hope she becomes a bat short and Mary is an amazing man. Oh she probably won't be. Props to the Bachelor though. This season was very quiet and now everybody's talking about the Bachelor, so hey, they know what they're doing over there, you know, at the expense of the kind of person you're going to be. You know, I don't know. That's hard. I see your point, Mark, but I don't know. Yeah, I mean, go Susan's all I have to say. I don't I don't like him. If he wants to be friends with someone, I have someone he can be friends with, so they might get along. Um, Mark Scratch has had on that one. I don't know what that was. Don't worry about you're trying to hook up Clayton with another guy friend. I know friends where you're going, they'd be buddies. Yeah, they could grow up, Yeah, totally braw and not apologize for they did. So, Oh it's good. We're about to have Gabby Bernstein and she's going to school us and make our lives better. So stake a break and get her on. Oh Happy and day, Oh happy day. When Jesus why why, that's why I start singing it. I was like, why am I singing happy days? Well, because Gabby Bernstein's book is called Happy Days? How are you guys doing? You know what? Good? We both had therapy today, so that was love therapy today too. I'm gonna. We all had therapy today. I kind of love that because we're all in a nice clear mental today was like my, I don't know you all therapy session was we can all go around. We're on the room. Mine which is mine is later later? Okay, well you can say what you're bringing to therapy if you want, but no, I Mine was like I just needed to like own a bunch of stuff today to my therapist. You know yeah got that. It feel good? Yeah, it feels great because she goes you know what She's like. Not many people can actually come into therapy and tell like the full truth. So I was like, I don't think I told my therapist the truth for for like a decade, right, same, I was like, she's the She's the first therapist that I've ever been honest with. I've always like I've always been like teetering on, Like it's just I would leave out something or I wouldn't say, well yeah I actually did do I did cheat on that first or yeah you know what I mean. Like I've always like teetered on like telling the truth because you're now it's like all about where you're at. You can tell the truth when you feel safe in your truth, right, Yeah, there you go. What was yours today? More a m d R. Good? Good, Yeah, that's good helping you. Yeah, And I'm actually surprised because I'm kind of a very what I'm not kind of I'm a very guarded person. So I'm actually been surprised how well it's gone. Yeah, because that's that you gotta get because even though I have a hard time with the m d Yeah, I think she was worried it wouldn't really work well with men. It does. It works. Have you guys explained to your listeners what E M d R is? Do you want me to tell you? But but but re refresh our listeners because yeah, it's it's so funny that we're starting the conversation about what therapy was like today because literally that's just exactly what I I just put out this but happy days, which we'll talk about. And the joke with my therapist is, who do you think is going to play you in the movie? Because she's like the number one role in this book other than me. You know that through line of therapy throughout our life is such a massive game changer for what we can show up as now and so for E m d R, which was a huge part of my therapy practice. I will drive home what that is for everybody. It's eye movement to sensitization and reprocessing. And so what happens is when we stimulate the bilateral brain functioning, whether it's with moving your eyes back and forth or having a buzzer in either hand or a buzzer in either ear, the brain opens up its window of tolerance to reprocess old traumas, old phobias, patterns that we've been stuck in and literally bring us out new depending on how big T the trauma is, if it's a big T trauma or a small TI trauma, it's a smaller, bigger T trauma like being sexually abused or living through a catastrophic event or having you know, alcoholic parent, or a small T trauma. Could be often considered being bullied as a small TI trauma, but that's actually, my opinion, a big T trauma. But depending on how big or small the T in your trauma, the longer may take with the m DR journey, but it works. You feel relief immediately, Yeah, I did, I did. I m dare with from anxiety and like that was like a game changer because I like was having real bad anxiety um a couple of years ago. But I will also say to add to this point in which I want to then go into your book, is um my anxiety. I mean I still I had like a minor one, but like, I have not had hardly any anxiety post divorce. And I thought my anxiety would be the most post divorce because I you know, I was I'd be alone and this and all the things that I feared. But it's like, I think when you remove things that are I realized, I'm like, oh wow, that was making me have a lot more anxiety. All the like the toxicity and the you know, the all just all of it, you know. So I think that was like, we're really eye opening for me, Like, holy crap, I don't have the anxiety that I had for the last however many years. Well, yeah, you were living in a state of hyper vigilance, he explained that, so you're you're constantly on high alert, yes, and like in the trenches and yeah, when you don't know, when you don't know what you're going to get every day, right, So you know, we all have have different attachment styles, and when our attachment styles are activated in relationships, particularly romantic relationships, it can really put us into a state of terror. Right. So uh, let's let's say if you were feeling insecure in that relationship, which we understand that insecure attachment, that anxious attachment of what am I going to get today? I gotta you know, fawn and cling to keep it or I've got to I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but just speaking on behalf of the anxiously attached trying to trying to stay, trying to hold something that maybe falling apart or whatever it may be, puts you into that loop of an anxiety. And in that anxiety loop, you create this full blown body hyper vigilance. The somatic experience of that is like constant state of stress, constant state of terror, which then shows up in your body. Is anxiety obviously may have maybe maybe it caused other physical issues too. I mean that happens for many of us, like gastro issues or neck issues or back pain. There's so much that that comes out of that chronic state of anxiety. Yeah, and I think I remember one of my I mean, shoot, someone got her husband was a saxotic snick and cancer, because it's just like what the stress that anxiety causes on your body. And that's right, it's right. And the chronic state of that chronic state of of being in fight or flight. Yeah, you know what am I going to have to find out today? But Happy Days? Let's go to Happy Days. Tell me everything about it. I'm so excited. I've ordered it on Amazon. I cannot wait to read it. So what can I what can mean? It's and actually what we're talking about right here, right now. I mean, you guys went right for It's Happy Days, but it's the guided path from trauma to profound freedom and inner peace. In the book, I talked about my journey of remembering. First of all, when I first got clean and sober, I got sober, I didn't understand why I was a cocaine addict. And then putting down the drugs, I picked up workaholism, and I poked up dependency and all of the other ways that we run. And when I was thirty six years old, I was by that point in my life, you know, I'd written six or seven books, I've been on Oprah, I'd had all these big life accomplishments. But I was dying on the inside. Well, I didn't know, and I kept questioning, and I was brave enough to wonder, you know, what is behind this? And I was having panic attacks and meltdowns and cracking and cracking and cracking. And a few months into that, I had a dream and the dream was of being sexually abused as a child and confronting it as an adult. When I woke up, I was like, no, making way, never going to look at that again. Don't want to talk about that again. No. And a few days later in therapy, my therapist and I started to talk about some things we've never spoken about before, and I remembered I had the full body remembrance of a dissociated memory of being abused as a child. And so that was the moment of recognizing, oh, that's what I've been running from, that's the impermissible, that's the exiled part of me. And I was thirty six. And that also was the day that I began the journey of really the undoing, the undoing and the reprocessing through e M d R, through somatic experiencing, through internal family systems therapy, which I'd love to introduce you guys too, if you don't know about it yet, through spiritual practices, through body based work and all that's in the book. Literally, this is your about you guys are gonna I'm so excited. It's the whole, It's my whole guided path from trauma to profound freedom and inner peace. And I keep saying out loud that like, there's literally no freaking way in hell that I would put my name on this cover and my face on this cover with that subtitle if I wasn't on the other side and living that subtitle of profound freedom and inner peace. And so this is like the trauma cliff notes of what to do when you're in that moment of facing into your truth. But like, hey, that's amazing. The other part of me is like how do you get there? Though, Like I'm like what, like tell It's like tell me that, like because it's like I want to be the girl on the cover of that book. You know that's actually really um beautiful vision Janna is I want to be the girl in the cover of that book. In the beginning, I actually asked the reader to write a vision statement of like what is it feel like? Where are you going? And so that was kind of cool. That they just went there. I We'll tell you. It begins with having the willingness to accept and recognize that you've been running, that there's some ways that you've been running. An anxiety is actually another form of running from the pain and the suffering. It's sort of a what in internal family systems is known as a protector part, and to witness and notice all of the ways that we've been acting out, whether it be addictive patterns or uh. Because truly, you know, underneath all addiction is trauma. I'm sure you're very familiar with that. So we build up all these coping mechanisms, which I refer to with my training with i f S as protector parts protection. So work ahol is um, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, UM, anxiety, these even physical pain is like another protector part to avoid having to face the exiled, impermissible child, parts of shame and trauma big to your small t And so the first step is really witnessing and noticing all the ways that you've been habitually in these patterns of numbing down, pushing down, and anesthetizing the impermissible, and then goes into the chapter of becoming brave enough to wonder, and I very gently take the reader by the hand and just help them begin to acknowledge and notice what might be underneath that suffering. And all along the way, I'm constantly guiding back to different therapeutic models so that they can get the resources and support and take it further and talk about how trauma affects the body and the somatic experience, and how we hide behind the body. I go into a lot of body based practices in the book, and in the next chapters that come, I talk about internal family systems therapy and how we can reparent ourselves. I also, of course talk about E m d R and I give E m DR practices that somebody can do in real time. I'll give you one right now. So if you're not, if you don't have the privilege of having an m d R therapist yet or ever, here's a practice. So it's called rage on the page, where you journal for twenty minutes. This is based on the work of doctor Well. The journaling method is that my girlfriend Nicole gave me this method based on the work of John Sarno, who was a mind body doctor that really focused on the psycho somatic effects of our trauma, and so meditate for twenty minutes, excuse me, journal for twenty minutes. It's called I called it rage on the page. So get your out for twenty minutes in your journal, and then meditate for twenty minutes for the reprocessing, all the while listening to E M d R music. So I've got a hold. We can put this in your show notes, but I have like a whole playlist for the M d R music and letting it just just be that bilateral brain stimulation, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth while you're raging on the page getting it all out, and then in the twenty minutes of meditation reprocessing. So that's just a practice in there. That's an example of many practices in the book. But that's when that people could begin to do, and museums you are safely on their own. I've been I've been writing a bunch that would be helpful. I'll incorporate those other two things because I think I leave it just with the rage, and I don't I don't then recover M M. And you're writing a book right now, I cannot confirm nor deny. Okay, So when in your lifetime you decided to write a book. I really recommend doing some of the E m DR meditations when you're done with your writing process, because when you write, I know, whatever book he writes going to be very deep and it can also be re traumatizing and triggering to do so, so just make sure you take care of yourself with that kind of music afterwards, and obviously like book ending with therapy and things like that. Writing this book for me was extremely activating, and it was for activating for all my loved ones and publishers and everyone that that that read it. You know, read you, guys, the introduction, just for a sect, like three paragraphs, just to give you a sense of what happened when I wrote this book. You know what might come introduction, the truth about this book. We're anxious for you, Gaby, said my publisher after reading the first past of the manuscript. It feels too vulnerable, they continued, You're revealing one difficult moment after the next. You're not showing your true strength. My ability to be this vulnerable is my true strength, I responded. The conversation carried on with several moments of tears, passionate explanations, defending the manuscript mixed with mutual agreement and love. Well, this is a challenging conversation to have. It was necessary. This book is different from the eighth that came before. This book reveals parts of me that I had never known were there until I started this writing process. This book tells the story of how to survive and thrive. This is my story of recovering from trauma. Wow. OK, I'll remember forget when my my editor called me because I had it. We had a second book deal with Mimi and Max, and then obviously that went away, and I told her what I wanted to write, and she's like, well, I think you should wait until you're like happy and in a new relationship. And I was like, I don't want to touch on like a guy in my next book, Like I don't want to be like, oh look at me. I'm happy now, I'm in a relationship and I've got it all figured out because of X. And So I think there's something so beautiful about like the vulnerability that you share, and I think people are scared of that. It doesn't mean that you're weak or you're not strong. It means that you're so freaking strong. You know because you're sharing it and you're you're relating to so many people like M. I think what I love about is like when I whenever I read book, so I'm like, I don't want to know how just like how you figured it out, Like I want to know, like what you went through, M, and then how you got to like where you're at now, and then also like I also want to know too from you, Gabby, like yes, you have happy days and you've worked through your unfortunate trauma and your anxieties. But it's like I also want to know, like I've been in therapy for however, fourteen plus years, and it's like I also want to know that, like it's normal that things still come up and then I still have to face it and like I'm not just like oh I'm great and I'm free and I'm so happy, you know what I mean, Like because I'm like I can't like because or maybe I didn't, I don't know, Like I feel like I'm gonna forever be growing and healing and learning and maybe things will pass trigger me and stuff like that, Like yeah, I guess I can say that while I can put my face on this cover and say that I am on the other side. I still have therapy at tonight. Sure, I'm still shining the crystal that is me. I'm still focusing on strengthening the practices that I have in my internal landscape and being able to really use life as an opportunity to get closer and closer to these methods and live them and know them in my heart. And I don't think that we stop, but I do think that there is there is a light at the end of the tunnel, because I do know what it was like living in trauma and PTSD and working through it and not thinking that there was a light at the end of the tunnel, not thinking that there was ever a way I could feel safe in my body, not believing that I could ever feel safe in my letting people in more closely, being more vulnerable with close people in my life. And now I can. So I really want to give voice to recovery and to what it looks like to be on the other side and then really acknowledge, you know, like I've been in sober recovery for sixteen years, I still ard of myself as an alcoholic and a drug addict, because we don't want to forget where we came from. We don't want to forget who we are capable of. But I have addressed the root cause condition of that addiction and being on the other side of the addiction and now the trauma. I I want to remember and I want to stay closed and I want to when I would say, when things get good, keep keep working harder because you want to really maintain and sustain that level of peace and inner freedom. So is it when someone says, like, you know, to stop, you know, bringing it the past and like it's shameful and stuff, so that it's like when someone is still has their shame ahold of them, Like what does that? What does that mean? Does that mean that they you know, they haven't worked through it or mm hmmm um. There's a chapter in the book called Speaking the Unspeakable, and it's all about shame and it helps the reader recognize their shame response because we all have different types of shame response is depending on maybe we have we have many I can I can share with you some of them. And facing our shame is the most shame is the most impermissible feeling, and so facing into that shame can be horrifying, terrifying, I did a workshop on this last week, and it was like people got really triggered and activated when they were just even acknowledged that shame and gave voice to it. And so we have these different ways of avoiding and pushing and running from the shame. So denying the shame, right saying like oh that never happened, I'm fine, or things were a lot better than I than I than I said, or anything like that, right attacking others. So when we feel shame triggered and we go into that shame response, what our initial response could be to go attack back, because we don't want to face what's within, so projecting out what we don't want to look at, and there's attack yourself. Right on My mantra for many many years was I'm a piece of MHM. That was literally the what I said to myself on a daily basis, even while writing multiple self help books. I still but I want to really identify this because that's what my publishers were saying that like, we're nervous because you're being so vulnerable, you're not sharing your true strength. And they were right in a way, because I wasn't showing that I was able to be strong, and I was able to be a presence and a source of light in people's lives. And I was able to be an expression of spiritual truth and be a spiritual teacher and show up in those ways while going through so much. You're, Jenny, You're a great example of that. You know, It's like you were still in the pursuit of freedom and sharing the truth and bringing light even in the midst of some of your darkest moments. And I find it so fascinating that we're back here right now. Guys. When we first spoke was like the week that you were talking about your divorce. Yeah, and and you know, I will say it's then, I mean, it's it's almost been a year since my divorce, and just like seeing the light and seeing how different I am, It's like there is light, but in that moment, you're like, there's no light. I'm gonna be in this pain forever. But even your bravery to speak out back soon, Um, but you're even your bravery is just to tell the truth about where you were at was a step closer to that light. You don't realize that in the moment when you're in the thick of it. Yeah, But being able to give voice to these truths. Yeah, how do you deal with UM walking through this in your relationship? Is it hard? Yeah? Yeah, you know. Listen, my my husband edits my books UM after my my editor at the publishing how but in house editor, and then it goes to Zach and then it goes to the publisher. And he was really triggered by this book. I talk about my suicidal, my experience with suicidal postpartum depression. That was like super activating for him because it was trauma for him to living through that. And truly the fifteen years that we've been together, he's lived through my trauma journey and that's also traumatizing for him. So we do a lot of work. We do a lot of work on our relationship. We do a lot of work. UM. We practice internal family systems therapy, which I'm trained in now, and we have this powerful practice of being able to witness each other in these different parts of who we are. So when I'm seeing him activated, I can think, oh, that's a child part that's super activated right now, and rather than raging at him, I can have compassion towards him. That's major. Yeah, what would be UM when I was talking about therapist to day too. I was telling her, like, you know, it's just it's hard being in a relationship post a healthy relationship after everything, and how do you, like, what would you say to like me or other women that like are in that next relationship um to like not let the anxiety of a what if? Or I don't want to be duped again, or like um or like manifesting or I don't know. I just I feel like it's just like really hard to like feel like it's real. Sure, so, so a lot of it is about forgiving your ex, forgiving my ax. Uh. I'll tell you something, Gabby. Let me say this. I do not want an apology from him anymore. That's what I wanted for like a year. Mm hmm. I do not want an apology from him anymore because I don't I won't say, I won't believe it, and be I don't think he'll ever apologize. I kind of got into a place now where I actually don't even want it and I can say that and like, really you mean that, right? Great, But I do have a hard time for giving someone that doesn't acknowledge the abuse. Wow. Yeah, that's how that's tough. Yeah, I guess forgiveness comes from the seat of compassion because and I'm not suggesting that you push yourself into this, but it does help in your future relationships and your current new relationship because forgiveness dissolves the history, because when we don't have forgiveness, we're taking the past and projecting it onto the present and the future. Forgiveness we can dissolve those past experiences and be present in the present without bringing the baggage with us. So the one of the clearest pathways to forgiveness is through compassion. And so I'm going to speak about your ax, and I hope this isn't triggering, but I'm gonna speak about him as a as someone I know, not I don't literally know him at all, but someone who I have tremendous compassion for. And you may not be here yet, Jenna, right, but I just want to speak on behalf of one addict to another. When we become addicted, we are in what is known as like a firefighter protect or state, and and we are doing whatever we can to numb out impermissible feelings from our history. Go ahead, I was just gonna say, that's not what I want him to like, that's not the piece that I've already forgiven him. I forgive him on the that added part. It's the other stuff. It's not being able to own up to his his ways of being. Is that correct? The yeah, the like the abusiveness behind it all. Let's take that even further than someone who could be that abusive and not own up to it is seriously suffering mother. Someone who could be that abusive and not own up to it and not care for the mother of his children is in a extreme amount of pain and suffering, and it is extraordinarily terror, terror filled with terror at the fact of facing those truths. Or maybe I'm just crazy because he seems to be happy. Well, listen, one of the ways that we pushed down our shame is denial and dissociation. And so this this man, there's no way that he's not living with a lot of impermissible shame. And so his way of coping, potentially and God bless him, is through denial and association, creating a new storyline. It wasn't that bad. I wasn't that bad. Everything is okay. I'm going to show myself that everything is not bad. That was straight up to And then also Another of shame response is to attack back, to blame and shame the other, because there's his extraordinary shame is too painful and too impermissible to feel into that all he can do to survive is to blame and shame you. So my point is not that that that this is dubbed for you, right, That's not my point. That's like, you've been through so much, you are so strong, you are so brave. My My point is that he is severely suffering, so to have compassion, which then leads to forgiveness. If he just started to practice to lean into what he must how hard it must be to live in that shame. Okay, I can look right away. You just shifted instantly like wow, that sucks, right, that really really sucks. That really sucks, right, like you know right now we all want to like and it's not excusing. I want to say, it's still not an it's not excusing anything. It's not like yeah, forgiveness does not mean that you excuse the behaviors. Forgive. It means that the behavior is no longer run your world. Yes, yes, yes, yes like that and feel like you used to. I mean, I understand it's different now because you're not divorced anymore, but you were really good at being in that place for him and being compassionate. I mean, I mean, you're divorced now, you were not divorced then, but you it was so easy for you. In my perspective, I felt like it was so easy for you to have compassion for him in the midst of all of this and to feel you would talk about his shame and you understood that he was in his shame. So I just feel like, now if you could in a way put yourself back there and kind of go back to where you did have compassion for him, um, I think that could be relatively easy for you, honestly, because you were very compassionate towards him, Yeah, and also understanding his shame response and having this new level of awareness of like, oh, this guy is living in so much shame that he's using multiple different shame responses to to stay alive much, Right, So he's got his attack back and shame and blame to you so he doesn't have to feel what's in And then he's also got his denial and dissociation and he definitely has attacking himself, which does not share openly or publicly right, So he's probably carrying all the shame responses. There's more, and so just to sort of have a greater level of awareness of the suffering and the human condition of suffering and the ways that it plays out is a path to forgiveness because the more we understand others, the more we can recognize ourselves in them, and the more that we can have compassion towards them. Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's that's really good. I'm gonna I'm gonna write about that one like that one. I know it's not an easy answer. I mean, shoot, I have been searching for it for years and obviously it's gotten better, but you know, struggling with anxiety and I hold myself back from doing things that I want to do. Like, for example, I'm up for something. I can't say what it is, but it would really really really push me mentally physically. And the one piece that I don't want to do it is I'm like, well, what if I have an anxiety attacker of my anxiety and I can't do it? So it's like, is there something that like and I know anxiety was just fear of is that it is a fear of the unknown or fear of what's would you want to work? Okay, so I'm I'm trained in I f S, which is which is a model about getting connected to these protector parts of ourselves and helping them relax. Would you want to do like a two minute practice with me to just talk to the anxiety? Is that comfortable or safe for you? Right now? It's not about going into the anxiety, it's just kind of getting to know what it needs. Sure, Okay, we'll be safe, don't worry. Yeah, it's super safe. Actually, so where do you notice the it's almost right now that we have the fear of the anxiety, we don't even have to talk about the anxiety. And seeing the fear of the anxiety not correct. So let's just talk to the fear of the anxiety. Mm hm right, where do you notice that in your body? It's like an elephants sitting on me, elephant sitting on you? Okay, really good descriptive work. You don't thank you? And this fear where is it in the room? Like, is it next to you? Is it in you? Is it? It's all in my chest, in your chest? Here the box, it's a box. It's a rector? Good? Okay? Is there a color red? It was black turned red because I think you're shirt okay, and now just check in with it. Is there anything else that is being revealed about this fear of anxiety? So yes and no? Okay. The only reason I say yes is because like my like first past relationship or whatever, because he was on top of me. And so whenever I feel like my chest tight like that anxiety, it just I go. It triggers me back to that moment of like I can't escape. So I'm like I'm stuck and I'm trapped, which, yeah, like I've just trapped. Okay, Okay, So the part of you that feels trapped, can it? Can it step aside for a moment and just like have a coffee outside, we're gonna okay, let's go have some tea and we'll talk to you later, okay, Because you want to talk to the fear right now, bring your attention back to that fear and just notice anything else that comes up about it. Anything. Is there an age? Is their gender? You think about the fear of anxiety? Nothing else? Okay? Is it just sort of an energy? How would you describe it? I think it's just like, um, it's just kind of there. It's like a little like devil, you know, it's like a devil on the right shoulder because it's like because I've done so much freaking work about therapy, but it's still there's still like a little piece just like always hanging on, like not letting me fully live like without any But I'm like, does everyone have like, don't you have anxieties or no, like things that will hold you back that you'd be scared to a part of you right now, Jenna, that's coming up. That's that's trying to deflect. Can we ask the deflector to go have some tetooth. I'm not gonna get the deflector is gonna have a smoke? If that's a flector, that's a great idea. An American spirit yellow pack. Oh I miss it, beautiful, enjoy it now? Does this part of you the fear of anxiety? How do you, Joanna feel towards this part of you? Oh? I hate it? You hate it? Okay because it just makes me feel like weak, you know, and like yeah, I hate it. I don't I don't like even like bringing it up because it's like Okay, yeah, I don't like fear. Does the fear of the anxiety no that you're here with it? M yeah, m hm. How does it feel towards you? Were pals? Repels you? No? No, we're pals. You guys are pals. Okay, okay, you're like, am I your most complicated case ever? No? Not at all. So you and your anxiety are pals, but you joanna feel towards it? You hate it? Yeah? Okay, Okay. I want to send a little bit of compassion and love to your fear of anxiety, your fear of the anxiety, because it's working really hard for it's working really hard to keep you safe from impermissible anxiety. I just wanted to send a thank you to it for its efforts. Okay. If that fear of anxiety wasn't doing this extreme job of just you know, making you crazy and making you hate it and working so hard, what else would it be doing right now? I mean, if it wasn't there, I would not I mean, I give it, um, I give it energy. Okay, so I'd be giving you back some energy, but it wasn't so extreme. Yeah, yeah, okay, what else would this part of you be doing? If it wasn't having to be in this extreme all of try keeping you an alert. I mean, it could it could be like my support mm hmm hm beautiful. So if it was supporting you, what is that? What does that look like to you? It would basically be like my It would basically be like you got this, Like you're going to be fine, Like nothing's gonna happen, and if it does, we'll work through it. M beautiful, Like you can get on the expressway and out of a panic attack, you will be fine, you know. Okay, beautiful? Okay, because I still can't drive on an expressway, but I'm like, I'm gonna have a panic attack and I'm would be trapped in So if it was supporting you, is there a place in your world that you feel supported? Yeah? My friends with your friends. Okay, could you invite this fear of anxiety to queendown? Yeah? Yeah, sit on the sofa with you guys and like, drink some wine and just chill. Can you just visualize that for just a second as we wrap up this process, just notice what it feels like to bring the fear of anxiety to your crew of your your girl going and your people. How does it feel when it's with you. Guys, I kind of want to love on it. M there we go, Janna, thank you when you want to love on it. What would you say towards it? You're okay, You're fine, like I got you, Like it's all gonna be okay, You're safe. Mm hmmmmmmm, you're safe. Okay. Can you make a commitment to your fear of anxiety that the next time you notice it you can bring it to the sofa and you're in your sweats and your girls and your wine and you can hang out and just visualize what that would look like. Yeah, I'll do that or I'll damn me one of the two. Maybe for the sake of this moment, you make the commitment. Okay, yes, yes, yes, I'll bring it into queendom. And so right now you can feel into that feeling of feeling love towards it. Yeah, now my chest isn't any There we go. There we go. Thanks Gab God, I love you. Hey, we always you know, you're so fun to do work with, Like last time we tapped and now super open and what you did just explain to your listener which has happened so by by noticing and giving voice to and focusing it on the part that part of you, and seeing it as something separate from you, not you, it's not you, it's a part of you, and being and giving voice to it, and asking all those other protectors that we're trying to get in the way to step aside and of a coffee and a cigarette or continue a cigarette. We were able to have a conversation and connect to and create a direct line of connection from your adult, resourced, undamaged self to the fear part. M And the same way you would speak to your children is how you were speaking at the end to this part, like you're good, I got you, I'm going to take care of you. You're safe with me. And so this is a process of becoming your own internal parent and bringing that fear back to safety. The more you really create that established direct line of connection to that fear, you won't have a panic attack, because often panic attacks come on because of the fear of the panic attack. Really just got to work with the fear and just invited to come back to the couch and just take care of it, extend compassion towards it. Gabby, I love you. Um our listeners tell them everything. The book where they can get it. Obviously, I just got mine on Amazon, but go for it. And by the way, I mean, I must have a book on the way to you guys, So just stay stay open to whatever is in the mail. Um um, yeah, you know the books on Amazon. It's it's called Happy Days, The Guided Path from Trauma to Profound Freedom and Inner Peace. It's never been more of a timely topic than today. And I believe that we all deserve to no one, that we're not alone in our suffering, and to to be given the guided path out. And that's my prayer, my intention for this book. I really hope it helps people create a lot of serenity and self soothing and support. And then they can find you at on Instagram. I'm at Dear. I met at Gabby Burns you on Instagram. I have a podcast that I called Dear Gabby where I worked on people like I've had the privilege of doing here with Jetta, And yeah, that's where you can find me. All right, Gab, thank you so much. I appreciate you. I love you, sweetheart. Thank you appreciate your heart. Also, one thing, I'm coming. This is not for the show, but I'm coming to when thinking April. I'll send you that, Okay, yeah, send it to me, text to me. It would be fucking awesome to hang out with you. I would love it. Yeah, something Tina cigarette, Tina cigarette. You know, I'm not not opposed, Okay, so long. That would be if there was like something, if I was like at a party and like everyone was like doing coke in the corner, I'd be like, can I have a cigarette? There? You go? Well, let let me know. Seriously, I'd love to see you, fine, love to hug you. Okay, friends, definitely, I'm gonna make sure your books are over there for you guys. Why I ordered one too. But I love you, Okay, okay, okay, all right, girl. I love her. She's so sweet. She's great. Yeah, she's great. She's just got like a really good heart. You know, like she's been through some stuff and I feel like you can either go like one way or the other. Sure, and like obviously she's taken, you know, she's used her pain for good and help helping others. So there's so much hope in that, you know. I Mean, it's just really good for people to see that there's light at the end of the tunnel. But I also like to know that, like it's not just like, oh yeah, like I don't have any struggles anymore, because that's like where I'm getting Like, I'm like, are you like every day? Well, I'm sure not. But I think people really do have to see or they're not going to put in the work. Like I know, for me, if I didn't believe that there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel, I don't know that I would put in all the work, you know what I mean. It's almost like being on a diet totally right, Yeah, absolutely. I meant if you heard my stomach growling the entire time, so hungry, I'm so hungry. I mean I'm eating, don't worry, it's just time for me to eat. But I'm for you, it's like, right, it's like that same like you have to know that there's like because if not, that's what you're just going to keep. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard, it's definitely. Yeah, you've got to put the work in. For a lot of people, you have to know, you have to have that hope of what's at the end of it. Yes, it's still going to be struggling even if you lose the weight, You're still going to struggle and you're still going to have hards and you're still gonna but you have I feel like people have to hear that part of it or they're not going to put in the work. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I have to hear and I know what you're saying because you want to hear but you were just fixed and everything is just better because I've been doing this for how long and I'm not fixed? You know. I I hear you. But I think for a lot of people, especially new to therapy, they have to hear that hopeful yes, like what is going to end up at the end for me? I mean, I mean same. That's like why I like read books, and that's why I like you know, because it's like I want to know that, like things can work out from bad things. I want to know that, like and which is like why you know, I like sharing. It's like, hey, look at like you can move on from divorce. It's like but in the moment when you have your friends, Catherine mean like you're going to get through this, I'm like no, I'm rob so hard to see it in like moment, Yeah, absolutely, because it's like I'm sure. Like it's almost like, like I said, go back to going back to like starting or you don't want to start it because it's like it's hard to like start, it's hard to start therapy. It's hard to start. Like but there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that is I think they're like driving home, there is hope, there's there or why would you keep going or why would you start? Because if there's not a light or hope at the end, then who would start anything? But you know what, it's almost easier to start than to keep going sometimes in both senses, the diet and the therapy, because it's hard work and yeah and yeah, yeah, It's like I was talking to a girlfriend at dance and you know, they're having like some issues in their marriage, and she was like, it's easy, not easy to start. It started and it's good, but then it's like to continue like doing the things that we need or whatever. It's like then you just kind of fall back or fall off the diet or you fall off you know, the therapy or whatever, and it's like then you're back to like the dark again. Yeah, exactly, we're gonna get through. There's gonna be light at the end of the tunnel, because there is there always is. I've never seen a tunnel where it doesn't, I mean unless you're like on the I mean shoot, even in shaw Shank there you got through the tunnel like he dug the tunnel and then there was there was I'm serious, there was the nice man outdoors and you know. But anyways, all right, squirrel moments. So you guys, wee bye. Actually just got her book in the mail, and so I'm pretty pumped to start reading that because I was hooked. I'm hooked by the intro. It's gonna be good, very good. Um. Okay, so there's exciting things happening. Wine Down is going on the road. Got some Nashville, Atlanta, in Chicago dates. So go to Jane Kramer dot what Calm's It's not like that has been your website for at least ten eleven years, is it? Is it on the website Jane Kramer dot com com backslash tour? Oh there you go, thanks manager. Um. So, yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be it's gonna be a good time taking some some girls out. I have a follow up on something we talked about earlier the Karen's. It turns out Karen's are not the most likely people to exhibit Karen like behavior. Maybe the name is not fair, That's what I said. Karen's research says that the most Karen like behavior goes the women named Louise. I was just gonna say, my daughter's middle name is Anne and Jane, and my middle name Mark. Okay, stop being a Mark. We're going to start Jane. I don't well, the male version of the Karen is the Kent. So wait, hold on, did you say Jane, Louise and Anne? Is that all your name? My middle name is Anne used to Ramsey's middle name is Jane? Is Louise? Sounds like y'all? Are karens? Sounds like it? Two definite press parents. Well good too. It's good to know to all those people out there, looks like you're the real Karen near defense, the real karens Um all right, I have nothing else. Talk to you guys next week. Fight