Baby shaw, I don't have a rundown, so I had nothing. Okay, thank you, well it wasn't on my side. People. Let's go wind down with Janna Kramer and I heart radio podcast over here. Happy one year, Julia, Um, I can't believe it's been a year of doing this show. I know, it actually seems like it went really fast. It seems like went by really fast. But then also I'm like, are we still doing it? Like you guys still want us please be sure sure do. That's where I'm like, my love me open in US magazine You'll see why we sure sure do? Or Janna and Michael get no matter what they say now, well, I'm honestly afraid to sometimes say things now because I'm like, well I don't want this to get picked up. You e and thank you people, and thank you US Magazine for now listening. The last one when they talked about Olivia col I died, I was like, oh my gosh, Michael, now you're making the headline. What I have to say about that? Apparently US and do care? No one cares. No one else cares. I mean, people liked it, but no, I just it's been a year and just thank you, Thank you Mark, thank you Easton for for for dealing with us for a year. It's been our pleasure. And thanks for Mike for for jumping on board with us. I think that's why it definitely doesn't feel like a year, because you know, I came on what September. Yeah, so it's like, you know, we've been doing it since September, but you were doing it for several months before. I've known you for so much longer. So it's like I'm all mixed up in my time. But I love it. This is our one year and I just want to say thank you to everyone that listens to the show, because we could not keep going if we didn't have the downloads. So and the emails they make me cry and laugh and because I get them first and then I send them to you guys, and it's like these people are the coolest and they're so open and willing to share, and it just even if you don't get a response, we read them all and it means so much. I try to respond to everybody. Yeah, our wind down listeners are the best. So do you want to thank you? Guys? What's the big announcement? We have a big announcement. Do you know do I need to make the big announcement? Should Mark do the big announcement? And it's everyone's even okay, very exciting, exciting, Well, wind Down with Jane Kramer is getting a name change. It is it's called vasectomy, so with it's called sex talk with Jane Hike. No, that's it. It's going to be wind Down with Jane Kramer and Mike Casses. Very big debate because I call you Michael and Mike like I just sort of switches off depending on kind of like I don't know what what do you like he should be? Actually I actually go by John my middle name. What no? Um? I think it's because you know, you are affiliated with Janna and she always calls me Michael, right, So that's how like you know me is specifically through Jana initially, and she calls me Michael. No one else really calls me Michael. Um. I respond to whatever, what should we put on the logo? Because because we're changing the name, we're at the print thing now we have a dilemma, what do you want to what do you want? I think Mike Thing just says it's your formal Oh no, I was gonna say, just Mike the Mike Cosson, it's how kind of hard it's hard to say, should have Okay, this is PTSD to the vasectomy, because nothing was more uncomfortable than the fact that you'd had the sect to me, and Janna was like, I'm not sure we should have done it, And I'm like, right, classic, Janna. I was in the room looking at Mark like this is happening right now because he had it. That's my wife, that is my wife everything. She second guess we're every trip, every plane trip that we have, we'll be sitting there waiting to get on the planet. Jane's like, should we have done a different flight? We should we have left like earlier, should we have left later? She can't. It's physically impossible for her not to make her comment about should we have taken this? It went wrong with your flight home from Scotland. I'm not gonna lie. Look, something looked bad when I saw Janna on the floor of the airport. But I was on the floor. I thought you were just sitting on the floor. Wait, oh yeah, I was. We were waiting, and then the entire time I was like, we shouldn't have taken this flight, and I'm looking at other flights. It's like you physically cannot get like you stay on the same flight. She was like, should we just flowing on a straight out of l A because we didn't, because we wanted to Seattle and then went over. We tried to save some money. It was it was significantly cheaper. But then Joanna was like, which it was just don't know, it's a pain. It's hard, but I have a hard time sticking to my travel plan. Or Mike, what do you want to be? Then? I think Mark? I thought Mark great, brought up a great point. Michael just flows better. And actually, when I talked to people on the phone and they asked me my name, I say Michael Coston. Because I've said Mike costing too much. People call me Mark, people call me Matt. It's just because they backed it back. People call you Matt from Mike. Don't ask me. Those people it's their fault. It's like the lady that yesterday in the airpart called me Juna. I go, where in your right brain does this is the lady that takes our ticket before we walk down the tarmac. Janna wanted to stop, turn around and go ask her I'm like, just keep walking. She think that you like it, says Janna, So like, uh is a Juna. I didn't get that one. I'll get I'll get Janeau. I'm with all the other Junah back congratulations. All right, So it's now officially wind down with Janna Kramer and Michael could really stuck if we lost like a lot of listeners. So now if you two just get into a big fight and maybe Janna prize, we're off to a good start. You know. I just feel like we you know, Mike's bent on since September obviously, because you know, Miss jenn is so busy with Ryan and everything else, and you know, with Michael and what we have and what we're doing and wanting to do and helping people, and I'm like, it shouldn't just be my name on there. So I do love my husband, and I want saying Mike put on his Diva hat. I started saying I want my name on there too. I actually did that time. He did not do that. And I don't think I just I just care about him and I want him, you know, to he deserves to have his name up there too. Thank you guys. Yeah, well very grateful to you guys for being so open with no filter, and please continue. We'll try, although I do get really scared. Though we don't have to try, we just have to try not to well. Honestly, the funny thing is when you were talking about Olivia, in my brain I was like, Okay, I know that one of the writers from E listens to the show because he's so sweet, and I was just like, I have to be careful because if I say I don't like her, that's going to be the like the headline. But I don't not like her, though I'm not saying I'm just I have to be careful with that politically said I don't like her. I mean, you basically called their social climber. But that's fine. That was your opinion. So anyways, let's get to what you know. Like Michael says, he wants to talk about the important stuff. That was what you said. You're like, I don't want to just talk about the celebrity. You wanted to and this is you know again, since this is the start of our show together, you really wanted to talk to this guy today, and so Amy, our amazing producer, made it happen. And do you want to kind of give a back start before we get them on the phone. And to Janna's point, it's it's, you know, we want to talk about everything, but we realize what the listeners want to hear and what they want us to talk about. And so the guests that we're gonna have on the show today very uh important for me. Um specifically just because her names are Jason and Shelley Martinquez. Jason is an author. He wrote this book titled Worthy of a Trust. Didn't write it with him. She did, uh like Shelley's thoughts like throughout the book. She like kind of put her thoughts, her true sense, her feelings, and you know, wrote them down within the chapters. Um. And this was probably one of the first books in recent memory that I've read, like cover to cover multiple times. And this book was given to me when I was in rehab for sex addiction and really kind of sheeped my whole mindset around recovery, around forgiveness, around trust, around everything like this. This book impacted me the most out of any book that I read when I was in treatment, out of any workbook, out of any big book, out of anything, this was the book that I always referred back to. So personally, I'm very very excited and I feel very privileged to be able to talk to this guy and his wife and express that to them and ask him some questions. Yeah, I'm excited to just from like the wife's standpoint with all of us too, and because there's been so many people that email us and ask us how we do it, and it's nice to see someone that's you know, we've been doing it for what four years now, well three years in recovery, but you know, sixteen years they've been they've been married. So I'm I'm just super excited to kind of pick their brain because there's I know a lot of people that have questions as well and how to get through things. And some of the things that he talks about this book that will ask them are art, you know, our topics that whether addiction or not, any relationship that deals with any kind of infidelity you can definitely benefit from. For sure. So are they at a phone right now? They are. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk to him. It sounds good. Alright, guys, it's a last week to get your tickets. This week, the podcast Tour wind Down is going on the road. We're gonna be in Alexandria, Virginia May sixteenth. On the seventeenth we're going to be in New York, and on the eighteenth that we're going to be in Boston. So go to Janna Cramer dot com to get your tickets. It's gonna be an awesome show. We're gonna be talking winding down and I'm gonna sing a lot of new songs. Hope to see you guys there. Maybe you've considered a Sleep number of bed but thought you couldn't afford one, but can you really afford another restless night's sleep? Well, there's never been a better time to save unproven quality sleep. Now during the Memorial Day sale, a Queen three sixty smart bed starts at only looks. So many couples disagree on mattress from this, And honestly I laugh because, Uh, Michael and I argued about the firmness of our bed all the time. I like softer, he likes harder. Wait, let's let's just keep it about the bed. But seriously, though, we like different firmness. Okay, So with a Sleep Number three sixty bed, we can choose the firmness that is ideal for both of us. The Sleep Number three sixty smart beds are so smart they actually sense your every move and automatically adjust to you, keeping you sleeping comfortably throughout the night. Sleep Number has been ranked the highest in customer satisfaction with mattresses by JD Power for two thousand eighteen award. Information visit JD Power at dot com. Um and I like to give practical gifts to my family, so I just ordered one for my mom for Mother's Day because my mom likes a soft mattress, but my dad likes some more firm mattress. Now they can both get what they want, and the good news is is their divorce, so that works out perfect. To come in during the Memorial Day sale and say one thousand on a new Sleep Number three sixties Special Edition smart bed for a temperature bouncing comfort at an exceptional value. You only find Sleep Number at any of the five Sleep Number stores nationwide. Find the one nearest to you at sleep number dot com. Slash Janna, it's time for spring cleaning. Quip's got an easy way to start with your brushing habits. Just two minutes twice a day can help pave the way to a healthier mouth and mind, and now the whole family can get refreshed with QUIP. The new brush is the same as our original version. It's just tweak for sized down mouse kids are inspider to brush better and more often with oral care that looks and feels of the products like the adults use in their life. And they're proud to use QUIP so help them develop a grown up routine without childish gimmicks. Um, you know. For Jolly it's great because she sees me brushing my teeth and we kind of make it like a bedtime routine, which is awesome. And there's that built in two minute time or two which is Dennist recommended. And another thing is that you're actually supposed to change the toothbrush heads every three months. But the great news is they're automatically delivered on that dentist recommended schedule every three months for just five dollars. So it's just a friendly reminder to be like, hey, I gotta check that oral health and it's time to change the toothbread. So Equip is one of the first electric toothbrush is accepted by the American Association. They're backed by over dental professions. So quip just starts at T and if you go to get quip dot com slash Janna right now, you can actually get your first refiel pack for free. That's your first refiel pack for free at get quip dot com slash Janna, g E t q U I P dot com slash Janna. Okay, so before we get them on the phone though anything from Scotland, we want to talk about how unbelievably amazing it was. That was the best trip ever. I will say this. I feel like I'd put this on my Instagram, But we we live our lives for our kids, and I sometimes think that we forget to kind of nourish our relationship. And that was such a connecting trip without trying, without forcing, without fortunate, without being like we have to do this and we have to do that. And yeah, like we just we didn't even end up having sex. We didn't. You tried, He tried. He came in the room at like because the time change was like really throwing me off too. I was super tired. But you came in around like ten thirty, No, yeah, around like eleven, and you were trying. I was like, back off happening, but I didn't like, we didn't need to wasn't even about that. We went for the most oh by the way mark, we went for a walk in the woods, in the forest, and Michael fell in a waterfall. It was all for the picture and not falling. Now. He wanted to go down in the middle of the waterfall, like step on this rock for Jenna, take a picture from this bridge, get seriously injured doing this stuff for their and and all of a sudden he slips on moss, which I knew. I was like, Okay, this is wet moss. It's gonna be slippery. And I still slipped and fell, and so he gets like halfway. I'm screaming like Michael, oh no, And I mean I thought for sure he was going all the way down. But it was the most It was the most beautiful walk back to the castle. It was just it was like out of Dress Park, how beautiful and green and just I mean it was Lord of the Rings meets Jurassic Park meets like a fairy tale. It was incredible. It was honestly the best, and I I want to go back there for our ten years because you can rent out the castle it's called the dun Sky Estate and you can rent out the castle and there's activities. It's a castle. It's in the state. You don't think it's a castle. It's in the state. Oh, I think it's a castle. They say it's a castle. I want to show a market picture. It's a castle. I'm not. It looks like and a alistair called it. I mean they never claimed it to be a castle. It's in the states, a family state. I mean it looks like a castle. It's gorgeous. Yeah, you don't think it looks like a castle? Really no, this is what is it called. Look it up Dunska Estate. It looks like a castle and s k e y, what's key key? Are you still in Scotland, wife y struggle city? Okay, I think I think I think you agree with Here's what it says. Dunski Estate is an Edwardian castle well self catering, accommodations, holiday cottages, blah blah blah, interesting dunk State private castle. Yeah, it looks like a castle. It is a castle. That's really awesome. It was literally the most amazing. I will never forget that wedding because I relate to this, just because whenever my wife and I get away, it's instantly like it's twenty years ago and we don't have kids yet. Like that that early party relationship comes right back. Yeah, and we were just like laughing and having good conversations like nothing was forced. Yeah, how long were you there for? Three days? Thursday? Really? I mean we were there Thursday, but that was that was We were delirious the entire time. Michael is like driving two hours from the Glasgow airport and he was like, I'm struggle. Yeah, it was. It was brutal Friday. Really Friday Star Table was like too full, awake and no sex the whole time. Huh No, we just Janna went to bed earlier than really everybody every night, and I just I wasn't. I didn't want to go to bed. I just wanted to. Like one night she went to bed and everyone else was doing like a whiskey tasting. I sat in this it's like their bar room, and I kind of see it. It kind of felt like a like an old timy like country club locker room type of field, just you know, big beautiful chairs and couches and a big, you know, wood burning fireplace with a bar behind you and just I just sat there. I just sat there by myself, so relaxing, just drinking a coffee and having a drink and looking out the over like out the window over the state. It was. It was unbelievable. I did have one panic attack the first night we were there. We hadn't slept in thirty six hours, and I woke up at eleven o'clock and everyone was still up, and so then I started freaking out, like, oh my gosh, the closest hospitals like two hours away, and oh my gosh, what if I pass out? And this and that, and then I was finally like, I looked out the window and I just I got a cold compress, which always helps me with my anxiety. And then I just laid and bad did some deep breathing, and I was like, I'm in a beautiful place. I'm okay. And then I went to bed and I was fine the rest of the trip. Thanks for not waking me up. You're welcome. I appreciate that. Should we get them on the line right now, Jason Shelley, I'm here. Hi. How are you great? How are you? We're good. We are so excited to have you on Wine Down we really appreciate it. Um, Mike has been um chatting with the producer for a while to get you on the show. So we're super excited that you both are on and we just were. We feel very fortunate. Thank you for having it, of course, and again thank you for making the time. And we gave you before we got you guys on and kind of gave the listeners a little backstory of um, you know, the book where they're worthy ever trust and the impact for me with that book, and I just wanted to share that with you guys too, because I admitted myself into rehab for sex addiction back in yeah yeah, yeah seen um summer two thousan sixteen, and uh, y'all's book was with all the literature and all the stuff that I read when I was in treatment, y'all's book was the book that really shifted and was able to change my life, change my mindset, and change just how I thought about things. Um, you know, it was one of it was the first book and I don't even know how long that I read cover to cover multiple times. And a buddy of mine that or a guy that I became close with and in treatment that still talked to you to this day, him and I when we got out of treatment, we always referred back to y'all's book and remember what they said here, remember what they said there? And it was it really was. I just want to thank you guys for writing that, for being willing to open up like that, because it just for me, If it's just one person, y'all's book changed my life for the better, which ultimately changed jan and I's life because I was able to think and act a different way because of it. Wow, thank you, Thank you guys. That's really cool. Um. So, I guess I want to start with Shelly. Shelly, so you, um, you confronted Jason right about infidelity? Yeah, so we did. Was it just something where you just you kind of knew, like you knew in your heart of hearts? Because a lot of people asked me, They're like, how did you know? How did you know it? For me, it was just I just had that gut feeling. There was a lot of things that were, you know, he was acting different on and there was just something where in my gut I just knew something was going on. And I don't know. Was that the kind of the same experience for you or did you did you find things? Or yeah, you know, I actually I really thought Jason only had eyes for me. So in my gut I knew something was off. Um even the day we got married, as I was walking down the aisle, I knew deep down something wasn't right. But I never ever thought it would be betrayal. So um, but a couple of things that happened, and at one point Jason had confessed to an inappropriate relationship at work, and and again a couple of other things happened which led me to confronting Jason and um and so so yeah, it was I really never thought this would be my story. I thought it would be you know, the gal down the street or but not my story. Now I hear you on that. And Jason, did you did you? You know how long was that recovery process for you? I mean, I know with Michael, it's you know, obviously we've had our slips and stuff and it's been difficult, but it wasn't something where you you were like, Okay, I need to I have kids and I have a family and I'm gonna you know, go through with this and and and be straight this way. Um. You know, it was a little different for me in that, Uh, we were early in our marriage, were only a few years into our marriage. We had no kids, Um, we had no mean Shelly Sully made three times as much money as I did. We didn't have a whole lot of assets to our name, Like it would have been really easy to just cut ties and go separate ways, um, And I think it would have been really easy for Shelly to do that. For me, this the beginning was really wonky, and that sometimes I was trying to change and doing the work for me, and sometimes it was just to save our marriage. And you know, my motivation kind of it kind of kind of what would you call that, like shifted back and forth between those Does that make sense? Um? And I don't think that's wrong or bad today. Some days it was for good motivation. Sometimes it's for better motivation. But ultimately it landed at I have to change because I've got to be a different man. And if that results and Shelly seeing something worth staying with me, then then that's kind of like the mega bonus at that point. But I ultimately realized I had to change absolutely, And you know, I was actually rereading um some of the earlier chapters in the book this morning, just to kind of refresh my memory, and just reading the part of of you know, Shelly, you discovering and chasing your feelings after that, it just reading that it just brought up my own experience all over again. And it's amazing, just the insanity and the pain that goes along with all of that. And and I'm sure with you guys, even being as far along as you are in this, you know, you can still respect the pain from a sense of you know, knowing where you guys are now compared to then, you know, I mean, how impactful, how impactful it still is. And there's one thing, one of the many things that I love about your's book is the whole debunking the myths. The eight myths that you debunked kind of early in the part one of the book is something that you know, for our listeners, obviously not everyone out there is a set static that. You know, any relationship that deals with infidelity doesn't mean that there's addiction attached to it. And what I love about those myths is that it's not really specified towards addiction. Obviously, you know you suffer from addiction. I suff from addictions, so we relate, but people that aren't, even in an addictive program can relate to those two and one of them for me that I remember telling us so many therapists into Janna and which is the second one? Just for an example that you talk about, is you know, for you is not not acting out again is all it takes to build trust and that it's almost laughable to me when I say that out loud, because that's how I viewed relationships, That's how I viewed initially building back trust with Joanna. I always told myself it's like, if I didn't act out, if I didn't do the things that I did, what would I ever fight about with Janna? Or what would I ever fight about with any spouse or partner or girlfriend if I didn't if I didn't get caught and do those things. And then with you know, Janna and I trying to to reconcile and everything, I was saying the same thing to myself in the back of my mind. I haven't used this to Huntington has it as an excuse. It's like, Okay, you're complaining about this, but I'm not acting out totally. And you know, to your point, all those myths that I write about in there are those roles, the justifications and rationalizations that I use. What other myths, what other myths that are listeners are there that you write about things like, you know, time heals all wounds, Um, we'll get through this when she decides to forgive. You know, those are just a couple where those those are just the things I was telling myself because I was in such a shameful place and in such a defensive posture early on, you know, I would say snarky things like that that really, at large our culture believes and like that's that's like, you know, those are common things in the context of marital relationships that are experiencing difficulty, and I hung on those and tried to use those as lever to get Shelly to do things differently in treating nicer and that kind of stuff. And in retrospect, what I what I realized now, you know, fifty and a half years later, is I was just trying to make me feel better, and I was really disregarding her pain and her process of grieving. Absolutely. I mean Mike did the same thing. It was honestly for us, I mean he would be there would be zero empathy and defensive because in his brain he was just like, well, I'm not acting out, so but I'm like and at the end of it, I remember we went to a therapist and I said, me, divorcing you now isn't going to be because of the affairs. It's going to be because of how you're treating me now with the new empathy and the defensiveness and just that that you know, the anger that it's you. You're not like feeling my pain. You're not there with me, and it's like you're not You're not sitting there with me and empathizing with me. You're just saying, well, I'm not cheating. So and that was that was I'm like, this, this is why I'm going to divorce you. Michael, Like, don't you see that. It's not because it's not because of the affair. Is because of how you're acting right now, which was which is awe was harder to accept because then it's it feels even more personal because there's not a tangible thing that I'm maybe a tangible event that happened, you know, it's just a it's just a series of actions or reactions over time that's causing her to feel that way, which is almost more personal. And Shelley have a question for you. You know, one of the myths is, you know, he wouldn't do this if he really loved me. Just for you know, listeners and whether male or female that are dealing with that, like, what's your advice to them, Like what was your mindset like to come into that place of realizing, Okay, oh he does still love me. Just because he did these things doesn't mean he didn't he didn't love me. Yeah, I mean that was that was really that was a huge part of my process was because I really thought, in Jana, I don't know how this how this worked out for you. It's and let me just kind of segway for a second, Dana, you are beautiful. I mean you were so gorgeous. And so there's a part of me like whenever you know, we were invited to be on your show, I'm like, oh my gosh, Like if this could happen to you, this could happen to anyone. Because for me, I felt like I wasn't enough for Jason, and I felt like if I had been, I mean I kind of went through the list, you know, like I'm not enough if I were smarter, had bigger boot, smaller boots, bigger but smaller, but whatever, you know. But ultimately where I landed is if I had been sexier, this would not be my story and this is my fault because I'm not sexy enough. Passed forward when Jason and I went to the first therapist when we you know, after I confronted him and we shared, Hey, here's where we're at, here's what's going on, he turned and looked at me and said, Okay, Shelly, why don't you share now? What what did you do to cause Jason to make these choices? And so that was just fuel to the fire of me feeling like this is my fault and if and I know what you asked Mike was more about like, you know, clearly he doesn't love me, or he wouldn't have done this, And so again, this is this was a huge part of my journey recognizing that these choices Jason made, while they did affect me and caused a ton of pain, they actually were not about me. These were about holes in his heart that in coping mechanisms and ways that he was trying to deal with the pain in his heart in an illegitimate way, and It started well before he even met me. It started in his childhood where he started to use sex and sexuality to medicate. But again, it really took me a long time to get to a place of groundedness and oh, yes, this has hurt me, but this is not about my inadequacy. I think that's the hardest thing though for women, because I mean I felt the same thing, you know the first time. I was just like, it's because I didn't have big enough boobs, or because I didn't dress sexy enough, because I didn't wear the sexy laundret to bed, and so it was just I think that's where every woman goes is because we don't we immediately go they were you know, we weren't sexy enough, or we didn't have that sex appeal um, which is unfortunate that we go there. But it's about going on the other side of it, you know, where we're at now, knowing that has nothing to do with how we look or or anything like that, and that that too. Can I say something else about that? You know, I perpetuated that too, because some of the story. So basically, when everything hit the fan for us and show he confronted me. That was really the second time that she had done that. She had done it nine months prior, and I had lied and made excuses and then turned it on her, and I had told her, hey, if you would have more sex and have different sex, and especially if you would initiate sex, then we'll be okay. So she kind of bought all of that lie and then and then over the that nine months period, she you know, she changed her wardrobe, changed her the way she talked, the way she dressed, the way she did things where we went on vacation. I mean, she went through and jumping through all the hoops trying to make herself different to to fix me. And so I think for Shelly, and so you can speak to this, I think when we hit the fan for real and we started into recovery, Showy ultimately moved to a place where she was like, I've already tried to change me, and so that it almost like gave her a handhold to say, I've already tried to change me and it didn't work. Now you've got to change you. And that was really important for us. M H. I think you know that's just you saying that. Jason is a testament to how impactful just listen. You talk the way you talk, it sounds like the hook, you know. And for me, what what was great about like how you how you deliver things and you talk about things, is you have like this this a way to like softly call out the mail, you know, that kind of call call us out, but in almost like an inviting, a respectful way where it's not a shameful way. And so you like you're just saying, you know, because I did the same thing to Janna. I tried to to put it on her, like well, why don't you wear this or why don't you wear that? I'll never forget that. That was the worst thing ever. We were sitting in a restaurant and I was like, why don't why won't you sleep with me? And he's just like, well, why don't you Why don't you come to the bedroom with something on rather than just a big old T shirt. And I just remember sitting in the restaurant bawling, and I left the restaurant because I was just like I thought that that was like sorry, like I thought that was you know, sexy. I'm sorry, yeah, but you know, I'm really sorry that. You know, that's one of those things that I've apologized tenfold to Janna, and I see the pain in it right now, and I feel the pain because the unfortunate thing is, and Jason knew you can relate to this is the stuff that we said or the stuff that I said to Janna, none of that was even true when really the thing that I love the most, And now what's unfortunate is I incourage Like my favorite thing that she wears is a big T shirt to bed. That's literally my genuinely, completely true, like that's my favorite thing she wears. But unfortunately, especially early on, because of the damage that I did in that moment and traumatized her from that, Like it's hard for her. It's hard for her to accept my my my truth now, you know. And so we just put our shows in the situation. I put myself in the situation where now you have to like fight against my old self and what I said in my habits and behaviors and convinced are like, no, this is actually genuine, this is actually true. Yeah. One of the most healing things has been when I am triggered or when something comes up and I remember the pain from the past to be able to vulnerably share that with Jason, Jana, just like you did with the three of us and and all your listeners, and which is so brave of you. And then for Jason to sit with me in that and to I mean, whatever it might be, whether it's to hold me or to just sit next to me, and to experience that pain with me is one of the biggest gifts that he has been able to give me on the other side of all of this. And and so I just appreciate, Like Jana, when you got cheery and I could hear the pain, I was like, Okay, Mike, come on, you know, because I really think that that we are fifteen years in and these things still come up, and it is so important that I am still heard in that and it actually brings us closer together whenever we experienced something like that. So I mean, I know you said you've been fifteen years, So I mean, is that something where it's you know, Jason, are you are you always consistently empathetic? Because I guess that's my fear where I'm afraid, because you know, we're three years into Discovery. I'm afraid. Okay, let's say are in ten years I have a trigger that comes up and he's like, God, we're still dealing with this ten years later. And that's like, that's my fear that that's something that's going to come up, because it's it's not going to I wish it. I wish it. You know, we can forget it about it. But I know that's that's that's so naive thinking. I know we're gonna I know I'll have triggers and you know, as long as I um communicated in a healthy way. But I'm afraid that he might get edgy about the fact that he still has to you know, deal with it. Yeah, Well, so that, you know, one thing is important to note. So we're fifteen and a half years in Showy I on the flow track, all right, We're like, I'm sure for y'all and probably a lot of other people like that, the process is gonna be a whole lot faster than for us. We just we're just do slow track. So, um, you know, I've cycled. There have been times when I'm sure he says, Hey, I'm triggered, and I just kind of put my hand on my forehead and I'm like really still. But but today, by and large and Sully, you can you can score my report card on this. By and large, you know, I've internalized that and embraced that that that's part of our process, and it's it's important for me, for my heart, for my soul to love her well when she's triggered, whether it was justified or not, whether it's rational or not, like for me to enter into her pain with her when she feels that from here on out, it's just me being a good husband, regardless of whether I'm in the doghouse so to speak, or we're paying for past things like, it's just good for me to be a good husband that way by entering into her pain with her. Absolutely, and I completely agree with that, And I think you know, the way I've tried to, you know, interpret that as well, is that's an opportunity, you know, instead of early on it felt you know, which I understand why Janna would still have that fear because of even early in recovery, I would still have the audacity to say, because I was still stuck in the hole on that acting out so you should trust me. So I was still stuck in that mindset where you know, I'm not physically acting out, you know why, you know why we why are we dealing with this? And you know, let's move on. But now I try to and again, like you said, Jason, I think Janna can attest the poor card for majority of the time. I mean, we're able to treat it as an opportunity to show up and not just for me, but also for Joanna to an opportunity for her to try to express it or articulate it in a healthy way, which doesn't always happen, which is understandable. And that's my that's my job to allow her the latitude to however she needs to express it or or you know, let it out, you know, give her the grace to be able to do that. Right, and you think about, um, you know, why does that go through betrayal? Are are grieving? Right? You're on You're on the other side of the trail, and what you're doing is grieving. And if you think about this in any other context, Let's say somebody lost the loved one in a tragic accident, like, would we put a statute of limitations on their grieving? No? No, we wouldn't say, Hey, in eleven years, you can't talk about the loss of your son anymore, or the loss of your mother anymore, Like we would never say that a great point, but yeah, we we want to do that to our wives in this process, like, hey, there's a point where you can't talk about it anymore. But if we see it as you know what, they're still grieving, and grieving is making sense of your story, and she's gonna be making sense of her story for the rest of our lives. And that's a that's a good thing. M Shelley, Why did you stay? M M. It's a great question, Tea. I resisted staying. It took me like eighteen months maybe and Jason might have a different account of it, but at least okay, at least eighteen months before I was able to say okay, I I am saying. And the reason I stayed was Jason made it really really hard for me to step away from the marriage. He literally turned, he changed from the inside out, and I got to this place where I was like, well, dang, I don't want some other you know all of this like w two, he was on the other side of this, and it's like, I mean I knew who he could be and who God created him to be, and and then he and not that it was I mean, we are on this flowtrack, and not that it has been perfect by any means, but he truly he made it difficult for me to step away because I fell in love with the man that he changed into. So that's my faith. I will say to say something I'm sure Jann is thinking, is you know I've I've even since discovery almost four years ago, I've still given Janna plenty of reasons to leave, whether it you know, still omission or any kind of lying or relapse or slips or still more justification and rationalization. Definitely give her, given her, you know, plenty of ammunition to leave, and the fact that she's still been strong enough to see enough of a of a change at times too, you know, still, you know, one to keep trying and staying is you're holding on. But the skinny skin skin I was for a long time, I was. It really wasn't since the last year that I've I've really gotten sober, you know, it was just was it a few weeks ago. I'm about a month ago that it was my one year sobriety. And it's really been the last year that Jana and I have done the most amount of work. And I think that's when you tapped into your empathy. Though. I think that's where it was able to switch, where I was able to, like you talk about a lot of recovery to where it's not just a middle story. You know, It's like you were really like, right, I wasn't living in the middle circle. I wasn't you know, white knucklean things. I was doing the work. And you know, Jason, you talk a lot about shame in The Boy in which again, whether addiction or not, people can attest to. And so I think I was finally able to let alleviate, you know, let go a little bit more my shame and tap into more of that empathy. Um, who was whose decision? Was it? Too? You know, do the book? You guys have the Redemptive Living dot com, which I want to you know, tell the listeners to go to. But was it was it something that were you scared about coming out with all of it or or you just kind of wanted to, you know, help people. I mean, what was what was your kind of thought process with all of that? You want to speak to that you want me to speak to that show, Well we both can. I'll just say for me, early on, Jason was like I want to help other men. I want to help them experience the freedom that I have. And I was like, good luck, honey, have fun. I'll be over here here, great time. I don't want anything. I don't want anything of that. It sounded more like it, I will not be the poster child for being the trayed, all right, that's right. Yeah, So not initially I didn't want any part in it. And I was happy in my career and doing all sorts of other things. But there was just that still small voice that kept um mooing me towards helping women. And so it's a bit about a decade ago that I started helping women by facilitating support groups. And so I don't know, I mean, Jason, I'll let you speak towards your desire to write the book. But for me, it was just I'll say, it was just hard for me to step into this space of helping others and putting our story out there. Yeah, not what I wanted. Yeah, And I had been telling our story, um more and more often, more and more frequently, and you know, working as working as a coaching counselor helping people in their journey. I always lead with my story. Um. So the book really came about as like this, this question just comes up every time when somebody calls our office and says we need help. One of the questions that always comes up is how will she ever trust me again? Or how can I ever trust him again? And so what what I found this is, this is my personal experience, is when I asked that question of people myself, it was always nebulous, like, well, work hard and one day she might then be a miracle, and there were no there were no there's no meat on the bone. Does that make sense? And so I just kind of started looking at what the heck have we been doing? What tangible tactical things have we been doing? What what wrong ways of thinking have I been operating in that haven't helped? And which ones have been right thinking that have helped. And so that was kind of what fond writing the book, like, let's give people tactical stuff to actually work on rebuilding trust, which again me personally, I will forever be grateful for that that changed my life. And you know it's the book again. Yeah, the title of the book is worthy of a trust And if you deal with any kind of infidelity, definitely go get it. And something along with that. It's you know, Shelly. I commend you a lot too for a jumping on board with it and being willing and to adding your you know, your Shelly's thoughts, you know, throughout the book. Because again for me, even when I was reading an in treatment, which this whole world of addiction and all of my shame and all my pain and where it comes from, just I'm just discovering all of this, but being able to hear your thoughts and read your thoughts along with this again help me kind of decipher it and and and put myself allow me to feel a little bit more empathy and put myself into Janis shoes of what she might feeling. So I I again I speak for myself. I personally appreciate you being willing to step into that world and and you know, give your two cents and help Jason with the book, because I don't think it would have been the same without you on. And I can totally relate with how you felt about, you know, not wanting to be the poster child for a betrayal or whatever. Yeah, I I wrote a book, um, while I was starting to write a proposal, and Mike Um basically ripped up the entire thing. We got into a huge fight. I mean, it was it was bad. Yeah, Janna was was writing a book, started to write a book, and you know, wanted to tell like part of it because I wanted to help. I'm like, there's a reason why this happened, and you know, it's already out there in a in a way that he had an affair publicly. So I'm like, let's help people with this. And that was my whole because I'm like, this happened, people know about it, so let's show people how you can rebuild trust, how you can make this work. Where is the silver lining? And he looked at it as just like I don't want anyone to know. I looked at it as shameful, as just pointing the finger as you know. I just felt a blanket of shame. That's all that I felt. I was like, I don't want people to talk about this. I don't want to put you know, gas on the fire. I don't you know, I don't want any of that. I want to just sweep it on the rug and let it go away. And I was like pleading, like please, like I need someone to help relate to me because I feel so alone, and I know I'm not alone, and I need, I want this for other women. And it was this battle. It was this battle until I was able to It was honestly when we started doing the podcast that we started getting emails. Janna started showing me like direct messages she would get on her social media, and I slowly started to kind of get this validation that, wait, we actually can help people, Like maybe what we're doing is a good thing. Maybe Jenna knew what she was talking about, and I can just get out of my shame and address it. And so it wasn't it was just a few episodes ago that you know, it was speculated for a long time that I was in sex addiction. I went to rehab and all of that, but it never came from Janna, Janna or I. So just about a month ago we decided on the show to address it and control the narrative and own it. And it was because on the show were so open about our life. We're so open about what we've been through in our relationship. That was like the one last skeleton we had in the closet that we hadn't talked about. But obviously it's a major part of our story. So it felt, you know, inauthentic to not talk about and it was just another way to reach that much more people, that many more people that may be suffering from the addictive aspect. So we totally relate to that, and I totally relate to that. Um yeah, but seriously, thank you guys, Just thank you for being a light for us too, because that's this is you know, we want to help people and you know, you guys are showing the way. Thank you. I was gonna say, it's definitely a privilege, like to hear you guys say that, like, it's a huge privilege to know, and it's also, as you guys are experiencing, it's also a huge motivator, you know, to hear like that our story has impacted y'all then just makes me want to keep doing the work to get better and grow and make our marriage stronger. And it's like everybody wins when we get honest and authentic about that. There's a question. I'm sitting here, you know, as we're talking, I'm I'm looking at this quote I have. I just put it on my desk earlier this morning, and it's it says we suffer to get well, we surrender to win, we die to live, we give it away to keep it. It's from Richard Roar. And just as you guys are talking, I'm like, I feel like this Coote is you know, it's it's kind of speaking to what we're talking about, UM, and just the importance of giving away UM sometimes when we when we share our pain, when we share our insecurities, UM gosh, just the blessing for others. And and that's how we're able to Jason what you were just saying, like it makes you want to do a better job, It makes you want to be a better husband, a better fa other, et cetera. So I think it's cool how that giving back. UM, Mike, I have a question for you though, because you've mentioned a couple of times so I got sorry I interview you, okay. UM, So I'm curious because you said, and Jianna you mentioned just a bit ago the empathy piece really being the turning point for you guys in your healing process, and with the women I work with, that seems to be such the missing element and a lot of women like the affair is actually not what's going to UM cause the divorce it's the line. It's this exfensiveness, like you guys were saying. So Mike, I'm just curious what helped you go from that defensive posture to this posture of it sounds like humility and empathy. What what made it quick for you? Yeah, because that took a while. I mean it's still not perfect. I still have my moments because I've always been a defensive, kind of short tempered human being, and so it's still an active thing for me to do, and a lot of my natural reactions are maybe defensive. You know, like just this morning, just just this morning, just because I was Janna had been up and was ready to start the day. I was just waking up. We just traveled from a different country last night, and so Janna was asked me about something. I just got defensive about it and it was kind of you know. And then a few minutes later, once we were away from each other, I texted because I was just like what am I doing? Like why was I? I didn't have to be that way, you know. So it's still something I struggle with. But for me, I mean, we Janna and I got to a place where she truly gave me, like an ultimatum where time had passed since the actual infidelity, and so basically she confirmed the myth that this is a myth the whole I'm not acting out. Why don't you trust me? She confirmed that She's like, I'm gonna leave you if you do not stop being defensive you, if you don't show me empathy, you know, so on and so forth. But I'll still stuck in that mindset of but I'm not acting out, I'm not you know whatever it is. So it just she we got into a bad enough place where she told that to me, and I realized, like, this doesn't have really anything to do with me acting out. This has to do with everything else too. But why does it happen? Like I'm just trying to think, like for the guy, like how why is it so hard for for the men to be because I mean the same thing with you, Shellie, Like I get d m s all the time, Like the husbands like wants me to get over it, and you know they don't feel the pain. I don't know why you guys can't sit there, sit there with Is it because of the shame? I think yes, And Jason can speak on this too. I think for me, it's definitely shame. And I think it's a biological thing too, where we just naturally aren't as nurturing or empathetic as women. So for us, the pride and the ego, that kind of Neanderthal mindset, we just allow that to get in the way because of what society teaches us, because maybe how we're raised. I like the car accident one that you said that we had a therapist. Are our therapist here in l A make you watch something? And I think that helps sometimes too for you for empathy, what was that? It was like, basically, I got into a car accident and I need you to help me. You need to carry me basically because you just you just took off my two legs exactly. I think the other aspect of it is um you know, kind of conceptually our our emotional maturity as men, our emotional maturity kind of stops where our addictions start. So for a lot of us, you know, we were eleven twelve years old whenever we were starting into this sexual stuff, and it's at the point where that was really ramping up that our emotional maturity got stunted. So like for a lot of us, guys and This is not an excuse, it's it's an explanation, unexcused. It's like we we didn't develop, you know, mature and develop into what it means to be an empathic, tender person because of the stuff that's been going on in our lives for usually a couple of decades. So part of our recovery is not only stop acting out and doing all that stuff, but part of our our recovery is that emotional maturity and development and empathy is a part of that. Yeah, that's a great point. And because just again for me personally, it's every time I had feelings or whatever, I I didn't know how to handle them, so I acted out sexually, right, So instead of confronting them and dealing with that that feeling O pain and you know, just went elsewhere, just like anyone with any common an addiction. Um, well, I won't say one of the thing about something you've mentioned their Jenna. Um they so much. I hear this a lot of people in the culture saying, well, this is really about a weak woman. Have you anybody said that to you? You're a weak woman for staying oh weak? Yeah, I mean there's some been some mean people that have said things. But yeah, I mean I've I've definitely heard that before. But in my I think I'm super strong for saying I think the easiest thing could have been to leave. You totally agree. Yeah, I think it takes a really strong woman to stay. It takes more strength and more courage to work through the pain. I mean it. Any time you see a good man in this recovery process, chances are there's a really good woman next to him. Absolutely, I really want all of us to get together. So can we make this happen? Because I love you guys. Oh my gosh, you guys. Would you guys live in the Denver area? Yeah, we're in Denver, all right. Well, anytime you guys are in l A or Nashville and for an Denver you just let's just stay in contact and because we think you guys are great and we just cannot thank you enough for this conversation and I just thank you for everything. We can talk to you guys all day, so we appreciate your time. And where else can our listeners, like you know, tell them real quick about Redemptive Living dot com and so on dot com that's our website for our ministry. Where um we do work helping men, marriages and wives that are going through betrayal, and that's all we do. That's all we specialize in. UM. Shelley runs groups support groups for wives going through it. You can check out her website r L for Women dot com. UH and we've got resources out there. There's books, video curriculum, courses as well as obviously one on one help UM. So if there's a way that we can we can help people through the process, that's what we're here to do. I love it. Jason Shelley, thank you guys so much for coming online down. Thank you guys so much. You guys, thank you. Have a great one too. Alright, bye bye. Before before we go on, before we want to take a break for a second, there's one thing I want to read to and this is this stuck with me. I remember I read you know we're gonna take a break on one second. I just want to read this for food for thought for the men or women out there that are the perpetrators, the one in my shoes, and this is the end of their forward and worthy of a trust. So it took a better part of five years to feel like we were stabilized. It took seven years for Shelley to say she actually respected me. Took eight years for her to say that if we had to go through it all over again, she would still choose me. Took nine years for her to say that my sexual addiction was one of the best things that ever happened to her. And today, as I write this is a little a little over ten years since everything hit the fan, and they're in an amazing place. So that's just you know that I always would reread that, and as much as I acted against that in all of this kind of recovery process is it's a good reminder that this isn't a quick fix. It takes time, takes investment. But take a break. Okay, Well, now that I am not pregnant anymore, I have got the dreaded period. 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And for every purchase, Lola donates feminine care products to homeless shelters across the US, so they're a great company for forty press on off all subscriptions. Visit my Lola dot com and enter Janna when you subscribe. That's my Lola dot com And when you subscribe, just enter Janna. Can you honestly say that the furniture that you own brings you any joy? Or are you missing a couch or a chair that really says this is my space? Joy Bird empowers you to create the furniture and space that brings you joy. With joy Bird, you get one of a kind furniture crafted to your unique taste. Joy Bird offers a range of kid and pet friendly upholsterry options so that your creations can stand the test of time. That's exactly the direction that Janna and I went for our new house in Nashville. Between two dogs and two young kids, we knew we needed something that could withstand that. There's free personal design consultants to help you nail down your perfect design. It's all quality handcraft of furniture and also they have a three s five day home trial. Skip the furniture story and bring the showroom home to you. You can sit on and sleep on and break it in. If you don't love your joy Bird furniture, return it for a full refund. It's all hassle free in own delivery. They'll even remove all the packing materials free returns within two weeks of delivery. So see how Joybird can help you design your dream space. Find your joy today at joy bird dot com slash Joanna. Create the furniture that brings you joy today at joy bird dot com slash Janna. Go to joybird dot com slash Joanna receive an exclusive offer for off your first order by using me to promote code jana Um How is that for you. I mean it's it's hard talking about Yeah, it's like it's tough, but they're so sweet and I just I just I love that there's other people out there too that are showing people that there is there's a will, there's a way. I just I have just the empathy. Pieces very interesting that she you know, because so many women, it's just there's so many times I just want to shake you and be like just sit here with me and like cry and say you're sorry. And you know it's interesting piece. But um, yeah, that was a they were really sweet. I'd love to I love to get to know them more. Yeah, that was that was really really cool, I think for both of us. And it's got to be like full circle for you, it's super full circle. And Connor surreal that I was able to talk to again, you know. I mean, I'm not a huge reader. I'm trying to become more of a reader, you know, and so for this to be the first book, and I again, like I've said humorous times now, I don't you know the last time I read a book cover to cover and I read it twice when I was in treatment. You know, it did change my life it's kinda feel pretty good, then just let you just talk to the author. All right, Um, we've got some good ones. I am in a similar situation to you and Mike. Six months before my wedding, I discovered that by now husband has a gambling problem. He said he was just young, and Domin wasn't doing it anymore. Well, it's almost two years into our marriage and seven months pregnant. I stumbled across a credit card statement, so the amount of money he had charged to it more than we could afford. He blambed on gambling, but this time it felt different. The names he sent Amazon gift cards to seemed odd and we're women's names. Over the next two months, I found about four more credit cards that were accumulating death that was beyond what we could fix. He decided to go to a few gamblers anonymous meetings and began seeing a therapist. But I knew he was hiding something, so I went into his email and discovered he was having girls send him individualized videos. He said he felt like he never got to experience that life because we've been together since we were fifteen, and he felt that this was a better option than cheating because it wasn't physical. I can't believe he spent thousands of dollars on these women. It's been a little over a month now and we're both doing counseling. I don't know how to move forward with our relationship, Mike. I want to better understand the mind of an addict. Why did he get so invested in this lifestyle when I was here for him all along? She is anonymous m h. I mean addictive behavior for sure. There's his excuses are just rationalization, justification that they are excuses the whole I didn't experience this or that. I mean, you guys have been getting that long. He made a choice, so there's nothing to blame. You're not to blame for this. It was him just choosing. He made the choices, and you know, whatever is going on with him, I mean again kind of jam and I've been talking about, like for men or for myself or whoever, to be able to tap into empathy or to be able to go and talk to somebody about internal feelings easier said than done for for a male. I'm sure there's females that have that problem too, But he just found an outlet for whatever he's dealing with. Not healthy. No, and you didn't do anything wrong, like Mike said, nothing wrong, Yeah, don't be like, don't and don't put blame on what he said, Well, we've been together since we're fifteen, Like, don't, don't put blame, don't blame yourself for that. That's not you did nothing wrong. Right in the line, why did you do this when I was here for him all along? I feel like she's starting to put some of them on herself there, right, And I'm not even gonna sit here and say, well, how did you know that you were there for him like you should? Did you tell him? I'm not even gonna say that, because that's not it if you've even together fifteen years, Like, I don't know how they have been together. I mean, I'm sorry you've been together since they're fifteen. I mean, they know they're there for each other. So I love that you guys are in counseling. And I don't like the fact that I will say, I don't like the fact that he says it's not cheating, because that is still cheating. Even though you didn't physically, he wasn't physical with those women, that's still marriage. So I don't let him manipulate that, yeah, because that's not go to counseling. Yeah, right, you should see a c set certified sex addiction therapists. And he needs to not only couples councling like you guys are doing, but he needs to go to individual counting and figure out and dig to see where these feelings are coming from. It's great thing he's going to gamblers anonymous, But I feel like there's more. Yeah, there's a personal you know. It's interesting because I've known plenty of guys that are in the Twelfth Step program I'm in that come from a A or n A or whatever, and they realize come to realize that the sex aspect is the root of maybe what drove them to something, love to law. If the root is always love, that you know, the most most roots are always about love in the lack thereof in your family origin. So so yeah, so it's you know, great, they went to gamblers, honest, but that's just him believing his own lies that it was gambling. Yeah, he needs its deeper than he needs to admit that he has a real problem here. There's it's deeper than that until he admits that, I think we've got a rough road right ahead, which he needs. That's why he needs to go to sea. And that's, by the way, I feel like that's an excuse a lot of cheaters use. Um, we've been together a whole live and never got to experience other women that sort of thing. Yeah, but it's no different than any other indel I'll say this, and I remember now you rereading that part what I want to say. When we got this email last week. He didn't have time that whole I didn't get to experience. Tell you relay this message to your husband. That experience is not worth any of it. That experience sucks. It's empty, it's miserable, it's lonely, and it's depressing. Now it's hard for people to hear that from somebody else be like, yeah, well because you experienced you say that nice, so they think they want to experience it. Effan sucks. Well, it's not worth it. You've got a baby on the way here, you've got a family here that you're going to destroy, and it's not worth that. That life isn't gonna make you happier than your wife, than your kids or anything like that. Again, that's where it's there's something so much deeper than just going to a gambling right, it falls deeper than that. All right, this is from Brittany. My fiance and I were actually at your live podcast here in l A. I wanted to ask a question during the show, but my fiance gets embarrassed, so I refrained. After we left, he opened up and said, we have a lot of issues. We just got engaged and have started to plan the wedding. We are stuck in a very difficult spot. My fiance is religious and I am not. I want to get married outdoors, but it's important to him and his family to get married in the Catholic Church. Neither one of us is budging. I suggested we go see a therapist, not only for our other issues, but for this particular subject. He says, we can't afford to see a therapist. What do we do? Um? First of all, thanks for coming to our life podcast, Brett Brett Um. The not affording to be able to go to therapy FIST, I think is something where you need to budget because there are therapists that do take insurance, so I think, and also, okay, maybe we just budget out the month where you can afford it, because it's important and being saying that I understand it can be expensive. I do. I do have empathy for that, But at the same time, it's your marriage, and you need to talk to somebody and sit down because it's you know, it's important, it's your marriage. Just because you know saying that we couldn't afford it, your wedding is gonna be expensive. So maybe cut down on one thing so you can go see a therapist instead of having a cake do cupcakes, I don't know, and then to cut down on costs so that way you can see a therapist, because you won't have the successful marriage if you don't. If you have if you have all these issues and the only reason you're not going is because you don't have the money, that's not that's not a reason in my personal opinion. Mean, again, we're empathetic to the fact that it is expensive. We totally understand that. And but again, like Jana said, breakdown your expenses for that, for how they are monthly, be like, all right, we can not eat out this many times because we want to use some money to see a therapist. Whatever it is. Um, it's tough that issue. I feel like we kind of ran into this a little bit because your your family is more religious, right. But I didn't care about getting married in church, right, but I know your family cared about it. I mean, well, I have some keen insight into this, actually because my biggest isssue with my wife, our biggest issue as we were dating was that she's religious and I am not. And so the compromise we came up with him, By the way, there's going to have to be give on both sides of this for Brittany and her fiance. It's not a matter of either of you budging. You're both gonna have to come together. So we kind of came together with It was actually very similar because I wanted an outdoor wedding and she wanted a church wedding. So we had her pastor from our church come to Wisconsin and do an outdoor wedding. So it was the religious the ceremony she wanted in the setting that I wanted, and that was the compromise that we came up with. And I know there were people on her side that would have preferred us being a church, but this is what this is how we came together on this. But don't they the Catholic priest technically can't marry outdoor. Oh is that right? Yeah, so it's it's I might be saying this wrong, but I'm pretty sure when we're looking into this is the Catholic priests technically can't marry outside. They can, but it's not really under the Catholic laws and rules. Got it. Well, that is that's a different situation than which is interesting. And that's to that point though, the fact that it's a Catholic church. He's very religious Catholicism. You know that they have their rules. I grew up Roman Catholic, so I get it. Um, so that that is tough. I don't know. I mean, if you and Budge, like Mark said, because she wants to get married outdoors, but it's important for him and his family at the same time though, I know you want to get married outside, but if it's really important to him, maybe do yourn outdoor reception. Yeah, like an outdoor reception, just kind of meet in the middle. That's interesting because that is Unfortunately, it is tough because and just look at it this way, a church, depending on the venue, can still be very beautiful, gorgeous, gorgeous. Yeah, maybe maybe it would rain the day that you were going to be outside, right, you know, so maybe it just says get married in the Catholic church, not necessarily their church. So find a beautiful Catholic cathedral near you or something like that. Find something that's gorgeous that will do weddings and do it there to be compromised. Yeah, I'm moving forward in all things. Well, what's the thing I'm like there? Maybe this is something a little bit bigger than inside outside. It seems like when you say other issues wouldn't issue and quotations there that that seems to not be about the church. Let's just say that you're gonna be raising kids. You don't want to be fighting about that every Sunday morning. You don't want to battle. Let me tell you save about the money for therapy, because when you do get married, you got to go to therapy, all right, Taylor. And this one's uh last one. My boyfriend and I have been together for two and a half years. We lived together and he bought a car six months ago that we share. Last week I got rear ended. It was not my fault, the other person that insurance. However, when I told my boyfriend, his first question was were you on the phone, and his second question was is the car okay? He didn't even ask me if I was okay. He was extremely mad at me and hung up on me. It was a pretty traumatic experience that shook me up. And it's just a car. It's a generic sedan, it's nothing fancy. When I told my boyfriend how mad at he I was, his response was, I've worked my ass off for that car, my blood, sweat and tears to earn that car. I feel like we're not going to see i'd I on this. Am I in the wrong? I mean, you're not in the wrong for asking that. He should have asked if you were okay. I mean, you got to a car accident. I can understand a man's passion for his car. I mean like if I leave a gun a gum wrapper in Mike's car, like he loses his mind. If I leave water bottles. I mean like he's men men in their cars. It's like their prize possession, and we should be their prize possessions. But you know, you just that's a tough one because again, I know how much you love your car. But at the same time, I feel like you would still ask if I was okay, if I if I hurt your truck. Yeah, clearly Mike doesn't believe this. Taylor, No, No, I wouldn't. The first thing I would ask are you okay? And then also have that's my car? Yes, it would, it would be it would be difficult to have an appropriate length paused in between his two questions. But I'm just under I'm just being honest. I'm just you know, I would. I would genuinely care because it's and that's the thing he should realize. The cars just a car. You can replace that. I understand, work hard for it, worked your ass off to pay for it, get that, but it's replaceable. Your girlfriend is not. Well, maybe in his mind it is she you are dealer. No, that he should have I mean that he should have said if you're okay? That's not very nice, and you know what, you should go to him and from a very empathetic place and be like, hey, I am really sorry about your car, but I want you to hurt my feelings that you didn't even ask if I was okay, So just come to him and talk to him from a good place. YEA in validate. I understand that you work really hard for his car. I'm so sorry. I honestly, it's not like she meant to freaking nothing wrong. It's not like she meant to freaking do it. I'm concerned honestly with these two. I see this as a big red flag. Now, I'm not a car guy. I drive a priest. It gets me where I need to go, right, But in this situation, you were in an accident, and he made it all about himself. And I'm wondering if you think about your relationship ship in the ground of scheme, if he does this a lot, if things happen in your life and he just makes it all about him. You're going out with your friends, but what am I going to do when you're out with it makes it all about him? I'm concerned. So if you see that, because I see that's kind of a narcissistic trade. So I say, careful here, tread lightly. It's two and a half years in. Just keep your eyes open, and I will say she said she was rear ended. Yeah, so right, so that I can understand if she ran into the back of somebody, yeah I would. That's when I'll definitely be like, are you okay, okay, you're fine? Were you on your phone? Like, what were you doing because I'll pissed me off. Right. She's rerended right, she was so Yeah, Taylor, you have every right to beat pissed off at him for being piste off at you. In case you guys didn't know, Duncan Donuts now has breakfast sandwiches. 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Okay, yeah, because I know, like you know, some of the stuff talking to Jason and Shelley, you know, brings up stuff. But I felt some Well, no, it's hard. I don't honestly, I think I'm I'm so tired. I could like ball my eyes at right now because I think there's a lot of emotions, but I think the majority that is I'm just tired. So when I'm tired, maybe I could eat more triggered easily because I can tell you've held back some emotion. Because yeah, it's because I think I'm just like overtired, and I don't want to like cry fest right now and wind down, sohel because everything's good, We're good. It's just you know, I think when I'm tired, maybe more things come up for me. But I am thanks. I think more things come up for you. And I'm here for you. If you want to talk later, yeah, I'll probably cry later. Okay, We're gonna have a good cry later. You want to join us,