Embracing Your Shadow: How Shadow Work Transforms Life and Relationships with Thais Gibson, PhD (The Velvet)

Published Oct 30, 2024, 12:46 PM

In this episode, Kelly sits down with Thais Gibson, PhD, a renowned author and attachment style expert, to explore the depths of shadow work. Thais explains what the shadow self is, where it originates, and why confronting it can be a powerful tool for personal growth. They discuss how the shadow can often manifest as feeling like it’s always someone else’s fault, constant disappointment in relationships, or ongoing dissatisfaction in work and life. Thais shares how understanding and addressing your shadow can shift these patterns, improve self-esteem, and strengthen relationships. Learn practical steps to start working with your shadow and uncover the unexpected positives it can bring to your life.

Check out The Thais Gibson Podcast HERE!

HOST: Kelly Henderson // @velvetsedge // velvetsedge.com

GUEST: Thais Gibson // @thepersonaldevelopmentschool // thepersonaldevelopmentschool.com

Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.

Kyies Gibson is here as hatchet style expert, best selling author and PhD Hi tayis Hi.

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here with you.

Well, I'm so excited to talk to you because one of the main trends I've seen on TikTok and social media is that people are talking a lot about shadow work. And I know this is kind of one of your specialties and this is not a new thing in psychology, but it seems like people are just getting this new awareness about shadow work. Can you talk a little bit about maybe where this came from. I know Carl Jung was like the founder of this thinking, so can we take it back and explain to the listeners what shadow work is and where did this come from?

Yes, definitely, it's such a powerful topic. So you're exactly right. Carl Jung was one of the founders of shadow work, are the main founder of shadow work, and he actually describes the shadow as the part of ourselves that we try to deny or hide, and so what essentially happens is we all get conditioned when we're growing up. And what conditioning does is it shapes our personality. So, for example, if you grow up in a household with a lot of kids, and if you're loud and boisterous, you may get more attention, and so those conditions would be set so that you actually get positive reinforcement because you get more attention from being loud, and so going into your adult life, you may be really outgoing or loud because that's been positively reinforced and it's creating and shaping our personality. All of our personalities are shaped through conditioning, but all of us get different conditions.

That shape us.

So, for example, you could take somebody else in a totally different dynamic, maybe in a different type of culture where it's like, you know what, young women are validated if they're quiet, if they are meek, if they sort of blend into the background, and being loud could be something that's not culturally appropriate for somebody totally different. And so what happens is we all get conditioning, either positive or negative associations to traits that we express. The things that we think or get conditioned to believe are bad or negative. We don't integrate properly. And what this does is it often triggers us when other people express these traits because we've a had negative associations to them, and b they're actually personally not integrated in healthy ways within the relationship to self, but they usually exist within hidden forms. So give an example, because it's kind of complicated if there, once we go through some exercises, I find it just gets really simplified. So essentially what happens is, let's say somebody grows up in a household where they are taught that you have to absolutely be selfless in order to be worthy of love. So somebody may grow up and they are extremely selfless, but to the point where they don't have a healthy amount of selfishness. They don't know how to have their boundaries, they don't know how to properly take themselves into consideration. They've essentially built in negative associations to the trade of selfishness, so they press it down, they repress it, they try not to act that way. And then when somebody comes to them in their lives that is a little more selfish and maybe a little more advantageous and really takes themselves into consideration, we will often be extremely triggered by that person because it's almost like if you can imagine like a beach ball that you're trying to push under the water, and the moment you take it off, it's sort of bounces back up, like it's pushing back up to the surface. It's almost like the trade that we're trying so hard to press down and avoid, it's actually seeking to come into the hole.

And so you know, we'll see these things and they trigger us, but we're taking them personally because there's something personal for us there to learn. That's the mirroring thing, right, Like I hear people talk about this all the time, that we draw in different people and different relationships because there's certain parts of us that are ready to be revealed or healed or whatever. Like if we're getting triggered, that to me, I've tried to change the narrative in my head when I'm getting triggered, I say, wait, there's something here that is like wanting to be revealed, it's ready to be healed. And then it gets me really curious about what's actually going on for me because I think often like what you said, where we look at the other person and we get angry or we think they're doing something wrong and it's like, no, it's actually here to benefit you in some way.

Absolutely, that's so beautifully said, and it reminds you of this quote by Rumy and he says, if I'm irritated by every rub, how will I ever be polished?

And what he's saying is all the things that trigger.

Us are polishing us, are giving us this opportunity to grow, to go and where to see what's there. And so that's exactly the case. And in Carl Jung's words, he talks about how until we make the unconscious conscious, it will direct our lives and we will call it fate. And so what's happening is when we have these triggering events, it's a huge call for us to be able to say, Okay, well what is triggering me in this person? What trait is it? And what is my actual relationship to that trait? And it's always going to fall all I find there's this exercise that we really built out that that covers all the basis of the shadow. I always get people to a be able to look at what triggers them and then b go inwards and ask themselves, where is this not integrated? Healthily within myself or where is this showing up in hidden forms? And there's usually three kind of stops.

On the train. Okay, so we'll do an example.

Let's say we have somebody who is anxious in relationships, so they're an anxious attachment style.

They sometimes presented like needy or clingy. They get really afraid of abandonment.

Well, the biggest thing that often triggers them is when people are dismissive to them, because they feel like, oh my gosh, I'm not being cared about and things like that. So when we look at the shadow of the anxious person in relationships and they get triggered by the trait of dismissiveness. Well, when we look inwards at the hidden forms that that shows up within and we look at those three stops on the train. Number one, where are you dismissive towards yourself?

Is a first the one that is huge to me.

Yes, and usually it shows up for people who were less familiar of like oh, I'm dismissing my own feelings and needs or I'm dismissing my boundaries because anxiously leaning individuals are often so you know, in people pleasing mode and looking out for other people, it's at the expense of the relationship to self. So where am I dismissing myself? Number two? Where am I reacting back to this person with that trait? So in this case, where am I reactively dismissive? And I know for me, when I had my attachment style to work on, I had this coworker once and I was doing shadow work on this topic and he was very dismissive and it was just he and I that worked together for forty hours a week every week.

And I remember I'd go into this place that I worked at.

And I'd be like, good morning, how are you And he'd be like, I'm fine, and I'd get triggered. I'd be like, oh, he's so dismissive, and I'd get triggered. And I remember doing shadow work and I thought this was so funny. I remember doing shadow work and being like, Okay, where am I dismissing myself? And I was like, oh, my gosh, I definitely do that. I have to work on that. Then I remember looking at where am I reactively dismissive? And I realized that all these mornings I would come in and be like, how was your weekend, how are you and try to share and have a conversation. He would be dismissive, and then I would be like, fine, I'm not going to talk to you either.

And it's like you're punishing him.

Then yeah, but it's the react of dismissiveness, right, I'm like, I'll just dismiss him back. And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I wasn't seeing that. And then number three is where are you dismissing or whatever the trait is that triggers you somebody in your life, and then realizing and it really gives us this three sixty degree view of where the shadow exists in hidden forms. And for me, it was really crazy because I was at the time working on the relationship with my father. We had had a hard time for a couple of years, and we were starting to work on it and like improve the relationship, and I realized like, oh, sometimes he'll reach out to me and like try to really make an effort, and I'll just be like quick to dismiss or dismiss him. And I realized, oh, my goodness, here I am making my own father feel the way that this person's making me.

And it was just like so eye.

Opening, and so which out of work does through that exercise, it helps us either integrate the trait or find the three places that we may not be expressing the trait in the same form as that person, but it's often existing in hidden forms within our psyche because we haven't properly integrated it.

And so then what we do is we work through a healthier.

Set of strategies from there, and we can talk about all that stuff, but I just tryd to make sure that first part is clear.

Does that all make sense?

It totally makes sense. And I love that you're using the word integrating because I think initially when I hear the word shadow, I go ooh, that has to be bad, right like that? And that was the reason I wanted to do this podcast the week of Halloween. It's like spooky season. It just seems scary a little bit, you know, And I think that a lot of times we can not want to look at the darker, deeper parts of ourselves because we're fearful of what we're gonna find. And what I'm hearing in this a lot of it is like it's a part of our personality that as a young child maybe got exacerbated or stifled because of the programming in the household. And it's not necessarily good or bad, but awareness and integration is the way to healing. So are there these parts of us? Like how much of your shadow self is a part of your real personality?

It's such a great question.

So I think one of the first things to notice that human beings are designed to be whole, and anything we stifle or repress usually comes out in these head and forms because it's not really the way it's meant to be. And so you know, what's interesting is that I don't believe that there's any such thing as real positive or negative traits. I think we only get conditioned to believe those things. For example, if somebody is aggressive, right, maybe some of us think, oh my gosh, that has to be an exclusively negative trait. Well, not if you're a professional athlete, right, Not if you're a mother who's protecting her child when there's something you know, dangerous happening. So you know, it's where and how we use the traits that matters. But when we make traits negative in ourselves and we try to repress them, unfortunately, it often causes us to at a deep level think that parts of ourselves.

Are bad when when they're headen, and it.

Affects our self esteem in various ways because these parts of ourselves that are actually designed to be a part of the whole and used at various times in healthy forms. Instead we're like making bad or wrong. And so there's this really repressive element. And so I wouldn't say that, like, how much of the shadow per se is a part of the personality. I would say that, like, there's definitely for every person. Probably you know a good portion of unexpressed traits in healthy forms. But I think the main thing with shadow work is rather than thinking like how much should we integrate, it's what triggers us.

How often is it coming up?

And that's going to be the leading indicator for like then that's probably how much the shadow still exists in you and headden forms. And what we're trying to do is not say let's get rid of the shadow. We're trying to say, how can we make peace with the traits? Stop judging it, See that it can be used in various forms, Learn to use this trade and healthy forms, and be mindful about how to not use it in unhealthy form. So going back to that example of dismissiveness, we might go, Okay, I probably don't want to dismiss my father, and so I worked on that at that period in time. But I realized that something a way that I could use dismissiveness in a healthier form was sometimes I would say yes to everything, all the tasks on my plate, and I had to actually learn to categorize and dismiss things that were lower level tasks to stay more focused in my life and have better boundaries and be able to like separate out the things that I shouldn't be focusing on all the time. And so you can see that when we have the ability to see where that trade shows up in healthy forms, we can leverage it, and we're showing up in unhealthy forms, we can be like, hey, how do we actually work through this and stop executing on these behaviors or traits?

Yeah, I hate the well this is a saying that's really helped me through my life, but it gets I get frustrated with it every time when someone says you spot it, you got it, and I'm I was like, what, how can like that nasty characteristic I'm seeing in someone else be something that's in me. But if something does make me mad, more than likely there is something going on in me that I'm doing the same behavior, whether it's subtle or very obvious. But I think your example is the perfect one because I don't know if any of the listeners will relate to this. But as I've been doing work through like codependency type stuff throughout my adulthood, one of the things that I would find myself doing in relationships is like you know that thing where you've over committed yourself, like you just said, and then you get mad at the other person when things don't go exactly how it is and you're frustrated and or they don't appreciate it the way they should. You're killing yourself to make all this happen? How could they not notice all these things? And it's like what their reaction is is typically how I'm treating myself. Like if they're being dismissive or they're not that appreciative, I'm like, why am I trying to earn all this left from this person? Versus go, wait, you already have a stacked plate, like respecting and loving myself enough to say no or set boundaries said or actually have a feasible schedule and not over commit myself. So they're just mirroring back to me what I need to do with myself exactly. And I think it brings up this really important discussion where people will be like, oh, so, does that mean you just let somebody get away with their dismissive behaviors.

No, we set boundaries.

We have the conversation, and that's us not dismissing ourselves in regards to the relationship with that person. And so we tell somebody of their behavior of ACTSS, we still show up for it. And we even if somebody is unhealthy around us, like a friend or a family member, we can take a step back in that relationship if we need to. But first of all, we have to realize we're taking it so personally because it is personal to us.

So I wanted to add one.

Other thing that you made me think of, okay, which is I started doing this exercise with people that I was working with for a very long time, and I call it your relationship shadow and it's particular to like, your romantic relationships. And I want it to be such a useful exercise because what it does is you look at the pattern of like your last couple of axes and the pattern of like what triggered you the most about them. And I often get people to do this so that like listeners can do this right now. If you look at your past exits, there's usually one or two emerging patterns where it's like the ones that triggered you the most, the people you used to date that really got under your skin, there's usually like one or two things that they often did. And I don't know if you feel comfortable if I ask you if you were open.

To yeah, I'm thinking okay. So with my current boyfriend, it does feel a little different than my last. But dismissiveness is a big one for me for sure. Like I'm an overfunctioner in relationships typically, and so I feel like some of my bigger triggers would come from not being feeling seen for all that I was doing and feeling neglected.

I guess, okay, so that's really powerful. So unseen and neglected are sort of yes, okay, beautiful and dismissiveness, but we'd.

Cover that one, yeah yeah, yeah. So then and what you do is you look.

At if there was that theme or pattern. It's so valuable to look at like what your exes. That's where it's like, hey, where are some examples of ways that you neglect yourself?

And I'm sure, I mean the list is lengthening on that one. Yeah, I mean that is, and that is the healing work. I think that's probably why my relationship now is different, because I did a ton of work around that exact issue, realizing, wait, I'm getting mad at him for all of the things that I'm actually doing for my like I'm doing to myself. I'm not standing up for myself. I'm not setting boundaries, I'm not taking care of myself. I'm overfunctioning to the point of like full blown meltdown. That's on me at the end of the day one percent.

And you know what the saddest part is, because I've totally been there before doing this work myself too, is that when you don't tell people what you need or what your boundaries are or what you're feeling, you don't even give yourself the opportunity to be considered by them, and then it's like you often feel like you're alone, like you know, this person doesn't really see me, or they're not really loving me the way that I need. They must not care about me, but one of the most beautiful things. And you're probably going through this now because you've said that that's with your current partners. When you actually start being vulnerable and letting people in and like leaning on people and telling them what you need or sharing your true yeses and nos with people, all of a sudden, you feel love so much differently and so much more deeply because they actually know what triggers you or bothers you, or what you need to feel like you're supported. And so then it makes it really easy for the people that love us to show up for us differently, and so that's like, yeah, it's this double layer of like healing that takes place.

As a result, it's an entirely different type of relationship in my experience. I mean, like I've never had such high boundaries and such. I don't know if it's like respect for myself maybe would be the right way to say that, but like I really value my energy and like what I'm giving and what I have to give. And so because I've like carried myself that way, that is how my partner treats me too. And it's very interesting because when I was just dating, I mean I will say I would quickly end, like like I would go on a date or two dates with someone and I was like done. If I knew, if I could tell there wasn't like they could say one thing that's that leaned in the way of like disrespecting me or not valuing my time or anything like that. And it was a no for me that was just like a very clear boundary. And at first it felt scary because I was like saying no more than I ever had and ruling out people more than I had. But all it is is like taking the people out that aren't in alignment. And then all of a sudden it was like just so easy when my current partner came in.

Okay.

So I love that story because that's a perfect example. This is something that I think most people are. It kind of stings to hear for people if they're in it, but it's so helpful, and it's that there's a couple things that drive this. So you articulated this so beautifully. So your conscious mind is responsible for roughly three to five percent of all of your beliefs and thoughts and decisions, and your subconscious is ninety five to ninety seven.

I mean that's wild. Yeah, different number three to five of your conscious mind. Like that's what we're putting around with every day, and our subconscious is how much ninety ninety.

Five to ninety seven percent, and that's all of like our pattern solve our habits. And what's so crazy is that your subconscious mind, it's number one priority is survival, and so it sees what's familiar as safe and that's more likely to keep us surviving. So what's wild is that if you grew up in a household where your feelings and needs were dismissed, that causes you to feel like, okay, well I'm just going to dismiss and avoid my own feelings and needs. Then that becomes your shadow because then you get really triggered by people who will do that to you. As much as it triggers you, your subconscious still chooses it because it's still familiar and that's safe. And so what's wild is these things that trigger us the most. All that just happened to be the thing that we often keep choosing.

Our conscious mind is.

Like, oh, look for the emotionally available person, but our subconscious is like, this is familiar and this is safe, and that's where we have the butterflies and the fireworks and all those things that create a traction. But then if people do what you did, which is start doing the work on themselves show up, then all of a sudden, you start vetting differently in relationships. Then all of a sud you're like, no, I'm actually going to care for my boundaries, care for my needs, be more intentional, be a little bit clearer, and like a little quicker to write people off that may not be a good fit for me, and do it in a healthy way, but to uphold my standards.

And when you do that, you're.

Actually changing your subconscious comfort zone because you're rewiring the patterns that you'll show up with, which causes you to actually end up being more attracted to and investing in more security.

Well yeah, that just blew my mind because you just describe my experience. I mean, there would be situations that in the past, had I dated those same guys, that I would have never like wanted to let that go. And it was so easy and quick for me because I just knew all of a sudden, like I don't even know if that's an awareness or if it's an acceptance or what that is. But when you have that, when you're like, no, I know what my energy brings, I like, just it was just a boundary, is what I thought it was. But I literally started drawing in totally differentferent types of guys and like just the level of person was better. Even does that make sense?

One hundred percent?

And so like how your subconscious gets reworked so that we stop having all those same patterns is it's repetition and emotion that rewires it. So when we repeatedly show up differently, So like repetition and emotion, over time you start having better boundaries in your life. You're clearly on a huge journey of doing the work you're showing up to, like honor your needs. You're working through codependency. So what you're actually doing is as long as you keep doing that repeatedly, you're rewiring your subconscious mind. And then that's where you're like, oh, my energy is different. Well, your behaviors are different, the things you're choosing are different. Everything's different going together, and that's going to draw in more quality people. And I should say this for the listeners when I say, oh, it was so easy, Like the first time I did it, I think I cried after. I was like, oh, I think we're just so on different journeys and I solved, you know, like I was so upset I could.

Only do it in text. I was like very stressed out about it, and then I would do it again and it got easier, and I would do it again and got easier. Like right before I met my boyfriend, I mean, I was like flinging out boundaries like they're nothing. You know. It's just like it had gotten so easy for me to just be like, yeah, this, like we're simply on different journeys, no hard feelings. I just knew what I wanted and I stuck with it for myself, like I didn't, you know, go outside the lines, which I tend to do a lot. So yeah, I think that makes so much sense. That's so much.

Amazing, and that's such a beautiful example. That's that for our listeners, like, you know, just people like they can.

Do that too. I was going to ask you, why is addressing your shadows so important? But I think we're kind of giving those examples right now totally.

The first thing is that it gives you three sixties degree view of like all of your own patterns maybe hidden. Secondly, it allows you the ability to like integrate traits and healthy ways so that you don't have your self esteem affected by repressing all these parts of yourself and feeling like parts of you are bad. You get triggered way less often, Like it really clears your mind when you're not personalizing everything about all these other people's behaviors. And the fourth thing is by actually shifting your shadow traits and dynamics over time, you choose differently. You choose more secure people, You choose people who mirror back to the healthiest version of yourself, because that's how you're showing up inwardly.

Well, I think we're talking about a lot of the positives of doing the shadow work, but you just mentioned worse and I want to talk about, like what is the detriment to not doing this kind of work, because to me, I've lived so many years just taking knocks to my self esteem. And although I think from the outside we can look a certain way, if you are operating from a place of unworthiness, Like it doesn't matter what you get in your life, what success is, what looks good on the outside, what relationships look pretty, or whatever it is if you're not really in a place of you know, being integrated. I do think that you can live in this like unworthy energy. So can you talk little bit about like what is the problem with not addressing any of this shadow stuff?

Yeah, amazing question. So when you don't address all these things. One of the most interesting things too, going back to that like subconscious comfort zone, is we really are moving from this place of unworthiness because we think that all of these traits that are actually secretly in there within ourselves because they're usually showing up these hidden forms, are bad and wrong and evil, and we have all these judgments against these things, but they are parts of our subconscious minds. So at a subconscious level, in a deeper way, we've made all of these parts of ourselves bad and wrong because we're not seeing them from a neutral, healthy standpoint. And so the more that we feel that way about ourselves, the more we're going to believe that we are unworthy. And something that's so interesting there's a big study done about a decade ago on people's relationship to their own self worth and how it affected their net worth, and they found that when people had these huge limiting beliefs like I am unworthy or I am undeserving. They also had sabotaging patterns in their reallyationship with money. And it makes sense, right because your conscious mind can say I want to make more money, but your subconscious mind is like, no, I'm not deserving, I'm not worthy, and then your subconscious mind just wants that familiarity because it's safety, so they'll.

Actually sabotage patterns around money.

Now, there wasn't a study downe and how that correlated with relationships, but you can only imagine how that would correlate with relationships, because if we don't feel worthy of love, then we sabotage love. And I can look back on my own self as somebody who's done a lot of the work. I was a fearful, avoidant attachment style fifteen years ago and started my journey doing a lot of deep attachment and healing work on myself first, and that was part of what got me so into this stuff. And you know, it's so interesting because I remember there was this one relationship that I was in in university and it was like this very like stable, healthy, very loving person showed up really well in the relationship, and I remember just like doing everything I could to sabotage, and looking back now, I'm like, oh, that's so in interesting because for sure I didn't feel worthy of that quality of love and connection, and so that translates into my behavior almost felt like I'm not deserving of this, this is this person's going to find me out that like I'm not worthy of this, and that you know, I'm not ready for this, and and there was this constant fear in the background. And that's not unique to my experience. That's something I've seen replicated and her discussions working with so many people over the years.

Of how they felt that same way.

And so we're not just limiting ourselves and achieving our potential, whether it's in our career or around our finances, but absolutely when it comes to love and connection and relationships.

If we feel this way about.

Ourselves, if people are listening and they're like, Okay, maybe I'm doing this or I'm constantly triggered, Like what is your first step that you would give people to be aware of your shadow?

I would say there's two main ways to work through triggers. One is woundry programming, which maybe we can come back to it's a really powerful tool, but with your shadow specifically these are like my favorite too, so with your shadow. So the very first step is when something triggers you to do exactly what you do, which is to say, what is this showing me about myself? Okay, to adopt like a mindset of curiosity rather than what the mind naturally does when we see our shadow, which is go it goes, oh, this person's this, the person's that I can't how dare they? And we go into the story of them or us, and we go down the rabbit hole and it just that takes us so far away from anything constructive. So very first step we absolutely have to ask ourselves what is this trying.

To show me here? Like what is going on here? And adopt a state of curiosity.

Second, as we ask ourselves, what is the trait that I'm judging in this person? Because when we're triggered and our shadows come up, we're going they're rude, they don't listen, they're dismissive, they're you know, whatever it might be. And that's where when we're willing to be radically honest about like if we could really put it on paper and say everything that we're judging them as, that's where you're going to actually start to see Okay, these are going to be the parts of my shadow.

And then step three I.

Usually ask people is this something I just need to integrate Because for some people it's as simple as it's selfish. Oh my gosh, I have no level of healthy selfishness in my life, like I no wonder and so that can be an obvious one. But if it's not that, then it means your shadows appearing in hidden forms. And that's where we go through the three stops on the train. So if it is somebody is neglecting me and I'm trigger, Okay, they're neglectible, that's the trait that I'm judging them as. Okay, So do I have to integrate neglect into my life? Probably not, so I can write that off. Okay, So what are the three stops on the train where do I neglect my own feelings and needs? And boundaries Number two? Where am I reactively neglectful to somebody? Oh, you're not going to look out for me. I'm not going to take care of your needs either. That's fine, right, where we can actually become the trait that we're judging, because it's from this place of reactivity. And then the third step is is there somebody I'm neglecting in my life and I'm not realizing it?

And it gives us that three to sixty to graeve you. And then once we've.

Been able to really get that three sixty degree view, there's sort of like a part two, which is, Okay, what is one thing I can commit to right now to stop doing this in the relationship to myself? And what we're really looking for is something that opposes that direct trait. So if it's neglectful, I'm going to actually show up consistently in myself. That's going to be pretty much the opposite of neglecting myself. And the more specific I can get, like I'm going to take better care of my health habits, I'm going to take better care of rest and getting proper sleep. I'm going to take better care of like taking time out sometimes, you know, whatever it is that we need to stop neglecting, the moment we do it's opposite, and the moment we're able to actually stick to this for about twenty one days. Research shows that it takes twenty one days to build neural pathways that are strong enough that they are strong enough to stay, and these are going to become our new normals, our new habits, just like you when you first started setting boundaries, and it was really hard at.

First, and then it got out fier.

Yeah, And so when we stick to something for twenty one days, when we stop doing it to ourselves, we'll also see that it doesn't show up too much in hidden forms with others. So as I'm listening to you, I have an old narrative going through my head that's like, oh, it's always about me doing more work. Like it's like, you know, when I'm seeing when I'm triggered by someone else, it's mine to go work on or you know. And then I guess that's like a little bit of a victim mentality. But I think that can feel like a heavy weight sometimes, especially if you're a person who's willing to maybe look at themselves. I know, for me, I've gotten a little bit abused with that in some relationships because some people don't want to look and they like to point the finger, and so if you're a person that you will go look at yourself, they take advantage of that. So as I'm listening to this, that's kind of coming up for me. So that's obviously a shadow piece of me that maybe needs to be addressed. But like, what would you say to that where it's like if you're noticing something in someone else and you have to switch the narrative back to you, how do we not then just like go into a massive shame spiral or a like defeated kind of energy of just like like, oh, why is it me that always has to have like the lessons? And you know what I'm saying, this is.

A fantastic question. So one of the things that I get people to go into after is what do I need in this situation to feel right?

Okay?

And I actually want to link that back to like where you're neglecting yourself, because where you're probably neglecting yourself.

Is voicing your needs consistently.

To other people.

So if you were voicing your needs consistently to other people, people wouldn't be able to neglect you, or if they did, it would be so loud and clear that like, this isn't the type of person I want to be investing, right, And so can I ask you, like from one to ten, how much do you think that you consistently see your needs through like the moment you have a need, you know how to ask for help, you know how to rely on people and open up and go to them, and if somebody forgets, you're okay to be like, hey, we said we're going to do this, and it's your turn to do the dishes or your turn to be more present with me or whatever it is. It's the opposite of neglect. Like how how would you score yourself there?

I mean, I think I've gotten much much much better, and definitely in my romantic relationships, I feel like I am. I mean, you could ask my boyfriend. He'd be like, oh, she sells her needs like he probably gets it harder than anyone because that's been the place of probably in the past where I neglected it the most and so now I'm like super hardcore with it. But it's interesting because as you were saying that, I was like, I've set my life up in a way that you can't really have needs. In my job, I do hair and makeup and styling with celebrities, and so like the celebrities needs are everybody's needs, and so I'm in a kind of codependent dynamic from the get you know, like it takes a little bit more effort in situations like that to be able to step in for your own needs. And like I have found ways, I would say, like beforehand and after to do care for myself and kind of during we were laughing about the crystals and our brawls and stuff, but stuff like that, like I literally carry my you know, I'm really protective of my energy when I go to work and stuff. But yeah, do you think that that is a place where it's like if I'm sick or whatever, it is like you still have to go to work. We don't have It's not like a normal job where you get to call in sick. You know what I'm saying, like.

Hundred person, And this is where I would urge you, like if like so, just I think it's good to give people the live example, I would urge you to look for are there other ways that you could still get those needs met? So could you hire help or an assistant or if you're ever having a tough time, like, are there other ways? Because that is a hard dynamic that's really creaky. Yeah, but there's always going to be some way that leads to off set a portion of it to make you feel like you're really supporting yourself and is there anything there that would show up?

Oh, I'm sure and I do think. I mean, the perfect example is today, like I have myself my schedule set up back to back to back to back to back, and then I got in a small fender bender earlier and it.

Just like, oh my gosh, the room meet.

Yeah, but it's the perfect example, right, because I knew scheduling my day the back to back to back and showing up I need to show up for a client later today. I knew it was dangerous. Like when I when it happened, I was like ugh, and my gut was saying, this is too much, this is too much. And then my agent was like, this is the best day for them, so I agreed. But then the reck happened, and I think, actually the wreck happened for me to go you knew, See, you knew, And I'm trying not to punish myself but just take it as another learning experience of like overscheduling is a big part of like one of the ways I can take better care of mo neys.

That's an amazing example. And you can see like the shadow piece, right, it's like I'm neglecting spare time I'm neglecting rest, I'm neglecting tolle under the gun, and like pressure, I'm neglecting really the time for myself. And so you can see how that's going to be something that A is so triggering the moment it happens externally, but B the whole way out.

Is like repeatedly and greater new behavior.

So for twenty one days, I'm going to make a commitment to stick to like scheduling a little more space in my time, so.

I margin for error.

I'm gonna you know, and that is like you'll see the moment you do that more the black to will trickery on the outlet.

I am learning so much about myself and you guys are just along for my therapy journey right now long. But it ties into worth again, doesn't it. Like overscheduling is because I'm too afraid that if I say I'm busy, they'll use someone else and never call me again. So it's like it ties back into like having confidence in myself and knowing the right people are gonna be with me, and like the right clients I'm not gonna lose, like what's meant for you is not gonna miss you all of that energy. But I get so programmed as a freelancer for so many years of like no, you have to say yes, you have to say yes. It's like that urgency and that is it's also tied to a worth thing, I.

Think absolutely, And you know it's tied to a work thing when we're making sacrifices rather than compromises. Okay, so a compromise would be something like, hey, this client's.

Going through our our time.

They really need you to come fifteen minutes earlier, and you know what, you look at your schedule and you're like, hey, I can do that today.

That actually works.

And it comes from this place of like maybe it's like a little bit of a shift for me, but it's not huge. But the sacrifice is like I didn't consider myself. It was a compulsive yes, I just went right for it came. I made that decision from fear instead of truth, Like I just made it from like, oh, fear of them going with somebody else or fear of saying no, rather than like, hey, you know what, I've looked at this and.

Like I can do that.

And so there's this part where so much of our worth as well is like are we considering ourselves when we're making decisions. Are we able to like attune to our feelings and needs and consider that equally to other people? And if we can do it equally, we're usually going to find healthy compromises in middle grounds. But if we're just like, only they matter and I don't even consider myself, it's in this sacrificial nature. And the more we sacrifice, the more we're also conditioning our own subconscious comfort zone to be like, you're not worthy. Because imagine if you're dating somebody and every time they have a need, or somebody in your life has need, they say to you, who cares about what you need?

Just do what they say? Who cares about considering yourself?

Your feelings don't matter? Just come on, hurry up, just say yes. That would be terrible.

They would make you feel so unworthy.

But if we're doing that to ourselves all the time behaviorally, we're actually creating more of the subconscious context to feel more unworthy.

It would be terrible. But I think that that is so common the example you just gave, especially nowadays, I see so much work and I know you do so much work around attachment style, So like that anxious avoidant dynamic. A lot of the people who resonate with the anxious are just constantly in that sacrifice place, thinking like, if I just do this, then I get to keep the relationship. I know I operated that way for a super long time.

One percent.

And have you ever noticed, when you really look, it's the opposite. Have you ever noticed the people who get chased are always the more avoidant people.

Oh? Always, Yes, It's like all.

The anxiousy boy are thinking like I have to go in this direction.

But it really it's because we are giving subconscious cutes. Almost ninety four percent of communication is non verbal, and people are generally more attracted to And this is just research backs it up. It's not me saying this is people are generally more attracted to people have a strong sense of self and who know what they want, aren't afraid to show up for it, to vocalize on behalf of it. And it's actually healthy to get there. It's important for people to be able to get there. But what happens is with a lot of anxious attachment styles. For example, they have these core wounds from childhood, these core fears that if I advocate for myself or take up too much space. I'll be abandoned, I'll be alone, I'll be excluded, I'll be disliked, I'll be rejected. And these are just ideas. How a core wound really works is we go through a painful experience and our subconscious mind stores it and then it projects it back out into everything. So if you imagine that, like you're in a forest and you see a bear and you run away from the bear and you escape and you're safe, thank god. But then the next day you have to go back into the woods where that bear was.

What do you do?

Your mind's like the bear could be coming, becoming and looking everywhere.

So when we have unresolved experiences in childhood about being abandoned or disliked or rejected, what do we do.

We're like, oh my gosh, they're.

Going to bang.

It's like the bear, and our subconscious is designed to do that to quote unquote keep us safe.

But that's not helping us.

So what we can actually do is we can rewire those ideas about ourselves as well. And I don't know if you wanted to go more into some other shadow part, but if you'd like, I can also share a tool for like rewiring these painful ideas. Yes, youth core will literally reak havoc on our relationships.

Yeah, I want to know the tool. What's the tool?

The tool? So it's a subconscious reprogramming tool.

It's de mined because one of the first things we have to realize is these wounds that we have are not conscious. Nobody's waking up being like I'm going to tell myself I'm going to be abandoned all day and see how I.

Feel like they're not trying who It comes out sideways, right, It's like you're going through your boyfriend's Instagram, or it's like something weird, like well, do you start doing these weird behaviors looking for every text, overreading the text, responses like analyzing every word, like those are things I used to do exactly, those are exactly the patterns, and like you're not choosing them. They're like these autopilot things, right, nice, and so that's how you know they're subconscious. And so whenever we have these wounds, I.

Don't believe in affirmations because affirmations are just your conscious mind speaking to your conscious mind. Because your conscious mind speaks language, but your subconscious mind speaks through emotions and images. Okay, So if I say to you, for example, okay, whatever you do, do.

Not think of a chocolate chip cookie.

Oh that's the first thing I think of.

Because your conscious mind here is do not.

But your subconscious is like image of the chocolate chip cookie, and maybe like a warm, fuzzy.

Feeling or something.

Yes, for sure.

So when we have these wounds and we're like, oh my gosh, I'm sick of fearing abandonment or sick of like being so sensitive to rejection or being disliked, and you want to rewire it, there's just a three steps system. So one find the wound in its opposite. So if it's I'm not good enough, I'm good enough. If I'm abandoned, I'm worthy of connection, I'm unlovable, I'm lovable.

Really easy.

Step two is we need ten memories of times we actually felt good enough or lovable or whatever the wound is. The reason we pick memories is because every memory is a container of emotions and images, which is the language of the subconscious mind. If I were to say, like, oh, tell me your favorite childhood memory, and it was you playing at the playground with your friends, you would see the images of the slide. And we've all seen people when they tell stories or old memories they smile or they laugh or because memories are containers for images and emotions. So we get ten times that we felt good enough or lovable or connected instead of abandoned like the new idea. And step three we record it down, like into our phone. For example, we say, record ourselves saying it out loud, like I felt good enough yesterday when I showed up as a good friend, or I felt good enough two weeks ago when I set a hard boundary with my partner when it was really difficult for me too. And so we record those things saying them out loud, and we listen back for twenty one days. And when we listen, okay, all we have to do is visualize them and feel about them. And what that's doing is it's creating new programs at the subconscious level where we can actually rewire, because neuroplasticity shows when we fire and wire new neural pathways with repetition and emotion. That's what hardwires them into the brain. So if you're like, hey, I don't want to feel abandoned any longer or alone, that's all you do is three steps and it actually changes these ideas so that you don't have.

To feel like that any longer.

Okay, this actually leads to my next question, because I wanted to bring up shame. And we're giving these tips obviously, but if you're listening and you're like, the second tip you just gave that you said, list ten things in your childhood that you felt happy or what. I can't remember exactly how you ordered it, but if you couldn't think of ten, I could see that being a thing that would maybe be triggering to like, well, my childhood was terrible and I don't have ten experiences or whatever. And so some of this work is really important to do with a licensed therapist or a professional that can help you kind of get to the rewiring place. I would imagine, And if someone is sitting here listening and they're thinking, Okay, this is me and I want to do this work, how do we not attach shame to when we're uncovering our shadow parts, whether that's working with a professional or just in general, how do you not go into this shame spiral of oh my god, none of these things that have been triggering me, or these relationships that have gone back, are about anybody else but me, And these are all the things like I'm defective kind of energy, Like what would you say to.

That great question?

So one of the first things is, you know, if somebody's yeah, it's great to do that in like a program with somebody or with a licensed therapist or something like that.

It doesn't have to be things from childhood. It can be just like.

Little ten memories of things you felt got of. It can be like I got out of bed on my first alarm. They can be super tiny if we can't find anything, and you can always start more general and then get more specific over time, like it's possible that I'm improving, and then when you start to feel like that's acceptable, Okay, I am becoming good enough, and then when you so so anyways, there's like detail to that. But when it comes to shame. Something that's so interesting about shame is, you know, if we have shame, Shame is a very interpersonal emotion, and when you really look at shame, it does nothing productive. So I often when I was working with clients or in our programs, I often say to people, I give them this exercise I sea and it almost reminds me of you, Like when you first said that, when you get triggered by things with your shadow, you're like, what is it showing me?

What is it telling me? I stands for inquiry, Okay. So it's a conscious.

Process at first, like we have to like practice doing this, but when we see ourselves in shame, one of the first things to do is just get curious, yeah, and ask ourselves, Okay, what is the root reason that this took place? And I'll tell you a story and maybe with this exercise so you can see it. So I had this client once and he was a real turn and he had a lovely heart. He was a really good person, meant really well. Was he could also always really caring about people in his life. But he had a huge boundary issue, and he had a high stress, high intense position, Like he just was so busy and I had all this pressure on him. And so he came into my office one day when I was in private practice and he said, Tie, I've been in this shame spiral. I like can't get out of it. I did the worst thing. I'm so ashamed of myself, Like I can't believe it. And I said, Okay, tell me, like what happened? And he said, I go into this bank and he's like, I go in once a week to deposit checks. And you know, I was waiting in line, and I always get this one teller and she always messes up when I'm under the gun. And I was waiting in line, and I was so stressed. My boss was giving me a hard time, and I was late to a listing appointment and I had to deposit these checks by this deadline. And I was like waiting in the line and I'm like, please, God, don't give me this person.

And he's like, sure enough, I got her, and she made.

A whole bunch of mistakes and I was just stuck there and he was like and I got so frustrated and I said to her, you should pick a different job because you're terrible at this one. And he freaked out. He panicked, he you know, stormed out, and then he was in this like four day shame cycle before years the same thing. Yeah, and he was like, I'm a terrible person. And I was like, did you go back in and apologize? And he was like no, I'm never setting foot back in the bank again.

Now Here's what's.

So interesting about shame what he did, which really models it out as he went into the story of Mimi me, I'm a terrible person. I'm that, I'm this, I'm that the moment that happened, so I was like, okay, let's do ica together. So inquiry was like, hey, let's look at the root cause that got you here to the point where you said or did the thing that you were feeling badly about. And what we discovered with him is that he has really bad boundaries and.

Because he boundary li almost like you, which is.

So yah yah story earlier, he hitting very way back to back yep.

Then he's under the guy all the time, and then he's like a tick. He was in that case like a ticking time bomb, right because he had all this pressure externally and then it makes it so much harder. And so I is inquiry, Let's look at root cause behind why I did what I did that I'm ashamed of or not feeling good about.

C is for compassion.

Let's have some compassion because you can see how, hey, you know you he had bad boundaries because as a child, boundaries were shamed and punished, and so if he had boundaries, he got in trouble for having them, and so no wonder, here's this person doing his best in the world with no boundaries, feel like everybody can do and say, you know, whatever they want to with his time. And so can we have a little compassion for like where this painful habit came from? And can we see like how that started at one point and have a little bit of you know, compassion for ourselves there? And then A is accountability. How can I solve for what I did but also solve for the root cause, which didn't just mean him going back in and actually apologizing to the bank teller, which he did and he made amends. He felt way better about but he realized, Wow, if I don't work on this boundary issue in practice implementing boundaries, I'm going to keep going through these painful cycles where I feel ashamed. And so shame is just an emotion that's trying to give us feedback. But usually when we're in shame, if you pay close attention, we're actually just in this like painful story about ourselves.

Intead, Oh, I'm sorry to the person.

We usually go into like me me, me, me me, We're like I'm this, I'm that, and so being able to observe. Okay, let's do ica, Let's like get clear, let's inquire about root cause. Let's have a little compassion about where that root cause came from. And it's painful to live in a boundaryless way. And then let's go see what we can do to make amends and be accountable and that helps us move out of that viral of shame that can just last for so long and also be completely unproductive.

I love that I'm going to use that one. I think on my good days, I'm doing that, you know, naturally, like that's the way that I would speak to myself. But I do think it's easy to kind of slip back into old patterns, and so like having an actual tangible tool is so so so helpful. You've been full of those today, which is great because you also have a podcast, the Tay East Gibson Podcast, and you guys can find all kinds of tips like this. Also, you do a lot about attachment style, which I just think is so so so helpful to people because it's so interesting. The more work I've done on that within myself, the more I'm like, wait, every relationship that I know around my life is like that, like it's so prevalent these days. Can you tell us a little bit about what the listeners would find on the podcast.

Yeah, definitely. So we talk all about attachment styles and healing. We really talk about like kind of going back to we brush on earlier, was like the subconscious mind is responsible for that ninety five to ninety seven percent. So every time we work through like a wound or a fear, a boundary issue or anything like that, I really make sure it's engaging the subconscious mind in the process so that we can really pattern it in because I think there's times where people say, oh, your attachment style and here's your traits. Sometimes we were like, Okay, this is how I am instead of like what you're doing, which is amazing, but you see it like not nearly enough, which is people are like, oh, I just am this way. So we really talk about how to rewire what's not working and really simplified tangible ways.

Yeah, where it came from, and then how to rewire it.

I love that exactly.

Well, then let's also talk about the Personal Development school because you mentioned before we started the podcast, this is what you do the majority of the time now, So can you tell the listeners a little bit about that.

Yeah, So the Personal Developments called mostly a ninety day boot cam to become securely attached. That's basically like everything I love all these We have all these supportive resources in there for other areas of life, like your limiting beliefs in your career and how to rewire them and things like that, but it really goes through healing your attachment style, and we have like a specific program that people can move through and it helps them rewire their.

Core wounds, learn their needs, learn.

To communicate better, have healthier boundaries than their life, which is such a big part of becoming securely attached, and making sure that they're in a position where they can regulate their nervous system if they're too always in fight or flight or too upregulated all the time and always under pressure, because all of those are key pillars to becoming securely attached. So they're all online, self paced programs. Then we have daily peer support groups so people can come in and out whenever they want, and daily webinars so there's two events a day. People can come in get personalized support from counselors, therapists, coaches, and there are all these guided programs for people to be able to jump in there and get results by engaging the subconscious mind.

You just made such a good point because I know a lot of times when I'm talking about attachments, how we're talking about, you know, a romantic relationship. But as I've expressed even in this podcast, like, it goes across the whole board of your life. And so if you feel like you resonate with one attachment style or you're operating in codependency or whatever you want to call it, it's probably not just in your romantic relationships, or that's what I've realized. It's in my friendships, it's in my work relationships, all those dynamics, it's everywhere. So I think it's so great that you guys address that.

I love what you said earlier.

I thought it was such a good example for people to think when you were like, I'm in a bit of a codependent relationship at work. Yeah, with the way, I was like, that's such a good example because yeah, ultimately your attachment style or codependency that comes with an attachment style, those are your patterns in the relationship to yourself first, and that's why they go with you everywhere because there you're in a relationship to self, so of course that shows up in career or friendships or family relationships and really like all aspects of life. Yes, uh, well, if you guys are resonating at all, I'd totally recommend going.

To check out tysis stuff. Where else can people find you if they were interested in just keeping up with your work or talking to you anything like that.

Yeah, So I'm on YouTube.

We post a daily video on there, it's Personal Development School dash Tye Gibson. And then we are on Instagram. We've just started like being more active on our Instagram channel and then of course at Personal Development School dot com.

Okay, amazing, I'll put all of that in the description for of this podcast for you guys. Tey you thank you so much. This was like therapy for me, Like I said, very very helpful for me today especially, so I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me.

You're amazing, you know so much, And this is such an inspire conversation because of how deep you go into everything.

So I love being here.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you guys so much for listening.

Thanks for listening to the Velvet's Edge.

Podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe everyone has a little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.