The You ProjectMeggie Palmer spent fifteen years as a journalist and foreign correspondent in Europe, the USA and Australia, working for BBC World, CNBC, SBS Dateline, Channel 7, Channel 10, SKY, Vogue, Marie Claire and News Corporation. She is a founder, speaker, journalist, and proud Aussie who now calls New York City home. She founded ‘PepTalkHer’ and is on a mission to close the gender pay gap. She travels globally speaking and helping companies with retaining female leaders and diversity. Meggie is a human dynamo, a self-confessed workaholic, a fighter for equality, a problem solver, an outside-the-box thinker and a brilliant communicator, and I loved our chat.
peptalkher.com
Okay, I tell them it's the bloody you projected, Harps, It's it's Meggie. It's I feel like this is going to be fifty minutes of fucking mayhem. But that's all right. We've known each other, Yeah, we've known each other for a rock solid three minutes, and it's it's we're already having issues, which could be a sign of things to come. O. Meggie, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me. What a tree? What a tree?
Yeah? Sure? Where are you tell my? Tell my audience where you're at at the minute.
Yes, So I live in New York City. I actually moved to Brooklyn.
So that's right.
I'm in my in my home office in Brooklyn, New York.
Why why did you move there? What? What what took you there?
I guess adventure.
I guess growth from a business perspective and a personal perspective, and I guess, like, why not?
Although, now that I reflect on it, now that you've asked me that question.
And you did, we did talk about a commitment to be very courageous and open and honest in this conversation.
So I want to try. I want to stay true to that. I think part of the reason honestly, Craig.
Where I left was I found it a business focused on the gender pay gap and really a lot of unconscious.
Bias that exists.
And at the time when I left Australia seven or eight years ago, I didn't really feel like I could have as many open conversations about that topic I would have liked.
And I found that in New.
York City people were more open to having those conversations.
I think that's different now.
I think Australia has changed a lot since then, But at the time I kind of felt like I needed to go somewhere where people were more willing to have those conversations.
How did you fit into Because New York is pretty chaotic. It's amazing, it's beautiful, it's a fucking tapestry of humanity and all of those things, but it's also bedlam. How have you fitted in? Ah?
Yeah, it can be chaotic for sure.
And you know what's so interesting Being in Brooklyn now, I'm like, ah, just that little bit more zan, which I love.
Look, you know, I was really lucky when I moved to New York.
People Americans, well maybe not Americans. New Yorkers are very generous and open with their networks. Certainly that was my experience. So you'd meet someone who'd introduce you to someone, who'd invite you to a party, who'd introduce you to someone. So I kind of felt very adopted and very hugged and very embraced. But there's also very niche communities here, Craig. So, like, if you are, you know, a guitar playing softball loving, I don't know, Vegan, you can find your people, you know what I mean. So there's a lot like very specific like women entrepreneur communities.
Like so I kind of like found my people and that was really hard.
So where'd you grow up? Meggie?
So I grew up on a farm west of the Gold Coast in a place called Guanaba, like a small farm, grew up there, so school on the Goldie shout out.
To sea, Queensland is listening.
And went to Brisbane to study and then you know, traveled all over the East and Seaboard to different cities for work as a journalist.
Wow. And have you family come over to visit you in New York?
Yeah?
Super lucky they come over. We have a visitor at least once a year, if not more times than that a year which is also get to have quality time with them here as well.
So what was your first gig out of school or what did you study? I know you went to UNI. I know I know the answer to some of these questions, But what did you study at UNI? So?
I studied business and journalism when I was at UNI, and I majored in What are I major?
In?
Public relations? And Italian? I think was what I majored in.
I heard it was beer and nightclubs.
But okay, well, yeah, that's that's well, that's true. Actually, So I went to college. I lived on campus at Cromwell College, shout out to any Cromwellians. And I really got a degree in party a master's in partying.
Shall we say?
Nice? Nice? Yeah? What did you think? What? What did you think you were going to do when you left? What was the was the intention to be a journo?
No, it's a weird thing, isn't it.
Like when you're like seventeen, you're basically like, what don't I do with the next fifty years of my life?
It's so weird.
I just remember, like, you know, like skimming through that book where you could like choose all the different courses, and I was like, it was just like throwing a dart at a random book. It's so random to make that decision at such a young age. I just wanted to do something with people and right, and I didn't know I didn't really want to be a journal I actually had an ex boyfriend who threw a random set of circumstances in some ways influenced me to end up becoming a journalist.
So there you go. It is. It is weird, right that at seventeen I was Some would argue I'm still a more on, but I was definitely a more on at seventeen, right, I was a fucking I'm not even being self deprecating. I was a fucking idiot in terms of I didn't study it. No, I really was. I didn't pay attention. It's preoccupied with girls in sport. You know. My vision for the future was about three days write. Anything beyond that was overwhelming. And then they're like, exactly, especially when I was a kid, they're like, all right, so what do you want to do for let's say, othern't know the next half century. I don't know what I want to do next Tuesday, right right, I.
Don't know if you remember this cra I felt so much pressure.
I went to a very academic high school, though, but I just felt like there was a lot of pressure to like.
You had to go to you just like I don't know, it's just a lot.
On kids' shoulders, Like it's a lot.
I just think we should all chill out. Life is long, you know.
I also think the idea that you need to find the thing that you're going to do for the next one hundred years is a dumb idea. I don't think it's founded in any logic, and I guess through necessity in the olden days, you know, before you were around. But I get it. But also at the same time, I think, now it's like my training partner, his daughter I've been I've known since she was a baby, and she's nineteen now. She's just doing a gym instructor's course and she doesn't really know what she's fitness instructor PT all that stuff, and she's asking me because of my background, she's asking me questions every seven minutes, right, And I see, do you know what, it doesn't matter like do it for ten minutes. You might love it, you might hate it. You could be a fucking neurosurgeon. In ten years, you could be a pilot, you could be you can be what you know. It's like, you do not need to figure it out now, figure out what you want to do in the short term. Do that because you might, I reckon, like a lot of forty year olds in the future are going to have had fifteen careers by the time they get there.
Totally, totally, so it's okay. Well, and to your.
Point, sometimes figuring out what you don't want to do is just as powerful that's figuring out what you do want to do. Like I remember being like fourteen or fifteen and we had to do work experience and I was like very argumentative, shocker, love to argue with my dad, debating, etc.
I was that kid anyway. So I was like, I'm going to be a lawyer. That's going to be great. Everyone's like, yeah, you're going to be a lawyer.
So I did work experience with a QC like some fancy lawyer in Brisbane, and it was like it was the worst. Like I just remember these misogynistic lawyers in the elevator. I remember the way they looked at her, even though she was like more senior than them.
The way they was just gross. And then the way they would look at me, and I just knew.
I was like, they're never going to take me seriously, like they're always going to treat me as a second class citizen in this industry. I just kind of just and I was like, I just can't handle that. I'm going to get myself into trouble. So I just decided not to do law because of that work experience.
Wow experience.
So it's good though. I'm glad because otherwise I would have done law, and who knows where I would have ended up.
How old were you when you had that experience, I.
Reckon I was.
I must have been fourteen or fifteen. I was so young, but I just knew. I was like, oh, because you know, when you're little and you're in a school or whatever, you don't really know the real world and how like people discriminate. And also, to be fair, you know, very privileged to have not experienced discrimination up until that point.
But I was just like I just kind of became.
Really aware of misogyny and just like I was just I could just sense it.
It was a really weird experience, but I just knew. I was like, it's not for me.
Wow, And so how old are you now? Sorry, I'm forty.
Just had the big.
Foun Hell you're a dinosaur.
A right halfway to eighty, let's go.
So I'm just trying to get a context of what year that experience was. So that must have been really late nineties, right, yeah.
Yep, late yeah, ninety eight ninety nine.
And so we're quarter of a century later. Has it changed a lot, a bit or not at all?
What a great question.
No, I think it has absolutely. I think it's changed, I really do. I mean, listen, does that still exist? Maybe I should do work experience in a law firm again, perhaps, like, but I imagine it's more veiled now. I imagine it's not as overt as it was back then. I think we've made progress, absolutely, and we will continue to make progress. So if you look at the data, the un reckons we're two hundred years away ish from equality, and so it's just like, which is like, so the good news is we're making progress progress. The bad news is it's taking too long. In my humble opinion, So you know, my whole thing is like, well, I could sit around for two hundred years and see what happens, or could try each of us in our own way to make ripple effects today, tomorrow, the next day, so that eventually things crossed, we get to a tidal wave of change, so that hopefully those sticks come down to a shorter timeframe.
And so with equality in this kind of financial sense, you're talking like pay equality, I'm guessing it for this particular Yeah, so I don't even I mean, I know that it's real, but I don't even understand because I don't, like I've employed five hundred people right over the years. I don't even understand how that, like, if you're doing the same thing, Like, how do people even justify that? Because I remember you telling a story you were chatting with Luke on his podcast.
Oh yeah, Luke's the best.
Yeah, and we've been on each other show I think, or he's definitely been on this one. But and you were talking about an experience that you had as a journo where you that other people correct me if I fuck this up, but doing the same thing as you were getting paid more and you went in and went, hey, you guys, here's an oversight, you silly guys, just so you know, and they went, no, that's just how it is essentially Yeah, that the truth.
Yeah, yeah, no, you didn't fuck that story up. You nailed it. So yeah.
So, And I think in my experience and in a lot of experiences, when you think about the gender pay gap, which impacts women and also minorities, you know, women of color are impacted to a much larger degree. When you think about that, most of it's not conscious. So it's not like my boss, my old news director, was like, yeah, let's screw over Meggie, Yeah, let's do it. It's just like they had a pool of money, they a couple of things. They probably knew that certain people were going to blow up more than others if they didn't get a certain number.
And it's unconscious, right, And so actually, come this is so wild.
But if you look, there's three separate studies in three different countries, Craig that have actually shown that little girls get paid less pocket money than little boys.
And like, parents are not assholes, and parents.
Typically want to raise their kids fairly, right, It's just that there's a perception that if I'm chopping the wood with dad in the paddock or in the backyard or whatever for the fireplace, that is quote unquote tougher work than if someone is helping around the house set the table for dinner, for example.
So there is a perception that certain types of work.
Is tougher or harder or whatever, and so there is a disproportionate value put on that. So you know, women dominated industries are massively paid less than men dominate industries. So for example, like childcare and nursing are paid less than say banking or insurance for example, which are more pale dominated.
And actually what happens is as more women go.
Into certain industries, the average wage in those industries starts to drop. So it's a deep seated like generational bias that exists that isn't even conscious for all of us, by the way, I have unconscious bias, by the way, So you are there things that we can do to make that more conscious have shifted act to me, yes, But as you.
Know from your scientific.
Background as well, like unconsciously, there's things that just happen because it's what we saw in the media, or it's what happened in preschool, or it's what Gramdma used to say to us. You know, So all of those factors as well as other factors like for example, women do take more time out for caring responsibilities, so that impacks the data as.
Well for sure.
And also women are socialized or girls are socialized to want to do certain jobs like teaching, like nursing, which historically have been paid less. So society has said, nurses, we're going to value about here. Investment bankers, y'all are the real deal. We're going to pay you a hell of.
A lot more.
So there's three major factors that impact it. And as I say, a lot of that's not conscious necessarily.
Yes, yes, and I think that, yeah, it ends up where it ends up. But it's like it's it's financial, it's sociological, it's cultural, it's psychological. Like you said, I can't imagine too many parents are sitting around saying, all right, well let's give her five bucks. Let's give him eight bucks because he's got a penis. Yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, it is really interesting. All right, tell me about pep talk her.
Yeah, So basically to your story earlier, when I was a journal found out through a male ally actually who gave me a wink wink nudge nudge background info.
He was like, yo, you're getting screwed on pay I was like.
What never and and turns out, long story short, I was getting paid less. My paying conditions were quite different to my male colleagues, which I thought was bullshit. Obviously, I decided to say something because that's how I was raised, the debater in me. If you see something something and let's just say it didn't go down too well, Yeah, so they were pissed off that I knew they were pissed off that I wanted something done about it, and so that was kind of the genesis for being like, h if this is happening to me, I'll back to myself.
I knew I was an excellent journal I knew i'd get another job.
I was like, if it's happening to me, other people must be getting really screwed over to and sure enough, again, I didn't really know much about it then. I didn't understand the statistics. I didn't know that it's fifteen to twenty percent of a pay gap, depending on how you slice and dize the numbers. I didn't know that was happening, and I became really interested, how could you change it? So, long story short, I stayed as a journal and foreign correspondent for a couple more years. But on the side, I was kind of working on this idea of pep talker and how could we close the pay gap sooner? And how could I support professional women to earn more cash and get promoted faster. Because I'm a big believer, Craig, and I know you are too, of like when women have more money, like, awesome things happen, right because funny, use your choice. It gives you possibility. It allows you to make different take different roads in your life and your career.
And are we progressing slowly significantly somewhere in twin like is the progress? Are you happy with the rate of change and the rate of awareness and movement that you're seeing?
I mean, listen, obviously we'd all love to click our fingers and say puff, it's all.
Perfect, it's done, it's fixed, it's it's you know, we're all quote unquote equal perfect.
We live in this nirvana world.
Now, Obviously, progress could always be quicker. Someone said to me once, Actually I was a journalist. He said, Maggie, it takes a long time to turn a big ship, saying.
That three times quickly, And you mentioned it.
But anyway, so I think about this idea of like a big ship turning. And when you think about cultural change in the workplace, when you think about societal change of equality, of the gender pay gap, it does take a long time. I wish I could shove the ship around and fix it straight away, but I'm learning that that's not the way the world works.
Do I wish it would change faster?
Yes, Equally, you and I having this conversation, like your listeners in ninety countries around the world are thinking about this now and I ruminating on it, and hopefully they'll talk about.
It at dinner party, you know, Like to me, that's exciting.
And again, collectively, as this happens more and more and more, we will see more change.
And we are seeing change.
So we saw we went backwards during COVID, but we are again gradually progressing. The statistics and the data is getting better. So actually, in Australia and also in the United Kingdom, the major employers in the country have to publicly report what their gender pay gap statistics are, So if you work for a big company in the UK or Australia, you can google that. In Australia it's called wood GEA, the Women and Gender Equality Agency, and in the UK. I can't remember it, but if you just search gender pay gap United Kingdom you'll find And so that transparency and openness in talking about it, yeah, is making the companies go shait, we better fix that, right because there's a spotlight wow, and it's on the front page of.
The paper once even report comes out.
So yeah, policies changing, governments are starting to talk about it. We're seeing superannuation top ups and retirement top ups in certain countries for leave. So things are changing and in my mind that's a good thing. I'd love it to happen more and more and more, but it will. Let's say, this is generational change, so it's unfortunately going to take a long time.
So I know you were argumentative and a debata well a debata and probably loved a good argument and loved standing up for yourself and others, which is awesome. But were you Were you always entrepreneurial? Like did you like I was? I I hated having a job, yeah yeah, yeah, I had my first business at night. Not really a hustler. I just didn't like the traditional work model, like I haven't had a job in inverted commets since I was twenty five, So yeah, like working for an employer. So thirty five years I've worked for me, and I just like the freedom and the flexibility and the creativity and the problem solving and the growth and the experience that comes with figuring shit out, she go, and not having not having sick pay and not having holiday pay, and not having certainty and not having predictability. For whatever reason, I thrive in the middle of that. And yeah, but for you, was that always like did you want to work for you or did you think you would work for someone else forever?
I don't think I really knew, to be honest, Craig, I think my Sisla, my sister is much more entrepreneurial than I am. And to be honest, maybe I mean my dad had his own business. He was an engineer and had his own business. I don't think I really knew. I don't think I knew when I you know, it took me a long time to figure out that I needed to create a new way of you know, funding a paycheck and figuring out it took me until I was probably at least thirty, yeah, maybe twenty nine to thirty. But my sister, she was that person who, like everyone else, was going to the mall or you know, going to parties on the weekends, and she was down on the Gold Coast selling silver that she had imported from China when she was fourteen.
She was a true entrepreneur, I think, so I learned a lot from her.
And she now owns very successful bakeries on the Gold Coast like Paddock and Bam Bam, and she's got a big one down at Talibudre called Custard Canteen. So she runs these amazing bakeries and restaurants. So she's very entrepreneurial and I learned a lot from her. I think for me it probably was less in my blood as it was for her, and it was more circumstance. So as a foreign correspondent, you know, if there's a natural disaster, there's a big story, something happens on Twitter or on you know, the BBC, on breaking news, you potentially have to get your bag and get to an airport. And I just didn't want to live with my phone under my pillow when I slept anymore. I was like I was, I was moving towards anxiety, and I was like, this is not healthy for me, and I can't do this long term, and I admire my colleagues who do, and I'm grateful that they tell the stories around the world that we all need to know about. But it just it wasn't gonna be sustainable for me for the next forty years. So I was like, hmm, what does it look like if I'm not doing this? What transferable skills do I have? So when I was journal I started as a side hustle a media training company. So I started to figure out what's an invoice, what's a profit margin?
Like, how do you make cash? How do you get someone to buy from you? I don't know, because I don't teach you that stuff, even a business school like I didn't teach us that even as a like, no one teaches you know it, don't even get started.
It's so interesting, sorry to interrupt, but not at all in how many courses, even at university. Like when I did my undergrad degree in exercise science, I was in I was in my thirties, right, I'd already been working in fitness industry for one hundred years, and I was amazed. This is an indictment. I shouldn't even say it, but this is true. So when a three year full time three year undergrad degree in exercise science, there was one one semester which equaled twelve lectures on programming exercise in a three year degree. Right, So there was of course, you know, anatomy, physiology by maca all the other stuff, but in terms of come out as an exercise scientist and in the three years there was about twelve hours of how to write and prescribe exercise or how to you know, And it was I'm like, oh wow. And then when you think about even in you know, so my PhD is in neuropsych and my undergrad is you know, in exercise science. But you think about in how much of these jobs is dependent on your ability to create connection and rapport and communicate and to understand other people and to at least have an insight into someone else's reality and to be able to build trust and respect and create an experience with you know. None of that is taught, like, none of that, so we get I used to have people that would come to me with sometimes honors and master's degrees, who would want a job in one of my gyms. So one we're all personal training, all appointment based, higher level stuff, right, and they would they were brilliant with bodies, but terrible with people. Like they they would understand the anatomy and physiology of something, but in terms of creating a great experience or having a meaningful conversation, or or saying, hey, Meggie, how is your weekend? What did you get up to? By the way, what you eat for brecky? Why the fuck did you eat cocoa pops? What's going on? No capacity you know and no one like it's And I've said this to a lot of people, whether or not you're a banker or a trainer, or a doctor or a you know, a service provider in some other area. If you can't connect with people and build rapport and create great conversations and understand someone else's version of right now and tap into that and build trust, like you can't do your job.
Well, you can't. You can't get the change to happen. You can't take it from A to B. If they won't even walk.
With you to be they're like, fuck, there's this guy's the worst or this girl is the worst.
So I don't want to spend time with them. I don't trust them.
Well, also, yeah, in the moment, having that understanding that you know like you and I are in the same conversation but not the same experience.
So let's unpack that a little more. Yeah, what does that mean to you?
So it means that while you know, like everything, that every time you're in the middle of or I'm in the middle of an experience like right now, we're looking at that or we're experiencing it through our own lens, through our own window of understanding, through our own inner language, our own inner storytelling. So I might you know, like, let's say, f now, for example, twenty thousand people, no, let's make it a small number, ten people listen to this show. Yeah, right now, someone's going, fucking hell, how good's Meggie? And someone else is gone, eh, I don't know, maybe that whole bullshit pay gap and right, so, oh, Brian's there going fuck Meggie, what does she know? You know whatever? Right, and someone else is going, oh, thank god for this woman. She's a breath of fresh air, harps, can you get her on again? So it's not about what you're saying or I'm saying. It's about how people experience and processes. And so we are you are, I am, our listeners are consciously unconsciously creating their own reality without knowing it. So when something happens in the world, then you look through the Meg window and then you give it meaning and value and you label it just like Craig does. So you might look at something and go that's fucking hilarious, and I look at it and I go, well, that's highly offensive. Yeah, don't call me a cunt, right, yeah, So when I say that.
In America, that word lands differently here.
Let me tell you one d So when I say that word, you know, even now, there's a percentage of people that when I wish you wouldn't say that word Craig and I get it, and that's the reason I said it. But there are ninety seven one of my listeners who are like, ah, HAPs, he's a fucking idiot, because it ain't about like you think about four letters put together in a certain order. It doesn't mean anything until we say it means something.
Until we give it that meaning, right, And there will.
Be other people listening to you talk about, you know, the gender pay gap and be on the edge of their seat. And by the way, I truly think it is a great conversation and is a great cause, and it's nest all that, right, So that's truly what I think. But there'll be I would imagine a few dinosaurs, not that many on my listenership, I wouldn't think, but there will be people who would kind of roll their eyes at your kind of mission, right, And you know, because that's and there are people who like I've got people that send me messages regularly saying I've listened to every show you've ever done, and I'm like, you need a life. I love you, get a hobby.
On thousands of apps as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well we're into sixteen no. By the way, I love those people and I appreciate it. But and then there are other people who will listen to ten minutes and go he's a fucking idiot and then move on to Joe Rogan and I get it. I get it. Yeah, right, But this doesn't matter.
Either because it's yeah, because because you don't need all of them.
You see your people, right, But we don't have to agree or align. We just need to be respectful and understand other people, Like I don't need to agree with you to have a great conversation. I do agree with you, by the way, but I've had lots of conversations with people that you know, like away from the podcast, we probably wouldn't be besties. But it's not that they're good or bad people. It's just like, yeah, I don't I'm not really fascinated with that or you, or I don't really align with that ideology or that, and that's that's okay. Like in this we don't all need And this is the thing that we're seeing so much now with the echo chambers of belief and ideology. I know where everyone thinks that like if you don't agree with me on this, this, and this, well everyone in the world who doesn't agree with me is wrong. I'm like, fuck, there's so much the older that I get and I know this sounds cliche, Yeah, the more I realize how little I know, and I'm not saying that with false humility, it's you actually go, ah, I don't know. It's like I grew up in a religious paradigm, right, so I knew there was a God, and now I go, I don't know. Maybe there is. I don't know, though, because if I knew, then I'd have knowledge, which makes faith redundant. So even though it's uncomfortable for me to go, I don't know that's the truth.
You know, Well, it's like, look because also the older we get, the more experiences we've lived through, the more people we've met who've had different experiences, So the more knowledge we have in a way to help like.
Understand that there's still so much there's so many millions of people.
We haven't met yet, So how much knowledge out there exists that we don't even know about?
Do you know what I mean?
And to your point.
Earlier around the echo chamber, it is something that really worries me.
And I think about this too, obviously with the American election loom, you know, and maybe this is the journalist in me.
I don't know, Like I really want to understand.
I have a certain opinion about what I think is most helpful for a majority of folks post is election. Equally, you know, I grew up, I guess middle class. I don't know what it's like to be in middle America raising two point two kids with a Golden.
Retriever on one income.
I don't know what it's like to be long term unemployed, not to have health care, and to feel like there's no one out there looking out for me. Like and maybe if I live that experience, maybe I would have different political views, and I can't like, I can't fault people who.
Have that experience. I don't agree with certain opinions. But also I haven't lived their life.
I'm not in their shoes. I can take my kid to the doctor, I can put food on the table. So my life is very different, do you know what I mean? And I have the capacity and the privilege to vote a certain way because so many of my from a Maslow's hierarchy of needs perspective, so many of my needs, I know, are relatively met.
And I have a to go back to Australia.
At any point with Medicare, which I think again gives me a whole different perspective. You know why they're as Americans he who don't take their kids to the doctor because they think they'll go bankrupt. So I think it just you know, and I think also for people who are listening who've ever had a toxic boss, or a toxic relationship or any of those things. When I've dealt with people like that, something that's helped me is to try and think, like, wow, I wonder what they must have been through to feel the need to treat me.
Like that right, Like, if that's how you treat people, what has happened to you? Like, do you know what I mean? So sometimes that's a helpful framing that I've found well, and.
I think, like from a very far away perspective, It's like when you see and this is not probo anti anyone, This is just me observing human behavior and psychology and sociology I'm fascinated with. And it doesn't just happen in America, but I'm fascinated when you see two adults who are going to be leading a fucking countryally one of them and what they're doing in public is basically insulting the other person and going, oh, he's this or she, And so what we see is all of these people who are allegedly some of the most intelligent leaders who are going to steer our country to the next whatever, basically insult trying to insult their way to a victory. I'm like, do you not understand how stupid you look, how juvenile this is, how how like unaware this is that this is your strategy is to insult people to the point where you think that that will sway public opinion that now you will have some kind of electoral advantage or to me, it's just the epitome of fucking ignorance and stupidity that oh god.
We wouldn't accept that from preschool kids, Like if pies were doing that, they'd get a detention.
Do you know what I mean exactly? I want to take a left turn. Before you and I chatted missus vulnerability, he said, Oh, I went and saw my therapist today.
Yeah, and did, And I want to talk about that.
We've had lots of therapists on here, and Tiffu works with me, sees doctor Bill, her therapist, and we talk all the time about this stuff. So how long have you been seeing a therapist for? Ah?
So, I reckon. I started getting therapy maybe fifteen years ago.
My parents got divorced when I was in my mid twenties, so that's I think the first time I went to see a therapist, and then basically on and off since then, pretty when I started my own business.
I've been very consistent.
I've always been working with at least one therapist and or coach and or whatever at the same time. But therapy therapy, I've kind of I fell off the wagon for maybe two or three years but I've again, I've had coaches, I still have, I still work with multiple coaches, but therapy therapy it kind of felt right. So I've actually still wanted to see a guy in New York who was referred to me by a dear friend of mine and she had a very traumatic experience and she actually did a hypnosis therapy session with him and she got attacked when she was overseas and she said it it totally worked wonders for her, and so I am very I fortunately have not had a traumatic experience, but there's just a couple of things that I've been like, I think I need.
I felt a few blockers Craig in terms of like the business and my merely my mindset. I'm the I'm the problem. It's me, to quote Taylor sw So.
So I was like, I'm going to take her a referral, and you know what, I emailed him two years ago and it's taken me this long to kind of I don't know, for some reason, I was like a bit scared or just like whatever, I wasn't ready and then yeah, I had a session with him today. I just like I feel like I have rose colored glasses on, like I feel it was a really powerful, really powerful session.
What makes a good therapist? Do you reckon?
It's a good question because I've had a bad therapist as well.
I had I had a therapist once when I was when I was a correspondent, I had a therapist and she was like, do you think you could get me a job on TV? And I was like, this feels inappropriate? She was actually, this wasn't. Yeah, this is going back a long time. So what would I say makes a good therapist? I think a referral is always nice because then you're kind of not going in totally blind in terms of the quality control. For me, I think it's someone who has.
Experienced with a specific situation that you want handled.
So whether it's couple's therapy, whether it's in a child work, whether it's business whatever. And then just someone who it's an energetic match. It just feels like they're a good listener to me. I'm looking for a balance between space for me to unpack stuff on my own as well as a bit of practical strategy tangible. So I kind of want a bit of both. I want a bit of handholding and a bit of this is what you're gonna do next. Some people just want talk or some people just want tactics.
It's interesting.
We do a lot of executive coaching at my company and we probably straddle the two, I would say, but for me, I'm looking of the balance of both.
Interesting thing about therapy and you know anything really nutrition exercise is that obviously different things work for different people. Right. It's so I can get five ladies who want to, for example, you know, be fit, e, Lena stronger, you know, more must whatever, or five dudes or you know, it doesn't matter, smattering of everyone, it doesn't matter. But even if they've got the same goals, we can't take the same journey because they don't have the same body. They don't have the same personality, they don't have the same physiological responses. Their body doesn't interact with that stimulus the same as the next person. And so it's like therapy is the same. Like you might go and see old mate and go, oh, he's a fucking idiot, and I go there and I go, she's brilliant, She's amazing, right there was I've spoken about this too much, But there's a lady called Abigail Schreyer who wrote a book called called Bad Therapy, and she was talking about you would like this. She was talking about the fact that for some people, talk therapy is exactly what they need and it's it's very no pun intended therapeutic and valuable, but for others it's traumatizing. So when you know, you go there and you sit down every Tuesday at three and you open the door on the trauma that happened seven years ago once a week, and then the person's takes them three days to get back to status quo because they take all that emotional on psychological trauma out the door with them again. So I loved Basically she was saying, there is no which is no revelation, but there's no one size that fits all. And it's trying to understand whether or not it's a psychological diet or a physical diet or you know, it's like trying to what will work optimally for Meggie versus Craig versus John versus Sally. And it's even in you think about this, even in Korea, like you don't have a lot of certainty and predictability because you work for you, so you don't know next year how much money you're going to make. But most people or do kind of you know, because they've got a job and they've been with the company for nine years. They know next year, I'm going to earn one hundred and thirty grand, give or take, unless I get the sack, you know. Whereas with you, you are creative and you are solving problems, and you are seeing things that need to be addressed, and you're you're basically building stuff. Whereas for a lot of people that would not work for their personality or their psychology.
Well, so I want to challenge you on that because I actually think I think a lot of us fall into this trap of I'm going to earn one hundred and thirty K next year, So why would I talk to anyone else in my industry?
Why would I upscale? Why would I have the Why would I even.
Think about knowing how to build absite, how to build a website?
Why would I even bother?
But I actually, I actually and maybe it's because I've been laid off so I've lived through this experience in the past. I just think you always need a plan. B. Yeah, I think that's really important because if you've even if you've worked for the government for forty years, you could get made redundant, or by the way, you could be so miserable in your job that it is the best thing for your health to leave that company, right Or you may have a boss that's so toxic that it's just not tenable, so you may need like mentally, physically, whatever, it may be better for your emotional state if you do leave and if you could leave. So one of the things that we talk a lot about at Petsalco, with our community and with our executive coaching is like building firstly in your mind the possibility that there are plan bis and there are options out there for you.
That's the first thing.
To know that it is possible, even if you've been accountant for thirty years, even if you've been in marketing for six years, there's other options, because I think otherwise we get stuck and to our conversation, but before we got an air, like when we get stuck and we get stayed, and we get comfortable and like, well, if I leave, maybe I only make seventy K and I've got a mortgage, and I actually think, to me, that's a dangerous place to be because then I think it's like this, this fear of leaving one hundred and thirty K that maybe some people stay in situations work wise are making them sick or that are not serving them, and in fact you might.
Leave and make two hundred and sixty. Right, it's possible, maybe not straight away, but eventually.
Right. Yeah, I think I agree with you, Like I divide what you're saying, I agree with but also there are people that for them to be able to get themselves out of what they're in right now because of their practical is difficult. But yeah, I agree with you, And I also like, not even if you're ending a fucking million dollars a year, but if you hate it, if it's toxic, if it's killing me, well it's a terrible job. So you know how they talk about work life balance, I talk about work impact. I go because work life balance has gone. Yeah, yeah, like work life balance as well. It's kind of if you work this many hours and you don't work this many hours, then you've got this equilibrium, this numerical kind of equation and this much work, this much not work. Okay, you've got balance. No, that's complete dogshit, because it could work twenty hours a week, which is not many but if every hour is fucking horrible, that is really bad for your physical, mental, and emotional health. Conversely, someone like you or me, probably there's not many weeks where I wouldn't do it at least sixty hours of something, at least in the form of work, because but because I love what I do, I rarely get stressed, I rarely get anxious. I sleep great, I eat great, I work out every day, I have good social life, I have friends. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. And I'm not saying that sound good, but I work a lot. But in the middle of all of that, working a lot for me and which is not a recommendation, but for me it works. So it's trying to figure out not only what will I do and how much of it will I do, but what is the emotional and psychological consequence of that one?
And I think there's a hard question.
And so for people listening or like, I really throw us a batter in the works there, like I think we are like, and I do want to challenge everyone to think today, like, does your work bring you joy? Now?
It doesn't have to be the perfect job. And even as entrepreneurs.
Craig running our own business, there's days where I'm like, jeez, I love a regular paycheck, that'd be nice. But equally, you know, I do a four day week. My entire team we only do a four day week. And that's intentional because I want I want us to.
Live like I want us to be, to be working to live, not the other way around.
Right for me, that's important from a values perspective, and I think one thing that's helpful to think about and even if you know, thinking about Okay, so we're here today, at some point we're going to die.
I was born in nineteen eighty four. At some point I'm going to die.
Let's call it twenty eighty four whatever, right, Like let's say I lived told one hundred as in when I'm buried or created, TBD on that. But if there's a gravestone, you'll have nineteen eighty four to twenty eighty four, and there's a dash, right, there's a dash between those two years. And to me, I really for framings to think about, like what do you want that dash for your life? What what did that stand for? Like what do you want to be known for? Because it's not about when you were born. It's not about when you do. It's not about the awards, it's not about the bank balance. Who cares when you diets done? But what is that dash? What does that represent? What was the essence of how you lived and who you were when you lived?
Like to me, if you can.
Be like I can on heart, like I feel like I'm living in alignment with what I would want that dash to be, then that's great because you can you can get that impact or that that values alignment from community work or through your family or volunteering, or it doesn't have to be through your work. But sometimes your work is so misaligned from how you want to be remembered. That's when I think there's a disconnect and there's some serious questions that folks need to ask.
Yeah, and I think more broadly one hundred percent agree with you, But more broadly, not only does our work not align with our values, but neither does our lifestyle. Neither do our habits, neither do our relationships, neither does our behavior with food. Right right? This is you know, it's like, do you want to live in alignment? Well? Cool, identify your values and your beliefs and your standards and then build an existence around those things, which won't be easy or painless or quick, by the way, but once you could, you know, I mean that for me, the value of values, no pun intended, is that they're basically our internal sat nav. It's like, this is your guidance system. Yes, I've told this story a few times, Meggie, but we had You know, we're sponsored, We're on the Nova network, Shout out to Nova. And more than a few times I've been offered really good sponsorships. One massive sponsorship that I had to say no to because I couldn't. I couldn't sell that product that doesn't it would be. One of them was Booze. And like I've said a few times on the show, I'm not against Booze. I'm against alcoholism and people abusing booze because I work with people who suffer from addiction issues, amongst other things. And so for me to be the guy that works with that x and alcoholics, and me the guy that's never had alcohol in his life, to then be selling Booze on his program, it was very It wasn't a comfortable decision because the money would be fun, but it was a very easy decision because you know that doesn't and that's you know, I think when then we extrapolate that out to you know, like when I just say to someone do you want to be fit, healthy, functional, and you know physically operational as well? As everyone goes yes, and then say all right, are you currently self sabotaging that goal? And the answer is yes, yes. You know, it's like, what's my typical behavior and does that support who and how I want to be or not? All right, we want to wind up, but I want to ask you one or two questions, if that's all right, Yeah, so quick. One one of the things that you talk about, I think, if I got my research right in your corporate stuff is imposter syndrome. Mm hmm. Do you have you I'm sure you have at times felt like an impost stuff. Are you through that or does that still leave.
Oh my gosh, what a great question.
A thousand Well I have a thousand percent felt like an impost.
Have you I still do? I still think this is fucking ridiculous that I get to talk to you on the other side of the world, no over paying me to do this, and I'm just a dumb fuck from the country and I know all that sounds, but I do. I mean, I'm aware of it. Yeah, but yeah, like I coexist with my impost syndrome.
Yeah, And that's what a great way, a great way of putting it. It's about I think you want to well, the coexisting and for me, it's also quietening the voice slash channeling that voice to propel me forward because and they reckon, like seventy percent ish of the population experiences imposter syndrome. And by the way, we're in good company like Tom Hanks, my Angelou, Michelle Obama, Emma Watson, lots of lots of really high profile people talk about feeling like an impost as well. So we're not alone that the two of us and any folks listening who feel the same. Yeah. And actually, to be honest, a part of what we talked about tangentially today in my therapy session was imposter syndrome. And one of the things that we work with corporate workshops on is around a strategy to like, okay, as and when we've identified yes, we're experiencing that, cool.
Do we let it cripple us?
Or is there actually a three step process that we can actually follow to navigate through that and use it actually as a tool rather than a hindred So yeah, shout out to anyone else who feels you know, I really appreciate you sharing that, Craig, because I think actually, if we were more vulnerable and honest with our colleagues, with our coworkers, we would also give them permission to share that with us.
Because sometimes I thought I was the only one.
Like when I started on a really high profile show as a reporter, I thought like I didn't deserve to be there. I was like, why have they posted me? What is happening? And my boss took me aside and he's like, what's going on?
You're weird? And I was like, I just don't know why you hired me. I don't know why I'm here.
And he's like, oh, you're experiencing imposter syndrome and I was like what, I didn't even know what it was. And he shared with me that he's been feeling like that for the last thirty five years, which kind of gave me comfort because I was like, ah, Okay, so I'm not that weird.
Okay, that's good. He's been through it.
Maybe that gave me permission to know that I wasn't the weirdest person in the room, you know.
Yeah, but I think, yeah, I agree with you. By the way, I think it's closer to one hundred percent. But anyway, yeah, I admit it. You're quite right. Yeah, I mean, you know, for me self, doubt, insecurity, overthinking, fear of everything. You know, it's like it's normal. But yeah, the more that, the funny thing is, on this show and any forum where you have an audience, the more vulnerable you are in an intelligent way. But I talk to people about it, you know, because I was most morbidly Id's kid. I wasn't a great student. I wasn't a great athlete. I wasn't I was so fucking mediocre at everything, right, But it's but your mediocrity or you you know, well, Craig, you don't have awesome genetics. Craig, you're not a genius. Craig. You can't run fast, or dance or sing right, Craig. Cool? Okay, Well, with all that in mind, what can I do? Or Can I work hard? Yet? Can I make decisions? Can I learn? Can I develop new skills? Can I build resilience? Can I build understanding and awareness? Can I ask good questions? Can I take risks. Can I be brave all of that? Right, there's so many things that are totally optional that are life shaping and you shaping, you know, and the whole fucking self sabotage, which intersects with imposter syndrome where you're overthinking and your self doubt and your frustration and your avoidance and your like that then starts to create this self fulfilling prophecy of bad outcomes. You know, we're doing it to ourselves. But you know, like, yeah, I think that that you've I love that you've created your own thing, you know. I love that you've kind of built something from nothing in a good way. You know, you've recognized a need. And so there's this intersection of your creativity and your passion and empathy to help people but also navigate a legitimate problem and do something about it. It's amazing.
Well, I appreciate you saying that, Craig, and it's interesting hearing you speak.
I heard I forget who it was.
I heard someone say once that entrepreneurs often create in the world what they needed, and I wonder if you've created what you needed, what younger you needed, and same for I've created what younger Meggie needed in PEP talk her. And you know, the speaking that I do in the workshops that we run and the executive coaching that we do is probably what I needed five to ten years ago or maybe even still today. And actually for everyone listening as well, I think the bad experience is the negative things people told you, that the stories that are on repeat in your head that maybe are not serving you. Actually could that be a fuel to motivate you, to drive you forward.
Is there a way that actually you could create something or help support someone else. Maybe you don't need to start a business.
Maybe just actually your experience of what you went through sharing or coaching or counseling someone who's had something similar, Maybe that's your gift to be able to pay it forward to someone else such that they don't have to have as negative experience as what you did.
You know.
I think our stories what make us unique, you know, and so often I don't think that we're encouraged to share them. We're sort of like, oh, you gotta put this perfect face on Instagram or LinkedIn and like everything cunkyed orient it's actually not for everyone. And in sharing those things, I think in spaces where you feel safe and trusted and supported. There's power in that because you may give a voice to someone else right, or you may actually be sharing something that someone else needs to hear, which is I think why you and I both love stories so much and the sharing of knowledge.
Well, the thing is that when you're telling a story, too, especially if it's your story and it's real, you're building emotional connection with people, whereas just data information statistics don't tend to resonate with people the same. So if you can be a bit funny, a bit interesting, if you can be a storyteller, you're building connection with people, and then once you've got that connection, then you can kind of see where you want to go from there. But also, you know when people hear about you figuring it out as you go and you being treated poorly and you thinking Okay, I'm going to do something, and then you're taking action, then you're building something, and then you being brave. These are not theories or constructs. This is literally your journey, so DMA no, but it's your journey and that inspires people. It's like, I think that's the thing, and that's why I try to with these albeit somewhat you know, lumpy bumpy change in direction conversations is to not be too strategic. Let's not have the big fucking question seven question face fuck all that, you know. I did my first six hundred episodes of this show losing money, no sponsors, going backwards, costing me. But I loved every fucking moment of it because I was learning and understanding podcasting versus radio where I came from, and and and understanding you know, not only how to do it, but also how to like, what's the science of podcasting, what's the commercial roadmap for podcasting? And how do we you know. But at the same time, I was meeting people like I'm never going to meet you except for this, and so I get an hour with you, which I'm very grateful for. And I'm talking to this really smart person, and I'm learning and it's kind of you know, at the same time, I'm having a good experience. I'm getting taught and trained and told by some of the smartest people in the world on a daily basis, and I get paid for it. Now, it's fucking ridiculous. It's a scam.
Well well, and also, well, you've created that, right because you followed your curiosity and you know, you're you're the problem that you had that you saw a way to solve it, you know what interests you. And I think that's coming full circle to our conversation earlier where we talked about how ridiculous it is that you're supposed to choose your life direction at you know, sixteen or seventeen or eighteen.
Like look at us. It's like we're like very much not teenagers anymore, sadly, but like we're still figuring it out.
I heard someone once say everything is figure outable, and I think that's so true. Like, you know, the President of America, the Prime Minister of Australia, the city of some fancy bank, they don't know what they're doing either.
They also did not get a manual. Have they learned stuff?
Yes?
Do they google stuff daily? Yes? Do they ask the word for advice?
Also yes?
And so like there's no one out there who's like the oracle who's got it all sorted. Actually, everyone's reading and learning and listening and learning from each other. And I think the sooner that I wish that I'd figure that out earlier, I think I thought that people ahead of me had some bible that was like taught them what to do next. And now that I realized that, actually, it's also not the destination that's important.
Yes, we have goals, Yes we have revenue goals.
Yes we want to help one hundred thousand people in two years, all these sorts of things.
Yes, great, great, great, yes, but like who cares?
Like, actually, the journey and this conversation and my meetings earlier today and you know, my team and coaching fascinating women and supporting them through highs and like that's actually the joy. And I think figuring out that the journey is the joy. It's not about the destination, because the destination will change. Like I'm not a journalist anymore. I'm also not a lawyer, which.
I thought I would be at fifteen. Like it's the process, Like that's the joy for me.
And you're always always going to be in the journey or the journey and the process. And it's about who you become. Like it's not that you know, it's when you take the narrow path. That's when you climb the mountain, that's when you take the stairs. It's it's when you do the stuff that most people won't do that you become that you build competence and understanding and strength and awareness and skill. And then now you know, it's like you go into the gym and you lift, you do a hard thing. You work against resistance to literally become strong. So how do you become strong? You literally work against physical resistance and the byproduct is adaptation, and so too mentally emotionally, you know, sociologically, you push against you work against the hard shit. You do what's required, and yes, you create practical measures outcomes, which is beautiful, but also you're becoming fucking you two point zero in the middle of that, you know.
So yeah, and I think that's the set physically with the stuff that you're doing. You know, like if you want to get a big muscle, you got to do these ones. A week is not enough. But if you do it consistently, repetaibly, all of a sudden you got big bysets. And the stuff that we do, which is a lot about mindset and like negotiation tactics and reframing how you show up at work and that.
Kind of stuff.
It's repetition, right, it's a practice, and you don't I can't give you a pill and fix it. Sorry, It's a consistent practice. It's surrounding yourself with people. It's having the tactics, it's reframing when you go off track, you know, it's finding the things to be grateful for so that again you can come back to enjoying and loving the journey and falling in love with that, so that the destination, yes, you want to have it in mind. You want to be clear where are we going, but as and when that changes, as and when you miss it, as and when you surpass it. That's superfluous because the process itself was the priority.
There's another topic that we could do another day, but it's called destination disappointment, Meggie, and it's when you get to where you wanted to go, you get there and then you're like, oh this, I'm on the wrong mountain. Fuck, it's that mountain over there, you know. Because we think that when we get there wherever there is, that that's going to equate to some kind of internal nirvana, joy, calm, euphoria. And we get there, we're like, ah, oh hey, we're going to wind out, but thank you so much. How do people connect with you, follow you, find you, support you? How do they do that?
What a treat chatting with you Craig. Yeah, listen, I'm on LinkedIn. Meggie Palmer, em Mebgie, So say hi. Let me know that you're listening to this amazing podcast, and that's how you found me. I love staying touch. Pep talk her hr at the end. We're on Instagram and our website is pep talker dot com. If folks need support with salary negotiations, with supporting their learning and development teams at work, or cannot speaking, please reach out. We'd love to support you. But I'm just I'm just a lighted that you're having these conversations. I'm looking forward to Destination Disappointment the next episode.
That sounds like a LinkedIn post to me, Craig.
It does, it does. Let's let's do that. Hey, we'll say goodbye Affair. But for the moment, I appreciate you so much and thanks for staying up to do this.
You're the best.
Talk to you.
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