Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course break down the psychology of our twenties. If you have been a long time listener of the podcast, you will know that there is one ted talk I reference probably three to four times a year, and it's titled Your Elusive Creative Genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. This ted talk entirely changed how I thought about success, how I thought about inspiration, failure, and on a deeper level, what it really meant to be human. When Elizabeth or or Liza she's more commonly known as, released her book Big Magic, it once again changed my life and it is firmly one of my favorite, probably most read books of all time. When I was first really getting listeners with the podcast back in twenty twenty one, someone asked me who my dream guest would be, and I said Liz, because of that book, because of how incredible her mind is, because of all the books that she has since written, and all the wisdom that she really has to share. And it was a huge dream. Back in twenty twenty one one that I really never thought was going to happen, but now in twenty twenty five, it's somehow finally come true. And I couldn't be more excited to have Liz on the podcast to discuss how to find our purpose, how to keep making and creating things, dealing with failure, managing success, and the best advice she has for people in her twenties. This episode is so very special to me and will forever have a place in my heart. But I also just hope you all enjoy it and you learn something all right. Without further ado, I want to welcome on Liz Gilbert to the show, to the Psychology of your twenties. Liz, can you briefly introduce yourself and tell us about your work?

Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course break down the psychology of our twenties. If you have been a long time listener of the podcast, you will know that there is one ted talk I reference probably three to four times a year, and it's titled Your Elusive Creative Genius by Elizabeth Gilbert. This ted talk entirely changed how I thought about success, how I thought about inspiration, failure, and on a deeper level, what it really meant to be human. When Elizabeth or or Liza she's more commonly known as, released her book Big Magic, it once again changed my life and it is firmly one of my favorite, probably most read books of all time. When I was first really getting listeners with the podcast back in twenty twenty one, someone asked me who my dream guest would be, and I said Liz, because of that book, because of how incredible her mind is, because of all the books that she has since written, and all the wisdom that she really has to share. And it was a huge dream. Back in twenty twenty one one that I really never thought was going to happen, but now in twenty twenty five, it's somehow finally come true. And I couldn't be more excited to have Liz on the podcast to discuss how to find our purpose, how to keep making and creating things, dealing with failure, managing success, and the best advice she has for people in her twenties. This episode is so very special to me and will forever have a place in my heart. But I also just hope you all enjoy it and you learn something all right. Without further ado, I want to welcome on Liz Gilbert to the show, to the Psychology of your twenties. Liz, can you briefly introduce yourself and tell us about your work?

Yes.

Yes.

First, I'm so happy to be here and honored to be here talking to you. My name is Liz Gilbert. I'm known, I guess professionally as Elizabeth Gilbert, but that feels weird to introduce myself that way. I'm the author of Eat, Pray, Love, and Big Magic and the Signature of All Things, and City of Girls and a bunch of other books, and I also have I'm a fiction and nonfiction author. But I also spend a lot of time teaching, and I don't teach writing because I don't know how. But I teach a sort of general spirit of creativity, what I call creative living, a way of living where I simply define it this way where you make your decisions based on your curiosity rather than your fear, and that ends up becoming a very creative life. So I'm sort of known also for that as being a teacher of creativity kind of spirituality.

First, I'm so happy to be here and honored to be here talking to you. My name is Liz Gilbert. I'm known, I guess professionally as Elizabeth Gilbert, but that feels weird to introduce myself that way. I'm the author of Eat, Pray, Love, and Big Magic and the Signature of All Things, and City of Girls and a bunch of other books, and I also have I'm a fiction and nonfiction author. But I also spend a lot of time teaching, and I don't teach writing because I don't know how. But I teach a sort of general spirit of creativity, what I call creative living, a way of living where I simply define it this way where you make your decisions based on your curiosity rather than your fear, and that ends up becoming a very creative life. So I'm sort of known also for that as being a teacher of creativity kind of spirituality.

That would be an amazing job title to have a.

That would be an amazing job title to have a.

Teacher teacher of creativity and spirituality.

Teacher teacher of creativity and spirituality.

Yeah, I'm like, all right, so new career path unlocked. That sounds amazing. I think great, let's change the vision board up. I think I said this in my introduction, but most people know you for Big not for Big Magic, for Eat Pray Love. Probably. I think I was a little bit too young to really understand Eat Pray Love. But I did really understand Big Magic, and it was just such a beautiful book that I continue to reference to this day. Do you remember, you know, in the interest of understanding purpose, do you remember when you kind of realized, like, oh, I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be this creative, curious person. This is my calling.

Yeah, I'm like, all right, so new career path unlocked. That sounds amazing. I think great, let's change the vision board up. I think I said this in my introduction, but most people know you for Big not for Big Magic, for Eat Pray Love. Probably. I think I was a little bit too young to really understand Eat Pray Love. But I did really understand Big Magic, and it was just such a beautiful book that I continue to reference to this day. Do you remember, you know, in the interest of understanding purpose, do you remember when you kind of realized, like, oh, I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be this creative, curious person. This is my calling.

Yeah, And I'm really glad you used the word calling, because I would love to just launch in with some thoughts that I have about the word purpose and how how much anxiety that word causes. Can we can we just start with.

Yeah, And I'm really glad you used the word calling, because I would love to just launch in with some thoughts that I have about the word purpose and how how much anxiety that word causes. Can we can we just start with.

That up absolutely, because it's something obviously a lot of people listening to this like in their twenties, and the amount of them that email me being like, I don't know what my purpose is.

That up absolutely, because it's something obviously a lot of people listening to this like in their twenties, and the amount of them that email me being like, I don't know what my purpose is.

Oh God, okay, let's get into it.

Oh God, okay, let's get into it.

Please get into it.

Please get into it.

My honeys, my sweeties, you have been so terribly misinformed. This is my opinion. Everything I'm saying is my own opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest. But I will throw out into the void and it will land on whoever it needs to land on. That there's this thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it. And I know some of the people who appear to be at the very very very top of a purpose driven life and have apparently achieved it, and they also still suffer from purpose anxiety. And the reason that everybody suffers from purpose anxiety is because everyone in Western contemporary culture has been told this same theology, and it really is theology. And you've been told vary it's of this from the time you were born, and you've heard it in every graduation and commencement speech and in every self help book, and no one who's ever questioned whether it even makes sense or whether it is even true. But here's the theology. Everyone is born with a unique purpose that is completely their own and totally unrelated to anybody else. It's one thing that only you can do. Nobody but you can do it. So already that creates anxiety and me because there's eight billion people on the planet, and so what I'm supposed to find something in me that is that no one else can do like that doesn't the math don't even add up on that, right, And you should. You should know it from the time that you're born, and you should always know what it is. It should be extremely clear what it is. And then your job is to devote your entire life to that one thing too. And if you miss the boat and it's too late and you haven't gotten on that, you should be extremely anxious and ashamed of yourself that you don't know what it is. I mean, this is what people are taught. And then you must become the master of that thing. You must devote an enormous amount of time, attention, and money to mastering whatever that thing is, that unique spark that nobody else has. And then you must monetize it, because if you make your money doing anything other than the thing that is your unique spark and purpose, then you are a failure. And it's not enough that you must monetize it. You must become the best at it, and you must also create opportunity for others, and you must then change the world through your purpose. This is what literally everybody is told and no wonder everybody is full of anxiety about it. And I mean, if we can just break it down for a minute, it's for well, it comes from a place of enormous hubris and arrogance to portend to believe, like to think that you can know what you are here for, when we don't even know what this is, this planet, consciousness, this experience, like we don't even know, We literally have no idea what's going on, and like why your soul was dropped into your particular body and born into your like we can't know, and anybody who pretends that they know you should be very suspicious of them. So there's an enormous arrogance. Also, can you hear how self centered it is. Purpose theology comes from Western men, and so it's all about I have to be incredibly important. I actually have to be the most important, and I have to change the world in my own image. And this whole idea, even that you have to change the world, there's a tremendous arrogance in that too, because I think at this point, if you look around the planet, the world is pretty clearly saying like I wish you people would stop changing me.

My honeys, my sweeties, you have been so terribly misinformed. This is my opinion. Everything I'm saying is my own opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest. But I will throw out into the void and it will land on whoever it needs to land on. That there's this thing called purpose anxiety, and I scarcely know anybody who doesn't suffer from it. And I know some of the people who appear to be at the very very very top of a purpose driven life and have apparently achieved it, and they also still suffer from purpose anxiety. And the reason that everybody suffers from purpose anxiety is because everyone in Western contemporary culture has been told this same theology, and it really is theology. And you've been told vary it's of this from the time you were born, and you've heard it in every graduation and commencement speech and in every self help book, and no one who's ever questioned whether it even makes sense or whether it is even true. But here's the theology. Everyone is born with a unique purpose that is completely their own and totally unrelated to anybody else. It's one thing that only you can do. Nobody but you can do it. So already that creates anxiety and me because there's eight billion people on the planet, and so what I'm supposed to find something in me that is that no one else can do like that doesn't the math don't even add up on that, right, And you should. You should know it from the time that you're born, and you should always know what it is. It should be extremely clear what it is. And then your job is to devote your entire life to that one thing too. And if you miss the boat and it's too late and you haven't gotten on that, you should be extremely anxious and ashamed of yourself that you don't know what it is. I mean, this is what people are taught. And then you must become the master of that thing. You must devote an enormous amount of time, attention, and money to mastering whatever that thing is, that unique spark that nobody else has. And then you must monetize it, because if you make your money doing anything other than the thing that is your unique spark and purpose, then you are a failure. And it's not enough that you must monetize it. You must become the best at it, and you must also create opportunity for others, and you must then change the world through your purpose. This is what literally everybody is told and no wonder everybody is full of anxiety about it. And I mean, if we can just break it down for a minute, it's for well, it comes from a place of enormous hubris and arrogance to portend to believe, like to think that you can know what you are here for, when we don't even know what this is, this planet, consciousness, this experience, like we don't even know, We literally have no idea what's going on, and like why your soul was dropped into your particular body and born into your like we can't know, and anybody who pretends that they know you should be very suspicious of them. So there's an enormous arrogance. Also, can you hear how self centered it is. Purpose theology comes from Western men, and so it's all about I have to be incredibly important. I actually have to be the most important, and I have to change the world in my own image. And this whole idea, even that you have to change the world, there's a tremendous arrogance in that too, because I think at this point, if you look around the planet, the world is pretty clearly saying like I wish you people would stop changing me.

Yeah you've done take a break, Yeah you've done enough, and that's time led.

Yeah you've done take a break, Yeah you've done enough, and that's time led.

The most purpose driven lives are the people who have perhaps done the most damaged to the planet and to other people. So everything about it is so distorted and and and it's all it does is cause people to suffer. And I've met and I've met the people who are living at the top of that game, and they are not relaxed, they are not at peace, and they never know whether they've done enough, Have they changed the world enough, have they made a big enough impact? Oh and if you're thinking great, I can't wait to die, because then this will this whole purpose anxiety thing will be over. You're also supposed to leave a legacy, right, So it like never ends. The self centeredness, the arrogance, and the anxiety of purpose theology never end. So what I am gently here to offer as a counterpoint to a purpose driven life is a life of presence, because the other thing about a purpose driven life is that it constantly has you in the future. You can't live a purpose driven, anxiety driven theology without always being locked in the future of like, who am I going to become? What am I going to do? What is my impact going to be? Who am I going to affect? And you completely miss life? You completely miss life. I mean, my favorite spiritual teacher Byron Katie says, if you want to suffer, get a future. So this obsession with the future will bring you nothing but pain. So the contrary position to take is a life of presence, which is simply being a witness to the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being on this planet and observing it and being like this is so I mean, because it is objectively interesting. It's not safe this planet it never has been for people. But it's a really interesting experience.

The most purpose driven lives are the people who have perhaps done the most damaged to the planet and to other people. So everything about it is so distorted and and and it's all it does is cause people to suffer. And I've met and I've met the people who are living at the top of that game, and they are not relaxed, they are not at peace, and they never know whether they've done enough, Have they changed the world enough, have they made a big enough impact? Oh and if you're thinking great, I can't wait to die, because then this will this whole purpose anxiety thing will be over. You're also supposed to leave a legacy, right, So it like never ends. The self centeredness, the arrogance, and the anxiety of purpose theology never end. So what I am gently here to offer as a counterpoint to a purpose driven life is a life of presence, because the other thing about a purpose driven life is that it constantly has you in the future. You can't live a purpose driven, anxiety driven theology without always being locked in the future of like, who am I going to become? What am I going to do? What is my impact going to be? Who am I going to affect? And you completely miss life? You completely miss life. I mean, my favorite spiritual teacher Byron Katie says, if you want to suffer, get a future. So this obsession with the future will bring you nothing but pain. So the contrary position to take is a life of presence, which is simply being a witness to the extraordinary, unknowable, miraculous strangeness of being a human being on this planet and observing it and being like this is so I mean, because it is objectively interesting. It's not safe this planet it never has been for people. But it's a really interesting experience.

It definitely is.

It definitely is.

It's a really interesting experience to be who you are in your culture that you were dropped in at this moment of history. And I think that experience itself would like a few people to relax and observe it and actually be like this is wild, Like this is absolutely wild. And I don't know what I am, and I don't know who I am, and I don't know where I'm going, and I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but it is very interesting to be here. And if you start from that perspective and you begin to follow the track of your curiosity of what's most interesting, you will have an interesting life. You may not have a life that certain kinds of people would look at and say is successful.

It's a really interesting experience to be who you are in your culture that you were dropped in at this moment of history. And I think that experience itself would like a few people to relax and observe it and actually be like this is wild, Like this is absolutely wild. And I don't know what I am, and I don't know who I am, and I don't know where I'm going, and I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, but it is very interesting to be here. And if you start from that perspective and you begin to follow the track of your curiosity of what's most interesting, you will have an interesting life. You may not have a life that certain kinds of people would look at and say is successful.

But I'm not interested in those kinds of people.

But I'm not interested in those kinds of people.

I'm not part of the conversation.

I'm not part of the conversation.

Like I have a friend who says, everybody's got a brother in law named Phil Who's like, yeah, but what are you doing?

Like I have a friend who says, everybody's got a brother in law named Phil Who's like, yeah, but what are you doing?

Like what are you doing for your job? Like what's your plan?

Like what are you doing for your job? Like what's your plan?

Like?

Like?

Must be nice to take you know, must be nice to you know, Like just everyone's got back in their life. Yeah, and fil must be ignored.

Must be nice to take you know, must be nice to you know, Like just everyone's got back in their life. Yeah, and fil must be ignored.

Phil must be ignored. It's so funny, Like I see this on social media all the time, where it's like often some young woman or young man like exploring some creative side of them, making our posting just for fun whatever it is, writing just for fun, And there's always someone in the comments being like, must be nice not to have work a full time job, like must be nice to take a break, And I'm like, well, yeah, it is really nice. I'm sure it is really nice for them.

Phil must be ignored. It's so funny, Like I see this on social media all the time, where it's like often some young woman or young man like exploring some creative side of them, making our posting just for fun whatever it is, writing just for fun, And there's always someone in the comments being like, must be nice not to have work a full time job, like must be nice to take a break, And I'm like, well, yeah, it is really nice. I'm sure it is really nice for them.

In fact, it is, thank you, it's yeah.

In fact, it is, thank you, it's yeah.

In fact, it's lovely, Like I get it all the time with people, Like people will come across like the podcast and come across like my online presence and we'll be like, wow, you call that work, you call that whatever, like and get really upset with me, and I'm like, honestly, all I'm hearing there is a desire to have what I have, Like you think that your reality of needing to prove yourself and work hard and never take a day off and always be like thinking about your family and thinking about everyone else like that doesn't actually sound particularly desirable. So I often like that's how I try and treat it, and like, I just feel kind of bad for those people who are raised again with the theology that you have one purpose and if you haven't found it, bad luck, time to be miserable and just work the ninety if.

In fact, it's lovely, Like I get it all the time with people, Like people will come across like the podcast and come across like my online presence and we'll be like, wow, you call that work, you call that whatever, like and get really upset with me, and I'm like, honestly, all I'm hearing there is a desire to have what I have, Like you think that your reality of needing to prove yourself and work hard and never take a day off and always be like thinking about your family and thinking about everyone else like that doesn't actually sound particularly desirable. So I often like that's how I try and treat it, and like, I just feel kind of bad for those people who are raised again with the theology that you have one purpose and if you haven't found it, bad luck, time to be miserable and just work the ninety if.

You have wasted your life. You know, it also treats life rather than being a miraculous, mysterious, unknowable gift. It treats it as something that must be earned, that you must earn your place, You must earn your right to be here. And whatever created you doesn't seem to think so, because it just dropped you here. It didn't seem to think you had to earn your right to be here. And you know, I also I would love to just take a moment and talk about these four different things that people often amalgamate into one thing and that also causes anxiety. And the four things are hobby, job, career, and calling. So I just want to take a moment and distinguish between these four things. Okay, So a hobby is something that you do because it's fun and you like it, and that's the thing that you post on social media and people are like, must be nice to take a pottery class.

You have wasted your life. You know, it also treats life rather than being a miraculous, mysterious, unknowable gift. It treats it as something that must be earned, that you must earn your place, You must earn your right to be here. And whatever created you doesn't seem to think so, because it just dropped you here. It didn't seem to think you had to earn your right to be here. And you know, I also I would love to just take a moment and talk about these four different things that people often amalgamate into one thing and that also causes anxiety. And the four things are hobby, job, career, and calling. So I just want to take a moment and distinguish between these four things. Okay, So a hobby is something that you do because it's fun and you like it, and that's the thing that you post on social media and people are like, must be nice to take a pottery class.

Yeah, it is nice. You know, and hobbies.

Yeah, it is nice. You know, and hobbies.

Actually bring an end to anxiety, like huttering about making things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure. Until very recently, everyone had hobbies and most of life was just people doing stuff because they liked doing it and it was fun. And it doesn't have to be monetized. You don't have to be the best at it, you don't have to become famous at it. My biggest suggestion to people who are in purpose anxiety is to get a hobby that has absolutely no connection to anything productive and enjoy it, because life is also meant to be enjoyed, So that's a hobby.

Actually bring an end to anxiety, like huttering about making things for no reason, doing something simply because it's a pleasure. Until very recently, everyone had hobbies and most of life was just people doing stuff because they liked doing it and it was fun. And it doesn't have to be monetized. You don't have to be the best at it, you don't have to become famous at it. My biggest suggestion to people who are in purpose anxiety is to get a hobby that has absolutely no connection to anything productive and enjoy it, because life is also meant to be enjoyed, So that's a hobby.

A job.

A job.

A job is a thing that, unless you are a trust fund baby or landed gentry, you have to have. But here's the thing, you don't.

A job is a thing that, unless you are a trust fund baby or landed gentry, you have to have. But here's the thing, you don't.

Have to like it.

Have to like it.

Like I've had so many jobs in my life that I didn't like. You don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be your purpose. You don't have to be great at it, you don't have to come It doesn't have to consume your entire life. It's just a thing you have to do to make some money so that you can go home and have hobbies.

Like I've had so many jobs in my life that I didn't like. You don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be your purpose. You don't have to be great at it, you don't have to come It doesn't have to consume your entire life. It's just a thing you have to do to make some money so that you can go home and have hobbies.

Right like that, I love that thinking about it.

Right like that, I love that thinking about it.

Get a job, you know, just get a job.

Get a job, you know, just get a job.

It doesn't like like and it's like, don't give your heart to it. Deliver thirty percent at work, you know, like they'll never know, Like a job is a place where you can go and just phone it in and they'll never know.

It doesn't like like and it's like, don't give your heart to it. Deliver thirty percent at work, you know, like they'll never know, Like a job is a place where you can go and just phone it in and they'll never know.

Yes, I always say to people. I'm always like, just act your wage, like, act your wage, like if.

Yes, I always say to people. I'm always like, just act your wage, like, act your wage, like if.

You act your wage exactly, like.

You act your wage exactly, like.

If you're getting paid minimum wage, minimum worm perfect.

If you're getting paid minimum wage, minimum worm perfect.

And this goes totally against capitalism purpose anxiety to say that in theology, But just to show up, do the least you can do to get to keep your job, and then have your life be outside of your job, with the things that you're curious about, the things that you enjoy, the people that you like being with. So that's a job. It's not the same as a hobby. The next thing is a career. So a career is a job that you're passionate about, right, that's all a career is. Don't act like your job is your career if you're not passionate about it, Like, don't try to make a job into a career. If you're just like, this is just my job. You know, But if you are passionate about it and you feel like this is what I'm here to do, and I'm here to serve humanity in this way, then you pour yourself into your job. So a career is a job that you pour yourself into because it brings you so much love and satisfaction. And it doesn't even matter how much they pay you. You would want to do it anyway, and like you really do show up for But you don't have to have a career, like you do have to have a job, but you don't have to have a career, right, And if you are in a career and you don't love it, you should quit and get a job. Yeah, I love Your career is to start your life.

And this goes totally against capitalism purpose anxiety to say that in theology, But just to show up, do the least you can do to get to keep your job, and then have your life be outside of your job, with the things that you're curious about, the things that you enjoy, the people that you like being with. So that's a job. It's not the same as a hobby. The next thing is a career. So a career is a job that you're passionate about, right, that's all a career is. Don't act like your job is your career if you're not passionate about it, Like, don't try to make a job into a career. If you're just like, this is just my job. You know, But if you are passionate about it and you feel like this is what I'm here to do, and I'm here to serve humanity in this way, then you pour yourself into your job. So a career is a job that you pour yourself into because it brings you so much love and satisfaction. And it doesn't even matter how much they pay you. You would want to do it anyway, and like you really do show up for But you don't have to have a career, like you do have to have a job, but you don't have to have a career, right, And if you are in a career and you don't love it, you should quit and get a job. Yeah, I love Your career is to start your life.

Just go get a job.

Just go get a job.

There's lots of jobs. Just go get a job, and then have hobbies and then have friends. And then the final thing is a calling, and a calling is something that you feel you are compelled to do because it's a spiritual fulfillment and not everybody has one, and not everybody needs to have one. And if you have one, you'll know because you already have it. And if you don't have one, you don't have to go out there searching for it, because don't worry about it. It's something you can't create. You can't create a calling. You either like higher power gave you one or didn't, and maybe one will come later or maybe it won't, So you can just relax about it. And if you've got a calling, then you devote yourself to it, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with whether you're being paid or not, and no one can ever take it away from you. I can lose my career. So my calling is to be a writer, and I knew that ever since I was nine years old, but it wasn't my career until I was thirty. But through that entire time before it became my career, it was my calling. So I did it while I had jobs. I did my calling. Nobody wanted me to do it, nobody paid me to do it, nobody was interested in me doing it, and then over time it became my career.

There's lots of jobs. Just go get a job, and then have hobbies and then have friends. And then the final thing is a calling, and a calling is something that you feel you are compelled to do because it's a spiritual fulfillment and not everybody has one, and not everybody needs to have one. And if you have one, you'll know because you already have it. And if you don't have one, you don't have to go out there searching for it, because don't worry about it. It's something you can't create. You can't create a calling. You either like higher power gave you one or didn't, and maybe one will come later or maybe it won't, So you can just relax about it. And if you've got a calling, then you devote yourself to it, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with whether you're being paid or not, and no one can ever take it away from you. I can lose my career. So my calling is to be a writer, and I knew that ever since I was nine years old, but it wasn't my career until I was thirty. But through that entire time before it became my career, it was my calling. So I did it while I had jobs. I did my calling. Nobody wanted me to do it, nobody paid me to do it, nobody was interested in me doing it, and then over time it became my career.

My career can be destroyed.

My career can be destroyed.

AI can take my career away, people can fire me, the world can decide it doesn't want to read a Liza with Gilbert books anymore. Like, there are so many ways I can lose my career. I'm not in control. Of that, and I'm aware of that, and if I ever lose my career, I'll just go get a job and go back to having hobbies. But nobody can take my calling away. Nobody could stop me from writing when I wanted to write even though they weren't paying me to, and nobody can stop me from writing now if my career folds. So that's the difference between a hobby, a job, a calling, and a career. And it's so important to know the difference because we live in a culture that has pushed them all together and said that you should you should have one thing that's all of that, and it isn't It isn't true. So I just want to just clarify that for everybody.

AI can take my career away, people can fire me, the world can decide it doesn't want to read a Liza with Gilbert books anymore. Like, there are so many ways I can lose my career. I'm not in control. Of that, and I'm aware of that, and if I ever lose my career, I'll just go get a job and go back to having hobbies. But nobody can take my calling away. Nobody could stop me from writing when I wanted to write even though they weren't paying me to, and nobody can stop me from writing now if my career folds. So that's the difference between a hobby, a job, a calling, and a career. And it's so important to know the difference because we live in a culture that has pushed them all together and said that you should you should have one thing that's all of that, and it isn't It isn't true. So I just want to just clarify that for everybody.

I can honestly feel the anxiety fading from people right now, because that is probably the biggest serious slash dilemma of questions that I get, which is, how do I know what I'm meant to do? How do I choose between these two jobs that one I'm more passionate about, one I'm less passionate about. How do I, you know, get the spark back for life? And honestly, I think a lot of the questions come back to that distinction between these four very distinct when you think about it, categories of being and categories of existing. I actually when I first started the podcast, it was very similar, like if it's this weird thing where I just knew that this is what I was meant to do. It was a calling, and I genuinely had no listeners. I recorded it in the back of my car, and I always tell the story of like in the first episodes, you can literally hear like trucks going by, you can hear birds in the background because I'm recording it on my phone, and it really didn't matter who listened. I just felt like I had to do it. There's an analogy that you have in your book and also in your ted talk about how an idea will sometimes just be dropped in your lap and you kind of have to make a contract with it and it kind of appears out of nowhere, right and it's just like, oh, oh my god, I've just had this brilliant idea. Some spirit has given it to me, the wind has shifted and brought it to me. And I just love how you say it's like whatever it is is trying to find the person who's going to make it reality, like it's going to try and find the best conduit for it to be real. And I honestly felt that about the psychology of your twenties. It was like, people ask me how I came up with the idea, and I'm like, I genuinely have no idea, Like, I have no idea. It just came to me, and I just knew I had to do it. But I do think that my relationship with it changed when I started making money and when it did become the thing that paid my bills, that allowed me, you know, it became a job, a hobby, a career, and a calling all it was. And I'm sure that was probably the case with writing for you as well. What happened when that, when that shifted, when the dynamic shifted entirely.

I can honestly feel the anxiety fading from people right now, because that is probably the biggest serious slash dilemma of questions that I get, which is, how do I know what I'm meant to do? How do I choose between these two jobs that one I'm more passionate about, one I'm less passionate about. How do I, you know, get the spark back for life? And honestly, I think a lot of the questions come back to that distinction between these four very distinct when you think about it, categories of being and categories of existing. I actually when I first started the podcast, it was very similar, like if it's this weird thing where I just knew that this is what I was meant to do. It was a calling, and I genuinely had no listeners. I recorded it in the back of my car, and I always tell the story of like in the first episodes, you can literally hear like trucks going by, you can hear birds in the background because I'm recording it on my phone, and it really didn't matter who listened. I just felt like I had to do it. There's an analogy that you have in your book and also in your ted talk about how an idea will sometimes just be dropped in your lap and you kind of have to make a contract with it and it kind of appears out of nowhere, right and it's just like, oh, oh my god, I've just had this brilliant idea. Some spirit has given it to me, the wind has shifted and brought it to me. And I just love how you say it's like whatever it is is trying to find the person who's going to make it reality, like it's going to try and find the best conduit for it to be real. And I honestly felt that about the psychology of your twenties. It was like, people ask me how I came up with the idea, and I'm like, I genuinely have no idea, Like, I have no idea. It just came to me, and I just knew I had to do it. But I do think that my relationship with it changed when I started making money and when it did become the thing that paid my bills, that allowed me, you know, it became a job, a hobby, a career, and a calling all it was. And I'm sure that was probably the case with writing for you as well. What happened when that, when that shifted, when the dynamic shifted entirely.

Well, yeah, when money is introduced, it changes everything. And it's not that I'm anti money. I'm very delighted that I can make my living doing this. I think the really important thing that that I have that I had to remember, and I've had to carry this through my entire career, is that well, I mean, it doesn't matter what your career is. This is and I'm just thinking this is actually the truth no matter what you're doing, whether you're a civil engineer or a or a painter, like it doesn't you know, nothing is promised. You know, nothing is promised and nothing is owed. Nowhere was there some sort of contract, either a social contract or a spiritual contract that said you're assured this, you get to you know, like this will continue, or you're allowed to have this, like you know, we're seeing that that as societies are breaking down in unions of raid and like, none of this is promised. And you can get angry about that, or you can just be a Taoist about it and sort of just go with the flow of energy of reality. And there's a beautiful line that I quote to myself all the time. That's from the Bug of a Gita, which is this ancient Indian Hindu spiritual text, and there's a line in there where one of the gods says to one of the heroes, you are entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And that is something that is hard to land on modern years, because we have a lot of sense of entitlement and it's like, well, I worked really hard, I should I worked really hard. I therefore should That's the that's the calculus of capitalism, you know, Like I worked hard, and therefore I should have this. And the actual reality of life on earth is nobody told you that.

Well, yeah, when money is introduced, it changes everything. And it's not that I'm anti money. I'm very delighted that I can make my living doing this. I think the really important thing that that I have that I had to remember, and I've had to carry this through my entire career, is that well, I mean, it doesn't matter what your career is. This is and I'm just thinking this is actually the truth no matter what you're doing, whether you're a civil engineer or a or a painter, like it doesn't you know, nothing is promised. You know, nothing is promised and nothing is owed. Nowhere was there some sort of contract, either a social contract or a spiritual contract that said you're assured this, you get to you know, like this will continue, or you're allowed to have this, like you know, we're seeing that that as societies are breaking down in unions of raid and like, none of this is promised. And you can get angry about that, or you can just be a Taoist about it and sort of just go with the flow of energy of reality. And there's a beautiful line that I quote to myself all the time. That's from the Bug of a Gita, which is this ancient Indian Hindu spiritual text, and there's a line in there where one of the gods says to one of the heroes, you are entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And that is something that is hard to land on modern years, because we have a lot of sense of entitlement and it's like, well, I worked really hard, I should I worked really hard. I therefore should That's the that's the calculus of capitalism, you know, Like I worked hard, and therefore I should have this. And the actual reality of life on earth is nobody told you that.

That's true.

That's true.

I mean, some people told you that who don't know how the world works. The way the world actually works is like it shrugs. It's like the world, you know, the universe is a little bit indifferent. You know, the universe is a little bit like, oh, maybe you'll have it, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have it for a while, maybe you won't. You know, Like I love that about like the sort of classical Indian theology and ideas of God is like God is much less a sort of reasonable, reigning judge than a kind of batty old lady who lives on the top of a hill and has money and gives it to some people who don't deserve it and gives it to other people who you know, and like makes promises and doesn't keep them and is a little bit senile. And it's like that's the actual reality of life, you know. And so I'm not entitled. I'm not entitled. I've had books canceled, you know, like I had a book canceled two years ago, right before it was published, you know, and it was like, wow, I could freak out about this and be like, I worked for four years on this. This is a tragedy for me that this book isn't being published, or I can live in accordance with reality and be like, well, that's interesting. That is objectively interesting that that happened. That is not what I expected. I think so much of life is just that is not what I expected. That's interesting. And the difference between living a life of anxiety and living a life of creativity. And my friend Martha Beck just recently wrote a book about how the antidote for anxiety, the opposite of anxiety is not relaxation, it's creativity. It's creativity is the only way out of anxiety. And the only way into creativity is to live from a spirit of that's interesting, rather than a spirit of like, what a nightmare. It's also a drama free life, to live from a place of like, that's interesting. Oh, somebody broke up with me who I thought I was going to marry. That is interesting. Wow, I really wanted kids and I can't have them. That is really interesting. The person I love the most in the world died who I thought was going to be like my anchor forever. That's interesting, you know, that is so interesting? What am I going to do now?

I mean, some people told you that who don't know how the world works. The way the world actually works is like it shrugs. It's like the world, you know, the universe is a little bit indifferent. You know, the universe is a little bit like, oh, maybe you'll have it, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have it for a while, maybe you won't. You know, Like I love that about like the sort of classical Indian theology and ideas of God is like God is much less a sort of reasonable, reigning judge than a kind of batty old lady who lives on the top of a hill and has money and gives it to some people who don't deserve it and gives it to other people who you know, and like makes promises and doesn't keep them and is a little bit senile. And it's like that's the actual reality of life, you know. And so I'm not entitled. I'm not entitled. I've had books canceled, you know, like I had a book canceled two years ago, right before it was published, you know, and it was like, wow, I could freak out about this and be like, I worked for four years on this. This is a tragedy for me that this book isn't being published, or I can live in accordance with reality and be like, well, that's interesting. That is objectively interesting that that happened. That is not what I expected. I think so much of life is just that is not what I expected. That's interesting. And the difference between living a life of anxiety and living a life of creativity. And my friend Martha Beck just recently wrote a book about how the antidote for anxiety, the opposite of anxiety is not relaxation, it's creativity. It's creativity is the only way out of anxiety. And the only way into creativity is to live from a spirit of that's interesting, rather than a spirit of like, what a nightmare. It's also a drama free life, to live from a place of like, that's interesting. Oh, somebody broke up with me who I thought I was going to marry. That is interesting. Wow, I really wanted kids and I can't have them. That is really interesting. The person I love the most in the world died who I thought was going to be like my anchor forever. That's interesting, you know, that is so interesting? What am I going to do now?

So on the.

So on the.

Video game of life? Like what is my next move? And the next move? If you want to have a life without a lot of anxiety, is what would be the most interesting thing I could do now?

Video game of life? Like what is my next move? And the next move? If you want to have a life without a lot of anxiety, is what would be the most interesting thing I could do now?

I also a very equal quote, which is the opposite of anxiety is trust, and I think that also comes into play here where you can be thrown like the most awful, terrible circumstances, but if you trust that you are going to make it through, maybe if you trust that you are capable of finding a route out, of finding your way back to a life that you really love and that you want, you will make it through. Most of the time, Like self trust is just such like I don't know, it's just such an antidote to so much. It's an antidote to imposter syndrome. It's an antidote to a lot of anxiety. And I really want to link back to what you were saying before of you know, God, the universe is somebody old lady like living on the top of a Hill just giving out money, because I see this a lot with people in their twenties, where it's like, if I work X amount of hard, I will receive why amount of reward. And I always think about it in the context of people studying for exams, right, very common thing that you do during this decade. Someone could study the exact same amount of hours of you as you have the exact same content and get a completely different grade, could understand it completely differently, and sometimes like.

I also a very equal quote, which is the opposite of anxiety is trust, and I think that also comes into play here where you can be thrown like the most awful, terrible circumstances, but if you trust that you are going to make it through, maybe if you trust that you are capable of finding a route out, of finding your way back to a life that you really love and that you want, you will make it through. Most of the time, Like self trust is just such like I don't know, it's just such an antidote to so much. It's an antidote to imposter syndrome. It's an antidote to a lot of anxiety. And I really want to link back to what you were saying before of you know, God, the universe is somebody old lady like living on the top of a Hill just giving out money, because I see this a lot with people in their twenties, where it's like, if I work X amount of hard, I will receive why amount of reward. And I always think about it in the context of people studying for exams, right, very common thing that you do during this decade. Someone could study the exact same amount of hours of you as you have the exact same content and get a completely different grade, could understand it completely differently, and sometimes like.

Luck, somebody can study a lot less than you and.

Luck, somebody can study a lot less than you and.

Yeah, exactly exactly, and it's like, okay, so we all think that it's just hard work, and it was actually something I had to really accept where I was like, it's okay for a bit of this to be luck.

Yeah, exactly exactly, and it's like, okay, so we all think that it's just hard work, and it was actually something I had to really accept where I was like, it's okay for a bit of this to be luck.

Like it's actually okay, sure.

Like it's actually okay, sure.

Yeah, And I kept worrying. I'd be like, well, luck isn't luck isn't promised. So if my life has been given to me by luck, like as soon as the tables turn, I could not have my life anymore. So I'm going to use hard work as an insurance. And eventually you have to kind of let that go because it makes you feel like every single thing that you do is tied to how much you want it and how many hours you're willing to put into it, which is not true.

Yeah, And I kept worrying. I'd be like, well, luck isn't luck isn't promised. So if my life has been given to me by luck, like as soon as the tables turn, I could not have my life anymore. So I'm going to use hard work as an insurance. And eventually you have to kind of let that go because it makes you feel like every single thing that you do is tied to how much you want it and how many hours you're willing to put into it, which is not true.

It's just simply not It's all based on the devastating wish that life would be fair and sensible, and there's very little evidence that I have seen to support that it is either of those things.

It's just simply not It's all based on the devastating wish that life would be fair and sensible, and there's very little evidence that I have seen to support that it is either of those things.

But it is once again interesting.

But it is once again interesting.

The batty old lady who lives on the top of the hill, who's half seen aisle and holds all sorts of power and forgets your name, like promises you in inheritance and then that's.

The batty old lady who lives on the top of the hill, who's half seen aisle and holds all sorts of power and forgets your name, like promises you in inheritance and then that's.

Name, yeah, is like I already gave it to that Poste'm.

Name, yeah, is like I already gave it to that Poste'm.

Sorry, give it to the gardener, like you know, like wait, but I'm your grandchild.

Sorry, give it to the gardener, like you know, like wait, but I'm your grandchild.

Well are you? You know? Like it's it's so.

Well are you? You know? Like it's it's so.

And this is why I think that the manifestation theology is a bit dangerous. This idea you made a sort of joke about vision boards, and vision boards can be really sweet. And there is something about that. There is a it's not that you're helpless, there is a there's a push and a pull. There's a part that you have control over and there's a part that you don't. And the way I describe it in neat prey love. It's like a circus trained circus acrobat riding on two horses at the same time, you know, like one foot on two horses around a ring. And the play that I feel in my own life between my own will and what can only be called destiny or fate is I've only got a foot on one of those horses, you know, and the other one it looks like it's running right alongside me.

And this is why I think that the manifestation theology is a bit dangerous. This idea you made a sort of joke about vision boards, and vision boards can be really sweet. And there is something about that. There is a it's not that you're helpless, there is a there's a push and a pull. There's a part that you have control over and there's a part that you don't. And the way I describe it in neat prey love. It's like a circus trained circus acrobat riding on two horses at the same time, you know, like one foot on two horses around a ring. And the play that I feel in my own life between my own will and what can only be called destiny or fate is I've only got a foot on one of those horses, you know, and the other one it looks like it's running right alongside me.

But at any moment, anything could.

But at any moment, anything could.

Happen, you know, like anything could happen that changes the game, and how do we hold our equanimity? And they're both running at full speed, by the way, you know, And the really good acrobats are the ones who are just like and they're sparking, and there's sparkly leotard with.

Happen, you know, like anything could happen that changes the game, and how do we hold our equanimity? And they're both running at full speed, by the way, you know, And the really good acrobats are the ones who are just like and they're sparking, and there's sparkly leotard with.

A big smile like and a plume of like here we are, We're on the ride, you know.

A big smile like and a plume of like here we are, We're on the ride, you know.

So it's yeah, but there's there is no promised outcome. The outcome is not promised. You're entitled to the labor, but you're not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And if, gosh, if there's one thing that could make you happier than anything else, it would be to release any sense of entitlement to anything, because the most depressed, outraged and anxious that I have been in my life has been when I didn't get what I want and I had to suffer through some sort of a tantrum about it for however amount of time until I surrendered too. You're not You ain't getting it.

So it's yeah, but there's there is no promised outcome. The outcome is not promised. You're entitled to the labor, but you're not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And if, gosh, if there's one thing that could make you happier than anything else, it would be to release any sense of entitlement to anything, because the most depressed, outraged and anxious that I have been in my life has been when I didn't get what I want and I had to suffer through some sort of a tantrum about it for however amount of time until I surrendered too. You're not You ain't getting it.

Don't matter how much you want it, you ate.

Don't matter how much you want it, you ate.

You cannot make that person love you. You cannot make that person love you. You cannot change the past, you cannot change people's opinions of it.

You cannot make that person love you. You cannot make that person love you. You cannot change the past, you cannot change people's opinions of it.

You can't.

You can't.

And so I think the reason I'm a lot more serene in my fifties than I was in my twenties was because in my twenties I was still pretty sure I could get what I wanted if I tried hard enough and worked hard enough or manipulated enough, and I couldn't.

And so I think the reason I'm a lot more serene in my fifties than I was in my twenties was because in my twenties I was still pretty sure I could get what I wanted if I tried hard enough and worked hard enough or manipulated enough, and I couldn't.

Yeah, that's a lesson. That's a lesson in that we all learn eventually. And I always think about it, as have you seen the Harry Potter films?

Yeah, that's a lesson. That's a lesson in that we all learn eventually. And I always think about it, as have you seen the Harry Potter films?

Yep? Of course, do I not have eyes?

Yep? Of course, do I not have eyes?

Sometimes if you've got to ask, because there'll be people who are like what No. I always think about this scene. It must be in the first movie where they're going to find the Philosopher's stone, and they fall into this pit of vines that like choke them and like just tightening, and every time they like struggle against it and they move, it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And it must be like COMIONI or someone realizes, like if I just relax, they'll let me go, They'll let me go, and I will just fall straight through. And it is such a hard thing to do because naturally you want a good life and you want to be happy, and you want to find love, and you want to feel like you're here for a reason. Obviously, like you can't know what that is. So sometimes you do just have to do the opposite of what every single instinct in your body is telling you to do, and that is to just relax. And I think that there is a difference between like survivor like survival instincts and an instinct for living. And I think our living instinct and our life is instinct is to relax and is to just have a little bit more fun. But we're confusing that with our survival instincts, which are like no run produced like hit scream somewhere along the way, like those have gotten crossed, and so now we just feel a lot more panicked about everything, and we think that small things are going to cost us our life, you know, not having a job that we love, not having people like us, like all these things are a lot more going to be a lot more costly than they actually are. That's just how I see it. And when I relaxed into that, it felt a lot better. I want to ask you about a bit of a turning point in your career and in your life, and it was the success of E Prey Love. Julia Roberts starred you in a movie. That's probably something that only three or four people can say. But what happened afterwards? You know, you wrote this book, it was it's beautiful, it became incredibly popular. How did you manage or deal with the expectations that you may be experienced for your next book or for after that, the initial fame and maybe past.

Sometimes if you've got to ask, because there'll be people who are like what No. I always think about this scene. It must be in the first movie where they're going to find the Philosopher's stone, and they fall into this pit of vines that like choke them and like just tightening, and every time they like struggle against it and they move, it just gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And it must be like COMIONI or someone realizes, like if I just relax, they'll let me go, They'll let me go, and I will just fall straight through. And it is such a hard thing to do because naturally you want a good life and you want to be happy, and you want to find love, and you want to feel like you're here for a reason. Obviously, like you can't know what that is. So sometimes you do just have to do the opposite of what every single instinct in your body is telling you to do, and that is to just relax. And I think that there is a difference between like survivor like survival instincts and an instinct for living. And I think our living instinct and our life is instinct is to relax and is to just have a little bit more fun. But we're confusing that with our survival instincts, which are like no run produced like hit scream somewhere along the way, like those have gotten crossed, and so now we just feel a lot more panicked about everything, and we think that small things are going to cost us our life, you know, not having a job that we love, not having people like us, like all these things are a lot more going to be a lot more costly than they actually are. That's just how I see it. And when I relaxed into that, it felt a lot better. I want to ask you about a bit of a turning point in your career and in your life, and it was the success of E Prey Love. Julia Roberts starred you in a movie. That's probably something that only three or four people can say. But what happened afterwards? You know, you wrote this book, it was it's beautiful, it became incredibly popular. How did you manage or deal with the expectations that you may be experienced for your next book or for after that, the initial fame and maybe past.

Oh what a great question.

Oh what a great question.

So do you know I mean, I'm talking like I know anything about mathematics, but do you know the principle of absolute value?

So do you know I mean, I'm talking like I know anything about mathematics, but do you know the principle of absolute value?

I'm going to just throw it out there and explain it.

I'm going to just throw it out there and explain it.

But like, imagine that you're looking at a number line, and there's a zero in the middle, and then the positive numbers go out in one direction, positive one through ten, and then the negative numbers go out in the other direction, negative one through ten.

But like, imagine that you're looking at a number line, and there's a zero in the middle, and then the positive numbers go out in one direction, positive one through ten, and then the negative numbers go out in the other direction, negative one through ten.

Right.

Right.

So pick a number three, right, So there's a positive number three and there's a negative number three right on that line. But they share the same absolute value. So the absolute value means the distance from zero. So there's a zero in our emotional life, which I would describe as just sort of like are like stability, constancy, a sense of belonging, a sense of balance. That's zero, that's point zero, right, And then there are these horrible things that happen on the negative side of the scale, and there use wonderful things that happen on the positive side of the scale. Here's where things can get really confusing. Sometimes it makes sense that when a horrible thing happens, a divorce or an illness, or a death, or a terrible breakup or massive disappointment or a natural disaster, it makes sense that you would be really shook by it. But it doesn't make sense that you would be equally shook when a wonderful thing happens. Because we're trained to think that the wonderful. Things are great, But to your nervous system, there's an absolute value of distance from zero. If zero is what I'm used to, what I am accustomed to, and what I am normal to, and a really big in the positive direction, a number ten. So Eppray loves a number ten on that. It's like you just wrote I heard the other day that it's like the second best selling memoir of all time. You know, it's like, yeah, so famous, Like yeah, Julia Roberts, you're a millionaire now Julia Roberts is playing you in a movie.

So pick a number three, right, So there's a positive number three and there's a negative number three right on that line. But they share the same absolute value. So the absolute value means the distance from zero. So there's a zero in our emotional life, which I would describe as just sort of like are like stability, constancy, a sense of belonging, a sense of balance. That's zero, that's point zero, right, And then there are these horrible things that happen on the negative side of the scale, and there use wonderful things that happen on the positive side of the scale. Here's where things can get really confusing. Sometimes it makes sense that when a horrible thing happens, a divorce or an illness, or a death, or a terrible breakup or massive disappointment or a natural disaster, it makes sense that you would be really shook by it. But it doesn't make sense that you would be equally shook when a wonderful thing happens. Because we're trained to think that the wonderful. Things are great, But to your nervous system, there's an absolute value of distance from zero. If zero is what I'm used to, what I am accustomed to, and what I am normal to, and a really big in the positive direction, a number ten. So Eppray loves a number ten on that. It's like you just wrote I heard the other day that it's like the second best selling memoir of all time. You know, it's like, yeah, so famous, Like yeah, Julia Roberts, you're a millionaire now Julia Roberts is playing you in a movie.

You're a famous.

You're a famous.

You never have to get a job again, you know, like, yeah, all this stuff has happened. This is a ten, this is a plus ten. The absolute value is it's ten steps from zero, which has the same impact on my nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a death in the family, because it has taken me so far away from what I thought was normal. Right, So it's really important to understand and to expect in life that really good news things can also shake you to the core because it's a long long way away from normal. So what happened was I had to get back to neutral. I had to get back to zero. And the only way that I could do that was that I took a year off, almost a year off from doing anything in public, and I started a garden. I literally had to get back. I had to get on my knees in the ground because I felt so ungrounded.

You never have to get a job again, you know, like, yeah, all this stuff has happened. This is a ten, this is a plus ten. The absolute value is it's ten steps from zero, which has the same impact on my nervous system as if there was an earthquake or a death in the family, because it has taken me so far away from what I thought was normal. Right, So it's really important to understand and to expect in life that really good news things can also shake you to the core because it's a long long way away from normal. So what happened was I had to get back to neutral. I had to get back to zero. And the only way that I could do that was that I took a year off, almost a year off from doing anything in public, and I started a garden. I literally had to get back. I had to get on my knees in the ground because I felt so ungrounded.

People were telling me all sorts of things.

People were telling me all sorts of things.

About who I was and what I was and what my cultural importance was, and so I just had to get down to the level of the earth and I gardened for a year. I didn't do any speaking events, I didn't teach, I didn't write anything, and I grew vegetables.

About who I was and what I was and what my cultural importance was, and so I just had to get down to the level of the earth and I gardened for a year. I didn't do any speaking events, I didn't teach, I didn't write anything, and I grew vegetables.

That's how I got over it.

That's how I got over it.

And after a year in the garden, I remember it was like wintertime and I was raking up the leaves and composting things, you know, calloused hands and like just dirty clothes is what did it? And I was and then I heard in my head the first line to the next book. It was like it's like the leaves were falling, and like a leaf fell into my mind and it was the first line to the next book. And I was like, Okay, I think I'm ready to write again. So you have to whether you've had a hugely positive massively fantastic, big new crazy thing happened in your life, or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new crazy thing in your life. You've got to learn how to ground, and it's very hard to do in this day and age, especially with the constant distractions of everything that's on your phone. But you've got to kind of get like low to the earth and like go to the beach and go on the ocean, like it's you have to get kind of animal, you know. It's like I've got to get with elemental back down to the waters like fire and water and earth, because and you have to remember the sort of element of yourself rather than all the kind of crazy information that people are telling you about you.

And after a year in the garden, I remember it was like wintertime and I was raking up the leaves and composting things, you know, calloused hands and like just dirty clothes is what did it? And I was and then I heard in my head the first line to the next book. It was like it's like the leaves were falling, and like a leaf fell into my mind and it was the first line to the next book. And I was like, Okay, I think I'm ready to write again. So you have to whether you've had a hugely positive massively fantastic, big new crazy thing happened in your life, or a hugely negative, massively horrible, big new crazy thing in your life. You've got to learn how to ground, and it's very hard to do in this day and age, especially with the constant distractions of everything that's on your phone. But you've got to kind of get like low to the earth and like go to the beach and go on the ocean, like it's you have to get kind of animal, you know. It's like I've got to get with elemental back down to the waters like fire and water and earth, because and you have to remember the sort of element of yourself rather than all the kind of crazy information that people are telling you about you.

I remember when the Psychle Oldivia twenties was becoming really really popular and it was going viral and it was just thousands of people listening to it all the time. I remember never being more miserable and like crying constantly. I would call my partner Tom, and I would call my mom and my dad and just be like, this is gonna get taken away from me. How do I adjust to this? And I remember exactly the moment when I was like I'm gonna be okay. And I went back to where I grew up, which is Crumbin in Queensland. It's paradise on Earth. And I went on this hike and I found a mango tree that had dropped all these exactly. And it's so funny you were saying that because I literally remember picking up a mango and like I didn't have a knife or fork, and I just like ripped it open with my hands and like was eating it. And I was like, oh my god, I'll always have this, Like I can come and find this mango tree if anything terrible happens.

I remember when the Psychle Oldivia twenties was becoming really really popular and it was going viral and it was just thousands of people listening to it all the time. I remember never being more miserable and like crying constantly. I would call my partner Tom, and I would call my mom and my dad and just be like, this is gonna get taken away from me. How do I adjust to this? And I remember exactly the moment when I was like I'm gonna be okay. And I went back to where I grew up, which is Crumbin in Queensland. It's paradise on Earth. And I went on this hike and I found a mango tree that had dropped all these exactly. And it's so funny you were saying that because I literally remember picking up a mango and like I didn't have a knife or fork, and I just like ripped it open with my hands and like was eating it. And I was like, oh my god, I'll always have this, Like I can come and find this mango tree if anything terrible happens.

And yeah, Earth, yeah exactly, you belong What is Mary Oliver has a poem your part in the belonging of things?

And yeah, Earth, yeah exactly, you belong What is Mary Oliver has a poem your part in the belonging of things?

Yes, yeah, great.

Yes, yeah, great.

Great success and great failure can lose your sense of belonging. But if you get close to nature, you'll remember that you belong here.

Great success and great failure can lose your sense of belonging. But if you get close to nature, you'll remember that you belong here.

I love that story.

I love that story.

It was amazing. I still remember the taste of that mango like it's very vivid. But and I went back actually recently in the mango tree wasn't there, so I guess it just appeared when I needed it. It's actually something you may not know, is that to celebrity name drop in here, Taylor Swift actually referred one of your Ted talks. Do you know this?

It was amazing. I still remember the taste of that mango like it's very vivid. But and I went back actually recently in the mango tree wasn't there, so I guess it just appeared when I needed it. It's actually something you may not know, is that to celebrity name drop in here, Taylor Swift actually referred one of your Ted talks. Do you know this?

I did hear the head.

I did hear the head.

You do know this, okay? And I feel like what was so interesting was she was saying referencing you and her creative process and being like the drive to keep creating even when people hate what I've done, even when I've failed, even when I've you know, not had the success that I wanted. I just have to create. And I always like that analogy as well, like not to not that anyone's theory about how they should live their life requires proof, but you know, seeing that her creative processes continue to evolve and allowed her great success, I feel like she's kind of onto something. And I mean, you know that's came from you. So I think when it comes to like imposters in him and feeling like we're going to fail because we've had some success, or feeling like we need to now do things for other people, true creatives really understand that again, it's not just a job, it's not a profession. It's a calling. And whether you have zero readers, zero listeners, zero viewers, or a million, hopefully like what you're creating will be the same. But within that journey, how have you dealt with failure? I know you talked about you had a book canceled. I don't even know what that means. To be completely honest, neither happened.