The Next Chapter with Prims. Rippabad is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey Everybody, it's prim Welcome to the Next Chapter. Presented by Baron Davis and Slick Studios. We continue our best of series as we re air some of our greatest episodes right here on the next Chapter, and today we get to hear from former m b A and Stanford basketball player Josh Childress. I chose to re air this episode because of how moving and revealing this interview was about the unique challenges professional athletes face just across their entire careers. The money, the fame, the spotlight, being tall and or physically dominant, all the things society says is really important life and gives us so called value that things people often think would help solve all their problems. These factors I've learned are actually at the root of many of the most significant problems professional athletes experien rains and how some of these factors the money, the fame, spotlight, et cetera. How some of these can actually potentially trigger some of the mental health issues and symptoms or even disorders that athletes endure. And for Josh, it was social anxiety prompted by some of the performance issues he experienced and also being in the spotlight after having signed the largest contract in European basketball history at that time. And this interview marked the first time he ever had talked about his mental health issues publicly, and I so appreciate him not only sharing his story to help others, but trusting me and this show to know that we would at least try to handle his story with care. So a big, warm thank you once again to Josh for opening up and sharing his amazing journey. So here is my interview with Josh which we recorded in San Francisco back in twenty nineteen. Ultimate transition is transitioning out identity. Welcome to the next chapter with Prims Rippat. By that point, men, today I was gone. My confidence was shot, you know the matter. I tried every trigger in the book, and by that time the book and by that time the first time we've ever sharing this, but I really develop some strong anxiety shoes social anxiety, specifically social anxiety. Hey, guys, welcome to the next chapter. I'm your host, Prims RiPP A Pat This week's guest is a former top ten draft pick in Stanford graduate who, after spending his first four seasons in the NBA with the Atlanta Hawks, shocked a lot of people when he left and signed a three year, twenty million dollar deal to play overseas with the Greek Olympiacos. That deal, he signed in two thousand eight, marked the largest contract in European basketball history at the time. The player I'm talking about it is Josh Childress children Such. Josh was born and raised in the what he calls nice and quiet parts of Compton, California, the city, he says, gets a bad rap and is often misrepresented by the media. But the support of his parents and two much older brothers, Children's found his way out of Compton, California, as he became a mcdonnald It's All American in high school and an a P First Team All American in college. Now, out of the twenty plus athletes and experts I interview in this initial phase of the show, Josh is one of the few guests I had absolutely no relationship with prior to sitting down with him. My buddy Black Tray, who some of you may know from various athletic and count the Dings podcasts, also grew up playing ball and Compton, and he was a one that suggested I reach out to children's Black Tray is one of those guys you can just trust because he knows good people and good stories. So I took his advice in cold called Josh or cold d M him, I should say hey on Twitter and we immediately connected. Indeed, it's the power of social media. Anyways, I flew out to California last October so we could do this in person, and we sat down for a few good hours at the athletics headquarters is in downtown San Francisco. Over the course of this conversation, Josh opens up about a number of personal things, including the real story on why he left Atlanta Hawks, the dark side of being the highest paid basketball player in the world outside the NBA, and his own personal struggles with mental health. My panic attack and had my episode. I was out there on the floor. We had just come out of the time out. I was about to check back in. Over the last couple of years, we've seen a number of NBA players, guys like Kevin Love, dMar De Rosen, and Royce White share their issues with anxiety and depression, and Josh is taking a courageous step forward to contribute to that conversation. This marks the first time he's speaking publicly about his own battles with social anxiety. I really hope you enjoyed this in depth conversation with him. So without further ado, let's get to it, ladies and gentlemen, Josh Malik Childress, Hi, Josh, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you making the our drive here Athletic Headquarters. So I I know you like shoes and kits, and I don't you know, because this is a super casual show and I want to give athletes and whoever come on like the freedom to feel comfortable. And honestly, I'm a little selfish. I just want to feel comfortable as well. But you were dressed so nicely today. You mentioned that you got a haircut because you said that you went to the Stanford game last night and people weren't recognize you, because yeah, I saw. I actually saw my old coach, Mike mcgomer. He was commentating the game and I walked up and he's like, he paused, you know, and and he didn't really recognize that. I got the glasses, you know. I cut my hair. Um, I cut my hair product two months ago but oh my gosh, you know it's it's a it was time, It was time. I mean, nothing has been with you for since junior year in high school. High school, yeah about the end. And I've had obviously varying lins in my hair, but it's been a fro for a long time. Oh my god, twenty years. Crazy when you think about it that way. I'm glad I'm catching you at this time because as a female who has longish hair or like that is a huge part of your identity. It comes with you, it defines you. So you must be going through some serious changes for you. Not the voice psycho houses, but I mean, anyway, I amology so that you understand, you understand, and for um no, you know, I was. I was going through this period so I would live overseas for a while. Uh and you know, finding somebody to do your hair overseas is always a challenge. And I went through this period. I was wearing twists a lot, and I was going between the twists and the frow, and my hair just became so long, like it was it might might have been as long as yours. It was it was you couldn't tell in the frow. But when I got it done, it was it was long, and so this in between period it just looked crazy and it was just hard to manage, hard to keep up. So over the probably the last six or so month, I was like, I need to cut it, and I've just been looking at like I was on Google all the time looking up haircuts and different styles and this and that, and I finally just did it. So I think about my experience when I when I graduated from college and I first got into television, and so that was like what sixteen years ago. But at the time, they were like, you're gonna have to change your name. It's too ethnic, people aren't going to remember it. You're going to change your last name. Your hair is too long, it's too feminists, to saxy and sloppy. And they were telling me all these things that you're telling me not to be me. I'm like, that sounds really stupid. So I actually up to my long hair out of almost like rebellion, just to see how far I could go to keep it, and I ended up keeping it for ten plus years while as I kept my my full name. So I guess you will, right, because yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't. I mean, Sonny, people want you to conform to what is on TV, you know, and what other people look like. And it's like, I mean, you you embrace that. And I think that that's we're seeing that at a macro level in the country a bit. But that's a whole other conversation. I don't consider myself in any way a trailblazer. I think I was just being obnoxiously stubborn. Um, but it does take people to put their foot down and say, you know what what I'm doing is okay. I feel like you're a little bit like that. I know you've kind of defined yourself as somebody who thinks outside the box and it's wired differently. Um, do you still consider that about yourself? Uh, to an extent. I mean, I wouldn't say I think outside of that box. I'm just I'm stubborn to write and I have my touch points that you know, I make sure that I focus on, and um, you know, I like to embrace who I am, and uh, you know, I feel very strongly about certain things, and you know, I'm okay with you having a different opinion. Uh, you know, And I think that that's what makes um, you know, people great, is you know the ability to interact and and you know dialogue on different opinions and and you know different topics without trying to force each other's views on on somebody else. So, of what I know of you, you you seem like somebody who is strong in that sense of I really really want to be me. Um for myself. You know, for example, I don't think I'm I don't think I actually have always had the confidence to do that like now I do at thirty eight years old. When I was younger, I was an absolute people pleaser and I was a perfectionist. But it seems at a very young age you were you always kind of had that that thread. I guess that the perfect example of that would be when I made my college decision. My two choices came down to Stanford in Kansas. Roy Williams was a coach at Kansas at the time. You know, he really did a great job of recruiting not only me, but my family, my my brothers, my older brothers, and my mom loved him, and I mean I thought he was great. Obviously, he's a Hall of Fame coach and an amazing person. But um, you know, when I told my mom, I was going to choose Kansas. She started crying. I mean Stanford, she started crying. Yeah, like crying tears. Yeah, you know, and that was really hard on me. Um. But at the same time, I had to do what was best for me. I just felt that Stanford was a better choice for me. And you know, it's it's hard to make that decision and deal with it at the age of seventeen, but I did. And you know, obviously, you know, it worked out to make a decision that is friend considering the neighborhood in the area that you came from Compton, but also go against the wishes of your family, especially Mama, like no one wants that's a mata bear. That must have been really challenging. One of the biggest things that attracted me to Stanford was the guys that I would be around, my teammates, uh and I felt comfortable in that environment with him, you know, just a natural fit with those guys and that's who you spend you know, nine percent of your time with, as you know. So that was something that I was really kind of honed in on. Had nothing to do with, you know, Stanford as a university, so it was less about the academics and none of that stuff. It was just more about fit. So what was your mom like was she stripped her few because of the circumstances, things that you may or may not be exposed to, or she just never really had to tell me that you learn it right. And my mom actually worked nights, so you know, that was on me to just go go to the gym, you know, get my workout here and get my shots up, and then come home and finish my homework. Now I had certain things I had to make sure my homework was done, you know, and all that stuff, so I didn't really have time to you know, go and run the streets if you will know what did I want to What are your first memories and in terms of your first exposure to sports watching my older brothers play. Yeah, I play basketball at the park and Enterprise Park as the name of the park. Um so, yeah, I just go up there and Washington playing like men's leaves games and you know, a little tournaments and things like that. I was probably you know, six or seven. And when did you start playing? Right around the same time, Um, so I'd be on the other side of the gym. And did you play any other sports. You're volleyble. Try I try to play You're so tall, you're you're just meant to be a basket ball. I know you played volleyball. You're very it sounds like you're very volleyball. My senior high school, yeah, I I you know, basketball going through the a US circuit for all those years, and you know, I, um, I was fortunate not to make the McDonald's game, and I just say, just try something else, like something where I'm not like worried about scouts looking at me and recruiting. And the volleyball coach mentioned like he could help me with my vertical, which which Hooper doesn't want to increase vertical, right, So so I just tried it for my senior year and ended up doing all. Right. What other sports did you try? I try soccer? Football, UM, baseball? How old I was trash at all over the middle school, high school, when you're middle school, elementary, middle school. I realized I wasn't very good at any of those. I cut that pretty quickly. At what point did you realize that basketball could be a future for you. It was after my sophomore year high school. I went to the night Yell American Camp and had a really good camp and that kind of just put me on the national scene for recruiting, and you know, from there it was at the very minium I was going to get a college scholarship. I never really like looked at, you know, the NBA as a reality until my junior year college. I kind of just just tried to, you know, focus in on, you know, the task at hand, get to college. And when I was in college, you know how my team win, and then you know, my brothers started to get hitting up from agents and stuff like that, and that's when I started to think about the NBA. I find it so fat at this point, I've interviewed a number of athletes, and I find it really interesting that some of you guys don't even think about playing at the professional level until much later in life, which is very different than today's generation where people are where kids are like, I'm going to get a scholarship and I'm going to play professionally, and they're saying that that sex ye at all. I wanted to be a doctor when I was a kid, so like the I mean, you know who, I enjoyed who, but you know, there was there was nobody that I knew that a professionally, so I didn't have like a person that I can last you on too and say I want to beat him? Did you? So my mom was in the medical field, not a doctor, but um, you know, I just I saw that and then um, I read a book about being Carson at the time, and I just thought to do it was so cool that you know, African American, and I performed you know, the Siamese twin. I think it was it was the brain. I'm trying to blank on what you call it now, but he separated to Siamese twins via via the brain, and it was I thought it was really cool. So I wanted to be like him. So when did you start entertaining options? And I'm really looking at schools year and it's it's funny because my junior year was probably my worst year in high school from a basketball perspective. I think that, you know, the the influx of attention UM kind of impacted that a bit, uh, and I just didn't know how to handle it. Um. You know, still obviously put up good numbers and all stuff, but I just if I'm thinking back to you know what it was that was probably my worst year of of high school from a best perspective and so, um, but I was looking in I was, you know, talking talking to when my brothers talking about my friends. You know, we all tried to have a pack to go somewhere together. Um, you know, and and you know we talked to that for a while. But you know that was when it became real. Yeah, because there was a huge spotlight on you getting all of that attention and also experiencing a dip in your performance. Did that impact anything later in life? Did that teach you a lesson? Did you how did you learn from that? I didn't, And I've had I've had situations since where you know, I didn't um responding the way that I think I could have. But yeah, I mean it's it's interesting just you know when you break it down mentally and you think about, you know, I guess how you could have done things differently, what caused you to do that or think that way? You know. So in high school that junior year after that, I realized that that wasn't the year that I'd like to have. Uh, And you know, I doubled down on my training and my focus and you know, really tried to kind of like narrow my focus towards you know, have a great senior year, you know, win a championship, and you know, choose my my university that I'm going to. My senior year was was great and I wasn't able to win the championship. I lost in the in the final, but you know, I felt like that was a good send off for me. Um. But it sounds like you made the adjustments because you're a really good senior year. So then why do you say that you didn't handle it or do you didn't learn from it? Fast forward to my first year in Greece. My first year over there, Like you know, I signed the largest contract in European basketball history. Uh, and the amount of attention that I got was overwhelming. And I really struggled that year on the court, struggled off the court, uh, and kind of became a reclusive. You well, I just stayed in my house and you know, played I just amazing house, you know, not too far from the beach in Athens, and I was in the house all day. I just I couldn't deal with the scrutiny of the pressure. That summer came back, I doubled down on my training, really focused in on everything and had a much better year in my second year over there, you know, had I learned kind of how to approach that the first year, you know, I may have felt a bit better about, you know, my time in Europe. Man. I think it's it's so easy to look back and say, well, I could have handled it better. But I mean, you made the adjustments at seventeen years old, and then by the time you went to Racy or how old you're in your mid twenty, that's still young, you know, and most people don't make those adjustments within a year. How did you know that was the right decision for you to go to Stanford? From a social perspective, I knew when I went on my visit to Kansas, Um, you know, it was significant amount of like drinking party and the college life, right, And I don't drink, and I've never drink in my life, really, I have not. And I had an amazing time at Stanford on my visit there, and was not offered a sip of alcohol. And I went on my fiber cring art everybody offered me everything. It was just it was just a field. And I mean, obviously that was a major, a major impact on the decision. But you know, I had a great time. It was you know, I laughed when I ever laughed before in my life, and you know, just a great group of people. Alcohol wasn't part of it, you know. And so um, that was a big one. And then from a from a basketball perspective, I knew that I'd have the opportunity to grow into who I could become at Stanford a bit a bit better. Um. You know, Kansas is a great program and Roy is a great coach. But year after year they're getting two and three mcgonal's all Americans, and you know, you're either performing or not. And if you're not, you know, you can get pushed down that bench. And not that I didn't I like competition, but at the same time, you want to I want to be able to play and put myself in a position, you know, to better myself. And you know that was that was it. Did you have any challenges in the transition to to Stanford, because you know, being a Division one student athlete, especially at a highly academic institution, is it's not easy for me. It wasn't And and coach Montgomery was very much of the mindset that you're smart enough to get in here smart enough to figure it out. So there was not a ton of you know, we didn't have study hall, we didn't have you know, stuff that a lot of the other There was no babysitting, so you got to just figure things out. And you know that takes an adjustment period. You know, me coming from where I came from from, you know, in the city, you know, Palo Alto, which isn't exactly you know, the most ethnically diverse, you know, placed in the country I was. It was a bit of a culture shock there, but you know, you make it work. That's fun about transitions, and that's why I created this show, is because I feel like transitions are the hardest thing in life, because it means having to adjus and going from the unknown to something that's really unfamiliar. I went to a high school where, um, you know, I always did pretty well academically, and you know, I could I could kind of finagle my way through getting good grades. I remember my first class at Stanford, like we did a did like a book analysis. They had these abstract ideas and they were you know, picking apart different words and the meanings, and it's like I just read the story, you know what I mean. And that was like a big wake up call, just like I gotta get a I gotta figure this out because I don't know what the heck I'm doing here. But yeah, that and then you know the schedule of you know, being a college athlete. You know and people you know they say student athlete but is flipped and you know that too. You know, your athletes students six am waights or seven am weights, and you know, practice and film and all that stuff while trying to you know balance you know, class and sleep and social life and all that. So um, yeah, at first, at first quarter, the first two quarters was tough. I thought my struggles in college as a student athlete were just my own. And to hear from so many other athletes who played a much higher level than I did, and to hear people saying they almost quit, they almost walked out, they almost transferred a coach, they had an issue with a coach. A coach told him that I don't want you. If I were um, the original coach, I wouldn't have recruited you. And said that to an athlete before he even stepped foot on on campus. You know, did you have any of those moments or where was the freshman or your your toughest. I started out my freshman year doing well and then you know, for whatever reason, coach decided this to you know, kind of messed with my playing time a bit. You know that was difficult, right, You go from being the man being McDonald's all American, playing big minutes as a freshman and then not what happened? What did I do? You know? And going through that process was tough. Coach is a brutal man. I mean, coaches a brutal like. I often think how many how many careers were ruined because of a coach? Probably a ton You know, they know that they control your destiny, and some guys just take advantage of that. You went through so much stuff, a lot of your like powerful transitionings, so much stuff happened in the NBA and knowing a little bit more about like why you decided to go to Stanford and feeling safe in that community, and now you're you go to the n B A at like it's got to feel like the wild wild West. Everybody's balling, everybody is competing, everybody's drinking, everybody's doing all sorts of crazy stuff. I mean, what was that So you leave after three years from Stanford, So what was that transition? Like? Fun? It was? It was fun, it was. It wasn't overwhelming. It was overwhelming early, um, just because of the coach that I had, and not saying it in a negative way. He was just old school coach, Mike Woodson. He came from Indiana, you know, under the Bobby Night regime and then he coached in the league under Larry Brown, and so you know, it was very much a a a vibe in the locker room and she in the organization and like you know, rookies pay their dues and so I remember to this day at times where you know, all the veteran guys would have the day off and you know it would be the four four rookies, four or five rookies, and we've been there running three man, we've you know this all the drills that you would run with a full squad. So this is supposed to be your day off during the week. This was their day off. It wasn't. You just didn't get a day off week. We didn't get a ten of days off. You know, it was just rookies paid to dues and you know, rookies got to learn. You don't have to say that, but I'll say it. That's bad. That was. That was, That was. That was our rookie year. And so myself, Josh Smith, um Royal Ivy, Dante Smith, Um, we just we roll with it, you know, and we just kept grinding and um, you know, we obviously got better over the year, but that was our introduction practice. Yeah, we did you trade fifty. Yeah, it was fun. It was a fun, fun initial year. We were terrible as a team. I think wanted like thirteen games, which was like tied a record for one of the worst records in the league. Um, but that's where I met Al the moment I knew Al was a good dude. So we had just had a I mean, we lost in in Indiana and it was a bad loss, and um, we had another veteran on the team that was mad that you know, coach Woodson has had decided to play the rookies, you know, significant minutes, and so we lost. Were in the locker room, everybody's getting changed, dressed, whatever, and this guy is over in the corner just just going off about how terrible this is and he should be getting playing time and yeah, yeah, yeah, and Al stood up butt naked and just started going in on him. You know, you should embrace him, you should, you should, you know, you should help them. That's your job to help them. That's just this, you know, and just going out the dude. So they were sitting there arguing, but to button naked, grow me. But that was a'l sticking up for us and he didn't have to, and he did. And you know, from that point on, I was like, this, this is a stand up due So you said that, you know, your your junior year in high school you had a lot of pressure and then going to Greece. But what about being draft of being a top ten draft pick? Did you feel any pressure there or were you? Okay, absolutely, out of all the moments throughout throughout your career, where did that rank, being a rookiean and being drafted what six six overall and you're the hast pick out of Stanford until this day, where did that rank in terms of feeling the pressure? Uh? Top three? Yeah, for sure? One? No, what was number one was? And what was your second one? In high school? The league might be number two? Okay, it's it's the nature of the business. But you manage it. Call like how everybody else does you go out? You have fun? You you already traveling in your you know, you just dealing. You know, you're not really like I didn't actively go seek help or anything. I was just trying to survive, trying to you know, you have good games, you have bad games. You try to hold onto the good games as much as you can. But yeah, you just try and survive and like, uh, you know I found myself you know, spending more time with family. Um, you know, but you also have your coping mechanisms like I used to shop a lot or you know what have you. I just guys deal with in different ways. Everybody. Everybody has a coping mechanism and it always pressure, always manifests itself in some way. This is not characteristic of athletes or anyway, Like across the board, if you were listening right now and you have something that you're dealing with, is manifesting somehow absolutely Okay, first time having money to like you know that that definitely added to it. But um yeah that going out and and just just partying and you know all that stuff. But you didn't drink or you don't so you would go out and party still and just not yeah, just not drinking. Another part of that too, is we were so bad as a team that you know, that also took some of the pressure off. We got to play, We got to play big minutes. Uh, you know, we developed a relationship, and so as a year went on, you know, I feel like I got better and better. Um, I think I finished that year. I didn't make the rookie team the rookie game, but I finished that year like third and double doubles behind, you know, two centers Like I felt like I, you know, I was on track to have finish a year strong, but have a good second year. So you're in Atlanta for about four years. Then comes the decision where you see in America, where you go overseas. I was just like, you know, doing some research, and there was this one interview that you did with with P T I, and then everybody was punting you about why you decided to go to Greece instead of staying here domestically, Why in fact did you do this? Was it purely for financial considerations or was there more to it than that? Um, it was a little more to it than that. I think that, Uh, you know, obviously, you know, the financial reasons come into play, but um, you know it came down to me, uh, um making decision based on on what I felt was right. I mean, I went through the process of restricted free agency. UM, I didn't like my options. Uh and uh, you know Atlanta was kind of dragging their feet, so UM, I made a move across. Uh looking back, why did you why did you decided to go? So, if you're familiar with the free agency process in the NBA, you have unrestricted in restricted creator. So at that time, I was a restricted free agent. Now I had spent the last four years, you know, developing myself in Atlanta into you know, a big part of that organization and that team. You know, I had been in the running for six manut of a year for a couple of years, and you know it really was I felt like a you know, a strong part of the core of the team. My fourth year. Before my my fourth year, you know, that summer, myself and Josh Smith were trying to get you know, contract extensions and the current gym. At the time, Billy Night he told me, you know, you stay healthy this fourth year, We'll make sure we get you done. You know, get your things. Two things sorted. Its cool. So you know I really locked in on um, you know, my body eating right. You know, I went and saw, I flew up to Nike. I got because I had foot issues, flew to Nike. They did announcements on my feet, got me in the right shoes. So I made sure, you know, for that year, I wouldn't have any footage, use orthotics. All that thing was perfect. Um that fourth year, Hits have a good year. We make the playoffs for the first time in like twenty years, cities rocking. You know, we take Boston to Game seven, uh in you know, in the first round. The end up in the title that year. But great year. Then they fired Billy for what reason I don't know. Um. Then a new guy comes in and essentially it's like test the market. You know, we want you to go out and you know, see what would you come back with. Now I understand that that's just part of this part of the course, right for for the Frezency process, But no, it was more so for me. It was more so a slap in the face from the perspective of you know, I've poured four years into this organization. You know, any obviously on the court. Stuff is on the court, but all the community engagement, anything you guys have ever needed of me. You know, I was always the guy that was leaned on and do like the read to achieve and like all the like all that stuff, and you know, and then now this new guy comes in that I have no relationship with, and you know, it's just like you go test the market, so it you know, it was a little bit of a a job, and so I did, and I went out and my agent, you know, we found a couple of teams that were interested in doing signing trades, one of them being San Antonio Spurs. Now outside of the Bulls as a kid, the Spurs of my next favorite team. I just loved Tim Duncan. I love how I mean, he's obviously a Hall of Fame player, but you know, he just was no nonsense and just surgical on the court, and I always admired their approach to the game. So I met with coach Pabovich. He told me what he thought, you know, kind of the the role that that he thought I would feel, and basically I was going to be there next version of Bruce Bowen, so you know, kind of develop into a you know, defender, utility player, but just you know, really kind of hone in on being a corner three point shooter and add value in other areas. But but that was a team that you know, that was the team at the time, too, right, and so, um, you know, they shot that deal down Atlanta, did they shot it down? And so then that just added more people to the fire for me. And so then out of the blue, I get this offer from Greece. My market at that time was like I was a mid level, mid level guy. So it was like a five year, thirty three million dollar deal and I was going to make that over there in three years. I took a serious look at the deal. Um, and then they flew me over. Uh and it was summer in Athens. That's not too bad, you know, and and uh so I came back. I spoke with with you know, with the Hawks. I met with one of the owners of the Hawks. You know, we talked through it. I had developed a relationship with him over the years. You know. Everybody kind of castioned me against doing it from the teeth from the Hawks, just like, but you know, I do what I do, you know. So so I told them this was the offer. There was no They didn't like speed up their process at all, but they ended. Did they not counter or did they? Did they? So at the end of the day, I didn't have a contract offer from them. So to Greece, Olympiakos, the team you're gonna be joining, says they signed you because they want to win the European League Championship. All right, you grew up dreaming of winning the NBA Championship. Can winning the euro League Championship mean to you? Josh? It means a lot. It means a lot. Now. I mean, I'm a part of that team, and uh, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to try to help us win. Um. Teams can hold a guy hostage until the market drives up, and then you have to settle for what they're gonna give you. Now, who knows what they would have given me. I don't know, but I don't know. So was that a weird dynamic with people questioning you? You made that decision and people had no idea about the story behind every Yeah? Yeah, And you know, the fans in Atlanta hated me. I mean it was like, why would you leave? We did this? But it was like I wanted to be there, you know, I really truly did um you know, And and it was more hurtful because of the fact that we went from thirteen to twenty six to you know, I think forty something or third high thirties, two playoffs, you know, in the span of four years, and you know, you fire the guy that put the team together and you you know, you bring in this new guy who for what if we hadn't been winning and we hadn't made the playoffs and doing it, Like I understand, you gotta make changes, you gotta you know, do what you gotta do. But we had a good, solid core group of guys, you know, myself, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Mike Biebe was on the squad at the time, johns Apetulia. We had a good, a good unit. Why why break that up? So that this is around two eight you when you move over to Greece and then and then a little does anyone know you go over there? You're like Michael Jordan's um. Well, A lot of the attention was more so because of the contract, you know, that was that was the big deal, and the fact that it was such a big deal here here's a guy who's you know, leaving in the prime of his career to go, you know, go overseas, and um, you know this is obviously before social media was really big, MySpace, you know, which was like the popping thing back then. But yeah, and so I've always been able to kind of, I guess still remain private to an extent. You know. I've always been a private person, and I've always um like to kind of you know, kind of standing the shadows a bit. And so, um, I'm on Front Street, Front and Center over there every day. Every night, I'm walking the streets. I got you know, my team's fans, other teams fans, you know, stopping me saying stuff. It was just for for an introverted person, it was it was really really difficult to deal with. Do you think there would have been that much of attention if your contract wasn't that big, Not at all. It was because it was the biggest contract in European history. That's gotta be a weird experience when like, your your personal information is out there. I know it happens all the time with athletes, and I think that media and fans we take it for granted, and it becomes part of the business and information, but from a personal perspective, and I like, I want to highlight this because it's something that we don't talk about. But it's like everybody knows how much you make, just the worst the absolute earth. And it's like it's a true amazing of privacy, you know. And like I guarantee you if I walked into an office and ask somebody how much money they make with their salary, you know, they look at me like I was crazy, you know, and yet you know how much I make. It's just it sucks, you know so many levels. Um. I wish it could change, but it won't. Um. But yeah, it's just something that you know is always going to be an issue for professional athletes, just because you know, it's just the the other side of it and the negativity it brings to guys. You know, it's not ideal. When you talk about the negative negativity with with guys, it sounds it sounds like you've seen it impact people. Uncertain myself too. I mean I say that to say, you know you've got family, friends, Um, you have a you know, people who try to set people up. You know, you have all those those kind of parts of it, and they're like, well, I know what you're making you know, or um, you know, I know you can pay me because you know, you know, And it's that side of it that you have to deal with as well. We simplify the athlete pro athlete experience as fame, money, resources, opportunity, playing a game. Who doesn't love that. But there's a lot of complexities that come with that this lifestyle, and a lot of it has to do with your information. Your financial information is out there and now we have people coming out of the the woodwork and reaching out to you because they know what you have. And that must be that must be disconcerting and confusing because you don't know who you can trust and right especially if you're an introvert. Yeah, and you know you're dealing with you know, financial advices would take advantage, agents would take advantage. Um, you know, family and friends who expect you to you know, foot the bill for everything. Um you know women, Um, you know, you start to go down the list, you know, potential people who are trying to get you to invest in things, and yeah, it's just it's tough to navigate, especially as as a young guy who, um, you know, it's coming into a situation where you probably didn't have much money and your your parents probably aren't you know, incredibly financially literate. Yeah, I mean to navigate that is really difficult. I've known many many guys who you know, making good money, but I live and check to check. You know, it's tough to go from you know, you're making two, three, five, ten, fifteen million dollars a year to nothing, and you know you're throw in you know, a child or you know, a baby mom, You're throwing a divorce, You're throw in you know, family friends, a couple of agent fees, a couple bad investments. You know, it could happen, and it happens all the time. But people don't understand that because they haven't lived it, you know. I mean you look at lottery winners. A large majority of them go broke within the first few years. Yeah, and you know, nobody ever says, look at those dumb lottery winners. You know, let's look at the dumb athletes. You know, how could they how could they blow that money? It's just a lack of financial literacy. And you know, we don't learn that in school. You know, we learned you know Pythagoran theorem and acute angles, you know, and like stuff that has has no impact on my everyday life. But we don't learn anything about taxes or investing or budgeting or any of that, stuffs or relationships or you know, any any of that two three of the most important things to be able to highly function in life, and yet we don't learn that in school. So when you have all of this attention and your stuff is out there, and then the wall just has to go up, and and it did because you said that you just hung out in your house all the time, because you're kind of easy to spot in a crowd, especially when I have my hair. Maybe with a haircut, you might now, but yeah, I mean you must have just wanted to to hide, and I did. I hit for a year and then part of that too, so that that same year, my my dad passed away, and that added to me hiding and to the difficulty of the season, and you know, feeling guilty and and you know, not being here when it happened and all that stuff, and so you know, it was kind of all that stuff combined really made it a difficult year, right because he was back here in the US um, but it must have been hard because you're overseas. It was it was did you was at the thought process of this must have happened for a reason, or or maybe I shouldn't have gone overseas, or it was no, I mean, it was you know, I think obviously I wish he was still here. Um. But you know, it's a part of life, and this is a part of the decisions that he made, you know, as as a man, I felt guilty from the perspective that you know, he got a car accident, but he had been drinking, and that's the reason I never never drink. Um. But part of that was, you know, had he not been drinking, maybe just get into an accident. But my guilt came from the fact that after the accident, and it was a pretty rough accident, Um, I didn't come home to see him. He had had surgery and he was, you know, on the road to recovery. So I thought, okay, great, I'll you know, I'll get home to see him when, you know, when my seasons over. And then pneumonia said in it he passed, and so then that was really really rough to deal with. Um. And so you add that with the stress of a season and all the other things that you know, you have one on. And you know, I think as athletes, people expect us to be superheroes and just play through it because we're getting paid a lot of money. But that's not the case. That was rough. And how long did it take you to get through that? I mean, what happened in the next up, because it sounds like that. It sounds like, you know, listening to as I'm putting together your your journey, that sounds like it was probably one of the toughest moments your life. Yeah it was. And that then created like a little bit of sand downward spiral. It's probably too strong with term, but um, there was definitely a little bit of a spiral. After that happened. I came home for the funeral, I spent some time here and then went back, you know, and finished the season. I came home that year, Like I mentioned before, it was not a great year for me from my basketball perspective. I came home, I like, I didn't tell anybody where I lived, you know, I kind of stayed away from everybody really and just kind of lived in the gym. And you know, it was training hard, and it was really kind of locked in on that, got over there and had a much better year. But I was also, um, incredibly angry all the time, and I was like cussing up coaches, just on edge a lot, and that's not really my personality, um, you know. And that was kind of, I think, just the manifestation of everything that had been happening, um, you know through that year. I also m or right after my dad passed, I went on like a a spending spreeing. I was of this mentality that like, you know, you can't take it with you. You know, life can be going at an instant on that end of my life. I was doing that. On the other end, I was you know, angry and just coping you know the best I could. Following that, I was like, I need to get back home. So the year finished, I ended up signing a five year deal with the Phoenix suns UM and was really excited about the chance to kind of be home, be closer to family, all that stuff. Um. And then you know, Phoenix ended up being probably like the the worst part of my career, the worst part of my career, you know. And I say that, um laughing, but it really I mean that that was the demise of my NBA career. I think, you know, I went into a situation anticipating feeding in better to a team than it I did. Um. You know, I took the opportunity and the contract and all that stuff, and it was like, okay, great, I'm home for five years. I got this, this, this, you know, and and I went to a team that, like, I just didn't fit on very well from a playing perspective like that. The team as a as a whole was great. The guys were great. You know, you have some Hall of Fame guys, but also just some quality, genuine dudes. Um. But yeah, I mean, like I've always my entire career, I was a slasher. I was you know, I get into the lane, I get fast breaks, you know, I do that. And then I get into a team where it's like, all right, cool, we need you to sit in the corner. I didn't do that very well. Then it just kind of warm on me and warm me and warm me. My confidence you know, continue to deterior rate. And that was the first time in my career I didn't play. I didn't play much. Um, I granted I was I was kind of backing up Grand Hill. It was an amazing player and from a fellow duke Duke of Looke level. But you know, I wasn't just in a situation where the first time I didn't play and I took it hard, and I just I felt like I could just never really get back over the hump mentally being there. And it was just a rough, rough two years for me. And you know, you think about everything, you know, everything that I kind of had going on, and then this happens, and yeah, I just I just couldn't recover. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a lot, because it's you know, you have that landed situation. You feel a little slighted, they're a little burned. You're like, okay, so I'm gonna go overseas. And then you've got the pressure and they have the personal situation happened and then maybe, you know, you decide to come back to America partially because of that. And then and then that's a tough basketball situation. I don't know, how did you how did you handle? How did you recover from it? Have you recovered from it? Yeah? I mean so I was here two years, uh, and then they ended up amnestying me. Um and then I signed a deal that next year in in Brooklyn. By that point, mentally, I was gone, Like I just I me and my confidence was shot, you know, no matter how I tried every trigger in the book, and by that time, and this is the first time I've ever sharing this, but I really really developed some some strong anxiety issues, specifically social anxiety, and so even being on the court for me was a trigger. It was a major trigger, actually, um, you know, and I just I just really struggled with that, uh. And I fought the medication route. I really wanted to find a way to like you know, deal with it naturally and kind of get through it. Um. You know, I'm really as a side knowing, I'm really happy that guys are coming to speak out about mental health in the league right now. I mean, I know Kevin Love is doing it, Demarca Rosen is doing you know a few other eyes. But you know, at that time, I really really wish I would have had you know, someone to talk to or an outlet about that. Um. And not not because I was you know, probably still be in the NBA, but more so because I needed help, you know. And and then as as an athlete, as you know, kind of like the head of my household, like where do I go for help? You know? Um, you know people don't still fully comprehend the difficulty of dealing with mental health. You know, it's still kind of viewed is like all right, it is don't be depressed or don't be anxious, Like why is you know, anybody who's dealt with it knows that it's you know, it's it's easier said than done. After Brooklyn, I ended up going back to Stanford. So I said, you know what, I'm gonna finish my degree. You know, if if this is it, there's been a good run, you know it hasn't. It didn't finish the way I would like. I would have liked it to finish, but you know, um, I'll be all right right, I'll make my way. Um. So I went back to Stanford, went to finish my degree and in that time, and it's amazing, by the way, when you go back to school, like how much better you are at it. I care so much more and you're able to process it. It was it was, you know, I took like the undergrad like I was taking like twenty units and in a quarter, like I was crushing it. But anyway, so I finished my degree. But in that time I was I was hooping with the team and I was like, I can still play man all the crap. That kind of went with, you know, the business side of basketball for me over the last few years has going out the window, and I was just in the gym hoping with you know, some young guys and was enjoying it. After that I went to Australia. That that was that was the transition. It was like it was like, you know, all right, I'm gonna stop good my degree, you know, kind of focusing on this next phase of my life. And they being in the gym again with the Stanford team, it sparked the level of the game. I want to go back and and talk about what you shared and thank you for sharing that. And I think, you know, when we were talking about the essence of the show, and even though the premise of my shows is talking about life transitions, the thing that I've learned and talking to other psychologists and sports psychologists, and I think it's imporant for everybody, you know, is that everybody thinks that mental health has to do with mental disorders and illnesses and psychosis and it's not. It's it's happiness and well being and high performing and functioning and also on the other end of the spectrum, and we all live on one place of the spectrum and we all go up and down. So like that's percent my message right now. Um, So with the was social anxiety and now that you have the opportunity to to share with people about what that is, So how does it manifest itself and and what are some of the symptoms crippling? I mean, it'd be quite quite blunt about it. Um. You know, I vividly remember moments where, you know, I'd be in the game on the court and you know, I'd go to shoot a shot and I was so I mean my body was just locked up or like I mean, I can't remember how many times the air ball the year, Like it was just it was, you know, I was so nervous all the time, and I felt like the entire planet was, you know, watching me that year. I ended up like not shooting any free throws that entire year because I was so nervous about going to the free throw line and having everybody look at me. The crippling nature of of what I was dealing with. You know obviously it was all mentally. It made been some physical you know, maybe some imbalances, you know, my body. Yeah, I just I couldn't shake it. I couldn't shake it. And I tried. I tried. I tried, seeing different people here and there, you know, I tried. Did you go to a psychologist therapist? I did, and nobody was able to help you. Really it made me think about how strong and powerful my mind is that, like I could, I could create this whole scenario something that I just had a really difficult time shaking, you know, with stying impacted my my entire being, if you will, I did somebody tell you the difference between an anxiety attack and disorder versus social anxiety? I just like do research. I looked it up online, and I mean I had anxiety attacks, um, you know, and I dealt with that, you know, the best I could. But I was always nervous about medicating, just because I feel like, you know, you get dependent on that than than what you know. So I tried to manage um, you know, and trying to kind of get through it at the end of the day, like from a basketball perspective. It didn't really work, but you know, I feel like I've come through it and better for it now versus, you know, if I would have been, you know, taking fields as a way to to keep through it. So just several days ago, a player revealed for the first time to publicly that that he dealt with anxiety attacks as well while while he was playing UM and it's a it's a really big issue. I just visited with Dr param Dr William Parton, who's the new mental health director for the m b p A, and I told him, I said, I don't want to be ignorant and say that any sport deals with different pressures or there's certain symptoms or situations that are characters sick of each sport. But it seems like for some reason basketball NBA players there's just a lot of issues with anxiety I and I said, I don't know why. And I asked him if if he in his research if he has noticed any differences, but he said, not necessarily, but he certainly said that culture structure that all impacts everything. Do you is there something about about basketball and the nature, the traveling, the the number of games, longer season versus any other sport. The culture of of the league is not the culprit. Let's say, for example, if you're a football player, you know, while everybody is watching it, you also still have a helmet that you know, ton other teammates out there, right and you know basketball you have you know for the guys. But culturally, I don't think it's easier. I think it's just the pressure of performance, financial component of it. I think the media and fans. I would venture to say that probably most of the guys that deal with it are also probably a bit more analytical, um, you know, maybe a little more cerebral, maybe a little more introverted, um you know who you know, just sitting think about stuff, you know, and it just it becomes a you know, snowball effect where you know they're then thinking about everything and the wrong things, and you know they can't shake it. These discussions that no one has answers too, but they are important discussions to have. We can become more understanding and compassionate and also we can do something about it. If dMar comes out and then Kevin love and they're there's slight differences, you know, Kevin love um talk about his his panic attacks during the postseason, and Demarja Rosen talked about his depression. And then we had the situation with Royce White and then an NBA player that admitted to having um and anxiety attack, but he didn't end up getting help either. Why not, Well, you know, part of it is is who do you go to? You know, you you go and and and this is this kind of gets back into the nature of professional sports. If you go to your team and say, hey, I'm dealing with something I really need some help, they may help you, they may not, but then they're going to utilize that against you when it's contract time. You can't go there. You know, most of the time, you know, you probably can't go to family for it because not everybody's family understands the nature of mental health. And you know, and also they might be a part of the problem and they might be right. And so you know, you could potentially go to your agent maybe, um, you know, maybe they could help, but you know, there aren't a ton of people that you can reach out to. Now, you know, you can try and find some to yourself. Um, you know, maybe that's the way to go, But then you're you know, you're trying to find a leedle in the haystack, and you know, figure out who who can help you through this issue. Um, you know. So I think it's amazing that the NBA is now implemented this program. You know, it gives guys a safe place to go, you know, and get help. I really really wish it was around when I was when I was in the league. It's something that I think is more and more guys like Kevin and Tamar, you know, come and speak about come out and speak about you know, you start to see that, you know, there are guys that are at the highest level they deal with it, you know, so maybe it is more comfortable to you know, to for people to come out and have those discussions. But you know, until you know athletes and specifically younger athletes can find that that place of comfort and trust, um, you know, it will still be a major issue. I mean. And my assumption is that you know, if you went to your coach about it, you know, they probably just to you to stop being a punk and toughen up. And I mean, you know that's that's that's how that's how I go. So um yeah, I mean it's it's it's a tough space, but it's also you know, a space that I think there's a lot of room for improvement, and you know, hopefully more and more people come out and speak about it and are able to make that change. Where are you with in terms of experiencing any more attacks? And it's just not been a couple of times. That's something that I think you'd deal with, you know, over the course of your life. I'm a lot better now, um, and obviously not playing helps, but that wasn't the cause for it to to you know, kind of dissipated as it has. But it's learning more about myself, learning what triggers it, learning how I can you know, try and implement things too, you know, if not remove, I guess minimalize, you know those thoughts, uh, and also just trying to take myself too seriously. You know, we get caught up in trying to be perfect a lot, and you know, social media has definitely impacted that in a negative way. You know, everybody on social media is living their best life, and it's like are you really? Probably not, but you know, kind of sifting through all the junk and just kind of focusing on like what really matters, family, friends, you know, you know, what you're passionate about. First trigger is like public speaking, you know, so being like being on the stage, UM like that it's really tough for me, um, and that's a tough thing for a lot of people. But well that carried over me into the court. So like when I was like the center of attention to an extent, you know, um, you know, you just can just get a little tents or whatever. So I had to go in the game, specifically when I was in Australia and Japan, just making sure to understood, like the winner lose, good or bad, I'm still me. I still have a family that loved me, um, you know. And I started actually before every game, I started writing down, um, the things that I was thankful for, and um, you know, my goals for the game. Umcent of the time had nothing to do with basketball. It was just you know, about just being in the moment and enjoying, you know, the fact that I'm able to do this still, you know, and do it at a high level, um, you know, and just trying to stay healthy through it all and all that. So at the end of the day, UM, you know, it sounds a bit more of it, but nobody's gonna survive it anyway, So why stress you know, I don't really kind of break it down, UM, you know, just enjoy it. Yeah. So I feel like that's a content Indian coming out, Like it's like that's a that's a very direct way of looking at things and very rational. But thank you for sharing all of that. What are you doing these days? What am I doing it? I've been heavily involved in, you know, kind of investing in a bunch of different things over the years. Uh, and I've kind of narrowed that focus down on the real estate myself and my former college teammate and roommate as name is Justin Davis, who founded a company called Landspire, the Landspire Group. What we've done, what we're trying to do, is to go into communities of color uh and under resource communities, if you will, and impact change. So doing that through real estate investing in development UM and you know, you hear the term getrification a lot um these days. Uh. And so we want to make sure that we're able to go into these communities and empower the residents and the community stakeholders to um, you know, be able to take advantage of know better opportunities, better facilities, better housing, UM you know, and just uplift those communities. So U it's been my pope, my passion and my focus for the last year or so. Uh, and that's always just kind of coming about now. I mean, you're gonna be fine. You're you're a smart, smart guy. Uh, you got your degree. Um, you're fairly smart. Went to Stanford sometimes, Yeah, you're gonna be You're gonna be Okay, did you get a chance to to close it out yourself? Did you get a chance to April? I was in Japan, Okay, So I played this year in Japan. Um, and yeah, it was the last game of the season, and I was just like, let me back up because I had another last game that I thought was my last game, um, which was last year. So there was a there was a team that came over from Israel and they played the NBA games, you know, the preseason, and so I was like, you know what, if I'm done this year, I want to go out like on an NBA court, So where I started my career in my pro career, I'm gonna finish there. And so we went out and we played the h We played the Sacramento Kings, and I had a great game, like like I was carefree. I didn't you know, care about anything. Did anybody know it was her last game? Like, had you talked about it? Did you? Of course, with your personality, you're not going to announce it. Yeah right. Um, so it was like my last two. But that was the first of two. So I had like eighteen and seven and like you know, offending of these young guys who you know, and I was like, this is a great way to go out right. Yeah. So I did that. And then the next thame played the Clippers and I ended up whatever reason, the coach ended up playing US last. He wanted to play his team a bit more of that game. But I felt really good about just walk in a way like that, you know, knowing that I could still play at that level it's given the opportunity, but also really feeling good about having gone through what I went through, you know, that last portion of my NBA career, and to go out there and like, you know, have a good game. It just was a great feeling. Um. And then and then you came back, and then I came back after that. You know, I had a pretty good relationship with my coach over in Japan, and they were struggling a bit, and he said, Josh, he actually didn't offer the contract to me. He asked me about some other players, and I was like, that's a nice contract, was like, and he got stocked back into it. So I went. I went over to Japan. I played there this last year. Um. And then my last game was April into April, and I had a really good game and once again I just let go and play freely, and um, knew that it was going to be my last last game. So so how does it feel? It was good because I remember several years ago it was some sort of documentary and I think at that point you said, I'm not happy with how things ended. I was still kind of fresh off of the NBA. Since then, I've grown a lot. I've learned a lot about myself. I have, you know, playing in some really cool areas, met some great people, I mean Australia. UM experience was amazing going over the I'm eating people some lifelong friends. You know from that experience, Yeah, I'm good. If I may suggest something, uh, and this is only for you to do with yourself, but it's something that my therapists often tells me to do. Any time a chapter closes but to write a letter to basketball just talking about what it meant to you, where it took you, and like say your goodbyes to it. I get so emotional, like even just saying it, because it's such a it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a company, a person, and experience. It's hard to sometimes let go. It's hard to get closure because closure is so you want to hold on and you want to like have control over you know, enclosure is never it never goes the way we want it hardly ever, does you know, because it's that's what it is though, right, it's kind of a relationship right most of my life, So yeah, I mean since I was seven, so almost thirty years. As we close this out, I often ask athletes what kind of advice do they have for others out there in terms of who are making a transition away from basketball. You can answer that, or I would pose, what do you want people to know about Josh Childress Mm hmm, nothing. Not If I saw we give it to younger guys or guys just going through transition would be your start earlier. You're gonna fail as some things so fail fast and you know, fall forward into the next one. You know, try a bunch of different different things. You know, I tried to venture capital thing for a bit. I tried you know, I tried real estate. I've tried I've thought about franchising. I've tried all, you know, different types of investing and things that I wanted to do. I never tried coaching, which I don't think I'd be very good at. But try everything. Latch on to a few mentors. Mentors that will push you step outside of your your comfort zone. Um. You know, we we get kind of caught up in and dealing with only other athletes or basketball players, you know, get to know people outside of your space, and um embraced that it's going to end. You know, it's just a matter of when you know and and try and figure out, you know, kind of how to hit the ground running when it does. I'm actually an incredibly goofy person. I'm only that way around people that I you know, trust and feel good about. Um and keep my life private, which is important. But you know, now as I step into this next phase, you know, I'm actually like talking about doing some marketing and branding and you know, creating content like and stuff that I would never have done before. But I feel like it's important that people just get to see me for who I am and you get to know me as more than you know the guy with the afro who you know, had the jump shot that they made fun of all the time, like you know, there, I hear that all the time, like, oh you got this shot, Maryan. Yeah, okay, I've heard it before. Okay, we don't need to hear your recycled jokes. I'm just going to kind of continue to let that that go where it goes, you know, and let people, um, you get an understanding for whoever they am and what I'm about. So maybe this is a bad wound. Why did you decide? Tom? Why did you I'm trying to to change. I'm trying to change how I approach things and trying to be more open to things like this, you know, and um, you know, I don't know if my story will help anybody, but if it does, that would be amazing. And maybe I'm able to connect with people and try and help them in other avenues with you know, how I dealt with mental health or real estate or you know, professional sports or whatever it may be. Yeah, I'm just trying to be more open to opportunities and and tell my story. You did today and I don't talk too much. I'm sorry I kept you here, but it was so good because I was like, you have such an interesting story, feel like people know it's and pieces of you. They don't know all of you, and I feel like, Yeah, thank you for coming on the show, Josh. A big, warm thank you to Josh for, as he said, being more open to things like this and sharing not only his story but the ups and downs he faced while playing basketball, and the fact that he said he usually doesn't talk this much. I hope it means I did an okay job and making him feel comfortable enough to share his journey. Thanks for listening to the next chapter. Feel free to let me know what you took away from today's conversation. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at prim Underscore s ripa pat really hope you enjoyed today's best of episodes. Stay tuned as we prepare for season three of the next chapter or can hardly wait for all of you to dive into this new content coming up. If you're interested in checking out some of the other episodes in the meantime, just visit our show page on I heart Radio or wherever you get your podcasts, and to watch the full version of these interviews, you can head on over to YouTube just search for the next chapter with prims rippa Bat. Of course, subscribe to us, like us, give us star rating. 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