The Next Chapter with Prims. Rippabad is a production of My Heart Radio. Hey everybody, it's prim Welcome to the Next Chapter, presented by Baron Davis and Slick Studios. Today, we continue our best of series as we re air some oldies of the next chapter. And for some of my newer listeners out there, I'm excited that this is going to give you the opportunity to just dive into some really great content that you might have missed. And while you are diving into this best of series, I will not be taking a break, but I will be grinding on season three of the next chapter, So please stay tuned. Today we are going to reair my interview with former NBA player and number one overall pick Greg Odin. During this two hour plus long conversation, we unpacked not just the highs of his pro basketball career, but really dive into all the lows. He endured injuries, seven surgeries, being labeled a bust, substance abuse, depression, trying to figure out his life purpose after sport. We really get into it all, and I was so so deeply grateful that Greg was courageous enough to open up about his journey and with me truly. I really hope you enjoyed today's best of episode. So without further ado, here's my Greg Oden conversation. Hi Greg, how are you? I am great? Thank you for having I was expecting a warmer welcome, but it's snowed last night. What is up? This is at the time of this taping is in the middle of November, early November actually, and it snowed and it kind of wreaked a little havoc everywhere. Yes, because I was wearing a short earlier day yesterday, little little colder today. But you and I were texting back and forth and I was like, hey, you know, I want to make it as comfortable and fun as possible for you, and so you I was like, hey, how about some donuts? So I went across the street got some buck I Donuts. Apparently that's like the big thing here at Ohio State. Well, first off, first class service. Thank you, You're welcome. I appreciate that you didn't have to and I wanted to. This is probably my second time actually having buck Eyed Donuts and I've still never been in there. Are you serious? It's literally right across the street. Yeah, but there's literally no park that's true. Yeah, but but we also mentioned that, Um, you like you're a crispy cream guy. I am just original glaze and raspberry field glaze. I am good. You're a simple guy, yeah, because I didn't know your taste, so I I'm kind of I like colorful stuff, So I got like the chocolate one with sprinkles. I got this crazy huge one. It was like the maple bacon. There's two slices of bacon on there. Are you going to eat that? Um? You know what, I may give it to Josh. We're going to meet up with Josh Perry, another Ohio's made alm. He's a football guy. Like he looks like a dude that might like crush that maple bacon, don't. Yeah, but you know, when those guys stop playing, they get skinny, you know, so he may not want all them, all of them. Yeah, you're right. But with football, I've noticed that a lot of football players, especially like the old line and they don't need all those calories, and the defensive backs they're not lifting like that, so they get a little bit Skinnierketball players, we run so much that when we stopped playing, it's just like the weights coming I feel like there's no excuse because you guys are so tall, like me sitting at five too. If I have a little bit anything that's off my my typical diet, it kind of shows, you know, you being really like tall and stretched out. I feel like you can stretch out any weight that comes on, You can stretch it out. But that doesn't mean the weight it's not there. I look, William, but I'm close to three. Yeah. Uh. But it's funny when you when you went for the donuts and you went for the simple glaze, you were not attracted to any of the colorful you know, kind of like big time donuts. Is that Is that an indication of your personality at all? Um? I would like to say so, but it's more of an indication of just my taste puts. I'm not a big chocolate guy. Um sprinkles all that extra stuff now. I just like the sweet sugary straight to the point of So I guess, um, that is kind of take on my personality. Yeah, I mean, if you think about other aspects of of your life, whether it's like fashion or clothing or how you live your life, I'm too big to be out there crazy colors. But I do like the fact that the pants nowadays are a little short, because no pants fit me at all. So you know the high water pants that's in style. I'm like, yeah, I can do that. Are you like the high water really? That's funny. Um. Well, it's so great to connect with you again. And I got a chance. We got a chance to to meet one another and work with one another. Earlier this year at an os U you'r alma mater, they were having a what they call Sports and Society panel. It talked about what happens to athletes when sport is no longer a part of their life. And it was like this all day affair and multiple panels and hours. Was the last one it was you myself. Joshua Perry Um, former Ohio State football player, also played in the NFL. Monica I Law her name, last name was vaz Quiz. She was a synchronized swimmer. That was really cool to hear her experience. And then Dr Steve Graf, Yes, who also he played football but as a sports psychologist now and I was the only non back eye. I didn't realize that, but you are a blue devil, right, yeah, you are a blue devil and one thing I have learned through my travels is Duke alums getting any door. Really, yes, they do. Why do you say that? Where there everywhere? I've played with Josh Vick Roberts and u Shavlik Randolph, and between most two, I can possibly meet anybody I want to. That is comical. I do remember, Yes, I mean well Shane, I mean just Shane's Shane. Yeah, that guy does not mess around. He's got He's just a stand up guy. Really yeah. Um, but that that panel was so important. I had never seen a university or any athletic department UM hold something like that, and it was I I haven't, at least not not yet. I'm sure there's somebody doing that. But it was really cool to see UM a school that's so big, especially in that athletic space, but doing taking the extra effort to prepare their student athletes for for life afterwards. I mean, it was a really good panel, and I think it was something that could benefit by the athletes actually being there to see something like that. I mean, it was a couple of students who were athletes in there, but I think, you know, just the majority of athletes that they had a chance to look at something like that, especially in college, because you know you at that time, you're looking at you're gonna be playing your sport for the rest of your life, and you don't think about, you know, something that happened tomorrow, um, or while I'm in school that you know you have to prepare for that next chapter of life. How, Um, had you done anything like that before before that? No? Not um talking about it or? That was my first time just being open, honest and candidate about just the struggles that I've been through with my transition away from playing basketball. Really, so that was your really first moment taking the time to open up about everything your basketball journey or life journey. Like I've done interviews and spoke about some of my struggles, but that being on the panel and talking in front of people and act actually you know, word for word going about the struggles and a connection of me transition into where my mind was at that time, that was the first time I got a chance to do that in front of people alive. You're amazing. I mean you you talked very candidly about everything that you you have been through. UM, And You're right. I've seen bits and pieces where people have done multiple stories on you, a lot of bits on your basketball journey, and some of it might be related to your personal stuff. But I don't think I've seen a video interview or anything, at least not yet of you, um talking about this stuff. Do you do you get media requests? Uh? Frequently often? Or how how often do people reach out? I'm getting a lot more emails nowadays, a couple of podcasts, and just trying to be smart about which ones I'm doing, and uh, you know, just not trying to do everything in my jumps because I want some time to myself, time with the family, you know. But I am happy and I jumped at this chance to do your podcast. Thank you, Greg. Why. I guess there's been a few athletes that I've that I've gotten a chance to to sit down with. I mean, there's been about twenty of them so far, and certain athletes I know are more private and more introverted, and I I am honored and flattered that anybody would want to take the time to open up because it's just not an easy thing. It's not an easy thing for for me either. But I'm at a point in my life where I am I realize who I am and I've healed from my pains and I can talk about them now. But you know, for those players that I know that are more private in there, they had the courage to come down, come down here and sit with me. I do ask a question like why, you know, like what what allows you to come here today to you know, talk about whatever we're I talk about today. Um, Well, first it was you because we did have a conversation um back when we did the panel, and UM, you know I told you that I would because we had a similar experience, um with a sleep in our sport. Um. But also I've lived it, Like I guess I was kind of looked at as more of a private guy as well when I was playing, But that's because you know, you wanted to ask me just about basketball. I was never really asked about my personal life or how it felt about certain situations. And when you think about that, when you're playing the sport, you know a lot of people don't really look until you at that time. They're was worried about what you're doing in your sport right now, they don't really worry about the person you are or kind of how you feel certain situations in life, and right now, like I lived it. A lot of this stuff, you know, it happened in the past. It's not like it's going to change. There's nothing I can say that it's going to make my experience any difference. So I just kind of own it and own the path that I've taken to get right here now. So that's why I'm so open and candid about, you know, the experiences I went through. Um, if I can help somebody make a better decision, or if I just inspire somebody to be better and one part of their lives, UM, I would definitely tell my story and my struggles that I've been through. That's awesome that you own it and not everybody, depending on when you asked somebody, not everybody, including myself, is able to own their story. Um. It takes a lot of reflection, It takes a lot of healing as well. And it sounds like you're I mean it would make sense in in the best place that you've ever been in your life. Would that be a fair question? Or I mean I'm good, I'm happy graduated. Uh you just graduated this year? Yes? And may Um, I would love to say it was a unique thing. I guess it was for me. But then it was the biggest graduating class in the history of a House States So no way. Yeah, I was part of that and it was like was her class. I want to say it was nine, that's it was like, and one because of you. Yeah, we're going to say that. Yeah, but I mean it was. It was a great experience. Like I talked about when I finally went down to tunnel, you know, it was like like right when we got to the end, I started doing my little shake, I spread it like three steps. It was I feel like I was won the football team, you know. But it was good. That's awesome. What a cool experience. Congratulations And you majored in something in sports, right, sport industry? Yes, bestler of education and sport industry. That's very cool. Yeah. I mean, like, so, you know, in the process of doing these interviews where I launched the show in a couple of months, but I think that the one message I want to send, especially with your story and mind, is I know I might get the question and of like what made your interviews different? And I think the one thing that I would say to them is reporters and journalists and this is not to say anything, this is not like an indictment or anything good or bad about what anybody is doing, because everybody has their beat. As you know, they'll come in with a certain angle. And as people in sports, you are often you have to talk about what's going on in the game or someone's performance. But I think the one thing that I would say to them is like, in order to get different answers, you have to talk. There's a there's a person behind the frame, the shield, the image of the athlete, and that's important to me. And maybe maybe my perspective is a little different because I've been through it, you know, um, And I'm excited to hear to learn more about your story because I think we have you know, I mentioned to you before the interview that I've got like all these notes, but it's only because your basket ball career is so intricate and very complex. There's a lot of huge events going on. It's hard to to kind of grasp everything that that went down, And for me, I'd become obsessed with timelines, so that way I'm able to like, it's like everyone's life is like a puzzle, right, But I'm going to present those timelines. But it's your platform to kind of like fill in the gaps and color color this color book. You know, yeah, I mean it's your story, you know what I mean? And I want to I want to make sure I ask different questions and questions that people have never asked before. And I think that that will give people, uh a better understanding of who you are as a basketball player and also a person. You know. Well, I appreciate that opportunity, UM, and I hope it does. Um. UM, wherever you want to start from, I guess I mean, I'll ask you like a you know, like who is Have you asked yourself the question? Who is Greg Odin? I've actually recently been working on that. Um. It's crazy because when I was in school, I kinda I felt like I halted a lot of my life. And that was a lot of my transition period because you know, for all I knew was playing basketball, playing basketball, and then when I finally retired, um, after Miami and after I played it here in China, UM, I was really lost and kind of had no idea where I wanted to go. And I say this again, thank coach stad Mata. You know, he picked up that phone and he gave me a call and me and him talk for a while, and that was the conversation that really needed to have because I had no direction at that time. There was a lot of alcohol abuse. Um. It was a lot of the time smoking a lot of weed, and I just didn't really know what I was going to do next. UM and Coach Mada, I started coming of practices and then I finally enrolled in summer school and then I was a student manager with the team while taking full time and I did that three years. UM. And while I was doing that, I was kinda like, you know, just get school done, you know. I mean, I did, you know, have a daughter and got married. But that's a lot going on with the family and daughter. And my wife was a saint for putting up and I'm like grown man, like, yeah, I got class. And she was like, wait, we got this stuff to do. We got this baby to take care of. She's like, I got work, and I'm like, yeah, I got class. Uh. So you know that was I'm thankful to her for the strength that she had, you know, to be there with me. UM. But I'm a different type of dude. I'm a schedule, Like, tell me what I need to do first. A BC give me that list and I can go down to list and do it. But I'm always a guy like you gotta do a before you move to be you know. So for me, it was like at this school and then get this degree and then you know, figure out what you're gonna do um outside of that. So now I kind of feel like I'm opening up my eyes saw all these different opportunities to you know, do some motivational speaking, to help out in the community, to you know, be a mentor to some kids, and also be a better husband and father, you know, and provide for my family as well, be more educated and stuff that, you know, my finances, you know, it's just things around my life and and my affairs. You know that when you're playing and you're getting checks, you don't even think about it. You're like, I got a guy to handle that. But now I'm growing and I'm like, I need to know understand what my finances are doing. You know, I got people that I trust, but I feel like I need to be a little bit more involved in some of these things. And you know, there's possibly some things that could have missed out on because I was just focused on school, you know, instead of being knowledge. You'll both to be like, hold on, this is happening this year. You know, I still got a lot more checks coming in right now. Maybe I should take advantage of that. And these are a lot of things that when we're in that moment when we're getting tex we don't think about or take advantage of in the time. You know a lot of athletes when when sport is no longer part of their life, the one common theme that that does come up to the surface is that we lose that sense of structure because our days are so crammed from five am all the way to eleven pm. You know, especially you know you're only in college, you know, for a year, but even when you go to the professional level. I mean, it's just like you get up at five am, you have breakfast, you have to be you have to warm up at seven am, you have to be on the court by eight and go from eight to ten, and you have film and lunch and the meetings and all that stuff. So when that was then't a part of your life, did you miss it? And as do you think that contributed to some of your struggles and find some sort of system to go off of. Yeah, I definitely want to say that because you just, uh, you're so used to having that schedule that when you don't have, you know, something to do, it's just kind of lost, you know. Um. And I mean I don't know if anybody's ever smoked weed, but that's a perfect way to get lost in time. So I just kind of get paranoid from that that I don't really like get lost and relax. I get paranoid from that stuff. See I was TV. I got lost in hours and movies, and I mean that's how I just kind of dealt with the free time, you know, and then the evening would come and be like, okay, it's party time and a lot of that as well as you're doing all this stuff and you're spending this type of money, but that money is not coming in that it was, Um, that's another stress that's happening. Um. When I look at it, it was a way too numb. A lot of that free time. Um. And I mean, like you said, it's when you don't have that schedule that you know, the wondering mind is going to find something to pick up that slack. Yes, definitely, the mind is like a little puppy dog. It likes to chew on issues and problems and thoughts. And when you don't give it something to work on, it will find something to chew on. And the easier things are the things that are probably not the best for you, um and the healthy standpoint um. But it's easier to just go out and drinking, to go out smoking, to not do anything to help your life. It's tough to get up when you don't know what's going on, to read a book to better yourself, to find things to you know, put together your time, to donate time or money to causes that means something to you. It's hard to take the time to figure out what means something to you in your life because a lot of us just go through life and it's always our sport. Um. But when do you actually look back and be like, hey, I actually like this, you know, I want to donate or put I want to put some time into some things that I actually like away from the sport. And that's a big thing for me that I had to realize, Like when I when I graduated, I was like, Okay, I can get a job, but I want to get something that you know, I enjoy doing. And then you look back and you're like, well, what the heck do I enjoy doing? You know, it's kind of tough to actually find that. You know, from an early age, if you don't have that thing away from your sport that you love doing or you just enjoy doing, it's tough to find that when the sports taken away. And I think the one thing that's like really critical about your story and I and I want to highlight it so people understand just this concept of what they call in psychology to athlete identity as basically happens when a person really identifies and internalizes sport as as who they are and also what they do. And I think because of your background, Um, I think basketball became like everything in your entire world. And I think it might be I'll let you obviously delve into it, but I think some of it was intentional, but some of it was accidental. And I guess, well, I'll explain it a little bit. But so you were born in Buffalo, right, Buffalo, New York. And what was your childhood like? Um, Me and my brother, mom and dad, um, a bunch of cousins. Spent a lot of time at my aunties and my grandmother's house with my cousin, My cousin, Christopher, UM was kind of like a brother to me. It was like once we were out of school and you know, he was out of school, we were at his house. He was following him, me and my younger brother. You know, he was he was our everything. You know, he was our big cousin. Everything he did we had to do. Um. Something. You came from a pretty big family, yeah. I mean my mom had three sisters and two brothers. Um. You know, two of them didn't have any kids, but they were the younger ones, um. But the other ones all had multiple kids. So I have a lot of cousins, um, and you know, we're a close family. And then and then you ended up moving to Indiana at ninety third grade. Third grade, so yeah, that's around like eight nine, I believe. And why did you guys end up moving? My mom and dad actually got a divorce. Um, So my mom got me and my brother and we went to Tara Halle, Indiana. Yeah, it was. I opened it and went from the inner city of Buffalo, New York to Tarahoe, Indiana. I swear I didn't even see sidewalks and the suburbs, you know, really like coming from Indiana from New York. It was really weird because like you getting the suburbs of a city, like eating here in Columbus, like in Dublin, Like I'll be going to place, I'll be driving up, Like I didn't have sidewalks here, Like that is really true. There's a lot of highways. Yes, yeah, it's not a walkable area. So that was like one thing. I was like, Okay, that was a little weird. But I mean Basketball Country, Larry bird Land, you know, Tara Hot it was. I mean, we had our auntie and my my couple of my uncle's dad, so it was my grandfather but and then my grandmother weren't married anymore and we're here, so that's who we moved in with. Um And that's around the time I've really started playing basketball serious um. But that was because my mom was working two jobs, you know, to provide for me and my brother. So I spent a lot of time at the Boys and Girls Club and not really thinking about it. It It was just going and playing basketball every day. I didn't think I was good, but it was something to do to pass the time, and after a while I got pretty decent in it. I also hope that you're really you eventually became very tall. But like you know, for even just for that experience, like watching your parents go through divorce. I mean, there's a lot of people that can understand that. I mean, of marriages end up in in a divorce, so the percentages aren't good. So that must have been really tough. And you were old enough at what eight nine years old to understand what was going on. It's not like you were two years old. And then to have to move to a brand new place, and even though it's just like a minor detail, um that the fact that there aren't any sidewalks, like it's it's just a different environment, right, So maybe it took away the community aspect where you're So you and New York were so used to going over to your cousin's house and stopping through or whatever, and then you go to a different environment and all of a sudden, you're just like, maybe there's not as big of a community or you're not as connected, And yeah, I mean you're just not as connected to that community at first. Um, but then with the divorce, you know, it kind of being a way to kind of set the boundaries. I guess because you know, before we moved, it was like no arguments. You know, you kind of noticed things like, all right, this is a little different. But now you know mom's here, Dad's here. We know that there's a hard line. So I mean we kind of understood in that way. Um, but at that time I did. I started playing on the AU team, and I want to say, yeah, fourth grade, fifth grade, do you think that looking back at things? So and I and I moved from its War, Missouri, so you know, I grew up in the Midwest and it's so different. And I moved to Tampa, Florida, to Tenna Tennis Academy. So that's like it was such a huge shock for me, like moving cities at a young age, like is earth shattering like that that impacts you forever, because I went from being the kid in town everybody knew tennis player, a really good tennis player, and all of a sudden, I went to a public school and I was like the new kid getting picked on. And I went from a predominantly white, very like safe neighborhood in Missouri, Mexico, Missouri shoutout Mexico, Missouri, Tyloo. You know, I gotta give my my show me state a shout out. And then but then I went to a public school and it was like super diverse and way more rough and tough. But the reason why I highlight that is because you know, just talking about your experience of you know, you have things going on with your family and then you're like the new kid on the block. And I, for me, like I was trying to find something to hold onto because all this unfamiliarity is like popping up in your life. And so for me, pouring myself into sport that became my family, that became my stability and something to hold on. It was it was like my my teddy bear. I don't know what else to call. It was like my my first love, my relationship. And hearing about your experience, I wonder if how did basketball, because of everything that was going on around that time, did that kind of become your family your best friend in a way. I mean at the time, I don't think I really thought about it that way. Um, I just looked at it as it was something to do. Um. I just looked at basketball like, you know, you got all this free time. You don't really know a lot of people. I mean, this is just a sport to have fun, um, get out a lot of energy. Um. But I never really thought about it. But now looking back at it, I kind of golf myself in basketball around that time, Like I played in Buffalo. This was fun. And then when I got to Indiana, which is the basketball state, Um, that was all I wanted to do. Um, And that was it was cartoons school basketball, you know. Um. So yeah, I mean I guess with that move, it kind of was like, all right, all these thoughts I guess that young child has, it was for me it was basketball. So I was just there. You know, I didn't have time to think about you know, my parents or you know, being in the new city. You know. It's just like I know, this is familiar. I can do this as much as I want to, and it's not going to be changing. Yeah, yes, yeah, I mean of course, you know. And and I highlight that because especially as kids, we kids will develop amazing behaviors or coping mechanisms to deal with with life because life can get tough, right and um, and we won't really know why we do things until we're an adult, you know. And and I ask a lot of athlete questions, a lot of athletes these questions because then it starts to peel back to layers of like right, So this is why football or tennis or basketball became so important in my life because you know, it may or may not have related to the fan way UM and the divorce and the move, but it might play into the formula of it, you know, I don't know. It definitely did for me because the AU team I started playing for, Like, guys on that team are still family to me to this day. I mean, my best friend I met on that team, UM, and I mean he passed away while we were in college, but he was my best friend. I mean I could still say to this day he was the only person that I would talk to every day who was His name is Travis Smith. Where is a little forever in our hearts? Travis J. Smith's my best friend. UM. And his parents. His dad was the basketball coach. His mom is like my mom still to like there and his younger sister like they're my family still to this day. UM, and a couple of guys you're not I'm really close with on that team I still talked to UM and yeah, I mean they became my family, you know, away from home. You know, my mom and my brother, but I look forward to going to basketball practice, I look forward to going on AU trips with them because they they became my brothers and my family as well. Well. I mean, I think it makes sense then, why, at least at the very early stages, um, basketball became so important to you is because that meant family, especially if you'd move and also your mom. So, your mom was working a couple of jobs trying to support that. That That must have been really hard for her, especially becoming a single mother. Now that I am a mother, I'm like, I have no idea how single mothers do it. It just it don't. It's so hard. It takes a village to raise a kid. So props to her and all the shout out to all the single mothers out there. Definitely shout out to all the single moms. Yeah. So and then, um, so, when did you start basketball? What are your first memories? Um? So? I remember playing UM in the Little Summer League in third grade UM in Indiana in Buffalo. At the end of that summer, we moved to Indiana, UM and then I started playing on the AU team playing at the Boys and Girls Club and played with the AU team, and that's when it started. Fourth grade. It I don't think it's ever stopped my love for the game. I mean I played in the Big three League, the ice Q Big three League this summer, and so I mean when I can play, I go out there and play. Yeah. I mean, so it sounds like you were very good very early, because if you went no, no, that was not I started playing the first grade. I hit my first basket for the wrong team. I mean I got the ball and I just shot it, and they were like, there's a reason you got the ball. They're pressing in euro Open. I was like, oh, never passed me about anyways. Um, And I don't think I was actually good to like eighth grade really maybe nine you were tall, that was big. So in fifth grade you were five ten, about five ten, and then at the end of sixth grade I was six six six, Oh my gosh. And the seventh grade six seven, eighth grade six eight, fifth grade six ten, and six of eve and sophomore year, I was basically this hype. What was it like going through such a major growth bird and being so tall at such a young age, And I think what's unique about I was really thinking about this and having conversations with a lot of my friends in basketball outside of it. And the one thing that I've learned about NBA players particularly is that you guys are so tall that you literally physically stand out in the crowd. And while people that can't relate to that we're fans may not. They may look at that as really cool and glamorous because you get to be bigger than everybody else. But it's also hard because you can't hide either. One of the things that I've struggled with is just trying to be a guy that did not want all the attention. But when you're seven feet tall, you walk into a room or anywhere everybody can see you. So I used to tell people, you know, how would you feel if everybody can see you spot you out and then you're in the room where you know nobody, And you know, that's kind of tough because I walk in a room and everybody but I don't know that person. I've never met that person before in my life, and everybody can see me, so a lot of times I don't. I kind of hunt over, kind of put my shoulders down. Was always my way of kind of high and get into a corner and just kind of stay out the way. But you know, I've kind of tookn to a point where now where I'm like, you got on this. I mean, it's not going to change. I mean unless something horrific happens to your legs or your back, you know, you're not going to get shorter. Um, So you just, you know, just try to be as comfortable in your own skin as possible because it's not going to change. And that's the one thing I want to get by to a lot of people is you know, I'm walking in my shoes, you know, so there's no reason to be embarrassed about everything I've been through, you know, or who I am. You know, I'm this big, but you know, when you're seven feet tall, airplanes need to start giving you just automatic first class their seats because that is terrible. Like I remember sometimes going in and they'll look at me and be like, yeah, you got this regular sea and I like look up, like I can't say I feel sickly, can't fit, you know, from my hip to the bottom my knee, Like that space in between the seats is not That is so true for somebody who is very vertically challenged up by too I can fit into any space, so that I don't. And I even though most people would know me as very outgoing and warm and loud sometimes and but I I am an introvert at times. I really do. So, like after this interview and being if we go out to lunch and like see people like around five pm, I will hit a wall and I have to be by myself. Yes, And I want to point that out because I think we live in a society that rewards people for being loud and opinion especially today today's political climate, like loud and opinionated and strong and all that stuff. But I've I don't think strength has to be loud. I think strength can be quiet. But I think that if I were really tall and in your shoes, I think I would have it would have been tough for me because I like to hide sometimes. And but you know, going back to your middle school period, looking back, how did you adjust to your physical changes physically or mentally? Um well, mentally, I just kind of stay with basketball, you know, and stay with my sport that kind of molded me to be the person that I was. You know, I just you know, not really knowing how to handle being the biggest guy at a young age. You know, I'm the biggest guy in the school. And sixth grade, you know, did people that kids say anything? So, um, you know, girl pretty mean to me? The girls were, Yeah, I thought I thought that that would be an asset, being a tall, strong, stopping young lad in middle school, because like people are thinking about that sixth grade, you know, in my sixth grade in Tampa, Florida. Yeah, everybody's making fun of you in sixth grade. That is true. And I found that out when I moved over to Florida. Everybody makes fun of everybody. Kids can be really so when you're that that guy who doesn't know how to riff raft back or joke. Because I was never a guy to talk about everybody, you know, I just always have fun. You know, whatever somebody else had gone on or something bad that happened to them, I wasn't gonna put it on blasts or anything like that. I just tried to you know, maybe they need some help. You know. I was always that nice kid, um, but I don't know. Sixth grade was rest of me. And uh, you know, so I tried to even hide even more, you know, because I say this when well, my grandfather told me this. When you're big, one thing you can't do is look all bad with your clothes all and can't smell. You're already big, so you can't smell and dress super terribly. Your grandfather is he talld to or about six five, So we understand, you understood. I tried to tell people the all the time. You are already big. You can't be funky just out here addressing out terrible. I understand it's tough on us as a big man widom right there, It really is. I mean the clothes part, it's kind of hard. It's it's kind of hard to find clothes I just fit us. Um, but you can make sure you don't smell, yes, because yes, yes, that must have been. I think that's um interesting to hear your side of it because and those are like the little details that are, at least in my eyes, are important because it offers it offers people a different perspective on your journey, because I think most people see you as this big, strong, athletic basketball player at the next real Russell whatever you want to call it. But before all that began, you were just a kid who wanted to be loved like everybody else. And just wanted to have fun and wanted to have fun in basketball, but your physical stature. I was having this conversation yesterday. But like over time, as I've been able to talk to athletes, I kind of I start to place them in different groups so I understand their processes. And initially, like in terms of how an athlete begins sport, I always ask a question to the athlete, did you look for this sport? Did you gravitate towards it? Or did it find you? If that makes sense because so I and I've brought this up in other interviews. The reason why that became important to me and I related to that was I was reading Andre Agassi's book Open, and he talks about how he kind of fell into tennis. He didn't he grew to love it, but tennis found him, and that was my journey I tennis. I didn't necessarily seek tennis. It found me because I just happened to be like pretty good at it, and once I started, I grew to love it. But I also grew to love the things that had offered me, which over time it can kind of backfire. So they have like the difference between intrinsic value and extrinsic value. We've heard of those, right. So intrinsic value are things that are innate and you you truly love the sport, you have fun with it whatever. The extrinsic stuff is where things start to like really backfire everything exactly. And so like every athlete, especially as you get to the elite level, every athlete falls into that like who wouldn't love the attention and recognition? And you and I were talking about the free gear, like who wouldn't love all that attention and the money and the fame and the recognition all that stuff. Um, So I guess within that context, can you can you figure out if you gravitated towards basketball or in some ways it found you? Um? And looking at that, yes, um, because the basketball found you. Yeah, because it was just something that I did, Like basketball was we were at the Boys and Girls club anyways, and basketball is just one of those sports where you just get a basket and the ball and you can do it by yourself. You don't need everybody there. So you know, just shooting balls, just being talls, just waste some time. And then somebody, my best friend's dad saw me, like it's pretty tall it's trying to get them on our kids AU team. You know. Um, I wasn't good, but that I always went to practice. I enjoyed going to practice to be around these new friends that I had. You know. I was never thinking, Oh, you love this game of basketball, so you're doing it for this. It was like, no, I got friends. Now I went on AU trips. I had my first flight on the AU trip, you know, to Dallas. I was scared. He'll tell the story that I grabbed him so tight when we first took off. Um. And so now I'm going to all these places. I'm meeting a bunch of people. Um, but I'm also practicing all the time, you know, and I'm not really thinking about you know, I'm practicing to get better. It's just I'm on this team now, so I just keep on playing. I keep on playing. And it wasn't until I want to say, the summer of the seventh the summer after seventh grade, when one of my friends was like, Hey, you ever tried Duncan? And I was like, no, but I'm freaking six seven. So it's like, so I did. And I remember that I finally got it down. And then eighth grade, I Uh. Well, then later on that summer, I finally got a dunk in the game, and I don't know what that dunk did, but that dunk was like I was like, wait, this whole crowd just went crazy off of this one dunk. I can do that all the time. So the last thing, I know, that's all I wanted to do. I'm taking the spirit out of the opponent. Every time I dunk the ball. The crowd's going crazy. I'm getting energized, the teams getting energized. And then it just went from there. Um. And then that's really when I was like, hold on, not canna be really good at this, you know, I can start honing my skills. And then a lot of stuff started coming in in high school, all these awards, still traveling, going to Vegas for the first term, UM, college recruitment, UM, All American awards. Uh that I'm not even thinking about it. I'm just playing basketball and having a good time competing and enjoying the time with my friends and my family. It's interesting to hear your experience because I think internally everything is very It's a gradual and linear progression upward. And see if I can explain this how I'm processing everything, but like, underneath the surface, you were just doing it because you loved basketball and it was something to do and maybe it was a passion, but it wasn't like your life purpose or define you. Just let's just say you you liked it. Like it's okay too. You know. I feel like there's a lot of athletes that I found who obviously loved the sport, but there's a lot of them to get that get reached the elite levels. And it's hard to say, like, I just like my sport, you know, because we live in a society where it's, uh, I don't know, it's it's just very intense and there's a lot of expectations too, and fans and put all these expectations on your show olders, and like if somebody came out and like if if if you came out and we're like, you know what, like I like basketball, I don't love it, you would have gotten so much criticism hate. So it's so that's just kind of like bubbling beneath the surface. But then around you, I feel as though your your career, the events around you, we're so quick up and then so quick down. I was just going to say that. I look at it um as as that like my life story. It was built up and from a young age, everything was good, everything was going so well. Um, and I want to say my first big blow was in college. Um it was losing my best friend to a car accident. His man was Travis Smith. I got in a car. He went to but not Butler Ball State. Um. He was a golfer. Oh yeah, we was the first robbing big. You know, he's that five eleven white kids can shoot the ball play golf and I'm this seven foot six and eleven, big, tall black man. We were best friends. I love me some Robin Big. I know that was my favorite show. It was this me and him. That's really that's really cool and that's really cute. I think that says a lot about It says a lot about you and your openness to things and people too. I mean, everybody's a good person deep down, you know. I want to I look at life like you know, everybody as a person who give everybody their respect until they give you a reason not to. Um. That's just how I would want to be treated. Um. If you first meet me, I want you to treat me with respect as I'm gonna do the same to you, you know, if it doesn't work out, and we can go our separate ways, but you should bring U because not a lot of people are are like that, and you do come off so which is why I wanted, maybe uh selfishly to sit down with you, because you just genuinely are a very nice and warm person. Um. I wish that kindness would be rewarded more in today's society, but because I am the same way, but I've learned that sometimes people can take advantage of that. And and I think that's a part of your story as well, because you are so kind and if you because if you automatically trust or respect someone initially, like that's I think that's awesome, but that could also be the gateway towards a lot of hurt kind of. I mean, I don't look at it that way, you know, I just kind of look at it like this is just me, Like I'm going to respect everybody, everybody as a person. Everybody deserves some type of respect in this life. I mean, we're all here. We want to be happy, we want to enjoy time with our families, and we just want to live a good life. So that all stems from are you going to respect? Are you gonna put that same type of energy, that same type of kindness out in the world. And so that's what I want to do. You know, like you said, you know it should be rewarded a little bit more. But you know, if it's not, and you know, the loud anger or just aggressive, they kind of get up a little bit more in life. But that's not what I want to see. I want to see positivity. I want to see kindness. So that's the person that I'm going to be. I agree with you. I do think kindness wins in the end. Though. Um So, going back to your high school career, so meanwhile, you you fall into basketball and pretty good at it and you get really good at it, not pretty m kindly definitely helped just throwing that out there. When I look back at life, it was like you were pretty good. I had it pretty damn good playing guard as well, look really good. So he helps you look really good. But you did really start to blow up at the high school level. And then you started you talk about all these awards. You were the Gatoray Player of the Year was twice two years in a row. You were the Indiana Mr Basketball. Uh, you took your high school to three straight championships, right, And you know I was reading up on your story and I think about the move from New York to Indiana, and I feel I couldn't help but think how that blew up basketball as a part of your life. Because I think he would have been big no matter what physically and metaphorically speaking. But the fact that you went to Indiana where I mean the I mean that Indiana Mr Basketball is an award that's around for like since I think nine, So it just shows. Do you think that moving to Indiana played a role in your bigness of history? I think so, um, because basketball is a part of my history and a part of me um and Indiana just magnified that. And Um, that move I think kinda put my mind on that and down that path. I think in in New York, UM, I probably would have got there eventually. UM, but I think the people who I was around, the the teaching, the coaching I got in basketball from Indiana compared to what I probably would have got um in New York was just different. And it put me on this path that where it just blew up I mean, being you know, paired with Mike Conley Jr. Having his dad as our coach, seeing uh Olympic, just preparation and how he handled you know, losses wins. You know, I say, one of the best advice, one of the best advice I've got at a childhood was from Mike Conley Senior. It was, don't get too high up on the wins and don't get too low on the losses. You know, just try to stay even killed with all of it. And I think that's a great way to handle a lot of successes and a lot of losses in your life because you know, you won't let that affect you. Um And I wouldn't got a lot of that stuff if I wasn't in Indiana and basketball wise, I mean, because I said, it really did just blow up. But I mean, it took me a while to get there. But I think that coaching and the people that I was around in that path that I was on in Indiana made it that way. And I think it would have been a lot different. I mean, I could have still got to that point in New York, but it didn't happen that way. So it did seem like I know, it was a gradual process, but it seems like it happened so quickly. And so your your senior actually know you declared to Ohio State at your junior or your junior year. So what was the transition from high school to college like for you? Um? It was it was pretty pretty cool. I mean, it wasn't bad, and it was such a like you have such a big smile. But then there's there's like more behind that answer. Well, well, first, uh, just his energy and this university, like the football game he went to. Whnessay it was Ohio State Texas, So yeah, it was like one of the greatest football games ever. Um. And then coach Mada da Klin Cook already being needed to come here. Um, Matthew to Willer girl, who I throw out because you know, he was the guy who I was hanging with on my visit that like, I was like, okay, he's pretty cool. He basically sold me to come here. Um. Yeah, and we loved everything about Columbus and it was a two and a half hour drive. I used to say, you know, my mom can get here. She needed to, but it's just far enough that she's just not going to drive here every day to close. Yes, so that work. We were in the Midwest. We were at the football school. So you know, if we didn't perform up to par basketball wives, football is always gonna be number one anyways, So we were Okay, I love it. How you go there and you get all this attention, but you had that in the back of your mind. You're like, well, it's not too much attention, too much, it's not too crazy. And I mean just that transition Coachma, you know, coach Richardson, coaching majors, all those assistant coaches. They were so good. And I think that team was was meant for each other because you know, we we felt comfortable here. We enjoyed it. I enjoyed walking to class in the rain snow like this university. Oh my gosh. I really loved being a college student standing on campus that year. I mean, it could help that I was big man on campus. I guess to say, um, you were well loved just a little bit. Well, it's uh, you know, and you only spent even though you live here now and you came back, but you only spent one year here at Ohio State. And and looking at the events, at least on paper, one might think because transitioning to college for a lot of student athletes is can be. Really it was tough on me. It's a huge responsibility between like classes and class load and the academic rigor, and then also being a full time having a full time job and being a student athlete. But and you had surgery right before you came. We're surgery, right. But when I I get the sense that out of anything that I'm going to talk to you about, like Ohio State, your face just lights up. You get so happy, And it seems as though that is that a period where you had a lot of good memories. Definitely have a lot of good memories here. Um. It was one of those things when I think about it. Um, it's a tough transition period for everybody. But when I was here, I felt comfortable. Um, And I think that's why I still live here. Um, just the comfort level that Columbus gave me, Like it always felt like home from the firs time we step foot in our dorms, you know, I'm thinking we're gonna be in the little dorms, like sharing you know, room and bathroom with everybody on the floor. Um. But then you know we were able to get in the graduate dorms and we just had our own bedroom and me and Mike share the bathroom. Day Klint and Day shared the bathroom. We all shared the living room in the kitchen, you know, so they have that living situation and and everything. And I told you I like a list, so knowing that I have to be here and I have this class, and I have this tutor. We have practice schedule for this time, and then I got tutor after this, Like I had my whole day planned out, so it wasn't nothing I had to think about. The amplivized. It was just like you know where you gotta go be there, you know, so I always do. So when you spend a year here at Ohio State and even though you're injured, you guys come back. You have a great season, right, you get to the n n c A Championship game, the best filling afterwards, but you look back and you have great memories. And then compared to your experience at the m b A, which is uh, you know, I've learned more about that transition and talking to other NBA players that and it's unique and different than football because football there's so many positions. You have fifty three guys in a roster. Basketball is different where it's a smaller team five positions, so there's less spots. And it's tough because you go from college a very home uh comfortable environment. Everyone's focused on winning and being a team. And from what I've heard, going to the professional level and maybe at the NBA level, now you've got people like now is about money, people fighting for their lives, people fighting for their livelihood and their families. And then you also have the dynamic of veterans who may or may not be in a mentoring role, you know, because so I've heard about that political aspect. But what how did your m b A just transition compared to your college one. Well, I go to UM the draft, so spent about three or four days in New York. My whole entire families out there in New York City, flew them all out, put them up in hotels, and I basically had no time with my family. UM. I was doing media things, media training, I was doing events where has kind of helping kids camps, all this stuff around the NBA UM and around the build the brand that I want that I never even had time to really just spending the afternoon with you know my cousin who I had, you know, when I talked about my best cousin and my favorite cousin who's now in the Air Force who you know, it was in New York, but you know I only got to see him in passing and talk for a little bit with my uncle's and all my aunties. Um, and then draft night comes, and you know, I was trying to do so much for everybody else that A story that I haven't told most people was when you're sitting at that table, you know, they come and they're like, you know, for time you seeing hug the person to your left, hug the person to your right, which is usually your mom and your dad. You know, I had my grandmother and my brother over there and other people at the table, and I always regret that I didn't just go around that table and even you know, everybody at that table because it was a great moment. You got to enjoy that, but you're thinking about it. That's the start of me, you know, trying to do all this stuff everybody else, you know. And then I go up, um and I shake David Stern's hand, and I'm the first one to go back to interviews I'm the last one to leave that arena, you know, And then as soon as I get back, I'm thinking, finally I get to go out, party, hang out. I'm in New York City for the first time, all my families here, We're gonna enjoy this moment. And they're like, you got an hour to pack, You're on a private plane to Portland. Yeah, so, I mean, I'm getting all these I got all these suits, I got all these clothes here, and all this stuff that I've gotten in New York, and I just have to leave. Didn't you like a morning with your family? Because when I landed in Portland that morning, you think I'm not even a dressed I'm in jeans, a T shirt and like one of those little stringly line backpacks, and they have a freaking parade in downtown Portland's. So I'm coming to like, no time to do anything, no time with my family, straight to Portland's. Barely getting any sleep too. I'm in a parade of it seems like the whole city. And I mean, I'm not gonna say I was the savior, but you know that's kind of the feeling you get on. And I'm nineteen years old and I don't know how to handle this, Like you know, going on how the state was different being in high school winning three state championships. That was cool and all, but like this is like this is big time now the money is involved, you know. Now this is what people are talking about on ESPN all day. You know, that pressure is there and I'm looking at it like I'm nineteen. I don't know how to handle any of this stuff. You know, I'm just coming from you know where I had my whole entire day planned for me. You know. So now it's like you got this type of money, You've got this type of expectations, this little bit of freedom, this massive celebrity. You know, all those added up, you know what's what's possibility Because like college is definitely different because there's while you might be the guy on campus, there's a shared goal and and everybody walks to down and looks at the basketball team as kings on campus or the football team, but when you were the number one overall pick, I mean, it's just just at that professional level. Yes, So you know, so like no matter what happens here, you know, when I think about when we won the national championship with football, you know, like you could look at and be like, you know Cardel Zeke, you know, these guys who played a big part of it. But no, how State won the national the first national championship of the playoffs, you know, and college is always going to come back to that school. You know in the league. You think about when Brian and then one for Cleveland. Yeah, you know Kyrie won the you know NBA championship. He had the big shot. Lebron bought the championship back to Cleveland. You know, that's the storyline. You're here, you're not hearing you know more about the individual playing. It feels a lot more about the individual than it does in college. Yeah. I think it is especially today. Um and there's like a there's a business model and commercialization behind that. My my husband is in media and advertising and brand development, and there's a lot of stuff that he does, uh, sheds light and informs me about what is going on behind the business of sport. And because of the sneaker culture, because of MBA became just kind of being trendy these days, so fans will look to just a an athlete rather than the whole team. And I think that that definitely plays into it, and so so you have all this attention. And I think the one thing that a lot of people don't realize is that becoming a professional athlete, especially at the level that you were and being so famous and put on pedestal, is that there's a huge responsibility and obligation that comes with being a professional athlete. So rather than being able to spend time with your family, now you've got interviews, you've got meetings, you've got all this other stuff. You're traveling a lot. I mean, it's just a lot that comfortable with that amount of money you're getting paid. You know, that a lot of amount of pressure. You know, you have some expectations that you've got to take care of. And I mean it's not bad because you definitely get compensated pretty well for um, and you know, it's just a kind of the give and take. You know, with that amount of money that you can take care of your whole entire family and your family's family for years to come. You know you're gonna have to, you know, miss a couple of birthdays, You're gonna be on the road for some holidays. You know, you're you know, a lot of your time is going to be taken away, um, away from the family or something that might be a little bit more important to you. Um for you know, this basketball and for that conversation that you get. And now as you go to the NBA, now, just your your physical health becomes a part of the equation and everything. And before you even you know, so you go to Ohio State and you have surgery right before it the Now you go to the n b A and you have surgery before your rookie season. At what point is where is your physical health at this point? So it was about two months until it, um, until the summer after I got drafted. I want to say, if that before I was basically having a microfracture surgery. Um. I went in there, um thinking that it was, you know, just something minor and then that they were gonna go in and fix whatever, not thinking that it was going to be a major. You know. I woke up to like, you're out for a year, and I'm like, wait, I thought if it was like this, this, and this, we're gonna take care of it, not thinking that I didn't even know the possibility of being out the whole year was something even on the table. Wow, wait, did they they prep you before. So they did, so they did, um, but my understanding at that time was, you know it's going to be something like not a year, you know, several months. It might be a couple of months, you know, just you play, but a whole year sitting out like that's not something that was technically in my head of from that surgery. You know, it was, you know, go get cleaned up. We're gonna go get this fixed, and you know, either you can be coming back in a week or two or it might take a few months. But you know, the microfraction that I had, it just made more sense to be out for the whole entire year. But you know, waking up to that news, it's kind of like wait, hold on, like all this expectation you know, um that I put on myself and then that's out there. You know, it's it's it's tough to deal with at that moment. That's kind of traumatizing to is typically when you know, we talked about this before, but I've had four surgeries, but typically there's the whole physical therapy phase. You go to physical therapy for several months, and then surgery is the last resort and then you talk about the surgery, what kind it is, and they roll out the timeline and all that jazz So did. Was it originally because I know with one of your surgeries, it was supposed to be our Arthur scopic, which is where they insert three holes and they kind of do a very clean up of it. But the microfracture surgery is very serious and complicated. So was it originally supposed to be? Yes, So you're really supposed to be a go in and kind of see what's going on, clean it up. And then it was like, well, this is what it is. We're already in here. So they switched it up without even like telling you or I know that there was a possibility of you know, doing something while they were in there. That's not the case. But the year long surgery, like that's not you know, like I wasn't prepped for that. I was prepped that not. I thought was it's going to be something minor. You know, we could possibly do something to fix it up if we see anything else. But you gotta think, like, I'm not going in thinking to anything else. Is a year long You're out for the year, that's not. Yeah, I'm just thinking it could like at most it would be three or four months. You know, that would be worst case scenario. But my worst case scenario was a full year and something that obviously I dealt with throughout my whole entire career. After that, well, yeah, Arthur's copic, so I had arthroscopy on right shoulder, both knees. It's even faster now, but even back then, fifteen years ago, I mean, they want you moving like two days later, and you're you're out in like a month and you're starting to train or whatever. So you wake up that's that's that's a lot. I mean, and I'm still nineteen at this time. You're nine team and you're a rookie, and of course you feel the expectation of the city on your shoulders, and you thought it was just gonna be a couple of weeks, a couple of months, whatever. You wake up and they're like, you're you're out for the rest of the year. That must have been. That must have been a lot. I don't even if it was. And then you gotta think, like, you know, so now I'm just trying to figure out how am I gonna connect with my teammates? Um, I'm what am I going to do for the city. You know, they just had this big od parade for me, Like, how how am I going to contribute? What am I going to even be doing? Um? So, you know I didn't have the mindset I had then. You know, I'm not sitting there watching every practice and then doing my rehab outside of practice. No, I'm doing my rehab during practice. You know, I want to be there. I want to be doing stuff at the same time the team's doing stuff. So I'm not thinking, No, you need to be sitting here watching all these little things. You need to be in the film sessions and and just getting little things, you know, adding to your game, adding to your mental um about the game. No, I didn't have people to tell me that. You know, I'm nineteen years old. I just want to have fun. I just want to be around my teammates and enjoy you know, and this professional athlete. You know. And then you know, there was times where you know, I was seeing a therapist and trying to figure out you know, Okay, I'm not even thinking correctly. But Portland's a very small city, so for me, a lot of things would I would feel like the GM will bring me in and he's having a conversation about me, great, did you do this? Did you do this last night? And I'm like, how do you know that? Like, so now i feel like I'm being watched. So now I'm trying to hide even more so now you know I'm doing Were they asking personal questions and were they asking about you seeking help? No? You know they have the tent therapists, so you know, but Portland being so small, you don't realize that. You know, the the beat writer can literally go he's having dinner. I'm going to have dinner. I'm having fun with friends. You know, a writer in the city might have went out that same night and seeing me somewhere, you know, they're relaying this back to the GM on top of it, your seven ft tall and anywhere I go. So now you know. So now I'm really trying to hide. So now I'm not talking to nobody. I'm not opening up about anything because I just feel like I'm being washed everything I do. So now I kind of don't trust, you know, trust the therapist as much as I should have to get the proper help that I need. I'm not talking to, you know, the people I need to talk to. I'm not talking to coaches. I'm not talking to the trainer, you know, and telling them the truth to actually help me with everything I'm going through. Now, I'm just nineteen feeling like I'm all alone. It's me and my boy who's living out there with me. We're just trying to maneuver the city quietly without nobody seeing me, you know, doing stuff that you know most people wouldn't do. And it wasn't the right path. Well it was a hard path. Yes, yeah, I mean I think that a lot of things that you're talking about. I think the league and teams are starting to it's taking. It's taken some history and some time and events, and your story is one of many where they've started to make changes mental health. I mean, that's only reason why I created this show is to talk about mental health. And now I just visit it with Dr William Parham, who's the new mental health director for the m v p A, and they you know Dr Parham, he's a good Yeah, he's a great guy. Uh, if you ever need anything, he has even for retired players, he has offered his assistance. I know he works with Chian Yes, so, yes, I met him rookie transition. Oh really wait this summer, you said, or okay, yeah, I was one of the counselors. Are Ricky transition, so I said, in all of the little different one, Yeah, and they so him and Keion. The mental Health and Wellness program, which is associated with the nb p A just started last year and that they've you know, Dr Palms talked about this program. It's got four phases. He has now established a whole medical system. There's therapist and psychologists and every single NBA city and right, And there's also a level of privacy and anonymity so players don't have to deal with the things that you dealt with, even though it still continues to be an issue because a lot of athletes I don't want to seek help because they feel that the teams will hold it against them and coaches will hold all of that against them. And there are a lot of coaches that still do. And there are that old mindset. But you know, ten years ago, whatever it was when you were yeah, I mean that's what yeah, I mean, I was completely different back then. So here you are. You're you thought you were going to have just a minor surgery, you ended up end up being out for the rest of the year, and even at nineteen, you're doing the things to get help, but you're an environment where everyone's watching on, everyone's watching you. You don't know who to trust. People are kind of like, you know, cattle tailing on you a little bit, maybe because they don't mean to be, but it's you just kind of stand out and it's like, oh, there's Greg. And then you know, at nineteen, I'm thinking I'm not thinking correctly. I'm thinking like a nineteen year or not think anything negative towards me, that somebody was out the gateway or somebody, you know, felt a certain type of way to ruin whatever I thought I had going on in my head, you know, and ninteen you just think all types of stuff. You know, I'm not thinking, well, maybe you know, these people are just trying to make sure I'm good, making sure I'm going the wrong places, making sure I'm not doing this that's going to hurt me in the long run. Um. But you know, I wasn't reaching out to people to find that, you know. And at the same time, you know, like I had vets on that team, but I wasn't reaching out, you know. And then the guys I was closest with Brandon Royal LaMarcus, they just got drafted the year before me, you know, so we're all pretty young at that time. I mean, and Brandon was. He eventually went through his own health issues and and all of that. So everyone's just kind of figuring out their own system. And at that age, at nineteen, you don't know. I was still in college, like I did not I did know what I was doing. And when the psychological aspect of being injured, it's not as simple as going to rehab, and I was like, Okay, let's fix the body and make you make the return. It is. It's lonely, it's isolating because you're right, you talked about practice, but you can't be with the team because you've got rehab. And rehab, especially with that type of surgery, you're probably in there anywhere from two to six hours a day. Yeah, I too, because you're need to live as well. You gotta do all this stuff for your knees, um, and then you can't forget about the rest of your body because your whole body works together. Um. Yeah, it's some time time consuming. You gotta add the diet you need to be also, you don't gain extra weight while you know one of your limbs is a little bit weaker. Um. Yeah, And I think getting to know what matters to you and how much you enjoyed Ohio State and having that community and you talk about like your face lights up when you talk about the dorms and being able to have bunkmates and three room war roommates, like it was just it was acceptable to be to learn and to be coming into your own as a person. Um when you're in college, then um, well, now you know these guys looked as pros even in college. But you know, when you start making that money, your name is called. You know you're supposed to be a pro then you know. And I keep on saying, you're only nineteen years old, and a lot of us who are in that position are coming from families that's never been in that position. No more so, you don't really know how to end. You don't have a playbook on how to handle yourself in these type of situations around these professional people. You're just going vibe, you know, doing whatever you think is right and knowing how much family and community is important to you. And then add all the injuries that you went through over the course of your career, and already how isolating and tough it is to just deal with injuries period as an athlete. UM, that must have exacerbated your situation even more because you know, you just you want to be a part of the team, but your body is not allowing you to do that. And it must have been UM challenging. Five years I was with Portland, there was a lot of ups and downs from UM injury standpoint. But then when I look back at it, there was a way that I could be connected to the team. I was a party guy. I knew where the club, I knew which clubs to go to in Portland on which night I would have house parties, you know, ones that the guys can come through. UM. I was always the fun guy, you know, getting everybody drinks, everybody loosening up. You know that was that was kind of my connection with those guys when I wasn't playing UM, and then when I was playing, you know, I had already kind of built that little bit of reputation that you know, I was was gonna go out, I was gonna have fun. You know, I was gonna connect with some teammates this way. You know, if you wanted to find a club on a Wednesday, I know which one to go to, the low key spot to go to. Um, yeah, I kind of took that upon myself. You were the but those those role players are important. You're who was it not coach k somebody some another basketball coach. I think at the college level. In their book they were talking about the glue guys, and I mean, you're with your talent, you were more than just a glue guy. But because you couldn't contribute to the team, do you think you would have been the party guy or the guy, the fun guy if you hadn't been injured. If I had been injured and had a little bit more direction, Um, I'm not sure I would have dedicated as much energy into that part of my life. Um, because when I look back at it now, like I should have been the guy who was going to the gym two times a day, you know, just getting better, doing what I can to to uh not hurt myself, you know, not drinking as much. You know alcohol is not good on your body, you know, being the better diet guy, being the more um just stern, going by the book, doing what I can to better myself. Um, I think I put a lot of energy into stuff when I actually enjoy it and know this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And just at that time, I didn't have that direction or I physically couldn't be out there to do some of these things, so that energy went elsewhere. Yeah, I mean it was your it was your way of connecting. It's what you did the best that you knew at that time. And maybe because you just didn't get a little bit more coaching or mentorship, it lead you down a front path and it might have been fine. Uh, but was that when the alcohol entered into your life or so you started seeking help during your rookie season, But when did the drinking come into the picture. It was started more of my rookie season, so it was pretty early on. Yeah, I had money and now I had a lot of access to it um and I wasn't playing, so you know that that party and just started coming from But you got all this free time. It's not like you got to go to practice tomorrow. All you gotta do is go and get your knee stretched out and do a couple of legs exercises and get it lifted, get in the steam room. Like I'm not performing, I'm not around the team as much as I would be if I was playing. So in my head, it was okay to go out, you know and drink all night and then just show up and do what I need to do and go home. So that was another way to kind of keep into myself as well. Um that I started doing a lot of this stuff and then trying to hide it. Um So now I even I stayed away from the teammates and being around the team more. You know, now they're on the road, so I'm doing rehab. Was just me in the gym, you know, so you're not always traveling on the team behind and you're by yourself and you're so then who But at that age though, because during my time in college, there were other athletes there, um that had a lot of issues with alcohol. But at that age you can mask it because it's cooled the party. And at that time I saw a couple of several of my friends and I thought they look like they might have issues, But then they're the house that everybody wants to go and party at, so they're the cool kids on campus. There's there's the social butterflies, Like if you're looking for a party Sunday through Saturday, their house is the one to go to. So at that age, like you can play it off so well and masket, I mean that was it was the idea thinking do you know, especially you know, being professional, had the v I P Section wrote doll, you know, like it was a bunch of people around there, lots of girls, lots of alcohol, lots of fun and even at times we'd be like, hey, make sure you know they're not bringing the sparklers over here. We don't want people taking pictures over there, you know, so now it's private. You know that's very appilling to you know a lot of athletes, celebrities. You know, you want to do that stuff and not be seen. So you know, it was hiding playing site kind. You know, you expected me to be the party guy. You expecting me to be at the nice restaurant or you know, in the club somewhere in the corner. You wouldn't even know, um that I was there, but you knew if you asked me, I'll tell you exactly where to go, where to be at you're the guy to go to. I don't know if I was the guy guy. Uh and at what point do you remember where alcohol ends up turning into something of a more serious issue. So it goes from fun to now like to now dependency. Um. Well, there's two situations. UM. The first one was kind of I just remember and this is not um, this Importland's um. The first one when I realized that I had to go out and get drunk and I would take to Vicut and two perkoses, two uh pm tablets Adville or Thayland all um with two been a drill and I had to chase that down with alcohol just to sleep about four hours a night. And that happened for a good six months. And I was believing at the time. So those issues and I remember you and I both talking about our own issues at the panel. So that started during your rookie season, very not my rookie season, my third fourth season, because it was when the surgeries, you know, um just start piling up back back, So it was around the third or fourth season. Got it okay, and you know, I had so many pills to swift over from the surgeries you don't even think about it. And then when I looked at it was like, I mean it was time outside of that initial surgery where I was still taking you know, these pills every four hours, you know, and even if I wasn't in pain, I was just so used to it. I was just so dependent on it. UM that that's when I kind of looked at it like, Okay, this is a problem. And then after Miami season, UM, I was yeah, and I got arrested for domestic violence situation where I really looked at it was like, um, I'm a person that I don't even recognize. UM where I ended up going to rehab and I was on probation for three years. UM I got claimed for six months. UM. But that situation, I really like that I'm not that type of guy. I feel like I would never I feel like I didn't have it in me to put my hands on the woman. UM. And it happened. And when I look back at it, like one of these days, I got to have this conversation with my daughter, UM, and I really I couldn't look at myself for a while because that's just not I don't see that as me. That definitely wasn't me. And I lost myself And that was a big, big moment when I had to realize what all of the alcohol and the drugs and just my way of thinking in a way of handling myself the past that I was leaving towards. I think, and I think that moment that you're talking about, the incident with your ex girlfriend, uh, you know, not to keep delving into the past, but I think it's important to understand. I think a lot of people will just look at a look at one event or one incident and just want to label people and say, like he did this. But for me, I think it's important to delve into the past because it explains a lot of the things that lead up to that moment that might push somebody over the edge, and explain the struggles are paying or trauma whatever. It is the only time I'm going to bring up my notes so I can because your injury history is actually more expensive than mine. But so you had that risk surgery right before you go to college. Next year, you get drafted, and now I know that you thought it was going to be a simple surgery, but you end up you wake up, they tell you, the doctors tell you after your right knee surgery, you're gonna be out for the rest of the season, all right, So then that that goes down, you're out. You finally you come back finally make your debut about a year and a half after you get drafted. That's January two nine. In your NBA debut, you only played thirteen minutes against the Lakers, and then you leave with a foot injury, so you were out for two weeks. But then okay, so you're out for two weeks, you come back, and then the next month or maybe it was like a couple of weeks later, you injure your knee in that game, right, yeah, I think that season, nin end up playing games and then oh wait no, yeah I chipped my knee break. Yeah, oh yeah, that's my my real first season. Yeah, well a real season. But now you've got a lot of knick knack injuries that season. Yeah, so you you chip your kneecap and then you're out for three weeks. Okay, so then you're out. You make your debut, but you're out again for another season. Then it's your third season in two and ten, you have a really really good season, great start, and then in December it's not even you broke your knee cap and it's like that's that's another traumatizing event. You're carried off onto the stretcher. You fracture your left fotilla, and again you're out for the rest of the year. So I can't even say fracture because fractures like literally my knee kept broke half. It was like my head empty and the bottom, Oh my god. So then you're out for the rest of that year. So that's two thousand nine to two. Possibly came back, but then I refractured it, right, And then that when you were carried off the stretcher, you fractured, but you broke your snapcherr patella. Less than a year later, in November two, then you have a micro fractured surgery on your left knee. Right, So that's marks your third NBA season cut short due to knee injury. And then and then then we go to fast forward to the next season. You get another you get two more surgeries, and then that's February two twelve, which is now your fifth season in the NBA, you have Arthur scot Brick surgery on your right knee, which is now your fourth surgery. Seventeen days later, you have a similar situation which would happen with your what was supposed to be arthroscopy. But then they go in we've got to do the whole series microfracture surgery again seventeen days after your other surgery, and then the next month after that fifth surgery, and then you get cut. And now I'm back in Indiana by myself. I feel like I've let I don't know everybody down my family, myself, just expectations people in the basketball community. Like I really gotten a depressed state at that point after being cut, just you know, just the number one draft pick. I felt like a failure um and I had no idea what to do next. You know, I kind of cut a lot of people off, changed my number, and I remember like I think, I and leave the house about to go to the grocery store for like two weeks again, because it's hard for you to hide two people can spot you from the mild. And I definitely felt like people was making fun of me everywhere I went, Like I'm going everywhere, grocery storehood on every time I left the house and driving with a hood on. I just didn't want to bag. I bought a house in the woods so I can just get away in Indiana. That's a have you Have you been able to talk with anyone about those injuries? Because I know that in particular mental health and psychology. Like anybody that talks to me, they know that prim is passionate about mental health and psychology. And I have been in therapy. I got therapy, I started around thirty thirty one. I continue to do it. I think I'm just a firm believer that if we have teachers in school and coaches and sports, like, why not have a life coach right just to check in and do whatever. And the one thing that I've learned because a lot of people, and I think athletes do this, and particularly male athletes, they will diminish things that they experienced because it's like, why don't want to get help because somebody else had it much harder than me? You know. But I've learned that pain is pain, it doesn't matter where it comes from. And trauma is trauma, and different things can be traumatic for one person and not for another. But have you talked to anyone or have you been able to process the fact that your injuries were in some ways traumatic? Um? I picked up some therapy sessions where you know that's that was kind of a part and said, but recently, no, um, you know, I haven't continued a therapy session or something that's actually went them, Like, you know, you still got stuck me to do with from these actual injuries. I have not, because I think this is just why these interviews are so important, because it's it's offering people the human, humanistic side of being an athlete. And the most a focal thing that an athlete will ever endure while they're playing is injury, especially when it happens so severe and so quick, because we rely on our physical bodies and our physicality our talent that leads us to success. And when our vessel shuts down, when our car shuts down, but we can't do anything. It doesn't matter how smart you are, how you could be Albert Einstein like, that's not gonna get you anywhere. You know, you can dunk a ball like nobody else, but if you're hurt, then your whole world falls apart. That's um kind of what you said when we first started, which I agree with. You know, the sport um that a lot of athletes come, it becomes them because you've gotta think. So now I'm I'm playing basketball. Um my finances are good, so now I'm taking care of my family. I'm taking care of some end. You know, I have houses I got to provide for. I have business things that I'm involved in. Um and all this came from basketball, you know. And so when that's taken away, and when that check stops coming, it's like, okay, every aspect of my life was affected by me getting this check from playing basketball. And when that's taken away, like whoa, all these bridges are breaking down. Now hold on, how am I going to provide for this? How am I going to do this? You know, these people are only really hanging out with me because I was this celebrity from basketball. You know. It's a it's an issue that a lot of athletes struggle with, and I didn't realize how big it was until literally, like every every interview, there's an athlete that says, well, when I retired a lot of people stopped calling me. When I when I left the game, or when I got injured. You know, people people people got mad at me, or when I first got into professional NFL, n B, a MLB, whatever it is. Yeah, people coming out of the word work and all of a sudden, everybody's your best friend because they want something from you. So it's it's sport ends up being your livelihood in so many ways, your family, your community, your something to hold on, something to do maybe when you're when your parents were going through divorce, or you moved into a big city or you know. And I'm sure you've thought about it, um, but it's something that I can relate to. But when you look back at your injury history and how it's I mean, it's not like you sprained a couple of ankles. I mean, your stuff was super serious. I know there's been a couple of moments that you can pinpoint where well, I'm not sure if that led to that, but it's something that you circle. But can can you pinpoint anything? Have you thought about why you you got injured the way you did? Well, when I go back to that first one, um, the one thing we did, I've always had a leg limp differential, So I've actually had my other risks, my left wrist surgery and like the seventh grade UM, and then in the sixth grade, I had a hip fracture when I was growing so fast, So basically my leg was literally falling out my hip and they called it. At the last moment, I got two pens in my hip. So that's another surgery and two surgeries in sixth grade. Yes, sixth grade, seventh grade holding out, So you've had seven surgeries. Wow, and that started so so those two started in sixth grade, so leglift differential UM and my right hip from that hip surgery. So I always had a little wimp just growing up. So my body just kind of got used to it. Um. Even when I was here at the House State, I had orthotics, but you know, it made sure I still have my little slimp because that's just how my body was set up. Um. And when I got to Portland's, the first thing we did was fixed that with orthotics. So there are shoes that I still have that like the back of the shoe would be like this, but then my right one would be like this because the orthotic was so big. And so that's what happened against the Lakers. When I wrote my ankle, my orthotic was so big I literally rolled out of my shoe. Orthotics because basically, yeah, you're aorthotics are so thick it's almost like wearing a heel and your foot is you don't get the protection from the side to prevent you from rolling over. So yeah, so you think about it my body was so used to uh, that little limp that when I fixed it right away, now it was a hitch. And so now all this pressure was put on the other leg. And then having that surgery, I compensated. So now between surgery and just how my body was just healing that one and now my body so used to compensate, and I'm putting all that pressure on this other knee where I'm doing stuff, and my kneecap braks in half, and then just the complications from um the wire and my kneecap to just how my knee was. That's where the other micro fractures came from. After that, It is the body is an ecosystem and it will always change and shift to accommodate deficiencies, is what I've learned. Uh. And I was talking to one of my good friends. He's a renowned physical therapist and he works he works with the Canadian national basketball team, a ton of professional athletes, and I was talking to him about your injury history, because I wanted to come in and I was thinking about I said, because I thought about my own history. I had to stress fractures in my back by the time I was seventeen, Fortunately I was able to hide it when I was being recruited by colleges, got into do at three surgeries right shoulder August next month, right knee the September eleven, and then the next oct the leftney. So I had three consecutive surgeries in a row. And that is the reason. And I was telling you before the interview that I found out ten years later about how unhappy I was about how my career ended. So I ended up making a comeback, which started in tennis. Is tennis is easy, Like you can actually play professional Well no, I meant like you can play professional tennis without like in the NBA or NFL. You can't just go out and play and get picked up by a team again, you know what I mean. There's there's a lot more things that you have to go through, hoops that you have to go through. But um, but when I did my comeback, I was like, I looked at my history of injuries and there's so much more information about nutrition and diet and strength and conditioning. I said, I'm going to do it differently this time around, And so I trained smarter. I trained less. That's smarter. Right back, when when you and I work and competing and playing back long time ago is all about volume. Now it's about quality over quantity, Right, there's more about strength and conditioning and prehab and rehab and all that stuff. I think the like colates and yoga so much more needed. Map that's about, you know, how LuSE you are with all these movements, and not just how powerful you are in the movement. Yeah, well it's funny. So my comeback ended up with another surgery. I ended up tearing my labor m and my rotator cuff and I ended up getting surgery. But my point is is that for me, I think that there's two things. I think that my engine does not fit my frame, so I think my engine is actually too strong. It's almost like a Ferrari engine, but stuck in a pinto shell. So then there's that part. I also don't think I'm the best technical athlete. I'm a really good athlete, but I don't think i'm the I don't have the best technique with tennis, which led to a lot of my injuries. And then here's the third component, is that not I'm not blaming anybody for by injuries, but the information wasn't there at the time, and the supporting staff around, you can make wrong decisions. And I found that out when I was I think it was seventeen years old. I had those two stress factors. I went to the best sports doctor or throw in Tampa, Florida at the time, worked with all the books, all those professional athletes. I go to him twice and he's like, also needed PET. So I sit there for like two months going through PET and I can hardly get up off of a chair. My mom's like, we got to go back to the doctor. I don't remember this, but she told me as a she's she said, you can start crying, and it's like, I'm not going back to the doctor. We found another doctor a simple X ray, just a simple X ray, and he's like, your back is broken. You have two strax strays, two stress raptures. One is cold meeting it was it was active but then healed, and the other one is still hot. And it's because that one doctor who was supposedly the best in town didn't do X rays. And I share that story because even the best can make mistakes. And we put as athletes, we put our health and our livelihoods, and we trust these people to take care of us, but even the best of them make mistakes and make wrong decisions. And do you ever think about your journey and about like things that you would do differently in things that you look at how things were handled and you say that wasn't right. Well, that's kind of why you know I'm here. And while like nowadays, I try to do a lot of speaking to young athletes and just the people because I want to make this point that especially when you're an athlete, but as any person, you need to be more invested in yourself. You know, we we delegate a lot of things to other people which we're not professionals or the best that we're not the best doctor, so we listened to the doctor. But you need to understand everything going on with you as much as possible, you know. I mean, I'll start with finances. You need to understand this. You've got a financial person, but you need to understand what they're doing at least to a point where you know you can make decisions and you can give the final yes or no. You need to understand your body. You need to have kind of sections with multiple doctors who need to understand. Okay, look, this is what one person says this is what another person says, and let me take all this information and make the best decision for me. So when something happens, you can't blame somebody else or feel like you want to blame somebody else. Um, So you know, we need to start taking more into our lives and educate ourselves. Because I'm like, okay, well, maybe if I would have asked more questions, or if I would have let them know, all right, if there's other things you can do, Um, don't just go ahead and give me a surgery and I'm out for the full year. How about we talk about this and talk about my options. But at least you guys got to see exactly what's going on now when we get another look from somebody else and see, okay, is there a possibility I can play through this or do something else. You know, I might not have made that decision, but at least I would have felt better and how everything ended up if I was more knowledgeable and I asked the right questions or you know, just trying to learn as much as I can about the situation. I mean, yeah, it's hard. You don't it sounds obvious sometimes when you're talking about it, like, yeah, you gotta ask more questions, but you don't know what questions to ask if you don't know about the information, Like you don't know what you don't know. And that's a huge problem at the youth sports level because you know, you basketball, au, I mean just the overtraining, the over specialization, kids playing ten hours of sports at seven years old, and a lot of things, you know, And I'm hearing this a lot. There's so much specialization, Um, but they're not playing so like I mean, I don't know about well in basketball, these guys are working out so much. They're doing individual workouts to the point where it's like, um, a lot of these kids are really good and visually, but they don't know how to play the team's sport because they're not actually playing five on five. They're just working out with their trainer, you know, an hour and a half, two hours here, than another two hours in the afternoon. It was like, you know, you play a sport where there's other guys in competition, you probably should do a lot more five on five, three on three actually competing so you can get the natural field. So a lot of guys know how to play individually, but they don't have that field that you expect it would be player to have. Yeah, I mean that's a whole I've also heard because I'm fascinated and youth sports are so important to me, especially like what happened with my my experience. But then in terms of AU, I hear that the focus is on winning. There's more money, So now instead of making sure players are developing at all the different positions, you just stick them in one position and that's all they know and that's all they learned, which affects the college game, so they have a less less of a foundation and less of an understanding about or less skills. I should say, um in terms of just being an overall basketball because he's like, what is the high school kid doing with the trainer? Like we're about your high school coach, We're about to you this is the times you're supposed to learn the whole game, right you know? Um, in college you're even learning the better part of the game. You're getting better and visually you're getting more of a team game. And then when you're I should know that's when or I mean college you might have a trainer outside when you're done playing, and you're getting better in that way, but um, these kids at high school there and cost so much money, you know. You mean, you're getting a tutor outside of school where you're supposed to learn, and now you need a trainer outside of the team where you're supposed to learn as well, you know. So, I mean that's when we got to put a little bit more on the coaches and on the people that's actually supposed to teach them. Like, if you're going to teach my son how to be a basketball player, teacher, don't make me feel like I got to go out to somebody else to teach him individually how to be a basketball player, right right. It's a little thought, Yeah, I know. I mean because your support system. We put so much trust into the coaches and the supporting sty So if you're doing that, why are you're not asking the question like, well, how are you going to help this point guard on the team? Well, how are you going to help the center? You know, we gotta put more responsibility on these people that we trust and these certain situations of power and ask more questions, be more involved and being like Okay, I understand you're supposed to be a specialist at this, but you know, I want to understand how are you going to do that? You know, how are you going to do this? How is you know? How am I gonna fit in this equation? And and that's when I look at everything in our lives. We need to be able to put more on ourselves and be like, Okay, well, if I'm gonna put myself in this situation where I'm gonna work with you, how are you going to best help me? You know, figure out you know every not every aspect, but you know as much as you can about the situation that you put yourself in. And that way, you can't blame nobody else but you when something else happens, because I like to say, I don't want to blame somebody for this and this because I'm older and more mature now, but deep down in my head like I didn't even know and I trusted you, And we all have that little feel like, yeah, I trusted that. It's kind. But I won't say that now because I know you can't say that now. But I I had this conversation with my buddy who's a physical therapist, and he gets he works at the elite level and he can't say and be honest publicly about what's going on, because by being honest that means you end up throwing people under the bus a little bit, because there are bad physicians and doctors and trainers and coaches. We're not talking at the A, A U or youth sports level. We're talking about at the professional whether it's professional tennis, whether it's NFL, NBA, MLB. There are just mistakes happen, And I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing everybody there. There's a lot of great professionals, trained, good physicians, coaches out there, but just like they're good people in life, there are also others that are not so trained and not making great decisions. So if you like, can you is there an example or a moment with regarding your injury history that you said, if I could go back and do something differently, I would have and I and I asked that in the context of not blaming somebody, but using your story to help educate others, so we can learn from your story other my story as well, so people don't make people. People don't want to say mistake. Mistakes are a strong word, but we can just learn it and get better. Well, I mean just from injuries and being a professional. Um, when I look back at it, why not take that time away from the sport to gain the advantage mentally. So, um, you're not playing so sitting on every practice, sitting on film sessions. You know, add something to the game so I can't run around just dribble, add something to my handles, become better that way, bring out a chair, sit there and just shoot shots, you know, get my jump shot better, get my release better. Like, add something to the game away from that injury. Um, and just try to take a little bit more mental advantage. I mean, I know that's tough now, but you know, the guys who are the best of the best are the ones who are ded it, came in and putting as much into their profession that they should, the ones who are eating right, the ones who are add an extra time, quality time, Um, not just doing two workouts to do two workouts, but actually coming in and adding one thing to their game. You know, Like if you're gonna come in at night, I'm working on this one hook shot. I'm not gonna sit here two hours at night and just get up everything. No, I'm I'm coming in here for a reason. So I mean, and now realizing Okay, I was at this highest level, but I wanted to be at that great level. You know, those are the little things that I would add or I would have been and I would have paid attention to the team. You know, I would have been more of a coach while I was sitting out. Why not, I'm not doing anything anyways, you know, and you have all this free time as a professional after you you act like you don't or but you know, if you're working out in the morning times, your days usually done by one two pm, you know, so why not at that little bit of extra. I mean, I'm gonna be sitting at home or doing whatever. Anyways. Did you not have coaches saying, hey you should come in or hey you should work on this, or did people just assume because you're so talented and tall and athletic and gifted, that hey, he'll be fine. Um. I mean I think it was so many injuries and it was such an up and down. I mean, I know, um, that rookie year, you know, they really tried to have me along and had me on as many road trips as possible. Um. But then that young mindset, I thought it, you know, like, well, I mean, why you want me traveling when I can get this work done every day. We got all these amenities here, then on the road when we got the little hotel fitness center. You know, I mean, why would I sit here and just look at this practice when I can be doing all of my stuff right now, you know. And I mean I just I didn't have somebody in my life at that time that was being like Greg, maybe you should listen to them, maybe you should do this, maybe you should put more time in your craft. Um. But I didn't have that person around me, and I wasn't thinking that. Mentally. I wasn't that advanced. And so as you go through your career and you sign a one year deal with the Heat, and then it's like, at least on paper, it looks like things are, hey, he's coming back, he's not injured. You know. With the Heat, they reached the NBA Finals, you know, Um, but with everything that's going on, and then that incident happens with the ex girlfriend, what was going What was going on that year? So I've said this once before, that year was probably the funnest as just like being on that team, that's that team was just crazy. You know, they already won two championships. You know, the odds were always on them. And so I came into that situation. I'm like, don't mess nothing up. Like I told myself, I couldn't eat out. I can only eat out once a week because I'm freaking Miami. Like I never went over to South Beach unless I was going out, and um, I rarely went out there. I tried to do everything to not be that guy. UM. And so I remember I saw a picture of myself and they were like, what was this guy thinking? And I'm like, I was shooting the free throw in Miami teachers. I was like, that was the loneliest. I felt. I had great teammates on that team, great dudes, great organization, great coaches. Um. I was living with my ex at the time, and I don't even think we talked that much. You know, I was elsewhere. I was messing with multiple women every week, and this girl's living with me. Um. Like I had all these guys. I had the ray Alans for Shane Battier's briand Wade Chris Bosh, Birdman, you DAAs has song, like all these outlets, Bostra that I could come to. It has been through it all and I wouldn't. I barely talk in the locker room. Um, I barely opened up to anybody. I just kind of kept to myself, and it felt like it was just it was just bubbling, you know, because is it because you were you were afraid because of everything that had happened in the past, and you just didn't want anything. I didn't want to mess anything. I just wanted to get my championship. Like this is what I thought when I come. I wanted to get my championship. Rain. I'm gonna get it fit from my middle finger. If anybody got anything to say to me, I'm flipping them off with my championship Rain. Um. Because you had been through injuries, so you were trying to stay healthy, because you had learned what happened in Portland of people spying on you. You were trying to be good and you were trying to just I didn't want to mess up what they had going. They already won two championships. Don't mess that up. Just ride the wave. I didn't um give it my all on the court as well, because I didn't want to do too much and reinjure myself. So to try to go get the extra work. I'm like, nah, that would be too much. They told you only this amount of playing time, you know, because your body had failed, party had and doctors may have steered you in a wrong direction, so you had kind of lost a little bit of trust. And I'm just I'm diving in so I'm able to kind of dissect why why you ended up doing things. So now you're isolated or or insulated in this bubble. And I mean I felt it, you know, Um, and then uh, I was really a indoger. So like I wouldn't drink, you know, six days, but that seventh day, I'll be drinking off, especially if it was a day off, I'll be drinking all day. You know. If I was going to eat bad, then I was going to eat bad. You know, I'm not a cheap milk guy. I'm a cheap day guy, you know. So, Um, when I would do something, it would be over the top, so a lot of that stuff. But then I would hide it so well, so it was like six days I'm hiding everything that when I finally do it, it's like I'm doing it big. There's a lot of athletes people in general like that. There's actually a lot of successful people I would say like that, I am very much the same way, where it's kind of an all or nothing personality, a person of extremes where but in some ways it ends up backfiring because if you limit yourself, so it's like I'm not going out, I'm not going to do a cheat meal, I'm not gonna drink, I'm going to focus. I don't want to hurt myself. I'm doing all this stuff and then it comes out in bubbles and the surface at the end of the week. And then that's when it's like it's too much mentally to handle. You got to release all that energy somewhere. For me, I felt like that whole year I just held so much hand um, so much anger, so much thought. Um, there's so many up and down situations in my head that that's where that situation when my ex is kind of it was just an explosion of me. And then I became like I've barely gotten fights with men, so to find somebody who I've had a relationship with at that time, Um, like I said, I didn't recognize the person I was. Do you remember that night what happened? Okay, yeah, so at that point I know you say was one of the events that kind of triggered you to kind of wake yourself up and and let you know that something clearly wasn't right, that you needed to change some things. And what happened. So what happened after that? UM? So just UM, I had to go to rehab I had to really look at something, UM, and what kind of what kinds of things were you? Were you doing at this point honestly working out rehabbing, just still trying to figure out I still wanted to play basketball anymore. UM. I was trying to figure out who I was. UM. And then I end up going to China. UM. I played a year in China. UM. It was different. Yes, the travel. I remember one of the playing rides we had, you know, the three exit row seats. It was seven feet me seven, one coach, and then a six nine bigger center on the team. It was us three and it was just like we were all like, come on, you couldn't spread this out. But I mean the food, the culture being that far away. UM, meeting Chinese people, oh gosh, that was when they would ask for the server was yeah, yeah, that was the biggest I open like she's calming, calmed down, that was an it was like you kind of saving patient. What's going on, it's coming um now, just uh, that experience was definitely different. But then to come back and still have to deal with being on probation. Um, you know, uh, I don't want to get in trouble. You know, I didn't want to end up going to jail for I mean, I spent one day and that thing I would never want to go back. Um. And it wasn't even the full twenty four hours. So UM, that's one thing that changed in me. You know, I was in there and I was like, I never want to do this again. Um. But also, you know my girlfriend at the time being pregnant. Um. Now, knowing that you know I'm going to have a baby on the way, I really need to figure out who I am and the person that I'm gonna be. And later groundworks well you know the groundworks already late. But what path am I going to go down to say that for when this baby girl comes? You know, what life do I want to have or build towards when she's here. Um. And that was probably the biggest change for me, is my baby girl is realizing you know, I've done some things in my life. You can't hide it, Just own it, um and be ready for you know, she's going to find a lot of stuff out about you, but the person you are now, you can show her that you know here say you know, she's gonna hear something, she's gonna ask some questions, but you know by being an example of a person that I want her to see. That's the biggest thing that made me change and made me the person that I am now and how I think I'm gonna mover through life. I think that that's that's awesome and it's fun. You light up about Ohio stating you certainly up about your daughter, and I can tell that that is your that brings you purpose and that is my She is my wife now you know so, Um, before you know, I would just make decisions to kind of hide. But now my decisions are made when I know that somehow she's going to find out, and knowing that I got to create this life for her. I'm not doing anything bad or negative that's going to affect my family life. UM, And I want to be the person that she can always smile at and call Greg Gregory Odinda. So when you were dealing with your alcoholism and dependency with all that stuff. For anybody who is out there and going through their own struggles, how are you able to get out of it? Or do you still struggle with that? Do you? I mean where are you? And because I want to laid the road back for people who are who need help? Yeah, I mean mine, for one was rehab. Um. You know, just started drinking in high school. Um. I wasn't drinking every day in high school or college. Um, but I was still drinking. Um. And really when I went to rehab and then for six months I was cleaned, like it kind of made me feel like, okay, you can you can actually stop. Um. And what year was that was? When? Did? Was it right after the right Well? Actually I thought it was right when I got back from China. Maybe yeah, But I'm not going to say I am never had a drink again. Um. But I learned some stuff about me. I learned I really don't like hard liquor, like my next day hangovers from you know, dark or light liquor is terrible. So now when I drink, I only drink wine. You know. I might have a beer every now and then, but I don't like it. Um. I've learned things about myself that kind of brought me to Okay, Well now you can kind of handle things differently, you know. Now you know, I'm not doing excess. I'm not a college drinker. I'm not just drinking whatever you put in front of me, or you know, taking ten thousand shots. What do you think that's allowed you to put the brakes on? What do you think that allowed me to put the brakes? Yeah? Like what helped you? Is it? Is it mindfulness? Is it a sense of relief? Is it coming to grips with whatever happened in basketball? Like? What allowed you to heal? Right? Because everybody has different coping mechanisms? And for me, For for me, it was you know, it was I used food as a way to control or to numb. I talked about know my eating disorder, and I was more restricting a food that allowed me to numb anything that I was feeling. For you, it was alcohol. But what gave you you know what I mean? What gave you? You're like, it's okay, I don't have to use those things, like I feel at peace with myself. Well you just said it. I'm not trying to number anything, you know. Um, yeah, I still have injuries that I'm dealing with, but I'm not trying to number my body anymore. I'm not trying to numb my thoughts. Like if I was to go, I would have a few glasses of wine with some friends. I'm just there to have a good time with my friends. I'm not sitting there and trying to hide something. Well, I'm not drinking just to finally me like, well, I'm not going to not think about this or not talk or speak about what's on my mind. I'm not trying to numb you know, these negative thoughts going through my head right now. I'm just trying to be happy and trying to enjoy life. So when I look at it that like I'm not playing forty minutes a game or trying to play for you man, it's a game and killing my body. That to the point where I'm just drinking tonight where I ain't got to think about my back hurt and all night, you know, like I'm not going through life in that aspect anymore. But for me, um, it goes back to I really think that at that time, a lot of times I was really trying to number. I was trying to number my thoughts. I was trying to number my body from hurting. UM. I was trying to numb the outside noise that I would hear, either from social media or from the expectations I had. You know, UM, I'm trying to satisfy what this fan said to me or what I thought the fans feel of me. I wasn't trying to numb all those voices. UM. And now I'm just trying to live life and be happy for me. And I think at that point that's when I kind of looked at myself and be like, dude, I don't have to do anything for anybody else. I'm not trying to kill all that. I'm just trying to be happy. And I think that's what kind of got me into a better mindset. But I'm not going to say that therapists and going to a meetings and being more open and honest with the people in my life that I trust that I can have these conversations with. UM, those helped me as well and still continue to help me. UM. It sounds like you're it was a shift in perspective because it feels like for so much of your life you have been put in position where you're doing things for other people. And remember when I first started UM and I talked about draft day, I was listening to them people, and I felt like I was just doing it because that's what they told me to do, and that's what that's the knowledge I'd like to go back to. It's like I wish that day, you know, I felt like I set the tone instead of you know, celebrating enjoying that moment with my whole entire family, I was just trying to do with somebody asked of me, and I didn't enjoy that moment. I think that's going up so high. And then that was the turn. Literally before I even walked upstairs to shake David Stern's hand, I was already doing that. Yeah, I think that you know you especially because of your personality, because you you are so warm and gentle, and you ended up doing things for other people because you don't want to let them down. And now it's like a shift in perspective where you're like, it's okay to be a little selfish. I'm gonna do me. I'm going to focus on me and what And also like as you were moving through your career, as we kind of put a bow on everything, because of your status. I feel like a lot of people kind of put slapped labels on you, like he's a tall guy, he's the athletic guy, he's in the next Bill, next Bill Russell, He's the decade Player of the Year, and then Bust Biggest Bust or whatever. So I wanted when I came into this interview, I said, you know, Greg deserves to write his own story rather than let everybody write his story. And there's so many the articles that are out there are your words, but they've been created by somebody else. I think that that's the fun thing about the video is like you can we can hear it from Greg himself. So if I were to give you the opportunity, we know what happened in the past, but now it's about the president of the future. What would you like for people to know about your story the way you see it as today and who Greg Oden is. Um. I'm gonna I think we spoke on in uh my story. It was a lot of highs, really quick event for me. UM. I felt like, well in my path there were loaves UM dealing with just a little bit of addiction, UM, isolation, depression, UM and honestly not knowing who I was. UM, But now I kind of look at it because of my daughter. You know, I have to be me. I have to enjoy life. I have to be happy, UM, and I have to do these things so my daughter can see what that type of life looks like. Excuse me, God, what comes from because I've been talking to you too much. But no, like I enjoy you know, just the times I get with her, um, and then going through life, making better decisions, being able to look back on my life and me like I would usually handle things like this, I've had these experiences. Now let's be better, you know, Let's let's do the hard thing. Let's make the hard choice, you know, learn about these things, take time to do stuff, oh, or something to drink. It's just like a little tickle. Now I totally understand. Whereabout I basically just write up your throat is basically what I did. Know. You told me we weren't gonna be here to one third and I looked up, and I know I looked at the time, I was like, oh my god, no, no, I just I just really want to be happy, would be a better person, better example for my daughter. UM. But I also want to be, uh, a person of happiness, of positivity after all my ups and downs that I'm looking at life and a positive life. UM. Any situation, UM, with a little bit of education, a little thought process, and doing what's simply best for you. UM, just bring a little smile to somebody's face, a little positivity and kindness that I feel like this world is needed. Um. And that's the type of person I want to be. That's the type of person I'm gonna be. I'm going to help out this world as much as I can, and I'm just going to enjoy life from that aspect. I mean, if my story can help somebody, inspire somebody to be better or make a better decision, that's what I'm here for. I enjoy you know, using my life experiences to do that. So multivational speaking, anybody wants to I can help, Oh yeah, that book deal whenever, but no, UM, doing what I can. Like I grew up on Boys and Girls Club trying to do stuff to helping that help kids who you know, just enjoy the game of basketball, which is one of my passions. You know. I know I've had some downs and ups from basketball, but I still love it. I'm the guy to watch Sports Center and Game Time every day. Um. But also I'm so happy to be a dad to that beautiful little girl. She is so cute. She's gonna be so tall in two years. Uh. Greg. I want to just thank you so much for coming on and sitting here with me for a really long time and sharing your story and everything. But I really do think that it was it is one that needs to be heard, especially at this point in your life, because I can tell that you are you are really entering a new chapter of your life. And that's not to say that there might not be some There will be ups and there will continue to be downs, as everybody's life is. But I really wish you to us it's I'm excited to see what's ahead. Thank you for having me, Um, Thank you so much. I really hope you enjoyed today's best of episodes. Stay tuned as we prepare for season three of the next chapter. Can hardly wait for all of you to dive into this new content coming up. If you're interested in checking out some of the other episodes in the meantime, just visit our show page on I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcasts, and to watch the full version of these interviews, you can head on over to YouTube just search for the next chapter with prims rippon Bat. Of course, subscribe to us, like us, give us star rating. 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