The Next Chapter with prim s ripa Bad is a production of My Heart Radio. Hey everybody, it's prim. Welcome to the Next Chapter, presented by Baron Davis and Slick Studios. Okay, so, over the next several weeks, we are going to be re airing some oldies of the next chapter and in this best of series. For some of my newer listeners out there, here's your chance to connect with some great content that you might have missed. And even for those who had listened to these interviews, I would encourage you to have another go at it because it's almost like rereading a book. Our interaction with the content, what we absorb and understand and take away. It's always changing because we ourselves are always changing. And I know this has been the experience for me for various reasons. I've had to re listen to some of these interviews, and multiple times. Some of it was because I used it for the research I'm doing on athletes in my doctoral program. And every time I reread the transcript or re listen to these interviews, it's almost like I have a deeper understanding of not only the guest, but the topic as well. I should also mention that while we are re airing some of these old episodes, I will be working on the next season of the next chapter. So yeah, exciting. I guess it's not really a break, but it is a break from some new content at least. So today we are kicking off this best of series with the Doug Baldwin interview, and on a personal level, this conversation with the former Super Bowl winning wide receiver was really really meaningful for me because it was my first big interview when we launched the show in and it was a big get because Doug is someone who doesn't open up to just anyone, and to have the opportunity to sit down with him talk for over two hours about how his entire identity was wrapped up in football and also how difficult it was for him to leave sport was really moving, and I think in some ways it was for him to especially at the moment when we reread his retirement letter. So, without further ado, here is the first of our best of series with Doug Baldwin's talk about the ultimate transition, it's transitioning out identity. Had people say, weren't you get reel that volleyball player. I was like, well, actually, funny enough, I'm so gappy. I'm here objecting. Check on two three. We to truly love somebody, you have to understand when war in order to provide yourself what's healthy or real. It's the same thing for empathy. In order for me to be empathetic to anybody else around me, I have to be empathetic to myself. All yours drink. Don't know what we're doing, but I was like, oh, I'll do it. You didn't really explain it, but welcome to the next chapter. With crim soripathy, you were like laugh after football and on this show you can have your cake and eat it too. There's levels to it, right. So when I was seven years old, I wasn't the best player on the team. Um you know that. Through the years, then I became the best player on the team, and then it was recognized as I was the best player on the team, and then I started to be I'm celebrated and put on a pedestal as the best player on the team. And then I got to high school in same thing. Then it's just another level and then you get you know, you get scholarships two schools to play football, and then you put on a pedestal again, and it just reaffirms its identity that you're building and really has nothing to do with it. Then with football, Um so, everything I was doing off the field, who I really was, what my passions were, what I really enjoyed. Like I played legos, I still play legos to this day. You know, and not many people know that, um not that I share it, that I share its effective is a whole another divide of who I am is be right. Welcome to the next chapter. I'm your host, Prince ripple Path. This week's guest is former Seattle Seahawks wide receiver Douga. Doug played at Stanford University. Despite going undrafted, got picked up by Seattle, where he would go on to spend his entire eight year NFL career with the Seahawks, making back to back Super Bowl appearances in two thousand, thirteen and fourteen, winning one, making two Pro Bowls, and finishing as a Seahawks third all time leader in receptions and yards. Now, I've known Doug for several years, and the one thing I know about him is he doesn't just sit down with anybody an open up. As you'll hear later in this episode, the moment I found out this was his first and only interview he's given since announcing his retirement. I was pretty overwhelmed with gratitude that he trust me and sharing his story. So when that was removed from my life, really trying to figure out how I fit into the world and truly who I was. I made the trip out to Seattle last October, which is when this was recorded, and we did it at his favorite restaurant, which might explain the ambient noise in the background. As I mentioned in my introductory episode, which if you haven't, I highly encourage you to listen to it because it'll give greater context about this series and also my interviewing process. But the five key areas I'll explore with Doug are Number One, his childhood in Florida and how he first developed a relationship with football at six years old. To how Doug's identity became so deeply intertwined with football, making it that much harder to leave the game. Three the big events that occur over the course of this twenty plus years in football, including a slew of injuries towards the end. For his retirement, we actually read his entire retirement letter. The one he tweeted out last year, and you'll want to tune in for that because it's an extremely powerful moment. Lastly, we'll talk about mental health, including the depression he experienced shortly after retirement. And just to be clear, I don't necessarily hit these five areas in chronological order, because that's just not the natural flow of any conversation. It's more of a guideline for me knowing those are the five key elements I want to touch on with my guests at some point during the interview. All right, that's enough for me without further ado, Let's bring in today's guest, ladies and gentlemen, Doug Baldwin, and we begin to interview with a little surprise me birthday thank you. I did. I intended to do that while we were filming, and I don't. Oh we are filming. Great, you give me ice cream and cake. I'm good. Cat's out of the bag. Wait, you didn't do a wish. You're not gonna do a wish. You're just gonna go. You're just gonna keep eating a while it's on fire. So do you make a wish? At least I did. I had to think about it first, but I didn't want to wait to eat the cake. Would you wish for kind questions that? So you're expecting me to slip up in this comment. I am not. This is all about beings. We're all about being You gave me cakes, so I'll be as open as I'm possible. By the way, I'm not sharing my cake. I know you're not. I was. Actually I was about to ask. I'm like, clearly, this dude's not gonna know because now you've like dug into and now there's like wax all over the chocolate and ice cream. Because I wanted to set the tone for the interview and say, on this show the next chapter with crimps Rife fact, you can have your cake and need it too. I like that You're welcome. The one thing that I want to say off the top is that the last time we saw each other, that was in twenty sixteen, and um, I was interviewing you for an NFL countdown piece and that was super fun. But a lot has happened in three years. You know, you were, um still playing football, You were with the Seahawks. You were engaged, weren't you? Were we because I think we might have been engaged at the same time you were engaged in twenty sixteen, and then I was still in broadcasting. I was at ESPN, and then since then you've hung up the cleats. No longer at Seahawks. I'm kind of making a career transition. I'm no longer at ESPN. We're both married. We're both married. The first time we met was, Um, you came on First Take and I happened to be hosting it, and I remember our conversation. The dialogue of first take is very as we all know, surface opinionated. You went a more um, subdued look, but you look very nice. Let's a little bit more alloud, very heavy, he announces. But the one thing I remember when during that conversation was Um, I was like, you know what, Doug is different. He just seems different. And you seemed very introspective and thoughtful. Afterward, as I decided to reach out to you, you know, to do that that piece on you about mindfulness and meditation, how you use mental imagery to help your game? Is that how you would characterize yourself as introspective, introspective, thoughtful. It's all very nice compliments. I don't know how I would describe myself Uh, I like to learn, you know, Um, life teaches me lessons, so I just I want to pay attention to them as they as they come to me. What have you learned since since that time that we saw you? I feel like so much? However you want to Yeah, I know, I know that's a very loaded question. Is It's like when you first see somebody, you're like, oh, what's going on? How are you doing? You know, what's new in life and people? So everybody just does the not much and then back of your head you're like, no, there's a lot going on, a reel of things going on. I mean, just to keep it in general, I've I've learned a lot about myself, you know. Um, there's a lot of stuff woven into that. Again, it's a loaded question, but um, going through the process of getting married and then um, you know, really coming to grips with my mortality, uh in a lot of ways as it pertains to football, um, and then obviously retiring, you know, all those things together. You it's been a process. Your four months from your announcement, and I know maybe the thought process starts sooner, but you're you're still kind of like in the thick of it, No, I would disagree. Actually, I think I'm out of the thick of it. For um, probably about two to three months, I was in a deep depression. Um. You know, a lot of it was just based on the transition obviously, and um, other things going on in my life. But I've been playing football since I was seven years old, six years old, and so I have known nothing different. You know, my whole identity was wrapped around football and performing and um, you know, seeking that validation, that false affirmation and a lot of and a lot of those ways. UM. So when that was removed from my life, really trying to figure out how I fit into the world and truly who I was outside of it, you know, I had to come to grips with a lot of things, um, and answer a lot of questions or ask questions that I didn't even know the answer to. UM. So I would say I'm out of the thick of it. I'm not. I'm not naive enough to say that I'm done with it, because I know how easy it is to slip back into that mode. Um. You know, again, I've been conditioned this way for the majority of my life. So it's not it's not gonna be easy transition. But I will say that I feel like I'm on the on the other end of it. I'm on the positive side of it, and I do feel much better than I have and uh, you know, to this process, it's good. Um. You know when you talk about going through that confusion an and or depressive state, when when was it? Was it before the season? Was it during the injuries? When the depression? Yeah? Um, no, that it started probably six weeks after the announcement. Okay, so it was it was a process, So it didn't happen before the announcement, because I feel like there's a decision making journey that everybody goes through, and some of it is the athlete making the decision. Some of it is our bodies having to dictate the decision. And I know, I think it was after the Chiefs game last year and you're going through all these injuries and you got the chance to play, and you mentioned how grateful you are just to be on the on the field with your team. Um, but you also characterize the twenty eight season as the season from hell just because of everything you've been through. So I'm I'm wondering if at what point did you start thinking about the retire it my second year in the NFL. That was because when I was doing that piece with you about the mental imagery we talked about and how that was a really tough period for you. I think that if if everybody is honest with themselves, you know, no matter how much we boast about, you know, our abilities or um, this perception of confidence that we exude, you know, there's always this insecurity in the back of our minds, you know, of of what we're really worth, what our value truly is UM. And when you're in the sports industry, entertainment industry in general, you always have to be in the midst of it of proving your value, of proving your worth UM. And that's I mean, that's not to say that it's you know, outside of the normal realm of a career or a profession. However, it's it's under a microscope and it's for the public to view and to comment on all the time. So and when I was going through those struggles in two thousand twelve, there were a lot of question marks just you know, how how I wanted to live, what kind of person I wanted to be in this world, in that industry, um, and what kind of legacy I wanted to leave, And so those questions started to come up, and really trying to figure out, um, you know, what the trajectory was. And and it was kind of put on hold afterwards, you know, I was I think I was too young to really reconcile those questions and to really understand, um, the mental process that I needed to go through in order to really come to conclusions on anything. Um. You know, so I I kind of put it on the backburner. And we we had success. We went to the super Bowl, you know, we UM, I went to another super Bowl. I had some success individually, and then you get to a point where, okay, what's next, you know, And and I started looking out on the horizon, and then injuries start to pilot up, and my body starts to feel different. You know. You always here the rumors or or the comments from older guys about you know, when you turn thirty, your body just does something different, you know, UM, And it was true. I I I woke up in the morning and my body was just different, and I couldn't um, I couldn't really understand what had gone wrong, right, Uh. I think that's just the athlete mentality. You think you're immortal in some respects, and you feel like you can just get up in the morning and do whatever it takes to accomplish your goals on the field or on the court or whatever it may be in your arena. And that was just not the case anymore, you know, I was. I was trying to find different avenues to reach that peak again, and UM never came to fruition. UH. And then the injury started piling on and surgery started piling on, UM, and then I was forced to answer some of those questions again, you know, what does my life look like twenty years from now? What's my quality of life look like? Especially with me starting to build a family and wanting to be able to pour everything into that. You know that those priorities start to change, start to look at things differently, you know, especially when UM, there's just more evidence, more uh medical studies being done, and so you start the question things. You start to wonder, like what what does the future hold, what does it look like? UM? So that paired with the fact that my body was deteriorating UM, and you know, to this day, I wouldn't be able to play football at the level that would resemble anything of my career. So you know, it was a tough decision, but I had to make that decision. He had shoulder surgery, and what did you have done to your shoulder and knee specifically? Was it Arthur's topic? I mean, I don't even know how to describe it repairs. At some point it will I'll have to get a knee replacement, probably both kneeds. It's a lot. What's so tough just to like dive into this part with injuries is that as an athlete, we're so used to using our bodies as a vehicle towards to propel us towards success. And you know, when you're younger, you're so used to being gumby and getting knocked down and popping back up, and when you're seventeen or eighteen, I know that's so good. Now you wake up and you sound like a Rice Crispy treat and everything's popping. You know, you're walking out of bed. But like when you're seventeen or eighteen, when you might have experienced those same injuries, I'm sure you did as a shoulder or knee, but then the difference back then is you just take a couple of weeks off or maybe a week off, and then it just goes away. I noticed a change in my body my junior year at Duke. It was my shoulder surgery in August, my right knee, the real September eleven, the September eleven, and then October eighteenth was my left knee. So they're like, you know what, let's just just do it all one sitting and so to empathize with your situation when you have them so close to one another, you're like, okay, I just had my shoulder, Like, am I gonna be okay to use my shoulder so I can walk on crutches or to hold myself up for the leg. It's a huge change. It's a challenge, I'm sure it is. UM. And my wife had had some comments as well, right, because again, I'm still an athlete at hard So there's this mental I don't even know what to call it. This just this animal within me that wants to go and just prove myself again, over and over again, and even at the detriment of my own health. UM. But my shoulder surgery and the doctor came out and spoke to my wife and he basically told my wife like, look, this is bad and it's not going to get any better. And he basically said, I don't know how he how he was doing this, and that really affected my wife, you know, it was it was it was hard for me to see her and that much agony for me, and then for me to turn around and say, well, you know, I negate that I'm still going go out here and destroy my body for the sake of what at that point, you know, I want to be able to hold my my children, you know, when they're born. I want to be able to play with my kids. It's strange because during my career I never thought about those things. Those things were never a priority for me because it just I didn't they want to top of my mind, you know. But again, as you get older and you start to think about what the future looks like, I can't imagine not being able to pick up my children, you know, play basketball with my son, like I want to be able to do those things. It's hard for me even to say it now because there's still a part of me that's like I want to I want to figure it out, you know. I'm I'm a fixer. I'm I like solving problems, and so this is a problem I don't want to fix, but it's you know, it's I'm human, I'm flesh and bone, and so there's no fixing that other than surgery and then essentially sitting your ass down. That's what they told me. Sports is unique in that everything seems very fixable, right, especially when it comes to fundamentals like technique. It's like, okay, if you're you know the route you're running um a forehand to serve, you know, ng through weakness, you can go to the gym and you can tweak some of those things. But then when it comes to injuries, end life, some things are like the only fixable aspect of that is acceptance for athletes that had to shut down their careers. I know for me personally looking back at it now, I'm sitting here at thirty eight, Like, had you asked me it, you know, was I okay with I'd be like, yeah, I'm totally cool. Yeah I'm a rock star. Like good, I'm still working out, you know, my career is doing well and broadcasting whatever. Like when I started to change, and I you know, you kind of mentioned where your body takes a turn, But I think mentally, you also take a major turn too, and I feel like your your experience or maybe you're way ahead of the game and you've already experienced that. And that's where I was like, oh wow, I'm not okay with this, Like I'm not okay with how my career ended. And I've been carrying this for so long if you're going through all these injuries and surgery, and on one hand, the dog, the competitor and athlete is like, I can do this, I can go back, and actually, I'm sure in the sports world would be like, absolutely, he can come back to this. But then, of course your wife who's like right next to you and loves you not for the athlete but for who you are, and she's probably in your ear like what are you doing? You don't have to prove yourself anymore? How do you like negotiate that? My wife didn't say that, didn't didn't She's always been supportive of whatever I wanted to do, right, but now some things don't need to be said now. The emotion, the facial expressions is the worry, you know, I mean that that was it was very apparent. To navigate all of that. It was a challenge because it was all new to me. Right, Like, I'm again to your point, I'm this athlete who thinks that I can just accomplish whatever I put my body into and that I will win. And for the majority of my career that's served me well. I was successful at that. But there comes a point when you start to realize, like I said, that you can't do that, you know, and um it, it even sounds foreign to me now as I say it out loud, because there's still a part of me that wants to say, no, that's not right. I can accomplish whatever I want to accomplish in some in some aspects that's true. But when it comes to my body, like if my leg is broken, I can't run on it. It's broken, right. Um, So there's there's that part of it. The emotional aspect of it is more so of me, like you said, the acceptance part, coming to grips with mortality, but also realizing that, you know, football is just a small sliver of my life. Um even though it at this point it's been the majority of my life, it's still only a small sliver of my life. And it's and it really doesn't define who I am as a person, right, Um, I was kind of joking with you and the text message on the way up here. You know, you say people love me, but really these people don't know me. When I left again Aim again, you had all this this affirmation of who you were and what your value was. But then when it's when it's no longer there, you're kind of seeking it in other ways, and sometimes it's gonna be an unhealthy ways. You had a bubble Germaine had two drops and lead the interceptions, and you were the two guys who helped rally this team down here. And overtime. What about the way you guys overture? I don't know. That's just what the deestrian average, mediocre receivers due. Do you remember the morning or the day when you made the decision or when you just knew that, Okay, I'm gonna have to pull the trigger. It wasn't one day. It was this gradual process that I went through. My man be as well. I huh we we I We'll go to the Super Bowls again. Being I. You know, when you're in the treatment room every day trying to recover from something that you're basically not going to be able to recover from since you have to manage the pain, right, um, you know, you just you have multiple conversations in your head. And for the most part, I won those battles, but they just kept piling on and kept piling on and to the point where it's like, Okay, now you have to do something about it, um. And then also what is your quality of life's going to be afterwards? So it wasn't just one thing, It was the entire process for some athletes when they have not just one injury, but just a series of injuries, especially elite athletes. Everybody has such a high pain tolerance. Like you, you just learn how to deal with everything, um, physically, mentally, emotionally, right, But then when you're dealing with multiple injuries to your body, it gets a certain point for a lot of athletes, I think where the sport doesn't become fun anymore because you're just having to wake up and you can't play the game that you love to play the way you want to, or you can, but it's so painful that it just zapps the fun out of it. I know that's happened to a lot of athletes. Had it happened to me Where I was like, I just want to live my life without having to wake up and be able to go down the stairs like a normal human being or where heels and not have to limp down the stairs. And I remember a specific, uh event. We were at practice and it was just the receivers and we're going through our normal routine and we had to run some routes and it was one route where I had to plant on my right foot and go to my left. You know, I shouldn't have been practicing. My body was done at that point, and I just remember in my head telling my body, like, you know, going through the mechanics of what I was supposed to do and and visualizing it so that I can go out and do it, and my body just said, no, it's weird experience. And I'm sure you've experienced it before. Your body tells, you know, we're gonna do it this way. I tried to plan on my right leg, but my whole body turns and forced me to plan on my left leg to go the same way, and I couldn't do anything but laughs that it never happened to me before. And at that moment, I think I realized, like, Okay, something's something's different, right, because this is this is when was that? What day? What month? It was early on in the season. You know, I was in the I was in the back of the line, so I let everybody go before me, um, and I just you know, everybody's doing it the same way, and I'm getting the visual of how I'm supposed to do it. And when I went up to do that, my body just wouldn't do it. It's solidified in my mind that I had to do something different, right, that what I had been doing previously, although it was working up to that point, was no longer going to work. And you know, it led me down the number of different paths to really contemplate. When I was prepping for this interview, I was thinking to myself, I like, you know, especially since this is a long drawn out conversation, and I was like, well, I don't know how much prep I really want to do for some of these for some of these conversations, because it's so deep and there's a lot of personal stuff that's going on, and you know, if I go catch up with a friend, I'm not like trying to dig up information sit on them. I was like, you know, you want the person to tell the story and yeah, so that's why I like, I have my notes. I was like I was, I was digging up information because I didn't want to come in. Yeah. But then I was like, I don't know if Doug has talked to anybody. Is this your first interview since your announcement. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I got really nervous when I realized that. I was like, I don't know if he's talked to anybody. I feel very appreciative and honored and thank you for opening up and sharing this this moment. And so what, UM, I don't know. I guess I just asked, like why, you know, I think that there comes a point in my life where I just want to be me. You know, it's really what it comes down to. For a lot of the time, I was in the entertainment industry. You know, yeah, it's professional sports, but it is entertainment. You have to sell yourself, you have to build a brand, and sometimes that's um, you sacrifice your integrity to do that. You know, you're not really honest and truthful with who you wore, who you really are, because you're trying to put up this front of what people want you to be. Or what people will like so that you can get followers on Instagram, right, Um, And there's you know, it's just been a process through this whole thing for me to come to the realization that that's not how I wanted to live. I wanted to be as honest and as authentic as I possibly can be. And you know that's not just for me or for you know, the sake of saying, oh, I'm authentic. No, it's you know, my children deserved that. You know, my children, my family, that they deserved that. Um. And the closer I can get to who I really am and demonstrating that on a day to day basis, with whether it's you or whether it's with somebody and meet on the street, Um, then my family gets a better quality of me. And so you know, when you asked me to do this, yeah, there was there was some questions in my head about what I wanted to say or or if I was gonna do it at all. If you're gonna ask me a question, I'm gonna give you a genuine answer. We've had interactions before, we've worked together before, and I respect the way that you approach things, and so to me, it was a no brainer, I appreciate you coming here. Um, that's why I had to get you the cake. Take a lot of courage and shrinking the thing um your claws and your pain that you've never don't least your ice cream is. I saw your tweets. You tweeted this out several weeks ago, and we're gonna get to that. I feel a certain way about that, and I know that you and I are on the same page about how we feel about that and how how others have talked about his decision. But the one you did mention something about therapy and mental health, and you said, nobody wants to talk about it, but I wish more people did. I haven't, and I still am seeing a therapist, and I don't know where i'd be without it. To anybody who is on the fence about therapy, don't underestimate the value of your mental health. Well, what's crazy is I think it was a Seattle Times article you mentioned something about they must have been asking you something about therapy or you know who you are, and you said something like, I don't need to go to therapy, or um, if I did go to therapy, they just tell me things I already know so my guesses is that you hadn't started therapy at that point. My wife, God bless her, she forced me to go to counseling. Really yeah, and when was that? Uh? It was so always premarital counseling. Um, so that's when I was first exposed to it. And you're right, you know, I mean, even to this day, there's still because of where I grew up. You know, the culture that's just a mentality. It's going to counseling's taboo. It's it's a weakness if you're going to talk about your feelings. Yeah, just to speak on counseling or therapy. It's one of the greatest decisions I've ever made. I mean, even from my family in in some regard, you know, it's, um, it's not looked upon as this tool, right, Um, it's looked upon as a weakness. Um. You know, And I would argue that it's it takes more courage and more strength to be vulnerable about who you really are. Showing that person in the mirror who you really are, takes a lot of courage and strength to do that. You know, in a lot of ways you're dealing with, um, your flaws and your pain that you've never dealt with before, you know, and and things that you've buried very deep down inside of you, which is very painful to uncover. And it it's multifaceted, and it's multilayered, and when every layer that you peel off, you experience pain. Um. The one thing that I've come to realize as for my own understanding of my own belief, is that in order to really truly enjoy joy, to really understand joy, you have to understand pain. Because that's the contrast, right like if you had nothing to compare joy too, and you know that's just your norm. For me to go down that that deep into who I was, uh, it exposed a lot of the false uh sense of who I was and uh, you know, even bringing up the point of me saying that all they already they're gonna tell me what I already know, which is true. But they also forced me to explore and again propose questions that I had never thought about before. It changed my perspective not only about who I am and what I want to be, but to change my perspective on life, how I look and view other people, How I have more grace and more respect and more understanding and more empathy. Really, that to me is probably the most powerful aspect of it all, is that you know, in order to love somebody else, you've gotta love yourself, and not in a selfish way. To truly love somebody, you have to understand who you are in order to provide yourself with what is healthy and a healthy definition of love. And it's the same thing for empathy. In order for me to be empathetic to anybody else around me, I have to be empathetic to myself. I have to understand my true desires, my true needs. In doing that, just going through that process of being more empathetic, my relationships got better. You know, Um I felt healthier. Uh, you know, I just I feel like a different person. And as I said earlier, I feel more true to who I really am, true to myself, and and that won't waver in any situation, whether I'm talking to you or you know, anybody else. I want to be as as close to that person as I possibly can be, because I know that person is healthy, healthier than you know the other personas that I've been in the past, how you treat other people as how you treat yourself and before I had started my journey of self healing and self discovery, I was although I was nice on the surface, but I was very impatient. I was very walled up and kind of cold and super hyper focus and driven. Nobody's going to get in my way, you know. I think that that's like the one thing at least for my my experience that's been really cool. And so now I find myself being more patient with people. Um, it pays off, like you said, with my relationships, with my relationship with myself now with a kid. I mean, I don't know if I could even be capable of being a parent had I not started that journey. UM. But I'm curious for you. There's usually a prompt or reason or a specific issue that pushes you to go and seek help. For me, it was my help, my coping mechanism for having to retire and shed that athlete identity morphed into an eating disorder that spanned over a decade. But I'm curious for you. Was there something an issue that you have been struggling with that prompted you to go get help. I can't stress enough how that industry forces you two. I shouldn't say forces you but um, it motivates you to seek this false affirmation of who you who you claim to be, or who you are in that space, which is really not really who you are. You know, maybe it's just it's just my own personal journey, but you know, from the conversations I've had with a number of guys in this arena, UM, it's very similar. It's for instance, you when you first get into the NFL UM, you know your family around you, they view you differently, even though you're technically the same person in some way, they view you differently. UM. I know a lot of my family members, at least started to hear from family members I've never heard from before, you know, started um asking me for favors, asking me for money. Right, And that's that's not unique to me. That's it just happened right here, right, It's I mean, it's not just for athletes eire. You know, when somebody was a lottery it's the same thing. And to go through that process and really take that value or that um, that attention and attribute it to this performance, you know, it all gets wrapped in together. Uh, and it starts building this identity that's based on that it's based on this foundation of sand really because once that's removed, then the people stop calling you. You know, they don't care about how you're doing. They don't text you on your birthday. You know, all these things change, which is fine, but internally, as as a human being, those things start to weigh on you. You start to try to figure out and navigate through this maze of what my identity really was it really is, and again started you started to ask questions. And so I can't say it was one you know event that kind of like motivated this this perspective change. It was just the process of going through therapy and really being vulnerable, not only to my therapist but also to myself right right, and going and going back home and reflecting on the things that I had talked about and really asking myself, you know, I felt this way for a certain period of time, why did I feel this way? What was the motivation? What was the cause? And then going back to it, you know, and a lot of things where a childhood related and never got addressed just because we were never taught to address them. Um, So yeah, it wasn't you know, it's one thing. It was just a multitude of things that had built up this this hollow identity that once was pierced because my wife pierced it. Right, was truly trying to get to the grounds of who I really was, because that's who she loved. In Florida and Pensicola is hot and the humidity is like, you know, you're drowning. Um, I didn't enjoy that, and I actually quit my first year of football and went back to the second years because the start of the name dract somewhere and I wanted to put a game on the bomber. Let to quit. In terms of your identity being wrapped up in sport and being that put on pedestal if you will, did it start with the NFL or did it start when you were in golf free sep it? If that makes sense. There's levels to it, right, So when I was seven years old, I wasn't the best player on the team. Through the years, and then I became the best player on the team, and then it was recognized as I was the best player on the team, and then I started to be um celebrated and put on a pedestal as the best player on the team. And then I got to high school in the same thing. Then it's just another level. And then you get you know, you get scholarships two schools to play football, and then you put on a pedestal again, and it just reaffirms this identity that you're building and really has nothing to do other than with football. Um. So everything I was doing off the field, who I really was, what my passions were, what I really enjoyed. Like I played legos. I still play legos to this day, you know, not and not many people know that, not that I share it, but it's just it's just the fact that there's there's a whole another side to who I am as a human being, right, Um, And so yeah, there's there's so many layers to it and so many levels to it. And even at this point, you know, I had to make a conscious decision that I wasn't going to continue down that path because I felt personally in in my room, not you know, not stating for anybody else, but if I continue to go down this path, whether it be to continue to playing playing football or to put myself into sports broadcasting, um, which I had the opportunities to do. But if I continue down that path, and my identity would still be wrapped in there you know, everybody has to deal with it on their own accord. And I mean even what I just said about you know, when I got to the NFL, that was a whole, another layer, whole, another level, because not only did UM the affirmation of hey, you made it to the NFL, but now there's this dollar figure UM connected to it, right, and it's for it's it's out in public, everybody can see it. And so now there's another expectation of another layer of identity that's wrapped up in that as the caretaker for your family, right, the head of the household essentially of not my household, but everybody else's household, because I'm the breadwinner now, um, And there's expectations that came with that, unhealthy expectations. Um. But again it was woven into my identity at the time. And you know, all those things bothered me at the time. I didn't really know how to navigate them, didn't really understand them emotionally or mentally. But again, being introspective and going through counseling and very being very vulnerable with who I am and what I want and how I feel, you know, I've had a better understanding of why those things bothered me. And then now I'm able to have that conversation. I have the language to have those conversations. Um. So yeah, it's just it's it's been multilayered since I was seven years old, as I first started this journey. What was your first exposure to sports as a kid. T ball? Yeah, t ball. I hated t ball. Hated Its just too slow for me six. Basketball wasn't a strong sport at my high school. So I can't claim that I was good at basketball either. It was just you know, circumstances. But um no, I love the basketball. Basketball. Like I said, it was my first love, my first passion. So yeah, basketball, ran track, T ball, of course, football. Um And to be completely honest, I was just really good at football. You know, it wasn't something that I enjoyed it first. I didn't in Florida and Pensylcola is hot and the humidity is like, you know, you're drowning. Um, I didn't enjoy that. And I actually quit my first year of football, and I went back the second year just because, um it was something to do during the summer and I wanted to quit a game, but my mom would let me quit. Hated getting hit and how old were you at this point. As any successful person in and out of sports, I think people find it very shocking when they hear, oh my god, Doug almost quit football or somebody else. Yeah, it happens to everybody. You just gotta dig deep to find those stories. So that's funny. You almost quit a couple of times and your mom was like, no, no, no, no, no really yeah, well my junior in college, she didn't say that I had to quit football. She just she didn't want me to leave Stanford. Um. But yeah, when I was six years old, I quit, and then uh came back seven years old. I wanted to quit again, but my mom wouldn't let me. Um again. Wasn't the best player on the team, didn't really didn't enjoy football. But once I stayed with it, kind of, you know, I grew up a little bit in some ways, and football became natural to me, and I was naturally gifted and I was good at it. So I just followed that path, which is you know, it's fascinating, but it's also um, it was this trap that I kind of fell in, right because I didn't I didn't really have to flex other muscles. Um. You know a lot of things were just geared towards playing football and not towards anything else, and so really being a well rounded human being again my personal journey, not talking about anybody else. Um, you know, I definitely think that, Uh, I've had to go back and kind of fix some of those things and work on some of those things because I didn't I never focused on them before. Again, football came easy to me at the beginning, and so you know, I didn't really love it. I didn't really um enjoy it for the aspect of its artistry, all right. I just I was being celebrated because I was scoring touchdowns and we were winning championships in my literal league. You know, Um, that's what I enjoyed. That's what I loved, was the attention, was the affirmation, was the validation, and you know that. I mean that that continued up to the last day that I played. You know, there's even going through dealing with those injuries last year. You know, there's there's a part of me and part of my ego that was fed because I was proving I was poking my chest out, proving again that none of these injuries could hold me back. Even though they were in some ways, I was still able to be out there on the field, um and overcome a lot of those things, and that you know that has nothing to do with the sport. Um. It was just this validation, this ego driven thing that I needed to prove, not only to myself but to other people. Uh, because I wanted that attention. I wanted that validation. But when I you know, now being removed from the game, but also going through this process for a while, now I understand that you know, I did truly and genuinely love the game for yes, that part of it, but I also came to realize that there was an artistic value to the sport. One for the big balls that man I front ball is touchdown Chato Sinco and you know that's good up to get trip you're here. My first kind of connection with the artistic value was watching Chad Johnson Ocho Sinko run routes and his his his footwork and just the ability he had to get open. Him and Steve Smith were like they were the ones. And uh, that's really when I was introduced to the the artistic nature of the game. And that's when I fell in love with the sport of football. You know, outside of all the other auxiliary things of validation and information. You know, I really enjoyed routing somebody up because you know that that was that was my craft. You know, I loved the game in some respects UM, I also hated it. And I don't know if I hated the game so to speak, I think, UM, I hated the business that was around it. And that's not just the NFL that since Double A as well. You know, I think it's um ironic that we're that I'm discussing this now. Is California just passed the law. You know, it speaks to UM the demands that athletes have to place on their bodies, not only their bodies, but their mental state, their emotional state, sacrificing those things for the greater good of the team. UM. I was very resentful towards football, especially my junior year in college. It's just back and forth relationship that I've had with the sport that eventually it came down to the truth of the matter was that I love the sport for what it gave me, which was an opportunity to get out of my predicament, UM and an opportunity to excel at something that you know, really gave me an avenue to just focus on the craft, and I was good at it. The difficult part about even stating that is that the validation, the affirmation is still woven into that. You talked about your junior year at Stanford, and I know my personal journey and the struggles that I faced in college. Uh, it was not a piece of cake for me or walk in the park. There's a there's a huge level of responsibility that comes with being a D one student athlete. UM. And I think it's important for us to have that conversation because you know, there's a lot of young athletes out there, and the kids are starting to play and specialized younger and younger and younger, and all they see is like the scholarships and these professional athletes and and UM, you know, the the tension that they get. UM. But my experience was very difficult. And the interesting thing that I've I've that's occurred while I'm doing this show as I get to talk to other athletes, and now that we're older and further remove, were able to process everything that happened in college. And there are so many athletes shockingly that at one point either wanted to quit or wanted to transfer, or had a really really, really tough moment. Everybody has these experiences, and I thought about transferring. I actually don't know if I upset that publicly, but now it is, you know, Um, so it's interesting. It's it's not it's not an easy experience. But I'm curious what yours were and what happened that junior year when you thought about calling it quit. But when I came in to Stanford, Jim Harball was just hired, so that the staff that recruited me prior to that they were no longer there. So you know, I was worried about my standing in my place in the organization, but you know, they still honored my scholarship, um, you know, And and I think there was a bit of that as well. I wasn't there guy, you know, Um, they wanted to replace me with their guys. Which there's a lot to it, right, And I don't want to say it's just that, because yeah, I had some part of that. I'm human, I had flaws. I you know, Um, it was a child at the time, and so you know, I had my part in it as well. But to your point about you know, most athletes going through this challenge, and you know, I'm curious as to what it is in any other profession, right, but I do I do feel like in in the athletic world because of such a demand on you physically, emotionally, and mentally, UM, to overcome obstacles that are seemingly impossible because not only are they physical barriers, but they're also mental and emotional barriers, and so you're attacking this challenge on three different levels. UM. It's not surprising to hear that more athletes have gone through that struggle. Going through it in college my junior year and and um, going through that process of thinking that this could be the end of my football career and all the way that comes with that, right, physically, emotionally, and mentally, UM. But then being able to overcome that, and then facing it again my my second year in the NFL and kind of having that experience and say, okay, you can do this, but really not knowing because this is a whole different ballgame, and you know, my livelihoods is at stake now because at this point I had thrown everything in the football, so you know, if I didn't make it in football. Then I didn't know what I was going to be doing. You know, I don't even know if I have the language now to articulate what that, what that was, or what that is. But it's not surprising to me to hear other athletes, very successful athletes have gone through very similar things. Yeah, I mean, um, And also it's been very cool doing a show and I've I my whole goal is to to show the commonality, the common thread that all athletes experienced, from the lower levels to the higher levels, and people that you may or may not know about. And I've actually interviewed a couple of my teammates and in the course, these are people that I've known since I was a little girl, you know, and we grew up and played at the same level and we won a national championship, and well we're sharing these stories. I was like, what you felt that way too, Like I didn't know that and it's been you know, twenty years later. But there's that commonality, it is. Yeah, I think there's something to that. You know, I'd be curious if they've done any studies on that in terms of what just the challenges that athletes face, because you know, typically most careers they start, you know, right when you get out of college. But for most of us, as athletes, the career started, you know, well before that, and the pressure that's placed on you as a young person, um, and the consequences that come with that. For you know, some kids that have mentored that, you know, you just mentioned it that it's so specialized now and for some kids that I've mentored, they you know, it's become part of their childhood and in some sense, they really don't have what I would deem a typical childhood, you know, and it's it's their career right then and there at a very young age. And you know, what are the consequences of taking that route when you get older? You know what, um, what deficiencies emotionally and mentally and physically are you suffering from because you know, your career started when you were eight years old and not when you were twenty eight years old. Well, that's funny that you mentioned that, because I was actually doing some research. There's a number of studies, I mean, over the past several years, there's higher incidences and reports of suicidal ideations and attempts by teenagers from twelve to eighteen UM. It's doubled over the last several years. There was another study in It's one of the first ones that I've seen where student athletes actually reported higher levels of negative emotional states compared to non athletes. That was the first time I had ever seen that, and they were basically alluding to the fact that professionalization of sports and the increase of volume and training that's causing anxiety. When when you professionalize UM sports at such a young age, you know, there's an emotional toll that comes with that because you're worth your value, your perceived worth and value is based on how you perform in that sport, and it's not based on unconditional love. Already, as a young adult, you don't understand the world, you don't understand life, and you're still trying to do, you know, in some ways find a foundation to to supplant yourself to or plant yourself to grow from. UM. When that foundation is built upon conditional things, UM, I think there's an emotional issue there, and it's it's it's hard to articulate, it's probably it's obviously very hard to measure just from our own personal experience. When you know, when when your identity is based on unconditional things. You know, it's hard for you to fall back onto something your foundation is not solid, it's built on sand. What has been the interaction like with your family having that safety net as a kid and also stepping away from the sport because I think fans oftentimes forget that although it's a decision that is for us or for you as an athlete, but it impacts a lot of people, especially if you've grown up playing sports, which most lead athletes obviously do, and it's a it's a family sacrifice, a familial sacrifice. UM, for your parents. I know you have a younger brother right, UM, now your spouse, So what is what have what are those conversations like now with your with your family ongoing? It is tough because I've seen a lot of athletes struggle to walk away from the game because their parents, and if they are males, typically as the father that's pushing the males to continue playing. What has your conversation been like with your family? Complicated? I don't want to come across as an indictment on my family, right, I think it's um, it's um. You know, as a as a young man, as a as a as a young man thrust into this industry. You know, I didn't have the answers, So how could I expect my family to have the answers? You know who who weren't actually physically they're all the time dealing with the profession there on the outside looking in and for the most part, seeing all the positive things. And so for them it is a positive thing, um, But I'm the one that has to deal with the negative consequences. I didn't fully understand it. I didn't know how to how to handle it right. I didn't know how to behave around my family, And so of course how could I expect my family to know how to handle that as well? You know, I'll give you an example. I'm not gonna say any names, but she knows who she is. Like, I had a fallen out with this person because I wouldn't give them more money, you know, And that's uh, that's not unique to me. You know, I've I've had to mentor guys in the locker rooms through this process a number of times where their family members expect a certain thing from them. And this specific person I'm talking to now we don't talk anymore because I wouldn't give them money. You know that's that's just one example. There's multiple examples. And now at the end of the day, you know, there's still um empathy in my heart because again, I can't expect people to understand all that comes with it, right, And there's a part of me that you know, wants to explain it into articulated in a different way. But I know the the responses, I'm gonna be, oh, poor millionaire athlete, right, but it's part of it. And that's that's what I think. That's what a lot of people don't don't recognize or don't understand, is that, yes, I'm a millionaire athlete, and the problem with that is that I'm a millionaire athlete, you know, And that's and that's how you view me, not you, but you know whoever saying that that's how you view me instead of viewing me as a human being with thoughts, emotions, desires, joys, pains, all of all of the above. That is, you know, makes a human being outside of the fact that I made money in my professional right and that you know, me as the athlete and not as a human being. You know, they're still my family, I still love them, um, But just this world has you know, created a a necessity to depend on what is conditional and not as what what is unconditional. So you know, it's it's just part of it. That is a side that I didn't even think about. I mean, I think I just assumed that it's just the direct conversation with your anyone's parents or immediate family members of is this the right decision? Do you do? My parents or family members or mentors want me to keep playing? But it didn't even occur to me that there might be superficial motivations. It sounds like behind them wanting you to keep playing, this whole thing is built on false validation, false affirmation, right, um, you know. And and yeah, it's painful because I had a relationship with this person prior to this, and you know, now you question, okay, was the relationship based on what I could provide them, what I could do for them? And now that I don't provide that for them, they don't They no longer have value for me, you know, and you multiply that a hundred times over. You know, I'm a human. I start to question my value and my worth in the world. Um, and so what's important is for me to find people in relationships that are built on the unconditional foundation of love. And we've seen a lot of athletes recently it seems like we're retiring, So it makes me think about anybody else. I mean, your teammate Andrew Luck and everything that he had to go through that was like heartbreaking, and he was the face of the franchise. So I can only imagine, you know, And we've we've we have since talked um and he seems like he's in good spirits. But I can only imagine his process, you know, because the wait for him was way bigger than I think it was for me. And that's a can't It's just it's part of it. Does it make it easier to make the decision for yourself to step away when somebody else is doing it simultaneously, are around the same time, you know, when I see people retiring, When I saw people retiring in the past, I had a totally different mindset than I do now. I mean, the NFL creates this this false macho miss right. Um, I wouldn't do it that way. I wouldn't go out that way until you were forced to really reconcile with some things that you never thought about before you know, and I'm I'm dealing with the teammate, a former teammate now who's going through that same thing. You know, we had a very extensive talk about guys retiring, um, and it's gonna come to a point where he's gonna have to reconcile that sooner rather than later. And I understand I can be empathetic to that that mindset because I was once there. But the point of all this saying is that there's a part of it where you know, when guys are retiring, I saying I wouldn't do it that way, right, Like I'm gonna play to the wheels fall off, right, that was my original mindset. Um. But then you have to define what is wheels falling off? Really? Me? Wow, So what gave you clarity injuries surgery? Um? You know, hearing what all the doctors had to say. Uh, And did they specifically say, hey, you should stop, because otherwise, you know, they didn't specifically say that. You know, there's not verbatim, but the sentiment was there. You know. You gotta remember, at the end of the day, it's still a business. The NFL is going to try to get everything they can out of you as long as they can and then get rid of you. If you're in the mindset that you'll continue to give yourself even when you shouldn't be, they'll take it. And you know, it's it's hard to it's hard to talk somebody out of that who's in that mindset. You know, it could either be I'm choosing myself because I want to keep playing the game, or it could be I'm choosing myself and I'm going to dictate my life and I'm going to walk away from the game because now it's my time. When you Quasi announced your retirement, it was like three days after the Seahawks cut you, and it was a series. I think it was like six word letter to your younger self. When did you write that? I don't know. It had been a process for a while, so you have had had you spent several months on it. I'm not writing it, but just you know in your head thinking about, you know what, what would this look like. I didn't want to do a press conference. I felt that was you know too much. Yea, that's just not my style. But I felt like and nothing against the fans, but you know, it wasn't that I would say that the fans deserved anything, right, I felt like I deserved it right. I was writing this story. I'm the one who put in the work. I'm the one who you know is going to suffer the consequences for putting my body through what I put put it through. You know, I deserved to kind of right the story, the ending, the way I want to write it. It's your journey. But I got emotional reading it, and I don't know, only if you feel comfortable. I I printed it out and I was going to read bits and pieces of it, but they're your words, so I don't know if you would feel comfortable. Just you tell me. You tell me what you want to tell me, what you want to talk about. Well, I would like to. I just I want to like replay the whole letter because I think it's it's special. Do you want me to read it? Okay, So you said I've always wanted to write a letter to my younger self. I never knew how or when I would write it, but it seems very appropriate right now. Dear Doug, I know what you're thinking. Yes, Papa did get you, did get you that power ranger ty you wanted for Christmas. He loves you more than you could possibly understand. Cherish the time you spend with him. You can't get those moments back. I wanted to write you this letter and tell you that you're about to endure one hell of a journey. You would feel emotional and physical pain you never knew exist it. You will fail over and over again, but don't worry. All of it will be the reason why you succeed. Along this journey. You're going to make some incredible memories. You will make terrible mistakes. They will teach you valuable lessons. You're going to meet a diverse group of people, and you will learn something from all of them. High School will be hard, College will be harder. It is God's way of preparing you for what's to come. You'll want to quit football during your junior year. Mom, of course, won't let you. Make sure you thank her for that later. Did I mention you'll fail? Well? Your college career will end uneventfully in your eyes, you'll wish you could do it over again. However, you will have accomplished so many things many people only dream about. In your quiet moments, remember to be thankful you'll finally get a chance to compete at the highest level of the sport you love, and knowing you, I bet you'll leave your mark early. During that time, you will lose yourself in that world. It's okay, you'll come out of it or the better. That first year will fly by. You won't remember most of it. What you will remember is a QB that taught you how to serve, the VET that showed you how to lead, and the best friend that showed you real love. The next few years will be filled with beautiful memories of close friends you will meet along the way, friends that will offer their guidance, friends that will push your limits, friends that will challenge your confidence, friends that will support you no matter what, and friends that will become your family. You owe a lot to be the people you owe. They will stick by your side when your passion turns into anger, when your drive turns into obsession. It will be poised warriors that you'll need by your side. And don't forget the coaches. There will be good ones and there will be better ones. Will come to appreciate the great ones even if others don't. But when the journey finally comes to the end, you will reflect on what that little boycott between both Breese and Pensacola. What he really wanted to be seen and to be loved. You will realize the affirmation you receive from catching a football won't suffice that little boy's desire. The praise from those that don't know you will be good for your ego but bad for your character. But one day we'll find a woman, a real woman that will see you, love you, and force you to become a real man. You will owe her everything, and she will become your everything. Hold her close and remember the lessons you've learned along the way. Because the end of one journey sees the beginning of another, and guess what it will be one hell of a journey. You will feel a omotional and physical pain you never knew existed. You will fail over and over again, but don't worry. All of it would be the reason why you succeed. My watch has ended. The reason why I wanted you to read it is because I've read it to myself so many times already, you know, and hearing it from a different voice, Um, it's different, you know. I hope that anybody who read that, UM, including myself, realizes is that that is authentically me. You know, that's as many layers as I've pulled back, as I've tried to get as close to the center of who I am is I possibly can be. That's it, you know. And it's kind of relieving me of this burden that is my football identity and allowing me and giving myself allowance to become who I always was, but more so now, um you know, and and and still staying true to who I am, you know, through and through and so you know, I I never heard somebody else say it so, especially in all in one sitting, because you sent it out in a series of tweets. You probably didn't say it out loud. You're probably just internally writing it right, So it probably sounds a little different when somebody reads it out loud. Probably brings it to life a little bit more. Does it feel okay? Yeah? I mean you know, each each tweet meant something. You know, it wasn't um this, it wasn't surface you know, again, like that's I'm as true to me as I possibly can be. And even the first one when I say, yeah, Grandpa got you that that power ranger toy that you want. He'll love you more than you will ever understand it is, you know, it was it was that first sense of what unconditional love was. I didn't I didn't appreciate it and I didn't understand it back then, but now I do, and now it means so much more right. And my grandfather was he was everything to me, you know, from as early as I can remember up to this point. You know, he uh he supported me and was at every one of my football games, every one of my sporting events. And you know, just like Kobe Bryant said, it didn't matter if I scored six touchdowns or didn't play. My grandfather smiled and loved me the same every time. Just as a reflection of you know, everything I've gone through up to this point. It wasn't it didn't resonate with me. It wasn't as powerful to me until I actually did the reflection onto why what these emotions were that were kind of buried inside of me um and so to be able to spill it out as authentically as I possibly could, you know that that's me, and it's it's and the reason why I wanted to do it and in the fashion in which I did, because I wanted to live on forever you know, I want my kids to realize who their father was, you know, and my grandchildren, my great grandchildren to know who their great grandfather was long after I'm gone. You know. Yeah, Grandpa was. He was stubborn, he had his flaws, but he loved us authentically and unconditionally. Um, you know, And so I wish that there was more of a record of my grandfather and the man that he was, um, and the impact that he had on me. So this is you know, kind of gift to him, but also passing that gift from him onto my my children, my grandchildren, my great grandchildren. It was beautifully written. So that's one chapter which has been written. Your next now has to be written. So what's next for you? What are you working on a lot of stuff? Um, I like solving problems, and uh, I've been putting myself in the arena where I can solve very big problems. And I think I'm in a good spot right now. I got I got some things that I'm very intrigued and very excited about. I was approached by a local company called Intellectual Ventures. You know, outside of all the other things I'm doing, and not to say that I'm not excited about those other things. But uh, Intellectual Ventures is a it's a venture capital firm that create is as simply as I can put it. They innovate and create and they solve huge problems, uh global problems. You know, Like I said, I grew up playing Legos. I loved building and creating and using my my intellect and my imagination. And I feel like I'm going into that world again, you know, I'm I'm an adult getting to play with Legos and be innovative and creative and solved problems. Thank you for so much for coming on and really opening up and sharing your story. You shared just a lot of a lot of deep personal stuff and I appreciate you coming on and I'm sharing. Thank you for the cake. Really appreciate the cake. I think the most powerful moment of this entire interview by far was reading Doug's retirement letter. Saying the words out loud brought a tangibility to not only his retirement and the fact that football is really over for him, but also how much he's been through as a player, as an athlete and also as a person. One aspect that impresses me the most about Doug's journey especially over the last few years, is seeing the empathy he's developed, not only for himself, for others as well. And it all started with a question of who am I beyond sport. It's an important question that all athletes must answer, but don't try to answer soon enough. The big warm thank you to Doug for being so generous with this time and having the courage to be vulnerable and share his inspiring story. And to you the listener, I thank you for tuning in to the next chapter with PRIM Sripapat And by the way, if you know of an athlete whose transition from sport is one that needs to be told, let me know. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at prim Underscore s Rippabet. Thanks for listening. Really hope you enjoyed today's best of episodes. Stay tuned as we prepare for season three of the next chapter. Can hardly wait for all of you to dive into this new content coming up. If you're interested in checking out some of the other episodes in the meantime, just visit our show page on I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcasts, and to watch the full version of these interviews, you can head on over to YouTube just search for the next chapter with prims rippa Bat. Of course, subscribe to us, like us, give us star rating. We really appreciate you listening and showing your support, and also feel free to follow me on Twitter or Instagram at prim underscore s Ripa Pat. The next chapter with prim s to Rippa Pat is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.