The next chapter with prim sripa Pad is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey everybody, it's prim Welcome to the next chapter, presented by Baron Davis and Slick Studios. This week we continue the Transparent Conversation Series, a nationwide, multi city, multi university series addressing such an important topic student athlete mental health and well being. And it's all being powered by LG Electronics USA. So glad we're able to re air these conversations right here on the next chapter because A this is obviously something so meaningful to me, and B I think these conversations are just really important for everyone to hear and learn from. So throughout this LG Transparent Conversation Series, we stopped at my alma mater, Duke University, to talk about the stressors of the student athlete experience and also the mental health implications the consequences of those stressors. After that, we took a trip to Columbus, Ohio to talk about the role of support systems within the student athlete experience. And today we are in California at Loyola Marymount University talking about student athlete mental health beyond the college experience. So this is all about extending the conversation beyond at student athletes college experience and talking about just a bigger picture, because our care for athletes shouldn't stop once they leave college or once they stop sport. You know, I kind of find it so interesting and in some ways commic goal that we focus so much on the development of the athlete while they are playing, but once they stop, which for most of them occurs after they leave college, it's as if all that support and care and attention just comes to a screech eating halt, and these athletes overnight are expected to make that transition into the normal and real world seamlessly. For some it's a good transition, and for others it's a challenging one. So in this episode, you're gonna hear from Dr William Parham, Professor in l m USE Counseling Psychology Program. He is also the director of the Mental Health and Wellness Program for the m b p A. You will also hear from Tarah Flowers, former U c l A softball player, national champion, Olympic gold medalist, currently the head coach for the l m U softball team, and also Betsy Flint l m U Volleyball alum and current professional beach volleyball player. And as you'll hear, we're gonna tackle a ton of critical issues on this topic. So, without further ado, here is our final panel of the l G Transparent Conversations series. There's no rewinding in real life, is there, folks? So I think this is it. You know, we closed the doors, we got the air conditioning going, we got a developing audience right here on a wonderful Wednesday. We have some smile ls. This is what happens when you're in sunny California. Because I'm coming from the northeast, I'm like, yeah, is this is this what it's like all the time. This is where I started thinking about moving to the West Coast. Is this is where I start thinking about dr P? All right, well let us begin. Welcome everybody to LG Transparent Conversations, a multi city, multi university tour and mini series addressing such an important topic student athlete mental health and well being. And it's all being powered by LG Electronics USA. So listen. We started this series all the way out on the East Coast at my alma mater, Duke University. We made a stop in Columbus, Ohio. We also spoke to a few members of the Notre Dame family and today we are in sunny California, dead smack in the middle of Loyola Marymount University and our final stop and in the midst of their final their their Wednesday wellness day. Because this is such an unbelievable thing. So for people that are listening to this show, we've got multiple tens. We've got I mean, what is out there, coach through the food trucks are out there. Um, I think they do a T shirt giveaways. We usually try to bring our recruits in on this stage, just show them the excitement and what we have going on here in the support that the students have excellent. I'm all about free giveaways. I always want some free stuff that will never stop. Well, for those that do not know me, I will be serving as your host and your moderator. My name is Prim Surrippa pat um and so as a former duke tennis player and student athlete, a longtime sports broadcaster, but also now as a PhD counseling psychologist doing at fordhom University who's so passionate about helping athletes. I mean, this is such an honor to be here and thank you so much for um for all of you being here. So listen. We started off the LG Transparent Conversation series talking about a number of topics, right the first one was about the stressors of the student athlete experience, then we went over to the consequences of those stressors. Then we talked about the role of support systems, and today we're going to talk about the student athlete mental health experiences beyond college. So really the aim for today is just about expanding the conversation and exploring and discussing how is students student athletes experiences and their mental health and well being just affects their trajectory beyond college. So hopefully that makes sense. So joining us today for this important conversation. Dr p Dr William Parham the professor in the Counseling Psycho Counseling Program at the l m U School of Education. He is also the director of the Mental Health and Wellness Program for the National Basketball Players Association and also a member of the Mental Health and Wellness Task Wars for the United States Olympic Committee. He has also been somebody who over the years has been a tremendous source of support and a mentor to me. Dr P. It is such an honor to be here with you. Well, thank you for the invitation. It's an honor for me to join you and my distinguished colleagues, and so thank you for the opportunity. It's an important conversation that I'm glad to be a part of. Awesome all right, And just going around the table now we have to Rio Flowers, national champion at U c l A two time Olympian and gold medalists, currently the head coach for the l m U softball team. This is your time, coach, drop some bars you're talking about it. This is where your music and rock career begins if you want. Oh, the stage fright is setting in for the rap career. But I'm so happy to be here and thank you for having me. You know what about an hour and a half into the conversation, you might you know, get you yes, yeah, and then we can close out the show with just that if you want. And last, but certainly not least, Betsy Flint, who's been a part of the l m U family for many years as a student athlete, also as an assistant volleyball coach, currently on the pro circuit as a six time a VPC MPI and we corrected the resume there because I was looking you up and they said five times, but we need to update it to six time a VP champion and of course an Olympic hopeful as you have your site set on the four Paris Games. That's very exciting, Betsy. It's such an honor to finally be here in person, and and thank you for coming here. Thanks for having me. All Right, so let's get this conversation started. Okay, Dr P. I'm gonna I'm gonna go to you first. Um. You know, because you have such extensive experience working with athletes of all ages and all different levels at the college level, at the pro level. Uh. You know, when we're talking about the student athlete experience in terms of mental health and well being, why do you think it's so important that we not just focus on their experience in college they begin to step back and look at the bigger picture. Well, it makes no sense for me to only focus on the physical. You can't separate the physical from the mental. Unfortunately, the mental, which was the least understood, the most pen stricten area of conversation. It was for a long time denied, and I go on record as saying a lot of systems, although sensitive to mental health and wellness, never really failed at addressing it. They've often succeeded and not addressing it because of the complexity the ignorance about it. So the fact that the conversations have now emerged thoughtfully, I think directly, I think it really is the first of several dominoes that aren't going to fall because it really balances out the human experience. We are more than what we do. We think, feeling behave is very very important, and the life experiences that have shaped we have become and how we think feeling and behaved. It's part of the whole person experience. So it's long overdo and I'm glad that we're finally having these kind of important conversations. Thank you for opening the conversation in such a transparent way. And that's exactly what this is all about, is just being really raw, really really being honest. And this is a topic that's ever evolving, right, you know, and and one that's very trendy but at times kind of controversial. But let's go around the table. And I definitely want to address some of the things that you just addressed in terms of just the systemic issues, also the stigma that continues to persist with regardless sometimes mental health in sports. But coach, when we're talking about expanding the conversation with regards to just general student athlete well being beyond the college years, what comes to mind for you? Well, we talk a lot with our athletes about your more than just this game and being a softball player. And I think that's usually the hardest thing is when we're done, I've done this for so long, since they were five, six, seven years old, what do I do now? So it's more of what are your interests? Where can we start getting them to tap into things outside and just softball and enjoying more of the variance and kind of growing on their own and being away from their parents and not just about the game, although you know, Winnie makes the experience a little bit better, right, But it's not just about the wins and the losses, and it's um, you know, just growing and kind of just figuring themselves out at this time. Yeah, And it's also so hard when you're in college and you're just do an athlete. It's hard not to get sucked into that experience. I mean when I when I was at Duke, you know, I was thinking about, you know, I came here on a scholarship. My job is to deliver, not just in the classroom, but especially on the quarter field. So Betsy, you know, when we were having our pre production prep panel, you know, and I was kind of talking about this, and I was like, Okay, we'll talk about retirement, you know, and transitioning from sport, which is kind of my developing area expertise. And You're like, well, hold on, I'm I'm still competing. Don't forget. I'm still all out there. So it must be just kind of an interesting thing. Like you're you know, you have your sight set on the Olympic Games, and um, but when you I'm just curious about when you think of your eventual transition from sport, what comes to mind for you. Yeah, I'm I'm not sure yet. I don't want to think about it, which is what I tend to do is try to avoid it when I should really, you know, think about what I wanted to look like. Um, it's hard to predict when it's going to happen, and UM, yeah, it's been great to listen to the conversations you've had on your podcast about other athletes who have retired and how they're dealing with that transition. But um, like we were saying, is just so much more important. The wins and losses don't matter at that point. It's about like the journey and who you're becoming now, and the mental health side is a huge part of that. Your answer is exactly what I would have said. It's like, I'm not my job is not to think about it. And that's like the paradox of It's like, you know, and and and you're right that some of the most of the athletes that I have on my show are already retired, but the couple that I've brought on that are still competing, you know, they're just like my job, Like once you get to the pro level, like our job is not to stop think about stopping. You have to think about continuing to perform UM and dr P. You and I have talked about this extensively, But what makes it so hard in terms of, you know, athletes having to just engage in that process of like now I have to think about retiring. Well, two things that have really struck me over the many many years I've been doing this and working with athletes at all levels of both pro and collegiate. The first is that it becomes the fundamental part of their identity. And they've been uh steeped into practice, workouts, game travel, their camaraderie. That teaches whole system that people know them by the sport that they play, and over the years, and if they have some celebrity uh and really exposure, they become name recognition. And so when that ends, and sometimes it's ends abruptly through injuries for example, but even a phased out retirement, their identity is latched on. And that's when they start using the world what do I do next? And the word next jack stair anxiety up exponentially. But the other thing that I really have discovered, I don't know any athlete at any level, including Hall of Famers, when they were kids. The biggest thing they did, which was free, It didn't cost travel, it didn't cost tuition, that didn't call sponsorships, was dreaming. I work a lot with the m b A and a lot of the Hoopers dribbled the school with the right hand, dribbled home with their left, slept with their basketball we're in the neighborhood gyms, on the community playgrounds, in their backyard, imagining that they were taking that game winning shot in game seven and here in the roar of the crowd and really living that experience. And they kept that through school, through hardships, through whatever. And what I have found out as that when athletes get to be collegiate, get to be Olympians, they stopped dreaming. And part of it. When you stop dreaming and your identity has been attached to the thing you're doing, that's the challenge. So I have a simple recommendation for a lot of athletes start dreaming like you did when you were four and five years old, even though you're twenty thirty, What do you want to be doing when you're fifty And Jess has a freedom to see anything you want unabashedly. This is what I'm going to do, and just see it. Because all of that comes into a principle that I'll end with. There's a clear principle in psychology called say, believe, behave. When you say something to yourself often enough, irrespective of what you're saying is true or false, that's irrelevant. It's repetition. When you say something to yourself often enough, you begin to believe it. And when you believe something long enough, if you begin to behave as if it's true. And when the kids were little in dreaming, they were feeding themselves information, pictures, visuals, and all of that was recorded in their body and their DNA, if you will. And as they grew immature, they kept doing that. But they've stopped doing that now. So I engage, I said, separate yourself from your identity. You aren't what you do. It feels so happens that you do it well. But the genius it takes to be an athlete is the exact same genius it takes to do anything else you want. So really re engage that gene to dream, and half the struggle will be finished. It is so true. I think as adults we just kind of turn off that switch. And to achieve the athletic dream, it takes a lot of time and effort, and by the time you kind of get to adoless late adolescents, young adulthood, you're you know, you're you're still working on that athletic dream and you're still going, you know, into your late twenties. But you know, for either one of you. I mean, there's so much to unpack and what Dr P just mentioned, but what what aspects of anything that he just talked about right now resonates with you. I think the dreaming part, you know, um growing up for me early on, softball wasn't in the Olympics, so I didn't really have that dream. And then when it was there, it was like, Okay, that's something I should latch onto. And going to the university that I did, they helped me kind of align my goals with getting to the Olympics. But once I was there, the pressure became the production part in you know, I tell my athletes all the time, I didn't truly enjoy my experience in two thousand eight because I reached being an Olympic to the Olympics in two thousand four, but I was a role player, so I didn't have quite the role that I wanted. And then in two thousand and eight I started, but I was so caught up in this is my last time around, how am I going to end? I'm not performing the way that I want to that I didn't enjoy just being there, and even my teammates, you know, we came home with the silver. We had a goal to know for so even just enjoying meddling, it was a whole different like we we didn't allow ourselves to enjoy it the way that we should have. How many people left there without even having a medal, and we just we put this added pressure in So it wasn't even I reached my goal. It was um almost kind of just this negativity that I put around myself because I it wasn't that I wasn't dreaming. I put too much pressure on it, and kind of I do. I didn't approach it the way that I should have the DNA of my entire life. But can I slip something in here, because I don't want the audience to miss something to try saying what she's reporting, and I appreciate your candor, is that I really wasn't fully available to play soft, but she meddled. I can't begin to imagine what she would have accomplished has she been fully available. What you're really looking at is genius as an athlete to be able to deliver at Olympic caliber level, not given it your all and worried about all sorts of other stuff. And that's the strength that's hidden. That is still there, and wherever she goes in your career, that genius potential has to be dab it's available. Seven three. Yeah, I mean I think there's something to be said about really learning how to live in the present moment. I mean, we we do that as athletes, but that same philosophy has to be applied to just general real life. You know, whether you're still trying to pursue a professional career coach, mom, dr P all the work that you're doing. Even for me, you know, going through the doctoral program, I mean trying to I always think about like I just need to graduate. I just need to graduate, just need the title to PhD. But it's not about that. I've learned that I really enjoy striving for me, for my personality. I actually enjoy the striving, not necessarily achieving the goal. But Betsy, you know, just hearing hearing this conversation, what's coming up for you? Yeah, it's a great reminder. Like dreaming about the goal of the Olympics, and I've thought about like, Okay, if I make it there, um is that going to a film fulfill me? If I don't make it there, as you know, how am I going to feel so, um, just taking the time to be president, like you said, and um, and everything I do and not look too far ahead is is huge. And it's a really good reminder, um, because it is about the journey. And I don't know if you watch that documentary Weight of Gold with Michael Phelps and they talk about, yeah, they want a gold medal and they're going through really challenging times, depression and just not feeling fulfilled and what they've done. Um. So I thought a lot about that, and it's been good for me to kind of hone in on my why and why I'm competing and why I'm doing what I do every day. And that helps me every single day to wake up and work out and stay present and um, do everything I can to reach my goal but be fulfilled along the way. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And yeah, that documentary is really powerful. I do think there's something particular about olymp Olympians and Olympic athletes. Their experience is so different because it's like every four years you put in so much work as opposed to athletes that are constantly playing you know, a hundred games, eighty games a year. But you know, I think that this conversation. You know, it's it's an interesting one to have because we're talking to hopefully some students student athletes out there, and yet we're also talking about the end. I get that like it's it feels maybe grave, it feels emotional, it feels uncomfortable for me as an athlete. I was like, I don't want to hear this has nothing to do with me and has everything to do with you. And I think that the thing that stands out for me when we're having what we're talking about right now, I think it's also about asking yourself the question what does sports do for me? How does it exist in my life and my relationship? For me, you know, maybe as an Asian American, as a woman of color, maybe somebody who was petite kind of felt like I never really knew where I fit in. For me, it made me feel just kind of accepted into having a community. So when I talk about that coach, for you, what has what is sport represent for you? When you just said that, it really resonated with me being biracial, and um, I'm not really sure there were in a lot of uh people in my sport that looked like me growing up. Um, even my family. I'm kind of the direct mix of both. Like I don't really look like anyone else, so it gave me somewhere to fit in. UM, it gave me focus and taught me hard work and um just building relationships. I think some of my closest friends came from sports. UM. So I just I really I was. I've been able to travel the world and see different things and just be more open minded. And I am so thankful that I had those opportunities. UM. But it is I mean, even for me, I haven't completely transitioned out of sport. I mean, I just I don't know if it's because I didn't want to see what the real world look like. And you know, I just I loved it so much. So being able to um still tap into that competitiveness and in learning the game and teaching the game, it's just um still fulfills me so much. Dr P. I'm sure you have plenty to say about this topic. Well, I do. And one of the things I like to suggest, uh, you asked, Braham, what does a sport do for you? And I think that's a very valid question because there's a lot of emotional nourishment and other sources of nourishment that you get friendships, collegality, and so forth, feeling accomplished mastering certain skills. But I find myself wondering what difference athletes lives would make if they ask a different version of that question, not what's the sport due for me? But what do I do for the sport? Because then that shifts uh and opens a portal of looking inside of you, which I think is important. Betsy reminds me in that video, which is very very powerful. The following mantra which I share without these all the time, and one of the courses I teach here is in trauma psychology. But the matra I asked my students to memorize, and memorize is defined as not to recall or remember or to regurtudate. The goals of memorizing is to forget, forget me, need to get so deeply ingrained in your spirit you don't give it a second thought. And the mantra that came up for me as I was listening to Betsy former student, by the way, is whenever and wherever shadows have been cast, it must mean that there's light nearby. But you can't cast shadows without light. So even though we are in dark spaces and things get heavy and burdensome, there has to be light nearby. And a light about which I speak is inside each athlete, and it is inside the people they surround themselves with. It allow into their inner circle. So that cumulative illuminates really really is enough light to shine on the road to better days. And so there's a hidden genius even in tragedy. There's a treasure in every trial, every stumbling block can be turned into a stepping stone and getting that sort of mindset hope to navigate the journeys and the challenges that we all face. I want to take one of your classes. Can I come back to l m U. I know I'm not for it, and I wonder if there's a way that I can just you know, pop in and you're in the system, so we can work something now, Yes we can, Yes we can't. We got zoom, we got virtual and telling. Yeah, tele academic systems in all seriousness, So let's see when you're listening to this, to this part of the conversation, have you ever thought about what sport does for you or vice versa, what you do for sport? Yeah, I think it kind of taps into the y that I talked about earlier, UM and just honing in on that. For me, it's like inspiring young athletes, young female athletes, UM and showing them that they can be a mom and still pursue athletics and pursue their dreams UM. And I have an almost two year old, so that is you know, a challenge in that too, UM, but also UM. And then for me, like the why for me is like I bring my my dad passed away before I was born, so I never met him, and now when I play and compete, UM, it just brings out traits and qualities of his that I never knew that he had until like my family tells me stories. So that's kind of what sport does for me. Yeah, that's amazing and so we so we really begin to figure out that why why we do things, and hopefully when we're engaging in sport and along the way, maybe it's not just about softball and volleyball and tennis and basketball, but it is just the bigger part of you know, you just talked about, you know, giving back, it's really about giving back. And for me, I've figured out that my north star is really just having an impact and just helping people. That's been, that's been, That is now my north star. So you know, coach for you and Betsy, actually all three of us, you know our why has I would imagine I don't want to speak for the both of you, but we are all mothers and you know, with amazing kids. So what is that process? Like? What should the process? What could it be for student athletes when they're trying to figure out one sport is no longer there, Well, what's my what's my why? Now? What's my purpose? I think that um, it's forever evolving. Right when I first got into coaching, it was because I was still playing and I wanted to be around the game, And selfishly it was I can kind of still do my thing but have a job and kind of figure out is this what I want to do? And then um, it became I want to be around the sport. I still want to be competitive and go and as I've matured and had different relationships with my players, it's been I want to make an impact and you know, uh you talked about it of you can be a mom and still follow your dreams or do something that you thought you couldn't do before and still um create a family. Um. I think that just thinking about out, um, everything that you love about the sport, competing in building relationships, it translates. It's you know, I think dr P talked about it. It's being in the real world and being a person. Everything can translate, and whatever you like about sport, that's what you can continue to develop as you finish and retire and kind of continue to grow. Yeah. Um, you know. The complicated aspect about that is that you're You're exactly right. All of the skills that we learn in sports is totally transferable, and it it if anything, it positions student athletes within the real world and within the workforce in a certainly much more advantageous way because it's like, Wow, leadership, dedication, um, ability to to juggle and balance time and all these other be a team player. The thing that I've been searching for, and Dr P, I'm gonna go to you next. I haven't found a lot of I've found some answers, but one question that I've often asked is why do some of these skills not transfer Because we've seen a lot of athletes that make that transition from sport and just kind of fall through the cracks and things don't really it doesn't go smoothly, and it's like, Wow, here's this amazing athlete who was a champion in their respective sport. So what's what's happening? So dr P, what what have you found about that? We'll have a couple of reactions to that one. I still think that they are champions. They are taking a pause, They are taking a moment to reflect, and I think that that's so important. They are taking a moment to pause and reflecting ways that don't seem okay or normal. But I think we have to not judge and hate on them. It's where they need to be at that particular moment. But also what gives me invite the audience to consider in certainly athletes, You raise a good question again, what does what skills sets does the sport give you that you can then apply If you reverse that, what skills that's did you bring to the sport that you're can apply to the sport? So you are already equipped, in my opinion, with skill sets, with ways of thinking, ways of negotiating that apply to the sport you are now participating it. And so it's always a give and take, but you brought skills to the sport long before the sport gave you skills. And I keep focusing on that because I really truly believe in my heart and I can't be unconvinced. I personally don't endorse the notion of losing confidence, motivation, self esteem, or will pop because when you hear that I talk about, we teach it. I was taught that, so I get all of that language. But when you look at the fundamental premise of just those concepts, we are are told and brain washed that you are walking around deficient, uh, that you have a gap to fill, have to come up to speed. We even develop a language that puts pressure on you. And while I make sense, is that really true? I have a belief that we have innate genius, talent, motivation. We don't often use it, we don't tap into it, but it's there to be tapped into. And so I always think that the questions that people ask aren't out there, the questions, the answers are here. And I think when we start engaging in self reflection and again another mantras, when a person won't ever see their reflection in running water, it is only when the water is still, whether reflected image begin to emerge, and really listening to the stillness. And related to that, if the audience spells out the word listen, and I say that the key to doing, to maximally doing what that word spells, it's contained in those six letters. Well, if you move those letters around, you come up with the words silent. So the best way to listen, in to honor the genius that you have innately, is to be silent and don't go after the answers, allow the answers to come to you. I really do believe that. In fact, the last analogy I give is that of a light bulb. If you're in a dark room and you flick the switch up and the light comes on. If I ask you why is there light now in the room, the two first answers, which are wrong but sound correct, well, dr P, you cut the switch on. And when I say that's not correct, they scratch their head and say, well, I know where you're going. It's electricity in the room. I said, that's true too, but I asked not to answer. Is that in order for there now to be light in the room, the lightbulb had to already be in the socket, because if I had to sock the lightbulb out of the socket and flick the switch up and we can verify electrical current, you still be in the dark. So when you have a lightbulb moment, that has to me that you were already prewired with that genius. Nothing came to you. You discovered that which you already possessed. It's a life for me is about discovering, not going after something that you already have. Yeah, it's a concept, as you beautifully said that, it's just it's just kind of within us, right, those answers, that inner beauty, that inner strength, that inner power, that inner insight is always going to be in us. It's all about just sitting still, being able to sit it in the darkness and moments and ask us those questions. So then my question to you, to Coach and Betsy is what kinds of questions should we be asking ourselves? What kinds of questions should all of these student athletes sitting out here in the audience right now? What is going to help them really capitalize on their athletic experience and it's going to give them that Why in the next chapter, I really like what you said about just sitting in silence and taking time. I think it's really hard as a student athlete. You're running from class to practice, um, back to class and doing homework all the time. And I know I struggled with that as an athlete and even as a coach when I was I was an athlete to coach and I was running from place to place. And I had talked to my sports psychologists and he's like, can you just set a timer for one minute and just sit there in silence? And that was really hard just to sit there and not just to be present and not think about what was next. UM. And I think that's a huge part of being a student athlete, has taken that time to reflect. And maybe it's journaling after practice or just taking one minute, five minutes UM, probably more than that, but UM, just to be with yourself and you have to ask questions. UM. Maybe it's the dream, like what what do I want my life to look like? What do I want next? Um? Not to put pressure on them, but just like dream UM, so you can be present in what you do and UM, that would be a good place to start. But there's just a lot of like questions you'll you'll come in and ask yourself when when you're there in silence and taking time to reflect. Yeah, coach, so many things are going through my mind right now. I think everything that Betsy just shared is amazing. I mean, we try to give our players time to uh journal, time to reflect. Um. We did a goal setting books this year. Um, you do that during practice, the journaling, so we do we do um post games or post practice taking time to reflect on themselves. We do a little shout out session after practice called little dubs of you know, what did a teammate do well today? And not just the physical but the UM we talk about our core values and more of the process and realizing that someone came out here with the goal today and they really set out to work on it or they struggled, and what was their mindset? And not just that they achieved the goal, but um, what did it look like getting to that point? Right? Yeah, So it's it is, it's more of we try to at least once a year remind them send a thank you letter someone that you're grateful for that got you to this point. Um. It's hard to stay in that negative state and be grateful, right, So just remembering you didn't do it by yourself. You're huge part of it, but people are here supporting you, and how can you continue to um, just be happy and it's okay to change your mind and it is okay to be happy. And you know, sometimes our players talk about goal setting. If I want to be an All American, I'm being selfish, and it's that, okay. It's a fine line being selfish or having goals and wanting to be better for yourselves or make a name for yourself. That's not selfish, but how you get about there and who you take with you along the way. So there's so many things that they hopefully will take into account as they're going through their experiences. But right reflecting and understanding what makes me happy at the end of the day and really tapping into those things. By the way, that is such a team sport athlete mindset, because I feel like individual athletes like myself would be like, yeah, you just be selfish, like that's what you're supposed to do, you know, because it's a very different dynamic and I could go off on totally different tangent. But one thing that I'm actually really fascinated about, uh, one thing that my dissertation may focus on a little bit is just the different experiences between individuals word athletes and team sport athletes. And I've happened to stumble across a few studies that actually indicate that individual sport athletes are at a greater risk for mental health issues and symptoms and disorders, not only compared to team sport athletes, but even to non athletes as well. So obviously that literature is still kind of evolving that that certainly piques my interest. But my gosh, all of you bring up such amazing points, and it's just fascinating to hear how our inner conversations are. Self talk is so different. That's the beauty of it. I think, you know, the first question that stands out in my mind that I when I'm working with clients and also when I'm mentoring athletes, the first question that I asked them to ask themselves is who are you? Not only beyond sport, but who are you besides all of these achievements and accomplishments, Because I think, you know, once you get to a certain level, you just that becomes a huge part of your identity. You know, it's so attached to what we do. And again, it's like detaching that part, you know. And I've talked about this before publicly, but obviously I'm a big proponent of counseling and therapy. And when I was sitting in the client chair with my therapist at thirty one years old, and she said, okay, well who is prim beyond the grades and beyond tennis and beyond the achievements, and I literally just I sat there in silence, and I started. I just broke down because I knew that at thirty one years old, because I didn't have an answer, I knew that my lack of answer was the answer to all of the issues and struggles that I was going through. But the identity part dr P is such a complicated aspect of this, is it not? Well, it's very complicated. And I have found in years of practice that the question who am I forces you to look outside and attach am I? This? Am I? That? Am I the other? And well that fits? Well, it only fits for so long. Well maybe this is a better fit, and so you're always going out outside. It's it's exactly like putting on a costume. I like how this looks and feels, but tomorrow it's yesterday's news. And while I understand that and support question, I still go back to the basics. What is it you want to discover about yourself? What is your north star goal? You mentioned long time ago, tribe mention something very beautifully that I want the audience to really focus on. She has an exercise for her athletes where they uh sort of an act of kindness exercise where you write a letter to somebody who hoped you along the way. What that does and its simplicity, it forces an athlete out of their own head and it allows them to serve others. And when you can do that, the best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others and you find it there not always that person or that job or that career. Fact, I was blessed with a mentor who taught us one thing. If you're looking for a job, after you finish a job, as an acronym for just overbroke, everybody get a job, But a career is an expression of who you are. But if you express who you are, you have to discover who that is. And academics relationships sport all of those opportunities to stimulate out of you that which you already have, So I we are all on the journey of discovery and it's in fact. Mark Twain was I think credited with saying the two most important days in a perfect person's life the day they're born and the day they find out why this is about purpose? And the last thing I'll to share an experience I had actually with when I began this role as the director of the mental health and wellness program for the Players Association. The journalists asked me, well, dr, how are you going to start something from scratch when you're already teaching, you publish, you have a private practice at the time you consult. How are you going to do yet this thing from scratch? And I looked at her, and without sounding arrogant, I said, quite easily, one because I dreamed about it. My wife and I had conversations fifteen years before. If any professional system ever decided to have a mental health and wellness program, wele' looklike sorry. Started looking at it in that way, and that was so easy. But then I gave her the following analogy. I said, if you were to come to our home for dinner, my wife and I would serve you a play of food. They probably had four items on it. It's your chicken, some pasta rice, vegetable of some kind, but also a dinner rot. So four things that smell different, look different, tastes different, and nourish different. But those four items are like I my colleagues have had in our careers. We teach, publish, consult private practice beginning back to the dinner. Even though there are four items that look, smell, tastes, endurs differently, the common denominator is that their on one plate. And so everything that I have done on my colleagues have done is on one plate, and that plate is serving others. So my job, my career, it's been one serving others. So when I'm teaching, writing, consulting, you doing whatever is in service to others. So I'm blessed having with one career and that's it, and I can lock into than that. Then no matter what I do, that comes through and I feel that I can do multiple things and you lock. So again it's finding it in here. Two parts, hopefully I don't forget them as I'm talking. But when you were when you were talking about when when whoever that was that that asked you it's like, Okay, you're starting this mental health program from scratch for the m v P A. Do you like it's really the first of its kind or one of the first of its kind. I remember when you and I spoke a few years ago and you came on my show. We talked. I had this long conversation two and a half hours, and I was I had not I don't think I had not decided ongoing and getting my PhD just yet, but I was so fascinated the ideas, like, oh my god, this is amazing a mental health program at the professional level. And I said, I remember asking you, dr P, but do you know are there foundational? Are their pillars that are going to make a mental Like how do you know what pieces come together to make it a successful and effective wine? And You're like yeah, um, But now knowing the context of you have dreamt about this and thought about this for so long, it really makes sense. And the other part is just about the emotional nourishment. So I really want to connect the dots because people that are listening to this conversation, especially the student athletes, are like, oh my gosh, we're just talking about the end and retirement and identity, Like, what does this really have to do with me and all this other stuff? I mean, basically it boils down to the intersection of how sports influences us as people and how our personal development is deeply intert intertwined and interacts with our athletic experience, and then tying it back to the LG transparent conversations, the focus on mental health. So I want to go around the table. How does this conversation connect to the topic of student athlete mental health or just athlete mental sports and mental health in general. THAT'SY. Can I go to you first? UM? I mean, it's all about that. UM. I think it's awesome that their resources built in for student athletes to um CE sports psychologists or therapists on campus for free. And I wish I would have taken advantage of that when I was here. UM, it just feels scary. It feels like maybe not normal, and I feel like it's becoming more normalized that like it's okay to go talk to someone and UM, just get your mind right, because that's what's way more important than your sport, even though when you're living in your sport and you're wanting to get the winds, like it feels like that's all that matters, Like there's so much more to that than just the winds, So just take time for yourself. Um, I can't remember what the actual question was you hit it. It was really sorry. It was really about just what how our conversation is connected to just mental health in general and really connecting the dots, and you answered it perfectly and you can. There's no wrong answer, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I just think it's important for these student athletes to know that, like what you're learning now goes beyond the sport. And yeah, again it's hard to see in the moment, but take advantage of those resources. And I'm still using skills and tools that I learned in college now in my life as a mom, as my in my life as an athlete. Um, and those tools go a long way. How about you, Toria, How does this conversation connect with just athlete and mental health and well being? Yeah? What what comes to mind for me is, um, you know they're setting the base so right now, sport is kind of what everything is revolving around, and later it could be you know, being a spouse or your career, not just the job. Right, But it's finding balance and everything that you're doing and finding time for yourself and not being afraid to ask for help or being an advocate for yourself and speaking up when you need something, um you know again, whether it's from your spouse or uh, finding time for your kids because I know you know, balancing now for them, of gal, I have practice and now I have weights, and we have conditioning, and I have tutoring and now I have study. Hall. I mean as a mom, I'm thinking how we got to get to basketball practice, and we got to get to dance class, and we're going everywhere and sometimes I need to slow down and find a day for myself or just ask for help from either a family member, friend. And there's so many resources and people out there that want to help you. Um, I think we just forget about that sometimes and think that as a mom or an athlete, we have to figure it all out by ourselves. So it's just it's practice and right now. Again the resources are free and people are kind of pushing them on you. But it's just gonna make things a little uh, I don't want to say easier, but you have the template for yourselves. Once you're you leave college because now you know how to be an advocate for yourself and try to figure out how to just be happy. Yeah. Uh, the aspect of asking for help is really complicated because I think in sports, to achieve a certain level, you kind of have to learn how to rely on yourself and be really dependent on just your own abilities and and um, your performance is reliant on that. And yet that same mindset can get in the way of everything else that goes on in real life, Like we have to know how to ask for help, even just from a business sense, like for me really kind of evolving into this entrepreneurial role. You cannot start a business by yourself, like you need teammates, You need a good team of people around you. So talking about just let's talk about I want to talk about just the general topic of mental health, um, because I think it relates to this topic in the sense of like, okay, so do an athlete experience and mental health and well being beyond the college experience. But mental health is obviously exists on expectrum. It affects everybody in different ways. But this is a topic that's changing. It's kind of trendy, which it wasn't several years ago. It is also, at various points kind of controversial. Some people love to engage with it. Some people want to engage it in a way and capitalize on it because it seems like a business opportunity, and other people are kind of turned off by it. So Dr Pete, how do we push this conversation forward and and maybe shift the I don't know, conversation or perspective on the just the general construct of mental health. Uh. Several suggestors come to mind. One, I think what you were doing here with this transparent conversations even the title of this program is marketing. That is okay to be transparent, But I think you have to have a form and an opportunity to talk about it. You have to have real people with realized its, real successes, sharing and feeling comfortable sharing their vulnerability. Uh. And often if you listen enough, you start hearing things that you don't pay attention to. I want to book some to Betsy said that really touched me. She as a gifted athlete is put in the work, but she called on her dad who she never knew. Well, that's part of her psychology, as part of her mental health. The phrase we actually use now is your mental health, is your mental wealth. That's part of her wealth, that legacy. She never even knew she had that sort of wellness fund in her bank account and her emotional bank account, but through her participation in sport, it's coming out. But part of why it's it's difficult to I'm not convinced. Let me back up, I'm not convinced that it's difficult to ask for help. I think people don't ask for help her self protective reasons. I mean, if we're real, we live and assist them of inequity and structural separatism. What we do. Women do not have the same perks as guys do. When you throw in race, class, religion, a lot of markets of personal identity, that's when you start saying, do you really trust everybody? The answer is no. So not going for help while it is costly, it is a self protective move. So I think we have to teach people how to protect themselves differently, and one of the ways is sharing the vulnerability, listening to the stories because everybody has one, and really normalizing this. But I think you also have to invoke the history of mental illness and the professions, because what the professions promote historically and even in contemporary times, is that there's something wrong with you, all of psychiatry and psychology. Let me stick with psychology. When you understand the history of it, it's rooted in models of pathology which they borrowed from medicine. There's something wrong and deficient with you. And we've been taught that for generations. And then again when you put on the other markers of identity, gender, race, culture, et cetera, and you understand sexism is real, racism is real, classism is real. We don't like to talk about it. In fact, we are incentivized to not talk about as we are incentivized not to talk about our real struggles. And because we want to excel the state which be liked, we abide by the unofficial rule and we don't talk about until we are forced to, such as when COVID is and and that's where people said to heck with this, I'm gonna talk about it anyway. And when they start talking, everybody says, I'm glad you're talking, because that's exactly what's been in my heart all these years. So having a conversation being raw and real, it's important having diverse audiences. Uh, this concept that you're having here, I think needs to be transported regularly. Excuse me, because there's just so many issues to talk about, and at the same time realized the you're gonna be people don't want to hear it. As I said at the top of the hour, the systems of athletics, including n C double A professional sports have not failed at addressing the mental health and wellness of student athletes or professional athletes. Those systems have succeeded at not addressing it. And it's not until the voice of the players came up and said, I'm willing to do this, but you gotta see me, not just my performance. So when he started voicing the person before the poor person before a performance mantra, that's when it goes. But we have to keep this ship moving. We have to, you know, in order to set say you gotta ntire yourself from doc and I think we untired or keep saying that, Yeah, I want to stay on this because I think this is really important because you you and I had multiple conversations, especially over the past two months or so as we are launching this project, and you know, I was leaning on you, as you know in terms of just like general advice, consultation, navigating, navigating a lot of the barriers that we were experiencing. And it goes back to the systemic issues, because there are people that are really kind of scared about this topic and maybe not necessarily scared in the way maybe they might be scared and participating, but they're obviously scared about you know, well if you if you go out there and you go public with something, you could say something wrong and then I am held liable or the school is held liable, where the n C double A is held liable, or the coach or the team or the whoever whatever, And I really do I get that. I get that for you know, being in my er of the media and then now shifting over to I understand that dynamic. It's very complicated and we all do kind of have that responsibility and we want to protect ourselves, but at the same time, it is so important to call out those barriers and those those systemic issues. So Riyah, Betsy, when we're talking about some of those systemic issues and with regards to just mental health and sports, does anything come to mind for either one of you? Yeah, definitely, I think it is a hard dynamic because like the US say are the Olympic Committee, like they want medals, they want performance, and um, it's just hard to juggle, like, you know, putting the person first and not just focusing on performance. Um. And I think it can start from like coaches in the collegiate level, I think you're doing a great job and um. I worked with John Mayer with the Beach volleyball team, and he's great about putting the person first. You matter more than your performance, and I think that brings out the best in the athletes too. They developed this trust and they learned like it's okay, I can speak up if I'm not feeling my best, and um, you might need like a mental health day. I know we had an athlete in the past, like she was just overwhelmed and stressed and had so much going on in her life. And um, John just like, let's like take the afternoon afternoon off. And how often do you hear a coach say like take practice off? Um, it's hard. I like how I grew up, Like you don't miss practice, you you're sick, you go to practice, you have something going wrong, like you're going to practice. Um. And I think it's important for coaches to listen to their athletes and um know that they need they need time for themselves to They're juggling a lot in college and learning who they are, and um, just to listen to them and put them first is way more important and it's going to help them be better athletes and be better long term. Yeah, it's ryan. I was just even thinking a more uh simplistic idea of when I'm asking my athletes how are you doing? Sometimes I feel like they don't even want to give me the full scale because they're worried that I may judge them. Not even just everybody, but just am I going to lose my spot because she thinks I'm weak or I'm soft or just the way that they're right. Like my coach never told me anything like that, but it was, oh, I can't show weakness out there or else I'm not going to get that starting spot again. And it's just, um, it is. It's built in so much and just trying to figure out and build that trust where people can be authentic and be themselves is just hopefully where we can continue to build. Yeah, so to really kind of distill what we're talking about right now. So you know, we talked about the systemic issues. There's definitely a lot of barriers and a lot of resistance. And it all starts up at the top. You know, even if you're looking at a professional sports team, whether or not they have a psychologist on there. I mean, it really starts. It starts with the brass, is it not dr P, And it really trickles down. It's the same thing in college sports, is the same thing at a university and institution. Um. I really for me personally, I really believe that the top sets the tone and the culture. So that's the systemic issues we're talking about that And then what you're talking about is also like the culture of sport, those elements where you know, there a lot of athletes. I was one of those athletes because it's like I can't tell my coach that something's wrong. He's gonna he's gonna think that, you know, I'm not deserving to play. Something's wrong with me. I'm off, I'm not going to perform all of those other stuff. And so at the lower levels, at that you know, really specific levels. Um, it does create a climate, regardless of whatever these elements are of making it really hard for athletes to come out and talk. Okay, no, I agree, And I think there's not going to be a day anytime soon where those barriers and forces that don't want to hear the truth are gone. I think it's going to be ever present. I think those of that can be good news because if you know what's out there, you know how to navigate it. And while a coach very genuinely might say hey, what's on your mind, and an athlete, for self protective reasons say I'm cool, if the athlete is really struggling here, she can also then go get some support elsewhere. One of the things we're promoting this year in the players Association with teams were elevating the value the importance of self care, beginning back to the study that you're about to engage in communal care. It's as important as self care. We are our brother's keeper or sister's keeper, and asking a simple question and act of kindness, doing things with your commune any can't be healing, can bring out a sense of nurturing, a sense of I am visible, I do count, I do make a difference, I matter, and those sources of nourishment over the course of time, helped build a strength and the conversation. But I also want to get back to a point that we mentioned earlier, and it's another example I had several years ago. I was out of basketball game looking at these guys just hoop phenomenal. I mean, this one particular guy was just making stuff up in the air. It's just like, where did this come from? It just so happens. I knew this athlete had some mighty struggles traumatic and a light bulb went on my head and I said, you know, if this guy is hooping at Hall of Fame levels, carrying around this kind of baggage, I can't begin to imagine how he would sell. For he to have a place to lay his burden down and to begin the process of human He was see an exponential increase in his delivery of sport and exponential added chemistry on the team. Because everybody will say, what is he doing? We would see other teams say, gosh, what are they doing that They want to get into the mix. They was the increased competition, so fans are going, wow, this is cool. Increased paraphernaliar purchase, so everybody wins. You invest in the mental health and wellness of athletes, but you have to be able to see you mean that that's a a part of the human experience. That's okay. The last thing I say, part of the reason people don't ask for it like coaches, like administrators, because when you ask somebody else to come clean and sort of bet it's parent that's clode for that asked me to be transparent. Yeah, and to sort of admit where I'm at in this conversation, and that's the place a lot of people don't want to go. Rather they do it and that I do it. So that's again it's always going to be that tension. But again I think there's ways around. Yeah, I mean, this is what it's all about, like trying to be really raw, trying to be really transparent. It is. You know, it's interesting because I think that you can't you can't not talk about the role social media place because it is just taking over. You know. It changes how we connect with people, It changes how we talk about issues, it changes I mean, if anything, there's a chance that it amplifies community and at the same time it really divides people even more because it sometimes brings out the worst. So how do we how do we continue to push this conversation for just kind of all the things that we just talked about in terms of maybe the systemic issues the culture of sport, and teaching people how to ask the tough questions reflect um, asking for help. How do we push this conversation for it not only for mental health and student athletes, but mental health within the sports landscape. That's a big, big ask. Have all the answers right now, all of them. I mean, I think it starts with us and setting our example and us taking the time to ask how people are and being in a setting that you can't ask and get a real answered, Like not just casually on the street like how are you Everyone's just gonna be like fine, um, but getting into like hind closed doors are just alone time with some one and just asking like like how are you like? Being real? Um, and just being transparent. Like on social media, I'm guilty of just showing like all the highlight reels and all the good things, but there's so much hard and challenging things in between that maybe I don't think to film or to capture um, But just being real on social media ourselves can play a big role. Yeah, Yah, I mean I love what you're doing obviously traveling the country and creating these conversations. I mean, even just for me myself preparing to come here today, I reached out to some of my former teammates and friends and just I asked them because I'm still in the game too, but just how did they feel when they retired or they moved on? And I hadn't really ever asked some of them those questions. So it's, um, I think when all of us have these conversations, then we go off and have a conversation with another group, and then hopefully they continue to do the same thing, and it just kind of spreads, you know. Um, But uh, I agree, I I laugh because the social media part of it. You know, Luckily back in my day, we didn't have this, so we did not They didn't know how dumb we were or right, you know, I laugh. It's like you had to search on the message board to find out what somebody thought of you, or you know, whatever the case is. But it's just you know, reminding everybody. Um, it's everybody has their own experience and everybody gets things at a different rate, and we're all here for a different reason and continue to find our wise. Yeah, I love both of your points. That's so interesting. You're right. I mean, it's all about we let's say we have to be right. We have to learn how to be raw or on social media rather than putting up this facade and then to riot what you were talking about. You're so, that's that's really true. I've never really thought about it that way. If we engage in a different kind of conversation and a different level of truth, it's going to kind of have this trickle, trickle down or trickle out effect where it's like, Okay, now it's gonna start, it's gonna prompt other real conversations. So I'm gonna follow up engaging in those conversations with your former teammates. Is there anything that you learned about them or just their transition from sport or anything else. I think more of them struggled than I thought. You know, they just same social media. You're following them. They're these gorgeous women that are strong, and you think they're so confident, and how they felt like they were falling short in so many areas of their lives. I don't think I would have known that, um, and some of them are my closest friends, and just it's funny how a few of them have found their way back into sport, whether it was just coaching their little ones or volunteering at the local high school, or it just gave them that sense of giving back and I can be a leader or I can be a role model and not just um focusing on what am I doing? How much money am I making? Is this really what I'm supposed to be doing, and still trying to find their way, So it's uh, it's been eye opening for me and I'm just I'm thankful that I had this opportunity here with you because it opened up that door. With that, I'm going to capitalize on something because I want the audience to really here, to rise excitement. Her voice elevated, her eyes are twinkling, and I'm trying to make you uncomfortable, but I think it's important. She talks about sharing her story with others, which sparkles, but she also asked how are you doing? And her friends trust her friends gave a response. So reaching out to somebody, not only did she get some clarity and confirmation that I'm not the only one going through this, I'd be willing to bear my professional reputation. She less than with healing because they felt visible, they felt heard sometimes for the first time. She's known them all their lives. But I'd be willing to back at some point they really said, well, people don't really know me. So having these kind of conversations like you're having the transparent conversation to get the public discourse. But these things are so simple. Caring about somebody else, putting yourself saying how are you doing really, and hearing from them what's going on. They are receiving a healing energy from it. Then, like somebody cares about me, I'm visible, and you are feeling good because you are helping them to discover those talented genes. So it's a boomerang effect and if we can keep that going, it's gonna be game changing. It definitely makes me think about my experience. A few years ago. I was covering easychampionship tennis championships. Gosh, I think it was eighteen, and I think around that time I had just finished I went back and played professional tennis for a little bit, and then I was just completing my master's um in educational school and counseling psychology, and I was really like searching for answers about a lot of things, just about sport and personal development and my issues if other people did and I kind of had that same I had those same conversations, but it was out of curiosity because I was like, I was really searching for answers, and I had these conversations with my teammates that I just had never had before. And these are people that I've known since I since I was a child. And you know, as teammates, you're you travel on the plane and parties and hotel and on the quarter field. I mean, blood, sweat, tears, I mean everything you might even hold be holding their hair back at a party one night while they're you know, go into crazy. You have all these like intimate moments, and it's crazy how you can know somebody for so long. But if you don't approach a conversation in a different way or ask a certain questions, you'll never know anything about that person. I mean, does it when we're talking about this, because this is what it's all about, is like engaging in different conversations with the people that we love and care about. What what comes up for you, Betsy, did it make you think about maybe any of your teammates, your experience, maybe things that you would like to continue to work on. Definitely. I didn't realize how big relationships are while I was in college. I was just so focused on school and volleyball UM. And now I have great lifelong friends from the sport UM and it's incredible. But I don't think I've had those like real transparent conversations with them, and even thinking with like my family, like do I ask my mom, Mike, how are you? Like? Just little things like that like I can definitely work on and just yeah, being more open with them as well. Um yeah, I think I think this is a great conversation to have and I can be having it more. Yeah. Yeah, dr P or to Riah, I think, um since going into quarantine, and I think dr P hit on this earlier of more intimate conversations and we say intimate, but deeper level even on social media and finding out different political views or race views or um even just what is important to people. Now things changing since COVID, Uh, I think more conversations are happening, but um, I hope we continue to to stay in this space as well. But it's just it's interesting how um as I'm getting older and having these types of conversations, it's just your you know that that self reflection and it is you know, I've had so many teammates reach out of you know, we never really talked about this or you know, you being biracial back in the day and how it's happening. And it has evolved over the last couple of years. But I hope we do continue to grow with this. And the biracial identity is who she has always been, who she will always be. And then when we are forced to not talk about it, I e deny it. That doesn't do good. We distinguished ourselves nonetheless, but there's an emptiness there. There's a part of you that can't be expressed, and you can put up with that for so long, agam the pandemic in it yet and literally the whole world was shut down. You were introduced to a new reality. See, because when you go to sports, when you go to work, when you go to Starbucks, when you do life, it really serves two purposes, not just one. The first purpose is that you get nourished emotionally, you feel accomplished, you feel good about yourself, you feel like there's a purpose, there's a meaning to get up every day. So all of that stuff is true, but what engage in then those outside activities also does it prevents you from having to deal with stuff you talk about. And so when that was stripped away literally and you were forced now to be still and be there, that's an uncomfortable about because when you look in the mirror and you don't like the image you see in the mirror, it's not the fault of the mirror. There's some stuff you have to do and when you're forced to do it. Many people took the opportunity and did him. Some people say, oh, I just waited, this pandemic passes, but guess what, we're still in it. And so you have abundant opportunity. It's sort of come clean and and just see how much more you have inside of you despite your external accomplishments, gold medals, trophies, all of that. Again, I go on recordency and I've yet to see goat in any sport, in any career, in any profession, because they're still untapped potential that's there to be tapped. Yeah, it's it's interesting, right, We're always growing, we're always evolving, and sports is obviously such. I mean, it's the best thing that that's ever happened to me. I would imagine it's the best thing that's happened to the rest of you because of just the role that it plays. But in many ways, yeah, it gives us something to focus on, and yet it kind of, um, I don't want to say inhibit but you know, it gave me what I needed as a child. But now, because I avoided addressing some of those things that you just talked about everybody has talked about, I'm now just really trying to reconcile and think and reflect, especially as I'm going through my clinical training, because this is really important. You talk about intersectionality and um gender and identity and race, and for me being an Asian American, what was it like being a member of the bipop community and growing up in the Midwest, you know, and really being one of you know, being a minority in that and how did that affect me? I mean That's why it's just, you know, I really relied on sport, so you know, really tying this all back together and and talking about how, you know, mental health and just general well being is so important, not only for student athletes, but as we move forward into the next chapter whenever that maybe what do you think you all would have told yourself at twenty two years old or eighteen years old that might help allow you to navigate, you know, into the next chapter of your lives and go to Betsy and to Ryan either one. I think for me, I would have told myself it's okay to feel what you feel, feel it and then be able to move on instead of pushing it aside and building up, giving yourself ulcers, right and just kind of overthinking everything. But um, also try to find balance sooner, not just be so consumed with I want to win a national title, I have to get this grade in a class. It's it's okay to want those things and have those goals, but then to step away at time and just again have those moments of self reflection and self care moments. Betsy, Yeah, very similar. Um, just reminding myself that's not all about the goals, It's about the process getting there and taking time to just reflect and just understand that this is a learning process. And um, what you're doing now in the skills that you're getting right now are going to help you later on in life. And yeah, that'd be a great perspective for me to have at twenty two. I'm so interested to just talk to you after this panel because I feel like we're talking about so many different things that you just wouldn't have address, especially as you're training for the Olympics. You're like, for sure, You're like, I can't believe I'm talking about this stuff. This is uncomfortable and um, but obviously really, you know, really important, and Dr P I want to ask you that question as well, because I know you have many many things on your plate today and you've got to jet out and help all the people that are on your on your slate. So what do you think you would have told your eighteen or twenty two year old self. I probably have started at ten, because that's the eighteen that you're sort of already packaged and really have to prove or disprove what you've been told, but often borrow from my mom. Our mom. She was a single parent and never knew uh that we were unloved an upbringing. We're always felt we had friendships, food on the table. We were not in the upper economic strato e fact, we were technically poor, but we never knew that and so I would I keep feeding on that that what I would have taught myself had I would would have understood at the time that while it does feel that life happens to you, life happens for you. And if somebody had spoken it into me, I would have absorbed some of the slings and arrows that came by and just move forward. I think we've I've finally discovered that that's what you need to do, because, as you learned in athletics, is not what happens to you, is how you respond to it. And I certainly would have done more of that. Um But as I got older, I had I feel blessed to have a single mom who cared. I was doing some volunteer work when I was twelve thirteen years old, and we used to go to these hospitals for the elderly, and this one guy used to always his partying words for us before we went. Before next week, he gave us a puzzle and one I've always remembered this and this when I was twelve years old a couple of years ago. He says, if everybody in the world died right this minute, everybody, what's the one thing that everybody could say with certainty, And at twelve one I didn't quite understand. But even as an adult, I don't know that I would have understood that question because of the variety of people. So we were a puzzled And he came back next week and nobody knew the answer, and he's chuckling, and he's literally getting ready to transition. He's chuckling and just and he said something simple. All five billion people in the world will be able to say some things worked out and some things did m something so simple, and I've never forgot that, And it doesn't change the course of anything. But nobody goes through life perfectly perfectly. And again, there's um. You can't move from pain to power. There's a treasure in every trial. There's slow sorts of things. Had I learned that even earlier, repeatedly sort of embraced that, I think things would have been different. But we are here right now, in this space of time. I think there's no accident based on our marriage experiences to come together and to really as the conversation. And yet, had somebody told you that, would you have ended up where you are today? Probably not that you are there. I don't know about all that well, you know what, this has been such a fun conversation. But Dr P I know, I know you get a jet because you have many things, But I wanted I've said I told you this an hour. Well now it's been two hours or three hours ago. I don't know. We've been talking for a while, but I told you this before. I'm going to tell you this again, especially publicly, and you know, I just really want to thank you for for being there, um, not only as a mentor source of support, but also just kind of navigating through my clinical experience and all those things. And and also when um, I called Dr Pee like as we were about to go off to our first panel at DO and just like towards the end of the conversation, he he just stopped in his powerful Dr Pe ways and he was just like he just just do this for me. Just breathe. Can you just breathe? I was like, what can you can you tell? You tell? You can you tell I'm stressed, you tell I'm tight, I'm you can just And I was like I was like, literally like that's all I needed, you know, because um, this campaign, this LG Transparent Conversations campaign has meant so much to me, and we have a lot of members from the Lupine and Creative Marketing agency that's really put this thing together and as as well as the members from LG Electronics and so anyways, thank you, thank you for all that you do, and thank you for all the help that you continue, um that you continue to do. We're going to take a short break, and it's a good time because the air conditioning just shut off and I'm starting to it's starting to feel like an oven in here, t d um. So I know you'll want us to be hot and bacon, but we might have to turn this back on. So we're gonna take a little break and we're gonna get some We're gonna garner some questions from the audience. So everybody out there, I see you, don't run. Hopefully you have some questions, do you know some of the alright good? So we got some pure good ask some great questions and we will continue um in a few minutes. Thank you really hope you enjoyed today's conversation and took something away from it. Stay tuned next week for another episode of the l G Transparent Conversation series on student athlete mental health and well being for all things LG Transparent Conversations, be sure to check out the website LG dot com forward slash US forward Slash Transparent Dash Conversations. Also for other episodes of the Next Chapter, be sure to check out our home page on I heart Radio or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch the full version of these interviews on YouTube just search for the title name the Next Chapter with prim srippa pet and you can also follow me on all my social media platforms at prim underscore Sripapat the Next Chapter with prim srip Papat is a production of I Heart Radio. 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