It is very hard to disagree. You'll hear this when you hear people talking about decisions. Paul, can you agree to this? Paul? Can I get your agreement on this? What needs to be true to get the room to agree. We don't need agreement. The better we disagree, the faster we decide.

It is very hard to disagree. You'll hear this when you hear people talking about decisions. Paul, can you agree to this? Paul? Can I get your agreement on this? What needs to be true to get the room to agree. We don't need agreement. The better we disagree, the faster we decide.

Hey, everyone, before we get into this week's podcast, we got a pretty cool announcement to make you are not able to connect with us. We have a pretty cool little widget that's on the website. Just go to poletailor dot biz Forwards Life Podcast and near the top of the page you'll see a little icon that says send a message to the poll Tailor podcast. And so what we can do with that You just click on that and then you send us an audio message and we will get the audio message. Now, the first thing I want to do with using it is actually do and ask me anything episode. So all you gotta do if you got a question that we want me to cover is just go to Paul Taylor dot b is z Forward Slash podcast and on start the recording, and then send us a message about what you would like me to talk about, and they ask me anything and leave your name. We will call it out on the show. I'll get that all put together. And the other thing you can do is just leave us a message about what you like about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast. I talk to a bouch all of that sort of stuff, and just give us some feedback and we will use that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from you now I hover the podcast.

Hey, everyone, before we get into this week's podcast, we got a pretty cool announcement to make you are not able to connect with us. We have a pretty cool little widget that's on the website. Just go to poletailor dot biz Forwards Life Podcast and near the top of the page you'll see a little icon that says send a message to the poll Tailor podcast. And so what we can do with that You just click on that and then you send us an audio message and we will get the audio message. Now, the first thing I want to do with using it is actually do and ask me anything episode. So all you gotta do if you got a question that we want me to cover is just go to Paul Taylor dot b is z Forward Slash podcast and on start the recording, and then send us a message about what you would like me to talk about, and they ask me anything and leave your name. We will call it out on the show. I'll get that all put together. And the other thing you can do is just leave us a message about what you like about the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast. I talk to a bouch all of that sort of stuff, and just give us some feedback and we will use that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from you now I hover the podcast.

It's a silver Welcome to the podcast.

It's a silver Welcome to the podcast.

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me excited the chat all the.

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me excited the chat all the.

Way from Toronto. What's the weather like over in Toronto?

Way from Toronto. What's the weather like over in Toronto?

Now you've just at the tail end of spring.

Now you've just at the tail end of spring.

It's amazing. Actually it's usually called here around now, but today was twenty four degrees, nice breeze. Its beautiful.

It's amazing. Actually it's usually called here around now, but today was twenty four degrees, nice breeze. Its beautiful.

So Canadians talk canadianstock centigrade.

So Canadians talk canadianstock centigrade.

I mean, we could do fair night if you want, but yeah, my brain works in celsius.

I mean, we could do fair night if you want, but yeah, my brain works in celsius.

Ah. I didn't realize that that Canadians were celsius slice centigrade.

Ah. I didn't realize that that Canadians were celsius slice centigrade.

I know, it's weird though, So we're metric everywhere, but human weights and heights, Like I could tell you my height in feet in inches, yes, but I have to start to calculate it in centimeters. I don't know why, but if you ask me how far away something is, I'll answer in meters.

I know, it's weird though, So we're metric everywhere, but human weights and heights, Like I could tell you my height in feet in inches, yes, but I have to start to calculate it in centimeters. I don't know why, but if you ask me how far away something is, I'll answer in meters.

That's very like the UK. That's right, so and and and it's weird.

That's very like the UK. That's right, so and and and it's weird.

And it's interesting living in northern Ireland, right because everything is in miles in the north, and then you drive over the border into the size that Republic of Ireland and everything's in kilometers. But you know, I've grown up in feet and inches talking about height, but also in miles. But interesting, having lived in nausea for twenty years, I'm not fully metric. Apart from the height thing. I always still have to.

And it's interesting living in northern Ireland, right because everything is in miles in the north, and then you drive over the border into the size that Republic of Ireland and everything's in kilometers. But you know, I've grown up in feet and inches talking about height, but also in miles. But interesting, having lived in nausea for twenty years, I'm not fully metric. Apart from the height thing. I always still have to.

Trans feed anytime I get an official form. It's like how many centimeters are you? I'm like, oh good, God.

Trans feed anytime I get an official form. It's like how many centimeters are you? I'm like, oh good, God.

Like here he does.

Like here he does.

So to tell us a little bit, this one is a little bit different. This podcast. We're really going to talk about work and life and kind of getting what you want with what you have, which is I really like and I love the type of your book, The Grass is Greener, So tell us a little bit about your background professional background, because it's it's quite interesting and I think audience members will get why I'm talking to you once you've talked through that.

So to tell us a little bit, this one is a little bit different. This podcast. We're really going to talk about work and life and kind of getting what you want with what you have, which is I really like and I love the type of your book, The Grass is Greener, So tell us a little bit about your background professional background, because it's it's quite interesting and I think audience members will get why I'm talking to you once you've talked through that.

Cool.

Cool.

Yeah, happy to I mean, it's one of these things where like every time I explain it, looking back, it feels like I have this well whole idea, like a good idea in my head of this is the path. And at the time it was still is kind of a bit all over the place, but high level dan to where we are today. Engineer by training did a mass was an engineering thought. I was going to be very technicle worked as an engineer for a while software hardware. Wanted to learn business, didn't want to go back to school. I joined a startup and said, hey, I think I can do business. Nothing on paper says I could do business. How about I just come here and work for a little while for free, and let's see what happens. No R no foul. Got very lucky. Executive team there kind of took me under their wing and I got to like, sit here, don't talk, take notes, treatment, but I could sit in all the rooms. So I learned about fundraising, commercialization, deals, all that kind of stuff. It was awesome. From there, I jumped founded my first company. It was like a double you know, happy with it, didn't retire at the age of twenty two. Wanted to go bigger, so did that, went the conventional route, raise VC money, you know, hired up a team two and a half years, maybe a chat for another podcast where we could talk about if you want that company crashed. Lots of learnings out of that. One thought my career was over. You know, no one's ever going to hire me. I'm a total failure? Or what I to do now? And one of my investors, whose money I almost entirely lost, calls me up one day and says, I met this team. I think you should have a chat with them. It was the folks at Airbnb back before Airbnb was. Airbnb joined there when it was you know, a few hundred people got to experience the ramp up to thousands and see what that was like, which was incredible. Left there became the COO of an AI company, back before AI was the cool thing to do and everybody was doing it, and we built that up from the ground floor again, which was really amazing. And now I spend the majority of my time advising other founders, other executives, you know, scale ups, larger corporations, on how to build teams that people are both love working for and are incredibly high performing, which sometimes feels like an oxymoron. And I had this book come out in September, which has been crazy exciting. Never thought I would write a book, you know, all about how to enjoy your job more and how to tactically accomplish that. So it's not just a bunch of platitudes that you know, we all know, like find a job you love, You'll never work a day in your life, like thank you. Go find me one person for whom that's true. Like it. You know, what what can I actually do tactically?

Yeah, happy to I mean, it's one of these things where like every time I explain it, looking back, it feels like I have this well whole idea, like a good idea in my head of this is the path. And at the time it was still is kind of a bit all over the place, but high level dan to where we are today. Engineer by training did a mass was an engineering thought. I was going to be very technicle worked as an engineer for a while software hardware. Wanted to learn business, didn't want to go back to school. I joined a startup and said, hey, I think I can do business. Nothing on paper says I could do business. How about I just come here and work for a little while for free, and let's see what happens. No R no foul. Got very lucky. Executive team there kind of took me under their wing and I got to like, sit here, don't talk, take notes, treatment, but I could sit in all the rooms. So I learned about fundraising, commercialization, deals, all that kind of stuff. It was awesome. From there, I jumped founded my first company. It was like a double you know, happy with it, didn't retire at the age of twenty two. Wanted to go bigger, so did that, went the conventional route, raise VC money, you know, hired up a team two and a half years, maybe a chat for another podcast where we could talk about if you want that company crashed. Lots of learnings out of that. One thought my career was over. You know, no one's ever going to hire me. I'm a total failure? Or what I to do now? And one of my investors, whose money I almost entirely lost, calls me up one day and says, I met this team. I think you should have a chat with them. It was the folks at Airbnb back before Airbnb was. Airbnb joined there when it was you know, a few hundred people got to experience the ramp up to thousands and see what that was like, which was incredible. Left there became the COO of an AI company, back before AI was the cool thing to do and everybody was doing it, and we built that up from the ground floor again, which was really amazing. And now I spend the majority of my time advising other founders, other executives, you know, scale ups, larger corporations, on how to build teams that people are both love working for and are incredibly high performing, which sometimes feels like an oxymoron. And I had this book come out in September, which has been crazy exciting. Never thought I would write a book, you know, all about how to enjoy your job more and how to tactically accomplish that. So it's not just a bunch of platitudes that you know, we all know, like find a job you love, You'll never work a day in your life, like thank you. Go find me one person for whom that's true. Like it. You know, what what can I actually do tactically?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Very cool, I'm here talking to you.

Very cool, I'm here talking to you.

So the startup, the startup ward is a very interesting world, right, So I had a startup, rese some money and you know it's fucking all encompassing, isn't it. It's a pretty full on Please, what were the big lessons that you learned from working in because you've worked in a couple of different startups.

So the startup, the startup ward is a very interesting world, right, So I had a startup, rese some money and you know it's fucking all encompassing, isn't it. It's a pretty full on Please, what were the big lessons that you learned from working in because you've worked in a couple of different startups.

Right, anything that's big that has.

Right, anything that's big that has.

Come out of that startup word that you can apply across the board.

Come out of that startup word that you can apply across the board.

That's a hard question. Yeah, the answer is yes, And I'm struggling. It's like the ideas are rushing out of my mouth and all getting stuck. You know, to pick one is hard. Maybe I would pick one from it. I pick two, you know, one from Airbnb. Maybe they're both kind of airbnb ish. But I've kind of learned I'm a very people first person. Now, you know, you tell me a problem. I work with my clients. They tell me we're not hitting our sales targets, or the engineering team's not moving fast enough, or revenue isn't where we want it to be. And where a lot of people will start unpacking. You know, what's the market, what's this? What's to that? I'm like, who are the people involved, what are they trying to accomplish, what does that look like? And what's getting in the way for them? And this is kind of backwards to the way that I thought about it coming up through my engineering background, where it was very much like what's the problem, how do we solve it? And people are one of many inputs to solving it, but like they're interchangeable, you know, you take me, you take you, you swap us around. We can get the job done. I think that for me that has proven out to be incorrect. And you know, focusing on the people is that old saying. You know, you take care of your people and they'll take care of the problems. I really think hard about how we're building a team around people to what I love doing. How do we make sure that people are feeling fired up to do the work even when it's hard. How are they able to do the best work in their careers. I think it's not easy to put people in that position and sustain it over time.

That's a hard question. Yeah, the answer is yes, And I'm struggling. It's like the ideas are rushing out of my mouth and all getting stuck. You know, to pick one is hard. Maybe I would pick one from it. I pick two, you know, one from Airbnb. Maybe they're both kind of airbnb ish. But I've kind of learned I'm a very people first person. Now, you know, you tell me a problem. I work with my clients. They tell me we're not hitting our sales targets, or the engineering team's not moving fast enough, or revenue isn't where we want it to be. And where a lot of people will start unpacking. You know, what's the market, what's this? What's to that? I'm like, who are the people involved, what are they trying to accomplish, what does that look like? And what's getting in the way for them? And this is kind of backwards to the way that I thought about it coming up through my engineering background, where it was very much like what's the problem, how do we solve it? And people are one of many inputs to solving it, but like they're interchangeable, you know, you take me, you take you, you swap us around. We can get the job done. I think that for me that has proven out to be incorrect. And you know, focusing on the people is that old saying. You know, you take care of your people and they'll take care of the problems. I really think hard about how we're building a team around people to what I love doing. How do we make sure that people are feeling fired up to do the work even when it's hard. How are they able to do the best work in their careers. I think it's not easy to put people in that position and sustain it over time.

A comment on that, and before you get onto the second one.

A comment on that, and before you get onto the second one.

I just did a bit of work with a company in the state.

I just did a bit of work with a company in the state.

It's called One Life Fitness, So they're a fitness chain that have grown pretty quickly and done an amazing job in the fitness industry and just got bought out by VCS and I spent I did a half day with the entire leadership team, got to know the owners of business, and then I went out to their convention and did did three days with all their their kind of key staff in there. And the thing that really struck me I saw it in the first half day that I did with the leadership team, but then just being there with all the people was just how focused they are on people and they had they had actually a twin focus on mission and people, so they were very passionate about the mission. But Jesus today look after their people and were genuinely concerned about their people, and they're I think one of the biggest success stories in the fitness industry.

It's called One Life Fitness, So they're a fitness chain that have grown pretty quickly and done an amazing job in the fitness industry and just got bought out by VCS and I spent I did a half day with the entire leadership team, got to know the owners of business, and then I went out to their convention and did did three days with all their their kind of key staff in there. And the thing that really struck me I saw it in the first half day that I did with the leadership team, but then just being there with all the people was just how focused they are on people and they had they had actually a twin focus on mission and people, so they were very passionate about the mission. But Jesus today look after their people and were genuinely concerned about their people, and they're I think one of the biggest success stories in the fitness industry.

Of lit.

Of lit.

There's a lot that have flindered, but these guys have grown really quickly but kept the culture. And it was just amazing just how much talk there was about culture, culture, culture, people, people, people.

There's a lot that have flindered, but these guys have grown really quickly but kept the culture. And it was just amazing just how much talk there was about culture, culture, culture, people, people, people.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's usually important, you know, we we're saying it. Airbnbs online is Brian Cheski, the CEO, was like, don't fuck up the culture. Pretty simple role, you know. And so you're going to scale, the culture is going to change, but don't screw it up. And to not screw it up, you've got to be talking about it constantly. You've got to be hiring against it. And culture isn't like, oh, we have a ping pong table in like free food. You know, that's not culture. Those are amenities. Culture is like how do we show up for each other? What's the work environment? Like how do we treat each other when we're at work? You know, I think these things are important and often overlook they get the like soft skill Moniker, and I think it's the opposite. You know, you go to companies, a lot of companies, and I'll show me your values. I'll ask the question. Right, we have a tough decision. Should we work with this customer or not? Should we grow into this market or not? Do we hire this leader or get rid of that leader? First question, show me the values. Why are you asking me this question?

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's usually important, you know, we we're saying it. Airbnbs online is Brian Cheski, the CEO, was like, don't fuck up the culture. Pretty simple role, you know. And so you're going to scale, the culture is going to change, but don't screw it up. And to not screw it up, you've got to be talking about it constantly. You've got to be hiring against it. And culture isn't like, oh, we have a ping pong table in like free food. You know, that's not culture. Those are amenities. Culture is like how do we show up for each other? What's the work environment? Like how do we treat each other when we're at work? You know, I think these things are important and often overlook they get the like soft skill Moniker, and I think it's the opposite. You know, you go to companies, a lot of companies, and I'll show me your values. I'll ask the question. Right, we have a tough decision. Should we work with this customer or not? Should we grow into this market or not? Do we hire this leader or get rid of that leader? First question, show me the values. Why are you asking me this question?

Oh?

Oh?

You know, if you're not using your values to make decisions, they're just like a nice piece of art on the wall. And for me, when you have five, six, seven, eight nine values, they're not doing anything for me. Values are something where it's like, I'm prepared to pay a price to adhere to this value. And if I'm not going to pay a price for it, why am I writing it up there? And by price, I mean maybe we're not going to work with this customer because they provide a product that isn't align with our values that's going to cost us something. Maybe I'm not going to hire Paul because you know, he's a great guy and he's highly skilled, but he just doesn't match our culture in the way that we work here. Nothing wrong with him, but you know, we're letting go of where we're not going to hire a person who could be really great. We're not going to go into a market because it doesn't matter of ours whatever it might be. You know, I really like to have people think about values through the lens of what are you prepared to pay a price for? And if you're not going to pay a price for it, it's not a value. They're easy to hop hold and everything's going great A lot harder when things are going well.

You know, if you're not using your values to make decisions, they're just like a nice piece of art on the wall. And for me, when you have five, six, seven, eight nine values, they're not doing anything for me. Values are something where it's like, I'm prepared to pay a price to adhere to this value. And if I'm not going to pay a price for it, why am I writing it up there? And by price, I mean maybe we're not going to work with this customer because they provide a product that isn't align with our values that's going to cost us something. Maybe I'm not going to hire Paul because you know, he's a great guy and he's highly skilled, but he just doesn't match our culture in the way that we work here. Nothing wrong with him, but you know, we're letting go of where we're not going to hire a person who could be really great. We're not going to go into a market because it doesn't matter of ours whatever it might be. You know, I really like to have people think about values through the lens of what are you prepared to pay a price for? And if you're not going to pay a price for it, it's not a value. They're easy to hop hold and everything's going great A lot harder when things are going well.

I love that that we're in violent agreement on that.

I love that that we're in violent agreement on that.

I love your what he.

I love your what he.

Prepared to pay a price for? I've never thought it through that lens. But when I work with organizations, particularly leaders leadership teams, and especially the big organizations, I will often say, right, stand up, who can tell me the purpose of the mission statement of this organization? Right? And a bunch of people stand up, and I say, remain standing if you can get a word by word for beatum. And then and then some people sit down and say, remain standing if you're willing to put a thousand dollars on it one way, bet right that if you get one word wrong that side and most of the room for you in set time, you probably collected lot. And then I do the values, And my whole thing is that values are not. You know, a lot of people there. It's just a backslapping episode, isn't it. Or they're bringing these external consultants and they get these values that seem really cold, but their behavior is not congruent with their values exactly. For me, mission is where you're going, and values is how you get there.

Prepared to pay a price for? I've never thought it through that lens. But when I work with organizations, particularly leaders leadership teams, and especially the big organizations, I will often say, right, stand up, who can tell me the purpose of the mission statement of this organization? Right? And a bunch of people stand up, and I say, remain standing if you can get a word by word for beatum. And then and then some people sit down and say, remain standing if you're willing to put a thousand dollars on it one way, bet right that if you get one word wrong that side and most of the room for you in set time, you probably collected lot. And then I do the values, And my whole thing is that values are not. You know, a lot of people there. It's just a backslapping episode, isn't it. Or they're bringing these external consultants and they get these values that seem really cold, but their behavior is not congruent with their values exactly. For me, mission is where you're going, and values is how you get there.

And I'm so interested in how you get their story. I think that for me has been the you know we talked behind crashed the company you were kind of asking about, like the second lesson. You know, I think it's some morphed version of when you're in startups, like it is an ego buster. I have failed in every possible business way that you can imagine, and I'm still standing and things are still going great, and you know, you think that like, oh, this failure is going to get me. If this goes wrong, my career is over. If this happens, I'm done. Not really. People aren't paying as much attention to you as you are to yourself, you know, And there's there's always a good story, so long as the way you got there is aligned with your values to bring the conversation full circle, And you know, I think that's why, like I was shocked when the investor, I'm like, dude, I lost all your money, what are you doing me a favor for And he's like, I watched the way you did this. That was the right way to do. It's not a fault at the company crash. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know, you were a human throughout it and trustworthy throughout it, and you did it the right way and for that reason, I would recommend you for anything. And I was like, ah, you know, I thought it was all about the outcome, and now I think a lot more about the process to get to the outcome. What do the steps look like, what's going on day to day for you? This was like the genesis of the book and just really being more focused on you're doing the right thing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but like overall, it's gonna be a win when you're proud of the steps that you're taking hard to do.

And I'm so interested in how you get their story. I think that for me has been the you know we talked behind crashed the company you were kind of asking about, like the second lesson. You know, I think it's some morphed version of when you're in startups, like it is an ego buster. I have failed in every possible business way that you can imagine, and I'm still standing and things are still going great, and you know, you think that like, oh, this failure is going to get me. If this goes wrong, my career is over. If this happens, I'm done. Not really. People aren't paying as much attention to you as you are to yourself, you know, And there's there's always a good story, so long as the way you got there is aligned with your values to bring the conversation full circle, And you know, I think that's why, like I was shocked when the investor, I'm like, dude, I lost all your money, what are you doing me a favor for And he's like, I watched the way you did this. That was the right way to do. It's not a fault at the company crash. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know, you were a human throughout it and trustworthy throughout it, and you did it the right way and for that reason, I would recommend you for anything. And I was like, ah, you know, I thought it was all about the outcome, and now I think a lot more about the process to get to the outcome. What do the steps look like, what's going on day to day for you? This was like the genesis of the book and just really being more focused on you're doing the right thing. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but like overall, it's gonna be a win when you're proud of the steps that you're taking hard to do.

A couple of questions are a comment on that and what you just said, people are not paying as much attention to you as your paying to yourself. That is a message that needs to be imprinted in every single teenager's brain around the world, right particularly with today and social media, because it's a hard one. I think it's a you know, this is a massive tangent, but that that is a a massive driver of people just being in their own heads and thinking everybody's looking at them, thinking about them, judging them, all that stuff, when in fact, everybody's too busy in their own heads thinking about what others just thinking about. But to bring it back to again, you talked about values. You talked about essentially, what that investor was saying was that you had good character that you know throughout those tribulations. I will often talk an album for a while. Actually I should talk about this a bit more about Shackleton. You're familiar with, arn't Shackleton? And that I mean, for me, if listeners haven't heard this story, the story of endurance is, I think, and leadership lessons, right, I've got actually a book right behind me about leadership lessons from the whole Shackleton thing. But Hayes big thing was hiring on character, because you can teach skills, and he purely hard on character. And one of his other things was sabby haring and faring that as soon as he realized that the person was not of the right character, didn't fit the values. Then he got rid because he knew that. You know, he did not actually know what he was going into, but he knew was going into something that was bloody difficult.

A couple of questions are a comment on that and what you just said, people are not paying as much attention to you as your paying to yourself. That is a message that needs to be imprinted in every single teenager's brain around the world, right particularly with today and social media, because it's a hard one. I think it's a you know, this is a massive tangent, but that that is a a massive driver of people just being in their own heads and thinking everybody's looking at them, thinking about them, judging them, all that stuff, when in fact, everybody's too busy in their own heads thinking about what others just thinking about. But to bring it back to again, you talked about values. You talked about essentially, what that investor was saying was that you had good character that you know throughout those tribulations. I will often talk an album for a while. Actually I should talk about this a bit more about Shackleton. You're familiar with, arn't Shackleton? And that I mean, for me, if listeners haven't heard this story, the story of endurance is, I think, and leadership lessons, right, I've got actually a book right behind me about leadership lessons from the whole Shackleton thing. But Hayes big thing was hiring on character, because you can teach skills, and he purely hard on character. And one of his other things was sabby haring and faring that as soon as he realized that the person was not of the right character, didn't fit the values. Then he got rid because he knew that. You know, he did not actually know what he was going into, but he knew was going into something that was bloody difficult.

Right.

Right.

The more uncertain the path, the more certain you want to be about the people. Like I think, it's yeah, it's that simple. You know, I don't know what we're going to hit. Let's make sure that we're aligned on the way we think through problems, not the same. Last thing I want is ten other me's going with me on a journey. I'm like, that's that's not going to go great for anybody. But I want ten people that are aligned with my value so that I know when things start to go wrong, we're not going to be pushing each other down. We're going to be looking for a way to, you know, pull all of ourselves up. So it's hard, you know, it's Hiring for values is challenging. People can get offended. They think that you're kind of judging their character. It's not that, you know, you can be a great human being and just not a fit for the values of an organization. You know, there are lots of great people who wouldn't fit great in an investment bank. That doesn't mean that the investment bank is wrong or that the people are wrong. It's just like this is not, you know, a great fit. I love baseball. You asked me to play cricket. I'll try, but like that's not something that I'm you know, all that passionate about, and the rules of the game are quite different, so I'm probably not going to be phenomenal at cricket. And I think it's just kind of getting that into the ethos of the organization that every time we make a major decision, the values need to be considered. And what bigger decision than who's going to be on this journey with us and what people do we have to ask to leave, you know, the journey with us for whatever reason. It's very hard. It's a simple thing to say, but it's not an easy thing to do to permeate the values through major decisions inside of an organization.

The more uncertain the path, the more certain you want to be about the people. Like I think, it's yeah, it's that simple. You know, I don't know what we're going to hit. Let's make sure that we're aligned on the way we think through problems, not the same. Last thing I want is ten other me's going with me on a journey. I'm like, that's that's not going to go great for anybody. But I want ten people that are aligned with my value so that I know when things start to go wrong, we're not going to be pushing each other down. We're going to be looking for a way to, you know, pull all of ourselves up. So it's hard, you know, it's Hiring for values is challenging. People can get offended. They think that you're kind of judging their character. It's not that, you know, you can be a great human being and just not a fit for the values of an organization. You know, there are lots of great people who wouldn't fit great in an investment bank. That doesn't mean that the investment bank is wrong or that the people are wrong. It's just like this is not, you know, a great fit. I love baseball. You asked me to play cricket. I'll try, but like that's not something that I'm you know, all that passionate about, and the rules of the game are quite different, so I'm probably not going to be phenomenal at cricket. And I think it's just kind of getting that into the ethos of the organization that every time we make a major decision, the values need to be considered. And what bigger decision than who's going to be on this journey with us and what people do we have to ask to leave, you know, the journey with us for whatever reason. It's very hard. It's a simple thing to say, but it's not an easy thing to do to permeate the values through major decisions inside of an organization.

And I think one of the things that becomes really difficult. I mean, you kind of captured it when you talked about the CEO of Rbnb saying don't fuck up the culture. Really interesting research by a Scottish anthropologists called Dunbar and it just popped into my head for some reason.

And I think one of the things that becomes really difficult. I mean, you kind of captured it when you talked about the CEO of Rbnb saying don't fuck up the culture. Really interesting research by a Scottish anthropologists called Dunbar and it just popped into my head for some reason.

I have no idea.

I have no idea.

But he was an anthropologist who studied basically, you know, anthropologies for him was the study of humans and tribes and how we interact. And he studied human tribes all around the world and came up with something that's now called Dunbar's number.

But he was an anthropologist who studied basically, you know, anthropologies for him was the study of humans and tribes and how we interact. And he studied human tribes all around the world and came up with something that's now called Dunbar's number.

I think I know that, yeah, keep going.

I think I know that, yeah, keep going.

Right, So that what he found in tribal societies was that, you know, as humans, we have always lived in small to medium sized tribes. And Dunbar showed up and over again when a tribe hit about one hundred and twenty to one hundred and thirty people, that it started to fracture, that there started to become lots of subgroups and stuff like that, and competing interests. And Dunbar's number was the kind of the upper limit of a a well functioning tribe. And then other people have taken that and actually applied it to business. And I've talked to a number of startups who are growing and you know, maybe it's not exactly that one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty, but certainly when they get over one hundred, that one hundred to one hundred and fifty. That's when just everything becomes so much more complicated.

Right, So that what he found in tribal societies was that, you know, as humans, we have always lived in small to medium sized tribes. And Dunbar showed up and over again when a tribe hit about one hundred and twenty to one hundred and thirty people, that it started to fracture, that there started to become lots of subgroups and stuff like that, and competing interests. And Dunbar's number was the kind of the upper limit of a a well functioning tribe. And then other people have taken that and actually applied it to business. And I've talked to a number of startups who are growing and you know, maybe it's not exactly that one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty, but certainly when they get over one hundred, that one hundred to one hundred and fifty. That's when just everything becomes so much more complicated.

When you don't know everybody's name. That's the that's my kind of spot is like when you no longer know there goes PAULI. You're like, who's that guy? You know? And that happens to you two three times a day. It's and you're right, I've seen it. The inflection point is somewhere around the low hundreds, and then once you start getting up into like five hundred to one thousand, things shift, and ten thousand they shift again. Like it's it's lots and lots of shifting, you know. That's why you ask a questionary like people dynamics, man, I think it's everything. You can have the best strategy in the world and you can't find a way, like the right system of work, the right values to glue everybody together. You know, the end of the day, if you're going to do something truly transformed, it probably more than one hundred and twenty people are going to need to be involved. So how are they all going to work together in a way that's effective and not? You know, one plus one equals negative one, you know, that's that's that's why I'm so interested in team dynamics and that kind of stuff around. It's not just about the product. I love the product. I love that stuff, but who are the people around it? You know, it's the surest way to crash, and the best way to be successful is to really invest in people.

When you don't know everybody's name. That's the that's my kind of spot is like when you no longer know there goes PAULI. You're like, who's that guy? You know? And that happens to you two three times a day. It's and you're right, I've seen it. The inflection point is somewhere around the low hundreds, and then once you start getting up into like five hundred to one thousand, things shift, and ten thousand they shift again. Like it's it's lots and lots of shifting, you know. That's why you ask a questionary like people dynamics, man, I think it's everything. You can have the best strategy in the world and you can't find a way, like the right system of work, the right values to glue everybody together. You know, the end of the day, if you're going to do something truly transformed, it probably more than one hundred and twenty people are going to need to be involved. So how are they all going to work together in a way that's effective and not? You know, one plus one equals negative one, you know, that's that's that's why I'm so interested in team dynamics and that kind of stuff around. It's not just about the product. I love the product. I love that stuff, but who are the people around it? You know, it's the surest way to crash, and the best way to be successful is to really invest in people.

Okay, so let's not talk about the individual.

Okay, so let's not talk about the individual.

Right, So your book is all about you.

Right, So your book is all about you.

Know, your grass is greener. I like that topic. I sorry that title. It's just kind of appealed to me straight away. Why did you come up with that title?

Know, your grass is greener. I like that topic. I sorry that title. It's just kind of appealed to me straight away. Why did you come up with that title?

I would love to take credit for it, I can't. It has to go to my brother in law. We were kind of work shopping titles and I kind of had the concept and I hadn't found the words yet. And I'm glad to hear you like the title because I love it too and work really really hard at it. But what I was trying to capture is this essence that a lot of times I think we make. Look if you look at work right now, a lot of people are struggling. I think that's you can look at all sorts of different numbers, like look at the number of people that are quiet quitting, or the data on the great resignation millions of people quit and change jobs. Something like eighty percent of them are regretting it now, like people are burning out, they're disengaged. There's just a lot of struggle in the workplace.

I would love to take credit for it, I can't. It has to go to my brother in law. We were kind of work shopping titles and I kind of had the concept and I hadn't found the words yet. And I'm glad to hear you like the title because I love it too and work really really hard at it. But what I was trying to capture is this essence that a lot of times I think we make. Look if you look at work right now, a lot of people are struggling. I think that's you can look at all sorts of different numbers, like look at the number of people that are quiet quitting, or the data on the great resignation millions of people quit and change jobs. Something like eighty percent of them are regretting it now, like people are burning out, they're disengaged. There's just a lot of struggle in the workplace.

I'm going to throw in at Jason just for here, because I read it recently. In New South Wales, which is a big state, it's probably nearly a third of the population of austral It is certainly over a quarter. Psychological injuries are rising at three times the reit of physical injuries in the workplace.

I'm going to throw in at Jason just for here, because I read it recently. In New South Wales, which is a big state, it's probably nearly a third of the population of austral It is certainly over a quarter. Psychological injuries are rising at three times the reit of physical injuries in the workplace.

Yeah, it's a huge problem. And I wanted to like add to the story, and it added to the conversation in a bit of a different way. And I found that a lot of the rhetoric is are these things like find a job you know that you love, and ever work a day in your life. And I think it's true that there are times when you're in a toxic work environment and the only thing you can do is make a change. But for my research, a lot of times we assume that the only thing we can do is make a change, and often there's a lot you can do, like hold up a mirror and some things that you can do that you can change that you're in control of in your job, no matter how micromanager your boss might be. And you do these things and it can improve your work situation a ton. And the worst case is you try these things and it doesn't improve your work situation. Then you know for certain it's time to make a change. But too often we jump to something new we think it's going to be better. The honeymoon period ends because we haven't changed how we work right. The way we're trying to accomplish our ject gives all of the frustrating stuff from the old job, except for maybe you have better snacks now, and a slightly higher salary comes rushing back, right, And.

Yeah, it's a huge problem. And I wanted to like add to the story, and it added to the conversation in a bit of a different way. And I found that a lot of the rhetoric is are these things like find a job you know that you love, and ever work a day in your life. And I think it's true that there are times when you're in a toxic work environment and the only thing you can do is make a change. But for my research, a lot of times we assume that the only thing we can do is make a change, and often there's a lot you can do, like hold up a mirror and some things that you can do that you can change that you're in control of in your job, no matter how micromanager your boss might be. And you do these things and it can improve your work situation a ton. And the worst case is you try these things and it doesn't improve your work situation. Then you know for certain it's time to make a change. But too often we jump to something new we think it's going to be better. The honeymoon period ends because we haven't changed how we work right. The way we're trying to accomplish our ject gives all of the frustrating stuff from the old job, except for maybe you have better snacks now, and a slightly higher salary comes rushing back, right, And.

That's hence the grasp being greener.

That's hence the grasp being greener.

Right, That's right. And what I what I wanted to show people is I started kind of working on these tactics for myself, and what I learned is, geez, like, the things I thought were going to help me enjoy my job more were things like accomplish this, accomplish that, achieve this, add this accolade. Those things were fleeting. You know, I know you'll know this better than me, But like, hedonic adaptation is a real thing I think happens, you know, you peak in my case for like sub five minutes, and you're already thinking about the next objective that you're going to try to hit. But you know, how can you kind of systematically enjoy the journey a little bit more along the way. And as you know, a type A who was very focused on accomplishing things, what I kind of learned is there's like a lot of rejection around this enjoy concept. You know, for me, I was always like, well, I'll enjoy it when I get there, when I retire, when I sell a company, when I make X amount of money, when I get this promotion or finish this project. Enjoyment's always like just over the hill. But if you look into the research, what you find is like, enjoyment isn't the fluff of your job. Enjoyment is the fuel. Like if you enjoy your job more, you're going to increase the probability that you accomplish. The more you enjoy, the more you achieve, the more you achieve, the more you enjoy. It's like this beautiful self fulfilling prophecy. And so I bought into that. But then the question is like, well, what do I do? You know you get another platitude like work smarter, not harder. Everyone's heard this one, right, Yeah, borderline offensive, Like I don't wake up in the morning every day and say to myself, I have a job to do. What's the dumbest way I can get this done. I'm trying my best and someone comes along and like, hey, Jay, you should work smarter. I'm like, okay, do you have any suggestions, because I'm you know, I'm trying. And this was where I kind of flipped over a bunch of these workplace assumptions because I had, you know, systemically experimented with a bunch of stuff, and it completely changed my perspective. I wound up writing this book where it's like the nine most common workplace challenges and a specific tactic that is entirely within your control that you can like put down the book and try. And the kind of guarantee I give folks with the book is like, read the book and try the tactics. It's either going to improve the situation and you're going to be enjoying your job more and achieving more, or it won't and you're going to have some clarity about whether or not that's the right job for you to be in.

Right, That's right. And what I what I wanted to show people is I started kind of working on these tactics for myself, and what I learned is, geez, like, the things I thought were going to help me enjoy my job more were things like accomplish this, accomplish that, achieve this, add this accolade. Those things were fleeting. You know, I know you'll know this better than me, But like, hedonic adaptation is a real thing I think happens, you know, you peak in my case for like sub five minutes, and you're already thinking about the next objective that you're going to try to hit. But you know, how can you kind of systematically enjoy the journey a little bit more along the way. And as you know, a type A who was very focused on accomplishing things, what I kind of learned is there's like a lot of rejection around this enjoy concept. You know, for me, I was always like, well, I'll enjoy it when I get there, when I retire, when I sell a company, when I make X amount of money, when I get this promotion or finish this project. Enjoyment's always like just over the hill. But if you look into the research, what you find is like, enjoyment isn't the fluff of your job. Enjoyment is the fuel. Like if you enjoy your job more, you're going to increase the probability that you accomplish. The more you enjoy, the more you achieve, the more you achieve, the more you enjoy. It's like this beautiful self fulfilling prophecy. And so I bought into that. But then the question is like, well, what do I do? You know you get another platitude like work smarter, not harder. Everyone's heard this one, right, Yeah, borderline offensive, Like I don't wake up in the morning every day and say to myself, I have a job to do. What's the dumbest way I can get this done. I'm trying my best and someone comes along and like, hey, Jay, you should work smarter. I'm like, okay, do you have any suggestions, because I'm you know, I'm trying. And this was where I kind of flipped over a bunch of these workplace assumptions because I had, you know, systemically experimented with a bunch of stuff, and it completely changed my perspective. I wound up writing this book where it's like the nine most common workplace challenges and a specific tactic that is entirely within your control that you can like put down the book and try. And the kind of guarantee I give folks with the book is like, read the book and try the tactics. It's either going to improve the situation and you're going to be enjoying your job more and achieving more, or it won't and you're going to have some clarity about whether or not that's the right job for you to be in.

Yeah, I like it, and look, well we will dive into maybe one or two of those workplace challenges and the tactics that you can use. But a couple of things that popped up when you were talking about that, the hadonic adaptation and they you know, I will enjoy this more when I get there, and then talking about the process. You just kind of summarized a brilliant book. I don't know if you've ever read it, but you shoot. If you haven't, you shoot, because I think you will love it. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle meant.

Yeah, I like it, and look, well we will dive into maybe one or two of those workplace challenges and the tactics that you can use. But a couple of things that popped up when you were talking about that, the hadonic adaptation and they you know, I will enjoy this more when I get there, and then talking about the process. You just kind of summarized a brilliant book. I don't know if you've ever read it, but you shoot. If you haven't, you shoot, because I think you will love it. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle meant.

You read it?

You read it?

Yeah, cool, and that you know the line that's stuck in my head. I think I was seventeen when I read it is you know, he was talking about the top of the mountain and people just just always being focused on getting to the top of the mountain and this one line, sometimes it's better to travel than to get there.

Yeah, cool, and that you know the line that's stuck in my head. I think I was seventeen when I read it is you know, he was talking about the top of the mountain and people just just always being focused on getting to the top of the mountain and this one line, sometimes it's better to travel than to get there.

Yeah. Great book. I'll throw another one back at you. Have you read The Courage to Be Disliked?

Yeah. Great book. I'll throw another one back at you. Have you read The Courage to Be Disliked?

No, But so you're gonna like that.

No, But so you're gonna like that.

You're gonna like this one because I think I think I heard that you were into a lot of Japanese psychology.

You're gonna like this one because I think I think I heard that you were into a lot of Japanese psychology.

I think, yeah, yeah, my wife's a practitioner in it.

I think, yeah, yeah, my wife's a practitioner in it.

So that's why I thought, yeah, you're gonna love this book. Amazing analogy in there where it's something to me and I'm going to butcher it terrible. You're going to read the book and email me in three weeks and say, dude, you've totally screwed it up. But like, the concept is, we all have this idea that life is like a mountain climb. We're trying to get to the peak. And the point in the book is it's not climbing a mountain. It's dancing. Right. You're active and you're moving, but you're not going.

So that's why I thought, yeah, you're gonna love this book. Amazing analogy in there where it's something to me and I'm going to butcher it terrible. You're going to read the book and email me in three weeks and say, dude, you've totally screwed it up. But like, the concept is, we all have this idea that life is like a mountain climb. We're trying to get to the peak. And the point in the book is it's not climbing a mountain. It's dancing. Right. You're active and you're moving, but you're not going.

Anywhere and nice right, and they're.

Anywhere and nice right, and they're.

Objectives, but they don't take you to any place. Yeah, and when you shift your mentality from trying to get to the peak to trying to do the best dance, you know, it can really have a big, big impact and the courage would be Dislike for me, it's one of those ones where it's just like you read the book and it like flip my brain inside out a little bit. I'm like, that's perspective shifting. Like I I highly recommend it. It's a bit of a tough read to get through because it's translated from Japanese. So the flow is yeah, yeah, that's worth it. In my opinion, it's really really worth it.

Objectives, but they don't take you to any place. Yeah, and when you shift your mentality from trying to get to the peak to trying to do the best dance, you know, it can really have a big, big impact and the courage would be Dislike for me, it's one of those ones where it's just like you read the book and it like flip my brain inside out a little bit. I'm like, that's perspective shifting. Like I I highly recommend it. It's a bit of a tough read to get through because it's translated from Japanese. So the flow is yeah, yeah, that's worth it. In my opinion, it's really really worth it.

Cool.

Cool.

Right, that's on to the top of my list before we jump into the workplace thing. You said one of the things that I was quite intrigued about is that you seem to be your own scientist, which I love. So you've said that you've tried a whole heap of personal and professional wellness experiments that didn't work. Talk to me about some of the fuck ups. Talk to me. Oh, actually, you know, we often call the field experiments. But you know, Thomas Edison famously said, you know when he was trying to ten size and field experiments, and he was like, with every field experiment, I'm one step closer, right, I know what doesn't work. So give us some maybe a couple of experiments that you try that just flopped. Oh, I mean, and and what did you learn?

Right, that's on to the top of my list before we jump into the workplace thing. You said one of the things that I was quite intrigued about is that you seem to be your own scientist, which I love. So you've said that you've tried a whole heap of personal and professional wellness experiments that didn't work. Talk to me about some of the fuck ups. Talk to me. Oh, actually, you know, we often call the field experiments. But you know, Thomas Edison famously said, you know when he was trying to ten size and field experiments, and he was like, with every field experiment, I'm one step closer, right, I know what doesn't work. So give us some maybe a couple of experiments that you try that just flopped. Oh, I mean, and and what did you learn?

We could talk for hours about this, for sure, and I can. I could even give you one in the middle that was like one of the only like maybe ones. A lot of them were quite conclusive, either very good, clearly not good, or like right in the middle. So the long and short is. I went like super deep, you know, like Tim Ferris before I knew who Tim Ferriss, was like if there was a thing somewhere that said this will make you feel better, do better, or perform better. I was like, game on, I'm gonna try that. And I kept this tracker and I was running probably somewhere between like two and four different like experiments every single week, and I would measure it every single day, and I had all this like interesting day. It was really it was really good. That went on for about two years, and then I brought it to the workplace so we can.

We could talk for hours about this, for sure, and I can. I could even give you one in the middle that was like one of the only like maybe ones. A lot of them were quite conclusive, either very good, clearly not good, or like right in the middle. So the long and short is. I went like super deep, you know, like Tim Ferris before I knew who Tim Ferriss, was like if there was a thing somewhere that said this will make you feel better, do better, or perform better. I was like, game on, I'm gonna try that. And I kept this tracker and I was running probably somewhere between like two and four different like experiments every single week, and I would measure it every single day, and I had all this like interesting day. It was really it was really good. That went on for about two years, and then I brought it to the workplace so we can.

Talk about the engineer and you is coming pretty strong.

Talk about the engineer and you is coming pretty strong.

This was like from startups, you know. I was used to the idea of when you're trying to get product market fit. You have a thing, you have an idea, you want to put the product in market. You're always wrong. You try it, you iterate it, you have hypotheses, you test and learn. I did that on myself, right. I was the product and I was like, let's test and learn and see what happens here. So I had read this book. You asked them some of the ones that didn't go swimmingly. I had read this book about the microbiome, and it blew my mind. You know, I never thought about this idea that you know, I'm this one person and there are billions of these things on my skin, inside of me, and they have a huge impact on my health, my mood, my wellness. Never thought about this great mic or biome sounds awesome. Here's the thing. When we shower, the hypothesis went, and we're constantly using cleaning products on our body, we are altering our microbiome and we're not altering it for the better. So the test is stop with all of the cleaning.

This was like from startups, you know. I was used to the idea of when you're trying to get product market fit. You have a thing, you have an idea, you want to put the product in market. You're always wrong. You try it, you iterate it, you have hypotheses, you test and learn. I did that on myself, right. I was the product and I was like, let's test and learn and see what happens here. So I had read this book. You asked them some of the ones that didn't go swimmingly. I had read this book about the microbiome, and it blew my mind. You know, I never thought about this idea that you know, I'm this one person and there are billions of these things on my skin, inside of me, and they have a huge impact on my health, my mood, my wellness. Never thought about this great mic or biome sounds awesome. Here's the thing. When we shower, the hypothesis went, and we're constantly using cleaning products on our body, we are altering our microbiome and we're not altering it for the better. So the test is stop with all of the cleaning.

Products, right so that you then you then become a self cleansing entity.

Products, right so that you then you then become a self cleansing entity.

Your microbiome gets to a spot that's much more natural for you, and so it puts you in a more center place in YadA, YadA, YadA. The book's called Clean. If you want to read it, you can check it out. So I'm like, great, I'm gonna do this. Well, let's what could go wrong? Idiot? So I still wash my hands, but like, no soap, no shampoo. I made it like five days, four days, and it just was like this might result in a better microbiome, but I feel disgusting, like just for like, I didn't want to go out of the house anymore. I was like avoiding people. You know, I'm causing you, like, do I stick? Am I that guy right now?

Your microbiome gets to a spot that's much more natural for you, and so it puts you in a more center place in YadA, YadA, YadA. The book's called Clean. If you want to read it, you can check it out. So I'm like, great, I'm gonna do this. Well, let's what could go wrong? Idiot? So I still wash my hands, but like, no soap, no shampoo. I made it like five days, four days, and it just was like this might result in a better microbiome, but I feel disgusting, like just for like, I didn't want to go out of the house anymore. I was like avoiding people. You know, I'm causing you, like, do I stick? Am I that guy right now?

Like?

Like?

And that was whatever benefits I might have gotten down the road was pretty much tossed out of the out of the gate because I just didn't feel physically amazing and like, so that one went in the garbage. Funnily enough, my wife, my wife didn't notice. I didn't tell her, so, you know, years later when she found out, she's like, what the hell, So it couldn't have been that bad, but I really didn't love that one of the ones that was kind of a maybe. I got big into cold plunging. Again, this was long before it was like the cool thing to do. I would start my day with forget the exact amount, but four or five minutes freezing, freezing cold, and I replaced my morning shower with it. So it was like I would cold plunge and then I would shower very quickly. At the time, I had a very young son, and I've got two kids now, but a young kid. And for anybody out there with parents, you know, I was like the CEO of an AI company I had a young kid, and as silly as it sounds, the like eight minutes in the morning when I get to take a shower is like sacred time. You know, I don't get at I don't get a lot of other meat time at that time. And so what wound up happening was, first of all, it works in my experience. The theory is you could plunge, it hits your dopamine, and depending on how you do it, that dopaminehit can carry throughout the day.

And that was whatever benefits I might have gotten down the road was pretty much tossed out of the out of the gate because I just didn't feel physically amazing and like, so that one went in the garbage. Funnily enough, my wife, my wife didn't notice. I didn't tell her, so, you know, years later when she found out, she's like, what the hell, So it couldn't have been that bad, but I really didn't love that one of the ones that was kind of a maybe. I got big into cold plunging. Again, this was long before it was like the cool thing to do. I would start my day with forget the exact amount, but four or five minutes freezing, freezing cold, and I replaced my morning shower with it. So it was like I would cold plunge and then I would shower very quickly. At the time, I had a very young son, and I've got two kids now, but a young kid. And for anybody out there with parents, you know, I was like the CEO of an AI company I had a young kid, and as silly as it sounds, the like eight minutes in the morning when I get to take a shower is like sacred time. You know, I don't get at I don't get a lot of other meat time at that time. And so what wound up happening was, first of all, it works in my experience. The theory is you could plunge, it hits your dopamine, and depending on how you do it, that dopaminehit can carry throughout the day.

But know what adrenaline as well?

But know what adrenaline as well?

Right, Yeah, So I was tracking how I was feeling, and both my data and my felt experience was like I am feeling better, Like I feel invigorated, I feel great, but I dread the hell out of every single morning. And it just hit me in a moment in my life where I was like this might be better for me, but I don't enjoy the process, back to like are you enjoying the journey? The outcome was there, but the way I was accomplishing it it was pain. It was dread. I didn't like. It was like throwing away eight minutes that I really enjoyed it. It was like a tight moment when I could you know, hop in the shower and have my own space, and instead it was just like wow, freezing, hate this, Get me out of here. So I stopped that one, even though for me it really felt like it was having the intended impact.

Right, Yeah, So I was tracking how I was feeling, and both my data and my felt experience was like I am feeling better, Like I feel invigorated, I feel great, but I dread the hell out of every single morning. And it just hit me in a moment in my life where I was like this might be better for me, but I don't enjoy the process, back to like are you enjoying the journey? The outcome was there, but the way I was accomplishing it it was pain. It was dread. I didn't like. It was like throwing away eight minutes that I really enjoyed it. It was like a tight moment when I could you know, hop in the shower and have my own space, and instead it was just like wow, freezing, hate this, Get me out of here. So I stopped that one, even though for me it really felt like it was having the intended impact.

Can I just throw in something in there? Having interviewed Professor Mike Tipton on this, who is pretty much the world leading scientist when it comes to cold exposure, and I was talking to Mike, and he reckons that almost all of the benefits come in the first twenty to thirty seconds, that it's just the cold water shock, and that it's at that natural response that we have to that cold water, that entire body brain system that is activated.

Can I just throw in something in there? Having interviewed Professor Mike Tipton on this, who is pretty much the world leading scientist when it comes to cold exposure, and I was talking to Mike, and he reckons that almost all of the benefits come in the first twenty to thirty seconds, that it's just the cold water shock, and that it's at that natural response that we have to that cold water, that entire body brain system that is activated.

And it's really interesting that the reason that it increases dopamine and nora adrenaline.

And it's really interesting that the reason that it increases dopamine and nora adrenaline.

Is if you think about it, that cold water shock would be you falling in as a hunter gatherer to really cold water flight. So it makes sense that norah adrenaline, one of the stress chemicals that enhances focus, would dramatically increase, as would dopamine, which is about gold directed behavior and division to act would spike up right. And I find and you'll still see that I thered there's people who are doing cold plunges, they're in ice bats, they're eight ten minutes, ten minutes, they're sticking on Instagram, and I'm thinking anything past thirty seconds, it's just fucking ego.

Is if you think about it, that cold water shock would be you falling in as a hunter gatherer to really cold water flight. So it makes sense that norah adrenaline, one of the stress chemicals that enhances focus, would dramatically increase, as would dopamine, which is about gold directed behavior and division to act would spike up right. And I find and you'll still see that I thered there's people who are doing cold plunges, they're in ice bats, they're eight ten minutes, ten minutes, they're sticking on Instagram, and I'm thinking anything past thirty seconds, it's just fucking ego.

That's what I've read now is eleven minutes a week is enough to make the difference, and eleven minutes a week is not.

That's what I've read now is eleven minutes a week is enough to make the difference, and eleven minutes a week is not.

You know that that's son, your Sonnsberg's stuff. And actually it's really interesting because she found out but there was no real dose response comparison. I'm actually wanted to run an experiment with Professor Grant Scofield on the Homesis lab to find out what is the minimal effect of dose? Right, Yes, eleven minute works, but does two minutes work?

You know that that's son, your Sonnsberg's stuff. And actually it's really interesting because she found out but there was no real dose response comparison. I'm actually wanted to run an experiment with Professor Grant Scofield on the Homesis lab to find out what is the minimal effect of dose? Right, Yes, eleven minute works, but does two minutes work?

Right?

Right?

And let me know if you do what temperature?

And let me know if you do what temperature?

Yeah, well that that's that's going to be the interesting thing, right, is the dose response and what is the minimal effect of dose? But anyway we we transgress.

Yeah, well that that's that's going to be the interesting thing, right, is the dose response and what is the minimal effect of dose? But anyway we we transgress.

I mean I could go on for out. There were I must have done hundreds of hundreds of these things, and to this day I continue to do like sub twenty of them. So there were a lot of ones that went the wrong way.

I mean I could go on for out. There were I must have done hundreds of hundreds of these things, and to this day I continue to do like sub twenty of them. So there were a lot of ones that went the wrong way.

What do you reckon has absolutely worked that's a bit of standard okay, cool meditation.

What do you reckon has absolutely worked that's a bit of standard okay, cool meditation.

You know, that was something I thought I would never do. You know, I kind of incorrectly look down my nose at it as for someone else who has time for that kind of thing, it's soft like, yeah, I don't have time for it. Basically, total game changer therapy was a big one for me. Huge. To be able to talk to somebody and you know, a professional who understands my the way my mind works and you know, can teach me some stuff about myself has been really great. There's lots of stuff in the book that I cover as well, but you know how I open and close my week and prioritize is completely different. You know, there's again, we could probably spend the whole podcast on experiments that failed in the ones that that did pretty well.

You know, that was something I thought I would never do. You know, I kind of incorrectly look down my nose at it as for someone else who has time for that kind of thing, it's soft like, yeah, I don't have time for it. Basically, total game changer therapy was a big one for me. Huge. To be able to talk to somebody and you know, a professional who understands my the way my mind works and you know, can teach me some stuff about myself has been really great. There's lots of stuff in the book that I cover as well, but you know how I open and close my week and prioritize is completely different. You know, there's again, we could probably spend the whole podcast on experiments that failed in the ones that that did pretty well.

So total dude, talk to me about your meditation practice because it's something that I've doubled in every nine and I'm one of those people who he's not great at meditating. I find a guided one is much easier. But where I've landed is breath work. Right, breathwork is something that works for me, which is essentially a fault, right YEA call it.

So total dude, talk to me about your meditation practice because it's something that I've doubled in every nine and I'm one of those people who he's not great at meditating. I find a guided one is much easier. But where I've landed is breath work. Right, breathwork is something that works for me, which is essentially a fault, right YEA call it.

Whatever you want. And you know, I'm not a guru by any means. I think if I was a guru, I would say something to you, like, there is no such thing as not being great at meditation. My favorite book if anyone's thinking about meditating and they're not kind of like fully into it yet ten Percent Happier by Dan Harris. I love that book.

Whatever you want. And you know, I'm not a guru by any means. I think if I was a guru, I would say something to you, like, there is no such thing as not being great at meditation. My favorite book if anyone's thinking about meditating and they're not kind of like fully into it yet ten Percent Happier by Dan Harris. I love that book.

I liked it, Dan Harris.

I liked it, Dan Harris.

I love this book like he just it's it's the journey to start meditating, told from the mind of a complete skeptic, which is amazing. And his story is unbelievable. You know, if you don't know it. He used to be a news anchor. He goes on air. He was, you know, taking a lot of cocaine at the time, and he has a breakdown on air and he has to figure out how to pick the pieces up in his life after that, and he's highly skeptical, and he goes through a whole bunch of meditation tests. For me, I keep it light weight. I don't like to breach too much, so we don't spend too much time on it. But for me, it's quite simple. Now it's ten minutes a day. It's time that I you know, just reserved to sit and similar kind of breath work stuff, just whatever's going on in my mind. I'm going to take some time to be mindful of paying attention to what's happening inside of my head rather than just you know, running around. I find the ten minutes I used to meditate much longer. It kind of abs and flows based on what's going on in life at the time. It's been as much as you know, forty five minutes to an hour a day and as little as two to three minutes a day, depending what's going on. I just try to keep the consistent practice and it's had an incredible impact on my self awareness.