On his podcast, Rich Roll seeks to give his listeners the knowledge to unleash their best selves. He invited Dr Laurie on his show to explain the science-backed "rewirements" she recommends to make us happier. The wide-ranging interview covers lots of topics - but tackles the tricky question of why the human mind often encourages us to do things that are actually bad for our happiness. 

The Happiness Lab will be back with a new series after Labor Day, but we'll be bringing you more interviews with Dr Laurie throughout the summer.  

On his podcast, <a href="https://www.richroll.com/">Rich Roll</a> seeks to give his listeners the knowledge to unleash their best selves. He invited Dr Laurie on his show to explain the science-backed "rewirements" she recommends to make us happier. The wide-ranging interview covers lots of topics - but tackles the tricky question of why the human mind often encourages us to do things that are actually bad for our happiness.&nbsp;
The Happiness Lab will be back with a new series after Labor Day, but we'll be bringing you more interviews with Dr Laurie throughout the summer.&nbsp;&nbsp;

The Happiness Lab is serving up scientifically-backed takes this summer that are so hot, even your SPF 50 won’t protect you.

With the help of behavioral scientists, historians, and cultural critics, Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos challenges some of our biggest assumptions about what it takes to live a good life. Dr. Laurie explores topics like why we should forget about TMI and lean into oversharing, how dumping small talk makes for better conversations, why the kids these days are actually doing just fine, and how men can establish strong bromances. Each episode unpacks a bold, counterintuitive claim — using research, data, and expert insight to question the conventional wisdom around happiness and wellbeing.

The Happiness Lab is serving up scientifically-backed takes this summer that are so hot, even your SPF 50 won&rsquo;t protect you.
With the help of behavioral scientists, historians, and cultural critics, Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos challenges some of our biggest assumptions about what it takes to live a good life. Dr. Laurie explores topics like why we should forget about TMI and lean into oversharing, how dumping small talk makes for better conversations, why the kids these days are actually doing just fine, and how men can establish strong bromances. Each episode unpacks a bold, counterintuitive claim &mdash;&nbsp;using research, data, and expert insight to question the conventional wisdom around happiness and wellbeing.

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

"Human Minds Are Stupid!" (with Rich Roll)

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/05d87190-f23d-4997-a179-b32b00bfcb5b/transcript

Cats have a reputation for being aloof, independent, and sometimes downright indifferent to their human companions. But what if we've been getting cats all wrong?

In honor of National Cat Day, Dr. Laurie is joined by cat behavior expert Dr. Kristyn Vitale to explore the surprising science of our relationships with cats. They unpack what cats really think about their human caregivers, how our feline friends can boost our happiness and wellbeing, and what we can do to make their lives happier, too.

Experts Mentioned:
Kristyn Vitale, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist and internationally recognized expert in cat behavior and the cat-human relationship
John Bowlby, psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and founder of attachment theory
Mary Ainsworth, developmental psychologist and creator of the Strange Situation assessment
Harry Harlow, University of Wisconsin-Madison researcher and former director of their Primate Laboratory 
Karen McComb, Emeritus Professor of Animal Behaviour and Cognition at the University of Sussex 
Wendy Berry Mendes, Professor of Psychology at Yale University
Mikel Maria Delgado, animal behavioural scientist 

Resources Mentioned:
“Social interaction, food, scent or toys? A formal assessment of domestic pet and shelter cat (Felis silvestris catus) preferences,” by Kristyn Vitale, Lindsay Mehrkam, and Monique Udell (Behavioural Processes, 2017)
“The quality of being sociable: The influence of human attentional state, population, and human familiarity on domestic cat sociability,” by Kristyn Vitale and Monique Udell (Behavioural Processes, 2019)
“Attachment bonds between domestic cats and humans,” by Kristyn Vitale, Alexandra Behnke, and Monique Udell (Current Biology, 2019)
“The Development of Affectional Responses in Infant Monkeys,” by Harry Harlow and Robert Zimmermann (Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 1958)
“Attachment, Exploration, and Separation: Illustrated by the Behavior of One-Year-Olds in a Strange Situation,” by Mary Ainsworth and Silvia Bell (Child Development, 1970)
“Maternal Care and Mental Health,” by John Bowlby (Bulletin of the World Health Organization, 1951)
“The cry embedded within the purr,” by Karen McComb, Anna Taylor, Christian Wilson, Benjamin Charlton (Current Biology, 2009) — Thank you to Professor McComb and her team for letting us include the solution purr audio in this episode!
“Cardiovascular reactivity and the presence of pets, friends, and spouses: the truth about cats and dogs,” by Karen Allen, Jim Blascovich, and Wendy Mendes (Psychosomatic Medicine, 2002)
“Social referencing and cat-human communication,” by Isabella Merola, Martina Lazzaroni, Sarah Marshall-Pescini, and Emanuela Prato-Previde (Animal Cognition, 2015)
“Cats (Felis silvestris catus) read human gaze for referential information,” by Péter Pongrácz, Julianna Szulamit Szapu, and Tamás Faragó (Intelligence, 2019)
“Domestic cats (Felis catus) discriminate their names from other words,” by Atsuko Saito, Kazutaka Shinozuka, Yuki Ito, and Toshikazu Hasegawa (Scientific Reports, 2019) 
“The role of cat eye narrowing movements in cat–human communication,” by Tasmin Humphrey, Leanne Proops, Jemma Forman, Rebecca Spooner, and Karen McComb (Scientific Reports, 2020)
Play with Your Cat!, by Mikel Maria Delgado (2024)
“Cat School” — Youtube channel
“Positive Reinforcement Training Educational Toolkit,” by Feline Veterinary Medical Association (2026) 
Maueyes — Educational resources 

Related Episodes:
“Let Slip the Dogs of More Happiness”
“How Dogs Changed my Life (with The Dogist)”
“‘Birds Are Like My Afternoon Martini’ (Birding with Lili Taylor)”

Cats have a reputation for being aloof, independent, and sometimes downright indifferent to their human companions. But what if we've been getting cats all wrong?
In honor of National Cat Day, Dr. Laurie is joined by cat behavior expert <a href="https://maueyes.com/about-kristynvitale/" data-airgap-id="11">Dr. Kristyn Vitale</a> to explore the surprising science of our relationships with cats. They unpack what cats really think about their human caregivers, how our feline friends can boost our happiness and wellbeing, and what we can do to make their lives happier, too.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://maueyes.com/about-kristynvitale/" data-airgap-id="12">Kristyn Vitale</a>, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist and internationally recognized expert in cat behavior and the cat-human relationship</li>
<li><a href="https://www.verywellmind.com/john-bowlby-biography-1907-1990-2795514" data-airgap-id="13">John Bowlby</a>, psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and founder of attachment theory</li>
<li><a href="https://www.verywellmind.com/mary-ainsworth-biography-2795501" data-airgap-id="14">Mary Ainsworth</a>, developmental psychologist and creator of the Strange Situation assessment</li>
<li><a href="https://www.verywellmind.com/harry-harlow-biography-1905-1981-2795510" data-airgap-id="15">Harry Harlow</a>, University of Wisconsin-Madison researcher and former director of their Primate Laboratory&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://www.sussex.ac.uk/profiles/1752" data-airgap-id="16">Karen McComb</a>, Emeritus Professor of Animal Behaviour and Cognition at the University of Sussex&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://psychology.yale.edu/people/wendy-berry-mendes" data-airgap-id="17">Wendy Berry Mendes</a>, Professor of Psychology at Yale University</li>
<li><a href="https://mikeldelgado.com/" data-airgap-id="18">Mikel Maria Delgado</a>, animal behavioural scientist&nbsp;</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635716303424?via%3Dihub" data-airgap-id="19">Social interaction, food, scent or toys? A formal assessment of domestic pet and shelter cat (Felis silvestris catus) preferences</a>,&rdquo; by Kristyn Vitale, Lindsay Mehrkam, and Monique Udell (Behavioural Processes, 2017)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635718300998" data-airgap-id="20">The quality of being sociable: The influence of human attentional state, population, and human familiarity on domestic cat sociability</a>,&rdquo; by Kristyn Vitale and Monique Udell (Behavioural Processes, 2019)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)31086-3?&amp;" data-airgap-id="21">Attachment bonds between domestic cats and humans</a>,&rdquo; by Kristyn Vitale, Alexandra Behnke, and Monique Udell (Current Biology, 2019)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/985597" data-airgap-id="22">The Development of Affectional Responses in Infant Monkeys</a>,&rdquo; by Harry Harlow and Robert Zimmermann (Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 1958)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/1127388" data-airgap-id="23">Attachment, Exploration, and Separation: Illustrated by the Behavior of One-Year-Olds in a Strange Situation</a>,&rdquo; by Mary Ainsworth and Silvia Bell (Child Development, 1970)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~eherman/teaching/texts/Bowlby%20Maternal%20Care%20and%20Mental%20Health.pdf" data-airgap-id="24">Maternal Care and Mental Health</a>,&rdquo; by John Bowlby (Bulletin of the World Health Organization, 1951)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26671018_The_cry_embedded_within_the_purr" data-airgap-id="25">The cry embedded within the purr</a>,&rdquo; by Karen McComb, Anna Taylor, Christian Wilson, Benjamin Charlton (Current Biology, 2009) &mdash; Thank you to Professor McComb and her team for letting us include the solution purr audio in this episode!</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12271103/" data-airgap-id="26">Cardiovascular reactivity and the presence of pets, friends, and spouses: the truth about cats and dogs</a>,&rdquo; by Karen Allen, Jim Blascovich, and Wendy Mendes (Psychosomatic Medicine, 2002)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270596973_Social_referencing_and_cat-human_communication" data-airgap-id="27">Social referencing and cat-human communication</a>,&rdquo; by Isabella Merola, Martina Lazzaroni, Sarah Marshall-Pescini, and Emanuela Prato-Previde (Animal Cognition, 2015)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289618300035" data-airgap-id="28">Cats (Felis silvestris catus) read human gaze for referential information</a>,&rdquo; by P&eacute;ter Pongr&aacute;cz, Julianna Szulamit Szapu, and Tam&aacute;s Farag&oacute; (Intelligence, 2019)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6449508/" data-airgap-id="29">Domestic cats (Felis catus) discriminate their names from other words</a>,&rdquo; by Atsuko Saito, Kazutaka Shinozuka, Yuki Ito, and Toshikazu Hasegawa (Scientific Reports, 2019)&nbsp;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-73426-0" data-airgap-id="30">The role of cat eye narrowing movements in cat&ndash;human communication</a>,&rdquo; by Tasmin Humphrey, Leanne Proops, Jemma Forman, Rebecca Spooner, and Karen McComb (Scientific Reports, 2020)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0593541332?tag=randohouseinc31339-20" data-airgap-id="31">Play with Your Cat!</a>, by Mikel Maria Delgado (2024)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/c/CatSchool" data-airgap-id="32">Cat School</a>&rdquo; &mdash; Youtube channel</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://catvets.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/Positive-Reinforcement-Training-Educational-Toolkit_Complete.pdf" data-airgap-id="33">Positive Reinforcement Training Educational Toolkit</a>,&rdquo; by Feline Veterinary Medical Association (2026)&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://maueyes.com/educational-resources/" data-airgap-id="34">Maueyes</a> &mdash; Educational resources&nbsp;</li>
</ul>
Related Episodes:
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/let-slip-the-dogs-of-more-happiness" data-airgap-id="35">Let Slip the Dogs of More Happiness</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/how-dogs-changed-my-life-with-the-dogist" data-airgap-id="36">How Dogs Changed my Life (with The Dogist)</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/birds-are-like-my-afternoon-martini-birding-with-lili-taylor" data-airgap-id="37">&lsquo;Birds Are Like My Afternoon Martini&rsquo; (Birding with Lili Taylor)</a>&rdquo;</li>
</ul>

The Unexpected Science of Cats and Happiness

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/77ed05dd-e575-40f9-8d7c-b4ee0164caa4/transcript

You might assume that people who study happiness for a living have it all figured out. But even happiness experts struggle to follow their own advice. They know the science behind feeling happier, managing difficult emotions, and building healthier habits — but putting that knowledge into practice is another story. Why is it so hard to do the things we know are good for us?

In a live conversation recorded at SXSW, Dr. Laurie gets personal with her good friend, psychologist Ethan Kross, about the times they've struggled to practice what they preach. Together, they explore the psychological biases that can get in our way and share science-backed strategies for managing difficult emotions, building better habits, and turning that knowledge into action.

Experts Mentioned:
Ethan Kross, Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan 
Tamar Gendler, Professor of Philosophy and Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Yale University 
Gabriele Oettingen, Professor of Psychology at New York University and the University of Hamburg
Carey Morewedge, Professor of Marketing at Boston University 
Christina Maslach, Professor Emerita of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley
Kristin Neff, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin

ResourcesMentioned:
Shift: Managing Your Emotions — So They Don't Manage You, by Ethan Kross (2025)
Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It, by Ethan Kross (2021)
“Knowing is Half the Battle,” by Laurie Santos and Tamar Gendler (Edge, 2014)
Müller-Lyer Illusion
“Exploring Solomon’s Paradox: Self-Distancing Eliminates the Self-Other Asymmetry in Wise Reasoning About Close Relationships in Younger and Older Adults,” by Igor Grossmann and Ethan Kross (Psychological Science, 2014)
WOOP: Wish, Outcome, Obstacle, Plan
Rethinking Positive Thinking: Inside the New Science of Motivation, by Gabriele Oettingen (2014)
“Thought for Food: Imagined Consumption Reduces Actual Consumption,” by Carey Morewedge, Young Eun Huh, and Joachim Vosgerau (Science, 2010)
“Forming a flossing habit: an exploratory study of the psychological determinants of habit formation,” by Gaby Judah, Benjamin Gardner, and Robert Aunger (British Journal of Health Psychology, 2013)
How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, by Katy Milkman (2021)
Burnout: The Cost of Caring, by Christina Maslach (1982)
Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, by Kristin Neff (2011)
“Self-Perception Theory,” by Daryl J. Bem (Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, 1972)
“Emotion Controllability Beliefs and Young People's Anxiety and Depression Symptoms: A Systematic Review,” by Matthew Somerville, Helen MacIntyre, Amy Harrison, and Iris Mauss (Adolescent Research Review, 2024)
“Implicit theories of emotion: Affective and social outcomes across a major life transition,” by Maya Tamir, Oliver John, Sanjay Srivastava, and James Gross (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2007)

Related Episodes:
“For Whom the Alarm Clock Tolls”
“Harnessing People Around us to Feel Happier (Live with Ethan Kross)”
“Coach Yourself Through a Crisis”
“Don’t Accentuate the Positive”

You might assume that people who study happiness for a living have it all figured out. But even happiness experts struggle to follow their own advice. They know the science behind feeling happier, managing difficult emotions, and building healthier habits &mdash; but putting that knowledge into practice is another story. Why is it so hard to do the things we know are good for us?
In a live conversation recorded at SXSW, Dr. Laurie gets personal with her good friend, psychologist <a href="https://www.ethankross.com/" data-airgap-id="12">Ethan Kross</a>, about the times they've struggled to practice what they preach. Together, they explore the psychological biases that can get in our way and share science-backed strategies for managing difficult emotions, building better habits, and turning that knowledge into action.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.ethankross.com/" data-airgap-id="13">Ethan Kross</a>, Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://tamar-gendler.yale.edu/" data-airgap-id="14">Tamar Gendler</a>, Professor of Philosophy and Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Yale University&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://as.nyu.edu/faculty/gabriele-oettingen.html?challenge=d06e90d7-4d8f-4b88-9d8c-10b73beb60f1" data-airgap-id="15">Gabriele Oettingen</a>, Professor of Psychology at New York University and the University of Hamburg</li>
<li><a href="https://www.bu.edu/questrom/profiles/carey-morewedge/" data-airgap-id="16">Carey Morewedge</a>, Professor of Marketing at Boston University&nbsp;</li>
<li><a href="https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/christina-maslach" data-airgap-id="17">Christina Maslach</a>, Professor Emerita of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley</li>
<li><a href="https://self-compassion.org/kristin-neff/" data-airgap-id="18">Kristin Neff</a>, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FDM3YWCJ?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="19">Shift: Managing Your Emotions &mdash; So They Don't Manage You</a>, by Ethan Kross (2025)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Chatter-Voice-Head-Matters-Harness/dp/0525575243/ref=pd_sbs_d_sccl_1_1/140-6454301-7752957?pd_rd_w=mVewq&amp;content-id=amzn1.sym.0cb10f30-7cd4-4985-9826-58b2c1174c19&amp;pf_rd_p=0cb10f30-7cd4-4985-9826-58b2c1174c19&amp;pf_rd_r=ABMKS3Y0F6YVJXNKHBQ0&amp;pd_rd_wg=RrK7T&amp;pd_rd_r=9a45f829-7310-4fd8-982d-9e756a7ace2d&amp;pd_rd_i=0525575243&amp;psc=1" data-airgap-id="20">Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It</a>, by Ethan Kross (2021)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://edge.org/response-detail/25436" data-airgap-id="21">Knowing is Half the Battle</a>,&rdquo; by Laurie Santos and Tamar Gendler (Edge, 2014)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.illusionsindex.org/i/mueller-lyer" data-airgap-id="22">M&uuml;ller-Lyer Illusion</a></li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614535400" data-airgap-id="23">Exploring Solomon&rsquo;s Paradox: Self-Distancing Eliminates the Self-Other Asymmetry in Wise Reasoning About Close Relationships in Younger and Older Adults</a>,&rdquo; by Igor Grossmann and Ethan Kross (Psychological Science, 2014)</li>
<li><a href="https://woopmylife.org/" data-airgap-id="24">WOOP: Wish, Outcome, Obstacle, Plan</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1617230235?lv=shuf&amp;hvlocphy=9004400&amp;hvptwo=&amp;hvnetw=g&amp;mcid=&amp;hvext=372760583920&amp;hvadid=812934654163&amp;language=en_US&amp;hvpone=&amp;hvlocint=&amp;hvcampaign=23946702649&amp;hydadcr=18332_13883056_2506321&amp;hvpos=&amp;hvdev=c&amp;hvdvcmdl=&amp;hvocijid=3252593176508449974--&amp;hvqmt=a&amp;hvexpln=0&amp;tag=smgglusdsadts-20&amp;hvtargid=kwl-2484167636399&amp;adgrpid=197419383573&amp;hvrand=3252593176508449974&amp;channelId=500&amp;ref_=&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="25">Rethinking Positive Thinking: Inside the New Science of Motivation</a>, by Gabriele Oettingen (2014)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1195701?adobe_mc=MCMID%3D28872292537646828261101212917072275688%7CMCORGID%3D242B6472541199F70A4C98A6%2540AdobeOrg%7CTS%3D1791912116" data-airgap-id="26">Thought for Food: Imagined Consumption Reduces Actual Consumption</a>,&rdquo; by Carey Morewedge, Young Eun Huh, and Joachim Vosgerau (Science, 2010)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22989272/" data-airgap-id="27">Forming a flossing habit: an exploratory study of the psychological determinants of habit formation</a>,&rdquo; by Gaby Judah, Benjamin Gardner, and Robert Aunger (British Journal of Health Psychology, 2013)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/059308375X?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="28">How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be</a>, by Katy Milkman (2021)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/013091231X?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="29">Burnout: The Cost of Caring</a>, by Christina Maslach (1982)</li>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061733520?lv=shuf&amp;channelId=500&amp;plpRedirect=mhFallback" data-airgap-id="30">Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself</a>, by Kristin Neff (2011)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/bookseries/abs/pii/S0065260108600246" data-airgap-id="31">Self-Perception Theory</a>,&rdquo; by Daryl J. Bem (Advances in Experimental Social Psychology, 1972)</li>
<li><a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38410118/" data-airgap-id="32">&ldquo;Emotion Controllability Beliefs and Young People's Anxiety and Depression Symptoms: A Systematic Review</a>,&rdquo; by Matthew Somerville, Helen MacIntyre, Amy Harrison, and Iris Mauss (Adolescent Research Review, 2024)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2F0022-3514.92.4.731" data-airgap-id="33">Implicit theories of emotion: Affective and social outcomes across a major life transition</a>,&rdquo; by Maya Tamir, Oliver John, Sanjay Srivastava, and James Gross (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2007)</li>
</ul>
Related Episodes:
<ul>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/for-whom-the-alarm-clock-tolls" data-airgap-id="34">For Whom the Alarm Clock Tolls</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/harnessing-people-around-us-to-feel-happier-live-with-ethan-kross" data-airgap-id="35">Harnessing People Around us to Feel Happier (Live with Ethan Kross)</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/bonus-coach-yourself-through-a-crisis" data-airgap-id="36">Coach Yourself Through a Crisis</a>&rdquo;</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/dont-accentuate-the-positive" data-airgap-id="37">Don&rsquo;t Accentuate the Positive</a>&rdquo;</li>
</ul>

Why Happiness Experts Still Struggle to Be Happy with Dr. Ethan Kross

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/8cb1910d-ce4a-41cb-a219-b4e800146a2a/transcript

For most of human history, we only had one way to talk to one another: our voices. Today, we have more ways to communicate than ever before. We can text, call, send a video message, reach out over social media, et cetera. And we often choose whichever option seems easiest or least awkward. But research suggests that how we choose to communicate matters much more than we realize and can have a surprising impact on how well we understand one another and how connected we feel.

In a live conversation recorded at the World Happiness Summit at SXSW, Dr. Laurie speaks with psychologist Nick Epley about the common mistakes we make when communicating in the modern world — and the small changes that could help us connect more meaningfully with the people around us. His new book, A Little More Social, is available now.

Experts Mentioned:
Nicholas Epley, Professor of Behavioral Science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business
Bronisław Malinowski, Polish anthropologist and ethnologist

ResourcesMentioned:
A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection, by Nick Epley (2026)
“Hello, stranger? Pleasant conversations are preceded by concerns about starting one,” by Juliana Schroeder, Donald Lyons, and Nicholas Epley (Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2022)
"The Problem of Meaning in Primitive Languages," by Bronisław Malinowski (1923)
“Is Conversation Magical?,” by Nicholas Epley (Chicago Booth Review, 2026)
“The Humanizing Voice: Speech Reveals, and Text Conceals, a More Thoughtful Mind in the Midst of Disagreement,” by Juliana Schroeder, Michael Kardas, and Nicholas Epley (Psychological Science, 2017)
"Egocentrism over e-mail: can we communicate as well as we think?," by Justin Kruger, Nicholas Epley, Jason Parker, and Zhi-Wen Ng (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2005)
“The Sound of Intellect: Speech Reveals a Thoughtful Mind, Increasing a Job Candidate's Appeal,” by Juliana Schroeder and Nicholas Epley (Psychological Science, 2015)
“It's surprisingly nice to hear you: Misunderstanding the impact of communication media can lead to suboptimal choices of how to connect with others,” by Amit Kumar and Nicholas Epley Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2021)

Related Episodes:
Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead
You’re Actually Not Bothering People Enough
Why Giving is a Great Daily Habit
The Surprising Case for Oversharing

For most of human history, we only had one way to talk to one another: our voices. Today, we have more ways to communicate than ever before. We can text, call, send a video message, reach out over social media, et cetera. And we often choose whichever option seems easiest or least awkward. But research suggests that how we choose to communicate matters much more than we realize and can have a surprising impact on how well we understand one another and how connected we feel.
In a live conversation recorded at the World Happiness Summit at SXSW, Dr. Laurie speaks with psychologist <a href="https://www.nicholasepley.com/" data-airgap-id="11">Nick Epley</a> about the common mistakes we make when communicating in the modern world &mdash; and the small changes that could help us connect more meaningfully with the people around us. His new book, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+little+more+social&amp;hvadid=694133946432&amp;hvdev=c&amp;hvexpln=67&amp;hvlocphy=9004400&amp;hvnetw=g&amp;hvocijid=4292426935823186958--&amp;hvqmt=e&amp;hvrand=4292426935823186958&amp;hvtargid=kwd-2468185663858&amp;hydadcr=22560_13531255&amp;mcid=595a8d21a90737c8be1ca523ebb39d71&amp;tag=googhydr-20&amp;ref=pd_sl_4f4qjpojxq_e_p67" data-airgap-id="12">A Little More Social</a>, is available now.
Experts Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.nicholasepley.com/" data-airgap-id="13">Nicholas Epley</a>, Professor of Behavioral Science at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business</li>
<li><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373260727_Malinowski_Bronislaw_K1884-1942" data-airgap-id="14">Bronisław Malinowski</a>, Polish anthropologist and ethnologist</li>
</ul>
Resources Mentioned:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+little+more+social&amp;hvadid=713511125889&amp;hvdev=c&amp;hvexpln=67&amp;hvlocphy=9004400&amp;hvnetw=g&amp;hvocijid=1911829651904330065--&amp;hvqmt=e&amp;hvrand=1911829651904330065&amp;hvtargid=kwd-2468185663858&amp;hydadcr=22560_13730715&amp;mcid=595a8d21a90737c8be1ca523ebb39d71&amp;tag=googhydr-20&amp;ref=pd_sl_4f4qjpojxq_e_p67" data-airgap-id="15">A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection</a>, by Nick Epley (2026)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34618536/" data-airgap-id="16">Hello, stranger? Pleasant conversations are preceded by concerns about starting one</a>,&rdquo; by Juliana Schroeder, Donald Lyons, and Nicholas Epley (Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2022)</li>
<li>"<a href="https://mnytud.arts.unideb.hu/tananyag/szoclingv_alap/malinowski-the_problem_of_meaning_in_primitive_languages.pdf" data-airgap-id="17">The Problem of Meaning in Primitive Languages</a>," by Bronisław Malinowski (1923)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/is-conversation-magical" data-airgap-id="18">Is Conversation Magical?</a>,&rdquo; by Nicholas Epley (Chicago Booth Review, 2026)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29068763/" data-airgap-id="19">The Humanizing Voice: Speech Reveals, and Text Conceals, a More Thoughtful Mind in the Midst of Disagreement</a>,&rdquo; by Juliana Schroeder, Michael Kardas, and Nicholas Epley (Psychological Science, 2017)</li>
<li>"<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16393025/" data-airgap-id="20">Egocentrism over e-mail: can we communicate as well as we think?</a>," by Justin Kruger, Nicholas Epley, Jason Parker, and Zhi-Wen Ng (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2005)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25926479/" data-airgap-id="21">The Sound of Intellect: Speech Reveals a Thoughtful Mind, Increasing a Job Candidate's Appeal,</a>&rdquo; by Juliana Schroeder and Nicholas Epley (Psychological Science, 2015)</li>
<li>&ldquo;<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32915017/" data-airgap-id="22">It's surprisingly nice to hear you: Misunderstanding the impact of communication media can lead to suboptimal choices of how to connect with others</a>,&rdquo; by Amit Kumar and Nicholas Epley Journal of Experimental Psychology: General, 2021)</li>
</ul>
Related Episodes:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/forget-small-talk-go-deep-instead" data-airgap-id="23">Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/youre-actually-not-bothering-people-enough" data-airgap-id="24">You&rsquo;re Actually Not Bothering People Enough</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/why-giving-is-a-great-daily-habit" data-airgap-id="25">Why Giving is a Great Daily Habit</a></li>
<li><a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/the-surprising-case-for-oversharing" data-airgap-id="26">The Surprising Case for Oversharing</a></li>
</ul>

What Gets Lost When We Text Instead of Talk with Dr. Nick Epley

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/fd14e389-8e82-48ae-b4fe-b4de00f1ef28/transcript

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