Gaday Legends, Tip Cook here back on Roll with the Punches podcast and today we're diving back into the archives with an ex track from one of my favorite podcasts on this show to date.

Gaday Legends, Tip Cook here back on Roll with the Punches podcast and today we're diving back into the archives with an ex track from one of my favorite podcasts on this show to date.

It was episode two hundred and thirty.

It was episode two hundred and thirty.

Can you remember when we had Peter Crone on the show. Here's the mind Architect and he's an absolute wizard, and we got real on some heavy stuff. We talked about connection, rejection, abandonment, and shame and I got what we call chroned. I got thrown into the deep end of vulnerability with Peter and it was an incredible and powerful conversation to a conversation that hit hard because it's the stuff that most of us face that we don't always talk about. So, based on the massive amount of feedback that I have received up until this very day from people that listen to this episode, get ready to feel seen, heard, and maybe hopefully a little bit lighter as we revisit one of the powerful moments in this chat. And if you loved it, head back to episode two hundred and thirty. I will have links in the show notes for you to go and check that out.

Can you remember when we had Peter Crone on the show. Here's the mind Architect and he's an absolute wizard, and we got real on some heavy stuff. We talked about connection, rejection, abandonment, and shame and I got what we call chroned. I got thrown into the deep end of vulnerability with Peter and it was an incredible and powerful conversation to a conversation that hit hard because it's the stuff that most of us face that we don't always talk about. So, based on the massive amount of feedback that I have received up until this very day from people that listen to this episode, get ready to feel seen, heard, and maybe hopefully a little bit lighter as we revisit one of the powerful moments in this chat. And if you loved it, head back to episode two hundred and thirty. I will have links in the show notes for you to go and check that out.

Enjoy.

Enjoy.

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Now I have to hear what happened in the boxing rre.

Now I have to hear what happened in the boxing rre.

You just took an upper cart and all of a sudden you saw the stars and like life.

You just took an upper cart and all of a sudden you saw the stars and like life.

What a story.

What a story.

So I was twenty nine when I stepped in there. I was twenty nine and I did a corporate boxing challenge just to show off. I'd moved from tazzy little country town in Tazzy to Melbourne to be a big girl, put my big girl pants on and I was running rampant for years doing you know, being a superstar. I jumped into this boxing ring and I did this fight and thought nothing of it, just thought I was again showing off doing stuff that girls don't do. And after a couple of years, stuff started like it peaud my interest. After a couple of years, I was like, why do I keep doing this? A there's a lot of discomfort, confrontation, there's all in a critic. I don't think I'm good. I've never done things that I didn't think I was good at. Now I won the fights, but winning the experience isn't the same as thinking you're naturally good at it. I knew I was the worst person in the gym. I knew I didn't have talent. I was winning on something else. There was this duality of a voice that told me I was the worst, like was kind of embarrassed to be there and didn't deserve to be there. But there was this other voice that I that was driving me, that knew that I would win, That was undoubt that I was going to win those fights. But I started it also started bringing up memories of childhood trauma. And then so I started.

So I was twenty nine when I stepped in there. I was twenty nine and I did a corporate boxing challenge just to show off. I'd moved from tazzy little country town in Tazzy to Melbourne to be a big girl, put my big girl pants on and I was running rampant for years doing you know, being a superstar. I jumped into this boxing ring and I did this fight and thought nothing of it, just thought I was again showing off doing stuff that girls don't do. And after a couple of years, stuff started like it peaud my interest. After a couple of years, I was like, why do I keep doing this? A there's a lot of discomfort, confrontation, there's all in a critic. I don't think I'm good. I've never done things that I didn't think I was good at. Now I won the fights, but winning the experience isn't the same as thinking you're naturally good at it. I knew I was the worst person in the gym. I knew I didn't have talent. I was winning on something else. There was this duality of a voice that told me I was the worst, like was kind of embarrassed to be there and didn't deserve to be there. But there was this other voice that I that was driving me, that knew that I would win, That was undoubt that I was going to win those fights. But I started it also started bringing up memories of childhood trauma. And then so I started.

Googling, you know what about an adult that went through this? Google? Doctor, Google, is this all right?

Googling, you know what about an adult that went through this? Google? Doctor, Google, is this all right?

And you know, I realized there was there was a lot of things resonating in the boxing ring that was coming for it as a direct result of trauma.

And you know, I realized there was there was a lot of things resonating in the boxing ring that was coming for it as a direct result of trauma.

There was a lot of oh, all.

There was a lot of oh, all.

Those traits I thought were positive, this decisiveness, this bullish attitude, this ability to be so fiercely independent, to have the answers all of this stuff. I was like, I've held on to that as really positive things. But what I realized is I think that they're just the result of running so fast from the from vulnerability, from attachment, from hurt, from all of the stuff, and then years of unraveling there.

Those traits I thought were positive, this decisiveness, this bullish attitude, this ability to be so fiercely independent, to have the answers all of this stuff. I was like, I've held on to that as really positive things. But what I realized is I think that they're just the result of running so fast from the from vulnerability, from attachment, from hurt, from all of the stuff, and then years of unraveling there.

And you're in a common and you're in a corporate boxing ring, yeah, which is a beautiful metaphor, right, Like you're confined, you're in a maring, you're in a space, and you're fighting for your life, which goes back to what.

And you're in a common and you're in a corporate boxing ring, yeah, which is a beautiful metaphor, right, Like you're confined, you're in a maring, you're in a space, and you're fighting for your life, which goes back to what.

I said about the energy of survival.

I said about the energy of survival.

So without going into the details of you're in childhood and where you got hurt, but the fact that you spoke to it, which is, you know, we run away like pain and pleasure are really the greatest delineators in human behavior, right. We run away from pain and we run towards pleasure. And so when somebody's in the fundamental form of pain, which most people are, they have the myriad of forms of escape that you know, run the gamut from alcohol to marijuana to prescription drugs to sex, to food to boxing rings, right, so whatever it is to you know, find some relief.

So without going into the details of you're in childhood and where you got hurt, but the fact that you spoke to it, which is, you know, we run away like pain and pleasure are really the greatest delineators in human behavior, right. We run away from pain and we run towards pleasure. And so when somebody's in the fundamental form of pain, which most people are, they have the myriad of forms of escape that you know, run the gamut from alcohol to marijuana to prescription drugs to sex, to food to boxing rings, right, so whatever it is to you know, find some relief.

So yeah, everybody's got their journey.

So yeah, everybody's got their journey.

And that's why I have so much sympathy and compassion for every human being on the planet is in ways that we don't fully understand, and one's carrying their cross. But I do, I do want to go back because you did address and I just as a professional listener, I want to make sure that we touch.

And that's why I have so much sympathy and compassion for every human being on the planet is in ways that we don't fully understand, and one's carrying their cross. But I do, I do want to go back because you did address and I just as a professional listener, I want to make sure that we touch.

On what you you know, you mentioned, whether we go down that line or not.

On what you you know, you mentioned, whether we go down that line or not.

But like how starting in the physical realm, a lot of people in my industry or certainly like you, you know, it is a great access to start to understand somebody, you know, for me to really comprehend what's involved physiologically, anatomically, biologically, for people, it was a great point of access and entry into understanding. Oh wait a minute, this is sort of like a meat suit. And for sure it is an extension of what's going on between the ears emotionally in psychologically.

But like how starting in the physical realm, a lot of people in my industry or certainly like you, you know, it is a great access to start to understand somebody, you know, for me to really comprehend what's involved physiologically, anatomically, biologically, for people, it was a great point of access and entry into understanding. Oh wait a minute, this is sort of like a meat suit. And for sure it is an extension of what's going on between the ears emotionally in psychologically.

But if we really want to have.

But if we really want to have.

Impacts only as it relates to health and vitality, then we got to get to those deeper programs. Because you can do all of the stuff externally, exogenous products from good food, organic supplements, vitamins, whatever.

Impacts only as it relates to health and vitality, then we got to get to those deeper programs. Because you can do all of the stuff externally, exogenous products from good food, organic supplements, vitamins, whatever.

It is you have to do.

It is you have to do.

But if you're in a state of woe and insecurity and inadequacy internally, then it's like you got one foot on the accelerator and one foot on the break at the same time in a car, and shit's going to fall apart eventually. Mmm. So ask one question that comes to mind right now about the topic of self sabotage.

But if you're in a state of woe and insecurity and inadequacy internally, then it's like you got one foot on the accelerator and one foot on the break at the same time in a car, and shit's going to fall apart eventually. Mmm. So ask one question that comes to mind right now about the topic of self sabotage.

How do we know?

How do we know?

I think, how do we define when we are self sabotaging? And how do we know that our story is correct? How do we get past our story? So I think of me before the boxing ring. I had all these answers and I believed them, but I was not very self aware, so I was driven a lot by coping mechanisms. My coping mechanism was to keep a wall up and not let people close and leave things. So I had a story based on that for my current level of my self awareness. That was comfortable and it fit and I knew it. It wasn't the case, so I needed to move through all these levels of that.

I think, how do we define when we are self sabotaging? And how do we know that our story is correct? How do we get past our story? So I think of me before the boxing ring. I had all these answers and I believed them, but I was not very self aware, so I was driven a lot by coping mechanisms. My coping mechanism was to keep a wall up and not let people close and leave things. So I had a story based on that for my current level of my self awareness. That was comfortable and it fit and I knew it. It wasn't the case, so I needed to move through all these levels of that.

So what was the story that was the roots cause for having the.

So what was the story that was the roots cause for having the.

War at the I think that at the core of everything still is abandonment or lot that I will that nothing will last forever and I will lose it. And or two things that abandonment and other is if things get close, if someone, if a relationship becomes close, if you get something close on that level, then you have to endure or give away something really precious or something you don't want to. You have to endure something, so it comes at a cost, got it?

War at the I think that at the core of everything still is abandonment or lot that I will that nothing will last forever and I will lose it. And or two things that abandonment and other is if things get close, if someone, if a relationship becomes close, if you get something close on that level, then you have to endure or give away something really precious or something you don't want to. You have to endure something, so it comes at a cost, got it?

So what if I told you that you already do it in the way that you speak.

So what if I told you that you already do it in the way that you speak.

So you're talking to me, Peter Crow, and I'm on the other side of this technical interaction, right Like I'm zoom one end at a computer and you're your own so you use you a lot. So you said you endure, you have to give something out, you lose something.

So you're talking to me, Peter Crow, and I'm on the other side of this technical interaction, right Like I'm zoom one end at a computer and you're your own so you use you a lot. So you said you endure, you have to give something out, you lose something.

But you're talking about yourself.

But you're talking about yourself.

Now I know you're using it in the term of like one like oh if one lost something like.

Now I know you're using it in the term of like one like oh if one lost something like.

As a general term.

As a general term.

But that's a very safe way to speak. So it already shows me that that's self protective in its nature. There's no responsibility there, there's no power there because you're you're speaking in the third person, or you're speaking like, it's what I do. You know, you have to give up something or you are abandoned, right, so share because you're you're onto something and I want to help you, but like put it in the first person. So number one is I feel abandonment. Well, I'm worried about a man. I put up a wall, and you're going to slip by the way, but I'll call you out, So over to you, if let's.

But that's a very safe way to speak. So it already shows me that that's self protective in its nature. There's no responsibility there, there's no power there because you're you're speaking in the third person, or you're speaking like, it's what I do. You know, you have to give up something or you are abandoned, right, so share because you're you're onto something and I want to help you, but like put it in the first person. So number one is I feel abandonment. Well, I'm worried about a man. I put up a wall, and you're going to slip by the way, but I'll call you out, So over to you, if let's.

Go cron I put walls up, and I've noticed recently, and I thought I was overcoming it, but I've noticed that I do think that things will be lost, that nothing that is precious to me will be safe.

Go cron I put walls up, and I've noticed recently, and I thought I was overcoming it, but I've noticed that I do think that things will be lost, that nothing that is precious to me will be safe.

Right.

Right.

So you said when someone gets close to you, what happens.

So you said when someone gets close to you, what happens.

When someone gets close to me?

When someone gets close to me?

There is a an ulterior motive and I will have to.

There is a an ulterior motive and I will have to.

Endure something or pain. There will be pain, or there will be something else.

Endure something or pain. There will be pain, or there will be something else.

Okay, well this is good, this is better. So there's one thing you did say that I'd say it's actually accurate. But you're you're you're categorizing it as a fear, which is nothing last forever. Right, that's the words you use, right, nothing last forever. So actually i'd say that's that's accurate. That's called that's called life.

Okay, well this is good, this is better. So there's one thing you did say that I'd say it's actually accurate. But you're you're you're categorizing it as a fear, which is nothing last forever. Right, that's the words you use, right, nothing last forever. So actually i'd say that's that's accurate. That's called that's called life.

Right, that's what again Kelsang John Ying said.

Right, that's what again Kelsang John Ying said.

Nothing last forever.

Nothing last forever.

Everything is in permanent right, so you know it's like recognize, okay, that's great, But the way you can textualize it, there's a fear there, right, like it's got some story of loss, right if nothing last forever? But for tif it's like nothing last forever, and I don't like that or that makes me feel about and right, do you see what I'm saying, Like you've got your you've you've collapsed. Nothing lasts forever with what sounds like things of value to you, especially relationships. Right, It's one thing to say nothing lasts forever, like you know that flower outside in my house. It's not gonna last forever, right, But there's there's no charge around that, like it's like yeah, I know that, you know, but for you, it's like nothing lasts forever. But the subtext of that concern as a statement is around relationships.

Everything is in permanent right, so you know it's like recognize, okay, that's great, But the way you can textualize it, there's a fear there, right, like it's got some story of loss, right if nothing last forever? But for tif it's like nothing last forever, and I don't like that or that makes me feel about and right, do you see what I'm saying, Like you've got your you've you've collapsed. Nothing lasts forever with what sounds like things of value to you, especially relationships. Right, It's one thing to say nothing lasts forever, like you know that flower outside in my house. It's not gonna last forever, right, But there's there's no charge around that, like it's like yeah, I know that, you know, but for you, it's like nothing lasts forever. But the subtext of that concern as a statement is around relationships.

Right, So if you want to meet someone and.

Right, So if you want to meet someone and.

You fall in love, you have this beautiful connection, then the fear that creates the need for the war is well, it's not gonna last forever anyway, So then what's the point of getting involved because it's not going to last forever and I'm going to get hurt. So let's make sure I don't go there. That would be part of your self sabotage.

You fall in love, you have this beautiful connection, then the fear that creates the need for the war is well, it's not gonna last forever anyway, So then what's the point of getting involved because it's not going to last forever and I'm going to get hurt. So let's make sure I don't go there. That would be part of your self sabotage.

Mechanism makes sense.

Mechanism makes sense.

Great, awesome, So we're starting to see what's going on between those ears over there.

Great, awesome, So we're starting to see what's going on between those ears over there.

It's a party.

It's a party.

Yeah, yeah, you might need some drugs for the current Grover.

Yeah, yeah, you might need some drugs for the current Grover.

Definitely a party.

Definitely a party.

So the abandonment is a very very it's an adult way of saying something that actually is reflective of a child's hurts, right, So what is abandonment but through the eyes of a child?

So the abandonment is a very very it's an adult way of saying something that actually is reflective of a child's hurts, right, So what is abandonment but through the eyes of a child?

So a child doesn't guy feel abandoned? Right?

So a child doesn't guy feel abandoned? Right?

That that becomes a psychological analysis or a way of like putting something in a box that now sounds very polite and professional, But what's actually going on? What's what's beneath the surface in a real, raw, authentic way.

That that becomes a psychological analysis or a way of like putting something in a box that now sounds very polite and professional, But what's actually going on? What's what's beneath the surface in a real, raw, authentic way.

A lack of connection and support.

A lack of connection and support.

Yeah, so if you don't have connection, so think about it just in real simple terms, if you're being abandoned, what's actually happening.

Yeah, so if you don't have connection, so think about it just in real simple terms, if you're being abandoned, what's actually happening.

You're being rejected. I'm not but like you, I'm being rejected.

You're being rejected. I'm not but like you, I'm being rejected.

It's so slippery, right, So that but now it's so great. So that shows us another level. Right, I'm being rejected, that's your interpretation, But what's actually happening? Like if I was there with you in a room in a hotel by a swimming pool, like I can't see rejection, Like I don't see rejection, what would I see?

It's so slippery, right, So that but now it's so great. So that shows us another level. Right, I'm being rejected, that's your interpretation, But what's actually happening? Like if I was there with you in a room in a hotel by a swimming pool, like I can't see rejection, Like I don't see rejection, what would I see?

I don't know, Yes, you do in my head.

I don't know, Yes, you do in my head.

Yeah, that's when the party starts, after the rejection and the abandonment. So if just imagine, even if it's not you, if I see someone, like we're talking about relationships here, right, that's obviously people view. So you're with someone and then you're not with someone, and then you're saying I'm rejected, But no, what happened if there's two people there?

Yeah, that's when the party starts, after the rejection and the abandonment. So if just imagine, even if it's not you, if I see someone, like we're talking about relationships here, right, that's obviously people view. So you're with someone and then you're not with someone, and then you're saying I'm rejected, But no, what happened if there's two people there?

And then what would I see? If you're with someone a lover, a husband, a boyfriend in a room, and then what has to happen before you experience rejection and abandonment?

And then what would I see? If you're with someone a lover, a husband, a boyfriend in a room, and then what has to happen before you experience rejection and abandonment?

Acceptance that they accept you first.

Acceptance that they accept you first.

Well, they apparently aren't accepting you because they leave, right, Okay, So what I would see is.

Well, they apparently aren't accepting you because they leave, right, Okay, So what I would see is.

You're in a room with someone. You might have a tiff, no pun intended, you might have a bit of an.

You're in a room with someone. You might have a tiff, no pun intended, you might have a bit of an.

Argument, or you're just upset, and then what I would see is somebody leaves. See it's so simple. So what happens is Tiff has fallen in love. She's got someone. And this, of course is going to go back to your childhood, so it will be something to do with parents, which is where you felt the disconnect. But now you've got a big heart. You're a sweetheart. You want to have you know, I don't know if you want to make a family or whatever, but you want.

Argument, or you're just upset, and then what I would see is somebody leaves. See it's so simple. So what happens is Tiff has fallen in love. She's got someone. And this, of course is going to go back to your childhood, so it will be something to do with parents, which is where you felt the disconnect. But now you've got a big heart. You're a sweetheart. You want to have you know, I don't know if you want to make a family or whatever, but you want.

To have companionship.

To have companionship.

So then you have someone, you meet someone, you fall in love, and then what happened. What I would see is they change their mind, they leave, they go somewhere else, They move to a different town, they go to a different apartment.

So then you have someone, you meet someone, you fall in love, and then what happened. What I would see is they change their mind, they leave, they go somewhere else, They move to a different town, they go to a different apartment.

Do you see that's the physics.

Do you see that's the physics.

Then what Tif's mind is, oh I just got rejected or I got a band. No, they just moved to a different town. Do you see. It's like this was so powerful for me, Like for years I had a story that I lost my parents and people were very sweet.

Then what Tif's mind is, oh I just got rejected or I got a band. No, they just moved to a different town. Do you see. It's like this was so powerful for me, Like for years I had a story that I lost my parents and people were very sweet.

You know, It's like it's tough. I was an only child, seven, my mom seventeen with my dad.

You know, It's like it's tough. I was an only child, seven, my mom seventeen with my dad.

That's hard, right, But every time I kept hearing that narrative, it's like, oh, I'm sorry for your loss.

That's hard, right, But every time I kept hearing that narrative, it's like, oh, I'm sorry for your loss.

I'm sorry for your loss. And before I thought, before I knew it, I thought, yeah, I had a loss, but I didn't lose my parents. My parents died. Do you see?

I'm sorry for your loss. And before I thought, before I knew it, I thought, yeah, I had a loss, but I didn't lose my parents. My parents died. Do you see?

This is why it works? Are saying, well, if I lose something, then what does it say. It says there's something about me that's now incomplete or I'm missing something. And that's not to say that I don't quote unquote miss my parents. I loved my parents, but that's also not my role in terms of the big scheme of life. Apparently based on their karma, that was the journey that they were meant to go through.

This is why it works? Are saying, well, if I lose something, then what does it say. It says there's something about me that's now incomplete or I'm missing something. And that's not to say that I don't quote unquote miss my parents. I loved my parents, but that's also not my role in terms of the big scheme of life. Apparently based on their karma, that was the journey that they were meant to go through.

But what's happening for you and your relationships? And hopefully a lot of people listening are going.

But what's happening for you and your relationships? And hopefully a lot of people listening are going.

To get something from this in their own relationships, especially if they've struggled with partners leaving them or divorce or whatever is No one's ever rejected you. They just left and they said whatever they said, They fell for someone else, they became gay. They just are going to be celibrating. I don't know what their excuse was. You know, you make terrible fucking eggs. I mean, like they could have had any story. But the point is they just decided not to.

To get something from this in their own relationships, especially if they've struggled with partners leaving them or divorce or whatever is No one's ever rejected you. They just left and they said whatever they said, They fell for someone else, they became gay. They just are going to be celibrating. I don't know what their excuse was. You know, you make terrible fucking eggs. I mean, like they could have had any story. But the point is they just decided not to.

Be with you you energetically.

Be with you you energetically.

What that did is it revealed the story of rejection, which is in you not over there with them.

What that did is it revealed the story of rejection, which is in you not over there with them.

That's the already is.

That's the already is.

So this goes back to yourself sabotage as you were rejecting you before they even got a chance.

So this goes back to yourself sabotage as you were rejecting you before they even got a chance.

This is the dichotomy. So when when I talk about it, think about it, talk about it in the context.

This is the dichotomy. So when when I talk about it, think about it, talk about it in the context.

Of other people.

Of other people.

Everything has so much clarity, and then enter the human body that has all of these you know, the nervous system and the emotions and the you know you biochemicals, and then it's harder to live in alignment with that story.

Everything has so much clarity, and then enter the human body that has all of these you know, the nervous system and the emotions and the you know you biochemicals, and then it's harder to live in alignment with that story.

Like I get the story.

Like I get the story.

I watch myself now with relationships, and I see how what behaviors happened, and I see how things in all different dynamics make me feel. But then I still can witness things happen, behaviors happen in a certain way, or are I look at you. Must be so difficult to get to know why are you doing that? When you want to do that? Or be that person?

I watch myself now with relationships, and I see how what behaviors happened, and I see how things in all different dynamics make me feel. But then I still can witness things happen, behaviors happen in a certain way, or are I look at you. Must be so difficult to get to know why are you doing that? When you want to do that? Or be that person?

Great? Perfect? So that's beautiful. So what kind of person would do that? What must they feel about themselves.

Great? Perfect? So that's beautiful. So what kind of person would do that? What must they feel about themselves.

It's difficult to get to know somebody what must be going on inside of them. Shame, shamefush. Yeah, yeah, that's beautif Like, I could feel that as you said that word, right, Like, I could really.

It's difficult to get to know somebody what must be going on inside of them. Shame, shamefush. Yeah, yeah, that's beautif Like, I could feel that as you said that word, right, Like, I could really.

Feel that that's part of your experience. That's tough.

Feel that that's part of your experience. That's tough.

So you must have over the years heard things that led to the experience of shame. You know, you did this wrong. You're an idiot, You're not pretty enough, you're not thin enough for what. I don't know what it is that you heard as a little girl, but you did stuff wrong. And fundamentally, what I hear more than anything was the fact that you weren't fundamentally loved for who you were, not even accepted by the guests. If I were to guess, you know, this is a continuum right love is like fully embraced for.

So you must have over the years heard things that led to the experience of shame. You know, you did this wrong. You're an idiot, You're not pretty enough, you're not thin enough for what. I don't know what it is that you heard as a little girl, but you did stuff wrong. And fundamentally, what I hear more than anything was the fact that you weren't fundamentally loved for who you were, not even accepted by the guests. If I were to guess, you know, this is a continuum right love is like fully embraced for.

Who you are.

Who you are.

And if this is tough, I appreciate you. You know, I can see I can see stuff behind the eyes there.

And if this is tough, I appreciate you. You know, I can see I can see stuff behind the eyes there.

It's okay, great, but that's tough for a little girl, right What have you heard from mum or dad?

It's okay, great, but that's tough for a little girl, right What have you heard from mum or dad?

And then beyond that, you know, friends, bullies, boyfriends, like, but there was this continual I'm guessing story narrative that you developed that somehow who you are is in your terminology rejected.

And then beyond that, you know, friends, bullies, boyfriends, like, but there was this continual I'm guessing story narrative that you developed that somehow who you are is in your terminology rejected.

I hope you guys enjoyed that extract.

I hope you guys enjoyed that extract.

If you want to hear the rest of the conversation, like I said, the link will be in the show notes. It's episode two hundred and thirty with Peter Cron. Head over and have a listen. And in the meantime, I will be bringing you some more amazing guests in our future episodes.

If you want to hear the rest of the conversation, like I said, the link will be in the show notes. It's episode two hundred and thirty with Peter Cron. Head over and have a listen. And in the meantime, I will be bringing you some more amazing guests in our future episodes.

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