Oh my goodness, team, welcome back to the show. This is Roll with the Punches podcast and that's exactly what we're doing today with my guest. I'm your host, TIF Cook, of course, and my guest is Mick Hall, and he is quite a weapon. Got a few things in common, not everything, though. Mick has a tumultuous background in addiction and prison and learning some pretty tough lessons out there. But now he has spent his life helping others recover from addiction and understand the disease, and we have a fascinating chat about that. He's also a master's boxing champion, and of course, with my boxing background, will have been offensive not to address talking a little bit about that, So fair to say. I love this conversation. I think you guys will too, and I think I might drag him back on the show soon, so let me know if you do love it. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't My friends at test Art Family Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody, and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au mikol welcome to Roll with the punches.

Oh my goodness, team, welcome back to the show. This is Roll with the Punches podcast and that's exactly what we're doing today with my guest. I'm your host, TIF Cook, of course, and my guest is Mick Hall, and he is quite a weapon. Got a few things in common, not everything, though. Mick has a tumultuous background in addiction and prison and learning some pretty tough lessons out there. But now he has spent his life helping others recover from addiction and understand the disease, and we have a fascinating chat about that. He's also a master's boxing champion, and of course, with my boxing background, will have been offensive not to address talking a little bit about that, So fair to say. I love this conversation. I think you guys will too, and I think I might drag him back on the show soon, so let me know if you do love it. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't My friends at test Art Family Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody, and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au mikol welcome to Roll with the punches.

WHOA Hello.

WHOA Hello.

I'll tell you what, If any there is anyone who knows how to do that in the ring and out of the ring, I think it might be you.

I'll tell you what, If any there is anyone who knows how to do that in the ring and out of the ring, I think it might be you.

I think you could be on the money there. If definitely, I'll roll with a few punches along the way, that's for sure.

I think you could be on the money there. If definitely, I'll roll with a few punches along the way, that's for sure.

Blood the hell, I feel this conversation is four years in the making. I feel like I Harps had said to me four years ago when I first started this show, which simultaneously feels like I blinked twice and here we are in twenty twenty four. Yeah, I don't know how that happened, but so I'm excited that you finally hear in front of me.

Blood the hell, I feel this conversation is four years in the making. I feel like I Harps had said to me four years ago when I first started this show, which simultaneously feels like I blinked twice and here we are in twenty twenty four. Yeah, I don't know how that happened, but so I'm excited that you finally hear in front of me.

Yeah. Well I'm excited to be here too, Tiff and I as an honor to be asked to come on to the show, and yeah, I'll look forward to it. You know. It's I always like talking to people you know about my journey because there's so much learning in it for me, you know, and apparently other people get something out of it as well, which is even better.

Yeah. Well I'm excited to be here too, Tiff and I as an honor to be asked to come on to the show, and yeah, I'll look forward to it. You know. It's I always like talking to people you know about my journey because there's so much learning in it for me, you know, and apparently other people get something out of it as well, which is even better.

Absolutely, Where do you how since the first When did you first ever share your story or parts of it?

Absolutely, Where do you how since the first When did you first ever share your story or parts of it?

That's a good question. Do you mean share publicly?

That's a good question. Do you mean share publicly?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Yeah, I think that would be around probably around fifteen years ago. Yeah, I first, Yeah, I first. I first shared my story on radio. Actually, I got asked to do an interview on sem yeah with Mark Fine and I think Craig Harps was on that show too, and they asked me to come in and to share my story because I was advertising ac and through my business, which was a rehab center back then.

Yeah, I think that would be around probably around fifteen years ago. Yeah, I first, Yeah, I first. I first shared my story on radio. Actually, I got asked to do an interview on sem yeah with Mark Fine and I think Craig Harps was on that show too, and they asked me to come in and to share my story because I was advertising ac and through my business, which was a rehab center back then.

Yep.

Yep.

And I've got asked to come and just share my story on air and it lit up the switchboard.

And I've got asked to come and just share my story on air and it lit up the switchboard.

Wow, okay, walk me through. So and well, everyone settle down. We will get to the story. You'll hear all about it, maybe parts of it, maybe not all of it. I don't know how much will we even get through. I might have to have a Nicole series, I reckon. Can you remember the feeling of that moment of going into the state and knowing that you're about to do that for the first time, and then the moment between the reaction and response. Can you remember how that felt?

Wow, okay, walk me through. So and well, everyone settle down. We will get to the story. You'll hear all about it, maybe parts of it, maybe not all of it. I don't know how much will we even get through. I might have to have a Nicole series, I reckon. Can you remember the feeling of that moment of going into the state and knowing that you're about to do that for the first time, and then the moment between the reaction and response. Can you remember how that felt?

Yeah, I remember it vividly, you know. I mean I was absolutely shitting bricks. I got to tell you, I was sitting there kind of shaking it. I was really nervous. That's a big thing to reveal, you know, when you share your story, you're sharing who you are and sharing what you've been through. Is about sort of revealing yourself and opening yourself up. And doing that on commercial commercial radio is certainly a huge thing. But the reason that I was doing it is too, I guess, get my story out to the wider public so that somebody might get some hope from it. So somebody that's struggling and in a dark place may hear it and get something from it and find some hope within themselves to try and get well. So that was the reason behind me doing it. And I went in there and I remember about twenty seconds before we're about to go and have little red lights on in the studio, and then it comes off and finally starts, you know, kind of introducing me, you know, to the to the to the public and gets me to start speaking, and I thought my heart was going to jump out of my chest, you know, and I was stuttering my words a little bit, and of course I was very very nervous, but it was a relieving feeling, you know, just sort of getting my story out and putting it out there publicly. And then this was a talkback radio show, so then the switchboard started to light up with people ringing in and emailing in and sms ing in and as I was talking, you know, and it was kind of it was an unbelievable feeling. It was just electric, you know, and I was kind of I was addicted to.

Yeah, I remember it vividly, you know. I mean I was absolutely shitting bricks. I got to tell you, I was sitting there kind of shaking it. I was really nervous. That's a big thing to reveal, you know, when you share your story, you're sharing who you are and sharing what you've been through. Is about sort of revealing yourself and opening yourself up. And doing that on commercial commercial radio is certainly a huge thing. But the reason that I was doing it is too, I guess, get my story out to the wider public so that somebody might get some hope from it. So somebody that's struggling and in a dark place may hear it and get something from it and find some hope within themselves to try and get well. So that was the reason behind me doing it. And I went in there and I remember about twenty seconds before we're about to go and have little red lights on in the studio, and then it comes off and finally starts, you know, kind of introducing me, you know, to the to the to the public and gets me to start speaking, and I thought my heart was going to jump out of my chest, you know, and I was stuttering my words a little bit, and of course I was very very nervous, but it was a relieving feeling, you know, just sort of getting my story out and putting it out there publicly. And then this was a talkback radio show, so then the switchboard started to light up with people ringing in and emailing in and sms ing in and as I was talking, you know, and it was kind of it was an unbelievable feeling. It was just electric, you know, and I was kind of I was addicted to.

Not like you, no, it's not like that at all.

Not like you, no, it's not like that at all.

I was addicted. We get to that. I was addicted to radio, to media, to telling my story to I don't know, just going down that path, you know, from that moment. And I love the feeling of people relating to me and that the fact that they were getting some sort of hope or inspiration, you know, and it actually developed that kind of sparked a I already had the passion for that, but it just really ignited it, you know, and put me on a platform where I thought, maybe I'm able to get my message out to more and more people. And it's funny how things work out, because there's quite a story that entailed after that which led to myself and finding having a radio show together on se N for about four or five years. It was a show called It was a show called The Right Time and it was on a Monday night, every Monday night for five years, and myself and Fini and also Gavin Chrisiska who used to play for Collywood, we hosted the show. And the show was the only show on commercial radio dedicated to breaking the stigma of addiction and it was talk back. I was on there as the addiction expert, Gavin was on there as the high profile sportsperson who had been through addiction and gotten into recovery, and of course Fini was the anchor. And the show just it just it boomed. It's just touched so many people, and it did so well, you know, at sen and it was just such an amazing experience being able to do talkback radio every week about my thing, which is addiction and addiction recovery or one of my things anyway, and it was just such a pleasure to do so. Yeah, interesting, very interesting.

I was addicted. We get to that. I was addicted to radio, to media, to telling my story to I don't know, just going down that path, you know, from that moment. And I love the feeling of people relating to me and that the fact that they were getting some sort of hope or inspiration, you know, and it actually developed that kind of sparked a I already had the passion for that, but it just really ignited it, you know, and put me on a platform where I thought, maybe I'm able to get my message out to more and more people. And it's funny how things work out, because there's quite a story that entailed after that which led to myself and finding having a radio show together on se N for about four or five years. It was a show called It was a show called The Right Time and it was on a Monday night, every Monday night for five years, and myself and Fini and also Gavin Chrisiska who used to play for Collywood, we hosted the show. And the show was the only show on commercial radio dedicated to breaking the stigma of addiction and it was talk back. I was on there as the addiction expert, Gavin was on there as the high profile sportsperson who had been through addiction and gotten into recovery, and of course Fini was the anchor. And the show just it just it boomed. It's just touched so many people, and it did so well, you know, at sen and it was just such an amazing experience being able to do talkback radio every week about my thing, which is addiction and addiction recovery or one of my things anyway, and it was just such a pleasure to do so. Yeah, interesting, very interesting.

Tell us about your journey with addiction.

Tell us about your journey with addiction.

Yeah, my journey with addiction is it's long, it's dirty, and it's severe. You know, I was a chronic addict, a person that picked up my first drink at thirteen years old, and I was in trouble with it straight away, and it led me down a path of absolute destruction and demise from the age of thirteen. You know, it had me hookline and think. I loved the way I felt when I drank. When I had my first drink, you know, I didn't even realize that I didn't feel okay until I drank and I felt so good. I realized that my whole life i'd felt shit, and in that one moment of having that first drink, I just felt a normal us relief and just felt like I have arrived on planet Earth, you know. And that's kind of what I chased for a long long time, and it caused me enormous problems. You know, I was very out of control, you know, just an erratic person, you know, and I could unable to hold control my emotions and my feelings, and I was racked with anxieties and fears and all that sort of stuff. And you know, I couldn't last to school, left school at fourteen. I've got a special exemption from the government to leave school when I was fourteen.

Yeah, my journey with addiction is it's long, it's dirty, and it's severe. You know, I was a chronic addict, a person that picked up my first drink at thirteen years old, and I was in trouble with it straight away, and it led me down a path of absolute destruction and demise from the age of thirteen. You know, it had me hookline and think. I loved the way I felt when I drank. When I had my first drink, you know, I didn't even realize that I didn't feel okay until I drank and I felt so good. I realized that my whole life i'd felt shit, and in that one moment of having that first drink, I just felt a normal us relief and just felt like I have arrived on planet Earth, you know. And that's kind of what I chased for a long long time, and it caused me enormous problems. You know, I was very out of control, you know, just an erratic person, you know, and I could unable to hold control my emotions and my feelings, and I was racked with anxieties and fears and all that sort of stuff. And you know, I couldn't last to school, left school at fourteen. I've got a special exemption from the government to leave school when I was fourteen.

How do you get a special exemption from the government. Just write a letter, write a sick note.

How do you get a special exemption from the government. Just write a letter, write a sick note.

You've got to be particularly bad. And I fit the bill. I fit the bill. Yes, I've got this special exemption they said, you can get you can leave school provided you get a job. Fuck it all right. So I went and got a job. And I worked at some crusty old sheet metal factory somewhere. And I remember they used to I used to used to get paid cash in little yellow envelopes back then. And I remember getting my first little yellow envelope and I could still smell the glue on the top of the foldy bit at the top of the envelope. And I had this had twenty nine dollars in it for the week, and I could still smell the powder on the on the on the notes. And put my twenty nine bucks out, and I thought, I've absolutely fucking made it. I've got on my BMX. I rode to the fucking to the Nanning Hill Hotel. I went saw the owner. I knew the owner, and I went saw the owner. Said I want to buy a slab of Melbourne bitter cans and a packet of Windfield Red, and I stuck the packet of Windfield Red in my in my on my shoulder, you know, inside my T shirt, put the slab on my shoulder and rode me BMX home and I thought to myself, I am the fucking king of the world. I'm just I've got I've made it.

You've got to be particularly bad. And I fit the bill. I fit the bill. Yes, I've got this special exemption they said, you can get you can leave school provided you get a job. Fuck it all right. So I went and got a job. And I worked at some crusty old sheet metal factory somewhere. And I remember they used to I used to used to get paid cash in little yellow envelopes back then. And I remember getting my first little yellow envelope and I could still smell the glue on the top of the foldy bit at the top of the envelope. And I had this had twenty nine dollars in it for the week, and I could still smell the powder on the on the on the notes. And put my twenty nine bucks out, and I thought, I've absolutely fucking made it. I've got on my BMX. I rode to the fucking to the Nanning Hill Hotel. I went saw the owner. I knew the owner, and I went saw the owner. Said I want to buy a slab of Melbourne bitter cans and a packet of Windfield Red, and I stuck the packet of Windfield Red in my in my on my shoulder, you know, inside my T shirt, put the slab on my shoulder and rode me BMX home and I thought to myself, I am the fucking king of the world. I'm just I've got I've made it.

Were you fourteen when you bought.

Were you fourteen when you bought.

That fourteen.

That fourteen.

Times?

Times?

And yeah, yeah times have changed? And yeah, I mean lasted two weeks of that job. I couldn't turn up, was too hung over. But look, this is the story of my life, you know. Like by the time I was sixteen and seven aen, I was drinking in pubs and I had people saying to me, Michael, don't drink. When you drink, you're an asshole and a preh But when you don't drink, you're a good bloke. And I thought bullshit. I thought, I'm the same bloke pissed as what I am, saber, I said the one I'm pissed them at much louder and a bit more easy going, And nothing could have been further from the truth. I was absolutely out of control, and my life just continued to spiral daughter that was born when I was seventeen. I ended up getting with a young lady who was about five years older than me, and she felt pregnant, and I remember driving my then pregnant partner to hospital in labor on my l plates and watched my daughter being born and cut her cord and was filled with love and I loved her very very much, but that alcoholism and an addiction had taken over, and by the time my daughter was one, my then partner left me. She took my daughter, wouldn't let me see her, and you know, I basically didn't see her for the next ten or eleven years. And to say I spiraled downwards from there is just an understatement. Everything from losses of license to self harm to suicide attempt homelessness is part of my story. Spent ten years homeless, in and out of homeless men, shoulders, psychiatric admissions, psych hospitals, self harmonies, to slice up my arms with razor blades. At one stage I got pretty serious about suicide and I jumped off the Blackburn Road bridge that goes over the Monash Freeway. Jumped off that in the middle of the night and woke up three days later in hospital with screws holding the bottom of my league together. And you know, I was in a bad way. You know, prison system became part of my story. I ended up doing time in most of the prisons in Victoria, ended up doing time up in Queensland as well. And yeah, I went to lots of rehabs and detoxes. So I did over thirty rehabs and detoxes by tilmost twenty five couldn't get couldn't stay clean, and cyber couldn't get clean, and sober couldn't stay clean, and saber I had what's jury, ended up with happetitis. See. I ended up getting in a fight at the pub and had all my front teeth punched out and snapped off at the gum line, sheep bone shattered, eye socket cracked. I had bloody guns pulled on me at the path. I had knives pulled on me. Yeah, the list goes on. And to top it all off, just nicely. For the last five or so years of my addiction, I picked up heroin. And if I thought things were bad before that point, they were kindergarten compared to where they took me next. And yeah, I did all of the stuff that's right at the bottom of the barrel, you know, that stuff that you think, I will never ever do this shit. I would pick a lot. I did it for a period of five years. I had many overdoses. I should be dead, it's absolutely you know, I'm a stounded and I'm a light now like I should be dead. And my last prison sentence was up in Queensland. And yeah, I just thought that my life was only ever going to be prison, get out if I'm lucky, and here on addiction, live on the streets, and go back to prison again. That's all I thought it would become. And thankfully that's not the case. That's not what happened. Through a set of circumstances which I won't go into all the ins and outs of right now, but maybe for another episode we might. But I ended up getting clean and sober. And what a journey it's been. What an absolute journey it's been. I'm just just shy of twenty four years clean and sober and I've completely and naterly turned my life around and I'm completely reinvented myself and it has just been an absolute well win twenty four years. It's been absolute sure, you know, and being in recovery is so good that even when it's shit, it's good.

And yeah, yeah times have changed? And yeah, I mean lasted two weeks of that job. I couldn't turn up, was too hung over. But look, this is the story of my life, you know. Like by the time I was sixteen and seven aen, I was drinking in pubs and I had people saying to me, Michael, don't drink. When you drink, you're an asshole and a preh But when you don't drink, you're a good bloke. And I thought bullshit. I thought, I'm the same bloke pissed as what I am, saber, I said the one I'm pissed them at much louder and a bit more easy going, And nothing could have been further from the truth. I was absolutely out of control, and my life just continued to spiral daughter that was born when I was seventeen. I ended up getting with a young lady who was about five years older than me, and she felt pregnant, and I remember driving my then pregnant partner to hospital in labor on my l plates and watched my daughter being born and cut her cord and was filled with love and I loved her very very much, but that alcoholism and an addiction had taken over, and by the time my daughter was one, my then partner left me. She took my daughter, wouldn't let me see her, and you know, I basically didn't see her for the next ten or eleven years. And to say I spiraled downwards from there is just an understatement. Everything from losses of license to self harm to suicide attempt homelessness is part of my story. Spent ten years homeless, in and out of homeless men, shoulders, psychiatric admissions, psych hospitals, self harmonies, to slice up my arms with razor blades. At one stage I got pretty serious about suicide and I jumped off the Blackburn Road bridge that goes over the Monash Freeway. Jumped off that in the middle of the night and woke up three days later in hospital with screws holding the bottom of my league together. And you know, I was in a bad way. You know, prison system became part of my story. I ended up doing time in most of the prisons in Victoria, ended up doing time up in Queensland as well. And yeah, I went to lots of rehabs and detoxes. So I did over thirty rehabs and detoxes by tilmost twenty five couldn't get couldn't stay clean, and cyber couldn't get clean, and sober couldn't stay clean, and saber I had what's jury, ended up with happetitis. See. I ended up getting in a fight at the pub and had all my front teeth punched out and snapped off at the gum line, sheep bone shattered, eye socket cracked. I had bloody guns pulled on me at the path. I had knives pulled on me. Yeah, the list goes on. And to top it all off, just nicely. For the last five or so years of my addiction, I picked up heroin. And if I thought things were bad before that point, they were kindergarten compared to where they took me next. And yeah, I did all of the stuff that's right at the bottom of the barrel, you know, that stuff that you think, I will never ever do this shit. I would pick a lot. I did it for a period of five years. I had many overdoses. I should be dead, it's absolutely you know, I'm a stounded and I'm a light now like I should be dead. And my last prison sentence was up in Queensland. And yeah, I just thought that my life was only ever going to be prison, get out if I'm lucky, and here on addiction, live on the streets, and go back to prison again. That's all I thought it would become. And thankfully that's not the case. That's not what happened. Through a set of circumstances which I won't go into all the ins and outs of right now, but maybe for another episode we might. But I ended up getting clean and sober. And what a journey it's been. What an absolute journey it's been. I'm just just shy of twenty four years clean and sober and I've completely and naterly turned my life around and I'm completely reinvented myself and it has just been an absolute well win twenty four years. It's been absolute sure, you know, and being in recovery is so good that even when it's shit, it's good.

Can you recall what when you went from the addict that hadn't yet dabbled in the holy grail of addiction being heroin for you at the time, to then moving into that space. Can you recall how you felt and the decision and any awareness of what door you might be opening? And then can you recall how your identity shifted? Could you see that you were changing or had changed? What's the experience in the middle of that life?

Can you recall what when you went from the addict that hadn't yet dabbled in the holy grail of addiction being heroin for you at the time, to then moving into that space. Can you recall how you felt and the decision and any awareness of what door you might be opening? And then can you recall how your identity shifted? Could you see that you were changing or had changed? What's the experience in the middle of that life?

Yeah, so I think you're talking about moving from you know, I was in there an alcoholic basically, and then I shifted into heroin addiction. And what was my awareness around that? What was my decision making around that point? And you know, I clearly remember it, you know, like I was in such a bad way. I remember I was in prison in Melbourne and I was doing my sentence and I used to look at the heroin addicts in the prison and after visits, that will be milling around someone's self because someone smuggled in heroin, you know, that will be there all desperate. And I used to stand there with my mate Bopper and we'd look over and say, have a look at the scumbags, and they're so weak, you know, and I used to kind of hang shit on them. And then oh, I got released. And that's a very euphoric feeling when you get release all to me now. And I got released, and within about two hours I realized that it was an anti climax because I had nowhere to go. I was homeless, I had nothing, no possessions. I had a doll check, I just had nothing. It was very and of course I hadn't seed my daughter for a long time, and it was just a very dejecting, hopeless, terrible ways to be, you know. And I've been released, and i'd actually made my way back to the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and I came across some guy who was using I met him on the streets, actually using heroin, and he told me he had a place that I could stay. And I hadn't used heroin yet, but I stayed at his factory. It was a car dee harming factory. And I stayed in this absolutely moldy, greasy, dirty caravan that was inside this factory. And I'd stay there and he told me that I could stay there if I worked with him during the day and held in detail cars do that and he would buy me alcohol. So I just did that for a little while. But every day I would see him go into the office and then come out after using heroin. He'd be a completely different person. And one day I just said to him, I want to try some heroin and he said to me, mate, don't touch it, because it'll be the battle for the rest of your life. And I remember thinking internally, I hope it kills me. I hope it kills me. And I remember telling him, no, I want this, and I asked him to take me into his office and to basically hit me up, and he did, and I just wanted to die, you know, But it didn't kill me, but my god, it transformed me into this heroin addict. That Yeah, it was just horrible. It was worse than dying, to be honest. The next five ideas, you know, my life was just revolved around how can I get enough money to get more heroin so that I don't go into withdrawals.

Yeah, so I think you're talking about moving from you know, I was in there an alcoholic basically, and then I shifted into heroin addiction. And what was my awareness around that? What was my decision making around that point? And you know, I clearly remember it, you know, like I was in such a bad way. I remember I was in prison in Melbourne and I was doing my sentence and I used to look at the heroin addicts in the prison and after visits, that will be milling around someone's self because someone smuggled in heroin, you know, that will be there all desperate. And I used to stand there with my mate Bopper and we'd look over and say, have a look at the scumbags, and they're so weak, you know, and I used to kind of hang shit on them. And then oh, I got released. And that's a very euphoric feeling when you get release all to me now. And I got released, and within about two hours I realized that it was an anti climax because I had nowhere to go. I was homeless, I had nothing, no possessions. I had a doll check, I just had nothing. It was very and of course I hadn't seed my daughter for a long time, and it was just a very dejecting, hopeless, terrible ways to be, you know. And I've been released, and i'd actually made my way back to the eastern suburbs of Melbourne, and I came across some guy who was using I met him on the streets, actually using heroin, and he told me he had a place that I could stay. And I hadn't used heroin yet, but I stayed at his factory. It was a car dee harming factory. And I stayed in this absolutely moldy, greasy, dirty caravan that was inside this factory. And I'd stay there and he told me that I could stay there if I worked with him during the day and held in detail cars do that and he would buy me alcohol. So I just did that for a little while. But every day I would see him go into the office and then come out after using heroin. He'd be a completely different person. And one day I just said to him, I want to try some heroin and he said to me, mate, don't touch it, because it'll be the battle for the rest of your life. And I remember thinking internally, I hope it kills me. I hope it kills me. And I remember telling him, no, I want this, and I asked him to take me into his office and to basically hit me up, and he did, and I just wanted to die, you know, But it didn't kill me, but my god, it transformed me into this heroin addict. That Yeah, it was just horrible. It was worse than dying, to be honest. The next five ideas, you know, my life was just revolved around how can I get enough money to get more heroin so that I don't go into withdrawals.

I remember years ago, Yeah, it's crazy. I remember years ago reading a book that was given to me by a friend Williard and Sin Kilda and it was called In My Skin, and it's a book written by a girl called Kate Holden and she and it's a book about a girl who gets she's got from a great home. She's an academic and she ends up eventually using heroin with her boyfriend, becoming an addict, working on the streets, becoming a sex worker, working in brothels, working on the streets, and it's this horrific kind of but the way it's written is quite incredible. And I remember reading it and then learning that she was a girl from sin Kilda, and in fact the beauty so Long that my friend worked at on Carlisle Street, she was a client from there, so that actually that actually treated her. So it was this kind of incredible realization. But what I remember distinguish I can recall right now visually driving after reading that book and driving down Carlisle Street, because you know, you read a book and you visualize the settings in your mind. So as she described one day walking down to an intersection, my version was she was on Carlisle Street at this intersection. She talks about the first old man that she was carrying his groceries home, and that she ends up going inside and doing a first in Invertiicoma's job, and it was a very like he was probably in his eighties. It was a very old bloke. She describes this in a way that she transforms your judgment. And I remember then driving down the road and looking at addicts, seeing an addict on the street or somebody homeless, and this whole new person perception of instead of you know, the judgment that or fear that I would normally just by default have towards seeing such people. I just remember having this empathy and going, I wonder what your story is. I wonder where you're family, Like she she had this great family. They tried to help her, she kept relapsing. They had to kick her out, like this gut wrenching story. And she's clean now and she wrote a second book. But or like just visualizing that someone like you, you know, like you just never know, No, you don't.

I remember years ago, Yeah, it's crazy. I remember years ago reading a book that was given to me by a friend Williard and Sin Kilda and it was called In My Skin, and it's a book written by a girl called Kate Holden and she and it's a book about a girl who gets she's got from a great home. She's an academic and she ends up eventually using heroin with her boyfriend, becoming an addict, working on the streets, becoming a sex worker, working in brothels, working on the streets, and it's this horrific kind of but the way it's written is quite incredible. And I remember reading it and then learning that she was a girl from sin Kilda, and in fact the beauty so Long that my friend worked at on Carlisle Street, she was a client from there, so that actually that actually treated her. So it was this kind of incredible realization. But what I remember distinguish I can recall right now visually driving after reading that book and driving down Carlisle Street, because you know, you read a book and you visualize the settings in your mind. So as she described one day walking down to an intersection, my version was she was on Carlisle Street at this intersection. She talks about the first old man that she was carrying his groceries home, and that she ends up going inside and doing a first in Invertiicoma's job, and it was a very like he was probably in his eighties. It was a very old bloke. She describes this in a way that she transforms your judgment. And I remember then driving down the road and looking at addicts, seeing an addict on the street or somebody homeless, and this whole new person perception of instead of you know, the judgment that or fear that I would normally just by default have towards seeing such people. I just remember having this empathy and going, I wonder what your story is. I wonder where you're family, Like she she had this great family. They tried to help her, she kept relapsing. They had to kick her out, like this gut wrenching story. And she's clean now and she wrote a second book. But or like just visualizing that someone like you, you know, like you just never know, No, you don't.

You don't. And addiction it doesn't discriminate like it's it affects so many people that something that you would never suspect, you know, you just never would suspect. It's it's insidious, you know. And people don't people don't start out where they finish up, you know, like a part and gardens drunk doesn't start their inisies. There. There's a whole story that's led to that point. And yeah, it's not to say that every person that's in addiction or every person that's homeless is a completely innocent soul. That's not to say that either, Like I mean, it takes all sorts of people. But you know, addiction is an illness, you know, it is. It actually is an illness, and it's known by the World Health Organization as a disease of its own entity, which means it's not the symptom of something else. It's not amnatic because I've got fast trauma. It's not a anatic because I've got depression. It's not a anatic because I've got anxiety disorder. Addiction is its own thing, and yes, those other disorders do exist, but we have to treat the addiction first.

You don't. And addiction it doesn't discriminate like it's it affects so many people that something that you would never suspect, you know, you just never would suspect. It's it's insidious, you know. And people don't people don't start out where they finish up, you know, like a part and gardens drunk doesn't start their inisies. There. There's a whole story that's led to that point. And yeah, it's not to say that every person that's in addiction or every person that's homeless is a completely innocent soul. That's not to say that either, Like I mean, it takes all sorts of people. But you know, addiction is an illness, you know, it is. It actually is an illness, and it's known by the World Health Organization as a disease of its own entity, which means it's not the symptom of something else. It's not amnatic because I've got fast trauma. It's not a anatic because I've got depression. It's not a anatic because I've got anxiety disorder. Addiction is its own thing, and yes, those other disorders do exist, but we have to treat the addiction first.

How what was where? And how did you come at your tipping point of becoming?

How what was where? And how did you come at your tipping point of becoming?

It was a long it was a long trail to get there, you know they say that, you know, in order for a person that's called in an addiction to get Clennon's over and to really get into recovery. They've got a surrender. We call it surrender to win, which means give up the fight and the victory begins. And that sounds funny coming from a boxer.

It was a long it was a long trail to get there, you know they say that, you know, in order for a person that's called in an addiction to get Clennon's over and to really get into recovery. They've got a surrender. We call it surrender to win, which means give up the fight and the victory begins. And that sounds funny coming from a boxer.

You know what, before you even go on, I have been banging on about this, I wanted I was talking about running retreats this year, and I come up with the title that if I've ever run them, I wanted it to be called fight to surrender, because surrendering letting go. You know that that trip I just went on to India was all about letting go, and I did know so that though the friction point between fighting and surrendering is I'm banging on about it heaps. Ay, So I love that.

You know what, before you even go on, I have been banging on about this, I wanted I was talking about running retreats this year, and I come up with the title that if I've ever run them, I wanted it to be called fight to surrender, because surrendering letting go. You know that that trip I just went on to India was all about letting go, and I did know so that though the friction point between fighting and surrendering is I'm banging on about it heaps. Ay, So I love that.

Yeah, yeah, and that's that surrendered to wind type scenario. Messed with me for a long time because it was a long time that I would go to twelve Step meetings and stuff like that, and I'd try and get Clement sover. I'd be hot off a prison sentence, I hide off the streets and I'd walk into a meeting and I'd hear someone say You've got to surrender to win, and I'd sit in the meeting and I'd get the warm fluffy feeling around me, and I go, oh, I don't know what to do. I surrender because I intellectually understand what that means. I've got a surrender, yep, I surrender. And then I'd walk out of the meeting, and that night or the next day, I'd have a needle of heroin back in my arm, or I'd been drinking again. I'd think, well, this is bullshit. How does this work? And how do you win something? If you surrender, it doesn't mug out that sense, you know, like it doesn't make sense. And then you know it's a unique concept or it's a funny concept in my mind that I had to get around, a twist in thinking that allowed me to get to that point. And I say that the long journey in recovery is the one from your head to your heart. You know, you can intellectually understand things, but the penny's got to drop, mate. It's got to be a connection. It's got to be a heart connection. And if that heart connection isn't there, then all the knowledge in the world is fucking useless, absolutely useless. And what brings about that connection, Well, unfortunately, with addiction, what brings about is pure unadulterated pain and degradation, either mentally, emotionally, physically, or all of the above. That's normally what it takes to get to that point where a person goes, Okay, this thing has beaten me. What do I do? What's the answer? You know, because a lot of us in addiction want to keep finding a way to keep having that little escape but without any of the consequences. But unfortunately, with addiction that's not possible anymore. So, rather than getting in the fight, we've got to walk away from the fight. It's not about beating addiction. We've already been beaten. It's about walking away from it. It's about leaving it behind, walking in a different direction, opening ourselves up to a brand new way of thinking, a brand new way of processing living, loving, a brand new life, not the old one patched up with a few band aids and a bit of sticky taping cardboard, but a brand new life. And what happens is a result of that is that, you know, someone such as myself that genuinely gets recovery, is that we get to live two sides of the coin. You know, I've lived two lives. I'm so fortunate I'm so grateful. I've lived the life of absolute addiction and destruction and negative negativity and depravity, and I've also lived the life complete and utter freedom of the spirit, of the mind, of the body, and it's just beautiful. I've lived you two sides of the railway track, and that's a unique experience. That's something to bring to the table to help people. And that's something that does help people, because it's one thing to be helped by someone that's never walked in your shoes, but it's another thing to be helped by somebody that's walked in your shoes but has also walked in the shoes of genuine success, no matter what that means. And I don't mean financial success or they can mean that, but I mean emotional, psychological life, love, relationship with self, all of that sort of success, you know, And that's that's the stuff that I don't know that that means something in my eyes anyway.

Yeah, yeah, and that's that surrendered to wind type scenario. Messed with me for a long time because it was a long time that I would go to twelve Step meetings and stuff like that, and I'd try and get Clement sover. I'd be hot off a prison sentence, I hide off the streets and I'd walk into a meeting and I'd hear someone say You've got to surrender to win, and I'd sit in the meeting and I'd get the warm fluffy feeling around me, and I go, oh, I don't know what to do. I surrender because I intellectually understand what that means. I've got a surrender, yep, I surrender. And then I'd walk out of the meeting, and that night or the next day, I'd have a needle of heroin back in my arm, or I'd been drinking again. I'd think, well, this is bullshit. How does this work? And how do you win something? If you surrender, it doesn't mug out that sense, you know, like it doesn't make sense. And then you know it's a unique concept or it's a funny concept in my mind that I had to get around, a twist in thinking that allowed me to get to that point. And I say that the long journey in recovery is the one from your head to your heart. You know, you can intellectually understand things, but the penny's got to drop, mate. It's got to be a connection. It's got to be a heart connection. And if that heart connection isn't there, then all the knowledge in the world is fucking useless, absolutely useless. And what brings about that connection, Well, unfortunately, with addiction, what brings about is pure unadulterated pain and degradation, either mentally, emotionally, physically, or all of the above. That's normally what it takes to get to that point where a person goes, Okay, this thing has beaten me. What do I do? What's the answer? You know, because a lot of us in addiction want to keep finding a way to keep having that little escape but without any of the consequences. But unfortunately, with addiction that's not possible anymore. So, rather than getting in the fight, we've got to walk away from the fight. It's not about beating addiction. We've already been beaten. It's about walking away from it. It's about leaving it behind, walking in a different direction, opening ourselves up to a brand new way of thinking, a brand new way of processing living, loving, a brand new life, not the old one patched up with a few band aids and a bit of sticky taping cardboard, but a brand new life. And what happens is a result of that is that, you know, someone such as myself that genuinely gets recovery, is that we get to live two sides of the coin. You know, I've lived two lives. I'm so fortunate I'm so grateful. I've lived the life of absolute addiction and destruction and negative negativity and depravity, and I've also lived the life complete and utter freedom of the spirit, of the mind, of the body, and it's just beautiful. I've lived you two sides of the railway track, and that's a unique experience. That's something to bring to the table to help people. And that's something that does help people, because it's one thing to be helped by someone that's never walked in your shoes, but it's another thing to be helped by somebody that's walked in your shoes but has also walked in the shoes of genuine success, no matter what that means. And I don't mean financial success or they can mean that, but I mean emotional, psychological life, love, relationship with self, all of that sort of success, you know, And that's that's the stuff that I don't know that that means something in my eyes anyway.

Oh God, I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours on this topic, and it's so top of mind because I think I'm thinking about that experience of I have these conversations all the time. I live in a world where understanding human behavior, understanding the mind, understanding our circumstances, how to navigate acceptance and change and challenge and fighting and surrendering and all the things to create a better life. And then how do we how do we foster that for people who aren't us? How do I? You know, like I go and I sit on a fucking mountain and after grappling with the idea of letting go and surrendering for so long, you know, like you said, intellectually, I get it. I've got you know, We've got to change what to do? This here is all this strategies in the world, and I sit in a fucking mountain and I'm like, in this moment, I go, something just changed, and now I'm not the same person. Did I do that? I was ready? Did I do that? What caused that? Which part of what I did caused it? Was at my mind? Was it my psychology? Was it the moment? Is it spiritual? It? Was it strategy? Or did none of what I do even matter? Did it just happen anyway?

Oh God, I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours on this topic, and it's so top of mind because I think I'm thinking about that experience of I have these conversations all the time. I live in a world where understanding human behavior, understanding the mind, understanding our circumstances, how to navigate acceptance and change and challenge and fighting and surrendering and all the things to create a better life. And then how do we how do we foster that for people who aren't us? How do I? You know, like I go and I sit on a fucking mountain and after grappling with the idea of letting go and surrendering for so long, you know, like you said, intellectually, I get it. I've got you know, We've got to change what to do? This here is all this strategies in the world, and I sit in a fucking mountain and I'm like, in this moment, I go, something just changed, and now I'm not the same person. Did I do that? I was ready? Did I do that? What caused that? Which part of what I did caused it? Was at my mind? Was it my psychology? Was it the moment? Is it spiritual? It? Was it strategy? Or did none of what I do even matter? Did it just happen anyway?

Like yeah, I'll all be above.

Like yeah, I'll all be above.

Yeah what are because you not only have you lived it, You've worked with a lot of addicts and like that's your that's your space. So our addicts typically are we running? Are we I'm not an adict? Well, I probably am a bit of a workaholic, but of a chocoholic. I'm addicted too many things. Have been a boxer aholic for a while. Levels Are we running away from things? Are addicts running from something that they need to face? Is that a yeah?

Yeah what are because you not only have you lived it, You've worked with a lot of addicts and like that's your that's your space. So our addicts typically are we running? Are we I'm not an adict? Well, I probably am a bit of a workaholic, but of a chocoholic. I'm addicted too many things. Have been a boxer aholic for a while. Levels Are we running away from things? Are addicts running from something that they need to face? Is that a yeah?

Yeah, we're running away from reality. And you can break it down. Every addict on the face of the planet, no matter who they are, no matter what their addiction is, whether it's pawn, whether it's gambling, whether it's ice, whether it's alcohol, whether it's chore, whether it's pills, whether it's relationships and love or you know, no matter what it is, every addict on the face of the planet trying to change the way they feel. We're trying to change the way they feel. Why because we can't face the suspicion of who we think we are, who we think we are. We're running away from ourselves, not wanting to be left with the reality of who we are, and our minds imagine it to be far worse than what it is and far different from what it actually is. But we're running away from ourselves, and addiction is essentially about hitting the escape button. So I can tell you that as a person that's almost twenty four years clean and sober and living recovery and living I live what I call a recovery program, of a recovery way of life. You know, it's an automatic response within me, or an automatic instinct within me to want to escape. And the most important thing that I can do, out of every emotional and psychological difficulty that happens in my life, the most important thing I can do is not escape. I must stay and face. So the antidote to addiction is basically taking responsibility and facing up, you know, And that's really it's hard to do because it's not not just facing up to others and to external stuff. It's facing up to ourselves about who we really are and what's the actual truth. For a lot of us, we're then lying to ourselves for a long long time, but not even know we're lying, you know, pretending that things aren't a particular way, or that we think a different way, or that we you know, yeah, we pretend, you know, but don't even know that we're pretending until we have a really good, close internal look and we realize, ship, I'm fooling myself here, you know. One of the things this kind of a little bit, a little bit off the wall here, But when I'm when I'm helping people with addiction, and when I'm helping myself with addiction, one of the things that we look out for to as a stumbling block to a person actually recovering. And I don't mean just getting off drugs or alcohol, right, So drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, sex, porn, blah blah blah blah blah, that's all symptom of addiction. Addiction comes in people. So the person is the problem. The substance is a symptom of the problem. We put the substance down, we get the person off drugs and alcohol or gambling or whatever it might be, but then we're left with the problem. The problems in the person is and the way we think, the way we process, the way we deal with emotions, and our internal need to continually want to escape, not have to feel reality, face reality. And we need to find a way to be able to face reality. But not only that, we need to be able to understand how are we deviating from it? And one of the first ways that we do. That is we start to would you believe, we start to look at resentments and resentments I guess hurts or perceived injustices from the past, and they're the thing that a lot of us are running from and away from and must face. And resentments are like drinking a bottle of poison. I'm waiting for you to die from it. It's never going to happen. You're not even going to know I'm drinking it. I'm gonna killing myself, right, But resentments are what are what allow me to stay in a state of dishonesty and blame everyone else for who I am and what I'm doing. M And the second that I take responsibility and going you know what, it doesn't matter what you've done. I need to have a look at what am I doing? How am I holding onto that resentment? Have I played a part in that resentment? Because once I can start to understand what that is, I can make changes within me and I can be free. And it's amazing. There is a natural process to do this in recovery, and it's very effective, and it creates a freedom. And once we have that freedom to have that self honesty and to be able to understand how we tick emotionally and how we try and blame other people for our predicament or blame other situations to excuse certain behaviors or lines of thinking or whatever that might be. Once we have a process of understanding that and working through that, it's an enormous freedom. That opens up the scope to live a brand new life. And it's amazing, you know. It's kind of like it opens up the bandwidth, you know, and I can start to achieve things in life, be that through boxing, sport, be that through business, be that through relationships, be that through any area of my life. I'm able to start to tap into those areas and make headway because I'm not caught up with this dishonesty, this self dishonesty, this internal desire to continually escape the truth.

Yeah, we're running away from reality. And you can break it down. Every addict on the face of the planet, no matter who they are, no matter what their addiction is, whether it's pawn, whether it's gambling, whether it's ice, whether it's alcohol, whether it's chore, whether it's pills, whether it's relationships and love or you know, no matter what it is, every addict on the face of the planet trying to change the way they feel. We're trying to change the way they feel. Why because we can't face the suspicion of who we think we are, who we think we are. We're running away from ourselves, not wanting to be left with the reality of who we are, and our minds imagine it to be far worse than what it is and far different from what it actually is. But we're running away from ourselves, and addiction is essentially about hitting the escape button. So I can tell you that as a person that's almost twenty four years clean and sober and living recovery and living I live what I call a recovery program, of a recovery way of life. You know, it's an automatic response within me, or an automatic instinct within me to want to escape. And the most important thing that I can do, out of every emotional and psychological difficulty that happens in my life, the most important thing I can do is not escape. I must stay and face. So the antidote to addiction is basically taking responsibility and facing up, you know, And that's really it's hard to do because it's not not just facing up to others and to external stuff. It's facing up to ourselves about who we really are and what's the actual truth. For a lot of us, we're then lying to ourselves for a long long time, but not even know we're lying, you know, pretending that things aren't a particular way, or that we think a different way, or that we you know, yeah, we pretend, you know, but don't even know that we're pretending until we have a really good, close internal look and we realize, ship, I'm fooling myself here, you know. One of the things this kind of a little bit, a little bit off the wall here, But when I'm when I'm helping people with addiction, and when I'm helping myself with addiction, one of the things that we look out for to as a stumbling block to a person actually recovering. And I don't mean just getting off drugs or alcohol, right, So drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, sex, porn, blah blah blah blah blah, that's all symptom of addiction. Addiction comes in people. So the person is the problem. The substance is a symptom of the problem. We put the substance down, we get the person off drugs and alcohol or gambling or whatever it might be, but then we're left with the problem. The problems in the person is and the way we think, the way we process, the way we deal with emotions, and our internal need to continually want to escape, not have to feel reality, face reality. And we need to find a way to be able to face reality. But not only that, we need to be able to understand how are we deviating from it? And one of the first ways that we do. That is we start to would you believe, we start to look at resentments and resentments I guess hurts or perceived injustices from the past, and they're the thing that a lot of us are running from and away from and must face. And resentments are like drinking a bottle of poison. I'm waiting for you to die from it. It's never going to happen. You're not even going to know I'm drinking it. I'm gonna killing myself, right, But resentments are what are what allow me to stay in a state of dishonesty and blame everyone else for who I am and what I'm doing. M And the second that I take responsibility and going you know what, it doesn't matter what you've done. I need to have a look at what am I doing? How am I holding onto that resentment? Have I played a part in that resentment? Because once I can start to understand what that is, I can make changes within me and I can be free. And it's amazing. There is a natural process to do this in recovery, and it's very effective, and it creates a freedom. And once we have that freedom to have that self honesty and to be able to understand how we tick emotionally and how we try and blame other people for our predicament or blame other situations to excuse certain behaviors or lines of thinking or whatever that might be. Once we have a process of understanding that and working through that, it's an enormous freedom. That opens up the scope to live a brand new life. And it's amazing, you know. It's kind of like it opens up the bandwidth, you know, and I can start to achieve things in life, be that through boxing, sport, be that through business, be that through relationships, be that through any area of my life. I'm able to start to tap into those areas and make headway because I'm not caught up with this dishonesty, this self dishonesty, this internal desire to continually escape the truth.

When you think about now the version of Mick who Hall who was running away, can you describe the person that he believed he was running away from.

When you think about now the version of Mick who Hall who was running away, can you describe the person that he believed he was running away from.

Yeah, I thought that I was defective, pathetic, week a coward, and a disgrace. And I can tell you that I none of those things, none of them. But when you're running from them and you're in addiction or you're you know, it's they're they're real. And some of my actions work cowardly, disgraceful, unloving, all of those things. That's not who I am. You know, even in my depths of depravity. You know, sometimes I'd be walking the streets when I was homeless, and I had this inn and knowing deep within me, and I knew that I was meant for more than this. I knew that I was meant to be somebody in my life, but I couldn't access it because I was in addiction. And it's yeah, it's a really it's a really confusing sort of yeah. And yeah, it was just it was just a horrible state to be just awful.

Yeah, I thought that I was defective, pathetic, week a coward, and a disgrace. And I can tell you that I none of those things, none of them. But when you're running from them and you're in addiction or you're you know, it's they're they're real. And some of my actions work cowardly, disgraceful, unloving, all of those things. That's not who I am. You know, even in my depths of depravity. You know, sometimes I'd be walking the streets when I was homeless, and I had this inn and knowing deep within me, and I knew that I was meant for more than this. I knew that I was meant to be somebody in my life, but I couldn't access it because I was in addiction. And it's yeah, it's a really it's a really confusing sort of yeah. And yeah, it was just it was just a horrible state to be just awful.

When did you start boxing?

When did you start boxing?

I didn't start boxing until I was about forty four, about nine years ago, and asked, and I've always been interested in boxing. I've always had Yeah, I've always yeah, I've always been interested in boxing. But look, I've got I've got two other kids that were born in my in my early recovery. So I've got a son who's twenty four he's never seen me drink or years. And I've got a daughter who's nineteen that's never seen me drink or you back when my son was in primary school. He got bashed badly and he got picked on and bullied, and a kid took a knife to school and buried it in the playground, and it was like it was just doing. The school did absolutely nothing. They were just disgraceful, disgraceful in their health. And anyway, I was able to sort of be aware of what was going on because I was in recovery and I was able to. I thought I could step in and help save my son's spirit before it's absolutely snuffed out, before it's completely crushed. So we moved. I got him out of the school and moved to another school and turned out to be an absolutely brilliant school, which was fantastic. But I said to him, let's start boxing, let's start fighting. And he was a sort of kid that, you know, like he couldn't look up, he would always look at the ground. He was just because he had some other things going on in his life that weren't good as well, and he was just very damaged young man. And we started boxing. We just got a personal trainer. We start doing a bit of boxing, and I started doing it with him, and we loved it. And anyway, we come across. We come across a trainer, a French guy is mad as far. We came across a French guy. We called him bb So BBS from France. He was a very high level boxer and yeah, he he was a very high level trainer and he decided to take myself and my son on one on one, seven days a week for about I think it was for about four years, five years, and we did what I would describe as sas training for boxing beyond belief, Like what we went through is just incredible talk. And you know, five o'clock in the morning, dead of winter at don Caster Athletics Track in that long jump sand pit, sparring me, sparring young twenty year olds who are trying to punch my head in at like five o'clock in the morning, doing twenty minute rounds too. You know, the most unbelievable stuff that you can imagine we were doing. Yeah, and then then my son started fighting and when he debuted his first amateur fight, I fought on the same night on the same card as my son at the Chelsea Heights Hotel and there was about it was probably eight of nine hundred people in the crowd. It was an unbelievable experience. And my son was very very good. He's a very good fighter. He had a couple of fights, but he lost interest in it. He just said, looks, you know, he still trains and he's still very good, but he's so interested in getting involved in the boxing scene. But I loved it and I kept going, and so I started fighting, and I really started fighting, like really competing probably probably three years ago, and since then, I've had had fifteen fights and I won a WBL Asia Pacific super middleweight title, I wont a WBL Master's World title, and I won an MBV Victorian State title. So it's been an interesting, an interesting journey with the boxing, that's for sure.

I didn't start boxing until I was about forty four, about nine years ago, and asked, and I've always been interested in boxing. I've always had Yeah, I've always yeah, I've always been interested in boxing. But look, I've got I've got two other kids that were born in my in my early recovery. So I've got a son who's twenty four he's never seen me drink or years. And I've got a daughter who's nineteen that's never seen me drink or you back when my son was in primary school. He got bashed badly and he got picked on and bullied, and a kid took a knife to school and buried it in the playground, and it was like it was just doing. The school did absolutely nothing. They were just disgraceful, disgraceful in their health. And anyway, I was able to sort of be aware of what was going on because I was in recovery and I was able to. I thought I could step in and help save my son's spirit before it's absolutely snuffed out, before it's completely crushed. So we moved. I got him out of the school and moved to another school and turned out to be an absolutely brilliant school, which was fantastic. But I said to him, let's start boxing, let's start fighting. And he was a sort of kid that, you know, like he couldn't look up, he would always look at the ground. He was just because he had some other things going on in his life that weren't good as well, and he was just very damaged young man. And we started boxing. We just got a personal trainer. We start doing a bit of boxing, and I started doing it with him, and we loved it. And anyway, we come across. We come across a trainer, a French guy is mad as far. We came across a French guy. We called him bb So BBS from France. He was a very high level boxer and yeah, he he was a very high level trainer and he decided to take myself and my son on one on one, seven days a week for about I think it was for about four years, five years, and we did what I would describe as sas training for boxing beyond belief, Like what we went through is just incredible talk. And you know, five o'clock in the morning, dead of winter at don Caster Athletics Track in that long jump sand pit, sparring me, sparring young twenty year olds who are trying to punch my head in at like five o'clock in the morning, doing twenty minute rounds too. You know, the most unbelievable stuff that you can imagine we were doing. Yeah, and then then my son started fighting and when he debuted his first amateur fight, I fought on the same night on the same card as my son at the Chelsea Heights Hotel and there was about it was probably eight of nine hundred people in the crowd. It was an unbelievable experience. And my son was very very good. He's a very good fighter. He had a couple of fights, but he lost interest in it. He just said, looks, you know, he still trains and he's still very good, but he's so interested in getting involved in the boxing scene. But I loved it and I kept going, and so I started fighting, and I really started fighting, like really competing probably probably three years ago, and since then, I've had had fifteen fights and I won a WBL Asia Pacific super middleweight title, I wont a WBL Master's World title, and I won an MBV Victorian State title. So it's been an interesting, an interesting journey with the boxing, that's for sure.

I love it. I had my first bout at twenty nine, and I did it by way of jumping headfirst into a twelve week boxing challenge. I didn't barely know how to swing a bloody pun at that point, so me and my big mouth was like, yeah, I'm doing this, and sold all these tickets and next minute I'm in it. But I described this period of time. I did four challenge like four white collar boxing fights before I jumped in and did amateur boxing and I look at those first two years in the sport of this real unfolding of self realization, and I'd look back and describe the experience like seeing myself for the first time. It's like, now, when I tell the story, it's weird because I've conjured up this picture where I'm standing in the ring and I'm looking down and there's a mask on the ground, and I realized I've been wearing it my whole life, and everything I knew about myself was facad that even I had believed, and all of the traits that I had that I'd held on to, which were really positive traits of strength and independence and tenacity and all of the things that whole personality I question over time and eventually got to the answer that they like, Yeah, sure, I'm all these things, But I'm all those things because I'm running from the things I'm scared of. I'm running from vulnerability, I'm running from connection, I'm running from being seen. They actually come from a not so positive place. Yeah, what who did you see when you met yourself? Like, did you meet a version of yourself in the experience of stepping into the ring into that arena?

I love it. I had my first bout at twenty nine, and I did it by way of jumping headfirst into a twelve week boxing challenge. I didn't barely know how to swing a bloody pun at that point, so me and my big mouth was like, yeah, I'm doing this, and sold all these tickets and next minute I'm in it. But I described this period of time. I did four challenge like four white collar boxing fights before I jumped in and did amateur boxing and I look at those first two years in the sport of this real unfolding of self realization, and I'd look back and describe the experience like seeing myself for the first time. It's like, now, when I tell the story, it's weird because I've conjured up this picture where I'm standing in the ring and I'm looking down and there's a mask on the ground, and I realized I've been wearing it my whole life, and everything I knew about myself was facad that even I had believed, and all of the traits that I had that I'd held on to, which were really positive traits of strength and independence and tenacity and all of the things that whole personality I question over time and eventually got to the answer that they like, Yeah, sure, I'm all these things, But I'm all those things because I'm running from the things I'm scared of. I'm running from vulnerability, I'm running from connection, I'm running from being seen. They actually come from a not so positive place. Yeah, what who did you see when you met yourself? Like, did you meet a version of yourself in the experience of stepping into the ring into that arena?

Yeah? Well, for me, it was huge and it was all about that and it still is. So although you know, I've done amazing things in my life since I've got ben sober, since I've been claim and sober, you know, everything from being a father and being someone's sister. I've just been a rock for my kids, been there for them, to starting business and running successful business and then some different stuff I done in media and stuff like that. Like it's just been an incredible ride. And yes, you know it's been courageous and it's been all those things. But you know what, there's still all these you know, when you get down to the truth, to the honesty of my personal honesty, there were still all of these questions in me that were still there, like am I a coward? Am I m hm? Am I a fighter? Am I somebody that really prepared to stand up and be accountable? And yeah, push through when things are really hard? I thought I was, but then I didn't know. And then getting into the ring, you know, I was scared. I was really scared. And like my trainer says, he says, Amen, the guy on the other side of the ring is sober, can fight and has been training specifically to incapacitate you for a minimum of three months. I got, oh, yeah, you're right, so yeah, a little bit of fear that goes there, and especially in the first fight, and I wanted to discover. I wanted to put to rest in his self doubt that I had about me. And I wanted to see I want to see myself not crumble and just emotionally fall under pressure, under extreme pressure. And I wanted to be and I've always known that what I suspected that I can be this, but I wasn't sure. But I want to be one of those ones that, no matter how much you say I can't, I can, you know, and I think i've I've told you the story of my first fight that I lost, you know, was a guy named Christopher Hume, and I got stopped in the third round and I lost the fight, and of course I had all of those demons running around me. And nobody knows what it's like once you've lost the fight and kind of been years and years and years have built up to even get there to have that fight, and then you lose it. Of course, what's the first person question that every person asks you? How do you go? And you've got two answers either I won or I lost. As soon as you say I lost, they're like, you know, and there's also all that doubt and all of that stuff. Just blood's back in, you know. It's it's so difficult to deal with. And when I lost that fight, they interviewed me in the ring at the end of the fight, and I said to the interviewer and I said to the crowd, I said, I lost this fight, but made no mistake. I'll be back and I'm going to win a title. And you know, I lost my next I think six or seven fights in a row, all right, I lost every one of them. Now, okay, I think three of them or four of them I should have won, but I didn't. It doesn't matter. The judges viewed it that I didn't win, so I didn't win them, and anybody would have been demoralized. I even had some guy that was in recovery. I remember telling him when I'd lost about my fifth fight, and he said to me, and he sort of said, haven't you learnt yet? Is it to say haven't you learned that you shouldn't be doing this? I just thought, fuck you, fuck you, no way, man like. And I was terrified every time I got in the ring, I was dealing with them. A had to try and control these demons. And then, you know, however long it was down the track, ten or eleven fights down the track, I won the state title and I'm in the ring. It was electric. And the guy that beat me in that first fight was the guy that presented me the belt.

Yeah? Well, for me, it was huge and it was all about that and it still is. So although you know, I've done amazing things in my life since I've got ben sober, since I've been claim and sober, you know, everything from being a father and being someone's sister. I've just been a rock for my kids, been there for them, to starting business and running successful business and then some different stuff I done in media and stuff like that. Like it's just been an incredible ride. And yes, you know it's been courageous and it's been all those things. But you know what, there's still all these you know, when you get down to the truth, to the honesty of my personal honesty, there were still all of these questions in me that were still there, like am I a coward? Am I m hm? Am I a fighter? Am I somebody that really prepared to stand up and be accountable? And yeah, push through when things are really hard? I thought I was, but then I didn't know. And then getting into the ring, you know, I was scared. I was really scared. And like my trainer says, he says, Amen, the guy on the other side of the ring is sober, can fight and has been training specifically to incapacitate you for a minimum of three months. I got, oh, yeah, you're right, so yeah, a little bit of fear that goes there, and especially in the first fight, and I wanted to discover. I wanted to put to rest in his self doubt that I had about me. And I wanted to see I want to see myself not crumble and just emotionally fall under pressure, under extreme pressure. And I wanted to be and I've always known that what I suspected that I can be this, but I wasn't sure. But I want to be one of those ones that, no matter how much you say I can't, I can, you know, and I think i've I've told you the story of my first fight that I lost, you know, was a guy named Christopher Hume, and I got stopped in the third round and I lost the fight, and of course I had all of those demons running around me. And nobody knows what it's like once you've lost the fight and kind of been years and years and years have built up to even get there to have that fight, and then you lose it. Of course, what's the first person question that every person asks you? How do you go? And you've got two answers either I won or I lost. As soon as you say I lost, they're like, you know, and there's also all that doubt and all of that stuff. Just blood's back in, you know. It's it's so difficult to deal with. And when I lost that fight, they interviewed me in the ring at the end of the fight, and I said to the interviewer and I said to the crowd, I said, I lost this fight, but made no mistake. I'll be back and I'm going to win a title. And you know, I lost my next I think six or seven fights in a row, all right, I lost every one of them. Now, okay, I think three of them or four of them I should have won, but I didn't. It doesn't matter. The judges viewed it that I didn't win, so I didn't win them, and anybody would have been demoralized. I even had some guy that was in recovery. I remember telling him when I'd lost about my fifth fight, and he said to me, and he sort of said, haven't you learnt yet? Is it to say haven't you learned that you shouldn't be doing this? I just thought, fuck you, fuck you, no way, man like. And I was terrified every time I got in the ring, I was dealing with them. A had to try and control these demons. And then, you know, however long it was down the track, ten or eleven fights down the track, I won the state title and I'm in the ring. It was electric. And the guy that beat me in that first fight was the guy that presented me the belt.

Yeah, brilliant.

Yeah, brilliant.

Yeah, and he wrapped around I think, and you know what, it was just like man like I just I imagine, I don't know, because I've never done that. I imagine it's kind of like I don't know, maybe an AFL player winning the Grand final. Yeah, you know That's what it was like to me. And then you know what was in that moment, I was actually able to go, you know what, Like in my recovery, I'm glad, I'm so I'm so apprecid, so grateful for who I am and for what I've discovered in my recovery. And now this is stuff that I would have I wish I could have done when I was young. You know, when I was could have maybe thought professionally or whatever. I can't do that now. I'm too old. But I can fight like this now and I've got this opportunity, and I feel so grateful that kind of in this brand new life, I still get to live my dreams. I get to live my dreams. I get to prove to myself, no one else but to myself who I am. You know. I get to make the decisions in my life that are good for me. I get to follow through, you know, like even though externally, anybody looking externally would say give up, and I didn't. I didn't give up. And you know what that says to me about me, says I'm not a coward. It says that I'm worth something, says that what I feel inside and what my instincts to tell me are correct no matter what the outside evidence says, doesn't matter money, it's correct. And since then, like I said, I want to Asia Pacific super Middleweight title, and I won a master's well toop, I'm not finished yet. I'm fighting in four weeks and I'll be fighting next year. And that's just the way it is. And what I did, what I discovered, Isn't it funny? I had to. I had to go on this boxing journey to discover I'm a fighter, I'm an athlete. That's who I am. I didn't know that before then. Yeah, I wanted to be. I suspected I could be maybe, but now I know I am. You know, It's taken me fifteen fights to be able to sit here and say I'm an athlete and I'm a fighter and that's who I am. Taking me that long. Some people maybe that's the born without, but I wasn't. You know. One of the things that really got me is that before I had my first fight, I had a big argument with my then trainer and I won't go in too much into it, but he decided to hurt me very badly and was so good for me, even though it hurt me a lot. And he called me a coward and he said, Nick, you might be covered in tattoos and whatever he said, but you should just get a big cross across your heart because he's got no heart, all right, and he just gave it. It was awful what he did, right, like demoralize me, you know. And it hurt me very very badly. And he's since taken off. He's over in Dubai or somewhere now that with a fire. Yeah, And and it made me ask those questions of myself, you know, it made me question me, and I'm all right with it. Now, I'm good with it.