Hey, shadow fam, this is Katherine McNamara. We love being your host for Return to the Shadows, relieving old memories and going back to the good old days of shadow Hunters. So we're excited to share a very special announcement. We are teaming up with Moment for an exciting live episode of the podcast. It will have all of your favorite things, BTS, stories, place lore, and of course domin Me. Nothing mundane, we promise. And the best part is there will be a live chat for some Q and A, some games and more by the Angel We can't wait. Tickets are on sale now at moment dot com. Slash Return to the Shadows See you March twenty second. Patty Baby, doing are you doing? This? Is? This is terrifying to see the three of us here. I'm nervous. I don't know what to make. Are you terrifying? Look at my hair this morning? I'm like, goodness, I was just about to say, letting it grow out. I'm into it. I like it. I'm totally I feel like I feel like a very nineties right now. It's some sort of middle part, you know, Yeah, you've got to You've got an end sync thing going on. Hey, middle parts are are perfectly valid. That's what the kids are doing again, what are they doing in the middle part? Very very in touch with the are you? Are you one community? I know about the younger kids these days. I know what they say and i know they're hair styles. And I'm very impressed by a lot of the works. Very British. It's a very British thing. They're all of the gym. I literally just go back from the gym and all of them have that sent a part, but like dead straight, like the David Beckhams, and they stu down to here and then and then it goes like this goes off the top of the head. Have you seen it, but like shaved everywhere else. It's like a reverse mullet. It's mental. No, that sounds terrified, it's wild. I don't know's it's the style. You know, we're just we're just out of touch because of our I think we're out of touch. Yeah, that's what it would all look like. It would be the d Could you imagine I'd have a middle part, you guys would have all these flips and flips and ship. Oh yeah, it would be a different show. Oh no, we would look so different. Well, Dom and I were talking about this the other day because we were looking back at some of the fashion and some of the stuff, and then chokers that emd in the show. It's insane. Chokers. Yeah, those are very in right now, are they? Have they come back again? I've come back that long? Yeah, Oh my lord, you don't know. I might. Here's the thing is that if I declare, it's true and it happens. So okay, let's go start it. That's true. I'm eating peanuts and I just want two more and then you can start. All right, Well, while you eat peanuts, I'm just gonna start this off and just say welcome back to Return to the Shadows today. Dom and I, I think are beyond excited because we have not only one of the most special people in the world of shadow Hunters, but one of our favorite people, the one, the only, Alec Lightwood. Matthew Didario. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Kat. That was a lovely introduction. I feel honored. I'm a little disappointed. Actually, I thought we were having Alberto back on. That's so I'm been hoodwinked. Yeah, that's the only way I got yet. I want to go from there. Oh yeah, I was going to let it a little bit, let's start starts what we mean to go on? I'm into it, Yeah, Angels, just to let y'all know, this is just a little peek into what actually went down on the Shadow Hunters set. Just utter Shenandians all the time. You don't even know, don't you don't know, you don't know us. It was the show was canceled because of us. That's the real truth, that they just couldn't take us anymore. We're finally telling them, Wow, it was us. It was our it was our misbehavior and our constant, unrelenting aggression towards each other. It was it was spiteful, hateful, even wholiganism. That's what it really was. I almost said hula hooliganism. Yeah, but it's hoholiganism. Hula hoop. Who is there h hoop on? That I missed that would have been. It makes me so sad, and now I'm stuck on that word. Hum. All right, So what are we dealing with today? What are we talking about? And what about the full introduction? You need more things? Is this? Is this the extent of what you guys do. This is pretty much literally it's exactly like a convention. That's all it is. We just have microphones. Oh wait, we have microphones at conventions as well. It's very similar to convention, except time on a chair. I like, dude, this is mental. I have this stool right in front of me, which is what I use for auditions. It's really uncomfortable. And for the first not kidding, fifty episodes of this show, that's what I sat on, and I was uncomfortable the whole time. And then I realized that I could just turn this from my living room directly into this space. I mean, what a revelation, Matt. You know, it's just breaking news. Tom turned a chair and now he's kind of took some It took some very impressive that you figured that out. It's these kind of these kind of really this this genius is display of genius. You would love this chair. You're making fun, but you would love this chair. I bought this chair and I went, Matt would love this, and I got a discount, and I know you love that I've ever shown an interest in comfortable chairs? Is that something that I'm I'm sort of you believe about. You got a hammock, you lived in a hammock for like the first two years of filming the show. Okay, okay, well get clear though you wanted to stand as long as you Okay, well listen, a hammock it's quite different from a chair. These are two very different things. And if you're going to say that you know me so well, okay, you know what, this is what we're doing. I'm gonna I don't think you want I don't think you want to be at that angle. It you don't think you want to be at that angle? I really don't. I don't. Okay, you're just yeah, you're just crotch first into the into the microphone, dignified. Tell me this isn't like a hammot now all right, Oh dear, I'm so far away from my mark. You're just yeah, you're just crotch first into the into the microphone. All right, oh dear? So well, well, dam is in this structure. This is Matt. This is as much structure as we get on this show. So welcome, Matt. Let's talk a little bit about you, because obviously so many of these folks have seen you on the show. They adore you as we do. But let's let's talk about you. Let's talk about Matt, the Matt up until Shadow Hunters. So you were you were born and raised in New York City, maybe maybe allegedly allegedly born and raised in New York City. Already a nightmare. We're all from places, and I'm from New York City, is what you say. And I think that I sound like somebody from New York City. That's all you've got. That's all the proof you've got, So continue, what else about me? Tell me more about me? I want to tell you more about you. You went to Indiana University. Actually, Matt, you and I have the same university degree, which is very interesting. Yes, yeah, true, yeah, like you graduated with a degree. What did you study mine or yours? What? It's the same. My official degree is majored in either finance and then economics as a as a miner or was economics, business economics and public policy. Boy, okay, well I didn't have the public policy part, but mine was also about thrown on there is business economics public policy? What does he even really mean? You know, whatever you wanted to make them, But it's a it's a Bachelor of Science and Business administration, you know, that's what that's well we did. I should be running. I'm supposed to be. I was designed by ro run public policy robots. One of the problems we had in Shadowers, we had a problem in shadow wanners, and I want to discuss this is a very serious problem. It was something it was never brought up. And I think because there's just a sort of a neat hatred on that set for robots. For robots, no robots. You think you have all this technology, and I know a lot of it's a lot of sort of magical elements of play here, but we never built a robot. And if you thought about it, you know, even just a robot one of those like vacuum robots had a roombat. Do you remember Rancor? Yeah, I remember, and then I since since the show, you remember Rancor, a little robot that used to eat my curtains. At the time, he was a nightmare. And then I threw him out and then I said, okay, I'm going to get a rank or two, and I got a rank or two. When I was in LA he was a nightmare as well. He would clean one spot of my my house and it was only exactly where my feet were. And I tested it like this is what happens when when actors between jobs. So you're unemployed, you play video games and you do free shot like this a lot of free time, right. So I would walk around the house with a cup of tea and see if it followed me. And it used to follow me around like a puppy. It was the weirdest thing, and so owns. The only trail around my house that would get clean is exactly where I'm standing. It was mentally damn dumb dumn. This thing happened too, and you don't realize that that's the first step towards sentience. This thing was searching. It is for love for car. It was like a small duckling following with its mother. You didn't you didn't get imprinted on you? Yeah, it imprinted on you. Very good. It sounds like no I did. That's why I threw them out. That's why I threw it out. A hundred cent put this together is how Maximum Overdrive started. And Terminator and like eighteen other robot movies. There's no way I was having that in my house. Actually sent it to you. But wait, if you threw it out or sent it to someone else, didn't you anger it further that he did was he No, he killed it. He killed a living sentient being, probably the first example of a robot becoming sentient, and he killed it. Now, this is the thing, is I think this is actually better than how the shadow Hunters would have handled it. You see what we would have done in the shadow Hunter world, we would have said, Okay, well look at this potential menace here. You know what we should do is I don't know nothing to see what plays out. Because if you've never watched the show, anyone who's listening to this, one of the things that shadow Hunters were very good at was ignoring realistic and obvious threats yeah and if, and sometimes even inviting them in, sometimes even creating those threats entirely by their own sort of will. Yes. And Kat's character Clary, was especially talented at this, well remembered. I was unsure if you were going to remember all the character names. You've got the lead, so that's a good start. I'm very proud of you. Well, who did I play? You know, I did my research. Dom played? Do you say, Jason, I'm going to fly to Minneapolis. Intention in the face where you live? Jay's good, very good, Jay. What's Jay short for? Because he's got little legs? What this is me? This is me sober, like entirely sober. I haven't had a sip of alcohol. That might be might be stupidest things I've ever said in my entire life. That was almost a me jokes. Are you okay? Because he has little legs? You? What do you mean? You don't understand? What's he short for? Like? What's the reason for him being sure? Is the joke? Because why is he sure? Because he's got little legs? Not? What is Jay short for? His full name? Yeah? Okay, Well, if anyone else there is a dumb dumb like Mattie and didn't understand the joke, I just gave you a play by play explanation of exactly why that's funny. I understand it, and I thought, actually it was very funny, and I'm just I'm very sore about it because it made me chuckle, but I didn't want it to. Okay, Well, matt we're very sorry for forcing humor upon you this morning. Um, but back to back to the structure of the show. This is half of my job on this podcast. Yeah, a little bit about you know, now you're an actor, you're a producer, you've directed things, you're you're doing, you're writing things. You're so involved in this industry. But that's not what you went to school for. So is that always where you wanted to go or what brought you kind of into this world that then brought you to shadow Hunters? Okay, here's all right. Fine, I'll give you a little sincerity for a moment, which I do not promise will continue. I think that I was reading something recently. This man was asking a question. He said that he wanted to he wanted to be an artist, and he doesn't like his job, and he wants to be an artist. And he says, somebody asked him, what specifically is it that you want to do? What do you want to create? Artist? Kind of a broad subject, right, and he's like, I just want to create stuff. I just want to feel creative. I want to be an artist. And it's kind of an interesting thought because you could sort of reject that very aggressively and say, well, that's that's silly. Different forms of art required sort of skills and different educations and whatever else. And in his case, it wasn't really like that. It was like, I don't really care how good it is. At first, I want to get better at it and I want to learn to create things. And I think that in the case of when you're an actor, when you're in this industry in general, you are so exposed to all the parts of it that they start to sort of melt together. And especially when you're on a show like Shadowners for a long time, you're exposed to all areas of that business and doesn't make you good at the other ones, but it does expose you to them, and you see their value, You see how you might want to take part in those other areas, and eventually, when it comes down to it, And I think this is something that said a lot maybe overset is that you want to tell stories and you want to you want to create something artistic. For lack of a better word there, I don't really know what else to say. You want to create something an art You want to create a story. You want to tell people a story that they find interesting. And I think that you can sometimes do that through acting, but other times you might have to make things. You have to maybe write things, and if they're not good, they don't get made. And that's okay, you know, but at least you're doing it. And as Dom said, sometimes if you're an active you have a lot of free time, you can spend that time twiddling your thumbs and uh, you know, sitting out in the fields, which would be really cool. Actually just sit out with your grousse all day and just waiting for quite therapeutic. It is, except if you did it, you know, nine hours a day, it's not really good use of your time and probably would get boring unless you're really chill. I'm not. So I do other things, and as I've been doing them over these years, I think I've been getting better at them, and I'm actually really starting to enjoy it. You said you weren't going to eat any more peanuts. I'm gonna though that was such. I was a really eloquently beautiful story, and you finished it by breaking your one rule for the podcast. It wasn't that beautiful. I'm not saying his role in life is not tweetings doesn't make any sense. It was, it was. It was nice. If I'm honest, I was waiting for a punchline the whole time. You had mischief written all over your face, like license. But I think we've just forgotten. That's just Matt difficult to tell sometimes. What is it that you know? You know, you guys are both actors, but I know that I know that both of you like to tell kind of story. I know that you guys actually really like this whole uh movie and TV thing. Hmm. Yeah. Do you have any aspirations beyond acting? Are you? Do? You just want to be a space cowboy, but you could act as a space cowboy, you know, I want to be a space cowboy. Yeah, but that's a that's a different that's not really art, is it? Or is everything art? Everything's on how you do it. You know, anything can be sciences up. Then I would say everything's up. I could argue sciences art, you know what. I'm just going to accept that. That's like it's like when somebody says something really just succinct, like that sciences art. So everything's art, you know what. I'm not going to even read into what that means because I don't even know what that means. But I don't pack it. You can feel it. I don't, but I think you can feel. That's a great saying. Also you can feel what that means? What does that mean? I don't know, but I like I like it because it's vague, doesn't really say anything, and it accomplishes this task, which is to basically tell Matt to stop talking and move on to the next point, so I can feel what you mean. Right now, you can feel what I mean. So tell me about Tell me about when I when I first showed up on set. I want to know when did this happen? You could tell me. I want to tell me how you hell upon first seeing me. I want you to describe so well, my first thought because I had just landed and all of y'all were there already, and you whisked me away to dinner and I met you, and my first thought was tall tall, Yeah, my first thought. So many more adjectives that could have been used to describe Matt, but you know, I know, but that was so clear. It was my first thought. I was like, Wow, this man is tall, which incept that as it, which is its accurate. But then but then I could tell because you you're like, you know, you take some time to get to know people, generally speaking, and I was like, there's more to this man. This will be fun than than just I have layers. Yes, yeah, And then there was nothing. Nothing came from that. Yeah, no, it really came from that, you know. Seven years later, lots came from that man. No, I would say seven years later. A tool is how I describe him. When people ask what do you like? What was it like working with him for that many years? I say, tall. Okay, I accept this, and I think that makes a lot of sense. I think tall and layered is what you said. A lot of depth, you said, a very interesting and fascinating person. You said all that, and don what's what's your opinion? My opinion was, um, so we I was there first, so I sort of heard the casting announcements coming in um and that sensation of you know, when you're about to have a heart attack, and it's just dread, like dread full dread, like the world is coming from an end, Like being a first date with somebody and you see them and they're just amazing. This is like being on a first date with someone and they turn up and they're the epitome of your worst enemy and you're like, oh no, everyone said this was going to happen, but I ignored them and I'm here anyway. And then I spent four years making the best of it. You know, it's like the beginning of every great film about two buddies. You start off hating each other, and then over time you grow. One of you becomes a more mature, impressive person, a more mature capable individual, and eventually that person is up to the standards of the other person and they become friend. So in my analogy, Aliens obviously maybe the best coming of age buddy story. You implanted an egged me. No, I'm saying you're the Queen. I would think you're the Queen. I'm I'm the queen. Queen. I put the egg into you and then she never does that. The Queen never does that. The Queen lays the eggs. We need to watch Aliens again, man. And I also I was seeing myself as Sigourney Weaver or newte you you, I mean, that is an outright Sigourney Weaver is a is a legendary. It's honestly, it's just outrageous for you to make that claim. But I actually, you know what you do give me Sigourney vibes sometimes. Yeah, that's powerful and strong. You're independent, very capable cat. You also gave me Sigourney vibe sometimes. Although I think Sigourney is quite tall. Yes, I'm quite sure I am. But we we let's talk a little bit about the casting process. So when did you were you aware of the of the books? How do you read them? How had you seen the film when you first got this in your inbox? What? What were your initial thoughts? Your costing story is my favorite of all of them. Give it to the people. Match just okay, fine, I'll throw a bone here. Okay, So the story is previously an audition for the film years before. That was my first exposure to this, and I auditioned for Jace. I believe the time, Um I wasn't right for the role, because um I wasn't a stupid idiot. But then I but then I. Then I eventually got this audition for the TV show version, and they auditioned me for Alec maybe the audition me for Jay's first Now I don't even remember. This is so long ago, guys, You have to understand the years just they keep flying by. This was like it was almost eight years ago that we were auditioning. Is it really just that? Yeah? Okay, it was. I go in, I do the audition in New York. I get a phone call they tell me, you got to go to LA for the audition in front of the big wigs or whatever. And you walk into a room lots of people in this in this big dark room, and you do your thing and then you leave. And then the next morning they call me and they say you're doing this. You're doing the show. And I go, oh, great, that's awesome. And they said you have to make a Twitter, counter, Instagram or social media accounts and you have to make them open. And I'm like, well, that sounds like like fun. Social media is a is a great thing that everybody likes and has never harmed anyone or society as a whole. So I love that. And I get to the airport, I get on a plane, and then I get off the plane and I remember that my phone wasn't really working because it was just you have to turn off it was. So the show was very big from the get go, and I learned that, so then I had to dive into it. So casting wise, actually, the part that I find more interesting, and I think this is true for lots of TV shows and when people get casting things, is that you generally get cast, you're excited, then you go to work, you know, and then you hope, you hope, you hope, you say, Okay, how is this going to be received? Is this going to go in a direction that's going to continue? Are people are gonna like me? People like this. We didn't have that experience at all, and I don't really know how to describe exactly like it was every single day it was like people telling you you're gonna do great, We're really proud of you, and then other people questioning, you know, cautiously optimistic, and then they released some information or release some footage and people go crazy and you're like, wow, is this going to be big when it releases? And then it comes out and people are enthusiastic. So it was just sort of a general positivity from day one to the end, and that it was kind of strange. There was no oh, I'm off filming quietly. It was like from the beginning, it's like we've already released. So that was a sort of unique experience. You're right, actually, yeah, we had. Nobody's really touched on that yet. That from the beginning, it already felt like a success. Even if we'd only done that first season, it already felt like a success because normally, as Matt was saying, with any other TV show or movie that doesn't have like a solidified fan base, so it's not a sequel or it's not based on something or whatever. You do try something and you go fingers crossed, like, let's hope that people like this because we have truly no idea. You have no idea how this is going to land with an audience. And you can test audiences, you can see what's going on socially, you can try and sort of figure out and second guess things, but sometimes that just doesn't work and it's just not the case, which is really interesting. See. Yeah, I mean there's there's all kinds of great shows that go unnoticed. You know, sometimes they get noticed later on or they get canceled who knows, and you're like, what I do wrong under the next one? And this never really felt like that. That was This was a very different I mean more than shows getting canceled, Like, there are so many pilots that happen that could have turned into great shows and never evolved past on stage. There are so many steps out there that don't ever get made that that a genius, that are brilliant, but they never get to that stage. The best movie you ever made is sitting on a a desk somewhere and on paper it's acts on my I mean, I it's a real lad sense. But no, but you're right, man. We were really lucky because we had this kind of microcosm of being released into the world in little bits and pieces with a fandom that was so excited, and a fandom that was had had the books and the film, but they were still ready to be open to something new. And that's you know that, Yes, there was some questioning, and yes there's you know, people wanted it to be done well, and we're cautiously optimistic, but largely pretty open to us coming in and kind of taking over the story that they loved so much. It was almost universally positive. I didn't see how negativity. I was just microcosm. Meant I almost misspelled it. It was very close to coming up with a whole bunch of different results that would be interesting, you know what to see it chasms. Yeah. Have you ever been to Mount Everest? No you no, I had. I went to the top. Yeah, I took your flag off the top. Actually I went right after you did, and I, oh, thank you. Get rid of massive yeah, I was thinking that the Shadow Hunters, maybe you should have spent more time in obscure or outrageous locations. We spent a lot of time in New York. I know that was our jurisdiction, and I know that were and sometimes we would you know, kick on out to other places. But I really think I think one of the things would have been great is if we had gone to all kinds of bizarre locations. You know, I would have really hell right, yeah, yeah place and the seely realm. Again, interdimensional travel is not quite went to they dimensions? Are they realms? Hell? Was? Hell is realm? It's a realm. It's a realm. What is a realm? Is a realm? Like? Uh? Is the ocean a realm? No? I think it's just an adjacent plane of existence. It's a different way, same plane of existence, same an adjacent it's an adjacent plane of existence. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's another dimension, but I would say it's well, then, what's the difference between a dimension existing within the same universe at a different I think this is okay. You know there's somebody who could answer this for us, I'm sure, So let me just hop on to you know, read it or something and just ask that question. I'm sure somebody will give me an answer, so I'll get back to this is what we mean. This used to happen on and we've spoken about this a whole bunch. What they talked about our round table a lot, which is it's actually a really lovely thing to have and doesn't happen particularly frequently on a TV set like the round table they gave for us, and we'd all sit around it and have snacks and like chat in between scenes, and you you will go off on some ludicrous tangent like we just have what's the difference between a dimension and a realm? Did we have realms? Is the moon just the back of the sun? Nobody knows. So then you would get into that and go people know that one. I'm gonna google do they shut it? Then you would go on Google this and I'm gonna figure out the real answer, and then we would move on to whatever the next facet of conversation is, and you would come back like eight or nine minutes later and be like, oh, this is fascinating, Oh god, this I think it's weird that you can't things tangents, right, but it's just knowledge, so it's not really a tangent. And in this case I need to make very clear actors between scenes or sometimes extremely bored. Not all the time. Sometimes it can be like NonStop work where there's no escape from it. But other times you are sitting there and you're gonna read stuff, or you can talk to each other. You can stare at your phone and press buttons. Who the heck knows what you're gonna do. But when you have a when you have enough time around other people, you can't just listen to people speculate all the time. You gotta sometimes, you know, solve the question at hand, and then that also opens up new questions, which I think is really great. I mean, we can speculate all the day about all kinds of things. I think it's great. For example, when people speculate about the show, I think it almost brings new life to it. It's more fun when somebody can can talk about what if you know, what if we had done what if we had gone to Mount every which was my original question. Would you guys just you steamrolled me? Well done, well done for bringing us back. Good job. Okay, well you're back on track here, that's your primarily So anyway, you guys have never been to to Mount Everest as people, right, No, but it seems like it's very high up. Have you heard about this, Yes, mountain in the world. It's the tallest mountain on Earth, they say, And it's the tallest place on Earth, isn't it? Yes? Well, what about the what about the sky? Is the sky of place? Is that realm place? What are all the clouds of a realm? Different levels to say, okay, the cloud rend Everest. Mount Everest should have been a place where there should have been demons inside the mountain. Okay, okay, because like if you think about it, is hell inside the earth, like like Lord of the Rings, like the dwarfs, like they have their own little their minds, they have minds in the minds of Maria. And yeah, yeah, so I think not our jurisdiction. See, now this gets down to the question. This is one of the serious problems with Shadow on Us was that our jurisdiction was actually quite limited and we really were just sort of we're really part of it, an organization with a lot of leadership levels, probably very top heavy also, by the way, and there wasn't a lot of discretion allowed in our sort of almost like borderline policing work. It wasn't really clear what our real job was except to maintain order in what was sort of terrifying world of different different I don't even know, like creatures, but demons that not, and the Mundanes. It was just very complex, and honestly, I think the work. For one, I don't think that the Shadowers were being paid well enough. The actors obviously were being paid. The Disney Corporation didn't pay us. That's not anyway I would work for them again talking about Alec and Jason cat Yeah, and we went, so what what are the what are the shadow owners? What motivates them? Duty? Honor, duty and honor? Every time I say duty, dumb kn't handle it. Well, it doesn't sound right to me. We would say duty, duty is much more important, and I just I just don't think that duty and honor were appropriate paycheck. And also as they don't have we established they don't have robots, so they're also mopping the floors. They don't have robot vacuums. They're they're vacuum at the end of the day. A whole episode his tie, his sword. Any vacuums the entire, the entire at some point. Yeah, like when we were trainees. I'm sure that was our job was to vacuum. I shouldn't be doing this motion. Very higher artists could be anything. They're making a pizza or level is Where did we have a kitchen? Yeah, we have a shadow en we ever see that? Yeah? Well where we got to have breakfast. It was awesome. It was like pancakes and bacon. It was the best. That was the best. I had such a good day. That was such a bizarre moment. Only could not keep a straight face though none of you no my bacon. It was so strange about having us I'll sit down, and yet it was just so strange, such an out of the box thing, which I again like just one room that we used for almost anything. We used it for weddings, We used it for breakfast apparently, which I had assumed means also lunch and dinner. We used it for training, We used it for fight scenes, we used it for someone else helped me out beca I'm running out of things. I got to seven. I think I think we definitely brought a demon onto the planet in that one. Oh we did summoning, yes, but practically yes, we did it in our studio, but it wasn't I always assumed that it was meant to represent different rooms in the institute, like the breakfas. This room was not meant to be the same as the training room. Yeah, it was not to be the same as the wedding room. But but I always assumed that it was meant to be different parts of the institute. Which was your favorite room in the institute, So the institute for those of you don't know, the training room, like the training room. Yeah, that was also the dining room. Yes, the candles in the pillars, yeah, okay, yeah, that's the one We would change up a lot. So I think my favorite room was was Donald's Jason's room. My bedroom was one hundred percent. I also like the Chinese restaurant. The Chinese restaurant looked so authentic that at times I wanted to I wanted to eat there. You could like smell the MSG on your way through. We did once when when Cassie said we brought dim sum into uh, they brought you guys, I mean you were there. Alex Lightwood was getting in shape, Alex Whitewood was not allowed to eat them some at that point. Oh yeah, that didn't last very long. Like we trained really hard but then and we continued training hard a lot, but like I stopped eating properly. I was gonna say, I definitely was training all the time. Yes, so was I. No, I started eating potatoes again at one point and pasta Oh yeah, yeah, I never stopped eating potatoes. Yeah, so what else you got on that docket there? I'm bored of the institute. I want more. We switched up a little bit. But when you first got to Set, you know, we've told you what our first impressions were, But when you first got to Set, when you first met all of us, what were your first impressions? What were you most excited to dive into? What met your expectations? What was different than what you thought favorite? If you don't want to, I mean, if you do want to know it's not well, then you should say it. But if it's not me, then I wouldn't worry about it. You don't even say when I'm going to force you to say anything, you know. I mean when I first showed up, I didn't have a favorite. I thought all of you equally, I'll say this. Look, I mean, it's very obviously you guys are fishing for compliments here, just so strange and come might be I think that we can cut that out, Diego. We don't need him to say that in this we can just I think it's very important to show we can say whatever we want. You can say, you can say whatever you want, but it's not going to hide the fact that when I first met you, I was I was. You know, sometimes you go to a restaurant and the place looks nice, and then they bring out the food and you're like, well, everything about this, the presentation is fantastic. The way it looks smells nice too. Dom in particular, I mean the restaurant, and then the food comes, which is the core element of what a restaurant is supposed to do, and it's just not very good. And in terms of in terms of what kind of restaurant I'm talking about here, there were like four restaurants that I met on the first day on set, and the food was pretty good, but it wasn't great. And over time I think it improved, and then we eventually added some other people who were just they were just perfect from the beginning Chef's kiss very good. I like that the physicality came into the I like these metaphors. Now, let's let's talk a little bit about Alec and about this character, because let's leave it on a negative, let's leave it on a hypothe I loved all of you guys, and I was very impressed you all seem you all seem like real nice people, and I was real excited. I was one of the positive things that you said. And just leave no part of this. You should know, you should all know if you're listening to this. There there has never been a cast of seven mains. We have seven mains or eight eight depending time with Alicia, which sees it was that got along better? This is not It doesn't happen, just doesn't happen. People is always at least one, yeah, exactly, grabs grabs seven or eight people just off randomly. And see how how you've ever been on a jury before? No, no, yeah, I would like it getting me, man. I'm telling you, I don't know how they find they find me, Like I talk to people, nobody's ever been on jury, be like they get me like three times. The only thing I've been alive long enough to be on the jury three times? What are the laws about this? They're throwing me on the jury. It feels like I'm a shadow on them. Do you respond to random emails like when the prints of some country that you've never heard of as you've won, you know, it's not how they get you on jury duty? Are you talking about if the US government sends me a random The US government's a real thing. Yes, it is. Actually, yeah, it's not. It's not like in Shadowman. So remember that we're talking about too different things. So in this case, I'm not I'm not driven by duty and honor in that area, but I do feel a certain level of duty and honor and that's why I go and I do jury stuff. But I'm starting I'm starting to get you know, it's running a little thin. And they pay you every day, you know, but you know the point their duty they pay. Yeah, yeah, I think they raised the amount too. I think it's like thirty dollars a day or something. But you know, so that's but that's maybe not enough to really inspire that duty. You need to electrify the soul, you know, you need to really tell me and not and not sort of chastise me instead as we look at this honor that is bestowed upon you, and I think that they should send your cake. I think they should send you some kind of like a metal you did great job of jury duty, something that really inspires you, you know. And that's the problem with the Shadow Hunt an organization because they didn't do enough. Not there weren't enough medals, weren't enough awards, you know, and every other military on the planet has figured it out. There's constant awards that they're getting pins all over them. They look like pin cushions. Us the three of us never got a single medal. I think we got chastised, but chastise more than we got metals. Yeah, we just get chastised. We do something good. Nothing happened to do something. We saved the world. The three of us saved the world like eight different times. We can get single medal, no single one. We also did almost destroy the world a few times. It's like it's like a balanced system, that's what it is. Like, Yeah, we were gonna give it, but this is just negated the last six times you guys fucked up. So yeah, I think that actually maybe we would have gotten awards well, honestly no. But but that's exactly the case Dumb, because literally the inquisitor Mini's character after I killed Valentine, it's like, oh, okay, so you killed your dad. Good job. I guess you're not on his side, so we won't, you know, continue to prosecute you. There's definitely some neptism involved in all this. And also like, for example, at the Kent Institute in Ohio, Ohio, that's where Dumb is actually from. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, or he's from the accent and the house and the facade. Yeah, it's all a facade, yeah, for sure. Speaking of awards, you won an award for the show. Oh, look at that segue. I know, I know, I came upward. What was it one? I w W. I won the Teen Choice Award for Breakout Star in twenty sixteen Teen Choice and then I won I won the Best Male Sci Fi Actor. That's right, that's right, in like twenty eighteen. Yeah, like two. Yeah, I have the surfboards. Yeah, you've got two surfboards. I hear you can use them. You can. They're amazing. I have one. We have one when we won for the show. They're actually incredible. I've got two in that are in storage right now because I don't know what to do with them. They're in storage. Oh, cut them in half and use them as shelves. That's brilliant. That is brilliant. Cutn't which direction? Obviously long ways? Convertically that way? Yeah, yeah, you can just stick them on the wall and they're nice little thin bookshelves. Cut them which way, cut them into tiny little strips like this, psycho. You know, you know there's like there used to be these tests at school with like ARB tests. Yeah, I don't know what they used to call them, depending on the state you're in, and then be like logic products business trying to determine these kids capable of learning stuff. The answer is always no. The thing is is that for actors, they should have this every year to continue on and it should be things like if you receive a teen Choice award, which way would you cut it to turn in the show, and things like that. I don't know, I've missed you, Matt, I've missed you. And now that we're off on this other hand, I'm gonna really both back in. I'm gonna I'm gonna pull pull the surfboard back into shore. Okay, and uh, let's talk about Alec a little bit, because Alec had a huge growth and a huge development throughout the show and changed a lot as a character um and went through a lot as a character. And so first through third season, did you have any favorite kind of moments or favorite things that you got to do as an actor with Alec that that you look fondly upon, or you know, scenes that were your favorite or something. I think that after the after the first season, we had a fundamental shift in the way that the show is run, and there was an effort to adjust how the storylines proceeded, and sometimes it went to more of a dark place. There was things that were more there's things became more serious, I think. I think in the first season there was a kind of lighthearted quality at times, almost like fun was the primary focus. Did you get this sense at all? There was things that were kind of fun. Of course it was it was pretty intense, but then it started to be like, okay, and then there were times in the second and third season, especially for the Jay's character, they were quite unpleasant, and I think that Alec had a lot of that as well. But Alec luckily got a really nice story arc where he has a sort of a starts off kind of unpleasant and negative and then he grows from there, Whereas I think that, you know, like Jay started off all cocky and happy and then he got broken and he never recovered, which was great to see. And I think that and Clary, you know what happened to you at the end, Clary, I lost my memories. I got punished, Yeah, punished, yeah, yeah, deserved. You know I think that, Alec really, if you, if you look at it, I got to be this character that had had a really nice trajectory and ends with him getting married and getting out of the game, getting out of this place doesn't pay well enough. The demands duty and honor from you, but doesn't respect you, but doesn't It doesn't respect your fundamental rights. It doesn't respect who you are. And that's the problem with the whole clu. What is the organization called the Clave? Even the name is sinister, sinister name, and the whole organization is run by a bunch of authoritarian somewhat I don't even know, stuck to an ideology from the past, some kind of vaguely, vaguely, I don't even know. It's like a myth based religious society with a sort of a dictator type quality to it. I'm not really sure how it all works. Yeah, it does have it does Geneva convention like aspects to it, You know what I mean? What was our one cold? There was like a there was after the uprising, there was like a the Accords, the Chords Accords. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it sounds like what they're trying to do is control a group of people and tell them how to live their lives. And frankly, I'm not about it. I'm not for it, and I don't like I don't like what it implies. So by the end, due to the valiant attempts of all of us to fight against this, this this evil organization. Who was the real bad guy in this film? By the way, I wanted in the show, it's not the demons. The demons were fine. They were just chilling. They're doing the thing. They're from Hell already, you said, just because they're from Hell, they're bad. It's ridiculous. It's an absurd comment. You don't know anything about. It wasn't exactly, No, it wasn't he was talking about He was absolutely evil. Was he was misunderstood. He was made well, okay, he was injected with demon blood and then made to be evil because he was tortured for ten years in hell. He hung me. I never really had a chance, you remember, he hung me on the bridge. He hung me right, fair enough. Yeah, but that's true. But you know, but you were You also became a demon creature and killed some people my fault? So did I? So did you? Did your fault when you get when you get taken over by a demon and kill He wasn't taken over by it and demon and kill someone? Know? Then? How was it? How was it his fault? It wasn't alex fault. He wasn't taken over by a demon? Will what happened to him? He was? He was raised badly? Oh, Jonathan? So is it his fault? How do we apply fault at impay and negative impact? How can we apply any level of fault to any of these these characters? We can't apply fault from their birth. We can apply fault to their to the things they've done. We can say these things are wrong. But ultimately at the core of it is that the Clave is an evil organization. Into the nature nurture argument is that what's happening yet A little bit? No, no, no, we're not. When I'm not getting into the more the moralistic things like that. I'm just saying that the Clave is an evil organization hell bent on controlling it's it's underpaid, if paid at all, we are I'm very often understaffed as well. While while heavily understaffed, heavily understaffed because you can't get new staff if you're just demanding duty and honor as the primary motivation for work. Yeah, but what that led to was some really fun Yes, hold on, you're right. Sorry. Alex As his character fought against that organization, marries the love of his life. Yeah, the lovely Magnus, making the lovely couple. Malik his best friend has died at one point, came back, and then the Clary person. All these terrible things happening, but he in the end gets married and he gets out. He gets out, moves out, done, no more Clave, all done, and then they break it up from the inside. They turn it into just a normal semi hands on, you know, democratic environment where people get voted in kind of this is what you think happened, this is your like we get asked this a lot obviously, like what do you think happened after this? And my response is always the same. It's a bit of a cop out, but it's like, well, it's interesting for us to give this back to the audience. You know, if a thousand people watch it, a thousand people are going to have a different idea of what happened with the continuation of this story, because it's all hypothetical and it's up to you and how you relates to the characters and so on. So your interpretation of that potentially is eu Trojan horst into the system to take it down from the inside. Yes, correct, It didn't like take it down in sort of like a revolutionary where it just slowly sort of dismantled the parts that we're keeping this kind of structure upright, you know. And so you take a little party, take out this position, oh, make this position elected, and then you get some other organizations to sort of control the nature of that electorate and all that, and then you start paying people more and doing all that, and before you know it, the whole thing falls apart and the demons aren't turn out they're not actually bad. Because you know, you've ever seen the show Galaxy Quest No the movie, you know. Yeah, so the historical documents best the show that this follows around and ours are like historical documents. They're they're designed to present a story that's not entirely true. The enemies are are demons and all that, but it's just it's all heightened. In fact, none of it was actually that what an interesting concept, like if aliens are watching this right now, somewhere in a distant galaxy or maybe on the distant edge of our galaxy, who knows, with no context they're watching this and who do they think are the good guys versus a bad guys? Because we do we do some messed ups up and do and do they view this as a propaganda film? But there's a there's a major problem in your whole statement here is that the show has only been on the air for seven years, right, light that light hasn't even reached the end of the Solar system. I don't think that's true. I mean, we weren't sending the information via light, are we light? As radiation? Radiation travels to speed of light. So yeah, no, and oh okay, so alright, so maybe the maybe the aliens on Neptune though, because Neptune is just pactful aliens. Anyway, Oh that makes sense. I think I think that in this case, it's it's it's important to recognize that maybe the world we've been presented in the show Shadow Honors is a is really just sort of a propagandize show created by an organization that is fundamentally evil, the Cliff and we were servants of that empire. Yeah, right, you heard it. Here has been a pleasure. Um soon, no, we have more but uh but no, let's say let's say this like, you know, yes, it was something that we always love talking about on the show, is that the good guys weren't necessarily the good guys, and the bad guys weren't necessarily the bad guys. And what that led to were some you know, very interesting relationships and friendships along the way. For example, you know Jason Alec who were Parabatie and that, you know, you got to explore that relationship and Alec and Clary who were often at odds, but because they cared about and one of the same things, they just came from very different perspectives and very different upbringings, and it was it was I loved exploring, you know, seeing your two relationship develop and get explored in different and tested in different ways in the show. And then we often got put together on the show, and it was always it was a it was a fun balance to play between this kind of love hate friendship. Well, look, we had, like you said, we had shared goals, right, yeah, yeah, we wanted well sometimes you wanted to keep Jason alive because you thought he was cute. Yeah, And I wanted to keep him alive because he was my bond closer than brotherhood. I mean, something incomprehensible, and you were just trying to basically, Claire was trying to take Jas from Alec, and I mean I just wanted to share him. I didn't want to take him. There was no shore not I think you would have shared. I can share, you cannot. I didn't feel shared. You didn't. You didn't feel thank you for this information. I felt like Alec got a very small piece of the pie. Okay, But then it turned out that you guys couldn't be together. Yeah, yeah, siblings For a minute, you did, but you weren't. Yeah. No, no, did you know in the books that that goes on for like three books? Oh, my Yeah, yeah, that's probably not for the best. Here's the thing though, In the end, you guys end up in a good sort of good situation. And I actually okay at the ending, right, So I liked Alec, ended up liking Clary and because shared goals, right, very clear they both both each other. Yeah, we trusted each other by the end. Yes, I was not concerned that you turn coat on us and do something crazy. I was more concerned that you'd get into some mischief because sometimes you would have your own little goals and ways of doing things, like raising demons that yeah, I don't know, he's my brother. Yeah he was briefly, and then he wasn't. No, the other guy, oh, the other guy. The guys more than just one demon. We're doing demons. Yeah, I think so too. I'm trying to remember as well. I think you raised a whole bunch of demons. Yeah, I know. I I brought my add back then killed me. Maybe it was like a blood loss. Maybe we were raising them because they weren't enough damons for us as slaughter. Yeah, so we would be like, oh, we need to know. We used to talk about this, like do you remember we would talk about during these like board sessions when we were just like sat around the round table and we'd be like, Okay, cool, so what happens Shadow Hunters, Zombie Apocalypse, what happens? How do we? How do we function here? Like? These were honestly some of the best slash worst ideas that we've ever had on set was dealing with how like Jason, Alec and Clary would deal with these like extrenuous situations. Yeah, like what didn't we go into this whole one where this was like a psychotic break that four friends had had and they just live in this abandoned church together and pretend to my demons with like sticks. I think that was just you I don't think you know, that would be a very interesting It would be an interesting way to something where people go into the Narnia whatever. No, there's no closet that they're going to in the language robe. Yeah, they're just still in the same place, just sort of dreaming. Yeah, I think that's a that's a good possibility. But it does reveal a little bit about themselves because they are exceedingly violent, very martial society and Starship Troopers a little bit definitely feels like Starship Troopers very starship Troopers. You're right, what was the nature of the question you asked? I was talking about the relationships on the show, but you touched on it. The biggest, arguably the biggest and most beloved relationship on the show is Malick and Dom and I talk about this literally every episode. We talk about the incredible work that you and Harry did on the show for so many years making this relationship that felt so honest and so well structured and so on. Arguably the healthiest relationship on the entire series, certainly the healthiest. Yeah, Kat brings that up a lot. It's very true, which is very true, but also a little hurtful, as fifty percent of the relationship that she was in anything except structure of the story and how they communicate. Jason Clarie has a lovely relationship, but they don't communicate at all. Right, true, didn't you also have relationship with somebody else? Simon? Oh? She did, yeah with Simon a little bit Sebastian for a hot minute that season. Yes, who was my brother in disguise? Again, it's the whole thing. So anyway, I think that the very clear Malick was definitely the best relationship on the show, and that's due to people putting a lot of time and effort into it. I think that ultimately also having the tremendous support from fans also really helped sort of guide. Now. I don't think that generally shows should listen to fans when it comes to making decisions about characters and things like that, and I'm not saying that our show did. However, there was some element of this that did matter deeply to fans and people who watched the show, and it was seemed to be a unanimous kind of position, and it seemed to be very very widespread. So there was a certain level of Okay, what are people looking for, and what do people really want here? And what would I what would cause somebody an enormous amount of distress to see. So we tried to avoid things that were maybe like for example, false to create drama, and instead you want to create a kind of a storyline that feeds in without sort of false moments of destruction or fear about that relationship. And I think that they handled that very well, and I think that also the arc ended up working very well. So we saw a little bit of Magus's dark side and the things that he's dealing with as this immortal, ultra powerful being, and we saw a little bit of Alex growth as a very human individual who has happens have certain superpowers. And I think that by working through those on the show, as they worked with those together, which we saw a lot of that, they worked, they kind of you know, they worked on each other's issues, and they talked to each other, they communicated. That made it a very real relationship and also really justified their love for each other, which was more than just some kind of faded thing. Although you can call a fad if you want to. I don't know, it depends on your opinion, but it was it was justified. It was justified love that grew over an appropriate period of time. We saw them grow together, understand each other, and then finally get fucking married. Married. Yeah. Well, and they weren't without their problems. They weren't without their back and forth. Yeah and that, but they worked through it and it was good. Yeah. But we should also talk about the time frame. We do talk about the time frame a lot on this show. So we covered less than a month in all of the seasons. If you look at the actual timeframe of what happened, and when it happened, happened within a month. Oh, I think that I calculated this once it was I think it was maybe three in total. I think at the point that you and I are at, we're about halfway through season two right now. Yeah, so we it's been about a month for us. But I think in total it's it's about three months, because at one point it jumps a week and there's one but like, there's certain things that happen. But I think you're right, mad. I think it was like three three and a half months in total. Yeah, I mean, when you know, you know that always happens. That's like I'm breaking bad. It was like breaking bad was only nine months or sign or eight months, which is pretty wild. Yeah, it just happened, you know. I just have to sort of take it as you see it. Time is a time constructor we made it up. It is. It's a construct. Humans made it up. The alien's watching on Neptune. They're like, we don't care because we have a different version of time, you know what I mean, their days will be much longer, right, true, love knows no time. You know, you've got an eight hundred seven year old Warlock and that twenty something year old shadow hunter. It love knows no time. Okay, you know what I've noticed about getting older, which I've stopped doing, Like I stopped that like six years ago. Oh yeah you so yeah, that wasn't for it. But one of the things I noticed about was that there is a point at which you signed just it's just kind of the same, right, And it's actually interesting, like humans don't really have the capacity to really evolve themselves all that far. You get to a certain point and then you start degrading. And for you know, some people like Dom, it starts when they're twelve. For me, I haven't hit that degrading part yet. Kat, the same as you, I think probably, I don't know. So funny, I think so much of what you do is degrading. Oh god, you sist today, Tom was like a set up comedian today. Good it's gracious. I mean, I'm laying them on thick here without without even given I'm sorry for what I'm doing today. I'm sorry. This has been Honestly, this has been We've done so little work here. This has been the easiest. Guest. We've been awaiting your arrival for work. Were you talking about this is this is work. No, Kat and I have done with you don't know what We've just very good, very good. I'm not even mad. That's very good. I mean you did get paid to hang out with us for like five years, and now you just have to do it for free and you're like, uh oh wait, yeah no, it's not just duty on that drives this friendship. I'm gonna pay my pants. You gotta stop. Like, I think it's really funny. Maybe you shouldn't sit in that chair then duh, Yeah, I shouldn't sit in this chair. I don't think it's been squatch guarded sitting on a towel. What I want to say. I wanted to say something about the something about the Time show, the time the show went on for a while time. Oh right, So anyway, you get to a certain age and you sort of stop progressing, and I think that you can learn new things, but you're still the person you were at some point. And I know people say this like sometimes it's like some people are stuck at a certain age. Magnus is the same way, Like, I don't really have a problem. It's like we can't apply the same sort of sense of age and understanding. When somebody is of a certain age and then somebody's eight hundred and fifty, you know, not a problem we're gonna have to deal with in the real world. But if Magnus, let's say Magnus is an immortal, being a thousand years old. When someone's immortal, yeah, well, and also doesn't have a concept of mortality, right, like, so it's not he's almost a thousand years old. You fantalize him a little bit. Yeah, keep him kind of as a child, because you don't without the fear of death, you don't have that constant sort of understanding. Also the fact that you're not aging, so that you don't have the visible and physical factors of age. So really he's sort of stuck as this young man, so he never really matures in that way. And you can tell that Magnus is not somebody who's of unbelievable wisdom. He's of a certain level of wisdom, but he still struggles with things that's still haunt him from the past. He's not oh I see laugh, he's that entirely omnipotent. Yeah, he still has like unresolved he sot has issues that need to be based in challenge. Yeah, and he's still he's still has the emotional capacities of immortal, Yeah, even though he's immortal. Yes, And it's it's kind of interesting, it's it's sort of it's strange. You know, you meet people of a certain age and there their wisdom seems to come from a sense of fatal and there's an end coming soon, and that gives them a tremendous sense of calm and peace or sometimes not because but they recognize a kind of acceptance of their of their fate, acceptance of their humanity. And when you're young, you don't really have that, and sometimes you need humans sometimes need that like shown to them, and sometimes it's free, and sometimes it creates a tremendous sometimes, like what are the two things you're born afraid of the dark and falling? Right, Like the two things that are innately we're afraid of children is the dark and falling, like because you can have that sense of like being dropped as scary, right, have that concept of gravity. I think those are the two things you're born being scared of. So you don't you're not born with a concept of mortality. You're not born with a concept of a finite end to this existence that you have. It has to be taught, It has to be learned. That makes sense, no, But but in the end, Matt, you of all people are timeless to us. Thank you and perpletely legendary. What a button. Thank you. But you know, thank you so much for coming on with us today. And we just did Doria and we talk about your incredible work and the joy that you brought both on and offscreen to us during the show. So thank you for that. And you know what is long since because I was so insufferable on this, I just want to say, I think it's great that you guys did this podcast. I think it's really cools. Fans seem to love it, as I listened to some of them, and I know that you've mentioned that fans seem to really enjoy it, and I think that's really great. The show was really an amazing experience, something really cool, and it's something that I'm not sure with the nature of TV anymore, will something like that. I'm not sure really where that will come around again. And so it was very very it was very cool to be a part of that, and I hope that people continue to watch that owners going into the future and people who've never even heard of it in ten years, they hear of it and they say, hey, what's the show. They check it out and maybe it means something to them, maybe they like it, maybe it's important to them, so that'd be great. It's nice. Sharon is a great siste. Nice thing. It's a perfect way to bring this to an end. Matt, thank you so much for joining us. We know people who have been clambering at the bit to try and get you on here us included, So thank you so much for taking some time autie your day and sharing some stories with us. Love you buddy, Thank you guys. Love you have your bye bye bye. Return to the Shadows as hosted and executive produced by me Dominic, Sherwood and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producer is Langley. Our senior producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our producer is Hannah Harris and Kristin Vermilia, and our intern is Sam Kat's. Original music by Alex Kinsey performed by Alex Kinsey and Katherine McNamara, and the episode was mixed by Seth A. Lansky.