Hi, Joel, how are you. I'm good? How are you? I'm good. I had to make it all the way here from the seventies when I made it. Where are you right now? I'm in Santa Fe. And where's dom I don't know where Domma is there? Oh, Dona is in your London right? Being international people I know? And where are you? I'm in Toronto right now? Oh my god? Three countries right, It's crazy, it's beautiful. How are you? Guys? Guys? We made this work. We did. I'm glad that our third choice could make it because our first two choices obviously were busy. And then you know what, I kept I kept delaying this, but I really had no work obligations. I was just like, now we're just creating the I was like, diego, I'm on set, I'm busy, And the whole time I was just at home at home doing nothing. Netflix the entire time. That's funny. Basically what this podcast is we just Netflix and and talk about. UM, it's nice to talk to you guys, man, this is nice. I'm actually shocked that we made it work because for a while I was like, this is pointless. We were determined, we weren't going to let this go back. Okay, I like it. I like it. Okay, full disclosure. I fucked up? Oh wait wait can can I swear? What is? What are the ground rules here, guys? Cat and I have produces so you can do whatever you want basically like and also if we don't like anything you say, we're just going to cut it out. So it's not a big deal. And how come I can't see your face? Dom? Did you get what happened? I can see Cat? Why can't I see it? Oh? Are you? I'm just wondering, like, have you been horribly disfigured? Have you gained? And there you are? You beautiful man? Stop. I didn't want to do the video, okay, so full disclosure. I woke up at six am because I screwed up Pacific time SEM and then I tried to log in and I was like, wait a minute, I got this backwards, So yeah, that's it, that's mine. It happens. It happened. Actually have a watch upstairs that has the World time on it because I'm constantly messing up my girlfriends in California, and I'm constantly messing it up, so i'd like, do you see your girlfriends in California? Was that girlfriends in California? I said? Girlfriend is? And then is a fairly common grammatical colloquialism. You put like an apostrophe, and it's girlfriends as in girlfriend is like a slightly shortened version of girlfriend. We can get into her girlfriend is. That's what she just text me. Someone's ears were burning. Hey are you in your new house in in the UK right now? I am? I just realized. Is this your first time owning a home? It is my first time owning a home. I'm very, very excited about it. Although every morning is like some new job that I need, some new like I'm like, I hate this, I am this, I'm fixing this. This is going to happen. Hardwood floors is the next, the next big project throughout the house. Nice. Yeah, home ownership is. Home ownership is awful. Are you in your home which you own? I am in my home that I hope that I own, and yes it is? It can't. I mean, actually, my son room right now because it's beautiful outside. Um, I have a sunroom. I'm literally kind of half outside right now because it's like three d degrees outside. Is it? And is it going to be super hot for the rest of the world. That's like in sort of approaching the nineties. Sorry for the Americans, UM, not the rest of them. With the rest of the world, everyone else does ctigrade. That's got a calculator out. I know I can gues estimate. Is it has it been that hot for a while. I'm at a bachelor party on uh Saturday in Toronto. It's hot. It's been like this all summer. Been fantastic. It's been like sticky, my skin is glowing. It's good that love that. UM. I feel like we're going to get down to any of our questions. By the way, listen, I was just about trying to segue as in there and you immediately interrupted me, and I was like, this is I'm seeing a pattern forming here. So this is something that Dom and I love about these deep dives is we get to learn so much about people that we think we know, and we definitely love um, but we you know, I'm sitting here looking at at all of your tacts and your credits and things that our lovely producers find about you. They basically hire a private detective and they go like they figure you out from so I didn't know all of this stuff when you were in a teenager. So where did you hide those bodies? That's fascinating. We know now you're supposed to talk about that. I almost just want to cancel this entire thing right now because I'm as to what you guys found out about? No, no, no, um what did you find out? Tell me? What did you what? What What do you guys? See? Let's see. I mean I knew all about the first thing on here is like the adrenaline junkie side to you, and I knew about that. We were just talking about that two days ago. Yeah, I mean, guys, I okay, we want to comp that. I mean, it's weird them because like I I don't see myself like that. Like today, like today I have it's my first day off in a while. So and my wife. I got hurt at work two weeks ago, so my wife has been like, you need to take it easy. You have to take it easy. And I haven't been taking it easy. But like today, I'm just gonna garden a little bit and play on my racing simulator and like maybe work on my race car. So like this is a chill day, so I'm not always an adrenaline junkie. Your race car. Yeah, I blew up the engine in my race car a few weeks ago too, So then that's so annoying. Yes, it's rebuild. I took it out myself. My wife was in Portugal for three days and it was the long weekend and I was like, Okay, nothing's shooting, I'm not working. I'm gonna just hunker down and do it myself. Then we kind of have like a little shop behind the house. Um. We got really lucky when we found this house. Um, this is kind of why we bought it because it has this beautiful garage. Anyway, so I was like, I'm gonna get this done in three days. It ended up taking like a week and a half. But it isn't a rebuild. I took an old engine and put it into the car, a rebuilt engine. Okay. I used to be a mechanic before film. Okay, see that's interesting. So how did you go from before? That was boring? But what you just said this is my This is my poor attempt at a segue. Um, so let's go from that. So you were a mechanic, So how do how does one go from mechanic two, did you get into stunts? Are acting first? And then which how did all of that tell us tell us about usual? I'm gonna oh, man, guys, this is such a big question because it's like this could be the entire this could be the whole thing. So let's back well, I'll back up, I'll back up. I'll back up. So my mom was always into theater and as a kid, she would like usher at all these at all these plays, and she would bring me and I would tag along. I did a lot of improv as a kid. I was always in the theater groups in high school blah blah blah blah blah. But I was also a kind of a delink quick teenager. So then the minute I finished high school, or actually I thought kicked out of my high school the last year essentially, Yeah, so I was I was peddling substances and they were like, look, they're like you haven't And my uncle was the counselor. And then my uncle like my mom's brother, and I was like, look, Joel, he's like, we don't want you here. You don't want to be here. He's like, they're like, we will pay for you to go to a technical school. And learn a trade because you're probably not going to amount to much more than you know, being a plumber, which there's nothing wrong with being a plumber, but they were basically like at the time there was you know, these misconceptions about trades, and they were like, we just need you out of the school. So then I loved cars and I was drag racing cars illegally at night. So I was like, I'll just take a class on mechanics. This is great. So then they kicked me out and I went to the school and that's how I finished high school. I still have a recurring dream that I didn't finish high school to this day, I don't know how I finished. Hi, I don't remember high school anyway. So then I took mechanics and then I ended up a job in a shop and I began a mechanic for six years straight, like full time. Worked with these really tough bikers, and they ended up being like they're like fathers to me. They were at my wedding. Um they basically I consider them like my fathers. These two guys um that ran the shop. But they're like really tough, tough, old school, hard around the edges, kind of guys. Um. But while I was working as a mechanic, I was taking acting classes at night, and I would take my vacations if I booked something, or like if I landed a job, I'd be like, can I please take a week off or whatever? And then I would work at like double shifts till like two in the morning, like I just needed to figure it out. So then that kept going. I was acting, but I was also a mechanic, and then I started bartending at night because I started skydiving at the time and I needed to pay for my sky diving habits. So this is like my red out of high school. I'm working in a shop, I'm acting, I'm taking Scott Having lessons, and I'm bartending at night and burning the candle at both ends. And then um, I was also trading kickboxing and became a semi profighter for a little bit. So well, yeah, so all these things are happening, and eventually I quit mechanics because I go I want to be an actor, and I go to university then get a four year essentially theater degree because my mom and dad were like, you should get an education. I was like, okay, fine, and then I met a girl who was my girlfriend who's not my wife, And after I graduated university, she moved to Toronto. So I was like, I don't have a choice. I have to go to Toronto. So by the time I moved to Toronto, I had been a semi profighter, I'd become a professional skydiver, and I had been a mechanic, so I had all these little things, and I had started base jumping as well, So it kind of was like the perfect melting pot to be a stuntman. But I didn't know and I didn't plan it right. So eventually I moved here and I failed miserably at acting. Like is reply, I think I'm still failing. Highly doubt that, but it happens. That's learning curve. I think. I think that's why we PU. It's so hard. You know, it's one of the few, one of your few careers that you just said, you're a professional app that you can fail and not die. So that's pretty decent. You're allowed to like fail a couple of times of being an actor as a skydi as a professional skydiver, you fail once and that's it. You're done. You're eating burgers through a straw. Yeah, god. Now. So, yeah, I moved here, and I'm skipping a lot of stuff here, like at one point I want to quit mechanics. My car broke down. I went back to the shop. I said, can you guys fix the car? And they were like, oh, you're an actor now, Oh why are you here? And they were like, we're busy. Fix it yourself. I was like, oh my god. So I went in the back fixed it myself and they were like, look, we don't know what kind of they used to call it, like kissing classes. They were like, I don't know what kind of kissing classes you're taking somewhere, but if you're not too busy you mind, maybe you're helping us out in between your classes. So during my entire theater degree, I would leave my classes and go back to the shop that was fifteen minutes away and work on cars. So I was living like a double life, and I'd be dirty and then I go back to the university clean my hands and then you know whatever, and then go take theater classes and then all my electives. So I was just I'm a bit of a workaholic, so I was constantly working anyway. So so I moved here, failed miserably tried to get into stunts. Everyone shut the door on me. They said, don't bother, it's a family thing. And I was like, okay, because there's a lot of nepotism everywhere in film, as we all know. And uh, I said okay. And then I was union at this point, but again failing. And then I tried to get agents, and agents nobody wanted. Nobody wanted me, and I was like okay. So then I just kept sky having, I kept bar attending, and then eventually I got a shitty agent, landed a bit of stuff. And then one woman in an acting class came over to my house because we're running lines or something I don't know, and she went in my bathroom and saw a picture of me base jumping in Norway. She was like, is that you in the in that picture in the bathroom? I was like, yeah, it's me. She's like, why, why aren't you a stunt man? I was like, oh, I was like I tried failed. I don't know. I was like, I have one credit from back home in Winnipeg, and you know, the door has been habitually shut on me. And she's like, let me put you in touch with someone The next day, a woman called me. She goes, My name's Alicia Turner. I was giving your number. Do you want to do a fight for m TV pace twenty bucks? That was the per diem was twenty bucks. I was so broke. I was like, I could use that. Yes, I'll do it. So they broke a bottle. Yeah, and I was so desperate. And then we did this fight and then broke the bottle and then she was like, you should come over to my house and and meet someone. So I met another stunt woman and they were like, we think you should pursue this. And these these two women literally completely changed the course of my life, like literally just proof a completely different direction. And then they said you got it at the time you it was, you know, put it on a CD, send it to the productions. And I took a year to get this demo reel together, and you know, headshots, blah blah blah, and it would send these stats, these massive stacks at the post office to every production. I just kept doing that for months. I think, probably you're and eventually I got a phone call. They're like, hey, come on down, and I was like okay. And then oddly so at the same time, a good agent in town lost a guy that looked like me. He moved to l A or I don't know, and they're like, you want audition for something? And I was like, how do you guys even get my number? It's like, no, I'm not interested. They kept bugging me, and I was like, final audition for this, but I don't want to be an actor. I don't want to act. I hate actors. Like I was just like over it. And then I almost got this this thing. Yeah, and they were like, look, come into the office, give us a year, give us a year, and let's just see what happens. So all of a sudden things started moving. And then now I've been doing this for twelve years. I think I'm almost already. Guys, who was fault? It's got to have and keep too young? Apparently that's the botox. But sure, Wow, I have so many questions because you were just talking NonStop for like eighteen minutes. I'm sorry, I'm just like my origin stories, yourself, my origin stories. Big um, don't let you. This is what we're here for. We're here here you talk. They're sick of us talking. This is all about you. I've missed you. This is how we used to talk to each other on set. People people thought we hated each other. Oh dude, I actually do you guys know we brand into Isaiah like two months ago. No. No. So my friend, one of my best friends, as a stunt coordinator and he coordinates a bunch of stuff and I helped him build stunts and like I can because I was a mechanic, I helped him like rig up stuff and everything. And he called me and he's like, look, I need help on this commercial. I was like, okay, cool, whatever. He's like, it's just a day, pays this much, super good, pay, super chilled. I was like yeah, and he's like it's an old spice commercial. I was like okay cool. And then he's like yeah, apparently you know one of the guys. I was like who and then he's like Isaiah Mustaf. I was like oh, oh yeah, and I was like oh no. I was like oh no. The minute and then he texted me like two days laters, like I heard you're working with me And I was in charge of his safety that day. The minute I walked on set, his professionalism must have dropped a solid for like, they literally walked up to me and they were like, what did you do to the there? Like the minute you walked through the door, he basically they were rolling and he basically just walked out of frame. And it's just like, oh it was. It was ridiculous, so obsessional, but it was so good to see it. It was it was so nice to see him. But yeah, yeah, the banter back and forth on Shadow Hunters was nice. It was arguably sometimes got in the way of work, but hey, I keep working like this to this day. My professionalism hasn't changed in one like one iota. Anything I've done well today broke down six And I mean, guys, we work long hours. We never know when when our schedules are money comes, we make a ship ton of money, then we make no money. You know, things come, things go. It's just like, we might as well have fun while we're while we're going through this journey exactly. Look, if you're going to be you know, jumping off of stuff or covered in fake blood or crying for seventeen hours a day, you might as well have fun while you're doing it. Right. My favorite show I think of you in the entire show is that shot right at the end where we haven't reached this yet in the podcast, but the shot right in the end where you're spoiler and and you're like half werewolf transformation, you had those massive teeth in you can close your mouth and you're just like lying there with your eyes open, but it's just like all teeth in your mouth. That is my favorite shot. I remember that day. I feel like those teeth. I feel like, at like eight am, they were like who's got the teeth? And everyone each other and it's like and they were like and they were like, do we not have teeth? And they were like and I feel like someone ran into Dollar Rama and got like teeth because like I put them in my mouth and I was like, I was like, what the what is this guy's I definitely feel like the drop the ball was dropped on the teeth. Yeah. I once turned up on set and the makeup artist went, oh, you have different this isn't on shadow answers and when you have different colder eyes, and I was like, yeah, yes I do. They were like ah shit and had to fix it that like that day because the character I was playing did not have different colored eyes. But it was like two in the morning and they were just like, oh, well, we funked up pretty badly here, and I learned from that that now I mentioned it in auditions all the time. I was like, by the way, I don't know even noticed, but they don't match. And they're like, oh, yeah, we noticed. Does that happen after not as much anymore they try and match them. Uh, it's well so not anymore. No, this job, I was playing a real person who existed, so with his eye color had to be a very specific thing. Um. The two actually, the two times that the character was based on books and had a particular eye color was Shadow Hunters and was Vampire Academy, and both of those directors were like McGee and Mark Waters were both like, we love your eyes, but there's no way we're going to change them. And I was like, oh, you guys are the best. That's really sweet. Yeah, but the kid, but I didn't say anything about the eye color for shadow Hunters that it yeah, yeah, eyes are yeah. So it would have contact lenses, yeah they're gold. Yeah, but we've you know, dumb so brilliantly found a way to tie it in by making a suggestion of hey, when we do the Rooney Gold Powers, let's make his eyes glow with the rest, and they did so. I how do you you said, you become a professional skydiver? Where does that do you pay? Who pays you to just jump out of an airplane? Yeah? How do you do that? How do you become a professional? How do you monetize it? You? I mean, there's not that many ways of monetizing it. There's really so you the natural progression or the more I should say, the most popular progression is, you know, you become a consummate skydiver, and then you become a coach, which pays it bit. But I would say this, it pays for the the sport, Like you just end up getting to a point where you're no longer hemorrhaging money. It's just kind of paying for itself. And then after that you could become a videographer or a tandem instructor. I see, yeah, and those guys like if you're making a very comfortable living, I'd say, like you're making probably a hundred grand a year to be a tandem instructor and you're working. Yeah, and then if you are really good, you become like a sponsored athlete, and then they usually like read bull, I know, if you read bull guys. They're usually on a few d K. You're not much like these people aren't rich or anything, but you know they get to be flown all over the world and do all this cool ship. So I mean I would take that over anything. Well. I would have thought that the videographers as well, like especially action movies and TV, to have like a qualified like who's the guy who jumped out of the plane with Tom Cruise like sixty times or something silly and didn't the same guy Norman Can't, Yeah, and he's like a hundred years old, and he's he's, what are you doing jumping out of airplanes? Norman? But no, he's bless his heart, No, he's his name is Norman Can't, and he's he's been doing it for a long time. And I mean videographer though usually the people who video just the tandems make a good living too, But someone like normal Can't who's branched into film as well. Um, obviously that's I think the girth of how he makes his living now. But I mean, those are those are essentially the ways you could do it. But like I loved it, like if I yeah, I mean, like anything else, so becomes a job, you know what I mean. But it's a fun job. I think it's like film, Like film is fun. But some days you wake up and you're like, I mean, I don't know about you, guys, but I have days where you know, I'm on set and I'm like around it and I'm like, what else could I do? I do? It's not even that I wake up some days cats like no, I love it. No, No. I think the closest I've ever had is like during the pandemic and I'm like, am I ever going to work again? What's happening? I'm like, should I do something else with my life? I don't know, but but no, the answer is always no. No. I've definitely I've woken up on days and been and looked at the cool sheet and been like, oh, not today, not today. I just you know what I mean. I've had those days, whether it's a person that I'm working with, or like I haven't quite healed from doing my last set of stunts, and then I'm like, oh, this is the one where I get my ask kicked. Okay, cool, all right, it's gonna be a tough day. What set is it on? Oh, it's on the set. With all those loose nails. This is gonna be this is gonna be a day. But always when I get there and I get into it and we start talking to you know, other actors, you guys that does re Bolster, Like, you get there and you're like, this is why I do it, this is fun. I'm enjoying this again. I have these moments like I look around, I'm like fuck. But then at the end of the day, it's like, and I agree with you. You know, you look at the call she and you're like, oh my god, this is the day that dreading or and even the pandemic and even the pandemic I had that cat I did. I was like, fuck, like what am I going to do? But I'd say ninety nine percent of the time, I'm like, this is just what I do. I'm married to this game. That's That's always the advice, you know that I think it's most important to remember in this industry because you have to love it. It's not an easy job. But if you love it and if you get out of bed and the one thing you want to do in the world, it's the most wonderful job. Yeah. I have a lot of like show funk, like I have a lot of I see if they let me do this moment. Like I have these moments where I'm like, as if I'm getting paid, And it's often with car stuff when they give me the keys to the car and they're like just go go go to your stuff, and I'm like you sure, yeah, right, I'm like, okay, alright, right, Um, I shot a car chase. I don't know three weeks ago. I have no concept of time, by the way, because I think it's from being a stunt guy. I don't remember stuff like like time frames, names, stuff. So I think I shot. I think it was three weeks ago. But we shot. We locked off this really windy road in Hamilton's and we had cops everywhere blocking the roads, and I was I had cameras mounted to a motorcycle and I was bombing down. It said like speed limit forty and we're going like a hundred and ten. And you could just tell that the cops were just like like, yeah, the cops were. You could tell that they were. I don't know. If it's jealousy, I don't know, if it's admiration, I don't I can't tell. But they're just like you know that this is illegal and you could never get away with this in any other circumstance, but this one. And we had all these cars swerving and they were following my motorcycle and I was bombing and I was like and it was the middle of the night, like two in the morning, and that's one of those moments where it's just like, man, I was like, it's ridiculous that I get pay. I can't believe they let us do this sort of stuff. Yeah, closing down the street in general is always good fun because you're like, this is a this is an insane thing that we're doing. Like we shot the last show I just did. We shot in the Plaza Hotel in New York, and that we had their whole ballroom, this like super exclusive club that you have to pay thousands of dollars to get in, and we just shut it down for three days. And we walk in every day and be like, there are so many people who are angry that we're here, but like them, we're here making a shot. Fuck you. This is what we do. The beauty of film. You just bully your way into locations. Yeah, well, even in Toronto for some of our finale episodes. We would shut down some of the main streets and downtown Toronto and just run around pretending like we were getting dive found by demons. So annoying. Is so annoying when you're not filming, it's the most annoying thing. They used to shoot a lot of suits. I think the lobby for the law office in suits was the lobby of my building. So I would come down and you know, it's that thing where you're like where you're already late, and then it's everyone else's vote that I woke up late, you know what I mean. So I'm like getting down. I can see like my car is waiting for me, and they're like, can you just hold on for one second? And I'm like a fox's sake, of course, yes, I'll wait. I understand exactly what you're doing in our respect it, but I'm so annoyed. I I've been on suites once and that was one set where I was like, oh my lord. I was like, I'm not working on this set again. I have I'm not going to name any names, but I have never worked on the set. It's almost like the scripts came out and the actors were like, fuck the script like they didn't. It was like it was madness. And and first show that it's so heavy on dialogue, you would think that everyone is so off, but but it was like essentially it was they were like action and the actors like line, like right out of the gates line and you're like and then like two words and they were like line And I was like what why? What is going on? And it's crazy. I got home that day and I told my wife, She's how was your day? I was like, I don't think I'm gonna work on this show again. I was like, that was madness. It was madness. It is one of those examples where it's a show that I worked on and I was like, oh man, I think I would kill myself if I worked on the show full time. Wow, But I'm not gonna name it. I'm not gonna name names. Well, I'm glad you don't feel that way about shadow Hunters. It's like I gotta go. No. Shadow Hunters was you know what shadows Hunters was? I was hired for four episodes and I kept getting strung along longer and longer and longer. So yeah, yeah, and I was just honestly, I was just grateful and I try and even I try and go through my day to day of this and more and more as I grow up, and it's just like I'm grateful that I have. I'm grateful that I am, and all of us, all three of us, like we are the one per centers of film where we get to say, yeah, this is what we do for a living, and it's like we're really lucky. And it's like Shadow Hunters. I was just trying to be grateful about it because I was just like, man, they told me I would only be here for like a month, and then like the writers but texted me and be like you're still You're still in for a little bit longer and yeah, and I was just like this is It was just something that as it went further and further, I knew my time would come to an end. But I was like, man, I was like, I got so much more out of this, and I thought I was then I thought I ever was going to get, you know, exposure, the fans, everything. So I was just like, if the ride ends tomorrow, I'm cool. I'm fine. Oh we're glad you're on the road. How did you How did you get involved in Shadow Hunton's what was your how did your journey stopped? Uh that summer or whenever it was spring, summer, whatever it was. I was auditioning a lot, but I was like auditioning callback callback nothing, auditioning callback callback nothing. It was weird and it and Shadow Hunters came up and I gied for like three roles. I auditioned for Aleric Hang hang porn, so one of the characters, and then what did Meliorn? Which is funny to even think of, very different, It would have been a very different John. You didn't even pretend like you're like now, yeah, exactly like you can't ye, no even yeah, like think of it for a second. I mean, let no one other than Jade as Meliorn. That's just full sty He's perfect, But no one else is Alaric. But you, I honestly could not see anyone else playing the role any other way. I mean, truly, stop it, truly stop it. I mean it. I'm not gonna stop blowing smoke of my never being so sweet, but thank you. Um so, I auditioned for Aleric and I thought it had gone horribly and you know what, I was in a rush. I think my wife and I had to go We're going to Ikea and we're trying to like beat the clock or something that we needed to get to Ikea. And like she came with me to the audition. I like literally parked my car through the hazards and I was like, I'll be back in two minutes, and I ran up the stairs instead of taking the elevator. So when I got to the audition room, I was like like, I was like and like, you know, when you're like elevated like that, it's hard to bring yourself back down. And I was like, and there, and you know, sometimes they're like, oh, Joe, we'll be with you in five minutes. I got there and they're like, gives you right now, and I was like, oh fuck. And like I got in the room and I was just like oh. And I was like not grounded, not ready, sweating, breathing heavy, and it was over before I knew it. And I walked out of that audition. I was like, waste time now and then um, and then they come back for a call back. Yeah, and I was like, oh, strange. And then at the call back, the reader she's from Winnipeg. I'm from Winnipegan She's like, are you from Winnipeg. I was like I am, and she was like, I'm from Winnipeg. So then we started chatting and totally threw me off. So we started trying for like ten minutes, and then by the time that it was time for me to the audition, I couldn't remember any of my lines. I was just like because we just she politely threw me off anyway, So that was my call back. So then at this point I'm like, whatever it is, what it is, It's all good. And then like two months later, I got a call from my agent and they really like you. They think they want you, but they're a little bit concerned about the stunt stuff. And I was like, oh my god, has a here we go. And that seems to be the case until about like two years ago. Everyone goes, oh, we like you, Joel, but your stunts because like you guys, if you look on my IMDb, that's hard to hide all those credits. It's a long threat all right in front of me. Is that? Why is that a concern? Then? For folks is case you get her on another job, in case you get hurt on another job up and there's a stigma with stunt people that they can't act. M and I mean interesting, not true. There's some seriously good true in this true in Joe's case obviously, but in the rest of the time, most stunt people are poor no actors. They're por no actors. You know, like you give them one line, like you know, she went that way, and they're just like they're stiff, and they're like, she went that way, Like they're so stiff, and there's nothing There is a very sage choice of words when you're describing porn actors. But that's stiff and stiff. Um, you'd be less stiff because that's the issue we're having and keep having a zoom out so they're so erecked. Um. But yeah, I think the concerns most stunt guys can't act, they can't yeah. And and honestly, I think because I do both and I really truly flip flop now like I really do Um, I think it's because acting you're using left brain, and stunts you're on your using your right brain, where I really truly believe that interesting. You're trying to be creative, you're trying to go with the flow, you're trying to just be in the moment. With acting and stunts, you can't do that. You have to pay attention, you have to protect people yourself. You have to hit the mark sometimes, like it's the difference. I just did a twenty ratchet on a or Arnold Schwartzenegger series last week with someone there's an explosion. I was doubling Gabrielle Luna, the guy who played T three in The Last Terminator. I've been doubling the most season or all summer, and we both had to tention these lines. And if we both intention the line, the other person would get the tension and we get thrown like forty ft into a wall and essentially you could kill them, repaaralyze them, right, So there's a lot of trust. So again, you have to hit your marks. You have to be perfect. So that's kind of my my reasoning and my me trying to kind of justify with stunt people because I have a big heart forstential um and actress too. But I mean, I think that's why stunt guys and stunt women can't after you will because they can't. It's try and do a scene and and and play a sport at the same time you're gonna either not see your lines properly, You're gonna totally stuck at the sport, right. But anyway, I think that's the concern. They go, oh, he's a stunt guy, he's not an actor. So they went back and forth a lot, which the network was going to act, forth, back and forth, and uh, that was the big concern. But at the same time, I can't change that. You know, if you're concern is that I'm a stunt person, I don't know what to tell you, you know what I mean, and I'm not I'm not going to change. But it's interesting that they brought it up like after. It's interesting that conversation happens after you've been in the room, Like I would understand it more from a costume director. He's like, are you willing to see this person, and like, we're concerned about the stunt stuff, Like that's the concern. We have full disclosure. But they saw you when you proved yourself twice, and then they were like, now we're concerned about the sun stuff. And you're like, well, you saw him do the acting section already happening back for it, so what's the issue? You know, it happens a lot or they go, oh, well, I don't know what it is, but it's it's a concern. But lately what happens is there's more of a push now for actors to do their own action, right, So, and I think it looks great when actors being an action. I think it's I think it's it's undeniably better when we can get an actress or an actor to do a good chunk of their fight. Is that coming through a laughing on that hid just stops now that that came through, it was wonderful. But but speaking of of all of that, you know, when you first get I mean, your stunt experience turned out to be a huge advantage on shadow Unchers. In the end, it did like they would always put me and they wanted me to do more on shadow Hunters. But he just got diluted, as things do occasionally or often. But um, yeah, like they wanted me to do do some driving. I did it. They wanted me to do this and did it. I did it. And the stunt coordinator was like, look, if if we had to double him, I would have hired him. So it has to be him because if we get a stunt double, the stunt double will most likely be less experienced in Trull, which is kind of a weird thing to say, right, but it did. It was an advantage on shadow Hunters, and it's starting to be an advantage now, like people are starting to go, oh, you can do both. You can't. But it's taken the better part of a decade, you know what I mean for people to recognize that, you know, it's an uphill battle still though. Sure, we'll tell us a little bit more about when you first found out about all and when you first started looking into the character. How much did you know? Did you know he was a werewolf? Did you know he was what did you know? And how how was that process for your funny Okay, you're gonna be a cop. Oh and by the way, you're also a wearawolf. I remember looking into it and going, oh, oh, I like this guy because I played him as he's just not a happy human. He's grumpy. He's so grumpy, so grumpy, never happy, he never smiles. And I was like, oh, this is nice. I was like, I could I could get into this. So I remember that was my initial thing and and I leaned into that more than anything because I was just like I just I like, I'm a fairly happy person. I am, And like I said, as I get older, I try and see trying to be more grateful. I try and see more. I try. I don't get mad. I rarely get mad, if ever, anymore. And even back then I was like that, just not as much as now. So to get a character like that, you just go, oh, I could lean into something that I don't get to lean into in real life, you know what I mean. So so that was my first initial thought of him. And then also my biggest thing was thinking about the dynamic, because I remember finding out that it was Isaiah and and wondering what the dynamic would be with him, and that far exceeded my expectations by a million um. And I also remember wondering if I would ever transform into a werewolf and if it would look cheesy. That was the big thing. And I remember being like, man, if that it not makes me look cheesy, because I don't want to look cheesy. I was like, but that was it. And if you look up Aleric, there isn't much about him like you guys. Obviously you guys had massive roles, and there's so much. There's so much information. But for Alaric, I was almost given carte blanche because it was like, there isn't that much. So there was no one to go, oh, you should be more true to this than that, or blood, or you're not being true to this than that. So I was giving free rains and no one said anything to me. So I was like, perfect, what did you do? You remember what your breakdown said? I just tried to look for mine because I can't remember what it said at all, Like your initial that's interesting, I think I do. I think it said second in command of the wolf Pack. Yeah, I think that's like the first thing it said. But so was that exciting for you or was that sort of a daunting for you to be coming to the series that has so many characters that are defined and you sort of were given nothing and everything simultaneously. I think it was at the time because how long ago was this? And I was trying to think about this. This was so we started shooting in Was that seven years ago? Yeah? Oh no, it's almost eight years ago. Yeah, it was April that we started shooting. How do how do we all look the same? We have an age? What is going on? Wait? That was eight years ago. Oh my lord. Okay, so I asked you that because it's hard to think back on that now about whether it was daunting. But and I'll be truthful, I think it was daunting because at the time, I mean, think of you as a performer eight years ago. For me personally, eight years ago, I was a different person. So I think it was a teen were your nineteen Oh my lord, I was nineteen nine when we shot. So now I'm old. You are old. I can't believe it. Nineteen Yeah, I'm older now than Dom was when he started the show. I'm this year, I'll be as old as Matt was when he started the show. Wow, there's a bath for you. But to go back, I think it was daunting because at the time I hadn't done recurring to me that size before, so I was just like, who are the people I'm working with? How big is the show? And it was just like looking at the looking at everybody's resumes, looking at how big the show was, looking at um, just like how many fans there were. It was just like, holy sh it, like this is make This isn't a huge part, but it's still big enough that I mean, look, eight years later, we're still talking about it, right, So it's like it was big enough, and I knew it was big enough that it would impact me in some way. So I didn't know how to approach it at first. And I remember telling that to Isaiah a little bit, and and I remember being like, how do you, like, I didn't know, how do you play a character arc? How do you how do you do this? How do you do that? Like? Like what? And he really some of the stuff that he told me, I still use these techniques to this day, you know what I mean. So I'd say it was daunting. Now, Isaiah was so instrumental to all of us. I think, you know a lot of us, it was our first I mean, you know, Dolmina had done something for obviously Harry was coming off of Glee, and but I think this for a lot of us was our first major foray into the huge responsibility and the huge workload that this was in the best way, but it was. Isaiah was such a gift in that I just remember watching him over the years and the way his professionalism and the way he even though and then just the way he handled himself on set, the way he handled situations. I mean between you know, him and Harry. They taught me so much about just the mechanics of what it is that weak that's just right like and that's exactly. It's just like you. You kind of get into these jobs and you go, Okay, I got the job, and then you kind of take a pause and you're like, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. And it's just like, I don't know about you guys, but like I've gotten imposter syndrome. I don't get it as much anymore, but I still do get it. I still get these things where I'm like, what am I doing here? And I'm just and and I said definitely, Like I remember him saying, you don't need to go to work every day or whatever thinking about like the character arc. He's like, it's silly. He's like, just show up and do the job that day, do the scene truthfully that day. And he's like, let the editors cut it, cut it, and they will create that art. He's like, as long as you do every scene how it's supposed to be, so I don't even think about the art. And I just did a feature for seven weeks in February where I was one of the leads and it's a huge character arc, and it's like and again I read the script back and forth, and then on the day, you can't possibly be thinking about that. It's just too burdensome. It's too much to think of to go is this aligned with one? Especially with movies, very often it's like I know how this ends, and I know what I do at the end, and that doesn't but that hasn't happened yet. That doesn't elicit what's happening in scene twelve, Like twelve, I'm a different person because I haven't gone through this journey yet, right, And you go, well, seeing twelve, Mary, I'm doing seeing twelve today. Well this Mary well was seen like and then it's like you just think about that. Um no, you can't go there. And honestly, that was some of the best advice that he gave me. And then he also had said, if you have any ideas and you want to try ship, he said, do a drink blocking And then he that day he literally pointed at actors and said look at everyone, to look around. You said, everyone's just sucking around. They're on their phones. And he was like, but he's like, you can suck around he's like, you're gonna have fun. Keep working around. He's like, because I love that. But he's like, blocking, isn't that time when you're supposed to just you know, dick around and whatever. He's like, a lot of people think the blocking is just to kind of hit the marks, get the crew to come out and figure out the lighting to that. But he's like, it's really your time to experiment and try something and then and then the director will usually comes blocking because it's a crew, I guess because it's like a crew, Like they block for the crew. Um, you know that is very like mark heavy and whatever stepped through. But like I've always treated that, that's like a rehearsal. That's rehearsal time because also you don't know what your partners come in with either, Like your scene partners come in with different ideas, they've read the script through a different lens. You don't know what's going to happen there, and you it's that time to have those conversations, um, a bit of give and take and figure that stuff out. You Also, very often we would walk into sets that we didn't know, so they would be described to us. We were like, oh, there's a whole bunch of different ship in here that like, actually, I think I would be over at this and in my head I have me over at this thing or whatever it is, you know. Um, So yeah, that rehearsal time, it is fundamental. Well, you always there's certain things. Once you're you can read a scene and you can do your prep and you can do your work and figure it out. Once you're in the space with everyone else, inevitably something will change and you'll find something else, or a new beat or a new color, or some something will have some magic will happen. But if you don't properly give your time and energy to that rehearsal, you're never going to find that magic. And I completely agree, and he had really and I remember she pointed to people and people were on their phones dicking around, and he's like, look, you can try something new, and if the director doesn't like it, they'll say that's a good idea. But I was thinking of this, and and he's like, or they're just gonna be like, that's a stupid idea. I was thinking this, And to this day I still kind of do it like that. I still very I'm not I should I very much do it like that, and it's a gamble. Sometimes the directors like that was awesome. Not what I was thinking, but that was awesome, Or sometimes they're like, oh yeah, totally, let's do it like that. But it's like, those are the things I didn't know, and those are the things that he taught me, and those are the things that made it less daunting his time with But it's a yeah, it's learning man as well. Like that that, especially in that rehearsal process. I had one once I was doing a movie Holy Ship. This is the most embarrassing thing probably career wise, it's ever happened to me. And it was we were doing the rehearsal when I did something I kind of remember what it was, and everyone, like the entire crew we won, laughed because they thought I was joking. They thought I was working around and I was so embarrassed because I was like, that was that was just what I was going to do. That was like, that was like a serious choice on my part. Had to immediately, Like I didn't obviously say that. I was just in my head. I was like, well, I can't do it that way. To fix this immediately, it's dreadful. You that's you learn, and you'd like figure things out with different sets and different crews and just career wise, like that was bad choice. We're gonna have too. I'm glad that didn't make it to camera because that would have been terrible. Yeah, well you made a choice. That's the important I made a choice, and you you redirected. But talking about learning things, you know, you and Isaiah during season one got to establish the werewolves and what they are and their their pack and sort of that energy and that camaraderie than the pack that you have. Did you did you feel that or was that something it just sort of happened or what tell us about that? Because you you are the werewolf master of a few. It wasn't planned, but it was. I definitely felt it without a doubt, and and I largely attribute that to because like he he kind of took people, and he took me in, you know what I mean, and he showed me the ropes like he he immediately right off the start established a relationship. Like I think within two days of being on that show, I get a text message from him. I'm like, how did discussion whatever? And he's like, let's hang out, let's do that and it's just like because he's Isaah and he's such a nice guy. And like I said, I saw him of however long that commercial was a few weeks ago, and like he literally he literally was like are you ever in l A? And I was like yeah. I was like, I'm how was in l A? And I go to l A to train like cars stuff and my wife and I almost moved there actually before COVID. But I was like, yeah, I was in l A, you know, a few months ago. And he genuinely took offense that I didn't let him know that I was there. And I was like, stop it. I was like, you're just saying that, Like you're just being one of those actors. We've all worked on film sets, we've all been on movies and TV shows or everyone's like let's hag out forever, let's be best friends forever, and then picture rap songs and everyone's like goodbye, and then you never see the same and and I mean, and it's not to be jaded if we work in the circus, right, this is simply what it is. And but he genuinely was like no, He's like, why didn't you call me? I was like, you're just saying that. I was like, you don't need to say that, and he was like, no, no, no, He's like and then and I knew he was at kidding because he was like, no, no, He's like, I got a call from this person and this person, and you think I picked up for them. He's like, ah, He's like, he's like, but if you call me, I will pick up. And he was genuinely upset. And I said, look, next time i'm there, I promise I'll come over and we'll have dinner. And he's like, he's like you better. He's like please, And and anyway to go back to that, this is the wolf Pack relationship is hard to percent him because he essentially he's the one who created that. And even now to this day. That's another thing, like when I go on a set, like if I'm a leader, if I'm showing up as a guest story, even if I'm there as part of a core team for stunt people, like on a stunt team, it's like that's a big part of your job if you're in one of these positions, whether it be lead or on a core team or even showing up as a guest. So it's like you gotta show up, not just to act, but you've got to show up to help strengthen everyone, Like you don't want to show up and everyone goes, oh my god, Tom is back, Like, oh my god, where does he just needed to use as the example that seems very unfair, But whatever's wine, we'll pay by well, I just we do this. We just go, hey, so the producer's now, can we just get the scissors out? We'll just cut that but out because fuck him, just get rid of that. No, I'm kidding to both, but you know what I mean. Like you, it's it's your duty. It's your duty to show up at work every day. And and we all have bad days, we all have days that are harder, but it's like it's kind of your duty to show up and and not only act, but like you have to hold yourself up to that standard of like, hey guys, let's let's do this together. Let's get through this together, let's have some laughs. And he's the one who taught me that, So I definitely felt that wolf pack thing, but that is all attributed to him. That it's all him, Like he showed me how to be like that, and I still carry that forward. You had quite the journey with us. Tell us about your is there's anything that sticks out, like, is there a day on set that is exemplary of what Chadow Undress was to you, or your last day on set, or or you know, other than the werewolf teeth debacle, the forgotten teeth, the forgotten teeth that they forgot to buy. Um, you know it's true, guys, they didn't even fit in my mouth. Um the put them in. What the hell is this? Um? Oh that's my tenant, she's saying, hi, hi, hi, um. We have a tenant inner basement. They're lovely, they're like family. I tell them that they're not allowed to move, and if they ever try and move, I'll keep them hostage and basically keeping them hostage by not raising their rent. This is sounding a lot less like a tenant and a lot more like a prisoner. I heard basement and then the threats. And maybe this is when we tell our producers to cut this out. Yeah, snippy, snippey, let's get that. Or maybe we shouldn't. Maybe we should leave it out there because someone's missing at I don't know, man, I don't know. We have a separate apartment like a separate engine is completely separate unit that goes downstairs. But these they're like, I don't want to raise their rent because if they left, I don't know what I would do. They're like family, we love them anyway. Um, oh that's really sweet. Yeah, And my wife and I tell them like, if you guys get married and we're not invited to the wedding, we're going to crash the wedding. He's just spectacle. Um anyway, Um, what was I saying before? We're talking about my prisoners moments that stick out honestly, and I know this might sound silly, but when I think back on Shadow Hunters, I think that on being at base camp and bantering with people, those are my fondest moments, Like just especially the days where everybody was there, like like you know what I mean, Like the whole cast was there and you were like, oh, you're just it's like being it felt like being in university or high school. You're just walking through the hallway and you're like, oh hey, oh hey, oh hey, And it was there was just there was an infectious energy about it. Everyone was so happy to be there, and like you said, some of some of us myself included. These were bigger, newer jobs for us, so everyone was just eager to do a good job. And I mean I still see that on set now, but it's just everyone was a bit younger, everyone was eager, and it's just like it was just a good vibe. So my favorite, my my fondest memories are of being at base camp in all the trailers and just hanging out. It's so rare, even particularly now post pandemic, that everyone gets to be in the same space and just hanging out with your guard down, just chilling out and bonding if on set and that's you know, that's what Shadow Undrews was. And I think you saw that chemistry on screen between all of us cast food and then the rest. It is so good and honestly like, yeah, I've had a good scene and there was good stuff. But when I think of a job, I really like it's the relationships that you have with people. That's what makes you have agree And I mean, and that's what you think back or at least person that's what I think back on and go, oh that time that day was really fun because f Y and Z, I'm not like I killed it during that scene. People are gonna love it, you know what I mean? Like, it's not I don't. I don't think like that. I mean that's what we thought about you, like, oh, man, Joel is so great. I can remember days on set where we would look around and be like, wait, Joel hasn't been here in a long time. Where is Joel? And we go to the writers and in the eighties were like, is Joel coming back? When is Joel come? When? You guys the reason why I kept coming back? Maybe I never said that one time, he said, noticing the time. In fact, a lot of the opposite. When you were on set, I was like, hey, can we just are we going to kill him anytime? Put some big teeth in and just end it. That would be great. Don still your teeth and hit them in his trailer. That's why they went and the teeth, they said. They were like, we don't know how to kill him. I was like, give me eight dollars and twenty minutes I'll figure out. Oh yeah, yeah it was. And it's crazy to think it was eight years ago. Mind bending cat. When you said that, I didn't realize it was that long ago. Yeah, I mean you're twenty six. I'm thirty nine, don what are you now? Two? Yeah? Oh my god, you hit your ties anymore? When you hit your thirties, where you like, I feel old? Dir like? Are your hangovers? Were? Oh my god, dude, the first hangover of my thirties. I never heard anything like it, and I didn't like. I went out and celebrated, but I didn't drink any more then I had done previously. But it was I don't know if it was a mental thing or like your body actually goes through a physical change that night. But I woke up that day and I was like, oh, yeah, this is the worst I've ever heard my entire life. Maybe cumulatively, maybe if you put together all of the hangovers from the rest of my life, this is what this feels like. It's absolutely the worst I've ever felt. And I came out. I was with my best friend that I came out, and I was just like sudden, like my skin was hanging off my face and I was just like, oh god, and he went, yeah, yeah, welcome to your theories. This is exactly what it feels like. Welcome, Welcome to your thirties. I haven't been drinking much in the last two weeks. Um because I had a concussion from a show two weeks ago. Yeah, you're getting right now, Like this morning when I woke up at six am, thinking that the podcast is at six am. I went back to bed and my wife said, she said, that was concussion, Joe, that's why you funked up. And I was like, yeah, So you guys are getting like the water down version of me right now, because I thought you weren't supposed to sleep when you had a concussion. The title please, but I mean the concussion was too totally after concussion seventeen. You're like, listen, this is just a we don't want I honestly, I've had a Yeah I've had honestly, don probably close to seventeen. I bet you've had that many. Yeah, that is not good for you. You know how people say you get like four freebies. That is not the case at all. It's all very damaging. Tell us about this movie that you have coming up. We're we're so excited to hear about. Where can we see it? What's going on? Tell us? Tell us tell us everything. Uh, long story short, A stunt guy who's a good friend of mine. His friend wrote a script and then this is a low budget future like they got a million dollars to shoot this. It was a script that was written by a friend and then it was passed on to a guy who's written script for Netflix. And seven years later, this polished script came out and they got funding. They said no, they got funding, they said no, and then finally they said, you know what, We'll just pay for half the movie and then through tax credits and whatever, we'll get the rest of the money. So then they sent me the script. I read it and he called me. He said, did you read it? I said, I read it. He said, what did you think? I said, this interesting script. I really like it, and this one character. I really like this this one character. He said, oh, that's interesting, because we'd actually like you to read for that character. I said, oh, okay, So I read for it. I got it, the producers everybody liked me, and we shot it. UM. So basically what it's about is this American guy works for a mining company and they're stationed in Russia and they're doing some illegal activities. UM. The company unbeknounced to all the workers and the the offices get raided and most of the employees get thrown into these Russian gulags. Um. So he's a prisoner in this Russian bulag. And then he meets these two other Americans in the gulag, these two soldiers, and they're like, we're getting out of here. We've been we've been here for years. We're planning to get out. We need to we'll take you. Do you want to escape with us? And he's like sure. Um. And then and I'm really skipping a lot of steps here, but uh. And then they planned their escape and they leave. Cut to a few days later. Um, they're walking through the forest and they're trying to make their way to the to the finished border, um, to seek asylum. Um. They run into these two Russian prisoners, and the Russian prisoners go, thanks for letting us out, blah blah blah. Let's all work together and make our way to the border. And this one American, the initial guy, he isn't he isn't too bright. But the Russians go, you know that you're only they only brought you along because if they run out of food, they'll probably he's a heavier scent man. And this is what they used to do. Apparently, apparently this is very it's based on true stories and real accounts. In World War One world War two, they used to take a batter larger person when they would escape camps, prisoner of war camps, and they would actually eat them if they ran out of supplies. And that person was called Yeah, it's easy. That person was called the walking supply. Um. And this is this movie is called Walking Supply. Um. So this guy finds out that he is in fact the walking supply and he then tries to escape from the Americans in the woods and they hunt them down, and the movie is them. There's all of this that I've spoken about leading up to this, and then him trying to escape the Americans and it was shot. Can we see it? When? Can we see it? I think there. I got a rough cut of it a few days ago in classic. I didn't watch it. Um. And then um, they've got they already have people that are interested in buying it, so we'll see what happens. Um. It's a fairly dark movie. And uh, it was shot and I think we shot it in six weeks in Calgary, Northern Ontario, like all over the place. And it was six weeks of exteriors, rain or shy, not one single interior shot and it was crazy auditions like minus forty five, minus ten, minus twenty rain, snow mud. It was insane. So yeah, I shot that in February March, and then the minute I finished that, I think I had a week off. And then since then, I've been running about five shows at once. So I've been doubling the lead bad guy on an untitled um shorts Arnold Schwartzenegger project, his first TV series that he's ever done, so my last day is actually tomorrow, and then doing stunt driving on a Keith Or Sutherland show on and off all summer, and I've been stunt coordinating on another show for for people. I've been shooting a lot of car commercials, like I think last thank You, I think last two weeks ago. Last week I did six shows in four days, like I wrapped on a show and then went on another show that night. So I've been I'm very I mean, I don't really use I don't like using this sort of but I'm blast, I'm grateful, I'm really busy. I'm really I'm really lucky. And then in terms of acting, I actually have two auditions that I have to hand in the minutem off the off this call with you guys. But I've gotten to a point where I've become very picky with acting, which is kind of nice. I have that luxury. You know, I don't need to do Pee Wee's Playhouse season two, Um, because I need the money. I can say no, I don't. I don't want to do this. I don't need to do you know, Christmas Love in Dubai, you know, volume four. I'm just making them titles as that going on here because I don't. I don't need it, so I can. I've become very picky and because of that, it's almost made me more sought after, which is weird. It's the weirdest thing. So now I only audition for the stuff I want, and um, because I'm lucky enough that I have a full career and stunts and stunt driving and that's it. So yeah, now I'm auditioning for a thing called the Valiant One. It's a project for eight weeks of Vancouver and I read the script. Any Oh, this is a great fit. I'll do it. So, I mean, I'm in a very very good position and I'm just so I'm just grateful every day. I'm like, man, I don't know how it got to this. I don't know how this happened, but I'll just keep I'll keep riding it until I'll keep riding this wagon until the wheels come off. Amazing. Buddy, Well, listen, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you again. Go down memory lane. Thanks for having me guys. I mean, it's I'm glad to see you guys are both well. You're also not. I mean, truly, it's been so wonderful to have you on the show, and we're so proud of you and everything that you're doing. Likewise, we miss you. I feel like I didn't ask you guys enough questions, so you're not here to ask us question not about us, man, Honestly, we're like halfway through. People are going to be so sick of us talking that having you talk lunacy for an hour is a nice reprieve from us being super dup lunacy with lots of wisdom. I'm happy you're both well and you guys both look good. Thanks, ma'am. Pete. Return to the Shadows hosted an executive produced by me Dominic Sherwood and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producers Lingley. Our senior producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our producer is Hannah Harris and Kristin Familia, and our intern is Sam Cats. Original music by Alex Kinsey, performed by Alex Kinsey and Katherine McNamara