What is up, Runner Gang, Welcome back to Post run High Today, I'm sitting down with Tim Gunn. You may know him as the impeccably dressed mentor from Project Runway. He was always in a suit, always giving the most thoughtful critiques and if you're not familiar with Project Runway, the show first aired in two thousand and four, right in the golden era of reality TV, and it quickly became a hit. The show followed aspiring designers competing in high pressure challenges to create innovative fashion pieces, all under extreme time constraints, and Tim he was the heart of the show and the mentor guiding them through it all. But Tim's story goes way beyond TV, and in this episode, we go all the way back to his childhood, growing up with a father in the FBI, his struggles finding his path, and how he ended up in the fashion world despite never planning on it. We dive into his years as a teacher, how he shaped his approach to mentorship, and what really happened behind the scenes of Project Runway. There were serious doubts in the beginning of the show and people did not think it would work, and Tim never even imagined being on camera, which was so hard to imagine because he was the heart of the show. This conversation is packed with lessons on trusting the process, finding your voice, and taking risks. And guys, if you're enjoying Post Run High, please make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel at Kate max to watch our full video episodes and also follow me across socials because I'll be keeping you guys up to date on what's to come on all of the shows we've got going on. All right, let's get into our episode. It's Tim, What is up? Guys, Welcome back to Post Run High. I'm sitting here today with the iconic and legendary Tim Gun.

What is up, Runner Gang, Welcome back to Post run High Today, I'm sitting down with Tim Gunn. You may know him as the impeccably dressed mentor from Project Runway. He was always in a suit, always giving the most thoughtful critiques and if you're not familiar with Project Runway, the show first aired in two thousand and four, right in the golden era of reality TV, and it quickly became a hit. The show followed aspiring designers competing in high pressure challenges to create innovative fashion pieces, all under extreme time constraints, and Tim he was the heart of the show and the mentor guiding them through it all. But Tim's story goes way beyond TV, and in this episode, we go all the way back to his childhood, growing up with a father in the FBI, his struggles finding his path, and how he ended up in the fashion world despite never planning on it. We dive into his years as a teacher, how he shaped his approach to mentorship, and what really happened behind the scenes of Project Runway. There were serious doubts in the beginning of the show and people did not think it would work, and Tim never even imagined being on camera, which was so hard to imagine because he was the heart of the show. This conversation is packed with lessons on trusting the process, finding your voice, and taking risks. And guys, if you're enjoying Post Run High, please make sure you subscribe to my YouTube channel at Kate max to watch our full video episodes and also follow me across socials because I'll be keeping you guys up to date on what's to come on all of the shows we've got going on. All right, let's get into our episode. It's Tim, What is up? Guys, Welcome back to Post Run High. I'm sitting here today with the iconic and legendary Tim Gun.

You flatter me, good Evans. What an introduction. Thank you, Tim.

You flatter me, good Evans. What an introduction. Thank you, Tim.

I'm seriously so excited to have you on the show today. I feel like I grew up knowing who you are and watching you. And I alluded to this earlier when we were doing our walk, but I actually was considering Parsons for a school, like very closely. Oh so, it's so cool to be able to sit down with you and just know how much of an impact you had on Parsons as a university.

I'm seriously so excited to have you on the show today. I feel like I grew up knowing who you are and watching you. And I alluded to this earlier when we were doing our walk, but I actually was considering Parsons for a school, like very closely. Oh so, it's so cool to be able to sit down with you and just know how much of an impact you had on Parsons as a university.

Well, thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here and honored to be here, and I look forward to a wonderful conversation here.

Well, thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here and honored to be here, and I look forward to a wonderful conversation here.

The premise of post ran Hig is we always do some sort of activity before the sit down interview. You and I started out by doing a walk in Brooklyn. So first I just want to ask, is fitness a big part of your life? Has it been for years?

The premise of post ran Hig is we always do some sort of activity before the sit down interview. You and I started out by doing a walk in Brooklyn. So first I just want to ask, is fitness a big part of your life? Has it been for years?

Well? I have to say I do feel grounded through a movement, but for me it's something fairly recent. Nine years ago, I met this dynamic individual named Tim Morehouse. He's a three time Olympian and a silver medalist in fencing saber fencing, and he said he had just opened a fencing club. And I asked, what's a fencing club? I had no idea place ship fence and have a drink. He said, it's on ninety first Street. I said, ninety first Street. I live on ninetieth. It's directly behind my apartment building. So I went over to Sam and I was really enraptured with the activity. So at age six sixty two, I took up fencing.

Well? I have to say I do feel grounded through a movement, but for me it's something fairly recent. Nine years ago, I met this dynamic individual named Tim Morehouse. He's a three time Olympian and a silver medalist in fencing saber fencing, and he said he had just opened a fencing club. And I asked, what's a fencing club? I had no idea place ship fence and have a drink. He said, it's on ninety first Street. I said, ninety first Street. I live on ninetieth. It's directly behind my apartment building. So I went over to Sam and I was really enraptured with the activity. So at age six sixty two, I took up fencing.

I find that so interesting because I was saying I just did an interview with Chris Cuomo last week and we're in the edit right now, editing our conversation, and he talked a lot about getting into self defense and sparring at a later age in life, and I find it fascinating. And I have brothers that love jiu jitsu, the kind of combat type of workouts like the fighting people love. But fencing is an interesting one. I haven't heard that one before.

I find that so interesting because I was saying I just did an interview with Chris Cuomo last week and we're in the edit right now, editing our conversation, and he talked a lot about getting into self defense and sparring at a later age in life, and I find it fascinating. And I have brothers that love jiu jitsu, the kind of combat type of workouts like the fighting people love. But fencing is an interesting one. I haven't heard that one before.

Well, it's a fascinating sport with a long, long history. It originated in France, and of course it came out of dueling. But with fencing, you're dad's supposed to harm the other person. You'll get penalized.

Well, it's a fascinating sport with a long, long history. It originated in France, and of course it came out of dueling. But with fencing, you're dad's supposed to harm the other person. You'll get penalized.

Although sometimes it hurts.

Although sometimes it hurts.

Oh well sometimes yes, but then you've done something wrong. And I didn't know I would fall in love with it, and I did. And Tim Morehouse said to me, you know, we really need to work on making you stronger. So he introduced me to a trainer, Jason, and I've been working with him for eight years now and we work out twice a week. So I've become a bit of a fitness nut. But I will say this, I'm going to contradict you about the post workout high. I need a post workout nap, Okay, not a high.

Oh well sometimes yes, but then you've done something wrong. And I didn't know I would fall in love with it, and I did. And Tim Morehouse said to me, you know, we really need to work on making you stronger. So he introduced me to a trainer, Jason, and I've been working with him for eight years now and we work out twice a week. So I've become a bit of a fitness nut. But I will say this, I'm going to contradict you about the post workout high. I need a post workout nap, Okay, not a high.

No, And I do have to say, like it depends on what the workout is. If I'm doing some sort of like a lifting workout or a hit workout, I'm the same way. I'm napping afterwards because I rarely move my body like that. But after run or a walk, I feel like it's just something I've been doing for so many years, and I feel like a walk is probably the most common thing, Like you do feel that rush of endorphins and you feel kind of this sense of accomplishment.

No, And I do have to say, like it depends on what the workout is. If I'm doing some sort of like a lifting workout or a hit workout, I'm the same way. I'm napping afterwards because I rarely move my body like that. But after run or a walk, I feel like it's just something I've been doing for so many years, and I feel like a walk is probably the most common thing, Like you do feel that rush of endorphins and you feel kind of this sense of accomplishment.

Well, in fact, after my fitness training, I walked for about an hour because it cools me down and reinvigorates me. And I agree, yeah, great, yeah.

Well, in fact, after my fitness training, I walked for about an hour because it cools me down and reinvigorates me. And I agree, yeah, great, yeah.

All right, well let's get into it. Because I as I was doing my research on you and learning all about you, I really found like the trajector of your life to be so interesting. And what I love to do in my interviews is just get to know somebody from the ground up. You grew up in Washington, d C.

All right, well let's get into it. Because I as I was doing my research on you and learning all about you, I really found like the trajector of your life to be so interesting. And what I love to do in my interviews is just get to know somebody from the ground up. You grew up in Washington, d C.

I did. My father was an FBI agent, and he was a very talented writer, and I should say he spent his first was it one year or two years in the field office in Newark, New Jersey, and then he was transferred to headquarters, and somehow Jaeggar Hoover, who was the director then and he was the director through five presidents, learned of Dad's talented writing and he ended up being Hoover's ghost writer. He wrote all of his book, his correspondence, his speeches, and he traveled with him.

I did. My father was an FBI agent, and he was a very talented writer, and I should say he spent his first was it one year or two years in the field office in Newark, New Jersey, and then he was transferred to headquarters, and somehow Jaeggar Hoover, who was the director then and he was the director through five presidents, learned of Dad's talented writing and he ended up being Hoover's ghost writer. He wrote all of his book, his correspondence, his speeches, and he traveled with him.

You know what, it actually makes a lot of sense. And I think that's a really interesting point because it's like when you think about somebody that's in the FBI or working a job in politics or in the government, or even like in the military, which I kind of associate like the FBI to be like a little of a simpler mentality. It's like you don't necessarily think of, oh, this person might actually be very creative and a good writer. But it makes sense that you had those kind of traits in your family, right, because you're a very creative person.

You know what, it actually makes a lot of sense. And I think that's a really interesting point because it's like when you think about somebody that's in the FBI or working a job in politics or in the government, or even like in the military, which I kind of associate like the FBI to be like a little of a simpler mentality. It's like you don't necessarily think of, oh, this person might actually be very creative and a good writer. But it makes sense that you had those kind of traits in your family, right, because you're a very creative person.

Well, and I'm very very lucky that my parents nurtured that cultivated it. And my mother, until I was born, was a librarian. In fact, she started the CIA's library.

Well, and I'm very very lucky that my parents nurtured that cultivated it. And my mother, until I was born, was a librarian. In fact, she started the CIA's library.

Growing up in a family where you know, it's very government oriented, was creativity something that was like fostered in your household? Or was that something that you kind of carved out for yourself at a young age.

Growing up in a family where you know, it's very government oriented, was creativity something that was like fostered in your household? Or was that something that you kind of carved out for yourself at a young age.

I think it was largely my doing. I was a very reclusive, nerdy kid. I had only a select number of friends. I didn't participate in team sports. I didn't like them. I was a competitive swimmer. I liked loved swimming, but I loved reading. I loved Lego. I still remember when it came out in the nineteen fifties, and when it first came out, these were just anonymous bricks. You could do whatever you wanted with them, and I used to spend most of my allowance money buying Lego. And I still remember when doors and windows came out and roof tiles. I was ecstatic because I was just leaving holes in buildings, pretending it was a door or a window, and suddenly there's the real thing. It was thrilling. I was a creative kid, and I was teased and abused about that with some frequency. But everything makes us who we are.

I think it was largely my doing. I was a very reclusive, nerdy kid. I had only a select number of friends. I didn't participate in team sports. I didn't like them. I was a competitive swimmer. I liked loved swimming, but I loved reading. I loved Lego. I still remember when it came out in the nineteen fifties, and when it first came out, these were just anonymous bricks. You could do whatever you wanted with them, and I used to spend most of my allowance money buying Lego. And I still remember when doors and windows came out and roof tiles. I was ecstatic because I was just leaving holes in buildings, pretending it was a door or a window, and suddenly there's the real thing. It was thrilling. I was a creative kid, and I was teased and abused about that with some frequency. But everything makes us who we are.

And then you went on in college post high school, you went to an art school. I did, and you were studying sculpture art.

And then you went on in college post high school, you went to an art school. I did, and you were studying sculpture art.

Initially I wanted to be a painter, and having grown up in Washington, a city where there are lots and lots of museums and entry is free. I mean, you have this immediate access to all of this work. I thought that means museums all over the world are free. No they're not. My point is just that I really revered painting, and when I was in school, I had to take a three dimensional design class and I resisted and I had a big debate with my advisor about why am I doing this? I have absolutely no interest in it. Well, you're doing it because I'm telling you you have to do it. And it was a kind of epiphany for me because I was really good at three dimensional thinking, and I put painting on the shelf. I mean I still painted, but I really dove into sculpture, and when I graduated and was a starving artist, I ended up making a living by building architectural models for three firms in Washington.

Initially I wanted to be a painter, and having grown up in Washington, a city where there are lots and lots of museums and entry is free. I mean, you have this immediate access to all of this work. I thought that means museums all over the world are free. No they're not. My point is just that I really revered painting, and when I was in school, I had to take a three dimensional design class and I resisted and I had a big debate with my advisor about why am I doing this? I have absolutely no interest in it. Well, you're doing it because I'm telling you you have to do it. And it was a kind of epiphany for me because I was really good at three dimensional thinking, and I put painting on the shelf. I mean I still painted, but I really dove into sculpture, and when I graduated and was a starving artist, I ended up making a living by building architectural models for three firms in Washington.

It makes sense that you then went on and like still liked doing something that was maybe a little different than painting, but similar in a lot of ways, and still using your hands, yes, very technical.

It makes sense that you then went on and like still liked doing something that was maybe a little different than painting, but similar in a lot of ways, and still using your hands, yes, very technical.

My grandmother used to say, why are you doing this? You do such good things with your hands. Become a doctor, it's so different.

My grandmother used to say, why are you doing this? You do such good things with your hands. Become a doctor, it's so different.

And I actually grew up oil painting as well, so I can completely relate to like being like, oh, I might want to pursue this. But you know, it's really interesting to me about what you just said was you loved museums growing up. And it makes a lot of sense because didn't you go on also post college and you were working at a museum in the education department.

And I actually grew up oil painting as well, so I can completely relate to like being like, oh, I might want to pursue this. But you know, it's really interesting to me about what you just said was you loved museums growing up. And it makes a lot of sense because didn't you go on also post college and you were working at a museum in the education department.

Well, I was teaching at a museum school and also working in the museum in the installation area. But do you know, I know the earliest stage of my career as an educator. Tell me a dear mentor who became an incredibly close friend, woman by the name of Rona Slade. She contacted reached out to me to say, I'm teaching a high school summer class six weeks, five days a week, and I need an assistant. Would you like to do it? And I thought, oh, good happens. Of course I'd love to it, and I would have done anything for Rona. So we did the class. I loved every second of it on my first experience in a classroom in that capacity. And Rona called me about a month later and she said, I just had someone drop out who was teaching three dimensional design, and I want you to do it, and I said, oh, thank you, I'd love to do it. I'll come right over. So the first day and then it ended up being the first week of classes, I would throw up in the school's parking lot. Every single morning, I would set a wreck and I would have to brace myself up against the wall of the classroom because my knees would be shaking so badly. I would fear that I would tumble over.

Well, I was teaching at a museum school and also working in the museum in the installation area. But do you know, I know the earliest stage of my career as an educator. Tell me a dear mentor who became an incredibly close friend, woman by the name of Rona Slade. She contacted reached out to me to say, I'm teaching a high school summer class six weeks, five days a week, and I need an assistant. Would you like to do it? And I thought, oh, good happens. Of course I'd love to it, and I would have done anything for Rona. So we did the class. I loved every second of it on my first experience in a classroom in that capacity. And Rona called me about a month later and she said, I just had someone drop out who was teaching three dimensional design, and I want you to do it, and I said, oh, thank you, I'd love to do it. I'll come right over. So the first day and then it ended up being the first week of classes, I would throw up in the school's parking lot. Every single morning, I would set a wreck and I would have to brace myself up against the wall of the classroom because my knees would be shaking so badly. I would fear that I would tumble over.

And why just.

And why just.

Unconditional, abridged panic. So I spent that week rehearsing how to quit. And I took the speech that I had rehearsed to Rona was in her office. Were sitting like this and she's listening to me, nodding, and she said, well, I trust that this will either kill you or cure you. And I'm counting on the ladder good day. I thought, oh no, I've got to come back and do this again. That part of my nervousness was feeling that I needed to be the answer person, that whatever the students asked or whatever they wanted to explore, I had to be the expert. And this is a slow evolution. It wasn't until about the third or maybe even the fourth year of teaching that I came to terms with this, and I just said to myself, this is ridiculous. You can't possibly know everything. And this is before Google existed, or I could have gone into a back room and said, well, let's go google this and I'll go and pretend that I knew the answer. So I made the decision to turn it back on the students and to say, great question. I want each of you to research this and come back to the next class with an answer that you think no one else will will have found, so that we don't get all this boilerplate stuff. Well it's the same old answer every time, and it really worked. And I then began each semester by declaring to the students, you are doing the heavy lifting in this class, not me. I'm putting seventy percent of the work here on your heads, and you need to get used to that. And the other thing. This is also a non set twitter that I would say to them. I want you to know that in my world, the squeaky wheel does not get greased, so don't even think about squeaking.

Unconditional, abridged panic. So I spent that week rehearsing how to quit. And I took the speech that I had rehearsed to Rona was in her office. Were sitting like this and she's listening to me, nodding, and she said, well, I trust that this will either kill you or cure you. And I'm counting on the ladder good day. I thought, oh no, I've got to come back and do this again. That part of my nervousness was feeling that I needed to be the answer person, that whatever the students asked or whatever they wanted to explore, I had to be the expert. And this is a slow evolution. It wasn't until about the third or maybe even the fourth year of teaching that I came to terms with this, and I just said to myself, this is ridiculous. You can't possibly know everything. And this is before Google existed, or I could have gone into a back room and said, well, let's go google this and I'll go and pretend that I knew the answer. So I made the decision to turn it back on the students and to say, great question. I want each of you to research this and come back to the next class with an answer that you think no one else will will have found, so that we don't get all this boilerplate stuff. Well it's the same old answer every time, and it really worked. And I then began each semester by declaring to the students, you are doing the heavy lifting in this class, not me. I'm putting seventy percent of the work here on your heads, and you need to get used to that. And the other thing. This is also a non set twitter that I would say to them. I want you to know that in my world, the squeaky wheel does not get greased, so don't even think about squeaking.

Oh my gosh, And what do you think it was about that style of teaching that was so effective that you were like, this is working well.

Oh my gosh, And what do you think it was about that style of teaching that was so effective that you were like, this is working well.

The students felt invested in their own education and then the outcome of what we were doing in that class, and they didn't feel as though they were just a sponge soaking all the stuff up. They were responsible for a lot of the stuff. I also really believed in then and believe in even stronger now that dialogue is critically important in a classroom. If you have some pedantic teacher who just talks at you all the time, I think it's numbing. It's not even remotely engaging.

The students felt invested in their own education and then the outcome of what we were doing in that class, and they didn't feel as though they were just a sponge soaking all the stuff up. They were responsible for a lot of the stuff. I also really believed in then and believe in even stronger now that dialogue is critically important in a classroom. If you have some pedantic teacher who just talks at you all the time, I think it's numbing. It's not even remotely engaging.

It's like active learning. Yay, right, because yeah, participating in the conversation. But I can imagine, based on classes that I've been in college, that the hardest job for a teacher is figuring out how to create an environment that facilitates conversations amongst students. It's true, you know, going in as a teacher, Okay, here are the confidence students that are going to raise their hands all the time. They love to talk. But then there's the students like I was definitely one of these students that was like afraid to raise my hand down.

It's like active learning. Yay, right, because yeah, participating in the conversation. But I can imagine, based on classes that I've been in college, that the hardest job for a teacher is figuring out how to create an environment that facilitates conversations amongst students. It's true, you know, going in as a teacher, Okay, here are the confidence students that are going to raise their hands all the time. They love to talk. But then there's the students like I was definitely one of these students that was like afraid to raise my hand down.

I was true, I was the same right, So like, what did.

I was true, I was the same right, So like, what did.

You do in those situations as a teacher to kind of get those people to maybe break out of their shell.

You do in those situations as a teacher to kind of get those people to maybe break out of their shell.

In the studio situation, it's very different from a desk situation. In a studio of situation, physically, you don't feel that there's this hierarchy of who's closest to the teacher in a way or to the podium because as an instructor, I'm always walking around, walking, walking, walking and giving everybody equal time. And also in that kind of capacity, you can have a one on one it's so easy. I mean, it's like what you see on Project Runway. But when it's a different kind of class, it's it's not a studio class, it's I won't call it a lecture because I don't do that, but but a lecture style. I would have the students arrange their desks in a circle. I would sit at one of those desks in the circle too, and we'd conduct the class so everybody has the same line of vision in a manner speaking, there's no one who's at the front of the class versus being at the back of the class. And it really it worked, But it has to do with the physical environment with what do you do with chairs or tables or deaths that creates a kind of democracy.

In the studio situation, it's very different from a desk situation. In a studio of situation, physically, you don't feel that there's this hierarchy of who's closest to the teacher in a way or to the podium because as an instructor, I'm always walking around, walking, walking, walking and giving everybody equal time. And also in that kind of capacity, you can have a one on one it's so easy. I mean, it's like what you see on Project Runway. But when it's a different kind of class, it's it's not a studio class, it's I won't call it a lecture because I don't do that, but but a lecture style. I would have the students arrange their desks in a circle. I would sit at one of those desks in the circle too, and we'd conduct the class so everybody has the same line of vision in a manner speaking, there's no one who's at the front of the class versus being at the back of the class. And it really it worked, But it has to do with the physical environment with what do you do with chairs or tables or deaths that creates a kind of democracy.

Of short Really I love that idea. Though the circle table for a left year, I think that's so smart.

Of short Really I love that idea. Though the circle table for a left year, I think that's so smart.

I will also share with you, though Ky, this was true teaching. This was true in Project Runway. I am the worst person when it comes to first impressions. Why that person you think, oh, they're never going to mount anything, They're never going to do anything. They end up rising and being the cream and the person you think, oh, this person's going to run away with it, then they end up disappointing you.

I will also share with you, though Ky, this was true teaching. This was true in Project Runway. I am the worst person when it comes to first impressions. Why that person you think, oh, they're never going to mount anything, They're never going to do anything. They end up rising and being the cream and the person you think, oh, this person's going to run away with it, then they end up disappointing you.

I want to talk about that as well in the context of fashion, because I feel like that's probably a common theme in those kind of classrooms. There are some people that I think don't have the same level of raw talent. Absolutely, you are harder workers.

I want to talk about that as well in the context of fashion, because I feel like that's probably a common theme in those kind of classrooms. There are some people that I think don't have the same level of raw talent. Absolutely, you are harder workers.

Exactly, And in fact, I will use my niece as as an example of that. My niece and my nephew couldn't be more different, completely and totally different. My niece is a workaholic. She did well in school because she really worked hard. My nephew tested off the charts and was a lazy, good for nothing bum and did really badly. And I sat on the admissions committee at Parsons for a number of years, and I was the champion of the underdog, because most faculty on an emissions committee only want the stars. Well, yeah, because then you don't have to work very hard. They're self starters. They'll do all this on their own and you can just sit in the back of the studio and smoke a cigarette or whatever. So when we would have someone whose portfolio was raw, but you look at where they're from. They're from some place in Alaska with sixty people. Look what they're doing with this. They've ever been to a museum. And I was proud that I was the champion of those individuals. And if they in fact came to Parsons, generally speaking, they did really, really well because they were so thrilled to be in this environment that nurtured them and that exposed them to things that they hadn't been exposed to before. And as a teacher, that's the most exciting thing in the world. When you see someone have an epiphany about who they can be and what they can become and they take charge of that. It's thrilling.

Exactly, And in fact, I will use my niece as as an example of that. My niece and my nephew couldn't be more different, completely and totally different. My niece is a workaholic. She did well in school because she really worked hard. My nephew tested off the charts and was a lazy, good for nothing bum and did really badly. And I sat on the admissions committee at Parsons for a number of years, and I was the champion of the underdog, because most faculty on an emissions committee only want the stars. Well, yeah, because then you don't have to work very hard. They're self starters. They'll do all this on their own and you can just sit in the back of the studio and smoke a cigarette or whatever. So when we would have someone whose portfolio was raw, but you look at where they're from. They're from some place in Alaska with sixty people. Look what they're doing with this. They've ever been to a museum. And I was proud that I was the champion of those individuals. And if they in fact came to Parsons, generally speaking, they did really, really well because they were so thrilled to be in this environment that nurtured them and that exposed them to things that they hadn't been exposed to before. And as a teacher, that's the most exciting thing in the world. When you see someone have an epiphany about who they can be and what they can become and they take charge of that. It's thrilling.

I think being a teacher and you can attest for. It's like one of the most rewarding careers is because over those four years and then beyond, you really see somebody grow so much to themselves. Let's talk about this, because you went from studying sculpture in college to then getting to be who you are, that one of the most influential people in the fashion industry and somebody that so many call a mentor. It's incredible. So like, let's talk about how did that happen? Like how did you first like walk me through, like when did you get the call? Did you interview for Parsons? Like how did you first get the admissions role?

I think being a teacher and you can attest for. It's like one of the most rewarding careers is because over those four years and then beyond, you really see somebody grow so much to themselves. Let's talk about this, because you went from studying sculpture in college to then getting to be who you are, that one of the most influential people in the fashion industry and somebody that so many call a mentor. It's incredible. So like, let's talk about how did that happen? Like how did you first like walk me through, like when did you get the call? Did you interview for Parsons? Like how did you first get the admissions role?

The Parsons people knew me from conferences and we would probably see each other be in the same room together maybe two to three times a year. And I had been been teaching at the Cork Run for five years, so that was a lot of exposure. And they liked me, I'm happy to say, and I was in awe of them. I mean there were Parsons there were in New York. So they called in the summer of nineteen two to offer me a teaching position in three D design, and I said, very flattered, thank you very much. No thank you. I'm very happy here. Well, in the next year, my life changed and I didn't know they were to call again, but they did, and two weeks later I was living in New York. It was very abrupt, and it was very intimidating and very difficult. I moved here in August of nineteen eighty three, the end of August, right before classes began, and I have to tell you by Thanksgiving. I thought, I don't think I can do this. I think I need to go back to Washington. This is just not working for me. And I had a fellow teacher who I got to know pretty well, Ellen, who said to me, I've lived here my whole life, and she said, you have to know something. She said, every emotion that anyone can experience, they experience here to the nth degree. It's on steroids, whatever it is. If it's sadness, it's the saddest anyone's ever been. If they're high, it's the highest anyone's ever been. So she said, you take all this, you put in a bowlet, and you mix it in with a huge amount of sexual libido. And that's New York. And it was a relief. I thought, Okay, I get it, and it was like a long distance runner hitting the wall.

The Parsons people knew me from conferences and we would probably see each other be in the same room together maybe two to three times a year. And I had been been teaching at the Cork Run for five years, so that was a lot of exposure. And they liked me, I'm happy to say, and I was in awe of them. I mean there were Parsons there were in New York. So they called in the summer of nineteen two to offer me a teaching position in three D design, and I said, very flattered, thank you very much. No thank you. I'm very happy here. Well, in the next year, my life changed and I didn't know they were to call again, but they did, and two weeks later I was living in New York. It was very abrupt, and it was very intimidating and very difficult. I moved here in August of nineteen eighty three, the end of August, right before classes began, and I have to tell you by Thanksgiving. I thought, I don't think I can do this. I think I need to go back to Washington. This is just not working for me. And I had a fellow teacher who I got to know pretty well, Ellen, who said to me, I've lived here my whole life, and she said, you have to know something. She said, every emotion that anyone can experience, they experience here to the nth degree. It's on steroids, whatever it is. If it's sadness, it's the saddest anyone's ever been. If they're high, it's the highest anyone's ever been. So she said, you take all this, you put in a bowlet, and you mix it in with a huge amount of sexual libido. And that's New York. And it was a relief. I thought, Okay, I get it, and it was like a long distance runner hitting the wall.

Suddenly everything was okay, and now you've grown to love New York City years later. It's incredible, and I am so impressed by the people that come from different cities, different states and make it in New York City because it's not easy.

Suddenly everything was okay, and now you've grown to love New York City years later. It's incredible, and I am so impressed by the people that come from different cities, different states and make it in New York City because it's not easy.

It's not easy, and a lot of people don't make it. They make the decision to leave it. It's a tough place, it really is. But once you do hit the wall, it spoils you. There's no other place like it, and it's really wonderful. So let me tell you the fashion story I met Parsons. I'm teaching three dimensional design to freshman Foundation year students, so they haven't chosen a major, so it's I'm teaching across disciplines and I love that. I mean, I love the fact that the students they probably knew what they wanted to major in, but they had not declared a major yet, so it was a cross disciplinary course. And I was serving on the admissions committee. There was must have been something about me that the dean of the school at that time saw, but a decision was made to make me associate Jane of the school.

It's not easy, and a lot of people don't make it. They make the decision to leave it. It's a tough place, it really is. But once you do hit the wall, it spoils you. There's no other place like it, and it's really wonderful. So let me tell you the fashion story I met Parsons. I'm teaching three dimensional design to freshman Foundation year students, so they haven't chosen a major, so it's I'm teaching across disciplines and I love that. I mean, I love the fact that the students they probably knew what they wanted to major in, but they had not declared a major yet, so it was a cross disciplinary course. And I was serving on the admissions committee. There was must have been something about me that the dean of the school at that time saw, but a decision was made to make me associate Jane of the school.

How old were you at this time? I feel like this.

How old were you at this time? I feel like this.

I moved here when I was thirty. Wow, so I was probably forty so young. I didn't know exactly what the responsibilies went entail, because there was I have to say, there was another associate, Jane Leslie Kadman. She was really the academic dean. And my role, I'll tell you how I described it. I was the pooper scooper. I was the person who went into academic departments that were floundering or having a moment of crisis, and I had to fix it. We were looking for a new chair of the fashion department and the department had a crisis of leadership of sorts. There had been a chair for twenty five years when he left, he was replaced by someone who only lasted three months. It's a big job and at the time arguably the most important department of parsons. So we hired someone that no one was very keen about, but he had a high profile, and when the senior administration, the three of us came to terms with the fact that he really couldn't do the job, the ridiculous decision was made that I would be his shadow, that I would go to the department with him and I would actually do the work. So that was August of two thousand and I'd been there for maybe three months, three months as a common denominator in many of these things, and I wrote a State of the Union to the dean saying, this place is hemorrhaging. This place is the biggest mess I could ever imagine. And I'll summarize it for you. It was a culture of infantilization. The faculty were infantilized by the administration and by this program called the Designer Critic program, which is a whole other story. The students were infantilized by the faculty. Other than the faculty, no one had a voice. You go in into a critique, the students aren't participating. They're ciphers. They're just sitting there while the teacher carries on and on and on. But not about the clothes, not about the design things like you know, if you put a little more shadow under this eye, it's going to make the face pop. I'm thinking, who gives the damn about the face? Yeah? I care about the clothes. What's happening here? Yeah, So, in addition to the place hemorrhaging, I said this is not a design school. I said, this place is a dressmaking school. And I was intent upon making change. And I said to the dean, we can't bring someone in from the outside. It will take them God only knows how much time to understand how wrong this is. Because the school had such a great reputation the department did and and more than seventy percent of the design of the designers on Seventh Avenue where persons educated. But I also said, this is like the monkeys and the typewriters. You give a thousand monkeys, a thousand typewriters for a thousand years, and someone's going to write the next great novel. And also that first there wasn't much that I could do. The budget set, the faculty contracts are out, the curriculum set. I mean, you really can't do anything except observe and ask a ton of questions. And most of the questions I would ask the faculty have the following answer, Well, that's the way we've always done it. Oh that's the other thing. I was the only person who wasn't Parsons educated, so they all were regurgitating what they'd experienced. Oh, also, it's two thousand, there's not a computer in the department. No, no, we don't believe in that that newfangled stuff. There wasn't a fashion history class. Oh, we don't want the students to be influenced. What we have a responsibility to give them a history of their discipline. What are you talking about? So for the students coming, the new students coming in the following year two thousand, two thousand and one, Sorry, I spent the summer with a group of faculty rewriting the entire program. And before doing that, we'll go back to the two thousand and two thousand and one academic year. I met with the rising seniors, the students who were then juniors, and there was this very well known program called the Designer Critic program that would pair, well not really pair. Six to eight students would work with Donna Karen Mark Jacobs time forward, and that Designer Critic would oversee the development of a collection. I said, you've all come here, I'm certain revering the Designer Critic program and eager to participate in it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So how would you respond if I were to tell you that I wanted to go away? There was dead silence. Well, don't you want to know what you'd be doing. Yeah, what would we be doing? And at this point there's seventy students who are seniors. You will design and execute a collection of ten to twelve looks over the course of these two semesters, and that will be your senior year experience. Well, they were ecstatic, they were cheering, they were applauding, they were on their feet. I said, wait a minute, who's terrified. No hands went them. I said, you should all be terrified because in fact, what I'm tossing at you or throwing at you is something that you're really underprepared for. And I said, but I believe in you, and I believe in your aptitude and your capabilities, but you have been under challenged. Everyone's been working hard, but no one's been working smart.

I moved here when I was thirty. Wow, so I was probably forty so young. I didn't know exactly what the responsibilies went entail, because there was I have to say, there was another associate, Jane Leslie Kadman. She was really the academic dean. And my role, I'll tell you how I described it. I was the pooper scooper. I was the person who went into academic departments that were floundering or having a moment of crisis, and I had to fix it. We were looking for a new chair of the fashion department and the department had a crisis of leadership of sorts. There had been a chair for twenty five years when he left, he was replaced by someone who only lasted three months. It's a big job and at the time arguably the most important department of parsons. So we hired someone that no one was very keen about, but he had a high profile, and when the senior administration, the three of us came to terms with the fact that he really couldn't do the job, the ridiculous decision was made that I would be his shadow, that I would go to the department with him and I would actually do the work. So that was August of two thousand and I'd been there for maybe three months, three months as a common denominator in many of these things, and I wrote a State of the Union to the dean saying, this place is hemorrhaging. This place is the biggest mess I could ever imagine. And I'll summarize it for you. It was a culture of infantilization. The faculty were infantilized by the administration and by this program called the Designer Critic program, which is a whole other story. The students were infantilized by the faculty. Other than the faculty, no one had a voice. You go in into a critique, the students aren't participating. They're ciphers. They're just sitting there while the teacher carries on and on and on. But not about the clothes, not about the design things like you know, if you put a little more shadow under this eye, it's going to make the face pop. I'm thinking, who gives the damn about the face? Yeah? I care about the clothes. What's happening here? Yeah, So, in addition to the place hemorrhaging, I said this is not a design school. I said, this place is a dressmaking school. And I was intent upon making change. And I said to the dean, we can't bring someone in from the outside. It will take them God only knows how much time to understand how wrong this is. Because the school had such a great reputation the department did and and more than seventy percent of the design of the designers on Seventh Avenue where persons educated. But I also said, this is like the monkeys and the typewriters. You give a thousand monkeys, a thousand typewriters for a thousand years, and someone's going to write the next great novel. And also that first there wasn't much that I could do. The budget set, the faculty contracts are out, the curriculum set. I mean, you really can't do anything except observe and ask a ton of questions. And most of the questions I would ask the faculty have the following answer, Well, that's the way we've always done it. Oh that's the other thing. I was the only person who wasn't Parsons educated, so they all were regurgitating what they'd experienced. Oh, also, it's two thousand, there's not a computer in the department. No, no, we don't believe in that that newfangled stuff. There wasn't a fashion history class. Oh, we don't want the students to be influenced. What we have a responsibility to give them a history of their discipline. What are you talking about? So for the students coming, the new students coming in the following year two thousand, two thousand and one, Sorry, I spent the summer with a group of faculty rewriting the entire program. And before doing that, we'll go back to the two thousand and two thousand and one academic year. I met with the rising seniors, the students who were then juniors, and there was this very well known program called the Designer Critic program that would pair, well not really pair. Six to eight students would work with Donna Karen Mark Jacobs time forward, and that Designer Critic would oversee the development of a collection. I said, you've all come here, I'm certain revering the Designer Critic program and eager to participate in it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So how would you respond if I were to tell you that I wanted to go away? There was dead silence. Well, don't you want to know what you'd be doing. Yeah, what would we be doing? And at this point there's seventy students who are seniors. You will design and execute a collection of ten to twelve looks over the course of these two semesters, and that will be your senior year experience. Well, they were ecstatic, they were cheering, they were applauding, they were on their feet. I said, wait a minute, who's terrified. No hands went them. I said, you should all be terrified because in fact, what I'm tossing at you or throwing at you is something that you're really underprepared for. And I said, but I believe in you, and I believe in your aptitude and your capabilities, but you have been under challenged. Everyone's been working hard, but no one's been working smart.

You really had to get into the weeds and say this is what's not working, this is what is working, and be able to implement that when you're dealing with teachers that have been there for so many time, I know, it's very hard to Well, it's change.

You really had to get into the weeds and say this is what's not working, this is what is working, and be able to implement that when you're dealing with teachers that have been there for so many time, I know, it's very hard to Well, it's change.

It's changing a culture, which is really I mean, it's easy in a way to change course content, but changing a culture, especially a culture that is all about in vantilization, where the faculty void is the only voice that the students ever hear, and they never hear their own. So I have to say part of what propelled me for was an anger about how how could this have happened and why is it being perpetuated? And we have and also my huge respect for the students. We have a responsibility to these young people and we need to do what's best for them. And I think the fact that I'm not a fashion designer and didn't have a fashion education was a huge asset because I didn't have an extra grind. I didn't have a particular point of view other than quality. I didn't have a taste other than quality, as opposed to will I'm going to make you into a mini me. In some ways it corresponded with Project Runway. Project Runway was born in two thousand and four.

It's changing a culture, which is really I mean, it's easy in a way to change course content, but changing a culture, especially a culture that is all about in vantilization, where the faculty void is the only voice that the students ever hear, and they never hear their own. So I have to say part of what propelled me for was an anger about how how could this have happened and why is it being perpetuated? And we have and also my huge respect for the students. We have a responsibility to these young people and we need to do what's best for them. And I think the fact that I'm not a fashion designer and didn't have a fashion education was a huge asset because I didn't have an extra grind. I didn't have a particular point of view other than quality. I didn't have a taste other than quality, as opposed to will I'm going to make you into a mini me. In some ways it corresponded with Project Runway. Project Runway was born in two thousand and four.

Four years after becoming the chairman of the fashion department WOW.

Four years after becoming the chairman of the fashion department WOW.

So Project Runway couldn't have happened in the nineties. And when we think about American fashion up until nineteen ninety ish, it was a very narrowly defined esthetic swath and by the time we reach the late eighties, it's Donna Karen, It's Calvin Klein, It's Ralph Lauren, and that's about it, at least in America. Then American fashion goes into a period of crisis, a crisis of identity. It doesn't know who it is or what it is. And when it comes out of it and the second half of the nineties, it suddenly is a completely different place. It's a place that once to culture or once to cultivate and nurture young entrepreneurial designers. That allowed me to say, well, this is what we have to do with this department. We need to be educating students who can lead this department as designers, not as assistant designers. This was such a new approach for the department that a lot of students were very frozen. They just didn't know what to do. And for me, unsticking them getting them out of that frozen state was relatively easy. Ask them, who's the customer who's going to wear these designs? And that really helped enormously. Who are you putting them on? If this is at Sacksmith Avenue, who's hanging next to it? So what department are you in? But for the most part, those students were few and far between. Most of the of the students knew what they wanted to do and who they wanted to be. I have to tell you one other thing about my evolution with fashion.

So Project Runway couldn't have happened in the nineties. And when we think about American fashion up until nineteen ninety ish, it was a very narrowly defined esthetic swath and by the time we reach the late eighties, it's Donna Karen, It's Calvin Klein, It's Ralph Lauren, and that's about it, at least in America. Then American fashion goes into a period of crisis, a crisis of identity. It doesn't know who it is or what it is. And when it comes out of it and the second half of the nineties, it suddenly is a completely different place. It's a place that once to culture or once to cultivate and nurture young entrepreneurial designers. That allowed me to say, well, this is what we have to do with this department. We need to be educating students who can lead this department as designers, not as assistant designers. This was such a new approach for the department that a lot of students were very frozen. They just didn't know what to do. And for me, unsticking them getting them out of that frozen state was relatively easy. Ask them, who's the customer who's going to wear these designs? And that really helped enormously. Who are you putting them on? If this is at Sacksmith Avenue, who's hanging next to it? So what department are you in? But for the most part, those students were few and far between. Most of the of the students knew what they wanted to do and who they wanted to be. I have to tell you one other thing about my evolution with fashion.

Yeah, I need to know because in two thousand, like what was your relationship with fashion?

Yeah, I need to know because in two thousand, like what was your relationship with fashion?

I was wearing baggy Brooks Brothers suits.

I was wearing baggy Brooks Brothers suits.

Okay, and now you're so known for your.

Okay, and now you're so known for your.

That's a whole other story though, so I will say proudly. Diane von Furstenberg has been a dear friend for a long time before fashion because she was a board member. She was a board member of Parsons and I was managing the board. So I got to know her well and we liked each other and we would got together for launch and she's just a great person. So the first time she came to see me in the fashion department, we're sitting in my office. I'm borrowing a phrase from I Love Lucy. She looked like she just walked into the Grand ballroom and smelled raw cauliflower cooking. I looked at her and I said, what's the matter. She gestured, she said this, She said, this isn't working.

That's a whole other story though, so I will say proudly. Diane von Furstenberg has been a dear friend for a long time before fashion because she was a board member. She was a board member of Parsons and I was managing the board. So I got to know her well and we liked each other and we would got together for launch and she's just a great person. So the first time she came to see me in the fashion department, we're sitting in my office. I'm borrowing a phrase from I Love Lucy. She looked like she just walked into the Grand ballroom and smelled raw cauliflower cooking. I looked at her and I said, what's the matter. She gestured, she said this, She said, this isn't working.

That's me right now, Like he mis setting guys, everybody looking that.

That's me right now, Like he mis setting guys, everybody looking that.

Is me right now. No, it's not. You look stunning and adorable. She said, you need to be more mom. She said, you need to be more modern for the students, for the industry, and for yourself. So I had a major transformation. I started wearing all black and I got a black turtleneck sweater, a black leather blazer, black pants, and that was my uniform and I wore it all the time and she approved. But my real fashion epiphany was completely unrelated in a way. I had a minor role in the two thousand and nine or was it eleven, I think two thousand and nine movie The Smurfs. Rita Ryak was the costumer for the show. So we had a conversation before we started filming and she said, oh, you're tim gun. I wouldn't dream of telling you how to dress. So I brought my own wardrobe, of course, which I always do, and we taped that day and she called me that night and she said I just looked at the rushes. She said, your wardrobe isn't good enough. I was mortified. I was mortified.

Is me right now. No, it's not. You look stunning and adorable. She said, you need to be more mom. She said, you need to be more modern for the students, for the industry, and for yourself. So I had a major transformation. I started wearing all black and I got a black turtleneck sweater, a black leather blazer, black pants, and that was my uniform and I wore it all the time and she approved. But my real fashion epiphany was completely unrelated in a way. I had a minor role in the two thousand and nine or was it eleven, I think two thousand and nine movie The Smurfs. Rita Ryak was the costumer for the show. So we had a conversation before we started filming and she said, oh, you're tim gun. I wouldn't dream of telling you how to dress. So I brought my own wardrobe, of course, which I always do, and we taped that day and she called me that night and she said I just looked at the rushes. She said, your wardrobe isn't good enough. I was mortified. I was mortified.

She said she so excited that I'd be like transform it for me.

She said she so excited that I'd be like transform it for me.

No. No, so she said tomorrow. We weren't taping the next day. She said, meet me at this tailor at such and such a time. So I did, and I'm in the dressing room and I'm looking at the labels. Sure it was four hundred and fifty dollars, the tie was one hundred and fifty. This is two thousand and nine suits, three thousand dollars. I said, I'm not wearing this. I'm not putting these things on. Put them on. You put them on. She's screaming at me. And everything had to do with pattern mixing, and I said, I look like a circus clown. This is ridiculous. I'm not going to go on camera dress like this. You are, You're going to do it. So it's a bit like hitting the wall is a long distance runner. Yeah, I hit the wall and I thought, I really like this. This, this is good. The trouble is, once the show was over, how do I sustain this? I'm that wardrobe I loved. Now I have to shop for it. So I would go to Barney's and Burgdorf's and Sex and I would feel physically ill when I left, having spent so much money.

No. No, so she said tomorrow. We weren't taping the next day. She said, meet me at this tailor at such and such a time. So I did, and I'm in the dressing room and I'm looking at the labels. Sure it was four hundred and fifty dollars, the tie was one hundred and fifty. This is two thousand and nine suits, three thousand dollars. I said, I'm not wearing this. I'm not putting these things on. Put them on. You put them on. She's screaming at me. And everything had to do with pattern mixing, and I said, I look like a circus clown. This is ridiculous. I'm not going to go on camera dress like this. You are, You're going to do it. So it's a bit like hitting the wall is a long distance runner. Yeah, I hit the wall and I thought, I really like this. This, this is good. The trouble is, once the show was over, how do I sustain this? I'm that wardrobe I loved. Now I have to shop for it. So I would go to Barney's and Burgdorf's and Sex and I would feel physically ill when I left, having spent so much money.

Yeah, you grew up with a humble backgrounds and the FBI parents are in the government. And then it's like, all of a sudden, fashion is expensive, right trus Like what is netaporte? What is forward?

Yeah, you grew up with a humble backgrounds and the FBI parents are in the government. And then it's like, all of a sudden, fashion is expensive, right trus Like what is netaporte? What is forward?

Well at this time, Eric Wilson, who was then fashion critic for The Times, wrote an article about this new store. No one pays me to say any of this. They don't give me free stuff. A story called suit Supply originated in the Netherlands that had been in Europe for thirty years. They just opened a store in New York. He said, if you're that guy going to Burgdorf some barneys and sacks, you need to check this out. I thought, oh, come on, this is too good to be true. So I went to suit Supply. I was in awe and totally enraptured by the place and by the prices. I mean, it was really affordable.

Well at this time, Eric Wilson, who was then fashion critic for The Times, wrote an article about this new store. No one pays me to say any of this. They don't give me free stuff. A story called suit Supply originated in the Netherlands that had been in Europe for thirty years. They just opened a store in New York. He said, if you're that guy going to Burgdorf some barneys and sacks, you need to check this out. I thought, oh, come on, this is too good to be true. So I went to suit Supply. I was in awe and totally enraptured by the place and by the prices. I mean, it was really affordable.

They are they still are. They're great prices for men.

They are they still are. They're great prices for men.

Yeah, and every single salesperson is an expert in fit. They have to spend a month or more in the Netherlands with the tailors, so they won't let you leave something off the rack. You've got to put it on. They have to see how you look at it. And my whole wardrobe. Now, practically the only thing I'm wearing that suit supply are the pants and the shoes.

Yeah, and every single salesperson is an expert in fit. They have to spend a month or more in the Netherlands with the tailors, so they won't let you leave something off the rack. You've got to put it on. They have to see how you look at it. And my whole wardrobe. Now, practically the only thing I'm wearing that suit supply are the pants and the shoes.

I love these pants. They're so cool because when you look closely at them, they have like little specks.

I love these pants. They're so cool because when you look closely at them, they have like little specks.

Of color orange and green.

Of color orange and green.

And when you were doing Project Runway, you didn't feel like you were as fashionable? Then, oh well really, well.

And when you were doing Project Runway, you didn't feel like you were as fashionable? Then, oh well really, well.

I was wearing what I would wear to a design class.

I was wearing what I would wear to a design class.

Okay, so you had your uniform.

Okay, so you had your uniform.

Yeah. And also I was never intended to be on camera. I was the consultant to the show.

Yeah. And also I was never intended to be on camera. I was the consultant to the show.

Let's talk about that, Like, how do you go from dean of the School of Fashion at Parsons to then being so involved in pop culture with Project Runway and you know the Smurfs? Well, you designed enough of for Barbie.

Let's talk about that, Like, how do you go from dean of the School of Fashion at Parsons to then being so involved in pop culture with Project Runway and you know the Smurfs? Well, you designed enough of for Barbie.

I don't know if anyone thought that Project Runway would end up being a hit show. I certainly didn't.

I don't know if anyone thought that Project Runway would end up being a hit show. I certainly didn't.

What did it originate from? Like, was it the Parsons students?

What did it originate from? Like, was it the Parsons students?

No? No, no, no, not okay. The producers of the show, Jane Lipsits and Dan cut Forth, called me in January of two thousand and four and they introduced themselves and they said they were doing this new show about fashion and that people in the industry said that they should talk to me, so I asked them for more details, and when I heard fashion reality, I said, you know, this industry has enough trouble without that, I'm really not interested. They said, we'll give us ten minutes. So I googled them and found out that they were the Project green Light producers, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck about making movies. Thought well, that's a show that has a seriousness of purpose and integrity, and let's see what the conversation is like. So I really liked them and what they had to say, and they wanted to use real fashion designers, not pick people around them off the street, saying well, we'll make you into a fashion designer, and I got excited about the whole idea. Three to four months went by, I didn't hear a thing from them, and I thought, okay, whatever. Then I heard from them they said, we really want you to be our consultant, and I should add unpaid, as was my role for the first two years. I didn't think anyone got paid for reality television. So I signed on to this project, which was much bigger than I had actually been able to wrap my brain around. But that's understandable.

No? No, no, no, not okay. The producers of the show, Jane Lipsits and Dan cut Forth, called me in January of two thousand and four and they introduced themselves and they said they were doing this new show about fashion and that people in the industry said that they should talk to me, so I asked them for more details, and when I heard fashion reality, I said, you know, this industry has enough trouble without that, I'm really not interested. They said, we'll give us ten minutes. So I googled them and found out that they were the Project green Light producers, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck about making movies. Thought well, that's a show that has a seriousness of purpose and integrity, and let's see what the conversation is like. So I really liked them and what they had to say, and they wanted to use real fashion designers, not pick people around them off the street, saying well, we'll make you into a fashion designer, and I got excited about the whole idea. Three to four months went by, I didn't hear a thing from them, and I thought, okay, whatever. Then I heard from them they said, we really want you to be our consultant, and I should add unpaid, as was my role for the first two years. I didn't think anyone got paid for reality television. So I signed on to this project, which was much bigger than I had actually been able to wrap my brain around. But that's understandable.

I mean talk about a role that is like the perfect fit for you, down to like your ethos and what you're all about. Right.

I mean talk about a role that is like the perfect fit for you, down to like your ethos and what you're all about. Right.

Well, I should add though, during all this consulting and planning, but my role in the show didn't exist. There was no role.

Well, I should add though, during all this consulting and planning, but my role in the show didn't exist. There was no role.

You ended up almost being like the host of the show, right or you were the guy that was always there, like commenting on the designs and being like make it work, and like here's the amount of time you have left.

You ended up almost being like the host of the show, right or you were the guy that was always there, like commenting on the designs and being like make it work, and like here's the amount of time you have left.

Well, it happened this way. It's today. The designers are arriving tomorrow. So the producers came to me and I could tell they were uneasy. They asked me, how would you feel about going into the workroom and asking the designers what they're doing? And I said, That's how I've spent most of my life. Easy. And I was very aware of the camera placement. There was a camera on me, there was a camera on the designer, and I thought, all right, I got it. As long as I have the designer responding to me, no one needs to see me, no one needs to hear my voice. And I, honest to god, never dreamed i'd be in the cut of the show.

Well, it happened this way. It's today. The designers are arriving tomorrow. So the producers came to me and I could tell they were uneasy. They asked me, how would you feel about going into the workroom and asking the designers what they're doing? And I said, That's how I've spent most of my life. Easy. And I was very aware of the camera placement. There was a camera on me, there was a camera on the designer, and I thought, all right, I got it. As long as I have the designer responding to me, no one needs to see me, no one needs to hear my voice. And I, honest to god, never dreamed i'd be in the cut of the show.

You have such a natural charisma. You were funny. They probably thought we got to keep them in well.

You have such a natural charisma. You were funny. They probably thought we got to keep them in well.

And I have to say I didn't know what the show would actually look like. I mean, I knew my role in it, and I knew what happened on the runway with the judging. I didn't know what was going on at the Atlas apartments. I thought, maybe this is all about sexual escapades. Who knows. And there was one taping. I was always in the Parsons auditorium during the judging, and I would say, in the literal and metaphorical dark, and there's a woman standing next to me in the literal and metaphorical dark, and I didn't know who she was. And it was early in the season, so this person certainly didn't know who I was. And we're watching the judging and she turns to me and she whispers, who's going to want to watch this? I said, oh god, I said, you were roborating my worst fears that this is just going to be so boring and it'll be like watching paint dry.

And I have to say I didn't know what the show would actually look like. I mean, I knew my role in it, and I knew what happened on the runway with the judging. I didn't know what was going on at the Atlas apartments. I thought, maybe this is all about sexual escapades. Who knows. And there was one taping. I was always in the Parsons auditorium during the judging, and I would say, in the literal and metaphorical dark, and there's a woman standing next to me in the literal and metaphorical dark, and I didn't know who she was. And it was early in the season, so this person certainly didn't know who I was. And we're watching the judging and she turns to me and she whispers, who's going to want to watch this? I said, oh god, I said, you were roborating my worst fears that this is just going to be so boring and it'll be like watching paint dry.

Not what anybody wants to hear when they's just starting out.

Not what anybody wants to hear when they's just starting out.

So after the taping that day, I asked someone, who is that crumpy woman the President Bravo, great Lawrence alasnak Oh.

So after the taping that day, I asked someone, who is that crumpy woman the President Bravo, great Lawrence alasnak Oh.

Oh gosh, Well, I feel like there's a lot of nerves that go into like a new show, right, So I giving her some credit there.

Oh gosh, Well, I feel like there's a lot of nerves that go into like a new show, right, So I giving her some credit there.

Yeah, So I never dreamed there'd be a season two, let alone the last season Heidi and I did together was season sixteen.

Yeah, So I never dreamed there'd be a season two, let alone the last season Heidi and I did together was season sixteen.

How quickly though into this season and into maybe watching back the episodes as they were rolling out, where you like, oh, this is going to be.

How quickly though into this season and into maybe watching back the episodes as they were rolling out, where you like, oh, this is going to be.

A hit again in all sincerity, and never dreamed there be a season two. And we weren't picked up right away either, And then there was all this anxiety about season two, and I'll tell you why, and I would never have occurred to me. The anxiety was all from the producers and the network because with season one, when we're casting the show, when we're looking for designers, nobody knew what it was, so they came unencumbered with what the show is actually about. For season two, we've shown our hand, the cards are all out on the table, so they did know what the show was about, and there was just tremendous concern that this meant that there would be contrivances and expectations that we would have to meet in a certain way. But then by season three and then four and five, all that dissipated.

A hit again in all sincerity, and never dreamed there be a season two. And we weren't picked up right away either, And then there was all this anxiety about season two, and I'll tell you why, and I would never have occurred to me. The anxiety was all from the producers and the network because with season one, when we're casting the show, when we're looking for designers, nobody knew what it was, so they came unencumbered with what the show is actually about. For season two, we've shown our hand, the cards are all out on the table, so they did know what the show was about, and there was just tremendous concern that this meant that there would be contrivances and expectations that we would have to meet in a certain way. But then by season three and then four and five, all that dissipated.

I'm curious because you were very known, as I kind of said before, for your make it work catchphrase? How did that come to be? Is that just something you said and all of a sudden people were like, Oh, I like that. He says this all the time.

I'm curious because you were very known, as I kind of said before, for your make it work catchphrase? How did that come to be? Is that just something you said and all of a sudden people were like, Oh, I like that. He says this all the time.

I can tell you when I first said it. I first said it in a fashion class. To the year was it's two thousand and one, two thousand and two. I was working with seniors. It was a six hour a week class in concept development for thirty weeks. It was full in spring semester. I had a student who had been working on this since September. It's now April, so we have a month and a half to go. And she said to me, I'm changing everything. What are you talking about? You're changing everything. I don't like it anymore. I said, you're working on this in September. You've been working on this for months. What's the problem. She said, I don't know, and she's shrugging. I just don't like it. I said, well, you know what you're gonna do. You're gonna sit here you're going to offer a diagnosis of what it is that's wrong and what it is you want to fix, and then you're going to offer up a prescription for how to make it work. I said, you're not a band, and I said, also, this is for your sake. If I let you just drop this and start all over again, what will you really know about what went wrong? But if you have to offer up a diagnosis and a prescription for making it work, think of what you now have in your own physical and mental toolbox problem solving skills that you wouldn't have had otherwise.

I can tell you when I first said it. I first said it in a fashion class. To the year was it's two thousand and one, two thousand and two. I was working with seniors. It was a six hour a week class in concept development for thirty weeks. It was full in spring semester. I had a student who had been working on this since September. It's now April, so we have a month and a half to go. And she said to me, I'm changing everything. What are you talking about? You're changing everything. I don't like it anymore. I said, you're working on this in September. You've been working on this for months. What's the problem. She said, I don't know, and she's shrugging. I just don't like it. I said, well, you know what you're gonna do. You're gonna sit here you're going to offer a diagnosis of what it is that's wrong and what it is you want to fix, and then you're going to offer up a prescription for how to make it work. I said, you're not a band, and I said, also, this is for your sake. If I let you just drop this and start all over again, what will you really know about what went wrong? But if you have to offer up a diagnosis and a prescription for making it work, think of what you now have in your own physical and mental toolbox problem solving skills that you wouldn't have had otherwise.

You are the perfect example for what a teacher should be, because not only are you a visionary for how a school and department should operate in the most effective way, but you also are the type of person that takes such an individual interest in someone.