This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I Heart Media, or their employees. Because that reminded me of the time where he lost it and he threw the hold dinner table up and like the staggitty and everything went up into the ceiling. At stain is still on the ceiling. We've been hearing the story of our anonymous guest who endured a difficult but sadly in many ways classical childhood in a narcissistic family system. She has shared how this affected her as a person, her brother, her mother, and what the gas lighting and manipulation look like from her perspective as a child. We heard about the confusion that comes when a parent has one face for the world and another for his children, and the coupling of love and abuse as the origin of the trauma bond. But her story didn't end in childhood. As she came into adulthood, her childhood history affected her adult relationships and, most pointedly, her as a parent. How does experiencing narcissistic abuse as a child from a parent affect us as parents? Do we simply reproduce the cycles set down that we saw as a child, or can we make things different? In this episode, we are going to hear her share in an honest and insightful way, how enduring a narcissistically abusive childhood shaped her as a parent, the decisions she made, and how it unfolded and continued to unfold for her. You know, as interesting as the kids could sense there was something off with him. My friends were afraid of him, and he he's not something that he did on toward to them or any particular evidence of any kind. It was just so, I guess, the sixth sense that something was off. My best friend when I was growing up, she confided in me years later, So your dad was scary, really? You think so? Because he doesn't show that he shows a totally other persona obviously, but the adults, you know, hey, how's it got? Very friendly, very very friendly. My mom was just a quiet person. He didn't really take her out much, but he would take us all over the place. You would take us to family trips, and I will say again, he wasn't always a jerk, so to everybody else, it looked like we were just a happy, put together family. Another difficult thing for children with antagonistic or narcissistic parents is that disconnect between what a family looks like to the world and what is happening behind closed doors. In so many situations like this, the world thinks it's a functioning family, or even a happy family. That means that a child in these family systems feels gaslighted. If everyone thinks this is normal and happy, then I must be the one who has a problem. If I think this is bad. It also makes it less likely that a child will ask for help or even get help when they are older and in a better position to ask for it on their own. You know, it's interesting, and you talked about this earlier. This idea. Fifty percent of the time he was good, of the time he was bad, right, that's even harder because what it meant was could lead to more of a sense of guilt, more of a sense of self blame when things were bad, because he's showing that he can be good, So if he's then bad, it's got to be something I did, and he was saying it was something you did. He's the one who would snap at whatever tiny little thing you would do, something you would say, or something you would eat or whatever. But that fifty fifty actually couldn't be a more difficult kind of a split because even if it was bad good, you're like, Okay, this is a bad dude. But at fifty fifty, it's like a coin flip on what you're gonna get. And that makes the trauma bonding worse because you love them, You love that side that you imagine that they can be at their best. Yeah, so let's talk about your mother. Can I ask you this when you were fifteen and I know the two of you weren't getting along. Listen, Adolescent girls are extra and difficult, even in the best of circumstances. Okay, even when there's not an abusive dad and all that other stuff happening. Adolescent girls are tough. And you were an adolescent girl against that backdrop. Okay, so I get that things were difficult with your mom, but yet at fifteen you opted to go live with your father. What was that like for your mother? Do you do you ever ask her her knowing full well what you were walking into, and she finally came out with it. It's interesting now then talking about it, I realized she's very similar to my brother, and my brother is very similar to her, and where she keeps a lot to herself. I didn't know half of the stuff that was going on or how she felt, and she said it tore her heart out. She was actually really upset that I chose him over her. She's actually a really good person. She's a very logical, very rational. She is a rock when it comes to solid advice. So she couldn't understand why in the world that I would choose that over her. Was she worried for you? I'm sure she didn't say so in many words, but I'm absolutely were. So you had this interesting schism there where your mom wasn't sort of emotionally showy, She really kept kept her emotions shut down. She was not physically demonstrative, like I said. I don't know if she was always like this, even prior to her marriage. You know, we don't know, right, because being in a marriage like that could change a person in that way, could cut them off emotionally, even cut them out physically. Right, But that's neither here nor there, because for you, your mom wasn't emotionally demonstrative, she wasn't physically demonstrative. But your father was right. And so that must have been incredibly confusing because in a way, your father was meeting in need, even though in a twisted way that you weren't getting met from your mother, which is even more compounded by the fact that he lacked empathy. He didn't truly care about your situation, what you were feeling, what you were going through. There's been in numerous times where you would just again the beating and then I love you. Right, it's not just the hug, it's also the I love you. And when I would get on the phone with him, he would say it. And there came up point, I think when I hit adolescence where it felt like an empty show the words, and I realized he's just saying the words. He doesn't actually care, because if somebody actually cared, they wouldn't do what they were doing right correct? And that blew my mind that you can say, you know, love me, I love you, give me attention, here's a hug, here's kisses, and then ask how you were doing, but not actually cares. So lack of empathy, okay, we know that is a pillar and this thing called narcissism, all right, I mean most kids don't know that word. Right. When did that word come to you as whoa, this might be what happened with my father. You talk about lack of empathy, talking about disregular ation, you're talking about arrogance, you're talking about entitlement. You're talking about this idea that you have good days and bad days, which is very classical. And narcissism, the tension, the confusion, all the stuff we see in a narcissistic relationship. When did you start seeing it through that lens of narcissism. It was after I was an adult. My mom had sent me an article. I think it was signs or symptoms of narcissistic I don't know if the right correct term is sociopath, but that's what it said on the on the article. Of course, anybody writes anything, but there was a ton of symptoms and signs, and he had like nine or ten of them. And when I said lack of empathy, it actually said that on their lack of empathy. And I'm like, empathy like like feeling. Look what is that? And I actually looked it up and I was just like, holy crap, he doesn't he doesn't feel, or at least it's that's what it seems. I'm sure he. I mean, he feels angry, he's got to feel something, but he feels falling in love because it keeps doing that over and over again. Well his version of love. I mean, what's that definition for him? Pleasure validation, physical, materialistic, materially. Yeah, so I guess that must feel good, right. And empathy isn't just feeling. Empathy is the awareness of what someone else is going through, even if you haven't been through it yourself, and not just understanding it, but also in part feeling it. You're putting yourself, putting yourself in their position. Yeah. I noticed when he would get drunk, especially he lacked common sense. So I can'tpendpoint a particular situation, but I do know that I was aware enough he would disregard what everybody else was thinking. What they were doing, and he wouldn't put themselves in your shoes, so to speak, when you're trying to convey an issue or something that happened. And there were a few times. Actually I knew that I was in the right, and I tried to convey that to him, and he turned around and said, you know what, even if you think you're right, you take that beating and you learn something from it. So how is that right? It doesn't make any sense. How am I going to learn anything from that? Okay? So no, you're not going to learn anything from that. And once again, sometimes it was abuse got followed by a hug. Now, sometimes it was abuse got followed by a quote unquote lesson. Yes, all the time. So you have all of these patterns again that we think our narcissism. If your mom gives you that article, so obviously that framework also must have been how she was making sense of that relations Oh gosh, yes, because it was a revelation for her. It was okay, did it help her? It was the spark it, I mean, to a long road. She Obviously it's not just going to take a piece of paper to get your healthy or make you feel better. But it helped spark the conversation between her and I, and from that she could garner our perspective. We were able to have conversations, and that also helped heal our relationship as well, to realize, oh, we're not the problem. And I think for a long time she also she thought she was dumb. For the longest time, she thought she was an idiot and stupid and all this other These are stuff that she confided in me. And then when she went back to college at night and she got her degree, that degree was her validation. Oh my gosh, I'm actually really intelligent. I'm so much smarter than I thought I was. So I think it was just little bits along the way, but the article really sparked the conversation for sure. Right here she shares something that is almost universal among survivors of narcissistic relationships. For a long time, they feel stupid or dumb. In part that maybe because that was said to them in as many words for many years, either by a spouse or a parent, but also these relationships leave us doubting ourselves so much, blaming ourselves so much, that we slowly believe over time, through a long period of indoctrination that we are somehow lesser, that we aren't as smart or as skilled, and it becomes part of our identity. It's not unusual for survivors, especially after they get out of these relationships, to go back to school or advance in a career, or have other experiences that shed a light on the fact that not only are they not dumb, but that they're actually quite smart and wise. And for you as well, did it help you? It did? It allowed me to put myself outside the perspective of being in first person, like everything is happening to me, and then I realized, hang on, let's pull myself out and try to observe here. And that's that's also when I started writing my pros and cons list, like of what I like about my life, but I don't like about my life? What are the situations that he's put me through? This is how I feel it just starting to see when you see it on paper, it's a whole different part of your brain than just speaking at I'm so glad you said that, because one of the things I often tell survivors of narcissistic abuse is to put it on paper in any number of ways different lists, they can make ways, they can draw it out. What was it that you loved about this person? What was made what made the relationship unsettling? And see both of those things side by side, because when you see the good and the bad side by side, you can start to understand why you blame yourself, because one of the first steps to healing is to understand it's not you, it's really them. That his behavior was completely unacceptable, like there's nothing, nothing okay about it, right, But when you continue that same pattern, now you have to be accountable for your actions. Correct. And I didn't realize that my session will continue after this break. So how did that idea of once you become aware of it, you have to be accountable for your own patterns. Did that creep into your life as well? Or were you thinking about how he needed to be accountable, Like he may have done those things, but he is never accountable for doing those things. I was hyper focused on his wrongdoings for a long time. Interesting, and he's the reason I'm this way and he's And then I realized at some point that I have to take accountability from my actions. I have to let things go. You need to heal. But if you constantly rip off that band aid before it's healed. It just reopens the wound, so to speak. There are certain parts that I had to make peace with along the way, and it doesn't happen overnight. It's you've got to kind of chip away at it. But I realized that I was constantly blaming him. And then it's interesting how people can say certain phrases, and you've heard the phrases before, but in certain context it hits you differently and it resonates so deeply. And somebody had to something, how long are you going to blame him for something that you are now responsible for? What part were you responsible for? So it's almost like a diarrhea of the mouth when you're just being negative and complaining all the just constantly, my life sucks, my life, this my life. And then I had somebody I don't even think they were offending. I think they were just an acquaintance, but they said, how long are you going to sit there and blame him for everything that you're going through in life? Now? You know what, if I would be there with you, I would have actually taken that acquaintance on, because I think my response to that would be a little bit in the middle, which is he's actually incredibly culpable. He's incredibly responsible for the discontent you had with your life because you still didn't have a framework for it. And part of understanding what narcissistic abuse is calling it what it is, understanding how it affects people, how it affects your nervous system, how it affects how you think about the world, how you feel in the world, how you go through the world, unpacking that you have to go through that before you can then go and say Okay, yeah, now I'm getting this, and yeah, you were going to have diarrhea of the mouth sometimes because this stuff affects us, and it shaped how you went through the world. That shaped how you viewed yourself. I mean for your entire childhood, you were at some level taking some blame for some really really awful behavior. So for many people, that almost goes to a placehold and I guess I'm not a very good person. And you have to grow up quicker than other kids. Yes you do. There's no safety and so I would actually find I think that people will get there, but that how long you're going to do this? You know, how long you're gonna blame him for it as long as it takes to get to the other side, because you need some permission to say, I need to connect these dots and figure out why I'm struggling with this now. And by connecting these douts, which many even therapists won't do, they won't say that narcissistic personality and the parent affected you developmentally. There loath to do that. If we put too much responsibility on the person who experienced that, then they just don't have a framework and they're gonna keep blaming themselves. Oh my gosh, I'm still negative. I really am a bad person that could be. I guess I needed to hear that because it was the seed that kind of blossomed into all right, I'm an adult now, I am responsible for myself and my own actions. I can choose which path I decided to go down. So that was that was something that actually did help. But I understand what you're saying, and I understand where you're coming from. Well, who it struck me was you said it It fixed your nervous system, although it's not classically part of the sympathetic nervous system. This therapist named Pete Walker writes about the fawn response, where to fawn something like sort of oh and awe over someone, And Pete Walker would argue that people who grew up in abuse of childhoods, they would fawn over the narcissistic parent or the abuse of parent as a way to maintain an attachment and safety. So then as that child gets older, they're actually almost disgusted at themselves for having fawned over the very person who abused them, which can really result in a lot of self loathing, and as they go into adulthood, continue to fawn over people who abuse them. So you see what I'm saying. The entire sympathetic nervous system kind of gets hijacked by the experience of narcissistic abuse, and part of the healing from it is listening to those signals in yourself and saying, oh, this situation is reminding me of this old school and I got a slow down and feeling it in my body. And people say that's the past, Let that go, Let that go, Like, oh, Noah, as far as your body's can started, it was two seconds ago. Because it holds those memories in a very physiological way. Wow, that is a good point. Another thing I'd like to to mention is that when you were talking about fawning, I actually get really disgusted with people who do that. That's interesting when it's so much attention or so much frilly words or emotions, especially and I go into this, I don't want to say persona, but I almost feel proud of myself that I don't have emotions the longest time. I almost feel like like I'm not weakling like that. And I felt like you're weak because you're you're constantly crying or over in love, like who are you? You're you're you're in love, Get out, get over yourself, like that type of synesis. I don't know that i'd call that cynicism. I'd actually call that a normal trauma response, to be honest with you, because it's not unusual for people who are going through a post traumatic experience to face some challenges with emotional expression, with some folks feeling quite disregulated and reactive, a bit like your father or will have a really restricted range of emotion. And there's a real sense of control that comes from that too. I'm in complete control, I'm in complete possession. And for you, you also learned that to speak, your emotions to react. That was dangerous. So the idea that you have this all on, fully locked down and fully controlled, means safety. Yep, that resonated. That's safety means no emotion and its control. And because you knew emotion more often than not, could have set off a whole complex series of reactions. And your body still blames you for what happens. So it's really about retraining that. So one thing that I hear in your story was just so important is that you and your mom got to a better place, and that's not on common. Finally, the day comes where people are able to say, whoa, none of this was our fault, and I want my child to know this wasn't their fault, and there can be sort of a joining over that. But let me ask you this, you're a mom, how did having a history like this impact your ability to be a parent. I didn't realize that I was exhibiting similar patterns. I ended up with postpartum both times I had two children, and the first time I didn't recognize it. I just thought it was weird. It was almost like a switch one off, and I was just again that Diary of the Mouth where You're just like negative all the time. And it just would come in waves. And then I realized my oldest was mirroring back my patterns of behavior to me. You know, you catch yourself saying the same things that your parents say, right, and you go, oh my god, I'm my parent. And I would say things like you made me get angry, You're the reason that I'm so mad. And I would find myself flaming him for my frustration because you know, you tell him twenty times to do the same thing, like why aren't they getting it? Why don't they get it? And I know this is a normal mom thing. But when he started getting anger issues as he was growing older, it was incremental until he probably around like five or six, he started exhibiting the same anger issues and he didn't identify him. He couldn't identify his emotions. And I realized, I'm not good with my emotions how and my shortcomings are his shortcomings? What do I do? How do I get this information of what is he feeling? Why are you angry? Why are you frustrated? And I'm putting expectations on him that we're completely unreasonable, and I would minimize his telling me Mom, this is how I feel, or he just start crying all of a sudden, and I go, go to your room. I'll deal with this after you're done. Come out and then we'll start over. Or you can explain it to me after you're done. I can't. I would shut down when he would start his little crying fits, or he'd be fresh at He didn't know how to explain it right. He doesn't understand how to identify it. And I realized, I I still don't know how to identify it. So how do we both on my shortcomings? How do we both handle this? How do we heal this? What do we do? And I started realizing he is my mini me. He acts like I do. There was there's a whole bunch of other stuff that I recognize. I just realized that my patterns of behavior became his, and I was frustrated that I had turned him into me, and I got really upset. It was really an AHA moment when he mimicked me a couple of times and turned around to his brother. Especially his brother was a little baby, and he would say something that I normally say as a parent. I can't remember right off the top of my head, but I would almost gass him, so to speak, and it hurt and I saw it and I was like, I don't feel good. I actually feel really sick to my stomach. What did I become? What did I teach him? I've been doing this behavior and normalizing it and dismissing him more. It was more dismissive of his emotions more than anything. Or I'd yell, and I just caught myself constantly yelling like, why can't you put the dishes away? Why aren't you doing this? And I just can point and focus on the negatives instead of praising him for the positives, because that also happened to me. Again, that's not an excuse. I should be responsible for what's happening. And that's when I started becoming more and more aware. I think the clincher was there was one particular time that I expected him to not bring the spaghetti into the living room. There's carpet everywhere, and I was renting, and it was a very expensive carpet, and sure is anything, he spills the spaghetti sauce all over this silk carpet. It was not mine that I was renting, and I was liable for saw that I put expectations on myself, and then I put projected those expectations onto him and I lost it. I absolutely lost it. And that was when I was like, whoa, he's young, he's a kid. Why did I just do that? But it's almost like I couldn't stop myself or it didn't train myself to stop myself in the middle of yelling at him. So he's in tears, he's running to his room and like, why you know, you're that's so stupid. Why would you do that? I just told you three times in a row, please don't bring the spaghetti in there, and that's what it starts with the please, and then it starts and then I start getting more stern and then I reminded him, like, don't do that, and then it just I lose my mind. And kids push kids push your buttons, of course, but then that's when I realized. I was like, oh my god, I'm putting this expect like he's a kid, he's allowed to make mistakes. I'm angry because I put those expectations there and he didn't follow those expectations. But he's a kid. So when I saw that, and that was when it was the turning point. I was like, I need help, I need anger management. I need to really court martial myself and figure out how to heal and get to the root of the issue. What's really bothering me, what really was the problem. I eventually got the spaghetti sauce out of the carpet, thank god, but it felt like the world was over. I was like, oh my god, I can't pay six thousand dollars. I was freaking out. I was like, how do I get spaghetti out of a carpet, especially a silk on There's no way. So I think all those stats were really running through my head in the background, and really I was letting him pay for that, and it hurt as I was going through it. Something interesting that happens in this part of her story about the spaghetti sauce in the carpet is something that many survivors experience. First, the reactivity and the anger, and at that moment we feel like the narcissistic parent, and that is a horrible moment which can leave a survivor full of shame and self blame and even reinforce the idea that they were always the problem. But second is this idea of catastrophization when the bad thing happened, the sauces on the carpet, she went right too, And how will I get this clean? And the expanse, and the anxiety. When a child grows up with a narcissistic parent and comes up into adulthood, one of the most common outcomes in adulthood is anxiety about everything. Small things become big things quickly, and then the world often pathologizes survivors as adults. Oh, why do you make such a big thing out of everything? That is because in childhood a plate of spilled spaghetti would have been catastrophic. All of that then plays out in these scenarios in adulthood. Something spilled, something forgotten, something broken, Events that aren't that big a deal but could have been horrific with a narcissistic parent. Is it any wonder that survivors find themselves living with this unease and anxiety for a lifetime. It sounds like it was for a few years. You said yourself, you were gaslighting your kids, You were reactive to your kids. You would dismissed it to your kids. It took a few years. It seems like the spaghetti sauce incident sort of almost firmed it up. Did you connect the dots at that point and say, oh my gosh, I'm acting like my father. Yes, that's exactly because that reminded me of the time where he lost it and he threw huh, the whole dinner table up and like the spaghetti and everything went up into the ceiling. So it was it was overlapped, and that stame is still on the ceiling. That's so interesting because it was the same food and the differences. That stain is still on the ceiling, but you got to stain out of the carpet and in many ways psychologically, that's also what happened to whoa wow. Yeah, yes, and it took a while. I will say it's not the spaghetti, but but digging deep in to myself and peeling back those layers and really having a heart to heart and looking at myself in the mirror, like really getting to the root cause of my anger and my frustration and and to be aware. I think that's half the battle is being aware of when you're doing it, because you're already in it. How did you feel about yourself initially when you're like, oh my gosh, I'm like my father, disgusted, absolutely disgusted. It was I felt shameful, I felt dirt. What's so powerful and I'm so grateful that you are sharing the story is that I think a lot of people when they go through and I would characterize the kinds of abuse and narcissistic abuse you tolerated in childhood is severe. When people go through severe and narcissistic abuse and childhood, one of their great fears is first of all, they don't view themselves, well, I'm not a good person. I was to blame whatever, but then the fears I'm going to do this to my kids. And then you found yourself literally doing this to your kids. But you did catch it. And I think that to me, just like that spaghetti stain stuck in one place but not another, is sort of the ending of some of these intergenerational cycles, because unlike your father, there was a point at which you were able to say, oh my god, this is just a little kid, and I need to take responsibility. That's a moment your father never had. That's true. We will be right back with this conversation because unlike your father, there was a point at which you were able to say, oh my god, this is just a little kid. And I need to take responsibility. That's a moment your father never had. What did you do with that insight that these are kids? I need to check myself. I need to be the one who takes responsibility. What did you do with that insight? Once you had it? I started doing research on different tools, not only for myself, but also to let my kids express themselves freely without feeling that I'm being overbearing, without feeling like I'm being dominant. And I was able to at least for them, because again I'm still not a lot better than I was, but I'm still not good with the whole like touchy feeling emotions and stuff. But I made sure that I hug and kiss them all the time. I let them know that I love them, So that is something that has been a constant. I will say. What was new for me was allowing them to talk back, but in a respectful way. But I would let them have what we call the safe space to where I said the rules where there were no rules. I said, if you feel like I'm being unfair, I want you to tell me. I want you to let me know that I messed up. I want you to tell me how you are feeling, even if you can't identify it, just express yourself or say the situation. I think we started with saying the situation of what was bothering them, especially the older one. He had a hard time identifying himself really, and I allowed them this safe space to sit on my bed and say whatever was on their mind. They could curse. I let Normally don't do this because you have to be respectful, but I do. I will let them curse. I'll set them okay safe space. Yeah. So now to this day that we created that pattern, my older one he's a preteen and he'll open the door and he's had a rough day and mom safe space come on over, and so he's able to get it all out and I got do you feel better? Yes? Okay? Or like hell, he's dealing with a bully, or he's dealing with school grades or pressure, something along those lines, and I try to make sure that I'm objective enough, and I let him know here's a real life version of you know, there's gonna be bullies, There's gonna be jerks no matter where you go in life, and this might be how this bully is feeling. And that was part of my healing is learning introspection, learning to identify what that person could have been going through to put myself in their shoes. So I don't know what my father went through, but I imagine it must have been cyclical like myself, and maybe he also felt pressured. Maybe he also felt that competitiveness because he didn't get enough attention. So learning those aspects to life really helped me explain them to my kids, who then will also say, I understand why they believe me today. You know, I think that he's having trouble with his mom at home or some something along those lines. So we're able to talk things out, and I think that communication was key, and I'll let him tell me like, hey, no, mom, you went way overboard. Stop, take a deep breath, back up. But I also have to be responsible for me doing that as well, So I did a lot of on my own. Again, I wasn't able to really afford it, but I encourage everybody if you can, to see a therapist. Absolutely, if you feel you need a therapist, definitely see one. Me I lucked out with a small group of women who are very similar situations, abusive situations or very extreme circumstances. They all took different pieces of the puzzle. They're not like me. They experienced things differently, and we're able to be that support system to tell the other person like, oh, I went through that and this is what I found out. So we were able to go ahead and bounce off different ways to heal. Like in her child work was one of them. Make peace with my younger self who was missed. That was that was a long one, and there's meditation to ground to breathwork really helped with identifying and being aware of when I was angry. So when I would catch myself, I'd be like, okay, and you just step away, walk out of the room. Let me ask you this, because what are the issues you brought up with your dad? Was that he would react when you did like you didn't know what would set him off, so you would do something and he would get set off. I understand what you've gone with your son to think is great, creating a safe space, holding space for their emotion and all of that, but what about when they do something you don't like, Just like you and your brother would do things your dad didn't like, you'd lose it when your kids because all kids do things their parents don't like, what do you do now? When that happens, I walk into the other room, take a beat. When I feel like I'm level headed, take a deep breath, go into the room, and I try to get to their eye level. And again, this is just with what I was researching, what the tools I had to pull up. I tried different things at different times, but this seems to work, especially with the younger one when you're getting down on their level. I didn't realize me standing over them cause that dominant, overbearing feeling of how I felt when I was younger. My father is a lot taller than me, and I always felt like I was theminutive. I was small, I had I was powerless, that type of feeling. I didn't realize I was doing the same thing. So I get on his level, look him in the eyes, and I let him know, like listen, I asked you to do that, Swazi because it really helps Mommy. I have this and this and this and this and this to do. Could you please help me out where I'd explain things like we need to do our homework. I've asked you twenty times in a row to do your homework. We need to get sit down together, what's the reason that you are hesitant or like, oh, I asked them why they feel the need to ignore me, or why they feel the need to not do as I have asked, And I'll explain myself. I guess perhaps not everybody explains themselves, but I try to explain and why this is the way that it is, or I'll try to save them harding by telling them, hey, I wouldn't do that if I were you, because you could get hurt, or this or that the other like crossing the street without looking and they've done it three times in a row already, and I'm like, this is extremely dangerous. So those times especially are really hard. And I will say I'm not I'm very fallible, and there are times where, especially if it's fear induced, I'm like, get over here, what are you doing? Oh my god, and I lose it. So it's still a work in progress, but I will say it's very few and far between. It's amazing. And I think that that idea that you're not reacting to them, that's a huge step because that's the part where somehow you broke this intergenerational cycle of I'm seeing red, I'm going to lose it, and you've really committed yourself to accountability that you saw it, You recognize what you were doing to your kids. You did do it for a while and then you said no, no, no, no no, I'm not going to do this. I think it's an incredible reminder that these intergenerational cycles can be broken, that going through narcissistic abuse and childhood doesn't program you to only be one way. That these cycles are breakable. And you did a lot of this for yourself. It was very self guided and you found the resources and you did it, which is quite remarkable to re teach yourself gets what it is. Yeah, I understand you're in control of yourself, but it didn't realize like you can train yourself to react differently or not react at all. You can, but it takes a minute. Right initially you didn't do what you want to say that there's a moment when you do and you know, after the experience you've had, you're not always going to be perfect. And the key is also to have self compassion and self forgiveness in the face of that. So there's a big question for me, what is your relationship like with your father? Now? Are you nonexistent, non existent. Okay, non existent. So let me ask you this, because you're a mom now, when you look back at your childhood and what happened to you, what does it feel like to even think that someone could do this to a child? Does that make sense? Like sometimes we don't see these cycles clearly until we become parents ourselves, and then we say, somebody actually did that to a child. How has it reshaped how you think about your childhood to be a mother? That question is kind of twofold because I hate the this, but it's the old school way of doing things. And I wasn't the only person, and I found out there was a lot of people that also got hit with a belt that got the twitch or the switch. I think it's called got the switch. Yeah, and I've had It's funny. I resonate a lot with older vets and they also experienced something similar in an upbringing, So I almost kind of a sandwich between generations where it was normal is normalized. So to me, my upbringing felt normalized, and even now looking at it, I'm just like, that's the generation it was. But me as a mother, there's no way I don't understand how you wouldn't at least try to get some help. I wouldn't understand how you wouldn't at least look at yourself and go, okay, is there another way to look at this. I understand that there was no internet back then or you know, dial up, but now you have all these resources. Why couldn't you reflect on yourself. It's still is mind boggle because I would never get to that extreme ever, And I was able to catch myself when I started getting into those patterns, not started, but I was exhibiting the same patterns at least an aggression or an anger. So I don't understand somebody so book smart, somebody so academically intelligent, that you couldn't recognize it. And like you said, and even now I'm forming newer opinions because you had said that clearly this was a choice, absolutely, because otherwise did kept screaming at the guy on the phone. And I think even that ability to have the nice face in public but then go off on people behind closed doors, that shows you it's a choice. If the person was screaming at you in the middle of the restaurant, in the middle of the street all times, then I'd say, okay, we might be dealing with something different. But the key to narcissism is the choice piece to it. And remember the elements of your story, the physical abuse, all of that horrific enough, but the idea channel piece, the piece that brings in this problematic personality pattern. To consider is that fifty percent of the time it was okay piece of it, the I'm going to abuse you, now, come give me a hug piece of it. The complete and utter lack of awareness that this wasn't okay piece of it, even despite having the training in psychology. Right, there is a choice part of this, and I think everyone wants to believe, oh no, a narcissistic person they have no idea what they're doing. Sure they do, because if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to turn it on and off. Second back, Yeah right, And I hope that also lifts some of the self blame because I think a lot of people say, well, maybe this is just somebody who has such a problem that they can't catch themselves. And now I'm saying, no, they made a choice, and some people say, Okay, that's helping me lift some of the blame off myself. I will say a while back, probably about ten years back, which helped me immensely was somebody said, stop expecting somebody who doesn't have the capability in their tool to act like a father. Like they're true, they just don't have the capability to exhibit themselves as a father, and that kind of if they don't even have that in their little tool belt that they can hold out and be aware. And but then there's also the side, the psychology side, where you're saying like this is a choice. But at least at that time, that helped me like, Okay, it's not my fault. I'm not to blame right, little tidbits along the way. It doesn't mean that the abuse was any less hurtful, But I think that what really amplifies the abuse is believing that somehow you were responsible for the terrible things that happened to you. I mean, your story is so powerful to me because I think a lot of people will see themselves in the story, maybe different parts of it, parts of it, maybe true parts of it, not the really difficult childhood that happens when you have such an antagonistic, conflictual parent. I think the harder part is to be willing to be self reflective when you start seeing those patterns pop up in yourself as a parent, because some people will even feel so ashamed that they'll hide, and by hiding, they'll keep doing it. You actually received it as a wake up call and said, I, yeah, that wasn't cool, and this has got to stop. And I think it's a reminder that these cycles can end, and that with your children they'll say okay, mom at a moment, and now I see it. You may have a very different template for your mother, who you once judged as not being present, but now to see after what she went through, her behavior in some ways makes sense. It allows each generation to have a more holistic understanding. So I can't thank you enough for sharing your story. It could not have been easy to share. I could feel it even in my body as you were saying it, so I can't imagine what it was like for you. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I hope that this helps somebody, maybe somebody who feels or maybe they don't recognize that they're going through this, because that's the hardest part is to recognize that this is what it is. So thank you. I really appreciate. It's my pleasure and it's also a reminder that anybody who was experienced narcissistic abuse in childhood, it's a real wake up call that as you go into your own parenting journey that you get the help, the tools, and the support you need because it's so easy to hide but recognize something real happened to you, and you absolutely can be a magnificent parent, but sometimes you just need someone to show you a blueprint and a roadmap that you never shown in the first place. Here are some takeaways from my conversation with today's guest. The metaphor of the spaghetti sauce stains in this story are powerful and are actually a really important takeaway. Her parents reactive rage that resulted in the spaghetti stains on the ceiling were never addressed or acknowledged, and it never changed, just like the stain that persisted on the ceiling of their home years later, when her son spilled the spaghetti sauce. Her angry reaction snapped her into accountability. She recognized that she was reacting like her father, and more importantly, that it wasn't okay, and then she began the hard work of finding new ways to respond, addressing the legacy of having a parent like this and creating a safe space for her children. The metaphor of her getting the spaghetti stain permanently off the carpet wasn't lost on me. We can address these patterns and clean them up. In my next takeaway, intergenerational cycles of abuse when we recognize them, can be devastating, and there can be strong feelings of shame, even disgust and self blame when a parent finds themselves replicating toxic cycles from their childhood. This story, like many others, shows us that while having a toxic parent can be a risk for repeating these cycles, mindful awareness and accountability means that we are not doomed to repeat them. But a key ingredient is also self compassion. To be self forgiving, be aware that it is almost expectable that at times we would respond as a parent did, and that our children's behavior may even raise anxiety and fear from our own childhood. It's so crucial that parents who had narcissistic parents and may find that some of these patterns seep into their own parenting, catch the cycles and also recognize that mindfulness and self compassion can help to end these cycles. You can create for your children what you had needed for yourself. In my next takeaway, everyone who has survived in narcissistic or antagonistic parents struggles with how to approach these relationships with their parents in adulthood. Our guests chose no contact, but her story is also a reminder that there is no right choice. You need to choose what's best for you. She made her choice after her parents made numerous attempts to come back into her life, but she saw no change and no accountability. It's so easy for people to believe that there's one right answer, no contact or stay in touch or forgive There isn't. Only you know your story. The key is to not judge yourself as you make a decision that feels right for yourself or your own children if you have them. It is important to make a decision that is based in painful truths. These personality patterns are not likely to change, so it's important to not make a choice from a trauma bonded space of maybe it'll just change if I do this or that, just like you did as a child. Instead, whatever choice you make going forward has to be informed by radical acceptance and realistic expectations. But what's most important is that you feel that you are making a choice for yourself and not being pulled into the guilt that you owe something to a narcissistic parent. A big thank you to our exact, gittive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valon Jethro, Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.