You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very badly because you're like.

If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very badly because you're like.

But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in much more of a hurry than people who are on time.

But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in much more of a hurry than people who are on time.

Hello and welcome.

Hello and welcome.

To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.

To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.

Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.

Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.

I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, two politicians walk into a podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why. A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.

And on the show today, two politicians walk into a podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why. A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.

In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby months ago and she's only.

In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby months ago and she's only.

Just telling us about it.

Just telling us about it.

In September last year, the singer announced on stage that she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it. There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article where she announced it.

In September last year, the singer announced on stage that she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it. There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article where she announced it.

It's funny. I went back in her socials and she doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable. When was the baby born? Do we know?

It's funny. I went back in her socials and she doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable. When was the baby born? Do we know?

So?

So?

The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think she's now louder?

The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think she's now louder?

Obviously?

Obviously?

She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she was thinking, you know, am I going to be a good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself to be patient and give as much love and kindness to myself as my body was changing holl love that. Do you think that this is indicative of sort of how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship with social media evolving?

She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she was thinking, you know, am I going to be a good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself to be patient and give as much love and kindness to myself as my body was changing holl love that. Do you think that this is indicative of sort of how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship with social media evolving?

Yes?

Yes?

Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy, it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about what her public life is and her private life is. But one of the things that's amazing about this, I think is that you're seeing it a little bit in real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce them on socials, or they don't announce them at all, and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby. Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's a very confident, boundaried flex almost.

Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy, it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about what her public life is and her private life is. But one of the things that's amazing about this, I think is that you're seeing it a little bit in real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce them on socials, or they don't announce them at all, and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby. Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's a very confident, boundaried flex almost.

It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it. When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah, it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you haven't been doing that.

It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it. When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah, it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you haven't been doing that.

Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy for eight years.

Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy for eight years.

Well when you were the editor?

Well when you were the editor?

Did you get around that?

Did you get around that?

Because there was no internet and I was the editor of magazine and I just didn't mention it.

Because there was no internet and I was the editor of magazine and I just didn't mention it.

How about it worked, did anyone?

How about it worked, did anyone?

Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell my parents and also the father of the child, but I didn't have to And so it came as a big shock to a lot of people to realize that I was actually a parent.

Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell my parents and also the father of the child, but I didn't have to And so it came as a big shock to a lot of people to realize that I was actually a parent.

Because that basically says that you know at that time, who you were like in your private life didn't affect your job, as in, you don't need to know all the details of my life to know that I'm a good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are, that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us, I mean I think people are.

Because that basically says that you know at that time, who you were like in your private life didn't affect your job, as in, you don't need to know all the details of my life to know that I'm a good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are, that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us, I mean I think people are.

I think it was also though I was I mean, god, it was an easier time to have kids because you didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world, whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young, I was twenty four, I was out of step with all of my peers, and I think that I needed some time to process what it meant for my identity, which I think was interesting a little bit about what jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.

I think it was also though I was I mean, god, it was an easier time to have kids because you didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world, whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young, I was twenty four, I was out of step with all of my peers, and I think that I needed some time to process what it meant for my identity, which I think was interesting a little bit about what jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.

Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming out in the next week or two, so I think that she realized that she needed to tell a brand story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah, probably got to tell you that I've got a baby, but I'm going to do it totally on my terms. And I'm not just going to give you the interview because I feel.

Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming out in the next week or two, so I think that she realized that she needed to tell a brand story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah, probably got to tell you that I've got a baby, but I'm going to do it totally on my terms. And I'm not just going to give you the interview because I feel.

And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.

And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.

No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.

No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.

Please have empathy.

Please have empathy.

Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't want to.

Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't want to.

Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome to No Filter.

Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome to No Filter.

It's great to be here.

It's great to be here.

Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your pitch to them?

Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your pitch to them?

We recognize there is more to do and my government will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one of the key differences between my government and our opponents is whether we take gender equity seriously.

We recognize there is more to do and my government will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one of the key differences between my government and our opponents is whether we take gender equity seriously.

Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite you to come back.

Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite you to come back.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Deal.

Deal.

Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which is to improve the world for women and girls, yes, I would like to discuss with you what you have done to that end.

Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which is to improve the world for women and girls, yes, I would like to discuss with you what you have done to that end.

Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation that continues on for the year about what we can do to make lives for women and young girls better.

Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation that continues on for the year about what we can do to make lives for women and young girls better.

The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton, Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend. It may have sounded like they were all together. They actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.

The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton, Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend. It may have sounded like they were all together. They actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.

Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the second can't be shown.

Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the second can't be shown.

Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.

Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.

But have to press one button then another one, you can't press them.

But have to press one button then another one, you can't press them.

Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first, the Dutton but Dune button.

Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first, the Dutton but Dune button.

The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that we know is that we'll be going to the polls sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard, we continue with the election campaign that you have. When you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios, including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this very studio is the room where it happened. The US election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing might be playing out here, because I mean it's a no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's the first most liberal leader who has since now come Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number of times we asked how did that turn out for you? Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of the interviews?

The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that we know is that we'll be going to the polls sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard, we continue with the election campaign that you have. When you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios, including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this very studio is the room where it happened. The US election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing might be playing out here, because I mean it's a no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's the first most liberal leader who has since now come Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number of times we asked how did that turn out for you? Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of the interviews?

I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an enormous fan of her work and as I was listening, I thought how fresh it was to listen to her conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes. I don't know what her preference is. I know what her opinions are about certain things, but.

I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an enormous fan of her work and as I was listening, I thought how fresh it was to listen to her conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes. I don't know what her preference is. I know what her opinions are about certain things, but.

Do you think that's important?

Do you think that's important?

Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about the US example, and I think that that's probably the way in where which the US election is going to influence Australia the most is that this will be the podcast election. And what happened there is that it was almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a particular party would take on a Trump or take on a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.

Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about the US example, and I think that that's probably the way in where which the US election is going to influence Australia the most is that this will be the podcast election. And what happened there is that it was almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a particular party would take on a Trump or take on a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.

Go.

Go.

They didn't hold them to any sort of account.

They didn't hold them to any sort of account.

They didn't really part of the campaign.

They didn't really part of the campaign.

They were part of the campaign. And to me there were points at which I went, is this just propaganda if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling over this, that there is the art of the political interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel like I have the training to be able to sit there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a key part of that.

They were part of the campaign. And to me there were points at which I went, is this just propaganda if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling over this, that there is the art of the political interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel like I have the training to be able to sit there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a key part of that.

I was going to say that you say it's fresh that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be. It was very important that.

I was going to say that you say it's fresh that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be. It was very important that.

The journal is not on podcast.

The journal is not on podcast.

But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of thrown that out of the window a little bit.

But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of thrown that out of the window a little bit.

Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like such an American way of talking about it, because we also don't vote for the prime minister.

Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like such an American way of talking about it, because we also don't vote for the prime minister.

We vote for someone now are electric.

We vote for someone now are electric.

But if you think that every liberal voter is a racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong. And if you think that every labor voter is a woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like, I listened to people and they feel like my friends, and I don't just want people telling me who to vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it felt really important to me.

But if you think that every liberal voter is a racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong. And if you think that every labor voter is a woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like, I listened to people and they feel like my friends, and I don't just want people telling me who to vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it felt really important to me.

I think some people do, though, what someone to to vote for.

I think some people do, though, what someone to to vote for.

Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less, that was my first. So I got to choose which one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going to listen to that one because I know Less, because I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my own leanings, and I found that enlightening.

Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less, that was my first. So I got to choose which one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going to listen to that one because I know Less, because I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my own leanings, and I found that enlightening.

The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when you do what Mom and Mia just did and say we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually, what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't been as much as you might imagine for Mom and Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I don't want to hear from that person. How very dare you when it comes to this level of politics.

The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when you do what Mom and Mia just did and say we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually, what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't been as much as you might imagine for Mom and Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I don't want to hear from that person. How very dare you when it comes to this level of politics.

Talk about the word platforming because these are political they are voted by the Australian people.

Talk about the word platforming because these are political they are voted by the Australian people.

Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing to say when you're talking about like the people who are going to be who are or are going to be prime ministers you need to put But what I wanted to say is so there are people who are uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it. You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people agree with me good. What if I listen to an interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever. I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to this place where we think and actually, I don't think it's new. I think that I grew up in a very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh at any joke they told, even if it was the funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important to push ourselves to go if my values and my beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not going to be swung by a guy not being a devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact, it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.

Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing to say when you're talking about like the people who are going to be who are or are going to be prime ministers you need to put But what I wanted to say is so there are people who are uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it. You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people agree with me good. What if I listen to an interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever. I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to this place where we think and actually, I don't think it's new. I think that I grew up in a very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh at any joke they told, even if it was the funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important to push ourselves to go if my values and my beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not going to be swung by a guy not being a devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact, it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.

I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's in their job description that they have to be completely partial. They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased that way.

I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's in their job description that they have to be completely partial. They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased that way.

A lot is.

A lot is.

Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters, which is different to journalists. You have to look at what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said, how very dare you.

Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters, which is different to journalists. You have to look at what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said, how very dare you.

Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.

Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.

So right wing, they said, and that you should just speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find, and what we have found is that when people have a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in their ears, and you don't agree with them about something that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting. Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant, the Greens leader, and they were like very much together, and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.

So right wing, they said, and that you should just speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find, and what we have found is that when people have a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in their ears, and you don't agree with them about something that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting. Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant, the Greens leader, and they were like very much together, and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.

And that's one way of doing it, and as you say, a way that I actually respect. But I think that in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know, demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both of them. And you know, we have this way of talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way things are, and you know what, on climate change every now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know, and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.

And that's one way of doing it, and as you say, a way that I actually respect. But I think that in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know, demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both of them. And you know, we have this way of talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way things are, and you know what, on climate change every now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know, and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.

Might just have different priorities to Jesse.

Might just have different priorities to Jesse.

Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics. You know what, you can think what you like about politicians, but I don't like that we would make assumptions about the people who vote for them. Because if it was as simple as rich people vote like this and poor people vote like this, white people vote like this, and people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's not that simple, really.

Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics. You know what, you can think what you like about politicians, but I don't like that we would make assumptions about the people who vote for them. Because if it was as simple as rich people vote like this and poor people vote like this, white people vote like this, and people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's not that simple, really.

Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A lot of people say, we all like to think we're deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you. You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice. We are very much a victim of our demographics. But the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And I don't mean that in a way to any way. Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it was like there was policy talk, but then there was the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton was very interesting, probably because we know least about him in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before. His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating about his background and his parents, But that story is now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton, I feel, for a lot of people is a bit of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings about him based on what you do know. But I found that really interesting and what they were both very good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And what was just talking about was about how your life experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on. Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a police officer and about being exposed to the sides of our society. I guess that a lot of people get to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence, about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now you can think what you want about that, you can think what you want about whether or not that's a good or a healthy way to see the world. But there's no question and Albo and again this is such a well known story now, but his story of coming up where he came up in social housing with the single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that, because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.

Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A lot of people say, we all like to think we're deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you. You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice. We are very much a victim of our demographics. But the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And I don't mean that in a way to any way. Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it was like there was policy talk, but then there was the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton was very interesting, probably because we know least about him in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before. His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating about his background and his parents, But that story is now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton, I feel, for a lot of people is a bit of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings about him based on what you do know. But I found that really interesting and what they were both very good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And what was just talking about was about how your life experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on. Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a police officer and about being exposed to the sides of our society. I guess that a lot of people get to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence, about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now you can think what you want about that, you can think what you want about whether or not that's a good or a healthy way to see the world. But there's no question and Albo and again this is such a well known story now, but his story of coming up where he came up in social housing with the single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that, because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.

I think they both went in with different jobs to do. I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people don't know who he is, and so I think he was a little bit more tentative, and his job was to make people think that he's more human than perhaps they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he had to do was to be I am a serious person and I can be strong, and so he was very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which is also easy to do when you are the Prime minister and you've got.

I think they both went in with different jobs to do. I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people don't know who he is, and so I think he was a little bit more tentative, and his job was to make people think that he's more human than perhaps they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he had to do was to be I am a serious person and I can be strong, and so he was very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which is also easy to do when you are the Prime minister and you've got.

Good ability in a record.

Good ability in a record.

Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think they both succeeded at what they had to do in very different ways.

Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think they both succeeded at what they had to do in very different ways.

And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap, he had to show himself as strong and maybe there was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had to show. And I think that that's probably a bit of a blueprint for what we might see going forward in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world. I think we're going to be hearing a lot from these two men between now and April. In a moment, are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new word for that, and apparently it is not good for your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children? Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient, irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness. In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency. Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans, your body continues to release those chemicals and it is not good for you. Being in a state of constant urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that being in a high state of cortisol can lead to multiple health concerns over the course of a life.

And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap, he had to show himself as strong and maybe there was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had to show. And I think that that's probably a bit of a blueprint for what we might see going forward in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world. I think we're going to be hearing a lot from these two men between now and April. In a moment, are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new word for that, and apparently it is not good for your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children? Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient, irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness. In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency. Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans, your body continues to release those chemicals and it is not good for you. Being in a state of constant urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that being in a high state of cortisol can lead to multiple health concerns over the course of a life.

Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed, I also feel worried and anxious.

Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed, I also feel worried and anxious.

If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because you're late.

If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because you're late.

But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I mean much more of a hurry than people who are on time because I'm constantly late.

But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I mean much more of a hurry than people who are on time because I'm constantly late.

Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you relate to hurry.

Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you relate to hurry.

Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent. I never leave enough time to get places in some areas of my life more than others. But I always feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and little lights started going off for me because one of the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start like in my mind I've portioned out the day in like hours, like I've got this much time to do this, and if I do that, and then I do this, and then I have to talk to myself about no, you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It will be all right if you don't. I remember in our old office, Well it will on the weekend when I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter at this place and maybe clean the house so we don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.

Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent. I never leave enough time to get places in some areas of my life more than others. But I always feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and little lights started going off for me because one of the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start like in my mind I've portioned out the day in like hours, like I've got this much time to do this, and if I do that, and then I do this, and then I have to talk to myself about no, you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It will be all right if you don't. I remember in our old office, Well it will on the weekend when I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter at this place and maybe clean the house so we don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.

Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards, and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even you powerble. You have seen Holly.

Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards, and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even you powerble. You have seen Holly.

She doesn't ramble.

She doesn't ramble.

I've never seen her walk slowly.

I've never seen her walk slowly.

She's on stage half.

She's on stage half.

Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.

Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.

You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know exactly why this is the case. I know what causes harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you would read a newspaper, you would get to the end of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know the news for today. You would listen to a radio news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come to the end of that. You would do a day of work, and then you would go home. Things would end. But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty four seven without doing anything else. You never get to the end of the news, you never get to the end of anything. You never get to the end of work because you can take it home with you.

You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know exactly why this is the case. I know what causes harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you would read a newspaper, you would get to the end of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know the news for today. You would listen to a radio news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come to the end of that. You would do a day of work, and then you would go home. Things would end. But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty four seven without doing anything else. You never get to the end of the news, you never get to the end of anything. You never get to the end of work because you can take it home with you.

In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah, it is so status validating. There is status, and I've found this going from work to then a very different pace of the day when I was on maternity leave, and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff, but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I think that that is why as well. The shifting of the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's on this road when I'm on my way home, like every day, and then I go, you're on your way home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.

In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah, it is so status validating. There is status, and I've found this going from work to then a very different pace of the day when I was on maternity leave, and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff, but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I think that that is why as well. The shifting of the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's on this road when I'm on my way home, like every day, and then I go, you're on your way home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.

The reason why is because you're wanting to get home to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're racing because you feel like you're late for work. So I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares. You are always stealing time from someone or something, and you always have that sense of if I don't get home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my work or whatever you're obligation.

The reason why is because you're wanting to get home to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're racing because you feel like you're late for work. So I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares. You are always stealing time from someone or something, and you always have that sense of if I don't get home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my work or whatever you're obligation.

Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years that I had little kids and a busy job were the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody when they've got kids who need them that much, and the schedule that are required that got to be here at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the rib and meeting and then this is a very high level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But like the world moves on in times change and maybe you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever it is, and you don't have to be in charge of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly for women, but not only to kick yourself out of hurry sickness.

Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years that I had little kids and a busy job were the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody when they've got kids who need them that much, and the schedule that are required that got to be here at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the rib and meeting and then this is a very high level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But like the world moves on in times change and maybe you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever it is, and you don't have to be in charge of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly for women, but not only to kick yourself out of hurry sickness.

Did you say that, replace it with other things?

Did you say that, replace it with other things?

Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose. I do that, and I see people do that in retirement, and I see I have felt it on my own and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not at work because I'm just like, this is making me feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?

Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose. I do that, and I see people do that in retirement, and I see I have felt it on my own and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not at work because I'm just like, this is making me feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?

Do you want to know?

Do you want to know?

Yes?

Yes?

Just to overcome it all right?

Just to overcome it all right?

Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?

Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?

Mindfulness, holliod.

Mindfulness, holliod.

What you have to do is called and I liked this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you do is you focus on the here and now. I do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're in the car, just be in the moment, because when you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're always in the next thing and the next thing, the next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry? And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?

What you have to do is called and I liked this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you do is you focus on the here and now. I do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're in the car, just be in the moment, because when you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're always in the next thing and the next thing, the next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry? And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?

Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was going to say I made a note. Kate said, I was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter, and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.

Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was going to say I made a note. Kate said, I was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter, and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.

The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So this is about I actually heard them talking about this on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day, this is a message to myself twenty eight things on your to do list which you're not going to achieve. You're not only going to feel like a failure by the end of the day, but every minute will be defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when it's not. Some of them are quite little things that could go on a different list.

The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So this is about I actually heard them talking about this on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day, this is a message to myself twenty eight things on your to do list which you're not going to achieve. You're not only going to feel like a failure by the end of the day, but every minute will be defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when it's not. Some of them are quite little things that could go on a different list.

What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.

What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.

And you're better off to go what are the three urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I need to do? And then put them on the list and then kind of work out maybe every day you do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than treating everything with the same level of urgency.

And you're better off to go what are the three urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I need to do? And then put them on the list and then kind of work out maybe every day you do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than treating everything with the same level of urgency.

You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed this if you ever when you leave the city and you go to a small town and you order a coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?

You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed this if you ever when you leave the city and you go to a small town and you order a coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?

And then you get.

And then you get.

Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization. The people who don't live in cities have got all the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true. But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around a whole lot of other people who've got it too, so that when you are in the car you're always like got to get my car, one car in front, got to get my car. Or you're in the queue at the shop and there are four people ahead of you, and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a smaller population and less of that around you all the time, it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that car goes in front of me, like there's going to be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for the fact that our jobs just got harder these past few days. The King of England has got a podcast, Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of Sussex has got a new podcast.

Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization. The people who don't live in cities have got all the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true. But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around a whole lot of other people who've got it too, so that when you are in the car you're always like got to get my car, one car in front, got to get my car. Or you're in the queue at the shop and there are four people ahead of you, and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a smaller population and less of that around you all the time, it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that car goes in front of me, like there's going to be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for the fact that our jobs just got harder these past few days. The King of England has got a podcast, Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of Sussex has got a new podcast.

Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?

Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?

To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've got to get me as take on this in a second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake, everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all of them.

To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've got to get me as take on this in a second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake, everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all of them.

Of course.

Of course.

Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's called Imo in my opinion, it's.

Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's called Imo in my opinion, it's.

Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah, but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.

Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah, but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.

And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting, and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I say that's what I does, so back off. Which and Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.

And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting, and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I say that's what I does, so back off. Which and Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.

Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day and before nine am I had half a dozen a dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes, you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders. Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female founders about how to start a business with the idea that she's starting her business and she wants some tips and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day and before nine am I had half a dozen a dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes, you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders. Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female founders about how to start a business with the idea that she's starting her business and she wants some tips and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

Late since she's already launched her business.

Late since she's already launched her business.

Well it's not going that well, it's on.

Well it's not going that well, it's on.

All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's beautifully said Jesse.

All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's beautifully said Jesse.

You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened, because the success of the King of England's podcast.

You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened, because the success of the King of England's podcast.

Will only lift our boat.

Will only lift our boat.

Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and everyone else's many opinions about it.

Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and everyone else's many opinions about it.

Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.

Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.

Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic. We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but the pain of being a parent to an autistic child is not the child, it's the world. The pain is seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed and out of control, and there was nothing you can do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words, of watching them struggle to express things that come so easily to others. That's the way people look at you in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to slow down for them. And however hard it is for me, I know they're doing it so much tougher.

Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic. We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but the pain of being a parent to an autistic child is not the child, it's the world. The pain is seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed and out of control, and there was nothing you can do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words, of watching them struggle to express things that come so easily to others. That's the way people look at you in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to slow down for them. And however hard it is for me, I know they're doing it so much tougher.

I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So, I've written a sensible thing I was going to say, but even just listening to that grab again just makes me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open letter on his podcast. But that was a video that was on social media to parents of kids with autism, and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale. There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral. The majority of it has been positive from parents in similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes, it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child, sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful. It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how to be their advocate and their protector as well as their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally. And then there's been some pushback from those who resent any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter, Hugh made sure to let people know that he had consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids. He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis, and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion. And as I said, I don't want to be another person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked in those shoes and still does, I want to say that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative about disability or trying to claim that in some kind of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child. And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people to tell you just how right he got it, because it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up and gets on with it more than a parent with a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse, do you think that one of the reasons that video got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in that is also a father rather than a mother, and that almost contributes to the impact.

I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So, I've written a sensible thing I was going to say, but even just listening to that grab again just makes me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open letter on his podcast. But that was a video that was on social media to parents of kids with autism, and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale. There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral. The majority of it has been positive from parents in similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes, it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child, sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful. It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how to be their advocate and their protector as well as their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally. And then there's been some pushback from those who resent any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter, Hugh made sure to let people know that he had consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids. He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis, and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion. And as I said, I don't want to be another person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked in those shoes and still does, I want to say that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative about disability or trying to claim that in some kind of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child. And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people to tell you just how right he got it, because it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up and gets on with it more than a parent with a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse, do you think that one of the reasons that video got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in that is also a father rather than a mother, and that almost contributes to the impact.

I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop more shit on the Internet than men do as a general point, but I actually don't think so. I think that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he was a father or a mother. I think there's something to be said for the time of year that he wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has meant a time of great change for kids with autism. Often can be really, really hard, and I think that there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so that's why it struck a particular chord.