You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on out loud as Hi, it's Holly here and I'm popping up on your Sunday to drop an episode of the other show that I love to do. You might have heard of it. It's called MID. It's Conversations for gen X women who are anything but but really it's a show for anyone who loves an interesting chat, smart woman and this one is one of my favorites of the current season. We're a little bit past halfway through the latest season of Mid, and there are some amazing conversations on it, even if I say so myself, Like what happens when your mother moves in with you and ruins your life? That's a good one. And this one with Rachel Griffiths, whose mother did not move in, but who talks really honestly about the sabbatical that she and her husband took from life to make sure that they weren't going to be one of those couples who, as soon as the kids finish school, decide to break up. Rachel Griffiths, as you know, Muriel's wedding, all the thing ride like a girl, total control. She's an Australian icon. She's lived a lot of lives. She's been through that whole Hollywood Awards show spectacle in her early career. She's been a director and a producer, and she knows a lot about being a grown up woman in Hollywood. She's so smart. It's such a good conversation and it's very funny. And she also has one relationship trick that I know a few listeners have written down and put on their fridge, and I bet you do too. So enjoy this conversation with Rachel Griffiths and subscribe to MID wherever you get your podcasts. The nineties I was there, so were you if you're MID, and everyone's welcome at this chaotic table. So it's not law, but if you truly fit the gen X definition the nineties was likely or misspent youth era. I was nineteen to twenty nine. In that decade, A lot of things happened for me, for the world, for the culture, Grunge, britpop lads, Friends, Rave Slackers, Tarantino, Clueless, Titanic, Whitney, Alanis, the Spice Girls. I remember watching Thelma and Louise and thinking that feminism had triumphed. Things were sorted. I remember swooning over Keanu saving Sandra from a speeding bus, being unperturbed by Gwyneth's head in a box in seven, seeing Cameron Diaz her hair sky Highwood sperm in There's Something about Mary, and not thinking that was a gross humiliation. I had a lot of adventures in the nineties, a lot of misadventures too. I fell in love a couple of times. I got my heart broken, I broke a couple myself. I made some complicated decisions, I traveled across the world, like all of our twenties. Perhaps it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, but it was a time. I remember watching Muriel's wedding. It was the same year that I saw Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, A couple of years after I saw Strictly Ballroom and Romper Stomper. Why was a Mancunian live in London watching movies made on the opposite side of the planet. Well, it was my job. My first proper magazine job was for a publication for Ossie's and Kiwi's. Living and working in London, and I suppose that working there started the rest of my life, not that I knew that at the time. What I did, though, is that these movies were incredible, and everybody everywhere watched them, washing up from a sea of cool girls, hot girls, crazy pixie dream girls. Muriel's Wedding was about the traps set for women, and it had abba, but it also had spiky, dark edges and tragic undertones, sometimes lost among the memories of the catchphrases and the bad dancing, a bit like the nineties in general. Really, the boundaries of our eras are only really clear in hindsight, no matter how much we might want to declare our current status. I'm in my mid era. Obviously it's complicated and confusing here, but it's also full of glorious relief and regrowth, a little bit like a midlife bush that hasn't been lost to laser. But did I know when all the other eras stopped and started, and did I know when I was in them just how much change was going to come? Of course not, But how do you view your eras from the distance of mid Are you compassionate to that version of you? Scathing, angry at what she had to put up with. Do you wish she'd done more or less? About more or less? Do you miss her? Do you smile about that nineties version of you who thought she was free sexually, professionally, but really was dodging errant hands and mouths, being talked and passed over, being ranked and rated, always having to prove that, yes, you could take a joke, Yes you could put your pesky feminine parts aside to work like a man, drink like a man, and have sex like a man. Yeah. Look, it was a weird era, and here we are looking back at it.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on out loud as Hi, it's Holly here and I'm popping up on your Sunday to drop an episode of the other show that I love to do. You might have heard of it. It's called MID. It's Conversations for gen X women who are anything but but really it's a show for anyone who loves an interesting chat, smart woman and this one is one of my favorites of the current season. We're a little bit past halfway through the latest season of Mid, and there are some amazing conversations on it, even if I say so myself, Like what happens when your mother moves in with you and ruins your life? That's a good one. And this one with Rachel Griffiths, whose mother did not move in, but who talks really honestly about the sabbatical that she and her husband took from life to make sure that they weren't going to be one of those couples who, as soon as the kids finish school, decide to break up. Rachel Griffiths, as you know, Muriel's wedding, all the thing ride like a girl, total control. She's an Australian icon. She's lived a lot of lives. She's been through that whole Hollywood Awards show spectacle in her early career. She's been a director and a producer, and she knows a lot about being a grown up woman in Hollywood. She's so smart. It's such a good conversation and it's very funny. And she also has one relationship trick that I know a few listeners have written down and put on their fridge, and I bet you do too. So enjoy this conversation with Rachel Griffiths and subscribe to MID wherever you get your podcasts. The nineties I was there, so were you if you're MID, and everyone's welcome at this chaotic table. So it's not law, but if you truly fit the gen X definition the nineties was likely or misspent youth era. I was nineteen to twenty nine. In that decade, A lot of things happened for me, for the world, for the culture, Grunge, britpop lads, Friends, Rave Slackers, Tarantino, Clueless, Titanic, Whitney, Alanis, the Spice Girls. I remember watching Thelma and Louise and thinking that feminism had triumphed. Things were sorted. I remember swooning over Keanu saving Sandra from a speeding bus, being unperturbed by Gwyneth's head in a box in seven, seeing Cameron Diaz her hair sky Highwood sperm in There's Something about Mary, and not thinking that was a gross humiliation. I had a lot of adventures in the nineties, a lot of misadventures too. I fell in love a couple of times. I got my heart broken, I broke a couple myself. I made some complicated decisions, I traveled across the world, like all of our twenties. Perhaps it was the best of times, it was the worst of times, but it was a time. I remember watching Muriel's wedding. It was the same year that I saw Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, A couple of years after I saw Strictly Ballroom and Romper Stomper. Why was a Mancunian live in London watching movies made on the opposite side of the planet. Well, it was my job. My first proper magazine job was for a publication for Ossie's and Kiwi's. Living and working in London, and I suppose that working there started the rest of my life, not that I knew that at the time. What I did, though, is that these movies were incredible, and everybody everywhere watched them, washing up from a sea of cool girls, hot girls, crazy pixie dream girls. Muriel's Wedding was about the traps set for women, and it had abba, but it also had spiky, dark edges and tragic undertones, sometimes lost among the memories of the catchphrases and the bad dancing, a bit like the nineties in general. Really, the boundaries of our eras are only really clear in hindsight, no matter how much we might want to declare our current status. I'm in my mid era. Obviously it's complicated and confusing here, but it's also full of glorious relief and regrowth, a little bit like a midlife bush that hasn't been lost to laser. But did I know when all the other eras stopped and started, and did I know when I was in them just how much change was going to come? Of course not, But how do you view your eras from the distance of mid Are you compassionate to that version of you? Scathing, angry at what she had to put up with. Do you wish she'd done more or less? About more or less? Do you miss her? Do you smile about that nineties version of you who thought she was free sexually, professionally, but really was dodging errant hands and mouths, being talked and passed over, being ranked and rated, always having to prove that, yes, you could take a joke, Yes you could put your pesky feminine parts aside to work like a man, drink like a man, and have sex like a man. Yeah. Look, it was a weird era, and here we are looking back at it.

Hello.

Hello.

I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid, midlife, mid family, mid panic about the world. Really, the thing that I love most about making this show mid is conversations for Generation X women who are anything but is that I've never had a boring conversation with a woman who comes to sit at this table. Midwomen might be many things, but we are not boring. Rachel Griffiths wouldn't know boring if it pooed on her lap. I don't think I need to introduce her, but if I do, there was a clue in my intro Muriel's wedding gave Melbourni and Rachel's career what she calls a fast start, and she has lived plenty of eras since then. She was deep inside the Hollywood machine for a while, in big movies and bigger TV shows, getting an Oscar nomination for Hillary and Jackie, winning a Golden Globe for Six Feet Under, and many times nominated in the beloved Brothers and Sisters. So there was that, and then there was her moving back home era with her two small babies, her activist era that may have never ended, although she does have quite a different take on it now, and her creator era. She imagined, produced and hustled into being the iconic Australian movie Ride Like a Girl, which she directed, and she co created the incredible ABCTV series Total Control with Blackfellow Films, which ran for three seasons until just last year and entirely changed the way she saw power and politics. I wanted to talk to Rachel about being a gen x icon of sorts, blasting into our consciousness in the middle of the nineties and then rising up alongside the women we're now well seeing having what's being termed comebacks. She says she never felt like a fuckable ingenou and that which pissed her off at times in her career may have served her well as she's grown right up. But we ended up talking about a lot more of non boring other stuff, her long marriage and how it's in its Woodja era, her ADHDAF diagnosis, and maybe why the eighties and nineties were the worst years for women in Hollywood, and how we stay optimistic while the world's well, you know what the world's doing. And of course we talk about the TV show Madam, which is on nine right now, and why she finally said yes to playing and Madam, a role that she's been offered many times before. Rachel Griffiths is bloody great. Enjoy this, Oh, and hang around at the end, friends, because I have some exciting news about a holiday, not mine, yours. Rachel Griffiths, do you like being mad? How do you feel about the gen X middle? Because I feel like there's that we're supposed to sit into binary camps. Either I'm in my power I've never felt more myself, or what fresh hell is this? Where do you sit?

I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid, midlife, mid family, mid panic about the world. Really, the thing that I love most about making this show mid is conversations for Generation X women who are anything but is that I've never had a boring conversation with a woman who comes to sit at this table. Midwomen might be many things, but we are not boring. Rachel Griffiths wouldn't know boring if it pooed on her lap. I don't think I need to introduce her, but if I do, there was a clue in my intro Muriel's wedding gave Melbourni and Rachel's career what she calls a fast start, and she has lived plenty of eras since then. She was deep inside the Hollywood machine for a while, in big movies and bigger TV shows, getting an Oscar nomination for Hillary and Jackie, winning a Golden Globe for Six Feet Under, and many times nominated in the beloved Brothers and Sisters. So there was that, and then there was her moving back home era with her two small babies, her activist era that may have never ended, although she does have quite a different take on it now, and her creator era. She imagined, produced and hustled into being the iconic Australian movie Ride Like a Girl, which she directed, and she co created the incredible ABCTV series Total Control with Blackfellow Films, which ran for three seasons until just last year and entirely changed the way she saw power and politics. I wanted to talk to Rachel about being a gen x icon of sorts, blasting into our consciousness in the middle of the nineties and then rising up alongside the women we're now well seeing having what's being termed comebacks. She says she never felt like a fuckable ingenou and that which pissed her off at times in her career may have served her well as she's grown right up. But we ended up talking about a lot more of non boring other stuff, her long marriage and how it's in its Woodja era, her ADHDAF diagnosis, and maybe why the eighties and nineties were the worst years for women in Hollywood, and how we stay optimistic while the world's well, you know what the world's doing. And of course we talk about the TV show Madam, which is on nine right now, and why she finally said yes to playing and Madam, a role that she's been offered many times before. Rachel Griffiths is bloody great. Enjoy this, Oh, and hang around at the end, friends, because I have some exciting news about a holiday, not mine, yours. Rachel Griffiths, do you like being mad? How do you feel about the gen X middle? Because I feel like there's that we're supposed to sit into binary camps. Either I'm in my power I've never felt more myself, or what fresh hell is this? Where do you sit?

I feel so different now that two of my three are through school, So I think the answer i'd give you today might be a little different from two years ago, and something that the load, not that you stop parenting when they finished school in are eighteen, but the sense of getting them, you know, to the end is of that process and helping them navigate the rollercoaster of teenage issues, especially with COVID. It was just a lot, you know, like I think like twenty twenty was probably my peak hell. Mid and I had, you know, we had aging parents who weren't doing well. My husband's father and nursing Karen were being locked out of being able to see him. So kind of feeling like you're failing your parents, You've kind of failing your kids because who was equipped, particularly in Melbourne to help them, you know, wake up, not get dreste something and then go on to a zoom for eight hours. And I think that was just a real hell in one way. Sometimes it family time became less, you know, less busy, less stressed, but it just felt so new to navigate. And then you're going through your per you know, your perimenopausal, you're not exercising, you're stacking on the way you know, you're trying not to talk about that in a house, you know, with sensitive teenage daughters who you know, whose relationship to their bodies and the world and food have also changed because they're not playing sport.

I feel so different now that two of my three are through school, So I think the answer i'd give you today might be a little different from two years ago, and something that the load, not that you stop parenting when they finished school in are eighteen, but the sense of getting them, you know, to the end is of that process and helping them navigate the rollercoaster of teenage issues, especially with COVID. It was just a lot, you know, like I think like twenty twenty was probably my peak hell. Mid and I had, you know, we had aging parents who weren't doing well. My husband's father and nursing Karen were being locked out of being able to see him. So kind of feeling like you're failing your parents, You've kind of failing your kids because who was equipped, particularly in Melbourne to help them, you know, wake up, not get dreste something and then go on to a zoom for eight hours. And I think that was just a real hell in one way. Sometimes it family time became less, you know, less busy, less stressed, but it just felt so new to navigate. And then you're going through your per you know, your perimenopausal, you're not exercising, you're stacking on the way you know, you're trying not to talk about that in a house, you know, with sensitive teenage daughters who you know, whose relationship to their bodies and the world and food have also changed because they're not playing sport.

And it was just.

And it was just.

It really was a really, really bizarre time. And to be so, you know, I didn't get many opportunities, if any, to be fabulous, and I think like I sloth around with you know, unwashed hair and egg on me, but every now and then the full team arrive and just remind me of just how fabulous I can be. And it was twenty twenty. There was no There was no fabulousness. And I remember I think we were nominated. I was nominated for I don't know if it was the Logis or the actors for Total Control. And I came down to six o'clock dinner wearing my gold LOGI dress in fully heels, and my kids are just like the fuck.

It really was a really, really bizarre time. And to be so, you know, I didn't get many opportunities, if any, to be fabulous, and I think like I sloth around with you know, unwashed hair and egg on me, but every now and then the full team arrive and just remind me of just how fabulous I can be. And it was twenty twenty. There was no There was no fabulousness. And I remember I think we were nominated. I was nominated for I don't know if it was the Logis or the actors for Total Control. And I came down to six o'clock dinner wearing my gold LOGI dress in fully heels, and my kids are just like the fuck.

They had not seen this sight of you for some time.

They had not seen this sight of you for some time.

It was just it was data.

It was just it was data.

It was like I never understood data and the whole movement of the crazy art that was made after World War One and the pandemic, which we kind of didn't add on. All I knew was art from that period was crazy and people had like naked painting, parties, and you know, you go to costume balls look at you know, in these crazy costumes and nothing was too wild.

It was like I never understood data and the whole movement of the crazy art that was made after World War One and the pandemic, which we kind of didn't add on. All I knew was art from that period was crazy and people had like naked painting, parties, and you know, you go to costume balls look at you know, in these crazy costumes and nothing was too wild.

And that's kind of like.

And that's kind of like.

I was like, oh, I get it, I get it because I think after this we're all going data. We are, so I'm going dada and my middle, my middle is defined by data.

I was like, oh, I get it, I get it because I think after this we're all going data. We are, so I'm going dada and my middle, my middle is defined by data.

Did you feel like coming out of that? And I know it's like some people don't like the term that we came out of COVID at all, but like.

Did you feel like coming out of that? And I know it's like some people don't like the term that we came out of COVID at all, but like.

Well, it was it was in moment, was a whole We came past you all.

Well, it was it was in moment, was a whole We came past you all.

Some faster than others, some faster than they were legally allowed to do.

Some faster than others, some faster than they were legally allowed to do.

But you know, looking back, I can't blame them for just going I can't beat this hole any longer.

But you know, looking back, I can't blame them for just going I can't beat this hole any longer.

And teenagers are meant to be out there in the world, causing trouble, experimenting, pushing boundaries, and they were all forced to do that in their bedrooms. But coming out of that, and at the same time as your kids moving into that new phase of independence, did you feel a big release and a big like Okay, now I can settle into the next act whatever that is.

And teenagers are meant to be out there in the world, causing trouble, experimenting, pushing boundaries, and they were all forced to do that in their bedrooms. But coming out of that, and at the same time as your kids moving into that new phase of independence, did you feel a big release and a big like Okay, now I can settle into the next act whatever that is.

Yeah. No, we made a decision, my husband and I to kind of take long service leave. I was the daughter of a teacher, so this magical long service leave was it was, it did exist on the horizon of you know, my mother's imagination. It's like, no, I can't retire, I've got four more only four more years to long service leave. And it was just it really was the gold at the end of the rainbow that they would dream of. So I think coming out of COVID, I thought I need to take long service leave. And twenty twenty one and I'd worked quite a lot.

Yeah. No, we made a decision, my husband and I to kind of take long service leave. I was the daughter of a teacher, so this magical long service leave was it was, it did exist on the horizon of you know, my mother's imagination. It's like, no, I can't retire, I've got four more only four more years to long service leave. And it was just it really was the gold at the end of the rainbow that they would dream of. So I think coming out of COVID, I thought I need to take long service leave. And twenty twenty one and I'd worked quite a lot.

Yeah, well you've been working. You've been working very solidly for a lot.

Yeah, well you've been working. You've been working very solidly for a lot.

I'd given it a hard.

I'd given it a hard.

I listened to the interview you did for No Filter with Mea Friedman, just when Ride Like a Girl was coming out, and that was like twenty seventeen eighteen, No, it was twenty nineteen. Yeah, so just before and you sounded in that like it's a great interview. It is fascinating. But you had obviously been pouring every bit of your heart and soul into making that movie happen, from conception to release to promotion and then total control again is your project? I mean, I know with Black Fellow Films.

I listened to the interview you did for No Filter with Mea Friedman, just when Ride Like a Girl was coming out, and that was like twenty seventeen eighteen, No, it was twenty nineteen. Yeah, so just before and you sounded in that like it's a great interview. It is fascinating. But you had obviously been pouring every bit of your heart and soul into making that movie happen, from conception to release to promotion and then total control again is your project? I mean, I know with Black Fellow Films.

Yeah, co created that was also, I was making that in two thousand and I know it was coming out in twenty nineteen as well.

Yeah, co created that was also, I was making that in two thousand and I know it was coming out in twenty nineteen as well.

So that's pedal to the metal. And you were kind of sounded in the interview with Mia as if you know, you knew that you'd kind of been hadn't been a that much for family life, and you've been feeling that, and you were you know, do.

So that's pedal to the metal. And you were kind of sounded in the interview with Mia as if you know, you knew that you'd kind of been hadn't been a that much for family life, and you've been feeling that, and you were you know, do.

You I brought COVID on myself. I brought a global pandemic.

You I brought COVID on myself. I brought a global pandemic.

To how about you stay home?

To how about you stay home?

It didn't quite turn out like that because I was attached to projects, you know, where my attachment was kind of critical to finance and for me to pull out of them may mean that crew for that, you know, it was their only job in eighteen months. So I was border jumping legally, you know, I think we're the last people into South Australia and doing I think I did four or five full quarantines. I did a full quarantine to get to a family member who was in really bad shape. It was yeah, So I and the kids had their bags packed after we were separated for quite a long time, and I had just because my producers were, you know, going through the process of getting me exemptions to to travel not overseas to work. I kind of had an idea of you know, when things were opening or closing, and you know, as soon as borders were open for a second that you know, I had the kids on a plane and I got my girls out to do two projects. And we were going between New Southwest and Queensland legally. And I hadn't seen my husband and son actually for about five months, which is the longest we've ever been apart. And I was in Queensland and Melbourne finally opened and so they were flying in into the Gold Coast and while we were in Queensland, something that had gone crazy in Queensland. So Victoria Victoria said, oh, we're closing the borders to Queensland at midnight tonight. So my husband derived with my son.

It didn't quite turn out like that because I was attached to projects, you know, where my attachment was kind of critical to finance and for me to pull out of them may mean that crew for that, you know, it was their only job in eighteen months. So I was border jumping legally, you know, I think we're the last people into South Australia and doing I think I did four or five full quarantines. I did a full quarantine to get to a family member who was in really bad shape. It was yeah, So I and the kids had their bags packed after we were separated for quite a long time, and I had just because my producers were, you know, going through the process of getting me exemptions to to travel not overseas to work. I kind of had an idea of you know, when things were opening or closing, and you know, as soon as borders were open for a second that you know, I had the kids on a plane and I got my girls out to do two projects. And we were going between New Southwest and Queensland legally. And I hadn't seen my husband and son actually for about five months, which is the longest we've ever been apart. And I was in Queensland and Melbourne finally opened and so they were flying in into the Gold Coast and while we were in Queensland, something that had gone crazy in Queensland. So Victoria Victoria said, oh, we're closing the borders to Queensland at midnight tonight. So my husband derived with my son.

I got them on the.

I got them on the.

Last flight out of Ballaner Trove and we sat there eating chips, hugging. I was crying at the airport at Ballaner and I got back, got on the plane. You know, my son was doing Year twelve and it was just it was really mad. Anyway, last year we took a sabatical, we took our long service leave.

Last flight out of Ballaner Trove and we sat there eating chips, hugging. I was crying at the airport at Ballaner and I got back, got on the plane. You know, my son was doing Year twelve and it was just it was really mad. Anyway, last year we took a sabatical, we took our long service leave.

And you know, I said to my husband.

And you know, I said to my husband.

You know, if we don't actually hang out in a non transactional.

You know, if we don't actually hang out in a non transactional.

Way, you know, we'll be those couples.

Way, you know, we'll be those couples.

As soon as the last kid gets their VCE exams it's usually after Christmas, sometime between Christmas, and you know, the bomb drops.

As soon as the last kid gets their VCE exams it's usually after Christmas, sometime between Christmas, and you know, the bomb drops.

Oh we're divorcing. So we're just going to look at each other and go, do I know you?

Oh we're divorcing. So we're just going to look at each other and go, do I know you?

So we took three months, we went to Europe and we had a rule that you couldn't say would you did you have your which really is pretty much however you explain that to me, Well, I think when you're in the weeds of kid, you know, three kids in life is busy. It's just so easy to go. You know, could you do this? Did you sign up for parenting? Can you cover me?

So we took three months, we went to Europe and we had a rule that you couldn't say would you did you have your which really is pretty much however you explain that to me, Well, I think when you're in the weeds of kid, you know, three kids in life is busy. It's just so easy to go. You know, could you do this? Did you sign up for parenting? Can you cover me?

Pick up? And you should have? And yeah and well hopefully not should have, should have? Could have? But could did you have your? Not watier?

Pick up? And you should have? And yeah and well hopefully not should have, should have? Could have? But could did you have your? Not watier?

So we had to move to a watrier. What are your mindset? What do you feel like for dinner? And do you want to do you want to go for a walk? What do you think of and did you like I know, I think it was many you know what do you think not?

So we had to move to a watrier. What are your mindset? What do you feel like for dinner? And do you want to do you want to go for a walk? What do you think of and did you like I know, I think it was many you know what do you think not?

Did you like? Yes?

Did you like? Yes?

No, but what do you think like more open questions and anyway that we were looking. It was a really amazing time. And my husband didn't believe we were going to we're going, I said to my agents. Unless it's white loaded season three, don't call me.

No, but what do you think like more open questions and anyway that we were looking. It was a really amazing time. And my husband didn't believe we were going to we're going, I said to my agents. Unless it's white loaded season three, don't call me.

Is that the call that everybody's waiting for?

Is that the call that everybody's waiting for?

I think it is, because also we just would have done long service in Thailand.

I think it is, because also we just would have done long service in Thailand.

It would have been fine.

It would have been fine.

Still call Mike.

Still call Mike.

But we were literally the.

But we were literally the.

Other way there putting it and my husband's like this we actually we actually said, yeah, we're actually going. We're actually this has it won't be you know, a fool three. I said, I know, that's that's what I need. I need long service leave. And then I think we were just shy of that. We dragged our fifteen year old and pretended she wasn't there, and she goes, when is this affing long service sabbatical? She because, when is this sabbatical over? Like I am fifteen, I am not meant to be hanging out with my parents.

Other way there putting it and my husband's like this we actually we actually said, yeah, we're actually going. We're actually this has it won't be you know, a fool three. I said, I know, that's that's what I need. I need long service leave. And then I think we were just shy of that. We dragged our fifteen year old and pretended she wasn't there, and she goes, when is this affing long service sabbatical? She because, when is this sabbatical over? Like I am fifteen, I am not meant to be hanging out with my parents.

I like enjoying some kind of a second exactly.

I like enjoying some kind of a second exactly.

She was the third wheel on the kind of second honeymoon. And we're like, oh, yeah, that was that was a bit cruel.

She was the third wheel on the kind of second honeymoon. And we're like, oh, yeah, that was that was a bit cruel.

That's really funny.

That's really funny.

I like it.

I like it.

After this short break, Rachel griffits and I pay homage to bon Taylor Swift by discussing eras, the ones Rachel has already lived and the one she's in now stay with us. I assume that it was relatively successful, this experiment because you are still together.

After this short break, Rachel griffits and I pay homage to bon Taylor Swift by discussing eras, the ones Rachel has already lived and the one she's in now stay with us. I assume that it was relatively successful, this experiment because you are still together.

So that's so we didn't call it child.

So that's so we didn't call it child.

Yeah, that's true. But in terms of your relationship with work, because one of the good things I think about being older is you kind of can look back on your life as these almost series of eras without wanting to be Taylor.

Yeah, that's true. But in terms of your relationship with work, because one of the good things I think about being older is you kind of can look back on your life as these almost series of eras without wanting to be Taylor.

I'm like, oh, I've had heras well.

I'm like, oh, I've had heras well.

You definitely have had areas. And I was thinking about how you've been inside the Hollywood machinery, everything from nominated to an Academy Award to winning the Golden Globe to being on the really high profile TV shows. You've been inside production, directing, you've always been adjacent to politics, You've had all You've seen a lot of stuff. And I was wondering about your relationship to work, if you've had those moments where you go, I've got all the things you're supposed to want, and it's not what it's meant to be, and if that's always been the thing that's shifted your gears.

You definitely have had areas. And I was thinking about how you've been inside the Hollywood machinery, everything from nominated to an Academy Award to winning the Golden Globe to being on the really high profile TV shows. You've been inside production, directing, you've always been adjacent to politics, You've had all You've seen a lot of stuff. And I was wondering about your relationship to work, if you've had those moments where you go, I've got all the things you're supposed to want, and it's not what it's meant to be, and if that's always been the thing that's shifted your gears.

I think it is interesting how you, you know, reframe your experiences and feelings about yourself as you age through different lenses. You know, you spend a bit of your twenties seeing things through the lens of kind of recovering cultural catholic and you kind of them you know, we're seeing things through fourth wave feminism, which is really helpful for me because feminism was a bit of a kind of dirty word. I think, you know, they made it dirty for the exes so that we kind of give up the cause. And I think we got really lazy because we thought it was nasty. Not all of us smart girls didn't buy that gas lighting.

I think it is interesting how you, you know, reframe your experiences and feelings about yourself as you age through different lenses. You know, you spend a bit of your twenties seeing things through the lens of kind of recovering cultural catholic and you kind of them you know, we're seeing things through fourth wave feminism, which is really helpful for me because feminism was a bit of a kind of dirty word. I think, you know, they made it dirty for the exes so that we kind of give up the cause. And I think we got really lazy because we thought it was nasty. Not all of us smart girls didn't buy that gas lighting.

Hey, cute loss to you.

Hey, cute loss to you.

I was one of those dumb girls that internalized that misogyny.

I was one of those dumb girls that internalized that misogyny.

We're all just like the guys. Now, we're all invited to the party, and so we're here. Will I do what we're you know exactly?

We're all just like the guys. Now, we're all invited to the party, and so we're here. Will I do what we're you know exactly?

And I think I having kids, you've you know, the nature nurture and all of that kind of gets reframed. But look, I am adhd as F and I have always needed something that's if I don't have something really strong that my imagination is dancing with persistently. You know, my brain tends to attack itself and attack the self. I think I became accidentally the actor journey like took off faster and higher and more wonderfully than I ever expected. I mean in that after Memorial, Yeah, after Muriel and getting all these opportunities, and it's you know, that's a very three months, you know, Thomas Arty, Thomas Arty. You know, I read about early Victorian England, but the lead time and the immersion, you know, it doesn't fully always satisfy the how long you have been thinking about things? And you know, I've thought a lot about women and leadership from when I was studying politics, and you know, total control apart from the First Nations kind of aspect of it is very much a continuation of like my first year politics essay, like some of these ideas, you know, things you just haven't found.

And I think I having kids, you've you know, the nature nurture and all of that kind of gets reframed. But look, I am adhd as F and I have always needed something that's if I don't have something really strong that my imagination is dancing with persistently. You know, my brain tends to attack itself and attack the self. I think I became accidentally the actor journey like took off faster and higher and more wonderfully than I ever expected. I mean in that after Memorial, Yeah, after Muriel and getting all these opportunities, and it's you know, that's a very three months, you know, Thomas Arty, Thomas Arty. You know, I read about early Victorian England, but the lead time and the immersion, you know, it doesn't fully always satisfy the how long you have been thinking about things? And you know, I've thought a lot about women and leadership from when I was studying politics, and you know, total control apart from the First Nations kind of aspect of it is very much a continuation of like my first year politics essay, like some of these ideas, you know, things you just haven't found.

You know.

You know.

It's the kind of themes of the standing of the universe that you know, if you're a mathematician, it's maths problems, and you know, if if you're kind of my brain, it's you know, how did the Holocaust happen.

It's the kind of themes of the standing of the universe that you know, if you're a mathematician, it's maths problems, and you know, if if you're kind of my brain, it's you know, how did the Holocaust happen.

How did that happen? You know?

How did that happen? You know?

And you never really got an answer, and then right now I feel like my brain is still going, oh, oh, this is this is how it happens, Like, you know, the world. I never thought I'd live in a world that's moving towards a cruelty or or a moral you know, is shewing any kind of true kind of moral reckoning, not moralizing, but leaving you know, to almost take deeply moral positions. Now he's woke, and you know, so I go, oh, this has happened. But I've been thinking about these things my whole life. So I guess, as this content maker, a lot of that is just my brain I get hooked on.

And you never really got an answer, and then right now I feel like my brain is still going, oh, oh, this is this is how it happens, Like, you know, the world. I never thought I'd live in a world that's moving towards a cruelty or or a moral you know, is shewing any kind of true kind of moral reckoning, not moralizing, but leaving you know, to almost take deeply moral positions. Now he's woke, and you know, so I go, oh, this has happened. But I've been thinking about these things my whole life. So I guess, as this content maker, a lot of that is just my brain I get hooked on.

You know, will you diagnose ADHD late? Yes, so it's a relatively recent and that did it for? Did it put a lot of pieces into place for you? Has it been really helpful and understanding that.

You know, will you diagnose ADHD late? Yes, so it's a relatively recent and that did it for? Did it put a lot of pieces into place for you? Has it been really helpful and understanding that.

They do say that?

They do say that?

You know, it's when you're on a journey with your children, you look at yourself and you go, oh, yes, it's yeah. It explained a lot about certainly my father, I think you know, my brother may have been diagnosed as a child.

You know, it's when you're on a journey with your children, you look at yourself and you go, oh, yes, it's yeah. It explained a lot about certainly my father, I think you know, my brother may have been diagnosed as a child.

It is that kind of women, women thing.

It is that kind of women, women thing.

And people were like, it's naughty boys, It's not.

And people were like, it's naughty boys, It's not.

I always like.

I always like.

Spicy girls are my favorite because I know they're not judging me by the same kind of manual that I've never got the translation for, you know, as not just the mean goals, because I think that's too trophy, but just those girls that you know, just walk confidently through society with a kind of clarity about these, you know, appropriate interpersonal interactions. You know they're not whereas you know, I'm just a ping pong ball bouncing off society. So I've always felt safe with neurospicy girls.

Spicy girls are my favorite because I know they're not judging me by the same kind of manual that I've never got the translation for, you know, as not just the mean goals, because I think that's too trophy, but just those girls that you know, just walk confidently through society with a kind of clarity about these, you know, appropriate interpersonal interactions. You know they're not whereas you know, I'm just a ping pong ball bouncing off society. So I've always felt safe with neurospicy girls.

Yeah, I totally understand that. I've heard you say quite a bit though, that those years of the acting years where you might have been on the big shiny shows, you didn't actually have much control or input at all, And so do you feel like you've been that Getting older and more comfortable in lots of ways has also been about trying to regain control and the projects you work on now you get to do that.

Yeah, I totally understand that. I've heard you say quite a bit though, that those years of the acting years where you might have been on the big shiny shows, you didn't actually have much control or input at all, And so do you feel like you've been that Getting older and more comfortable in lots of ways has also been about trying to regain control and the projects you work on now you get to do that.

Yeah, it's funny that idea of control. I definitely felt out of control. I wasn't motivated to get control, except I knew that the only way to not feel out of control is to no longer be under contract. And I did two five year stints that could have gone to seven, and it was an amazing opportunity that fantastic creatives working with the best people. I wouldn't change it for the world, but I did fell out of control because you know, each week a script would arrive that I hadn't you know, I hadn't signed on for in the world way that you know in a play or a film, the consent is that you have pretty much the full document. You know, you have a chat with the director, and any mass you know, any big changes to that document can be negotiated with agents once you've signed on. If they completely change the premise and you know where you're filming and a whole bunch of other things, you kin't got a right to god, this is not working for me anymore. But once you're on a TV show, you are out of control. You signed on to one pilot and five years later you have no consent.

Yeah, it's funny that idea of control. I definitely felt out of control. I wasn't motivated to get control, except I knew that the only way to not feel out of control is to no longer be under contract. And I did two five year stints that could have gone to seven, and it was an amazing opportunity that fantastic creatives working with the best people. I wouldn't change it for the world, but I did fell out of control because you know, each week a script would arrive that I hadn't you know, I hadn't signed on for in the world way that you know in a play or a film, the consent is that you have pretty much the full document. You know, you have a chat with the director, and any mass you know, any big changes to that document can be negotiated with agents once you've signed on. If they completely change the premise and you know where you're filming and a whole bunch of other things, you kin't got a right to god, this is not working for me anymore. But once you're on a TV show, you are out of control. You signed on to one pilot and five years later you have no consent.

And new pages are arriving all the time, a new characters doing all kinds of things.

And new pages are arriving all the time, a new characters doing all kinds of things.

All kinds of things, and you know your character might be doing things, but in the end, it's your body and your emotions.

All kinds of things, and you know your character might be doing things, but in the end, it's your body and your emotions.

That are actually having to live with them.

That are actually having to live with them.

You know, in the projects that you've been bringing to life in the last I mean more than ten years, I suppose, but you've had much more input and been able to frame that much more clearly. But before we move on from Hollywood, I wanted to ask you what you think about at the minute, there's a lot of talk about how the gen x icons of your time, your Kidman's, your Demi Moor's, your Angelina Jolies are all having moments again, and that it's kind of being seen. And I've spoken about this, and I'd love to know what you think that maybe we have dented that agism in Hollywood that used to be your forty or you're thirty and you're playing now just either wronged wife or you know, mart and Mum or whatever. Do you think that's true or do you think it's because we've kind of shifted the goalposts around what we think women of a certain age look like and all of those.

You know, in the projects that you've been bringing to life in the last I mean more than ten years, I suppose, but you've had much more input and been able to frame that much more clearly. But before we move on from Hollywood, I wanted to ask you what you think about at the minute, there's a lot of talk about how the gen x icons of your time, your Kidman's, your Demi Moor's, your Angelina Jolies are all having moments again, and that it's kind of being seen. And I've spoken about this, and I'd love to know what you think that maybe we have dented that agism in Hollywood that used to be your forty or you're thirty and you're playing now just either wronged wife or you know, mart and Mum or whatever. Do you think that's true or do you think it's because we've kind of shifted the goalposts around what we think women of a certain age look like and all of those.

Look I think it's that, and.

Look I think it's that, and.

I definitely think we now understand that, you know, women watch television. Women are probably still in charge of which streamers are on the platforms and are being paid for by the monthly subscriptions and because of that, the audience is being served. Women my age aren't scrolling TikTok to the same degree, so they're still committed to long form, perhaps more so.

I definitely think we now understand that, you know, women watch television. Women are probably still in charge of which streamers are on the platforms and are being paid for by the monthly subscriptions and because of that, the audience is being served. Women my age aren't scrolling TikTok to the same degree, so they're still committed to long form, perhaps more so.

There is an audience there.

There is an audience there.

And then I think the other thing is, you know, to speak of those kind of icons like to me and I don't think Nicole really ever stopped having She's had heras. I don't think she's I mean, she's her moments only paused by kind of you know, a refresh and a regrounding, and she has another one. But we are entering an age where it's really really hard to become a movie star.

And then I think the other thing is, you know, to speak of those kind of icons like to me and I don't think Nicole really ever stopped having She's had heras. I don't think she's I mean, she's her moments only paused by kind of you know, a refresh and a regrounding, and she has another one. But we are entering an age where it's really really hard to become a movie star.

So so you think the established ones.

So so you think the established ones.

Yeah, that's that, you know, they have brand. You know, I want to see back to the future for you know, because you know, there is a nostalgia in there is a comfort, there's there truly are very few true movie stars, you know under forty and that is that's a good thing in that, you know, the the actors, there is more diverse actors, it's less concentrated, there's more opportunities to a point, but very few. You know, there's very few Charlemais and there's you know, you can have a moment.

Yeah, that's that, you know, they have brand. You know, I want to see back to the future for you know, because you know, there is a nostalgia in there is a comfort, there's there truly are very few true movie stars, you know under forty and that is that's a good thing in that, you know, the the actors, there is more diverse actors, it's less concentrated, there's more opportunities to a point, but very few. You know, there's very few Charlemais and there's you know, you can have a moment.

Will you have a decade or will you have four decades? Like Nicole.

Will you have a decade or will you have four decades? Like Nicole.

I think it's I think it's really really going to become increasingly rare.

I think it's I think it's really really going to become increasingly rare.

That's interesting because that makes total sense. But also I guess the male movie stars have kind of been allowed for a long time to hold onto that we were used to seeing men, the iconic male movie stars in their fifties and beyond.

That's interesting because that makes total sense. But also I guess the male movie stars have kind of been allowed for a long time to hold onto that we were used to seeing men, the iconic male movie stars in their fifties and beyond.

But maybe it's actually very true.

But maybe it's actually very true.

Maybe now women are being afforded that longevity.

Maybe now women are being afforded that longevity.

Yes, I think I hope it's not just because they look young. No, but no, I think that's true.

Yes, I think I hope it's not just because they look young. No, but no, I think that's true.

I think it's harder to make a new female movie star now.

I think it's harder to make a new female movie star now.

And I think, you know, in a.

And I think, you know, in a.

Risk averse content universe, I can see why people that go, well, let's you know, let's go with the name. But I also think, you know, I am really interested in in the generation of girls that I perhaps would have been intellectually you know, snobby about and brought into you know, not that I would have said it, but did I internalize that idea that there's popcorn actresses and then there's serious actresses and.

Risk averse content universe, I can see why people that go, well, let's you know, let's go with the name. But I also think, you know, I am really interested in in the generation of girls that I perhaps would have been intellectually you know, snobby about and brought into you know, not that I would have said it, but did I internalize that idea that there's popcorn actresses and then there's serious actresses and.

Exactly, and I was.

Exactly, and I was.

Very lucky, you know, very lucky to find myself in the kind of take her seriously box, and I think that, you know, it was just by the fault of default of me not being as ngenw fucker ball.

Very lucky, you know, very lucky to find myself in the kind of take her seriously box, and I think that, you know, it was just by the fault of default of me not being as ngenw fucker ball.

The whole young thing.

The whole young thing.

And I probably kind of looked, you know, with some envy at the opportunities, repeated opportunities, you know, those female actors were given, and felt that was unfair, you know that, especially when they turn up in a big movie that you know, I didn't think they were up for. And I kind of, you know, I'm a bit shamed of myself for kind of buying into that. And I think it's I mean, Demi, I loved her, like from the moment I saw her. She to me, had she was authentic, and she was raw, and she was sexy, and I kind of understood you could feel the kind of wounds in her. And it was such a kind of shame that she got, you know that she peeked at the I think, the kind of most misogynistic brat pack moment.

And I probably kind of looked, you know, with some envy at the opportunities, repeated opportunities, you know, those female actors were given, and felt that was unfair, you know that, especially when they turn up in a big movie that you know, I didn't think they were up for. And I kind of, you know, I'm a bit shamed of myself for kind of buying into that. And I think it's I mean, Demi, I loved her, like from the moment I saw her. She to me, had she was authentic, and she was raw, and she was sexy, and I kind of understood you could feel the kind of wounds in her. And it was such a kind of shame that she got, you know that she peeked at the I think, the kind of most misogynistic brat pack moment.

And she was mocked and mocked.

And she was mocked and mocked.

Yeah, and everyone thinks, you know, brat pack always worse than the fifties, But I grew up watching movies from the thirties forties and fifties because the female roles were better, more interesting, more complicated. You know, it was the eighties movies that sucks, Yeah, like really sucked.

Yeah, and everyone thinks, you know, brat pack always worse than the fifties, But I grew up watching movies from the thirties forties and fifties because the female roles were better, more interesting, more complicated. You know, it was the eighties movies that sucks, Yeah, like really sucked.

You know, the.

You know, the.

Absolute tweep gets, the hot girl and just impossible plots where you know, it was basically, you know, felt like Nerdy in Cells ended up with the keys to the cool Kids camp through the you know, through their clever camera and just created a bullshit version of the universe with air triumph and it was just rubbish. That's and they don't age well, like those films do not age well.

Absolute tweep gets, the hot girl and just impossible plots where you know, it was basically, you know, felt like Nerdy in Cells ended up with the keys to the cool Kids camp through the you know, through their clever camera and just created a bullshit version of the universe with air triumph and it was just rubbish. That's and they don't age well, like those films do not age well.

Back to the future aside.

Back to the future aside.

Absolutely, I mean I feel it's I mean very very briefly touched on this. We might go back to it later, but it's hard to feel optimistic about that many things at the moment culturally, But maybe that's one of them, Like maybe the fact that we are hearing more female stories that have a lot more and I know that, I know it's still female stories of a certain type in a way, but we are hearing more stories of women who are over the allegedly fuckable age. We are hearing more stories about different kinds. That's got to be something to be happy about.

Absolutely, I mean I feel it's I mean very very briefly touched on this. We might go back to it later, but it's hard to feel optimistic about that many things at the moment culturally, But maybe that's one of them, Like maybe the fact that we are hearing more female stories that have a lot more and I know that, I know it's still female stories of a certain type in a way, but we are hearing more stories of women who are over the allegedly fuckable age. We are hearing more stories about different kinds. That's got to be something to be happy about.

Yeah, I think.

Yeah, I think.

I think it's also that, you know, I watched Love Actually again recently.

I think it's also that, you know, I watched Love Actually again recently.

Firm how how weird that film is.

Firm how how weird that film is.

You know, he did not my fifteen year old daughter did not get that film.

You know, he did not my fifteen year old daughter did not get that film.

Well, not only do they not get it, they can actively unpick every misogyny. And somebody described it the profound lack of interiority that women were afforded in British and American cinema for a long time. And look at you know, and he was so charming, you know, that filmmaker. It was easy not to see it. But if you watch any of his films, the women are just props for the mental learn how to be human on and even then probably discard or fail to understand there or be interested in their interiority. And I love in terms of content, young women know when that interiority exists and makes sense to them. I did a show called The Wilds, and it was profoundly because of this aspect. I had just never seen that young woman's coming of age done in such an unsexualized, complicated, messy way. You know, they do watch tiktoks where girls are authentically performative maybe maybe performatively maybe, but performatively authentically talking about the icky, sticky feelings that are uncomfortable and weird, and Taylor's made it okay to name the ick feeling that, you know, I think our generation was so ashamed of so I think that generation coming into menopause will not be as enraged as we are.

Well, not only do they not get it, they can actively unpick every misogyny. And somebody described it the profound lack of interiority that women were afforded in British and American cinema for a long time. And look at you know, and he was so charming, you know, that filmmaker. It was easy not to see it. But if you watch any of his films, the women are just props for the mental learn how to be human on and even then probably discard or fail to understand there or be interested in their interiority. And I love in terms of content, young women know when that interiority exists and makes sense to them. I did a show called The Wilds, and it was profoundly because of this aspect. I had just never seen that young woman's coming of age done in such an unsexualized, complicated, messy way. You know, they do watch tiktoks where girls are authentically performative maybe maybe performatively maybe, but performatively authentically talking about the icky, sticky feelings that are uncomfortable and weird, and Taylor's made it okay to name the ick feeling that, you know, I think our generation was so ashamed of so I think that generation coming into menopause will not be as enraged as we are.

That's really interesting.

That's really interesting.

I really do not have as much to be enraged, I don't think so.

I really do not have as much to be enraged, I don't think so.

I think we sucked up a lot. And for me personally, it wasn't even about sucking it up. It was not having names for things. And suddenly the universe started naming these ikey, nasty states that I felt like I did have a right to ask for Orsha, and suddenly, you know, I had this fourth way feminist language and a lot of it.

I think we sucked up a lot. And for me personally, it wasn't even about sucking it up. It was not having names for things. And suddenly the universe started naming these ikey, nasty states that I felt like I did have a right to ask for Orsha, and suddenly, you know, I had this fourth way feminist language and a lot of it.

It's so true.

It's so true.

It's funny. In one of the earlier episodes, I often say, like, is there the idea of perimenopausal rage? Isn't it just a sane response to having lived as a woman in the world for so long when you are a gen X woman and having to put up with all this is like you're suddenly kind of like, hold on, I don't have to play by those yes anyway, I completely agree with that that and I think it's the last burst of testosterone to remake your life.

It's funny. In one of the earlier episodes, I often say, like, is there the idea of perimenopausal rage? Isn't it just a sane response to having lived as a woman in the world for so long when you are a gen X woman and having to put up with all this is like you're suddenly kind of like, hold on, I don't have to play by those yes anyway, I completely agree with that that and I think it's the last burst of testosterone to remake your life.

If you don't like what it looks like, if you don't like the job you're in, you know you're up the corporate ladder, you don't like the husband, the country, anything, you go. This is the last energy you will have in a fierce way to rebuild your life if you take that choice.

If you don't like what it looks like, if you don't like the job you're in, you know you're up the corporate ladder, you don't like the husband, the country, anything, you go. This is the last energy you will have in a fierce way to rebuild your life if you take that choice.

That is so true and why when you look around you see mid women, verticmas are doing that. They are going and doing that PhD they wanted to do. They are training as a yoga teacher, whatever they're doing. They're leaving their marriages whatever. After the break, Rachel and I talk about her new project, Madam, which is all about sex and desire and freedom and you know, the good stuff. Stay with us, Rachel, I want to talk to you about Madam, your new series, and I actually had the chance to interview Antonia Murphy recently, who wrote the book that the series is based.

That is so true and why when you look around you see mid women, verticmas are doing that. They are going and doing that PhD they wanted to do. They are training as a yoga teacher, whatever they're doing. They're leaving their marriages whatever. After the break, Rachel and I talk about her new project, Madam, which is all about sex and desire and freedom and you know, the good stuff. Stay with us, Rachel, I want to talk to you about Madam, your new series, and I actually had the chance to interview Antonia Murphy recently, who wrote the book that the series is based.

On good You can actually tell me I've forgotten some aspects. So there's true and what is not. Yes, I don't want to get sued for deafa.

On good You can actually tell me I've forgotten some aspects. So there's true and what is not. Yes, I don't want to get sued for deafa.

Ma No, no, don't worry about that. A fair bit of the setup about the husband isn't strict ye true. But the thing that is certainly true, and that from the parts of Madam I've seen seem absolutely spot on, is that she is what she wanted to create with that ethical brothel and this kind of revolutionary idea really because she was I know, you know, she found herself in New Zealand as an American woman with a profoundly disabled son, questioning her next stage. And in New Zealand, sex works legal and brothels legal and did criminalize, yes, and so she said that's very unusual, but that didn't necessarily mean that they were ethical. So she set out to as you know, I'm telling you all the stories, you know, but the listener might not.

Ma No, no, don't worry about that. A fair bit of the setup about the husband isn't strict ye true. But the thing that is certainly true, and that from the parts of Madam I've seen seem absolutely spot on, is that she is what she wanted to create with that ethical brothel and this kind of revolutionary idea really because she was I know, you know, she found herself in New Zealand as an American woman with a profoundly disabled son, questioning her next stage. And in New Zealand, sex works legal and brothels legal and did criminalize, yes, and so she said that's very unusual, but that didn't necessarily mean that they were ethical. So she set out to as you know, I'm telling you all the stories, you know, but the listener might not.

Tell your listeners.

Tell your listeners.

And she's the main thing, the main thing for the women who worked there, and she was living in a small town, which I also find fascinating she's living in a small town. Is that everything consent was at the center of everything they do. So the women were in control of their schedules and in control of who they saw and who they didn't see and all of those things. It's fascinating. It's a wonderful story of just stripping back a lot of talking before about how gen X women often have been very like, we're still shamey about stuff and we're not sure. I think that maybe we thought we were really bold and out there and brave about sex sexuality, but actually we're still quite icky about talking about it in this way. So it's a really interesting conversation. What drew you to the part? I mean, I know it's not her that you're playing, but the version of Antineer that was in.

And she's the main thing, the main thing for the women who worked there, and she was living in a small town, which I also find fascinating she's living in a small town. Is that everything consent was at the center of everything they do. So the women were in control of their schedules and in control of who they saw and who they didn't see and all of those things. It's fascinating. It's a wonderful story of just stripping back a lot of talking before about how gen X women often have been very like, we're still shamey about stuff and we're not sure. I think that maybe we thought we were really bold and out there and brave about sex sexuality, but actually we're still quite icky about talking about it in this way. So it's a really interesting conversation. What drew you to the part? I mean, I know it's not her that you're playing, but the version of Antineer that was in.

Well, every role I get offered, I run through the lens of how far, how long, how much? And then how good is you know, cherry on the cake.

Well, every role I get offered, I run through the lens of how far, how long, how much? And then how good is you know, cherry on the cake.

So you're always developing projects too, right, so obviously total control. As we discussed yes, your baby, well part of your baby.

So you're always developing projects too, right, so obviously total control. As we discussed yes, your baby, well part of your baby.

I know this was more just you know, to earn money, I have to leave my family, se you're balancing, so how far away is it? How long will I be away for? And am I making enough money to fly myself back every weekend? Sometimes just sometimes I went back for a day and got a night flight back. So those things have to add up, and then it's like is it good because I don't really want to know.

I know this was more just you know, to earn money, I have to leave my family, se you're balancing, so how far away is it? How long will I be away for? And am I making enough money to fly myself back every weekend? Sometimes just sometimes I went back for a day and got a night flight back. So those things have to add up, and then it's like is it good because I don't really want to know.

If I don't want to know, it's amazing.

If I don't want to know, it's amazing.

If I've already gone too far, you know, too long. I don't want the good thing to to make me feel you know, torn really, you know, because it's quite black and white, and certainly was when the kids were you know, the older.

If I've already gone too far, you know, too long. I don't want the good thing to to make me feel you know, torn really, you know, because it's quite black and white, and certainly was when the kids were you know, the older.

Two were still at school. I've been offered so many sex worker roles.

Two were still at school. I've been offered so many sex worker roles.

So many madame roles, at least two British madame roles, I think, one Australian and one American. I played a beautiful I was in a beautiful film by Honey of Kureesha called My Son the Fanatic, or I played a sex worker. I was groundbreaking British film that kind of predicted the rise of radical Islam in second generation Southeast Indian community. It was a very very tender, tender film. Everything I've read this is not tender. It's gritty and it's dirty, and it's you know, and it's kind it's either like really you know, seriously exploring the exploitation, well, kind of getting anyone off at home that wants to you know, it's hedging its bets and just kind of nasty. And I never, you know, I was just like, oh God again, you know, if you got anything new to say, about it.

So many madame roles, at least two British madame roles, I think, one Australian and one American. I played a beautiful I was in a beautiful film by Honey of Kureesha called My Son the Fanatic, or I played a sex worker. I was groundbreaking British film that kind of predicted the rise of radical Islam in second generation Southeast Indian community. It was a very very tender, tender film. Everything I've read this is not tender. It's gritty and it's dirty, and it's you know, and it's kind it's either like really you know, seriously exploring the exploitation, well, kind of getting anyone off at home that wants to you know, it's hedging its bets and just kind of nasty. And I never, you know, I was just like, oh God again, you know, if you got anything new to say, about it.

Yes, it's set in Victorian England.

Yes, it's set in Victorian England.

I'm like, it's still kind of grimy, gritty and kind of exploitative, and I'd have no content in the process historically. So when my agent kind of said, you know, starts to brother and I'm like, I don't think I'm interested. My agent said, oh, it's you know, I said, it says so they always say ikey, and I just feel like they're so male gaze. Actually that's the thing. There's so male gays. And he said, oh no, no, this is sorry, it's a comedy and it's based on a real woman who's you know, written this manuscript. So he sent me the article and I said, oh, this is brilliant because I've just never seen a female gaze on.

I'm like, it's still kind of grimy, gritty and kind of exploitative, and I'd have no content in the process historically. So when my agent kind of said, you know, starts to brother and I'm like, I don't think I'm interested. My agent said, oh, it's you know, I said, it says so they always say ikey, and I just feel like they're so male gaze. Actually that's the thing. There's so male gays. And he said, oh no, no, this is sorry, it's a comedy and it's based on a real woman who's you know, written this manuscript. So he sent me the article and I said, oh, this is brilliant because I've just never seen a female gaze on.

I mean, we grew up with.

I mean, we grew up with.

Pretty baby like Brookshields is twelve taxi driver, like you know, like to go about the pervy excuse of exploring a sex worker with the hode of gold whilst you know being twelve, Like that is messed up stuff. So, yes, comedy female and a queer show runner, made with consultation with women who work in the industry, and it's kei we did.

Pretty baby like Brookshields is twelve taxi driver, like you know, like to go about the pervy excuse of exploring a sex worker with the hode of gold whilst you know being twelve, Like that is messed up stuff. So, yes, comedy female and a queer show runner, made with consultation with women who work in the industry, and it's kei we did.

I said, they are funny.

I said, they are funny.

It's very funny.

It's very funny.

So yeah, that Gollie heart right so much.

So yeah, that Gollie heart right so much.

But not heart in that like hooker with a horror color, no madam with a heart. But what I interviewed Angineer Run and I read her book obviously, is she was She said that a lot of her most successful workers in that brothel were midlife women. She said that they a red flag for the women were always the guys who requested young was always one of their flags. And in the in her phone, they'd have all these little, you know, nicknames for people, so it was you know, yes, Billy Golden Showers or whatever.

But not heart in that like hooker with a horror color, no madam with a heart. But what I interviewed Angineer Run and I read her book obviously, is she was She said that a lot of her most successful workers in that brothel were midlife women. She said that they a red flag for the women were always the guys who requested young was always one of their flags. And in the in her phone, they'd have all these little, you know, nicknames for people, so it was you know, yes, Billy Golden Showers or whatever.

Whatever, don't wash Walter, Yeah, exactly.

Whatever, don't wash Walter, Yeah, exactly.

But she said that the midlife women were often the most popular because they were nurturing, warm, experienced, efficient. You know, I'm very good at reading people, and I found that really interesting. It's like, it's a really interesting concept.

But she said that the midlife women were often the most popular because they were nurturing, warm, experienced, efficient. You know, I'm very good at reading people, and I found that really interesting. It's like, it's a really interesting concept.

Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the great things she says in the book, she said, you know, we don't sell sex, we treat loneliness, which is, you know, as we know, an epidemic. And you know, one of the sex workers I talked to, a lot of her clients were mid to late seventies were still married had you know, the sexual aspect of the relationship. It ended a long time ago, much to their deep, deep sadness, and you know, they didn't want to leave their wives, but they really grieved this part of you know, the relationship, and their wife is kind of like, I'm just I'm not I can't.