You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Mama Mea are out loud? What women are actually talking about on Wednesday the thirty.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Mama Mea are out loud? What women are actually talking about on Wednesday the thirty.

On What how About?

On What how About?

We's done Again? Hello, and welcome to Mama Mea Out loud What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the thirteenth of November. I'm Meya Friedman sitting in the big chair while Holly wayIn Wright is away.

We's done Again? Hello, and welcome to Mama Mea Out loud What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the thirteenth of November. I'm Meya Friedman sitting in the big chair while Holly wayIn Wright is away.

I'm Jesse Stevens and today we are joined by Mama Maya's US correspondent and the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, our friend, Amelia Lester.

I'm Jesse Stevens and today we are joined by Mama Maya's US correspondent and the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine, our friend, Amelia Lester.

Hello, Hello, welcome, And on the show today it's equal parts chaotic and iconic. Yes, we're talking about the Martha Stewart Netflix stocko and why the original influencer Jailbird and Snoop's best friend hates it? And why did Kate Middleton's face attract so much attention after Remembrance Day's service in London? Have we just forgotten what women actually look like? Plus dating as a job the new method for single people looking to be unsingle that boasts a scorched earth policy and some very strict criteria. But first, Jesse Stevens.

Hello, Hello, welcome, And on the show today it's equal parts chaotic and iconic. Yes, we're talking about the Martha Stewart Netflix stocko and why the original influencer Jailbird and Snoop's best friend hates it? And why did Kate Middleton's face attract so much attention after Remembrance Day's service in London? Have we just forgotten what women actually look like? Plus dating as a job the new method for single people looking to be unsingle that boasts a scorched earth policy and some very strict criteria. But first, Jesse Stevens.

In case he missed it, Armie Hammer's mum has spoken about a very special birthday present she gifted her son, who is definitely not a literal cannibal. In case you're wondering, Hamma has a new podcast is called Army hammer Time Podcast, and he dropped the second of a two part interview with his mother Drew. Here's what she said.

In case he missed it, Armie Hammer's mum has spoken about a very special birthday present she gifted her son, who is definitely not a literal cannibal. In case you're wondering, Hamma has a new podcast is called Army hammer Time Podcast, and he dropped the second of a two part interview with his mother Drew. Here's what she said.

What did you get?

What did you get?

So I call Army and I go, Army, what would you like for your birthday this year?

So I call Army and I go, Army, what would you like for your birthday this year?

And he goes, oh, I don't know, you know, maybe maybe money whatever. And I was like, I believe I'm going to give you a vas sect to me.

And he goes, oh, I don't know, you know, maybe maybe money whatever. And I was like, I believe I'm going to give you a vas sect to me.

Yeah, so yeah, my mom got me a sex to.

Yeah, so yeah, my mom got me a sex to.

Me for that stupid and by the way, you know, as the church lady, I would love to say, okay, Army, I'm really praying that you don't have sex outside of marriage because under God, sex you know, is in the purity of a marriage and.

Me for that stupid and by the way, you know, as the church lady, I would love to say, okay, Army, I'm really praying that you don't have sex outside of marriage because under God, sex you know, is in the purity of a marriage and.

All this, and I'm thinking that's not gonna work. So now I'm out here blasting away, bro, just throwing it all over the place.

All this, and I'm thinking that's not gonna work. So now I'm out here blasting away, bro, just throwing it all over the place.

She also went on to say how many young women would love to have Armie Hammer's little babies.

She also went on to say how many young women would love to have Armie Hammer's little babies.

I love this interview. It's made my whole week and you can watch the video of it. It's quite extraordinary. It's just the two of them. I think Army's wearing like shorts and thongs and sitting in a chair and his mum's just sitting on the couch and they just set up I think a phone. But she goes on to say it's a miracle after he talks about blasting it everywhere. It's a miracle we don't have a bunch of little hammers running around and he said, yeah, I ate them.

I love this interview. It's made my whole week and you can watch the video of it. It's quite extraordinary. It's just the two of them. I think Army's wearing like shorts and thongs and sitting in a chair and his mum's just sitting on the couch and they just set up I think a phone. But she goes on to say it's a miracle after he talks about blasting it everywhere. It's a miracle we don't have a bunch of little hammers running around and he said, yeah, I ate them.

Wow, that is fucked and a less blasting, Army, less blasting. She also had some thoughts about those allegations that were made in twenty twenty one. Here is how she directly referenced them.

Wow, that is fucked and a less blasting, Army, less blasting. She also had some thoughts about those allegations that were made in twenty twenty one. Here is how she directly referenced them.

Well, you know, I even.

Well, you know, I even.

Called you one time and I was like, okay, let me just get this straight. I go, are there any women out there with ribs or limbs missing? That's what I want to know as a mother, because end of conversation, if there are limbs or ribs missing.

Called you one time and I was like, okay, let me just get this straight. I go, are there any women out there with ribs or limbs missing? That's what I want to know as a mother, because end of conversation, if there are limbs or ribs missing.

She's not having any of these accusations. She's not buying it her Army would not eat a person.

She's not having any of these accusations. She's not buying it her Army would not eat a person.

I do want to say, I'm all for normalizing vasectoms for men. I think it's really important that men take responsibility for family planning. And my husband, for the record, did instagram his vasectomy live, not live, but before and after shock.

I do want to say, I'm all for normalizing vasectoms for men. I think it's really important that men take responsibility for family planning. And my husband, for the record, did instagram his vasectomy live, not live, but before and after shock.

Can you explain? Is it true? I heard that there's a big thing on Super Bowl someday in the US where men go and get their vasectoms and then recover on the couch watching like the day before, and then recover on the couch watching football.

Can you explain? Is it true? I heard that there's a big thing on Super Bowl someday in the US where men go and get their vasectoms and then recover on the couch watching like the day before, and then recover on the couch watching football.

Yees, it's a movie. I have heard that. But it is interesting to note that for sectomy rates in the US are much lower than they are in Australia. Culturally, it's much more taboo, So it's interesting that Army's breaking the fourth wall, as it were.

Yees, it's a movie. I have heard that. But it is interesting to note that for sectomy rates in the US are much lower than they are in Australia. Culturally, it's much more taboo, So it's interesting that Army's breaking the fourth wall, as it were.

I'm also interested when she said I gave him a vasectomy for his birthday. Look, this story is strange. Army is clearly not your usual bear, and I was like, did she just get out the scissors?

I'm also interested when she said I gave him a vasectomy for his birthday. Look, this story is strange. Army is clearly not your usual bear, and I was like, did she just get out the scissors?

I don't know. You love an overshare amongst family members.

I don't know. You love an overshare amongst family members.

So Jamia, would you pay for your son's v sectomy?

So Jamia, would you pay for your son's v sectomy?

For example, I'd pay for it to be reversed so I could have my grandchildren.

For example, I'd pay for it to be reversed so I could have my grandchildren.

I get it.

I get it.

The documentary about Martha Stewart, who is eighty three, dropped on Netflix a couple of weeks ago, and we are ready to talk about whether Martha is actually the original influencer. A quick snapshot of who Martha is in case you've forgotten.

The documentary about Martha Stewart, who is eighty three, dropped on Netflix a couple of weeks ago, and we are ready to talk about whether Martha is actually the original influencer. A quick snapshot of who Martha is in case you've forgotten.

She is the.

She is the.

Queen of homemaking, cooking, and everything lifestyle. She's a TV personality, a business mogul, and the original sort of DIY expert who built an entire empire around making everyday life look fabulous. She started as a model. She then became an investment banker and a stockbroker, and she started her own company. After she wrote a cookbook and then made a magazine, started a media company called Omnimedia, and it listed on the New York Stock Exchange. I think she was on the board of the New York Stock Exchange. And she became America's first female self made billionaire. So she's got an extraordinary legacy, really, most of which I didn't know what had forgotten about. So her brand is all about like fancy recipes, home dcort tips, gardening ideas, entertainment advice, and this documentary covered her whole life because she's got a fascinating life. As if that wasn't interesting enough, She then went to prison for insider trading, well not quite insider trading, but for a scandal around insider trading, and she was in prison for about five months. In two thousand and four, there was a big, very public celebrity court case. Her legacy is that she's basically a household name, and if you've ever googled how to set a table, I don't know do people google about you would have found her. A few key moments from the documentary have gone viral, including a chat that she had about infidelity in her marriage. So she was married to this guy called Andrew Stewart from when she was quite young, I think she was nineteen. She kissed someone else on her honeymoon. She was in Italy in the Duomo and a moment overcame her and she had a quick past with a stranger, and then she had another short lived affair. But her husband had many affairs before they eventually divorced. Here's the conversation she had with the interviewer in the documentary about infidelity.

Queen of homemaking, cooking, and everything lifestyle. She's a TV personality, a business mogul, and the original sort of DIY expert who built an entire empire around making everyday life look fabulous. She started as a model. She then became an investment banker and a stockbroker, and she started her own company. After she wrote a cookbook and then made a magazine, started a media company called Omnimedia, and it listed on the New York Stock Exchange. I think she was on the board of the New York Stock Exchange. And she became America's first female self made billionaire. So she's got an extraordinary legacy, really, most of which I didn't know what had forgotten about. So her brand is all about like fancy recipes, home dcort tips, gardening ideas, entertainment advice, and this documentary covered her whole life because she's got a fascinating life. As if that wasn't interesting enough, She then went to prison for insider trading, well not quite insider trading, but for a scandal around insider trading, and she was in prison for about five months. In two thousand and four, there was a big, very public celebrity court case. Her legacy is that she's basically a household name, and if you've ever googled how to set a table, I don't know do people google about you would have found her. A few key moments from the documentary have gone viral, including a chat that she had about infidelity in her marriage. So she was married to this guy called Andrew Stewart from when she was quite young, I think she was nineteen. She kissed someone else on her honeymoon. She was in Italy in the Duomo and a moment overcame her and she had a quick past with a stranger, and then she had another short lived affair. But her husband had many affairs before they eventually divorced. Here's the conversation she had with the interviewer in the documentary about infidelity.

I don't know how many different girlfriends he had during this time. But I think there were quite a few young women. Listen to my advice. If you're married and you think you're happily married and your husband started to cheat on you, he's a piece of shit, and look at him. It's a piece of shit, and get out of it, get out of that marriage. But I couldn't do that, couldn't walk away. Didn't you have an affair early on in the relationship or when you were a Yeah, but I don't think Andy ever knew about that.

I don't know how many different girlfriends he had during this time. But I think there were quite a few young women. Listen to my advice. If you're married and you think you're happily married and your husband started to cheat on you, he's a piece of shit, and look at him. It's a piece of shit, and get out of it, get out of that marriage. But I couldn't do that, couldn't walk away. Didn't you have an affair early on in the relationship or when you were a Yeah, but I don't think Andy ever knew about that.

He did say anything about it.

He did say anything about it.

He did, Yes, you would confess to him.

He did, Yes, you would confess to him.

Sess He didn't straight from the marriage until you told him you had already straight.

Sess He didn't straight from the marriage until you told him you had already straight.

Oh that's not true. I don't think.

Oh that's not true. I don't think.

Amelia and I've watched this documentary. We adored it. Jesse hasn't seen it yet. What was interesting to me was realizing that all this talk about Ballerina farm and Nara Smith, all these tradwives and influencers who make the work of homemaking and parenting look effortless while running these big businesses and making a huge amount of money from looking effortless. She really was the original influencer. Didn't you think, Amelia so What was your takeaways from the documentary.

Amelia and I've watched this documentary. We adored it. Jesse hasn't seen it yet. What was interesting to me was realizing that all this talk about Ballerina farm and Nara Smith, all these tradwives and influencers who make the work of homemaking and parenting look effortless while running these big businesses and making a huge amount of money from looking effortless. She really was the original influencer. Didn't you think, Amelia so What was your takeaways from the documentary.

Yeah, it got me thinking about what an influencer is and what makes for an influencer. There was this recent survey of the American Labor Force that said seven percent of Americans describe themselves as influencers as their job. Now, this climate can't be true, the figure cannot be that high. But when you think about what makes for an influencer, it comes down to a person who can get other people to spend money. That's what it comes down to. I read a great definition of it recently by Emily Sunberg at the newsletter The Feed. She wrote, what the followers of these women really want is to step into their lives for a few minutes each day. And that got me thinking about how you can draw a straight line from Martha Stewart to Gwyneth Paltrow, and then I would argue a dotted line from both those women to Zoe Foster Blake.

Yeah, it got me thinking about what an influencer is and what makes for an influencer. There was this recent survey of the American Labor Force that said seven percent of Americans describe themselves as influencers as their job. Now, this climate can't be true, the figure cannot be that high. But when you think about what makes for an influencer, it comes down to a person who can get other people to spend money. That's what it comes down to. I read a great definition of it recently by Emily Sunberg at the newsletter The Feed. She wrote, what the followers of these women really want is to step into their lives for a few minutes each day. And that got me thinking about how you can draw a straight line from Martha Stewart to Gwyneth Paltrow, and then I would argue a dotted line from both those women to Zoe Foster Blake.

That's interesting. So all women who have built incredible business empires and who other women are really obsessed with their lives.

That's interesting. So all women who have built incredible business empires and who other women are really obsessed with their lives.

Yeah, they get us to take out our wallets. They've successfully monetized not just their taste, I would say, but their lives. We think, for a few minutes each day, if we buy a Martha Stuart Kmart piece of home wears, or if we buy Gwyneth's new skincare line or Zoe foster Blake skincare line, we're actually wanting to grab a piece of their lives.

Yeah, they get us to take out our wallets. They've successfully monetized not just their taste, I would say, but their lives. We think, for a few minutes each day, if we buy a Martha Stuart Kmart piece of home wears, or if we buy Gwyneth's new skincare line or Zoe foster Blake skincare line, we're actually wanting to grab a piece of their lives.

But isn't that the same with every celebrity who's ever endorsed a product, every celebrity who has a fragrance.

But isn't that the same with every celebrity who's ever endorsed a product, every celebrity who has a fragrance.

I don't think so. And this is where I actually think Martha Stewart is unlike a lot of influencers, and that is that she is, as far as I can tell, extremely talented. For example, it started with cooking and catering. That is a real skill. It can be kind of disparaged in the treadwife world, but being a great cook is like it's a really good skill. And then there's interior design and then even like how to set a table, like there is real status in that. And it's the same with Zoe Foster Blake. I think this pouchhow is very good at marketing. But I wonder if that's a bit of the tension that's emerged between them.

I don't think so. And this is where I actually think Martha Stewart is unlike a lot of influencers, and that is that she is, as far as I can tell, extremely talented. For example, it started with cooking and catering. That is a real skill. It can be kind of disparaged in the treadwife world, but being a great cook is like it's a really good skill. And then there's interior design and then even like how to set a table, like there is real status in that. And it's the same with Zoe Foster Blake. I think this pouchhow is very good at marketing. But I wonder if that's a bit of the tension that's emerged between them.

I would call Zoe and Gwyneth and Martha influential, not influenzas I would actually put Zoe quite separate. Although it's interesting for all of those women, they are naturally talented at a particular thing. For Zoe it's writing, she's a brilliant writer. For Gwyneth, it's acting. For Martha, it was actually cooking and homemaking. And I think what's interesting about her and what the documentary, which she didn't like. By the way, she's come out and said a whole lot of things that she didn't like about it. You could hear she probably didn't like that in exchange about the infidelity, but she critiqued almost everything, from camera angles to music choices. She told The New York Times she hated the scenes at the end, where she said she looked like a lonely old lady walking hunched over in the garden. She didn't like how she looked on camera. She thought there should have been more rap music involved and that would have been more interesting. And it made me see how many documentaries that we watch about celebrities, and there's a whole host of them at the moment, from Harry and Meghan to the David Beckham documentary. They're now making one about Victoria Beckham, Taylor Swift. Of course, they all have creative control and approval. And even Oprah, who Apple was making a documentary about and they finished and she paid to buy it back so it would never be released because she didn't like it. And I think that's why I like this documentary. What did it make you feel about Martha herself?

I would call Zoe and Gwyneth and Martha influential, not influenzas I would actually put Zoe quite separate. Although it's interesting for all of those women, they are naturally talented at a particular thing. For Zoe it's writing, she's a brilliant writer. For Gwyneth, it's acting. For Martha, it was actually cooking and homemaking. And I think what's interesting about her and what the documentary, which she didn't like. By the way, she's come out and said a whole lot of things that she didn't like about it. You could hear she probably didn't like that in exchange about the infidelity, but she critiqued almost everything, from camera angles to music choices. She told The New York Times she hated the scenes at the end, where she said she looked like a lonely old lady walking hunched over in the garden. She didn't like how she looked on camera. She thought there should have been more rap music involved and that would have been more interesting. And it made me see how many documentaries that we watch about celebrities, and there's a whole host of them at the moment, from Harry and Meghan to the David Beckham documentary. They're now making one about Victoria Beckham, Taylor Swift. Of course, they all have creative control and approval. And even Oprah, who Apple was making a documentary about and they finished and she paid to buy it back so it would never be released because she didn't like it. And I think that's why I like this documentary. What did it make you feel about Martha herself?

Amelia, Well, I think that's why I want to push back on Jesse's idea that it's about skill. I think all three of these women are so smart, so brilliant, they deserve every dollar that they've made. But I think that their greatest skill is marketing. And is marketing an idea of perfect imperfection or imperfect perfection. This word perfect comes up for Martha all the time. That's what she was selling with the perfectly made tables and the perfect Thanksgiving turkeys.

Amelia, Well, I think that's why I want to push back on Jesse's idea that it's about skill. I think all three of these women are so smart, so brilliant, they deserve every dollar that they've made. But I think that their greatest skill is marketing. And is marketing an idea of perfect imperfection or imperfect perfection. This word perfect comes up for Martha all the time. That's what she was selling with the perfectly made tables and the perfect Thanksgiving turkeys.

But the idea is that she lets us.

But the idea is that she lets us.

In to tiny parts of her life that are anything but perfect, and she keeps us wanting more from it. So a couple of things that come up in the dosh.

In to tiny parts of her life that are anything but perfect, and she keeps us wanting more from it. So a couple of things that come up in the dosh.

You mean in the documentary, because not in her before she went to prison, like her magazines and her public persona, does she let us in she certainly didn't used to because there was all that stuff about how she was the Queen of mean before it came out about Ellen. It reminded me so much of that thing about the worst thing a woman can do in business or in life is be assertive. And it showed some scenes of Martha's Stewitt in the kitchen with people who were working with her for her, and she was really rude to them and really short.

You mean in the documentary, because not in her before she went to prison, like her magazines and her public persona, does she let us in she certainly didn't used to because there was all that stuff about how she was the Queen of mean before it came out about Ellen. It reminded me so much of that thing about the worst thing a woman can do in business or in life is be assertive. And it showed some scenes of Martha's Stewitt in the kitchen with people who were working with her for her, and she was really rude to them and really short.

That's true, but she's now a huge influencer in her own right coming out of prison letting it all hang out in this documentary. The New York Times had recently that she is a gen Z beauty influencer, and she specifically, what do you mean? So she advertises clay to Postkincare, which is a really expensive skincare brand. The creams are all four hundred dollars and up on TikTok from her Connecticut mansion. She's routinely getting seventy eighty million views for these skincare advertisements, and so the relatability of it is part of why she's taken off with a new generation. So let's run through a few things that she talks about quite frankly in this documentary the first marriage ending in divorce, as we've discussed, and she shares with the documentary makers letters that she sent her ex husband begging him to take her back. That's an extraordinary amount of disclosure.

That's true, but she's now a huge influencer in her own right coming out of prison letting it all hang out in this documentary. The New York Times had recently that she is a gen Z beauty influencer, and she specifically, what do you mean? So she advertises clay to Postkincare, which is a really expensive skincare brand. The creams are all four hundred dollars and up on TikTok from her Connecticut mansion. She's routinely getting seventy eighty million views for these skincare advertisements, and so the relatability of it is part of why she's taken off with a new generation. So let's run through a few things that she talks about quite frankly in this documentary the first marriage ending in divorce, as we've discussed, and she shares with the documentary makers letters that she sent her ex husband begging him to take her back. That's an extraordinary amount of disclosure.

That was quite j lo. I thought it was.

That was quite j lo. I thought it was.

She's admitted that she didn't feel naturally maternal towards her daughter Alexis, and this is something that her daughter has spoken about over the years, the fact that while she and her mother are very close, her mother was never a straightforwardly maternal figure for her. She didn't come.

She's admitted that she didn't feel naturally maternal towards her daughter Alexis, and this is something that her daughter has spoken about over the years, the fact that while she and her mother are very close, her mother was never a straightforwardly maternal figure for her. She didn't come.

Across as very warm. And I kept finding myself texting, you, have you ever seen a more unlikable woman like her? Unlikability? And I know this is a real weapon that we use against women, this idea of needing to be likable. What was interesting is that she wasn't trying to be likable.

Across as very warm. And I kept finding myself texting, you, have you ever seen a more unlikable woman like her? Unlikability? And I know this is a real weapon that we use against women, this idea of needing to be likable. What was interesting is that she wasn't trying to be likable.

No, when Nora's Gwyneth, by the way, Gwyneth is also I.

No, when Nora's Gwyneth, by the way, Gwyneth is also I.

Feel like Gwyneth tries to be likable. I think Martha is really like, yeah, I didn't like being a mum that much. My husband was a dickhead. People need to be better.

Feel like Gwyneth tries to be likable. I think Martha is really like, yeah, I didn't like being a mum that much. My husband was a dickhead. People need to be better.

She was on Drew Barrymore's show this week and Drew's famously touchy with her guests, and she just pushed her away. I loved that.

She was on Drew Barrymore's show this week and Drew's famously touchy with her guests, and she just pushed her away. I loved that.

I think it's the complexity that makes her a complicated monet painting that we can't stop staring at, because in a lot of ways she actually subverts the feminine. It's like, in one way she's the antitrad wife. Even her voice is a bit deeper, she's disagreeable. She doesn't come across as pleasant. It doesn't seem to be like her aim to come across as pleasant. Like compare that to a ballerina farm Hannah Nielman, who from the high voice to the slow talking to the there's something so tranquil about it and subservient.

I think it's the complexity that makes her a complicated monet painting that we can't stop staring at, because in a lot of ways she actually subverts the feminine. It's like, in one way she's the antitrad wife. Even her voice is a bit deeper, she's disagreeable. She doesn't come across as pleasant. It doesn't seem to be like her aim to come across as pleasant. Like compare that to a ballerina farm Hannah Nielman, who from the high voice to the slow talking to the there's something so tranquil about it and subservient.

They're both very much with Hannah Nielman's husband and Nara Smith's husband, Lucky Blue. It's always in the service. They're working in the service of their husband and children, and they're always very much in the service. Whereas that's so interesting, Martha's more about I'm doing this because I like, I want a nice table, and I want to be gardening, and I want to be making a nice Christmas dinner because it gives me joy.

They're both very much with Hannah Nielman's husband and Nara Smith's husband, Lucky Blue. It's always in the service. They're working in the service of their husband and children, and they're always very much in the service. Whereas that's so interesting, Martha's more about I'm doing this because I like, I want a nice table, and I want to be gardening, and I want to be making a nice Christmas dinner because it gives me joy.

And she fucked the rest of you and she flirts with the male gaze, but she also rejects it. So she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She dates famous man. She dated Anthony Hopkins, which I didn't know, but she broke up with him because she said she couldn't stop thinking about Hannibal Lecter. And she's spoken up very openly about how difficult it has been for her to date in midlife and beyond.

And she fucked the rest of you and she flirts with the male gaze, but she also rejects it. So she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She dates famous man. She dated Anthony Hopkins, which I didn't know, but she broke up with him because she said she couldn't stop thinking about Hannibal Lecter. And she's spoken up very openly about how difficult it has been for her to date in midlife and beyond.

She's quite beyond midlife. I would say she's eighty three. Is she still dating?

She's quite beyond midlife. I would say she's eighty three. Is she still dating?

She is, And she.

She is, And she.

Says that she's got no plans to retire, like she doesn't see anything appealing about retirement. But I was thinking about a quote I read recently about fame and how people become famous to feel understood. That's the number one reason is that they want people to understand them. And after that documentary, there was a headline that said she still doesn't feel understood, and she doesn't, and I wonder if that's why she doesn't want to retire. She's not done yet. She feels like people don't fully get her. And that's my question, as someone who hasn't watched the documentary. Are we laughing at Martha Stuart or are we laughing with Martha Stuart because she's become this cultural icon in the last few years. She kind of pops up with Snoop Dogg. She's like, again, this complicated figure and I've seen viral clips from this, like the one about her affairs and her relationships and stuff, and I have a laugh. But do you think she feels like we're laughing at her?

Says that she's got no plans to retire, like she doesn't see anything appealing about retirement. But I was thinking about a quote I read recently about fame and how people become famous to feel understood. That's the number one reason is that they want people to understand them. And after that documentary, there was a headline that said she still doesn't feel understood, and she doesn't, and I wonder if that's why she doesn't want to retire. She's not done yet. She feels like people don't fully get her. And that's my question, as someone who hasn't watched the documentary. Are we laughing at Martha Stuart or are we laughing with Martha Stuart because she's become this cultural icon in the last few years. She kind of pops up with Snoop Dogg. She's like, again, this complicated figure and I've seen viral clips from this, like the one about her affairs and her relationships and stuff, and I have a laugh. But do you think she feels like we're laughing at her?

What a great question. No, I think that she's more like, you know, how Betty White became iconic, Yeah, and Ruth Baty Ginsburg was iconic. I know that's different. She was the Supreme Court judge and has her own complicated history. But I don't I think people are laughing at her. I'm not laughing.

What a great question. No, I think that she's more like, you know, how Betty White became iconic, Yeah, and Ruth Baty Ginsburg was iconic. I know that's different. She was the Supreme Court judge and has her own complicated history. But I don't I think people are laughing at her. I'm not laughing.

About Miron's another one.

About Miron's another one.

Yeah, yeah, the Queen. Like it's kind of like, I hate to say it, but like they're so old they're cool.

Yeah, yeah, the Queen. Like it's kind of like, I hate to say it, but like they're so old they're cool.

Yeah, exactly, It's like they've come back again. It's like retro. Was this documentary good for her brand or bad?

Yeah, exactly, It's like they've come back again. It's like retro. Was this documentary good for her brand or bad?

Well? I think the very fact that she's still selling really expensive skincare to gen z on TikTok means that it was great for her brand. I think we now crave the deconstruction of perfection that she's revealing to us in this, don't you think, Miah, Yeah, And I think that what it did do Jesse, that's so interesting what you say about they want to be understood.

Well? I think the very fact that she's still selling really expensive skincare to gen z on TikTok means that it was great for her brand. I think we now crave the deconstruction of perfection that she's revealing to us in this, don't you think, Miah, Yeah, And I think that what it did do Jesse, that's so interesting what you say about they want to be understood.

I think that's incredibly astute. I think what it reminded me a little bit like watching the Menendez Brothers documentary. I think, I know what I think about these people. And I thought I knew what I thought about Martha Stewart, but I changed my mind after watching the documentary and I was like, oh, that was bullshit that she got sent to prison. Yeah, it is like, yeah, soso bad. And similarly to the Menandez brothers, like I thought that they'd made up all those allegations. That was my understanding because the reason I think that where relooking at all of these things. You know, we've got this segment all or nothing where you either know everything about a topic or nothing. The Internet allows you to know everything about any topic if you want to. But back in the nineties and the eighties and until the last ten years, there was a limited amount of information you could get about a certain topic. You know, if you wanted to dive deep, there wasn't really a way you could particularly for someone like Martha Stewart who wasn't iconic in Australia, and same with the Menendez brothers. I was kind of dimly aware of that story, but now it's like these stories are international.

I think that's incredibly astute. I think what it reminded me a little bit like watching the Menendez Brothers documentary. I think, I know what I think about these people. And I thought I knew what I thought about Martha Stewart, but I changed my mind after watching the documentary and I was like, oh, that was bullshit that she got sent to prison. Yeah, it is like, yeah, soso bad. And similarly to the Menandez brothers, like I thought that they'd made up all those allegations. That was my understanding because the reason I think that where relooking at all of these things. You know, we've got this segment all or nothing where you either know everything about a topic or nothing. The Internet allows you to know everything about any topic if you want to. But back in the nineties and the eighties and until the last ten years, there was a limited amount of information you could get about a certain topic. You know, if you wanted to dive deep, there wasn't really a way you could particularly for someone like Martha Stewart who wasn't iconic in Australia, and same with the Menendez brothers. I was kind of dimly aware of that story, but now it's like these stories are international.

You're also making me think about how I felt after watching Harry and Meghan's documentary versus how I felt watching this. Once I'd watched Harry and Megan's documentary, I didn't need to know anything else. But having watched the Martha documentary, it's like Jesse said, she's a monet painting. I want to know everything, and I still don't know everything.

You're also making me think about how I felt after watching Harry and Meghan's documentary versus how I felt watching this. Once I'd watched Harry and Megan's documentary, I didn't need to know anything else. But having watched the Martha documentary, it's like Jesse said, she's a monet painting. I want to know everything, and I still don't know everything.

When you say that about Harry and Meghan, do you mean I'd like I'd eaten too much at the buffet, Like all the mystery was gone, all the interest was gone.

When you say that about Harry and Meghan, do you mean I'd like I'd eaten too much at the buffet, Like all the mystery was gone, all the interest was gone.

There wasn't the push pull of that collaboration between a director and their subject. This was more of a push pool dynamic, and so there were points where it was uncomfortable. There are a lot of points where it was uncomfortable. The filmmaker would leave the camera on Martha as she finished a thought and then wanted the camera to be turned off, and I felt like that push pool made me want to know more.

There wasn't the push pull of that collaboration between a director and their subject. This was more of a push pool dynamic, and so there were points where it was uncomfortable. There are a lot of points where it was uncomfortable. The filmmaker would leave the camera on Martha as she finished a thought and then wanted the camera to be turned off, and I felt like that push pool made me want to know more.

The other thing that Martha appears to have done, at least in what I've read and clips I've seen, is that she owns that she's really, really rich, and she quite likes being really really rich, which we don't see very often with women in Australia. You would never ever get away with it. But watching that and watching a woman who owns it is sort of refreshing, but also complicated.

The other thing that Martha appears to have done, at least in what I've read and clips I've seen, is that she owns that she's really, really rich, and she quite likes being really really rich, which we don't see very often with women in Australia. You would never ever get away with it. But watching that and watching a woman who owns it is sort of refreshing, but also complicated.

The fact that she's self made. And I keep coming back to what you say about not feeling understood. She doesn't get the credit she deserves, as so many female business owners don't, and I would include Zoe among them, where it's like they have built these multi million dollar empires entirely on their own, and that's pretty bloody impressive. Is she still as culturally relevant in America as she used to be?

The fact that she's self made. And I keep coming back to what you say about not feeling understood. She doesn't get the credit she deserves, as so many female business owners don't, and I would include Zoe among them, where it's like they have built these multi million dollar empires entirely on their own, and that's pretty bloody impressive. Is she still as culturally relevant in America as she used to be?

I think she's even more so. They talk about in the documentary. This big turning point for her was when she went on a roast of Justin Bieber in twenty fourteen. That's when she actually met Snoop Dogg and they became very good friends. She had been out of the public eye for a long time after prison. She was a punchline to your earlier question, Jesse, she was a South Park punchline in fact, But then when she went back on Comedy Central and this roast of Justin Bieber, people thought that the jokes were really ribald and funny and definitely pushed the envelope. Were you shocked by that? I didn't.

I think she's even more so. They talk about in the documentary. This big turning point for her was when she went on a roast of Justin Bieber in twenty fourteen. That's when she actually met Snoop Dogg and they became very good friends. She had been out of the public eye for a long time after prison. She was a punchline to your earlier question, Jesse, she was a South Park punchline in fact, But then when she went back on Comedy Central and this roast of Justin Bieber, people thought that the jokes were really ribald and funny and definitely pushed the envelope. Were you shocked by that? I didn't.

Yeah, I didn't get to that part of the documentary. I got distracted.

Yeah, I didn't get to that part of the documentary. I got distracted.

Well, I was shocked by the jokes and how like, what were they? They really pushed the envelope.

Well, I was shocked by the jokes and how like, what were they? They really pushed the envelope.

Rip bold is not a word you hear often on this podcast.

Rip bold is not a word you hear often on this podcast.

There were jokes that sort of pushed the envelope in terms of how you talk about race. There were jokes that also people made fun of her for being really, really old, and she laughed about it, wearing her leather leggings and her Dreasman note and embroidered jacket. I mean, she just came across as tough as nails, and I think we really at this point respond to that and with no fucks to give.

There were jokes that sort of pushed the envelope in terms of how you talk about race. There were jokes that also people made fun of her for being really, really old, and she laughed about it, wearing her leather leggings and her Dreasman note and embroidered jacket. I mean, she just came across as tough as nails, and I think we really at this point respond to that and with no fucks to give.

It's nice to see Snoop again.

It's nice to see Snoop again.

One of the highest rated episodes on my show, Martha Stewart Living was when Snoop and I made brownies together. And I've used this recipe ever since. As a matter of fact, I ate three of them right before they called and asked me to do this.

One of the highest rated episodes on my show, Martha Stewart Living was when Snoop and I made brownies together. And I've used this recipe ever since. As a matter of fact, I ate three of them right before they called and asked me to do this.

Rose in a moment. A UK TV presenter made a comment about Kate Middleton on the weekend and let's just say it got us all thinking out loud.

Rose in a moment. A UK TV presenter made a comment about Kate Middleton on the weekend and let's just say it got us all thinking out loud.

An article ran in Grazia on Tuesday with the headline She's aged so much. The vile commentary around Kate Middleton's appearance needs to stop. At first, I rolled my eyes because it felt like one of those classic Internet tropes of using mock horror to incentivize people to click on a less than flattering photo. I thought, this is just engagement baiting. The publication says, they're saying this is a terrible photo. They're saying she looks old, how offensive. Here's the photo, please leave comments below. And from that I just went I'm not going to engage. But then I saw where the comments had come from and I thought that this actually was a valid news story. First, I should say Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales, appeared at a remembrance Sunday service in London and since completing her chemotherapy treat in September, She's been slowly returning to royal duties, and images of her in a black dress and a black hat were published widely online. We can, of course expect the internet to be cruel, there's nothing new about that. But there was one particular comment on X from a high profile British TV presenter who regularly appears on Good Morning Britain and Loose Women. Her name is Narinda Corp. She shared an image of Middleton with the comment genuine question, why has Kate aged so much? Isn't she only forty two? Is she a smoker? It's the only explanation.

An article ran in Grazia on Tuesday with the headline She's aged so much. The vile commentary around Kate Middleton's appearance needs to stop. At first, I rolled my eyes because it felt like one of those classic Internet tropes of using mock horror to incentivize people to click on a less than flattering photo. I thought, this is just engagement baiting. The publication says, they're saying this is a terrible photo. They're saying she looks old, how offensive. Here's the photo, please leave comments below. And from that I just went I'm not going to engage. But then I saw where the comments had come from and I thought that this actually was a valid news story. First, I should say Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales, appeared at a remembrance Sunday service in London and since completing her chemotherapy treat in September, She's been slowly returning to royal duties, and images of her in a black dress and a black hat were published widely online. We can, of course expect the internet to be cruel, there's nothing new about that. But there was one particular comment on X from a high profile British TV presenter who regularly appears on Good Morning Britain and Loose Women. Her name is Narinda Corp. She shared an image of Middleton with the comment genuine question, why has Kate aged so much? Isn't she only forty two? Is she a smoker? It's the only explanation.

Was she high? This woman?

Was she high? This woman?

It's the most bizarre tweet.

It's the most bizarre tweet.

If you want to think it. I can't control what you think, but like, firstly, did you miss the cancer part? And secondly why share that with the world? Like what did she think she was doing?

If you want to think it. I can't control what you think, but like, firstly, did you miss the cancer part? And secondly why share that with the world? Like what did she think she was doing?

Yes? So she's since apologized. Unsurprisingly, she faced a lot of backlash. She apologized with a video on social media, and here's what she said.

Yes? So she's since apologized. Unsurprisingly, she faced a lot of backlash. She apologized with a video on social media, and here's what she said.

I put out a stupid tweet that wasn't my intention. My intent was not to be malicious or nasty or anything. I'm not like that. Anybody who knows me it was stupid to ask about the aging. I've admitted that, and I put my hands up and I've apologized if it caused offense. I didn't wish death on anyone. I didn't do anything like that. I asked about aging. She smoked nothing to do with cancer.

I put out a stupid tweet that wasn't my intention. My intent was not to be malicious or nasty or anything. I'm not like that. Anybody who knows me it was stupid to ask about the aging. I've admitted that, and I put my hands up and I've apologized if it caused offense. I didn't wish death on anyone. I didn't do anything like that. I asked about aging. She smoked nothing to do with cancer.

Yeah, so I think that the emission of the cancer was actually kind of the problem. But Google trends, since all this has happened, Google Trends shows a spike in searchers for Kate Middleton looks Tired, Kate Middleton aging, and Kate Middleton looks old. My question is what is wrong with us?

Yeah, so I think that the emission of the cancer was actually kind of the problem. But Google trends, since all this has happened, Google Trends shows a spike in searchers for Kate Middleton looks Tired, Kate Middleton aging, and Kate Middleton looks old. My question is what is wrong with us?

My question is how are those Google searchers. Kate Middleton looks tired is a statement.

My question is how are those Google searchers. Kate Middleton looks tired is a statement.

I would defend that, not defendant explain it in saying, if you're looking for the original, you'd heard something about it and you wanted you knew it would link you with the photo or the original apsource material. I'm going to now not defend nerindacal, but kind of defend her after saying I think she was high, and of course she should never have said it. What I think this is an indication of, however, is actually nothing to do with Kate Middleton it's about the fact that we don't know what women look like anymore. We're just not sure what women are meant to look like because everyone famous kind of looks this same weird age, whether they're Nicole Kidman who's almost sixty, or Kylie Jenner. Everyone is sort of this nondescript, strange age. So if there's a time that a woman is perhaps not having the tweakments that she once had, or she is tired, or maybe she's recovering from cancer, or who knows what is happening, we're just like, oh, wait, what does a female face look like anymore? I actually don't know. And it's something that friends and I in my group chats often do when we see someone's not in this way where it's like, oh, doesn't she look tired. It's almost like a CSI forensic analysis of trying to understand how women look a certain way, not necessarily because we want to emulate them, but just trying to understand this look that people have.

I would defend that, not defendant explain it in saying, if you're looking for the original, you'd heard something about it and you wanted you knew it would link you with the photo or the original apsource material. I'm going to now not defend nerindacal, but kind of defend her after saying I think she was high, and of course she should never have said it. What I think this is an indication of, however, is actually nothing to do with Kate Middleton it's about the fact that we don't know what women look like anymore. We're just not sure what women are meant to look like because everyone famous kind of looks this same weird age, whether they're Nicole Kidman who's almost sixty, or Kylie Jenner. Everyone is sort of this nondescript, strange age. So if there's a time that a woman is perhaps not having the tweakments that she once had, or she is tired, or maybe she's recovering from cancer, or who knows what is happening, we're just like, oh, wait, what does a female face look like anymore? I actually don't know. And it's something that friends and I in my group chats often do when we see someone's not in this way where it's like, oh, doesn't she look tired. It's almost like a CSI forensic analysis of trying to understand how women look a certain way, not necessarily because we want to emulate them, but just trying to understand this look that people have.

Yeah, it's like the old adage that cosmetic surgery doesn't necessarily make you look younger, it just makes it look like you had cosmetic surgery. And when now there's this growing bucket of women for whom age is just a number and they're sort of untethered from the timeline.

Yeah, it's like the old adage that cosmetic surgery doesn't necessarily make you look younger, it just makes it look like you had cosmetic surgery. And when now there's this growing bucket of women for whom age is just a number and they're sort of untethered from the timeline.

I think that the chemo, the health context, and the smoking comment is all really critical to this story. The smoking comment was so revealing, and it was revealing because we look at aging now as a personal failing, almost like I can see that you haven't prioritized your health, But.

I think that the chemo, the health context, and the smoking comment is all really critical to this story. The smoking comment was so revealing, and it was revealing because we look at aging now as a personal failing, almost like I can see that you haven't prioritized your health, But.

Isn't it I know you haven't prioritized your face.

Isn't it I know you haven't prioritized your face.

Yes, but I think that what we've done is we have made your face a proxy for health in a way that's not the truth, but that's what we It's like the shorthand now is someone goes and gets the tweakments and they look well, and so it's almost like this moral failing if you don't get all of those, because people go, oh, that is the number one reason women I know say they've had the tweagments is that they don't want to look tired. Not that they want to look younger, but that they want to look well. They want to look healthy.

Yes, but I think that what we've done is we have made your face a proxy for health in a way that's not the truth, but that's what we It's like the shorthand now is someone goes and gets the tweakments and they look well, and so it's almost like this moral failing if you don't get all of those, because people go, oh, that is the number one reason women I know say they've had the tweagments is that they don't want to look tired. Not that they want to look younger, but that they want to look well. They want to look healthy.

Because we're a raising effort. Isn't that what it's all about? Isn't that what beauty standards are about? Back to Martha Stewart, and influencers. We're raising the effort and we're also raising the biology of growing older because ironically, if Kate and it's just seems so yucky to even be talking about this, but if Kate is looking a certain way, you know, she also got criticized and people commented when she looked completely untouched by her cancer treatment when she was first appeared at the Trooping of the Color in that white dress. And I think that's so interesting, Jesse, because it made me think about the controversy that happened in twenty thirteen when Hillary Mantel, the late book Or Prize winner, gave a lecture at the British Museum called Royal Bodies. And it was around the time, ironically, Kate had withdrawn from public life because she had severe morning sickness. And what she said was she was talking about the role of royal women and how essentially their role is purely to be ornamental and it is purely about their esthetics and also breed. And she said Kate seems to have been selected for her role of princess because she was irreproachable, as painfully thin as anyone could wish, without quirks, without oddities, without the risk of the emergence of character. She appears precision made, machine made, so different from Diana, whose human awkwardness and emotional incontinence showed her every gesture. I thought this was so interesting because as much like that is Kate's role. It's not to have a person or opinions, or to do a physical job. It's to be ornamental and shine the light of her attractiveness on whatever she's standing next to, whether it's the king or the heir, her son, or the charity that she's promoting.

Because we're a raising effort. Isn't that what it's all about? Isn't that what beauty standards are about? Back to Martha Stewart, and influencers. We're raising the effort and we're also raising the biology of growing older because ironically, if Kate and it's just seems so yucky to even be talking about this, but if Kate is looking a certain way, you know, she also got criticized and people commented when she looked completely untouched by her cancer treatment when she was first appeared at the Trooping of the Color in that white dress. And I think that's so interesting, Jesse, because it made me think about the controversy that happened in twenty thirteen when Hillary Mantel, the late book Or Prize winner, gave a lecture at the British Museum called Royal Bodies. And it was around the time, ironically, Kate had withdrawn from public life because she had severe morning sickness. And what she said was she was talking about the role of royal women and how essentially their role is purely to be ornamental and it is purely about their esthetics and also breed. And she said Kate seems to have been selected for her role of princess because she was irreproachable, as painfully thin as anyone could wish, without quirks, without oddities, without the risk of the emergence of character. She appears precision made, machine made, so different from Diana, whose human awkwardness and emotional incontinence showed her every gesture. I thought this was so interesting because as much like that is Kate's role. It's not to have a person or opinions, or to do a physical job. It's to be ornamental and shine the light of her attractiveness on whatever she's standing next to, whether it's the king or the heir, her son, or the charity that she's promoting.

Mantel got a lot of criticism for that at the time, I remember, and then eventually she came out and said, look, that wasn't intended as criticism. I was actually trying to sympathize with Kate's plight. She is trapped. She has to be perfect no matter what, and that's very much a prison. And it made me think of the fact that she got all this criticism Kate did when that video came out recently of her and the family announcing that she had completed her treatment. A Guardian article by Hillary Osborne, which was published about that video, described it as soft focus. She was very disparaging. She said that look. The author had been through cancer treatment, and she said, I found this video upsetting because it seemed to underplay the strain of cancer treatment. Yeah.

Mantel got a lot of criticism for that at the time, I remember, and then eventually she came out and said, look, that wasn't intended as criticism. I was actually trying to sympathize with Kate's plight. She is trapped. She has to be perfect no matter what, and that's very much a prison. And it made me think of the fact that she got all this criticism Kate did when that video came out recently of her and the family announcing that she had completed her treatment. A Guardian article by Hillary Osborne, which was published about that video, described it as soft focus. She was very disparaging. She said that look. The author had been through cancer treatment, and she said, I found this video upsetting because it seemed to underplay the strain of cancer treatment. Yeah.

I was joking with my friends if she's out scouting for fields to run through. But I don't blame Kate Middleton for doing that, because that's what the public needs.

I was joking with my friends if she's out scouting for fields to run through. But I don't blame Kate Middleton for doing that, because that's what the public needs.

If she doesn't do it, she's told that she's a secret smoker who's tired. Yeah, she really is trapped in that way that Hillary Mantel highlighted. That same article had a phrase in it that I've been thinking about a lot. I have some loved ones going through cancer treatment. She talked to in the article about how after you finish chemo, you linger in a sort of grayness, and that idea of grayness and the physical aftershocks of it go beyond the hair that we all think of, for instance, to this overall grayness of demeanor. And it must be really hard if you are expected to be a perfect plastic princess, as Hillary Mantel put it, when you're feeling that grayness.

If she doesn't do it, she's told that she's a secret smoker who's tired. Yeah, she really is trapped in that way that Hillary Mantel highlighted. That same article had a phrase in it that I've been thinking about a lot. I have some loved ones going through cancer treatment. She talked to in the article about how after you finish chemo, you linger in a sort of grayness, and that idea of grayness and the physical aftershocks of it go beyond the hair that we all think of, for instance, to this overall grayness of demeanor. And it must be really hard if you are expected to be a perfect plastic princess, as Hillary Mantel put it, when you're feeling that grayness.

Yes, there is the particular role that a princess plays, but even for women who have survived cancer, and that is a whole you know, physical experience I can't begin to imagine. But a lot of my friends who have then me into the next stage have talked about struggling with body image, have talked about like, as you say, from the skin to weight fluctuations, to the hair to even like sex drive, all that kind of stuff, which feels like such a silly thing to even worry about in the wake of a brush with your own mortality.

Yes, there is the particular role that a princess plays, but even for women who have survived cancer, and that is a whole you know, physical experience I can't begin to imagine. But a lot of my friends who have then me into the next stage have talked about struggling with body image, have talked about like, as you say, from the skin to weight fluctuations, to the hair to even like sex drive, all that kind of stuff, which feels like such a silly thing to even worry about in the wake of a brush with your own mortality.

But you're not free of beauty standards even when you're facing, you know, a serious illness.

But you're not free of beauty standards even when you're facing, you know, a serious illness.

And this is just the classic. Yeah, it's a comment about Kate, and it's very specific to that scenario, but also to anyone who's had a really rough year and is thinking I'm not looking my best. They just got told you know exactly what everyone's thinking of you. Like, let's remember Kate's year. In January, she underwent major abdominal surgery. By March, it was that photoshopping controversy. Later that month, she announces the cancer diagnosis. She then shares an update in June, we know that she's undergoing preventative September, she releases the video that we all saw, and she's only just in the last few months returned to any royal duties. That is a shit year, Like that is a really shit year. And she turned up to this event over the weekend for Remembrance Day, which obviously you know was important to her and it's an important part of her role, and people tell her she looks like shit. Like that is just the cruelty of that and what it reveals about our culture is so disturbing.

And this is just the classic. Yeah, it's a comment about Kate, and it's very specific to that scenario, but also to anyone who's had a really rough year and is thinking I'm not looking my best. They just got told you know exactly what everyone's thinking of you. Like, let's remember Kate's year. In January, she underwent major abdominal surgery. By March, it was that photoshopping controversy. Later that month, she announces the cancer diagnosis. She then shares an update in June, we know that she's undergoing preventative September, she releases the video that we all saw, and she's only just in the last few months returned to any royal duties. That is a shit year, Like that is a really shit year. And she turned up to this event over the weekend for Remembrance Day, which obviously you know was important to her and it's an important part of her role, and people tell her she looks like shit. Like that is just the cruelty of that and what it reveals about our culture is so disturbing.

But it's not as though she's not aware of her role and of society's expectations. And it was so interesting seeing her at the trooping of the color and everything she did was so coded. She had a tight white dress on. I read a lot of think pieces around that afterwards, and some people were disappointed that she looked untouched by cancer and felt that it didn't, as you say, reflect their experience, and others were comforted because they thought, oh, after my cancer experience, I too could be back to my normal self. And it reminded me of those bodies bouncing back after babies, and that whole disgusting thing that used to be on magazine covers and is now on Instagram in many places where it's like we must raise all signs of pain, trouble, emotional frailty, physical change from women's faces and bodies. That's what our culture demands.

But it's not as though she's not aware of her role and of society's expectations. And it was so interesting seeing her at the trooping of the color and everything she did was so coded. She had a tight white dress on. I read a lot of think pieces around that afterwards, and some people were disappointed that she looked untouched by cancer and felt that it didn't, as you say, reflect their experience, and others were comforted because they thought, oh, after my cancer experience, I too could be back to my normal self. And it reminded me of those bodies bouncing back after babies, and that whole disgusting thing that used to be on magazine covers and is now on Instagram in many places where it's like we must raise all signs of pain, trouble, emotional frailty, physical change from women's faces and bodies. That's what our culture demands.

But I think it's interesting you bring up birth because Kate's always been quietly courageous on this front. I don't think Hillary Mantel ultimately gave her enough credit. Remember when after her oldest son was born, George, they came out of the hospital and she had still a visible bump, but it was physically impossible for her not to have had a physical change of shape, right, But she didn't have to come out and do that right then and there.

But I think it's interesting you bring up birth because Kate's always been quietly courageous on this front. I don't think Hillary Mantel ultimately gave her enough credit. Remember when after her oldest son was born, George, they came out of the hospital and she had still a visible bump, but it was physically impossible for her not to have had a physical change of shape, right, But she didn't have to come out and do that right then and there.

Yeah, I think she did. That was before Meghan had reset the standards. That was a you know, it was the son of the heir to the throne. I don't think she couldn't, but I know what you mean. She did choose a dress that showed I remember thinking at the time feeling so grateful and how pitiful it was because she looked perfect in every other way. You're right, there was this tiny trace that was of course gone by the time we next saw her. And again, not criticism of her, but it's this beauty standard that insists women, no matter what we're going through, no matter how old or young we are, you can even see it in Martha Stewart. She's eighty three, and yet she still has to be relevant. She has to pose for the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit is she.

Yeah, I think she did. That was before Meghan had reset the standards. That was a you know, it was the son of the heir to the throne. I don't think she couldn't, but I know what you mean. She did choose a dress that showed I remember thinking at the time feeling so grateful and how pitiful it was because she looked perfect in every other way. You're right, there was this tiny trace that was of course gone by the time we next saw her. And again, not criticism of her, but it's this beauty standard that insists women, no matter what we're going through, no matter how old or young we are, you can even see it in Martha Stewart. She's eighty three, and yet she still has to be relevant. She has to pose for the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit is she.

And the irony of this is that when you look at that photo, she has had her makeup professionally done, she's had her hair professionally done, she's had all the clothes are immaculate, and still it wasn't enough. It's not like she wasn't trying. She was, and still it was like there was still criticism.

And the irony of this is that when you look at that photo, she has had her makeup professionally done, she's had her hair professionally done, she's had all the clothes are immaculate, and still it wasn't enough. It's not like she wasn't trying. She was, and still it was like there was still criticism.

Before we move on, I want to just do a little quick bit of feedback as a gift.

Before we move on, I want to just do a little quick bit of feedback as a gift.

Oh, thanks for the feedback.

Oh, thanks for the feedback.

Great, I'd love your feedback.

Great, I'd love your feedback.

What a gift.

What a gift.

I always worry that you've got feedback for me that you're saying is a gift. Every time you bring this up, I bristle because I am scared.

I always worry that you've got feedback for me that you're saying is a gift. Every time you bring this up, I bristle because I am scared.

No, it's a new segment that I want to introduce where anyone can bring a little bit of feedback, because feedback, as we say here at MMA mea feedback is a gift.

No, it's a new segment that I want to introduce where anyone can bring a little bit of feedback, because feedback, as we say here at MMA mea feedback is a gift.

Yeah, you told me last week my shirt was terrible. That was a gift.

Yeah, you told me last week my shirt was terrible. That was a gift.

That was a gift. I said, burn your linen short sleeved shirt. That was my feedback. It was indeed a gift. My gift this week is to women writers on the internet and also people interviewing women or men. It's a mostly female thing. Please stop writing letters to your younger self.

That was a gift. I said, burn your linen short sleeved shirt. That was my feedback. It was indeed a gift. My gift this week is to women writers on the internet and also people interviewing women or men. It's a mostly female thing. Please stop writing letters to your younger self.

Why has this riled you? What has come up in your life? Because this is it. It's a thing. I'm sure that we have dozens of them on a website called Mamma Maya. Why today has this upset you?

Why has this riled you? What has come up in your life? Because this is it. It's a thing. I'm sure that we have dozens of them on a website called Mamma Maya. Why today has this upset you?

It's been growing on me. The feedback has been brewing for some time. I find it lazy, I find it boring. I find it self indulgent, which is ironic given how much I write about myself on the internet. It's not that I'm not interested in women's opinions or women's experiences or women's stories. Hell that's my business quite literally. But this whole idea of when you write a letter, it's like a letter to my twenty five year old self, like, just stop it. I don't know why it annoys me a merely does it annoy you?

It's been growing on me. The feedback has been brewing for some time. I find it lazy, I find it boring. I find it self indulgent, which is ironic given how much I write about myself on the internet. It's not that I'm not interested in women's opinions or women's experiences or women's stories. Hell that's my business quite literally. But this whole idea of when you write a letter, it's like a letter to my twenty five year old self, like, just stop it. I don't know why it annoys me a merely does it annoy you?

Well, you know who would never do this, Martha Stewart, because she had it all figured out from the age of twenty five.

Well, you know who would never do this, Martha Stewart, because she had it all figured out from the age of twenty five.

I just don't see the relevance I do. So I feel like it's like saying I had this dream last night and it was a bird, but it wasn't a bird, it was actually my English teacher from fourth grade, and like, I don't.

I just don't see the relevance I do. So I feel like it's like saying I had this dream last night and it was a bird, but it wasn't a bird, it was actually my English teacher from fourth grade, and like, I don't.

Care, I'm going to defend it. We're obsessed with youth and we're always pandering to the young people. And if I'm hearing my wisdom from Maya Friedman, who is in her fifties, then what I want to know is how well your life and your experience is are directly relevant to me. And if I'm twenty five, what I would like is for you to write a letter to me and tell me how to make better decisions. And I think that that's what it's about. It's also a very low touch form of journalism in that you don't have to do any research, you don't have to interview anyone except yourself, and it's a very stream of consciousness. It might just be your journal.

Care, I'm going to defend it. We're obsessed with youth and we're always pandering to the young people. And if I'm hearing my wisdom from Maya Friedman, who is in her fifties, then what I want to know is how well your life and your experience is are directly relevant to me. And if I'm twenty five, what I would like is for you to write a letter to me and tell me how to make better decisions. And I think that that's what it's about. It's also a very low touch form of journalism in that you don't have to do any research, you don't have to interview anyone except yourself, and it's a very stream of consciousness. It might just be your journal.

My letter would be very short. You're an idiot, but you know everyone's an idiot when they're younger, and then hopefully you become less of an idiot as you get older.

My letter would be very short. You're an idiot, but you know everyone's an idiot when they're younger, and then hopefully you become less of an idiot as you get older.

Finn me as feedback on feedback to your younger self, stop doing.

Finn me as feedback on feedback to your younger self, stop doing.

It after the break. Dating is a job, not a hobby. There is a new way to find love and it is not for the fainthearted.

It after the break. Dating is a job, not a hobby. There is a new way to find love and it is not for the fainthearted.

Loud design to be deleted. That's the tagline of one of the most popular dating apps, which also promises to be the dating app for people who want to get off the dating apps. But a new investigation by the UK publication The Observer has found that dating apps are becoming more like gambling products. They're more like Poky's. They encourage you to buy more and more extras, they get you into game like features, and then they lock users into what experts have called a perpetual pay to play loop. So one woman has the answer to this loop, and it starts with accepting that dating is not a game, but rather a very serious business. So get out your pen and paper take some notes. Her name is Jenny Young. She is a fifty six year old professor of English in the US, and last year she pioneered something called the burned Haystack method. So she was back on the dating market in midlife. She watched her daughter unsuccessfully swiping through apps. She realized she did not have the energy to do the same thing. She googled how to find a needle in a haystack, and she realized you have to burn the haystack to find the needle. You burn the haystack and the needle is left on the ground because metal doesn't burn. Okay, so it's a needle, a guy, the girl. It's your romantic partner. The needle is your love of your life. The basic principle as it applies to dating, and by the way, this assumes you want a long term monogamous relationship, which not everyone does. Caveat there is to filter out time wasters and red flags as soon as possible. You need to hard yes or hard no anyone who comes into your own box on the dating app as soon as possible. It's like Marie Kondo for dating. And then you block anyone who's a no. Rather than let them keep circulating around or do the fade out or the slow burn. Forget it, you just got to block them. So here's some examples. You might match with someone who lives two hours away who might be interested in a long term relationship. You block them. The match doesn't want to meet in public, they just want to meet it his or her apartment. You block them, and the result is that the apps are suddenly working for us instead of driving us mad. Is blocking different to just not swipe? I haven't been on the apps? How does it work? So part of what the apps are doing by keeping you there is that no one ever actually leaves your universe. You might stop sort of dming with someone, but they might then show up again. And it's very frustrating to have to keep interacting with these people who you've decided you're not interested in.