You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hey.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on Hey.

Out louders, it's me Ah and I'm popping into your ears for you Sunday special. You've probably heard us chat about Mama MEA's new career podcast Bierz. Well, today we've got an episode with an absolute legend, and it's me. It is me. I'm not an absolute legend, but I do get quite personal in this episode because I open up about the time in my career where I was made redundant, and Michelle Battersbee, who's one of the hosts of BIZ, asks me some really interesting questions. I haven't thought about it for a long time, but we go behind the scenes of my very public career blow up that literally was the thing that led me to start Mamma Mia. I know a lot of people have been made redundant and it can be something that's really brutal. I have been there, but I promise you that sometimes the worst professional moments lead to the best things in your life, and that's exactly what happened to me. So our brilliant career coach, so First, she used to work at Google, and she's just like a guru. She jumps in with practical advice for anyone who's been made redundant, and also about rebuilding after setbacks and so many things that I wish I'd known back then. So, whether you're going through this right now, or you know someone who is, or you just want to be prepared, this one's worth a listen.

Out louders, it's me Ah and I'm popping into your ears for you Sunday special. You've probably heard us chat about Mama MEA's new career podcast Bierz. Well, today we've got an episode with an absolute legend, and it's me. It is me. I'm not an absolute legend, but I do get quite personal in this episode because I open up about the time in my career where I was made redundant, and Michelle Battersbee, who's one of the hosts of BIZ, asks me some really interesting questions. I haven't thought about it for a long time, but we go behind the scenes of my very public career blow up that literally was the thing that led me to start Mamma Mia. I know a lot of people have been made redundant and it can be something that's really brutal. I have been there, but I promise you that sometimes the worst professional moments lead to the best things in your life, and that's exactly what happened to me. So our brilliant career coach, so First, she used to work at Google, and she's just like a guru. She jumps in with practical advice for anyone who's been made redundant, and also about rebuilding after setbacks and so many things that I wish I'd known back then. So, whether you're going through this right now, or you know someone who is, or you just want to be prepared, this one's worth a listen.

Hello, and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted. I'm Mvenim and today we're going to discuss something that happens to so many of us across our careers, and that's redundancy. And I feel like our attitudes towards being made redundant is changing, but the thought of it still makes me extremely nervous. So first things first, redundancy happens when your role is no longer needed due to business changes, restructuring, or closure. It's different from being fired, and if you've been in a company for over twelve months as a full time or part time employee, you're usually entitled to a payout of some sort. Today we are joined by someone who turned their redundancy into an incredible success story. Mom and MIA's founder and my boss, Miir Friedman. She went from a very public redundancy to building Australia's largest women's media company Mia. Along with our career coaches Michelle, Batisby and Sophurst, will help you navigate the emotional rollercoaster that is redundancy. And trust me, you'll want to hear their advice on how to take this career curveball and turn it into your next big opportunity. You'll see that however you feel at the time, it's not all bad and it can even be a good chance to reset and find something better, just like a breakup.

Hello, and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted. I'm Mvenim and today we're going to discuss something that happens to so many of us across our careers, and that's redundancy. And I feel like our attitudes towards being made redundant is changing, but the thought of it still makes me extremely nervous. So first things first, redundancy happens when your role is no longer needed due to business changes, restructuring, or closure. It's different from being fired, and if you've been in a company for over twelve months as a full time or part time employee, you're usually entitled to a payout of some sort. Today we are joined by someone who turned their redundancy into an incredible success story. Mom and MIA's founder and my boss, Miir Friedman. She went from a very public redundancy to building Australia's largest women's media company Mia. Along with our career coaches Michelle, Batisby and Sophurst, will help you navigate the emotional rollercoaster that is redundancy. And trust me, you'll want to hear their advice on how to take this career curveball and turn it into your next big opportunity. You'll see that however you feel at the time, it's not all bad and it can even be a good chance to reset and find something better, just like a breakup.

So before we jump into this episode, I want people to know that from my perspective as an employer, a redundancy is not a bad thing. It is an opportunity to reset and I think it is what you make of it. But I don't want this to come across like toxic positivity. It's just that factually, as an employer, you know that things change. Businesses pivot, technologies advance, and the thing with being made redundant is think of it like your role has been made redundant, not you have been made redundant. There is a distinction there. To prepare for this episode, I went out on my Instagram and I had over two thousand people respond and forty percent of them said that they had been made redundant. And I then asked a follow up question, how did it feel? And it was a really mixed bag. It ranged from it was a sleigh it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I was so well looked after. It led to way better things too. I felt ashamed. It was the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me. I felt worthless and embarrassed. So let's speak to someone who actually has been through it. Mia Friedman. Maya is the founder and creative director of Mama Mia, the largest women's podcast network in the world. But before that, Maya was the youngest editor of Cosmo and worked on the likes of Dolly, which is iconic, my first ever magazine subscription, and she had a killer career for over fifteen years. She then transitioned to Channel nine, where she was made redundant after twelve months. Miya, welcome hello from the outside looking in, I feel like you've just come off the highest high of your career and then you find yourself in this role where you're made redundant after twelve months.

So before we jump into this episode, I want people to know that from my perspective as an employer, a redundancy is not a bad thing. It is an opportunity to reset and I think it is what you make of it. But I don't want this to come across like toxic positivity. It's just that factually, as an employer, you know that things change. Businesses pivot, technologies advance, and the thing with being made redundant is think of it like your role has been made redundant, not you have been made redundant. There is a distinction there. To prepare for this episode, I went out on my Instagram and I had over two thousand people respond and forty percent of them said that they had been made redundant. And I then asked a follow up question, how did it feel? And it was a really mixed bag. It ranged from it was a sleigh it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I was so well looked after. It led to way better things too. I felt ashamed. It was the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me. I felt worthless and embarrassed. So let's speak to someone who actually has been through it. Mia Friedman. Maya is the founder and creative director of Mama Mia, the largest women's podcast network in the world. But before that, Maya was the youngest editor of Cosmo and worked on the likes of Dolly, which is iconic, my first ever magazine subscription, and she had a killer career for over fifteen years. She then transitioned to Channel nine, where she was made redundant after twelve months. Miya, welcome hello from the outside looking in, I feel like you've just come off the highest high of your career and then you find yourself in this role where you're made redundant after twelve months.

What was that like?

What was that like?

What was your mindset like at that time?

What was your mindset like at that time?

I was just listening to you describe all the different ways that people feel after redundancy what they told you, and I think I felt all of those ways at once, because my situation was slightly different in that I had to fight to get a redundancy. The job that I went to do to be an executive in TV wasn't really a job, and the person who hired me left the company, and I'd had it written in my contract that I was there to report to him. So the job that I was doing had become so awful and the situation was so unpleasant the company really wanted me to just quit. And if I'd have just quit, I would have walked away with nothing. But because it was actually the TV company I was working for was owned by the same magazine company that I had worked for, I had like fifteen or sixteen years of service. So even though I'd been at this one job for not long, I did what a lot of women want to do, which is just get away from a difficult situation. And that would have cost me financially massively. And it was my husband who said, no, you're a redundant, like the thing that you came to do, you can't do anymore. Fight for redundancy. So I fought, and it was really unpleasant, but I finally secured it, which meant that I had like almost a year's worth of salary. And what that did was, even though it was absolutely humiliating and it seemed to everyone like I'd been fired, and I may as well have been fired because my time at this company had been a disaster and I'd achieved nothing. I had that amount of money that I could then use to do my next thing. It brought me time. What my redundancy brought me is time, and for some people that might just be a month. For me, it was about a year. And it enabled me to start a blog and not earn anything for a year, which is a huge amount of time, because I certainly I didn't earn anything from AMEA for more than a year. The humiliation and the shame is very, very real. And I think that the most important question to ask yourself is was I made redundant because my skill set isn't applicable anymore? Or was I made redundant because the company changed shape and they had to restructure and what you do next depends on your answer to those two questions, because if it's your skill set, then you have to pivot. You have to really think, Okay, I loved being an illustrator, but now it's all gone to graphic design, and the skill that I had, the skill that I've always had, is no longer applicable because of technology, because of whatever. I need to find a different skill set and a different way to get employed. If it's just that the company change shape and you have valuable skills that could just apply somewhere else, that's a different conversation, and that's a better situation to me. The way that I always think about it is from both an employer point of view and how I thought about it when I was made redundant is they've freed my future.

I was just listening to you describe all the different ways that people feel after redundancy what they told you, and I think I felt all of those ways at once, because my situation was slightly different in that I had to fight to get a redundancy. The job that I went to do to be an executive in TV wasn't really a job, and the person who hired me left the company, and I'd had it written in my contract that I was there to report to him. So the job that I was doing had become so awful and the situation was so unpleasant the company really wanted me to just quit. And if I'd have just quit, I would have walked away with nothing. But because it was actually the TV company I was working for was owned by the same magazine company that I had worked for, I had like fifteen or sixteen years of service. So even though I'd been at this one job for not long, I did what a lot of women want to do, which is just get away from a difficult situation. And that would have cost me financially massively. And it was my husband who said, no, you're a redundant, like the thing that you came to do, you can't do anymore. Fight for redundancy. So I fought, and it was really unpleasant, but I finally secured it, which meant that I had like almost a year's worth of salary. And what that did was, even though it was absolutely humiliating and it seemed to everyone like I'd been fired, and I may as well have been fired because my time at this company had been a disaster and I'd achieved nothing. I had that amount of money that I could then use to do my next thing. It brought me time. What my redundancy brought me is time, and for some people that might just be a month. For me, it was about a year. And it enabled me to start a blog and not earn anything for a year, which is a huge amount of time, because I certainly I didn't earn anything from AMEA for more than a year. The humiliation and the shame is very, very real. And I think that the most important question to ask yourself is was I made redundant because my skill set isn't applicable anymore? Or was I made redundant because the company changed shape and they had to restructure and what you do next depends on your answer to those two questions, because if it's your skill set, then you have to pivot. You have to really think, Okay, I loved being an illustrator, but now it's all gone to graphic design, and the skill that I had, the skill that I've always had, is no longer applicable because of technology, because of whatever. I need to find a different skill set and a different way to get employed. If it's just that the company change shape and you have valuable skills that could just apply somewhere else, that's a different conversation, and that's a better situation to me. The way that I always think about it is from both an employer point of view and how I thought about it when I was made redundant is they've freed my future.

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah, Like my future has been freed. Even if you lose your job, even if you are sacked, you freed someone's future. It's like ending a relationship. Yeah, No one wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be with them anymore. Nobody wants to be in a job that they can't do, like not really. So ultimately, if you think about it Okay, my future has been freed.

Yeah, Like my future has been freed. Even if you lose your job, even if you are sacked, you freed someone's future. It's like ending a relationship. Yeah, No one wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be with them anymore. Nobody wants to be in a job that they can't do, like not really. So ultimately, if you think about it Okay, my future has been freed.

What next?

What next?

Yeah?

Yeah?

I think this is so important for women, the advocating for yourself and knowing when you are owed something. And I think many listeners might not know where to begin with those conversations like advocating for yourself and saying, hang on, my roles are no longer required. I'm owed a redundancy. Like where did you start with those conversations? Did you get a lawyer?

I think this is so important for women, the advocating for yourself and knowing when you are owed something. And I think many listeners might not know where to begin with those conversations like advocating for yourself and saying, hang on, my roles are no longer required. I'm owed a redundancy. Like where did you start with those conversations? Did you get a lawyer?

I didn't have a lawyer. In the beginning, I could tell that they just wanted me a quit because of course it's just easier, right, It's a problem they wouldn't have to deal with. And then they tried to offer me jobs that were really inappropriate, like they were like deploying you. Yeah exactly, like and they have to do that legally. But also I wasn't qualified to do those jobs, Like they're like, maybe you could just be head of hair and makeup and wardrobe what because I had a vagina, so you know.

I didn't have a lawyer. In the beginning, I could tell that they just wanted me a quit because of course it's just easier, right, It's a problem they wouldn't have to deal with. And then they tried to offer me jobs that were really inappropriate, like they were like deploying you. Yeah exactly, like and they have to do that legally. But also I wasn't qualified to do those jobs, Like they're like, maybe you could just be head of hair and makeup and wardrobe what because I had a vagina, so you know.

How can they offered you?

How can they offered you?

Yeah, yeah exactly, and so not if there's anything wrong with that, But that's not that's not what I came for. It's not my skill set, it's not my background. It was hard. It was really really hard because I just wanted to avoid confrontation. I just wanted to go oh no, no, no, I just quit. I'll just you know, I can't. I don't want to go back. And I had a baby at the time, a newborn and a seven year old, and I just was like, I hate it here. Everyone hates me. I'm failing. I just wanted to get away immediately. And the actual negotiating the redundancy and fighting for what I was owed made for an uncomfortable few weeks, but my god, it was worth it because of what it brought me on the other side.

Yeah, yeah exactly, and so not if there's anything wrong with that, But that's not that's not what I came for. It's not my skill set, it's not my background. It was hard. It was really really hard because I just wanted to avoid confrontation. I just wanted to go oh no, no, no, I just quit. I'll just you know, I can't. I don't want to go back. And I had a baby at the time, a newborn and a seven year old, and I just was like, I hate it here. Everyone hates me. I'm failing. I just wanted to get away immediately. And the actual negotiating the redundancy and fighting for what I was owed made for an uncomfortable few weeks, but my god, it was worth it because of what it brought me on the other side.

Yeah. I also think for those listening and like where both employers, I find most employers actually do want to do good in the end for their employees. Like most of the time, I actually will give you what you're asking for because they also want it to go.

Yeah. I also think for those listening and like where both employers, I find most employers actually do want to do good in the end for their employees. Like most of the time, I actually will give you what you're asking for because they also want it to go.

Away, or they'll try because in almost every case, certainly every case I've experienced as an employer, when we've had to make people redundant, it's never a about the people, like it literally is never about the people. It's about needing to change the shape of the business or skill sets that other people have that replace this skill set and it's about budgets, Like, it really comes down to budgets. And businesses are called businesses for a reason. You can't just afford to keep people on because you like them, unfortunately, so it honestly isn't personal. So if you can just try to keep your emotions in check as much as possible and be really calm, and you want to leave in the best way possible. You know, I've been so impressed with people I know who have been made redundant in the last year or so, and the way that they've left their businesses has been so impressive and has really made such a difference to their future employment prospects.

Away, or they'll try because in almost every case, certainly every case I've experienced as an employer, when we've had to make people redundant, it's never a about the people, like it literally is never about the people. It's about needing to change the shape of the business or skill sets that other people have that replace this skill set and it's about budgets, Like, it really comes down to budgets. And businesses are called businesses for a reason. You can't just afford to keep people on because you like them, unfortunately, so it honestly isn't personal. So if you can just try to keep your emotions in check as much as possible and be really calm, and you want to leave in the best way possible. You know, I've been so impressed with people I know who have been made redundant in the last year or so, and the way that they've left their businesses has been so impressive and has really made such a difference to their future employment prospects.

Yeah, you negotiate into a company with grace and you put your best foot forward. And I think it's really important to remember to I've heard it be called like elegantly exit like, Yes, such a good thing to remember. Yeah, and sometimes you do just have to take the high road. Yeah, and just swallow your pride you do. On the not taking it personally side of things. I think I saw a headline that said something like shows over for meya.

Yeah, you negotiate into a company with grace and you put your best foot forward. And I think it's really important to remember to I've heard it be called like elegantly exit like, Yes, such a good thing to remember. Yeah, and sometimes you do just have to take the high road. Yeah, and just swallow your pride you do. On the not taking it personally side of things. I think I saw a headline that said something like shows over for meya.

Yes, I arranged to leave. I'd been part of launching this new daytime show at Channel nine, and when I left, they didn't tell me they were going to do this, and I completely understand why they did. They axed the show on that day, so it very much seemed like I had been sacked, and it looked very bad, and I get I completely understand why they did that, and it was so funny. I remember going home and my phone was blowing up and I just sat on my bed with my laptop and my phone next to me, and the big splash on all the news websites was because there's a lot of publicity around Channel nine at that time and about women leaving Channel nine and things, and it was just a those kind of headline shows over for me, a big pictures of me back when it was a print newspaper, because this was almost twenty years ago, you know, it was page three. It was like this big picture of me, and I remember, as humiliating as it was, I remember thinking to myself, Oh, well, at least everybody will know that I'm available for employment, so the phone will ring. And yet the phone never rang.

Yes, I arranged to leave. I'd been part of launching this new daytime show at Channel nine, and when I left, they didn't tell me they were going to do this, and I completely understand why they did. They axed the show on that day, so it very much seemed like I had been sacked, and it looked very bad, and I get I completely understand why they did that, and it was so funny. I remember going home and my phone was blowing up and I just sat on my bed with my laptop and my phone next to me, and the big splash on all the news websites was because there's a lot of publicity around Channel nine at that time and about women leaving Channel nine and things, and it was just a those kind of headline shows over for me, a big pictures of me back when it was a print newspaper, because this was almost twenty years ago, you know, it was page three. It was like this big picture of me, and I remember, as humiliating as it was, I remember thinking to myself, Oh, well, at least everybody will know that I'm available for employment, so the phone will ring. And yet the phone never rang.

Why do you think that is?

Why do you think that is?

To be honest, my reputation had been damaged so much by the time I'd been at Channel nine for a variety of reasons. It was the culture there at that time was really bad. There'd been awful like leaks, and it was just a very very bad culture. And my reputation had really been trashed. And I'd had such a great reputation from the fifteen years prior when I'd worked in magazines. I worked really hard and I'd got to the top of my field, and it was like literally wiped out in a matter of months. And so the phone never rang, and I was so shocked by that. I was so her and shocked, and I lost all my confidence. But I must have known. I must have suspected because when I was planning my redundancy in that last when I was thinking about leaving and telling them I wanted a redundancy. And then in the few days that I left, on the day that my redundancy was announced, I launched a pressed publish on Mamma Mea for my first post, because I knew that there'd be a lot of media interest, and I was like, well, best I capitalize on that, because I'll have twenty four hours in the news cycle. Yeap. This was pre social media, of course, and I want to make sure I people know where I am and they know where to find me. So I did that. My first post was about why I had left. But I was very careful and have been careful to this day to not trash anyone individually, to go with grace, as you just said, elegantly exit. And even though I was personally devastated, bitter, angry, resentful, all of those things, I held it in check. And that was hard, but I had something to do, so even though I wasn't offered anything, I thought, I'll do this, I'll launched this blog and I'll start it while I wait, while I decide what's going to happen next. And I feel job offers, and those job offers never came, which is actually a really lucky thing because it meant that I had to just keep going.

To be honest, my reputation had been damaged so much by the time I'd been at Channel nine for a variety of reasons. It was the culture there at that time was really bad. There'd been awful like leaks, and it was just a very very bad culture. And my reputation had really been trashed. And I'd had such a great reputation from the fifteen years prior when I'd worked in magazines. I worked really hard and I'd got to the top of my field, and it was like literally wiped out in a matter of months. And so the phone never rang, and I was so shocked by that. I was so her and shocked, and I lost all my confidence. But I must have known. I must have suspected because when I was planning my redundancy in that last when I was thinking about leaving and telling them I wanted a redundancy. And then in the few days that I left, on the day that my redundancy was announced, I launched a pressed publish on Mamma Mea for my first post, because I knew that there'd be a lot of media interest, and I was like, well, best I capitalize on that, because I'll have twenty four hours in the news cycle. Yeap. This was pre social media, of course, and I want to make sure I people know where I am and they know where to find me. So I did that. My first post was about why I had left. But I was very careful and have been careful to this day to not trash anyone individually, to go with grace, as you just said, elegantly exit. And even though I was personally devastated, bitter, angry, resentful, all of those things, I held it in check. And that was hard, but I had something to do, so even though I wasn't offered anything, I thought, I'll do this, I'll launched this blog and I'll start it while I wait, while I decide what's going to happen next. And I feel job offers, and those job offers never came, which is actually a really lucky thing because it meant that I had to just keep going.

I think this is so interesting. I feel like you were taken to one of the scariest places where it's redundancy and then reputational damage and kind of being dragged publicly in a way that is out of your control and you're not going to retaliate. You just have to suck it up. Yeah, I do think that would be one of the scariest places to be taken to how do you rebuild your confidence?

I think this is so interesting. I feel like you were taken to one of the scariest places where it's redundancy and then reputational damage and kind of being dragged publicly in a way that is out of your control and you're not going to retaliate. You just have to suck it up. Yeah, I do think that would be one of the scariest places to be taken to how do you rebuild your confidence?

Took a really long time. There's no easy way to say it. It wasn't a magic pill, you know, after the adrenaline of all of that wears off. And now, I guess everybody, and I've read a lot of them now makes those announcements on LinkedIn and the phrasing of what you say is very important. And there's so As you said, forty percent of the people who replied to you out of two thousand had been made redundant. It's a really really common thing. And it's not like people go, oh, she's shit, she's got a bad smell about her because she's made redundant. My reputation was destroyed not because of my redundancy, but what had happened during the time I was there, and the stories that had been leaked about me to the press that were not true, and that sort of reputational smearing that happened while I was there, and also the fact that the show I launched sort of didn't work and wasn't very good, and I've got to completely own that, and also the fact that I should never have gone to this job because it wasn't a real job. It was an idea, but it wasn't a real job. But I was so keen to get out. And this actually speaks to a mistake not to make after a redundancy, because when I left magazines, it was when I had my second child, and I knew I was done with magazines, but I didn't know what I wanted to do next. And I learned the hard way, never make a big career decision. For me, it's in the twelve months after having a baby. For other people, it might be less.

Took a really long time. There's no easy way to say it. It wasn't a magic pill, you know, after the adrenaline of all of that wears off. And now, I guess everybody, and I've read a lot of them now makes those announcements on LinkedIn and the phrasing of what you say is very important. And there's so As you said, forty percent of the people who replied to you out of two thousand had been made redundant. It's a really really common thing. And it's not like people go, oh, she's shit, she's got a bad smell about her because she's made redundant. My reputation was destroyed not because of my redundancy, but what had happened during the time I was there, and the stories that had been leaked about me to the press that were not true, and that sort of reputational smearing that happened while I was there, and also the fact that the show I launched sort of didn't work and wasn't very good, and I've got to completely own that, and also the fact that I should never have gone to this job because it wasn't a real job. It was an idea, but it wasn't a real job. But I was so keen to get out. And this actually speaks to a mistake not to make after a redundancy, because when I left magazines, it was when I had my second child, and I knew I was done with magazines, but I didn't know what I wanted to do next. And I learned the hard way, never make a big career decision. For me, it's in the twelve months after having a baby. For other people, it might be less.

For me.

For me.

Usually coincides with the amount of time that I'm breastfeeding. I didn't breastfeed her for a year because I had a lot of problems with that. But in that first few months, when I was sleep deprived, hormonal, was having a really hard time, I made the decision. I knew I wanted to leave magazines, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. This job was offered to me, and I went sure, and I jumped at it, and it was really stupid because I didn't think carefully enough and it wasn't enough of a job, so I didn't do my due diligence. I didn't really prosecute that decision. Well, so back to never make an emotional decision. That's a really important thing to keep in mind after a redundancy, because you know, it's almost like heartbreak. The first person who comes along and looks at you, You're like, oh, you do like me, okay, And they might be a dickhead, yeah, but you're just so desperate for some validation that you want to be very careful about the thing you do next.

Usually coincides with the amount of time that I'm breastfeeding. I didn't breastfeed her for a year because I had a lot of problems with that. But in that first few months, when I was sleep deprived, hormonal, was having a really hard time, I made the decision. I knew I wanted to leave magazines, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. This job was offered to me, and I went sure, and I jumped at it, and it was really stupid because I didn't think carefully enough and it wasn't enough of a job, so I didn't do my due diligence. I didn't really prosecute that decision. Well, so back to never make an emotional decision. That's a really important thing to keep in mind after a redundancy, because you know, it's almost like heartbreak. The first person who comes along and looks at you, You're like, oh, you do like me, okay, And they might be a dickhead, yeah, but you're just so desperate for some validation that you want to be very careful about the thing you do next.

That's so fascinating because I actually listened to a podcast and I think it was recommended by Jesse Stevens, and it was about intuition and it said at the time to never trust your intuition. And it's when you're going through a huge emotional change. It actually labels like a breakup, but motherhood would totally be one too, Like your intuition is completely off.

That's so fascinating because I actually listened to a podcast and I think it was recommended by Jesse Stevens, and it was about intuition and it said at the time to never trust your intuition. And it's when you're going through a huge emotional change. It actually labels like a breakup, but motherhood would totally be one too, Like your intuition is completely off.

Yeah, during moments like that's exactly right for me. I was just not thinking clearly and it took me a long time to recover from it, and it took me a long time to build my confidence back up and build my reputation. It took me a really really long time. But I don't think that's the case after redundancy. I was actually funny enough speaking to someone yesterday who'd just been made redundant in quite a high profile way, but it was very clear that it was nothing to do with her. It was just a restructure of the company, and she was actually feeling great about it. You know, I know a lot of people who've actually been through it lately, and you see the twin sides of the hurt and the Of course it's humiliating and you feel ashamed, but you get over that and the decision you make next is one that can change everything.

Yeah, during moments like that's exactly right for me. I was just not thinking clearly and it took me a long time to recover from it, and it took me a long time to build my confidence back up and build my reputation. It took me a really really long time. But I don't think that's the case after redundancy. I was actually funny enough speaking to someone yesterday who'd just been made redundant in quite a high profile way, but it was very clear that it was nothing to do with her. It was just a restructure of the company, and she was actually feeling great about it. You know, I know a lot of people who've actually been through it lately, and you see the twin sides of the hurt and the Of course it's humiliating and you feel ashamed, but you get over that and the decision you make next is one that can change everything.

Yeah, I think internally it hurts more externally, like the optics really aren't aren't bad, and no one's thinking, no, you're shit at your job.

Yeah, I think internally it hurts more externally, like the optics really aren't aren't bad, and no one's thinking, no, you're shit at your job.

No.

No.

It's like as an employer also, I'll often look at CVS and there'll be someone who's been somewhere for a year, and I probably stayed at this job. I probably should have left much earlier, but I was so worried about how it would look a lot of people have that experience of just going somewhere for a year. The question is the narrative you tell I've had it, Yeah, exactly, we've had it. And the question is how anything can be explained with the right narrative. The thing not to do is to say anything negative, whether you were made redundant, whether you lost your job, whether you quit because the place was a night there. The point is the narrative that you tell to your next prospective employer. Yeah. I completely agree, And I think what would you say? What did you when people were like, oh, you're only there for a little bit of time. And also people love a bit of gossip. Yeah, and to be bad if you're interviewing someone and you're like, oh, what happened, and it's like the minute they start bad mouthing, even though partly you do want to know the goss, the minute they start bad mouthing their former employer, for me, that's disqualifying.

It's like as an employer also, I'll often look at CVS and there'll be someone who's been somewhere for a year, and I probably stayed at this job. I probably should have left much earlier, but I was so worried about how it would look a lot of people have that experience of just going somewhere for a year. The question is the narrative you tell I've had it, Yeah, exactly, we've had it. And the question is how anything can be explained with the right narrative. The thing not to do is to say anything negative, whether you were made redundant, whether you lost your job, whether you quit because the place was a night there. The point is the narrative that you tell to your next prospective employer. Yeah. I completely agree, And I think what would you say? What did you when people were like, oh, you're only there for a little bit of time. And also people love a bit of gossip. Yeah, and to be bad if you're interviewing someone and you're like, oh, what happened, and it's like the minute they start bad mouthing, even though partly you do want to know the goss, the minute they start bad mouthing their former employer, for me, that's disqualifying.

One hundred percent. My narrative has always been went there to build X skill set, achieved, that learned a lot, was always gearing up to do this next thing.

One hundred percent. My narrative has always been went there to build X skill set, achieved, that learned a lot, was always gearing up to do this next thing.

And even if you say it wasn't for me for these reasons, or you say I was made redundant for these reasons, you just got to own it.

And even if you say it wasn't for me for these reasons, or you say I was made redundant for these reasons, you just got to own it.

I think, I agree. I think the narrative, it's all about the narrative. You're an employer, how do you view redundancies? Do you see them as a red flag.

I think, I agree. I think the narrative, it's all about the narrative. You're an employer, how do you view redundancies? Do you see them as a red flag.

I see redundancies as an opportunity. So there's been a huge number of redundancies in media lately, and the first thing we do is see who's been made redundant and often have a conversation with them, see if the skill set of that person and the experience of that person could fit into our company. Because every business is a different shape, so all the reasons that someone's been made redundant from one place probably doesn't apply to you. So anyone who's been made redundant my years always pick up and I'm like, oh, I'm literally oh, how could we find a way to fit them in? And you've got to be careful as an employee because you don't want to shoehorn someone in just because they're great on paper, or you've got to make sure that you've got the right hole for whatever shape they are. But it certainly doesn't put me off such.

I see redundancies as an opportunity. So there's been a huge number of redundancies in media lately, and the first thing we do is see who's been made redundant and often have a conversation with them, see if the skill set of that person and the experience of that person could fit into our company. Because every business is a different shape, so all the reasons that someone's been made redundant from one place probably doesn't apply to you. So anyone who's been made redundant my years always pick up and I'm like, oh, I'm literally oh, how could we find a way to fit them in? And you've got to be careful as an employee because you don't want to shoehorn someone in just because they're great on paper, or you've got to make sure that you've got the right hole for whatever shape they are. But it certainly doesn't put me off such.

A good perspective. It's an opportunity for the individual, and it's an opportunity for business owners. Like Yeah, in the tech world, we will get sent lists of all these amazing engineers talent that have been laid off at other tech companies and we look through it like, fuck, yeah, can we here?

A good perspective. It's an opportunity for the individual, and it's an opportunity for business owners. Like Yeah, in the tech world, we will get sent lists of all these amazing engineers talent that have been laid off at other tech companies and we look through it like, fuck, yeah, can we here?

Can we? Absolutely? And so that's why you don't have to have your tail between your legs. You just have to own it. And that doesn't mean you can't say to a future employee, yeah, I was really disappointed. I loved it there, or I understand why it happened. I mean, that's if you can ever say I completely understand. Was I disappointed? Sure, but it makes sense.

Can we? Absolutely? And so that's why you don't have to have your tail between your legs. You just have to own it. And that doesn't mean you can't say to a future employee, yeah, I was really disappointed. I loved it there, or I understand why it happened. I mean, that's if you can ever say I completely understand. Was I disappointed? Sure, but it makes sense.

Yeah, love that. Okay, we'll have to do a follow up episode on how to stay in a job for twelve months when you ate it?

Yeah, love that. Okay, we'll have to do a follow up episode on how to stay in a job for twelve months when you ate it?

Oh? Yeah, man? And should I have just pulled the pin on that first day when I went and I knew it wasn't right. When I'd been trying to work out with my then about to be boss, we'd been trying to land on a title and we just couldn't land on one. And that's a red flag, which I hadn't realized because I had baby brain at the time, and also because I hadn't really moved companies before, I'd worked in one for one employer until then. But on that first day, I went and introduced myself to someone in the next office next to me, and they're like, oh, what do you do? And I said, I'm the creative services director and they went, that's my title.

Oh? Yeah, man? And should I have just pulled the pin on that first day when I went and I knew it wasn't right. When I'd been trying to work out with my then about to be boss, we'd been trying to land on a title and we just couldn't land on one. And that's a red flag, which I hadn't realized because I had baby brain at the time, and also because I hadn't really moved companies before, I'd worked in one for one employer until then. But on that first day, I went and introduced myself to someone in the next office next to me, and they're like, oh, what do you do? And I said, I'm the creative services director and they went, that's my title.

Oh my god.

Oh my god.

And I should have known. Yeah that day.

And I should have known. Yeah that day.

Okay, yeah, projecked red flags and employers as well.

Okay, yeah, projecked red flags and employers as well.

You know what's funny, Michelle, I thought this topic might only be really to like a certain segment of our listeners, But that is some of the most wise career advice that is so broadly applicable to anyone. How good is hearing another woman's story to give you perspective on your own situation, Like I'm just thinking about hearing me I talk about her reputation and how literally her redundancy was splashed over these insane headlines. I the other day was worried about my reputation because I accidentally posted the same LinkedIn post twice and I was like, people are going to think I'm a maurn And She's like, they're with headlines a bit of perspective, not to make me feel bad, but in terms of lessons that I'm going to commit to my long term memory and just think about them all the time. They're so relevant to everyone in their career. One it's not personal, it's situational. I actually say that to myself in so many cases at work. So I think that part where you guys were talking about when you get made redundant, it's either the skills or the company structure that needs to change.

You know what's funny, Michelle, I thought this topic might only be really to like a certain segment of our listeners, But that is some of the most wise career advice that is so broadly applicable to anyone. How good is hearing another woman's story to give you perspective on your own situation, Like I'm just thinking about hearing me I talk about her reputation and how literally her redundancy was splashed over these insane headlines. I the other day was worried about my reputation because I accidentally posted the same LinkedIn post twice and I was like, people are going to think I'm a maurn And She's like, they're with headlines a bit of perspective, not to make me feel bad, but in terms of lessons that I'm going to commit to my long term memory and just think about them all the time. They're so relevant to everyone in their career. One it's not personal, it's situational. I actually say that to myself in so many cases at work. So I think that part where you guys were talking about when you get made redundant, it's either the skills or the company structure that needs to change.

So this idea that.

So this idea that.

It's not personal, it's actually situational, I think relieve so much of the kind of emotional pressure that we put on ourselves. And I think that's just broadly applicable to so many things at work. I actually read the other day that in terms of your skills in your job, one third of people's roles are going to be affected by AI. So I think this idea of like, you probably are going to need to change your skills, company structures probably are going to change, and I think just being able to recognize that it's nothing wrong with you, it's just that we have to adapt and change. I thought that was very cool.

It's not personal, it's actually situational, I think relieve so much of the kind of emotional pressure that we put on ourselves. And I think that's just broadly applicable to so many things at work. I actually read the other day that in terms of your skills in your job, one third of people's roles are going to be affected by AI. So I think this idea of like, you probably are going to need to change your skills, company structures probably are going to change, and I think just being able to recognize that it's nothing wrong with you, it's just that we have to adapt and change. I thought that was very cool.

Also your mindset around this, so just making the distinction that it's not personal, it's the situation, because we probably all are going to be faced with this relatively soon.

Also your mindset around this, so just making the distinction that it's not personal, it's the situation, because we probably all are going to be faced with this relatively soon.

I loved the part around keep your emotions in check and have grace that elegant exit. It's just you know, again like applying that to so many situations at work. I say to myself all the time, like, just try to have grace in this situation. How do you want to show up? And just don't trash people, like in general, don't go around trashing people at work. The second point was around when Mia said, you know, it was a hard conversation, but that lasted for about two weeks, and then on the other side of it, it was so much goodness. I think that is something you can apply to so many situations at work. It's this acute short term pain that we feel and then the long term benefit is so worth it. So just like be willing to have that difficult conversation at the time and then just know that there's something really good on the other side.

I loved the part around keep your emotions in check and have grace that elegant exit. It's just you know, again like applying that to so many situations at work. I say to myself all the time, like, just try to have grace in this situation. How do you want to show up? And just don't trash people, like in general, don't go around trashing people at work. The second point was around when Mia said, you know, it was a hard conversation, but that lasted for about two weeks, and then on the other side of it, it was so much goodness. I think that is something you can apply to so many situations at work. It's this acute short term pain that we feel and then the long term benefit is so worth it. So just like be willing to have that difficult conversation at the time and then just know that there's something really good on the other side.

Yeah, not like cutting yourself short because you're trying to escape an uncomfortable situation.

Yeah, not like cutting yourself short because you're trying to escape an uncomfortable situation.

Yeah, that's so it. And then the last way it was around every situation is recoverable and owning your narrative. Again for me, like just this idea, I found it so refreshing that, Yeah, she talked about the toxic culture there and all these problems with you know, there wasn't actually a role for her instructure and things like that. But I also really loved her honesty around. You know, she had this big project and it didn't really work. She was so non emotional and objective about this failure. And I feel like we all talk about, oh, yeah, learn from your failure, and you know, failing is good, but it never feels like that because no one really talks about times when they have failed. So I just loved that she talked about something that didn't work, and like she's been a rocket ship since then. So I just think owning your narrative, knowing that you have choices and there are things that you can do, even to her point, like LinkedIn didn't exist at the time. Now we've all got a platform and you can sort of you can course correct, you can kind of position things in the way you want to position them, and like everything is recoverable. So yeah, those are the three lessons that I am going to take away from this interview, and thank you so much.

Yeah, that's so it. And then the last way it was around every situation is recoverable and owning your narrative. Again for me, like just this idea, I found it so refreshing that, Yeah, she talked about the toxic culture there and all these problems with you know, there wasn't actually a role for her instructure and things like that. But I also really loved her honesty around. You know, she had this big project and it didn't really work. She was so non emotional and objective about this failure. And I feel like we all talk about, oh, yeah, learn from your failure, and you know, failing is good, but it never feels like that because no one really talks about times when they have failed. So I just loved that she talked about something that didn't work, and like she's been a rocket ship since then. So I just think owning your narrative, knowing that you have choices and there are things that you can do, even to her point, like LinkedIn didn't exist at the time. Now we've all got a platform and you can sort of you can course correct, you can kind of position things in the way you want to position them, and like everything is recoverable. So yeah, those are the three lessons that I am going to take away from this interview, and thank you so much.

I think those were great things to drive home. That last one in particular, she did just own that that show was basically a flop and there was nothing much else to it. It was just like, yeah, it didn't work. It was so unemotional. I feel like we've all got this.

I think those were great things to drive home. That last one in particular, she did just own that that show was basically a flop and there was nothing much else to it. It was just like, yeah, it didn't work. It was so unemotional. I feel like we've all got this.

Whenever we talk about our failures, it's sort of like it has to be this big thing. It's just like, very objectively, the show didn't work again. Back to that thing around. It wasn't personal. It doesn't mean she is bad at her job or will be forever. It's just like the show didn't work ever. Move on and I just yeah, that's definitely my favorite too.

Whenever we talk about our failures, it's sort of like it has to be this big thing. It's just like, very objectively, the show didn't work again. Back to that thing around. It wasn't personal. It doesn't mean she is bad at her job or will be forever. It's just like the show didn't work ever. Move on and I just yeah, that's definitely my favorite too.

The biggest takeaway from today's episode is that redundancy isn't personal, it's situational. As Mia showed us, it can actually be the push you need towards something much better. And here's a practical tip. If you're going through a redundancy, head to the fair Work website. There'll be a link in our show notes. They have a fantastic calculated tool that you can put in all your employment details and you can actually find out exactly what pay out you're entitled to. For more career advice and weekly work tips, make sure you're subscribed to our biz newsletter. We have everything in there for you. And also don't forget to follow us on Instagram at biz by Mom and Mia. We are constantly posting there and you can even save our little posts, because that's literally what i've been doing.

The biggest takeaway from today's episode is that redundancy isn't personal, it's situational. As Mia showed us, it can actually be the push you need towards something much better. And here's a practical tip. If you're going through a redundancy, head to the fair Work website. There'll be a link in our show notes. They have a fantastic calculated tool that you can put in all your employment details and you can actually find out exactly what pay out you're entitled to. For more career advice and weekly work tips, make sure you're subscribed to our biz newsletter. We have everything in there for you. And also don't forget to follow us on Instagram at biz by Mom and Mia. We are constantly posting there and you can even save our little posts, because that's literally what i've been doing.