You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. She says, what are you doing on social media? Dress like that?

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. She says, what are you doing on social media? Dress like that?

Oh ah, how are you dressed?

Oh ah, how are you dressed?

I was in my gardening. She I was like, in a pair of shitty old leggings and birkenstocks and a really ugly hat and an apron. But I was talking about my gardening. And she was just like, no, this isn't what we're doing on social media.

I was in my gardening. She I was like, in a pair of shitty old leggings and birkenstocks and a really ugly hat and an apron. But I was talking about my gardening. And she was just like, no, this isn't what we're doing on social media.

You say, Penny, I'm a relatable queen. I was like, it's my brand relatable queen.

You say, Penny, I'm a relatable queen. I was like, it's my brand relatable queen.

Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud and to our Friday show where you won't hear anything about the news cycle because yuck, it sucks.

Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud and to our Friday show where you won't hear anything about the news cycle because yuck, it sucks.

It does.

It does.

Just noticed that Jesse and I are wearing the same shit. We are. Yeah, we'd very interesting to you if you're listening to this. Sorry, sorry, out louders. Today on track is the twenty first of March, and I'm Hollywayen Right, I'm mea Friedman.

Just noticed that Jesse and I are wearing the same shit. We are. Yeah, we'd very interesting to you if you're listening to this. Sorry, sorry, out louders. Today on track is the twenty first of March, and I'm Hollywayen Right, I'm mea Friedman.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And I'm Jesse Stevens.

And on today's show, Mindy Kaling has just said she decided to become a solo mum because she didn't want to have to compromise on money, on work, on parenting choices. And she's just one of the high profile women publicly reimagining marriage, family and fidelity. Also the only TV show anyone's talking about this week, and it's not The White Lotus jelly Beans Versus Brussels Sprouts and MEA's latest self soothing video trend. Yes, it's our recommendations and our best and worst of the week include Falls, Performance, Anxiety, and a Friend's Tough Love. But first, Jesse Stevens, in case you missed.

And on today's show, Mindy Kaling has just said she decided to become a solo mum because she didn't want to have to compromise on money, on work, on parenting choices. And she's just one of the high profile women publicly reimagining marriage, family and fidelity. Also the only TV show anyone's talking about this week, and it's not The White Lotus jelly Beans Versus Brussels Sprouts and MEA's latest self soothing video trend. Yes, it's our recommendations and our best and worst of the week include Falls, Performance, Anxiety, and a Friend's Tough Love. But first, Jesse Stevens, in case you missed.

It, we would like to introduce you to some modern day curses. If there's one thing the world needs more of, it's some witchy style curses. But the best curses are specific and they wish harm, although not irreparable harm, upon one's enemy. My grand used to write people's names on a piece of paper put it in the freezer.

It, we would like to introduce you to some modern day curses. If there's one thing the world needs more of, it's some witchy style curses. But the best curses are specific and they wish harm, although not irreparable harm, upon one's enemy. My grand used to write people's names on a piece of paper put it in the freezer.

I still do that, do you do not? Sometimes I just get this very cold, creeping, cold sensation.

I still do that, do you do not? Sometimes I just get this very cold, creeping, cold sensation.

How do you do it? Often? I only it's in my bag of tricks that I use when really necessary. But it's quite psychologically good because usually when you're really thinking about someone that you obsessively hate. It takes a lot of energy from you. Yes, So I like the symbolism of I want to freeze my feelings towards them. I want to freeze the impact they have.

How do you do it? Often? I only it's in my bag of tricks that I use when really necessary. But it's quite psychologically good because usually when you're really thinking about someone that you obsessively hate. It takes a lot of energy from you. Yes, So I like the symbolism of I want to freeze my feelings towards them. I want to freeze the impact they have.

On you, go through your freezer. So, guys, I'm terrified because our boss of out Loud has just been waving her arm, going I do this the morning from hell, and I think it's her fault. What have I done across her?

On you, go through your freezer. So, guys, I'm terrified because our boss of out Loud has just been waving her arm, going I do this the morning from hell, and I think it's her fault. What have I done across her?

It's true, she's hext.

It's true, she's hext.

She has hext me and my grand Once she put someone's name in it and they got really sick, and then she stopped doing it because she believed waving.

She has hext me and my grand Once she put someone's name in it and they got really sick, and then she stopped doing it because she believed waving.

I just wish that they stop harming me. I don't wish that they Actually, you don't wish Ill.

I just wish that they stop harming me. I don't wish that they Actually, you don't wish Ill.

Not particularly, look sometimes you do wish Ill and Gemma Coral. If you don't follow her on Instagram already you should. She does hilarious comics about anxiety, highly relatable, and she recently shared a series of modern day curses that she put together a few years ago that are still very irrelevant. Would you like to hear some desperately?

Not particularly, look sometimes you do wish Ill and Gemma Coral. If you don't follow her on Instagram already you should. She does hilarious comics about anxiety, highly relatable, and she recently shared a series of modern day curses that she put together a few years ago that are still very irrelevant. Would you like to hear some desperately?

Yes?

Yes?

All right?

All right?

May your videos buffer for ten thousand years? May your coffee always be decaf. May there eternally be an unexpected item in your bagging area. Yes, I've definitely been cur May your epita so like your tombstone. May that font be comic sands. Because your death will never be taken. You'll always look a little bit.

May your videos buffer for ten thousand years? May your coffee always be decaf. May there eternally be an unexpected item in your bagging area. Yes, I've definitely been cur May your epita so like your tombstone. May that font be comic sands. Because your death will never be taken. You'll always look a little bit.

Like honor in law who's choosing that for you? And imagine that she always loved comics. It's joke.

Like honor in law who's choosing that for you? And imagine that she always loved comics. It's joke.

May not nobody help you find a tampon when you really really need one.

May not nobody help you find a tampon when you really really need one.

I've had this situation.

I've had this situation.

May you always be the one at the group dinner who isn't drinking and has to pay an equal share of the bill nonetheless.

May you always be the one at the group dinner who isn't drinking and has to pay an equal share of the bill nonetheless.

On the tampon, I asked my I'm going to call her, my sister in law. I said to her, can I borrow a tampon recently? And she said, this is a modern day curse. I've got one, but they may be too small for you to day one of the sickest burns. It might just fall fall out because of your vagina. And I was like, I think I'll be fine. Thanks.

On the tampon, I asked my I'm going to call her, my sister in law. I said to her, can I borrow a tampon recently? And she said, this is a modern day curse. I've got one, but they may be too small for you to day one of the sickest burns. It might just fall fall out because of your vagina. And I was like, I think I'll be fine. Thanks.

May your phone battery die right before you press send on a very long and brilliant text message. Yeah love it May you bleed through your clothes and onto the chair in an important work meeting when you're wearing a light colored skirt.

May your phone battery die right before you press send on a very long and brilliant text message. Yeah love it May you bleed through your clothes and onto the chair in an important work meeting when you're wearing a light colored skirt.

I've done that in this very chair you have.

I've done that in this very chair you have.

Oh I've got another one. May you never be able to find a pair of jeans that really suit you. Oh, that's the perennial curse. And finally, May your vibrator run out of charge right before you arrive.

Oh I've got another one. May you never be able to find a pair of jeans that really suit you. Oh, that's the perennial curse. And finally, May your vibrator run out of charge right before you arrive.

Most annoying.

Most annoying.

Okay, I have a few. May all your accounts be linked to an email address you no longer have access to.

Okay, I have a few. May all your accounts be linked to an email address you no longer have access to.

Oh my god, that has happened to me so many times. I just make This is making me realize that I have been.

Oh my god, that has happened to me so many times. I just make This is making me realize that I have been.

I think I reckon that Ruth has you in the in the freezer? Allegh does I'm looking at her? May your passport photo be unspeakably upside Yeah, well I've already got that. May your favorite influencer be radicalized by the deepha.

I think I reckon that Ruth has you in the in the freezer? Allegh does I'm looking at her? May your passport photo be unspeakably upside Yeah, well I've already got that. May your favorite influencer be radicalized by the deepha.

Oh that's so annoying when that happens.

Oh that's so annoying when that happens.

May you be kicked out of the latest White Lotus episode three quarters of the way through because too many people are using this account. And may you also be the person who pays for the account that has happened.

May you be kicked out of the latest White Lotus episode three quarters of the way through because too many people are using this account. And may you also be the person who pays for the account that has happened.

To you you know my story.

To you you know my story.

May your phone have very poor battery life, because that's where I'm at three pm dead.

May your phone have very poor battery life, because that's where I'm at three pm dead.

May your AirPods always be in your other.

May your AirPods always be in your other.

Bag, yeah, and then when you find them dead.

Bag, yeah, and then when you find them dead.

May every supermarket trolley require a coin.

May every supermarket trolley require a coin.

Oh, I can't tell you who has a coin? What even is a coin? I know?

Oh, I can't tell you who has a coin? What even is a coin? I know?

May you never have the right charger, yeah, always happens. And may your keep cup always just be that tiny bit dirty when you pull it out to hand it to the barista. Tell us yours out loud, as we know that you are mean and crawls. Your curses will be way best.

May you never have the right charger, yeah, always happens. And may your keep cup always just be that tiny bit dirty when you pull it out to hand it to the barista. Tell us yours out loud, as we know that you are mean and crawls. Your curses will be way best.

For generations. The narrative went a bit like this girl falls in love with boy, gets married, has children in that order. But in twenty twenty five, people who want kids are creating families on their own terms. Like Collie. She's not married because nobody wants to put a ring on it, and yet she has two children and a long term boyfriend. For those who do want kids, reproductive technology and the relaxation of social mores have turned having a family into a bit but choose your own adventure. I think we can all agree, but not everybody is happy about that, which we will get to because these days there are options. Women are using sperm banks to become single mothers, same sex couples are using donors and surrogates to have children, and there are thrupples raising kids and polyamorous parents. Interviewed a few of those, And of course this is on top of blended families. I grew up in one of those when it was pretty rare, but now it's very bog standard common. But the point is that there's no longer a set way to be a mother if you want to be. And this week Mindy Kayling, who we last saw sitting under a balloon arch with Megan Markle at the World's Saddest Children's party without many children. She has spoken about the family that she's made on the Daks Shepherd podcast. She is a writer, producer and actor. Of course she's chosen to be a single mom. She's got three little kids who are seven, four, and one, and she's kept them totally out of the public eye, even during her pregnan seats, which is pretty unusual in Hollywood. We spoke earlier in the week about secret pregnanc seats. She kind of did that. She just sort of announced that she had the children, and she's never said who their biological father is. Here's what she said on Dax's podcast, where she spoke about why she chose to have kids on her own.

For generations. The narrative went a bit like this girl falls in love with boy, gets married, has children in that order. But in twenty twenty five, people who want kids are creating families on their own terms. Like Collie. She's not married because nobody wants to put a ring on it, and yet she has two children and a long term boyfriend. For those who do want kids, reproductive technology and the relaxation of social mores have turned having a family into a bit but choose your own adventure. I think we can all agree, but not everybody is happy about that, which we will get to because these days there are options. Women are using sperm banks to become single mothers, same sex couples are using donors and surrogates to have children, and there are thrupples raising kids and polyamorous parents. Interviewed a few of those, And of course this is on top of blended families. I grew up in one of those when it was pretty rare, but now it's very bog standard common. But the point is that there's no longer a set way to be a mother if you want to be. And this week Mindy Kayling, who we last saw sitting under a balloon arch with Megan Markle at the World's Saddest Children's party without many children. She has spoken about the family that she's made on the Daks Shepherd podcast. She is a writer, producer and actor. Of course she's chosen to be a single mom. She's got three little kids who are seven, four, and one, and she's kept them totally out of the public eye, even during her pregnan seats, which is pretty unusual in Hollywood. We spoke earlier in the week about secret pregnanc seats. She kind of did that. She just sort of announced that she had the children, and she's never said who their biological father is. Here's what she said on Dax's podcast, where she spoke about why she chose to have kids on her own.

Yeah, you know, I felt when I was a kid, I'm definitely getting married because I love romantic love and I love men and romance, and I'm definitely going to have children. And then when I got into my twenties and I had a couple pretty unfulfilling relationships, and then I was I was in my thirties, I was like, I don't know. I knew that I wanted children, but I was old enough at that point and had enough sort of disposable income and had seen so many acrimonious divorces. I hope this doesn't sound bad, and this is not going to be relatable to a lot of listeners, But a person would have built up their career and their nest egg and then they have a divorce in half of their money.

Yeah, you know, I felt when I was a kid, I'm definitely getting married because I love romantic love and I love men and romance, and I'm definitely going to have children. And then when I got into my twenties and I had a couple pretty unfulfilling relationships, and then I was I was in my thirties, I was like, I don't know. I knew that I wanted children, but I was old enough at that point and had enough sort of disposable income and had seen so many acrimonious divorces. I hope this doesn't sound bad, and this is not going to be relatable to a lot of listeners, But a person would have built up their career and their nest egg and then they have a divorce in half of their money.

So I know that.

So I know that.

Should happen in most cases in California laws of reason to protect families, and I get it, but I was like, damn, I don't want that exactly, not that it's all about the money and so this romantic part of me that was like, you're gonna find your Darcy was like.

Should happen in most cases in California laws of reason to protect families, and I get it, but I was like, damn, I don't want that exactly, not that it's all about the money and so this romantic part of me that was like, you're gonna find your Darcy was like.

Well what if Darcy chicks all my body.

Well what if Darcy chicks all my body.

And then takes off my money? And then I have these fantasies because I'm insane, where I'm like, it's going to take half my money and his bitch wife they'll get a fucking fifth Avenue apartment.

And then takes off my money? And then I have these fantasies because I'm insane, where I'm like, it's going to take half my money and his bitch wife they'll get a fucking fifth Avenue apartment.

You didn't let yourself buy.

You didn't let yourself buy.

Yeah, and then my office residuals from playing Kelly. They're going to be sending their kids to Dalton in the Upper West Side or whatever while I'm child But because I have revenge fantasies, not healthy at all. I was like, I don't want my money to go to this hypothetical X and his new family. I also was like, I want to have Christmas and Thanksgiving with my children every year because I'm a writer and also insane, these fantasies where I'm like, so I would be then alone where my children were going to this other person's house.

Yeah, and then my office residuals from playing Kelly. They're going to be sending their kids to Dalton in the Upper West Side or whatever while I'm child But because I have revenge fantasies, not healthy at all. I was like, I don't want my money to go to this hypothetical X and his new family. I also was like, I want to have Christmas and Thanksgiving with my children every year because I'm a writer and also insane, these fantasies where I'm like, so I would be then alone where my children were going to this other person's house.

She basically went on to say that she didn't want to compromise, so there was the fear of divorce. But then also she's saying I didn't really want to compromise. I love my work. I loved my job. I've decided I had space for work and children, and that was that. And I don't want to waste my time picking out a sweater for my imaginary sister in law, etc.

She basically went on to say that she didn't want to compromise, so there was the fear of divorce. But then also she's saying I didn't really want to compromise. I love my work. I loved my job. I've decided I had space for work and children, and that was that. And I don't want to waste my time picking out a sweater for my imaginary sister in law, etc.

It was a pretty bleak view. And it's interesting because she said her parents had a great marriage, but she saw the idea of a co parent as being very much liability.

It was a pretty bleak view. And it's interesting because she said her parents had a great marriage, but she saw the idea of a co parent as being very much liability.

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear women talking like that. I was driving my car when I heard her, when I was listening to that, and I wanted to pull over and make a note because I've got no memory, because I was like, hearing a woman talk so honestly about money. Yeah, and not wanting to compromise and not wanting to care for someone else is just something that women don't say loud.

I found it very refreshing because you don't hear women talking like that. I was driving my car when I heard her, when I was listening to that, and I wanted to pull over and make a note because I've got no memory, because I was like, hearing a woman talk so honestly about money. Yeah, and not wanting to compromise and not wanting to care for someone else is just something that women don't say loud.

I have a few friends who have decided to have babies on their own, and there are elements of that I've heard, because if you're in your mid thirties, then you've likely had a few relationships that haven't worked and they've gone. None of those men were fit to raise children with me. I'm so glad that I didn't have children with those men. And I think sometimes they're looking around at friends or circumstances. I know someone who recently had a baby and it maybe six months. The husband walked out and she ended up doing it on her own. Single mothers raising children have always existed. Oh, it's just that now it can be a choice.

I have a few friends who have decided to have babies on their own, and there are elements of that I've heard, because if you're in your mid thirties, then you've likely had a few relationships that haven't worked and they've gone. None of those men were fit to raise children with me. I'm so glad that I didn't have children with those men. And I think sometimes they're looking around at friends or circumstances. I know someone who recently had a baby and it maybe six months. The husband walked out and she ended up doing it on her own. Single mothers raising children have always existed. Oh, it's just that now it can be a choice.

But also what I hadn't heard before is the talking about the financial component, right, because that is unrelatable. As Mindy says herself, she's like she was in a position where she's like, I've got a fortune. I want to protect it. Now normally that's what you hear men say, and she's like, I want to protect my fortune, but also my fortune has afforded me choice.

But also what I hadn't heard before is the talking about the financial component, right, because that is unrelatable. As Mindy says herself, she's like she was in a position where she's like, I've got a fortune. I want to protect it. Now normally that's what you hear men say, and she's like, I want to protect my fortune, but also my fortune has afforded me choice.

I think exercise the fortune is the key here because I think and I also know women who've chosen to have children without a father involved via a sperm donation. And it's tough. It's really tough when you are the only parent, because not only do you miss out on having a co parent, you miss out on having the family of the co parent. Now that's not always a good thing, but there is certainly some safety nets and some more people involved in your child's life that you become the single point of failure.

I think exercise the fortune is the key here because I think and I also know women who've chosen to have children without a father involved via a sperm donation. And it's tough. It's really tough when you are the only parent, because not only do you miss out on having a co parent, you miss out on having the family of the co parent. Now that's not always a good thing, but there is certainly some safety nets and some more people involved in your child's life that you become the single point of failure.

That's true, but that also assumes that those things are always good, you know, as you just said, it's not like so. I think that people do what they do and money is a massive factor in this and choices. But saying oh, but you don't get the support assumes that everyone who's married or partnered or whatever has the support of their life. Not always true, lives near them there around.

That's true, but that also assumes that those things are always good, you know, as you just said, it's not like so. I think that people do what they do and money is a massive factor in this and choices. But saying oh, but you don't get the support assumes that everyone who's married or partnered or whatever has the support of their life. Not always true, lives near them there around.

There's a lot of married women who are raising children.

There's a lot of married women who are raising children.

On their own.

On their own.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that sometimes you might think, I don't want to have to compromise with just a partner. There's a lot else that you don't have. My own point is that it's many hands make light work.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that sometimes you might think, I don't want to have to compromise with just a partner. There's a lot else that you don't have. My own point is that it's many hands make light work.

Yes, yes, And I think criticizing I think what's interesting and we're going to kind of get into this more is romanticizing different visions of families, right, because there's imperfections and constraints in really any way that you put together a family. And Miranda July who wrote All Fours, which we loved, one of our favorite books from last year. It was a book about a woman who was I suppose, trying to throw off some of the shackles of motherhood and long term monogamy. And she has this newsletter and has been sort of compiling examples of non traditional marriages as she calls them, and she has people writing, yeah, because.

Yes, yes, And I think criticizing I think what's interesting and we're going to kind of get into this more is romanticizing different visions of families, right, because there's imperfections and constraints in really any way that you put together a family. And Miranda July who wrote All Fours, which we loved, one of our favorite books from last year. It was a book about a woman who was I suppose, trying to throw off some of the shackles of motherhood and long term monogamy. And she has this newsletter and has been sort of compiling examples of non traditional marriages as she calls them, and she has people writing, yeah, because.

She left, what was her story again? Just remind me because I know the book, but she it mirrored her life a little bit because she was married to a man, had a child.

She left, what was her story again? Just remind me because I know the book, but she it mirrored her life a little bit because she was married to a man, had a child.

I think they might have opened up their relationship.

I think they might have opened up their relationship.

Yeah. The plot in All Fours, if you haven't read it, it's not a linear divorce plot, and nor is what she's exploring it through her newsletter is it's this idea of different models of family. So she didn't leave. She stayed, but they opened up their relationship and she started exploring relationships with women which she'd had in the past. And he got a girlfriend, but they stayed a family unit for a period of time and then that changed. And what she does through her sub stack is she encourages other people living in non traditional families to share their stories. And they're really varied.

Yeah. The plot in All Fours, if you haven't read it, it's not a linear divorce plot, and nor is what she's exploring it through her newsletter is it's this idea of different models of family. So she didn't leave. She stayed, but they opened up their relationship and she started exploring relationships with women which she'd had in the past. And he got a girlfriend, but they stayed a family unit for a period of time and then that changed. And what she does through her sub stack is she encourages other people living in non traditional families to share their stories. And they're really varied.

They're really really varied. So one example is ethical non monogamy. For example, there's a woman who writes in and she's queer. She's in a long term relationship with a man, but she explores that other part of herself while still being married. There's also something called polysolo, which I hadn't heard, and that is when a few of the women write about the man therewith having affairs and they don't mind. They're not in a sexual era and they just go, I'm happy to be on my own and you do what you need to do. Spousal caregiver this was another one. So there was one who wrote in about her husband's illness. So this seems to be not entirely uncommon when you're in a relationship and maybe that relationship is fractured or you're thinking about ending it and life throws you a really serious diagnosis. And the amount of women who stay with them because they know that when you are nearing the end of your life, you need people. There were others that were in the midst of a breakup when the la fires happened, and so that emergency meant that there was almost like a trauma bond, like they had to stay together. Another example was nesting or living a part together. And this is also about finances and like how couples do that.

They're really really varied. So one example is ethical non monogamy. For example, there's a woman who writes in and she's queer. She's in a long term relationship with a man, but she explores that other part of herself while still being married. There's also something called polysolo, which I hadn't heard, and that is when a few of the women write about the man therewith having affairs and they don't mind. They're not in a sexual era and they just go, I'm happy to be on my own and you do what you need to do. Spousal caregiver this was another one. So there was one who wrote in about her husband's illness. So this seems to be not entirely uncommon when you're in a relationship and maybe that relationship is fractured or you're thinking about ending it and life throws you a really serious diagnosis. And the amount of women who stay with them because they know that when you are nearing the end of your life, you need people. There were others that were in the midst of a breakup when the la fires happened, and so that emergency meant that there was almost like a trauma bond, like they had to stay together. Another example was nesting or living a part together. And this is also about finances and like how couples do that.

Yeah, I knew of they not together, but they just take it in turns.

Yeah, I knew of they not together, but they just take it in turns.

Some stay living together, or they stay living couple. Yeah, right, So in fact it was a childhood wrote in and said, growing up, my parents were split, but they were amicable, and they lived in the same house. One was upstairs, one was downstairs. They even had other relationships. Someone would come in, someone would leave, but they lived in the same house. And what I found reading about I thought, chances are that these sorts of arrangements have existed for a lot longer one hundred percent. Then I think they've always been around. But they've always been around. Now we can give them cute little names. Yep.

Some stay living together, or they stay living couple. Yeah, right, So in fact it was a childhood wrote in and said, growing up, my parents were split, but they were amicable, and they lived in the same house. One was upstairs, one was downstairs. They even had other relationships. Someone would come in, someone would leave, but they lived in the same house. And what I found reading about I thought, chances are that these sorts of arrangements have existed for a lot longer one hundred percent. Then I think they've always been around. But they've always been around. Now we can give them cute little names. Yep.

And also now in some circles at least you can talk about it, because I think you're one hundred percent right. There have always been couples who can't afford to separate but stay living together until the kids leave home. There have always been couples who choose not to live together but stay in a relationship. Because that's another thing. Here is like long distance, or we're dating, but we have separate houses, or we're committed, but we have separate houses. There have always been women or men who will turn the blind eye or actively engage in the idea that their partner's having sex with someone else, because their familial bond is the most important, and that they are entirely bonded together through sickness and health and all of the things that go along with having a family. But they're not romantically in love anymore. All of that I think has always existed, but now it feels like we're allowed to maybe whisper it a little bit louder.

And also now in some circles at least you can talk about it, because I think you're one hundred percent right. There have always been couples who can't afford to separate but stay living together until the kids leave home. There have always been couples who choose not to live together but stay in a relationship. Because that's another thing. Here is like long distance, or we're dating, but we have separate houses, or we're committed, but we have separate houses. There have always been women or men who will turn the blind eye or actively engage in the idea that their partner's having sex with someone else, because their familial bond is the most important, and that they are entirely bonded together through sickness and health and all of the things that go along with having a family. But they're not romantically in love anymore. All of that I think has always existed, but now it feels like we're allowed to maybe whisper it a little bit louder.

Unsurprisingly, this has given way to somewhat of a moral panic. So it's there are some people looking at this going are we presenting women with an unrealistic fantasy of novelty, of life being about sort of multiple sexual partners, as though that doesn't come with its own issues. Freddi de Boa, who we've talked about on this show before, wrote a newsletter about Miranda July and he basically argued that this fantasy version that Miranda July is selling people doesn't actually exist for anyone. And he said that in twenty twenty five, what the media sells is permission, and that's what women are looking for. Permission.

Unsurprisingly, this has given way to somewhat of a moral panic. So it's there are some people looking at this going are we presenting women with an unrealistic fantasy of novelty, of life being about sort of multiple sexual partners, as though that doesn't come with its own issues. Freddi de Boa, who we've talked about on this show before, wrote a newsletter about Miranda July and he basically argued that this fantasy version that Miranda July is selling people doesn't actually exist for anyone. And he said that in twenty twenty five, what the media sells is permission, and that's what women are looking for. Permission.

What does that mean and how does it not exist? Because women are literally describing their families and they're unconventional.

What does that mean and how does it not exist? Because women are literally describing their families and they're unconventional.

But what his theory is is that the people subscribing to this newsletter and reading it are in traditional marriages looking for permission to leave, to change that, to evolve that marriage. I would say, what's wrong with that? He's basically suggesting this is contagious and if you think that your life is going to be easier when you leave, it's not. And you're chasing this fantasy that doesn't exist. That's the thing about fancy.

But what his theory is is that the people subscribing to this newsletter and reading it are in traditional marriages looking for permission to leave, to change that, to evolve that marriage. I would say, what's wrong with that? He's basically suggesting this is contagious and if you think that your life is going to be easier when you leave, it's not. And you're chasing this fantasy that doesn't exist. That's the thing about fancy.

That's very patronized.

That's very patronized.

I would argue that the fantasy is actually the other way around. I think that I agree. What this is is giving a whispered voice in some very small corners that the fantasy that we've all been sold since the day we first put a little bridal veil on or a baby doll, that you will meet someone, you will fall madly in love. We will follow this timeline. You will stay together forever. You will always be obsessed with them, you will always want to have lots of sex with them. They will always treat you really well, and you will always treat them really well, and you'll always feel fulfilled. That is a fantasy we have had shoved down our throats forever. Yeah, that's the fantasy because most, well not most, but a lot of relationships not that neat, not to say they're not good or they're not fulfilling, or they're not exciting, or they're not but they're not that neat. This is speaking more to the messy reality. But it unnerves people because it's like, oh, so we're not pretending anymore, we're not just going along with Like I know he sleeps with other people, but no one could ever find that out because it would be so humiliating for me. This is more of women saying like, maybe that's what we have to do to stay together, and maybe it's not humiliating for me.

I would argue that the fantasy is actually the other way around. I think that I agree. What this is is giving a whispered voice in some very small corners that the fantasy that we've all been sold since the day we first put a little bridal veil on or a baby doll, that you will meet someone, you will fall madly in love. We will follow this timeline. You will stay together forever. You will always be obsessed with them, you will always want to have lots of sex with them. They will always treat you really well, and you will always treat them really well, and you'll always feel fulfilled. That is a fantasy we have had shoved down our throats forever. Yeah, that's the fantasy because most, well not most, but a lot of relationships not that neat, not to say they're not good or they're not fulfilling, or they're not exciting, or they're not but they're not that neat. This is speaking more to the messy reality. But it unnerves people because it's like, oh, so we're not pretending anymore, we're not just going along with Like I know he sleeps with other people, but no one could ever find that out because it would be so humiliating for me. This is more of women saying like, maybe that's what we have to do to stay together, and maybe it's not humiliating for me.

What's interesting to me is to explore whether, and of course it's different for every person, whether people are doing this for themselves or for their kids, or it's a combination of both. By that, I mean whether they're finding ways to give their children a sort of a family experience, and maybe it is staying with the father or the co parent of that child and that it's good for the children, or whether it's I just need to live my life beyond my identity is just a parent and I'm not fulfilled and that's the most important thing. And I'm sure it's a bit of both.

What's interesting to me is to explore whether, and of course it's different for every person, whether people are doing this for themselves or for their kids, or it's a combination of both. By that, I mean whether they're finding ways to give their children a sort of a family experience, and maybe it is staying with the father or the co parent of that child and that it's good for the children, or whether it's I just need to live my life beyond my identity is just a parent and I'm not fulfilled and that's the most important thing. And I'm sure it's a bit of both.

It is, and I think with Deboa, and I find that he's writing interesting. I found this to suggest that the contagion exists within women. Leaving is almost comical because the contagion is staying, Like I think that that's where people feel the pressure most of all. And happy women are not leaving the marriages.

It is, and I think with Deboa, and I find that he's writing interesting. I found this to suggest that the contagion exists within women. Leaving is almost comical because the contagion is staying, Like I think that that's where people feel the pressure most of all. And happy women are not leaving the marriages.

Spoken like a man who's worried that his wife's going.

Spoken like a man who's worried that his wife's going.

To get Yeah, I did. Happy happy women are not reading a newsletter and going all lots of sex and leaving my children. That is not how women's minds work. Like I think that if you've been in a marriage for a lot of years and you're going, I'm not happy, then exploring what other options look like can feel empowering. And in one of mirandogialized emails, she kind of had things to consider before blowing up your life because she says, you can blow up your life or maybe you're not ready to do that, like, maybe here are some things to consider. And she has this line, which is keep an eye on death and who you want to be as you near it. And this suggested to me, is there something about the kind of later in life shift in marriages and in relationships where people looking around and going, this isn't how I want.

To get Yeah, I did. Happy happy women are not reading a newsletter and going all lots of sex and leaving my children. That is not how women's minds work. Like I think that if you've been in a marriage for a lot of years and you're going, I'm not happy, then exploring what other options look like can feel empowering. And in one of mirandogialized emails, she kind of had things to consider before blowing up your life because she says, you can blow up your life or maybe you're not ready to do that, like, maybe here are some things to consider. And she has this line, which is keep an eye on death and who you want to be as you near it. And this suggested to me, is there something about the kind of later in life shift in marriages and in relationships where people looking around and going, this isn't how I want.

To spend the last one hundred percent trough. I interviewed a woman on mid for an episode we did called who Cares Who You Sleep With? This woman had been married, she was forty, she'd been married for a while, and in her early forties she had a child. She came out as bisexual, and the people around her were all like, why would you do that? Like why would you tell people? Why would you feel a need to come out as bisexual? Like ick, like, who cares about you? What does it matter what you want? Like just if you want to do that, just do that, but don't like tell people. And she was like, well, who cares? I care? You know, She's like, don't I get to be me? Like when I agreed to get married and have a child, did I also agree? And some people would say absolutely yes. Your point before about self expression that all my needs and who I really am is then frozen in time and also is a shameful secret or am I allowed to evolve and change? And she said in the same way that people might say to a teen who is talking about their sexuality, Oh, it's a phase, she said. Everyone said to her, it's a midlife crisis.

To spend the last one hundred percent trough. I interviewed a woman on mid for an episode we did called who Cares Who You Sleep With? This woman had been married, she was forty, she'd been married for a while, and in her early forties she had a child. She came out as bisexual, and the people around her were all like, why would you do that? Like why would you tell people? Why would you feel a need to come out as bisexual? Like ick, like, who cares about you? What does it matter what you want? Like just if you want to do that, just do that, but don't like tell people. And she was like, well, who cares? I care? You know, She's like, don't I get to be me? Like when I agreed to get married and have a child, did I also agree? And some people would say absolutely yes. Your point before about self expression that all my needs and who I really am is then frozen in time and also is a shameful secret or am I allowed to evolve and change? And she said in the same way that people might say to a teen who is talking about their sexuality, Oh, it's a phase, she said. Everyone said to her, it's a midlife crisis.

Ooh.

Ooh.

And it's really interesting ways that we dismiss people's feelings and say you'll get over that. And she was like, but I don't want to live the rest of my life pretending to be someone.

And it's really interesting ways that we dismiss people's feelings and say you'll get over that. And she was like, but I don't want to live the rest of my life pretending to be someone.

I'm not true, because women have always been not just encouraged but expected to subjugate our own identities and our own desires and be mother first.

I'm not true, because women have always been not just encouraged but expected to subjugate our own identities and our own desires and be mother first.

And there's a part of that that's a cential right.

And there's a part of that that's a cential right.

But it's interesting. I interviewed Rowan Mangan on No Filter a number of years ago, and she was part of a throuple and she fell in love with these two women who had been married for a really long time, Martha Beck and her wife Karen, and they had adult children, and Rowan was sort of a generation younger, and the three of them entered into a committed relationship, and Rowan wanted to have a baby, and she had this baby, and she spoke a lot about we don't know how anyone does it with less than three wives, Like we often say to each other, God, it just I'm at work and the child's sick at daycare, and one person picks up the child and the other person's doing something and she talks about this, it does sound pretty utopian, to be honest, and I love this idea of you know, you can't be what you can't see, and I love that there are so many more models, But I also think that just like you can't be what you can't see, I think you don't know what parenting is going to be like until you become one. And I think that while on paper it can look great in terms of I don't have to compromise, I don't share my money, but it can be harder than it looks. And I'm not saying that in any condescending way. I know that from single mothers that say that.

But it's interesting. I interviewed Rowan Mangan on No Filter a number of years ago, and she was part of a throuple and she fell in love with these two women who had been married for a really long time, Martha Beck and her wife Karen, and they had adult children, and Rowan was sort of a generation younger, and the three of them entered into a committed relationship, and Rowan wanted to have a baby, and she had this baby, and she spoke a lot about we don't know how anyone does it with less than three wives, Like we often say to each other, God, it just I'm at work and the child's sick at daycare, and one person picks up the child and the other person's doing something and she talks about this, it does sound pretty utopian, to be honest, and I love this idea of you know, you can't be what you can't see, and I love that there are so many more models, But I also think that just like you can't be what you can't see, I think you don't know what parenting is going to be like until you become one. And I think that while on paper it can look great in terms of I don't have to compromise, I don't share my money, but it can be harder than it looks. And I'm not saying that in any condescending way. I know that from single mothers that say that.

To be wary of being too flippant about the single mother transition, like Missy Higgins has spoken about, you know, I'm no longer with my children's dad, and this is not where I want to be. This is really really hard, and I think that there would be a lot of single mothers who maybe see some of these stories or listen to some women who might have more resources than they do and think this isn't a fantasy. This is really really hard. I don't have support, I don't have.

To be wary of being too flippant about the single mother transition, like Missy Higgins has spoken about, you know, I'm no longer with my children's dad, and this is not where I want to be. This is really really hard, and I think that there would be a lot of single mothers who maybe see some of these stories or listen to some women who might have more resources than they do and think this isn't a fantasy. This is really really hard. I don't have support, I don't have.

Respite, renting family home on your own in anything close to a city is almost impossible. But then, on the other hand of that, it's always been the case that finances play a large part in why couple stay together, and so saying all of those things out loud is interesting out loud. As in a moment, Jesse has shotgunned what might be the best reco of the year so far. We'll be back.

Respite, renting family home on your own in anything close to a city is almost impossible. But then, on the other hand of that, it's always been the case that finances play a large part in why couple stay together, and so saying all of those things out loud is interesting out loud. As in a moment, Jesse has shotgunned what might be the best reco of the year so far. We'll be back.

Out louders. We've got to listen to dilemma and we need your collective wisdom to help us in our partners UI solve it. Okay, So here's the problem. You send a particularly spicy message meant for your partner to the family WhatsApp group. This happens. The whole thing happens a lot, doesn't it, which includes your in laws and teenage We've all been there, have we have? We getting a little bit into it, get a little bit sexy, and that you I send my oh blimey to Maya.

Out louders. We've got to listen to dilemma and we need your collective wisdom to help us in our partners UI solve it. Okay, So here's the problem. You send a particularly spicy message meant for your partner to the family WhatsApp group. This happens. The whole thing happens a lot, doesn't it, which includes your in laws and teenage We've all been there, have we have? We getting a little bit into it, get a little bit sexy, and that you I send my oh blimey to Maya.

Yes, I'm arriving, lu I'm arriving, post taste.

Yes, I'm arriving, lu I'm arriving, post taste.

The question is what do you do next, Maya? Your thoughts please.

The question is what do you do next, Maya? Your thoughts please.

Well, obviously you jump in and delay yes immediately, and then there's no evidence that it happened, because probably people won't screenshot it because they will be utterly horrified.

Well, obviously you jump in and delay yes immediately, and then there's no evidence that it happened, because probably people won't screenshot it because they will be utterly horrified.

Can you just.

Can you just.

Group and then you have to just throw your phone in the fire. Then you have to move to another country. That's what I would.

Group and then you have to just throw your phone in the fire. Then you have to move to another country. That's what I would.

Do, Holly, what do you think?

Do, Holly, what do you think?

Well, the thing is is obviously jump straight in and deleted. But there is nothing more tantalizing than this message was deleted in a group right.

Well, the thing is is obviously jump straight in and deleted. But there is nothing more tantalizing than this message was deleted in a group right.

That is the.

That is the.

Beginning of every good story.

Beginning of every good story.

And then question mark yeah exactly.

And then question mark yeah exactly.

Then everyone in the group chat has to be contacted did you see what that was? And then somebody, the youngest child probably will be like I saw it. I cannot speak of what I saw, but I saw it.

Then everyone in the group chat has to be contacted did you see what that was? And then somebody, the youngest child probably will be like I saw it. I cannot speak of what I saw, but I saw it.

The next message is just to find a therapist.

The next message is just to find a therapist.

The only solution is delete and deny, deny, deny, it never happened. I don't know what you're talking about.

The only solution is delete and deny, deny, deny, it never happened. I don't know what you're talking about.

That's it. One thing you could say, in all seriousness is that you can say sorry, like after you delete it. Sorry, wrong chat. That was an in joke with my gol Oh, yeah, you have to remember, we'll cover it.

That's it. One thing you could say, in all seriousness is that you can say sorry, like after you delete it. Sorry, wrong chat. That was an in joke with my gol Oh, yeah, you have to remember, we'll cover it.

Jesse put a cute picture of Luna at swithing lessons in our group chat the other week, and I was like, that's an unusual thing. To be in there. I feel like it's in the wrong chat, but I have to comment on it because Beutel and I was like, is really cute?

Jesse put a cute picture of Luna at swithing lessons in our group chat the other week, and I was like, that's an unusual thing. To be in there. I feel like it's in the wrong chat, but I have to comment on it because Beutel and I was like, is really cute?

That was like cute Luna because you could yeah, because you couldn't say wrong chat. I'm disinterested in your child.

That was like cute Luna because you could yeah, because you couldn't say wrong chat. I'm disinterested in your child.

At least it was that one.

At least it was that one.

I'm not one of the ones for She's arriving.

I'm not one of the ones for She's arriving.

Vibes, ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

Vibes, ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

This is my best recommendation.

This is my best recommendation.

It's Friday and you need ship to watch and scroll on the weekend. Jesse, go hard. You've got a really good record.

It's Friday and you need ship to watch and scroll on the weekend. Jesse, go hard. You've got a really good record.

It's the best thing ever made. It's best ever made the time. No, no, I don't okay. You know the Guardian only ever gives things one to two stars.

It's the best thing ever made. It's best ever made the time. No, no, I don't okay. You know the Guardian only ever gives things one to two stars.

Right.

Right.

The Guardian has given this show five stars and said it is as close to television perfection as you can get. It is cool television perfection adolescence. It is on Netflix. It is mind blowing. You're watching it going wow as you're watching it, what are you looking for?

The Guardian has given this show five stars and said it is as close to television perfection as you can get. It is cool television perfection adolescence. It is on Netflix. It is mind blowing. You're watching it going wow as you're watching it, what are you looking for?

You're making a big mistake that.

You're making a big mistake that.

I haven't done anything.

I haven't done anything.

He's a good key there, Jamie.

He's a good key there, Jamie.

I want you to listen carefully.

I want you to listen carefully.

I'm going to start off with asking you do you know a girl called Katie Leonard? Yeah, describe each other as friends? Then has she dead?

I'm going to start off with asking you do you know a girl called Katie Leonard? Yeah, describe each other as friends? Then has she dead?

Then why would you ask her?

Then why would you ask her?

Hm? It begins with police bursting into Is.

Hm? It begins with police bursting into Is.

It a drama because it's come up on my Netflix and I'm like, is that a documentary?

It a drama because it's come up on my Netflix and I'm like, is that a documentary?

No, it's a drama, but it's unlike anything you've watched. So it begins with police bursting into this sort of normal suburban home in northern England where Holly's from and arresting fourteen year old Jamie Miller on the suspicion of murder. And I don't want to give too much away because I've seen spoilers going and it's only four episodes, so I feel like every plot point is important. But what you'll notice pretty quickly is that each episode is shot in a single take. So what that means is that it unfolds like a play. There are no cuts. You follow him to the police station, to the cell, to the interrogation, to the evidence. And the second episode is filmed in a school with hundreds of children. And I just kept going in a single take at forty two minutes.

No, it's a drama, but it's unlike anything you've watched. So it begins with police bursting into this sort of normal suburban home in northern England where Holly's from and arresting fourteen year old Jamie Miller on the suspicion of murder. And I don't want to give too much away because I've seen spoilers going and it's only four episodes, so I feel like every plot point is important. But what you'll notice pretty quickly is that each episode is shot in a single take. So what that means is that it unfolds like a play. There are no cuts. You follow him to the police station, to the cell, to the interrogation, to the evidence. And the second episode is filmed in a school with hundreds of children. And I just kept going in a single take at forty two minutes.

What if you stumbled they did this on an episode of Succession, Remember the one on the boat where they find out that Leans died, And I read so much about the making of that episode and how they had to run so hard, right, not.

What if you stumbled they did this on an episode of Succession, Remember the one on the boat where they find out that Leans died, And I read so much about the making of that episode and how they had to run so hard, right, not.

Just like the cast. There are a few moments the technical stuff where Lucra and I've been watching it and I went, I reckon, she made a mistake there, and she picked up like you're watching it like a play.

Just like the cast. There are a few moments the technical stuff where Lucra and I've been watching it and I went, I reckon, she made a mistake there, and she picked up like you're watching it like a play.

I had to do things like high had batteries in certain props and scenery because the camera battery would run out after a certain amount of time and they had to secretly change it while it was.

I had to do things like high had batteries in certain props and scenery because the camera battery would run out after a certain amount of time and they had to secretly change it while it was.

There's a scene where someone's running and they're chasing and you just it is remarkable. So Owen Cooper who is the lead. He's fifteen years old. His performance is mind blowing. And Stephen Graham, who if you watch British Police procedurals you recognize he was in Line of Duty. I think he's even been in like Pirates Caribbean. Very famous actor.

There's a scene where someone's running and they're chasing and you just it is remarkable. So Owen Cooper who is the lead. He's fifteen years old. His performance is mind blowing. And Stephen Graham, who if you watch British Police procedurals you recognize he was in Line of Duty. I think he's even been in like Pirates Caribbean. Very famous actor.

Who does he play?

Who does he play?

He is the Dave.

He is the Dave.

Oh yeah, he's very familiar and.

Oh yeah, he's very familiar and.

He wrote it him and another guy wrote it together, so he's just blow me away. But it is a show about Andrew Tate and the alienation of young men and misogyny and toxic masculinity. It's gonna be this year's baby Rangeer. It's gonna win every upset.

He wrote it him and another guy wrote it together, so he's just blow me away. But it is a show about Andrew Tate and the alienation of young men and misogyny and toxic masculinity. It's gonna be this year's baby Rangeer. It's gonna win every upset.

Yes, yes, I've only watched one episode and it's one hundred percent. I'm not watching it like I've only watched one episodes, but it is amazing. It's every bit as great as Jesse, but it's everybody. It is a grim Northern English crime drama, but not of your typical kind.

Yes, yes, I've only watched one episode and it's one hundred percent. I'm not watching it like I've only watched one episodes, but it is amazing. It's every bit as great as Jesse, but it's everybody. It is a grim Northern English crime drama, but not of your typical kind.

I've got something that's a lovely palette cleanser after you've watched that. It is so random. It is an account on YouTube that I've found that shows at a I don't even know what kind of game it is, baseball baseball, they have this look alike cam. I'm not going to explain it very well because it's very few.

I've got something that's a lovely palette cleanser after you've watched that. It is so random. It is an account on YouTube that I've found that shows at a I don't even know what kind of game it is, baseball baseball, they have this look alike cam. I'm not going to explain it very well because it's very few.

No, this has popped up on my TikTok.

No, this has popped up on my TikTok.

Has it Okay, So it's on TikTok. I found it on YouTube shorts and it goes into the audience. It will have like, I don't know, a picture of Bart Simpson, and then it'll find someone in the massive crowd that looks like Bart Simpson and they don't know they're going to be on it. So everyone in this whole stadium at the same time looks at the Bart Simpson and then looks at this person, and everyone like cheers.

Has it Okay, So it's on TikTok. I found it on YouTube shorts and it goes into the audience. It will have like, I don't know, a picture of Bart Simpson, and then it'll find someone in the massive crowd that looks like Bart Simpson and they don't know they're going to be on it. So everyone in this whole stadium at the same time looks at the Bart Simpson and then looks at this person, and everyone like cheers.

Do just a friend nominate them? I've always had a theory that someone does.

Do just a friend nominate them? I've always had a theory that someone does.

A pot sometimes they do dominate them. Yeah, I know. Now I'm obsessed with how it works, but it everybody from cartoon characters to celebrities. Sometimes it's very funny, like they'll be like.

A pot sometimes they do dominate them. Yeah, I know. Now I'm obsessed with how it works, but it everybody from cartoon characters to celebrities. Sometimes it's very funny, like they'll be like.

Is It'll be Peter Griffin and I'm like, well.

Is It'll be Peter Griffin and I'm like, well.

Like Rock from the Minions, and you'll just go like that is so true, and everyone's in the spirit of it. So everyone like laughs.

Like Rock from the Minions, and you'll just go like that is so true, and everyone's in the spirit of it. So everyone like laughs.

Expressed to me the person, explain to me what you're doing when you reach for this kind of content, Like what role does it play in your day? So what I.

Expressed to me the person, explain to me what you're doing when you reach for this kind of content, Like what role does it play in your day? So what I.

Found is because I watch YouTube when I'm on the treadmill, and sometimes I just need things that have nothing to do with work, that aren't like we should do this, that aren't going to spark an idea or anything. Although I'm recommending this now, but I just found myself going down this rabbit hole of watching them again and again and again, more and more of them. And just I had this stupid smile on my face the whole time.

Found is because I watch YouTube when I'm on the treadmill, and sometimes I just need things that have nothing to do with work, that aren't like we should do this, that aren't going to spark an idea or anything. Although I'm recommending this now, but I just found myself going down this rabbit hole of watching them again and again and again, more and more of them. And just I had this stupid smile on my face the whole time.

May And that is rare. This is what's going to happen, Holly. Maya's going to go to the US. She's going to nominate herself as looking like Rachel McAdams. That which time they're going to be so disappointed by the comparison.

May And that is rare. This is what's going to happen, Holly. Maya's going to go to the US. She's going to nominate herself as looking like Rachel McAdams. That which time they're going to be so disappointed by the comparison.

So true, just randomly relevant to nothing. We're driving the other DA and he just went, God, me, it looks like Matilda Brown.

So true, just randomly relevant to nothing. We're driving the other DA and he just went, God, me, it looks like Matilda Brown.

That's the other one. I get like Brian Brown and Rachel's daughter. I get that a lot.

That's the other one. I get like Brian Brown and Rachel's daughter. I get that a lot.

Why are you thinking about that?

Why are you thinking about that?

That and Rachel McAdams. Anyway, that's my record, Colly, what's your record?

That and Rachel McAdams. Anyway, that's my record, Colly, what's your record?

A reco that will make Mia be very like told you so, which is always fun. It's for a particular video. But there's a woman on Instagram who I really like to watch for her parenting advice for teenagers. You know how lots of parenting advice is for little kids, and that's why we've created a show at Mama Mia called Help I Have a Teenager. It's a very different face, right, And the other thing about teenage parenting content is it's often the end of the world you know what I mean, it's like everything's awful and actually less takes. Let's not talk about adolescents in the TV show in the context of this. But they're awful, they're bitchy, they're this, they're that, blah blah. There's a woman on Instagram called Lisa and she is a psychologist, a child psychologist who specialize in teenagers. She is American. She was a consultant on Inside Out to She is also just the most glorious, beautiful talent on this issue. She comes from a place of she loves teenagers and she's still practicing, so she talks about teenage she sees and also she always tells you, which is the main thing that parents of teenagers worry about, that if they are pulling away, that's what's meant to happen, which is also to me, as we said to me. Anyway, there is a particular video of hers that I came across this week I really loved, and she talked about how when you're a teenager, you go from being a jelly bean parent to a Brussels sprout parent. And she's explained that that's because like when your kids are little, so like where Luna is with you right now. Jesse, You're a jelly bean. You are a delight, like you're a treat. Seeing you is their eyes lied up and the smile and mummy, and you're a jelly bean and they just want more of you and they want you all the time. And when they're a teenager, you're a Brussels sprouted. Because I don't like it. It's because because they know that you're good for them and that you have some utility, so you're like something they need in their life and their diet. But you're kind of like, yeah, but the kickers sprout, So how do I I actually love that vegetable you hate? Analogy doesn't work for us. We're all Brussels Sprouse fans. But the thing I particularly love about this because you're like yes. And I remember reading a column that me around one hundred years ago about this and me going oh. She says that what parents of teens need to actively do is seek out other forms of joy in the world, because otherwise, during this period their self esteem will plummet.

A reco that will make Mia be very like told you so, which is always fun. It's for a particular video. But there's a woman on Instagram who I really like to watch for her parenting advice for teenagers. You know how lots of parenting advice is for little kids, and that's why we've created a show at Mama Mia called Help I Have a Teenager. It's a very different face, right, And the other thing about teenage parenting content is it's often the end of the world you know what I mean, it's like everything's awful and actually less takes. Let's not talk about adolescents in the TV show in the context of this. But they're awful, they're bitchy, they're this, they're that, blah blah. There's a woman on Instagram called Lisa and she is a psychologist, a child psychologist who specialize in teenagers. She is American. She was a consultant on Inside Out to She is also just the most glorious, beautiful talent on this issue. She comes from a place of she loves teenagers and she's still practicing, so she talks about teenage she sees and also she always tells you, which is the main thing that parents of teenagers worry about, that if they are pulling away, that's what's meant to happen, which is also to me, as we said to me. Anyway, there is a particular video of hers that I came across this week I really loved, and she talked about how when you're a teenager, you go from being a jelly bean parent to a Brussels sprout parent. And she's explained that that's because like when your kids are little, so like where Luna is with you right now. Jesse, You're a jelly bean. You are a delight, like you're a treat. Seeing you is their eyes lied up and the smile and mummy, and you're a jelly bean and they just want more of you and they want you all the time. And when they're a teenager, you're a Brussels sprouted. Because I don't like it. It's because because they know that you're good for them and that you have some utility, so you're like something they need in their life and their diet. But you're kind of like, yeah, but the kickers sprout, So how do I I actually love that vegetable you hate? Analogy doesn't work for us. We're all Brussels Sprouse fans. But the thing I particularly love about this because you're like yes. And I remember reading a column that me around one hundred years ago about this and me going oh. She says that what parents of teens need to actively do is seek out other forms of joy in the world, because otherwise, during this period their self esteem will plummet.

What I would say is that if you are raising a teenager, you need all adults need another source of feeling really good about themselves and feeling valuable in the world. So have other people who love you, who you turn to have a job or a hobby or work volunteer or paid that you do is meaningful to you. It is much much easier to be a Brussels Sprount to raise teenagers when your sense of value and feeling liked and loved in the world does not hinge on how your teenager is acting that day.

What I would say is that if you are raising a teenager, you need all adults need another source of feeling really good about themselves and feeling valuable in the world. So have other people who love you, who you turn to have a job or a hobby or work volunteer or paid that you do is meaningful to you. It is much much easier to be a Brussels Sprount to raise teenagers when your sense of value and feeling liked and loved in the world does not hinge on how your teenager is acting that day.

You still are super important to that and you need to be around, and you need to be helping and doing all the things and being present. But you need to find other things, other sources of.

You still are super important to that and you need to be around, and you need to be helping and doing all the things and being present. But you need to find other things, other sources of.

How very well you started saying pretty mummy. I don't think that fourteen year olds are going that Matilda's going pretty mummy, so not try and make her?

How very well you started saying pretty mummy. I don't think that fourteen year olds are going that Matilda's going pretty mummy, so not try and make her?

Does mummy look pretty good? We'll put a link to her stuff in the show notes.

Does mummy look pretty good? We'll put a link to her stuff in the show notes.

And you can look alike cam after the break a Megan moment performance, anxiety and bursting with pride. It is our best and worst of the week.

And you can look alike cam after the break a Megan moment performance, anxiety and bursting with pride. It is our best and worst of the week.

Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone who is already subscribed.

Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mum and Me are Out Loud just for Mum and Me as subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone who is already subscribed.

It's time for best and Worse. This is a part of the show where we share a little bit from our personal lives. Maya, I want to know your worst first, please.

It's time for best and Worse. This is a part of the show where we share a little bit from our personal lives. Maya, I want to know your worst first, please.

I fell out of my roof.

I fell out of my roof.

Why were you in your rope?

Why were you in your rope?

I did in fall off my roof. I fell out of my roof. So in my home office, which is also my wardrobe, there is a ladder that goes up to the attic and that's where you know, wist all things. And I had a whole lot of clothes that were in a basket that I was trying to carry up. It's like not a vertical ladder, but it's like quite steep, and I thought I could carry it up with one hand while I held onto the well there was in a banister. That was my problem. Anyway, I got halfway up and the weight of it I tiptop pulled over backwards. Tried to reach out to break my fall on one of my clothes racks, which unfortunately was made of wood and splintered and completely collapsed under me, and I ended up on smashing through it.