The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me, buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know what's happening, and it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They're available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness. On the podcast today, my guest is David Eagleman.

The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me, buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know what's happening, and it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. They're available at the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest in people about what brings them happiness. On the podcast today, my guest is David Eagleman.

Professor David Eagleman to be precise. Professor Eagleman, or David as I call him, is a neuroscientist he knows a lot about the human brain, but as it turns out, he knows a lot about artificial brains too.

Professor David Eagleman to be precise. Professor Eagleman, or David as I call him, is a neuroscientist he knows a lot about the human brain, but as it turns out, he knows a lot about artificial brains too.

He's just a very brainy guy.

He's just a very brainy guy.

So I'm going to sound a bit more stupid than usual in Jomi, David. Let me just say this before we start.

So I'm going to sound a bit more stupid than usual in Jomi, David. Let me just say this before we start.

Do I call you David? Do I call you mister Eagleman? Do I call you doctor Eagleman? Or do you call you professor Eagleman?

Do I call you David? Do I call you mister Eagleman? Do I call you doctor Eagleman? Or do you call you professor Eagleman?

Or sir? Please call me David. All right? Is it a doctor? By the way, you're doctor? Yeah? Doctor Eagelman would be what yes, but my mother would call me yes.

Or sir? Please call me David. All right? Is it a doctor? By the way, you're doctor? Yeah? Doctor Eagelman would be what yes, but my mother would call me yes.

Now I gotta apologize because I'm going to not so much to you personally, because I think you'll probably be able to handle it, but to people who already know and and understand what you do, I'm going to come across as someone who doesn't know anything about what you do. Now, let's just say that I actually do know what you're doing. I know everything about your studies and and what you kind of do. And I'm not an ideot, but everybody knows I kind of a little bit. Because neuroscience is I barely understand the Dictionary definition of neuroscience correct me if I'm wrong. I think it is the study of how the brain works due to the physicality of the brain.

Now I gotta apologize because I'm going to not so much to you personally, because I think you'll probably be able to handle it, but to people who already know and and understand what you do, I'm going to come across as someone who doesn't know anything about what you do. Now, let's just say that I actually do know what you're doing. I know everything about your studies and and what you kind of do. And I'm not an ideot, but everybody knows I kind of a little bit. Because neuroscience is I barely understand the Dictionary definition of neuroscience correct me if I'm wrong. I think it is the study of how the brain works due to the physicality of the brain.

Is that. Yeah, you don't even need the second half. Just trying to figure out how the brain works, trying to figure out what's going on with the brain. And it can be anything from understanding how vision works, are hearing, to understanding decision making, to understanding emotions, to understanding why we have consciousness or how we perceive time. Any of that falls under the umbrella of neuroscience.

Is that. Yeah, you don't even need the second half. Just trying to figure out how the brain works, trying to figure out what's going on with the brain. And it can be anything from understanding how vision works, are hearing, to understanding decision making, to understanding emotions, to understanding why we have consciousness or how we perceive time. Any of that falls under the umbrella of neuroscience.

But it's interesting because it seems to me to be something that it's an interesting science because it seems to kind of wonder the theology and metaphysics, and because everything is perception. Even the study of neuroscience is perception. So how do you feel like you kind of examining yourself from the inside.

But it's interesting because it seems to me to be something that it's an interesting science because it seems to kind of wonder the theology and metaphysics, and because everything is perception. Even the study of neuroscience is perception. So how do you feel like you kind of examining yourself from the inside.

Yeah, that's right. Well, I would say at the edges, neuroscience scratches lots of things, certainly philosophy, maybe theology, but the you know, the way you can do things is set things up objectively in the real world where you can verify. Look, I have, you know, three circles that are the color red, you know, projecting this wavelength on the screen and you know, what are people seeing. That's still example, But the point is we can set things up in the world and understand what people are individually experiencing. I'll give you an example. One of the things I study is called synesthesia, and that's where people have a blending of the senses. So they might look at letters on the page and it triggers a color experience for them, so they'll see Jay is purple, and why is blue? And m is red and so on, and you know, it's just an internal experience that they're having. We can verify what's going on in the real world. We can compare people to each other. About three percent of the population has synesthesia. But there are lots of things like this that we do where we study across people to understand how perception differs. You know, there are other things like if I ask you Craig to imagine a you know, an ant crawling our red and white table cloth towards jar of purple jelly. How do you perceive that in your head? Is it clear like a movie or is it you don't really see anything at all, it's just conceptual.

Yeah, that's right. Well, I would say at the edges, neuroscience scratches lots of things, certainly philosophy, maybe theology, but the you know, the way you can do things is set things up objectively in the real world where you can verify. Look, I have, you know, three circles that are the color red, you know, projecting this wavelength on the screen and you know, what are people seeing. That's still example, But the point is we can set things up in the world and understand what people are individually experiencing. I'll give you an example. One of the things I study is called synesthesia, and that's where people have a blending of the senses. So they might look at letters on the page and it triggers a color experience for them, so they'll see Jay is purple, and why is blue? And m is red and so on, and you know, it's just an internal experience that they're having. We can verify what's going on in the real world. We can compare people to each other. About three percent of the population has synesthesia. But there are lots of things like this that we do where we study across people to understand how perception differs. You know, there are other things like if I ask you Craig to imagine a you know, an ant crawling our red and white table cloth towards jar of purple jelly. How do you perceive that in your head? Is it clear like a movie or is it you don't really see anything at all, it's just conceptual.

Does it involve you then? And like, for example, you just gave me the the ant on the If you say, is it clear like a movie, it's such a weirdly Uh, it's semantics because I mean, if I do I imagine a clear iPhone film?

Does it involve you then? And like, for example, you just gave me the the ant on the If you say, is it clear like a movie, it's such a weirdly Uh, it's semantics because I mean, if I do I imagine a clear iPhone film?

Is it show on? Is a sixteen millimeters or print? Is it? Do you know what I mean? Is it black and white? Right? So, if you had to have if there was a spectrum from no picture at all in your head to a movie at you know, at the other end of the extreme, where would where would you be with the ant on the paper? Yeah, the on on the table cloth.

Is it show on? Is a sixteen millimeters or print? Is it? Do you know what I mean? Is it black and white? Right? So, if you had to have if there was a spectrum from no picture at all in your head to a movie at you know, at the other end of the extreme, where would where would you be with the ant on the paper? Yeah, the on on the table cloth.

I think I could get myself right up to imax with the end on the paper.

I think I could get myself right up to imax with the end on the paper.

Okay, that's that's amazing. So it turns out that there is a spectrum across the population. Everyone's spread pretty evenly across this in terms of how how visually you imagine things on the inside. And again, this is something that we can test across the population, and we can also test it objectively using grain imaging to see how much activity there is in the visual part of the brain. And we see that across anything we measure people exist on a spectrum. For example, if I ask you how loud or intrusive is your internal voice? You know, everyone has a dialogue with themselves, right right? Are you aware of your internal voice all the time or hardly? Ever?

Okay, that's that's amazing. So it turns out that there is a spectrum across the population. Everyone's spread pretty evenly across this in terms of how how visually you imagine things on the inside. And again, this is something that we can test across the population, and we can also test it objectively using grain imaging to see how much activity there is in the visual part of the brain. And we see that across anything we measure people exist on a spectrum. For example, if I ask you how loud or intrusive is your internal voice? You know, everyone has a dialogue with themselves, right right? Are you aware of your internal voice all the time or hardly? Ever?

I would say that that is very much situationally dependent. When I'm you know, when I'm calm, not at all. When I'm angry, probably not at all. And when i'm you know, when I'm trying to make a difficult or political decision a lot, you know so, or or am I thinking about the wrong thing?

I would say that that is very much situationally dependent. When I'm you know, when I'm calm, not at all. When I'm angry, probably not at all. And when i'm you know, when I'm trying to make a difficult or political decision a lot, you know so, or or am I thinking about the wrong thing?

No? No, that's that's right. That's a good observation that it differs moment to moment. But across the population, we also find, you know, some people are really overwhelmed by their internal radio. Other people have what's called an endophasia, which means no internal voice. They just know it's totally silent in there. Essentially, across anything we measure, we find that people have very different results. Or how about your memory? Are you do you have a great autobiographical memory? Can you remember exactly what you were doing at this time last year or five years ago?

No? No, that's that's right. That's a good observation that it differs moment to moment. But across the population, we also find, you know, some people are really overwhelmed by their internal radio. Other people have what's called an endophasia, which means no internal voice. They just know it's totally silent in there. Essentially, across anything we measure, we find that people have very different results. Or how about your memory? Are you do you have a great autobiographical memory? Can you remember exactly what you were doing at this time last year or five years ago?

And I think it's deteriorating as well. Actually as I age, I really am beginning to think there may be something in that.

And I think it's deteriorating as well. Actually as I age, I really am beginning to think there may be something in that.

Yeah, yeah, you just said that three minutes ago. No, I'm kidding her. Yeah, that's the thing. But you know, some people like Mary Lou Henner the actress, and you know somebody I have this, you know, untaxable autobiographical memory and everywhere in between.

Yeah, yeah, you just said that three minutes ago. No, I'm kidding her. Yeah, that's the thing. But you know, some people like Mary Lou Henner the actress, and you know somebody I have this, you know, untaxable autobiographical memory and everywhere in between.

I talked to Mary Lou Henna rctly and asked her about that, and she I tested her because I had worked with her years before on a different show. This was and I talked to her on late night and she had been on the drink, you know why. I got even remember why I was talking to her about it. But she really she really could do that. It's kind of it's like a weird trick. It's very it's impressive. I guess is a genetic I guess it's genetics.

I talked to Mary Lou Henna rctly and asked her about that, and she I tested her because I had worked with her years before on a different show. This was and I talked to her on late night and she had been on the drink, you know why. I got even remember why I was talking to her about it. But she really she really could do that. It's kind of it's like a weird trick. It's very it's impressive. I guess is a genetic I guess it's genetics.

Right, yeah, yeah, and so and actually so are all these things, at least as far as we can tell, you know, all this. But what it goes to illustrate is that people are very different from one another on the inside. And one of the this has been one of my eras of interest in neuroscience is figuring out why what are the genes or what are the experiences or you know, what is the thing that has led to different circuitry in Mary Leeu's brain in your brain, that would lead you to have different experiences of what memory is.

Right, yeah, yeah, and so and actually so are all these things, at least as far as we can tell, you know, all this. But what it goes to illustrate is that people are very different from one another on the inside. And one of the this has been one of my eras of interest in neuroscience is figuring out why what are the genes or what are the experiences or you know, what is the thing that has led to different circuitry in Mary Leeu's brain in your brain, that would lead you to have different experiences of what memory is.

What would happen or have you ever encountered anithon divid I can imagine that it could be potentially very explosive if you say you know, well you know, because it could lead you into horrible areas of racism. Like you say, Medisranean people tend their brains stand to be like this, or Nordic people their brains stand to.

What would happen or have you ever encountered anithon divid I can imagine that it could be potentially very explosive if you say you know, well you know, because it could lead you into horrible areas of racism. Like you say, Medisranean people tend their brains stand to be like this, or Nordic people their brains stand to.

Be like this. Is that a real thing or is that made up by Nazis? The general story is, you know, Homo sapiens have only spread around the earth very recently. So you know, we originated in Africa about two hudred fift thousand years ago. We came out the top and half the people turned left and half turned right and became you know, Europeans or Asians. But on the inside, the organ that we have, that three pound mission control center hasn't changed. That's the same same thing. Why because two hundred fift thousand years just isn't enough time. In the same way that people's hearts and lungs and kidneys are the same as you go around the world. So while there's an enormous amount of difference between people, there aren't between groups of people. On average. You find this giant distribution everywhere.

Be like this. Is that a real thing or is that made up by Nazis? The general story is, you know, Homo sapiens have only spread around the earth very recently. So you know, we originated in Africa about two hudred fift thousand years ago. We came out the top and half the people turned left and half turned right and became you know, Europeans or Asians. But on the inside, the organ that we have, that three pound mission control center hasn't changed. That's the same same thing. Why because two hundred fift thousand years just isn't enough time. In the same way that people's hearts and lungs and kidneys are the same as you go around the world. So while there's an enormous amount of difference between people, there aren't between groups of people. On average. You find this giant distribution everywhere.

Well about the idea, I mean, I presume this study. Is it driven, I mean it's knowledge driven. I guess it's science. But is it a medical Is that what.

Well about the idea, I mean, I presume this study. Is it driven, I mean it's knowledge driven. I guess it's science. But is it a medical Is that what.

We're looking for?

We're looking for?

Is it to try and solve problem? Like one of this brings to mind is demanchia obviously in Alzheimer's, which is a real kind of cognitive problem.

Is it to try and solve problem? Like one of this brings to mind is demanchia obviously in Alzheimer's, which is a real kind of cognitive problem.

Yes, yeah, exactly right. So you know, the field of neuroscience traditionally studies diseases and disorders and what happens with the brain to make it change, for example, in cases of dementia. I also study that. A lot of the things I do have to do with those areas, but just personally, I got very interested in the topic of you know, how does the brain run in everyone under normal circumstances, and again, what are the differences between people? And by the way, how does it matter for society. So one of the things I do I run this Center for Neuroscience and Law, which is all the things that we're learning in neuroscience. How does this affect the legal system and how we think about things there.

Yes, yeah, exactly right. So you know, the field of neuroscience traditionally studies diseases and disorders and what happens with the brain to make it change, for example, in cases of dementia. I also study that. A lot of the things I do have to do with those areas, but just personally, I got very interested in the topic of you know, how does the brain run in everyone under normal circumstances, and again, what are the differences between people? And by the way, how does it matter for society. So one of the things I do I run this Center for Neuroscience and Law, which is all the things that we're learning in neuroscience. How does this affect the legal system and how we think about things there.

I mean, so if it there's a behavioral problem, for example, excuse me, if you find out that someone reacts a certain way being triggered by a certain stimulus. Like off the top of my head, I'm not a doctor and I don't know what I'm talking about, but say that I have a brain that if you touch me, I get very very upset. Is that something that you could bring into the legal world where you say, well, this person behaved very badly when they were being arrested, but now we found out they've got the type of brain if you touch them, they get very upset.

I mean, so if it there's a behavioral problem, for example, excuse me, if you find out that someone reacts a certain way being triggered by a certain stimulus. Like off the top of my head, I'm not a doctor and I don't know what I'm talking about, but say that I have a brain that if you touch me, I get very very upset. Is that something that you could bring into the legal world where you say, well, this person behaved very badly when they were being arrested, but now we found out they've got the type of brain if you touch them, they get very upset.

So here's the thing, great question. It turns out none of this lets people off the hook. So if you break the law, if you cross a sideal line, you still have to confront the legal system for it. But one of the things that tells us a lot about is new methods for rehabilitation. So what we do right now is a society and it is true around the world we treat incarceration as a one size fits all solution, but in fact, we know so much about the brain now that if you come in with this particular disorder where touching you on your shoulder, makes you react badly. You know, maybe there's something we can do to help you out, at least such that you know at least exactly what we're not gonna do. And then it turns out that you know, we might be able to help you for the next time. Now, again, it doesn't let people off the hook. It's not that you go without punishment, but that's that's the idea, and there are lots of ways we can do this. Just one example. I've been a strong advocate for having specialized mental health courts. So what we do right now as everyone goes to the same court system, but if somebody has mental illness, which is a you know, quite a high number of people with mental illness end up on the wrong side of legal system. You know, you have judges and juries that maybe don't know anything about let's say schizophrenia or take drug rehabilitation. Yeah, most judges and juries don't know a great deal about what options are available. So having specialized mental health courts, specialized drug courts, things like this are really helpful where you have people that expertise, they know the strategy is available.

So here's the thing, great question. It turns out none of this lets people off the hook. So if you break the law, if you cross a sideal line, you still have to confront the legal system for it. But one of the things that tells us a lot about is new methods for rehabilitation. So what we do right now is a society and it is true around the world we treat incarceration as a one size fits all solution, but in fact, we know so much about the brain now that if you come in with this particular disorder where touching you on your shoulder, makes you react badly. You know, maybe there's something we can do to help you out, at least such that you know at least exactly what we're not gonna do. And then it turns out that you know, we might be able to help you for the next time. Now, again, it doesn't let people off the hook. It's not that you go without punishment, but that's that's the idea, and there are lots of ways we can do this. Just one example. I've been a strong advocate for having specialized mental health courts. So what we do right now as everyone goes to the same court system, but if somebody has mental illness, which is a you know, quite a high number of people with mental illness end up on the wrong side of legal system. You know, you have judges and juries that maybe don't know anything about let's say schizophrenia or take drug rehabilitation. Yeah, most judges and juries don't know a great deal about what options are available. So having specialized mental health courts, specialized drug courts, things like this are really helpful where you have people that expertise, they know the strategy is available.

It's an interesting thing that you mentioned excuse me schizophrenia and drug rehabilitation, because schizophrenia. Remember I know nothing about this. You know, you're the brain. I'm pinky, right, So that my understanding of is or the tinium and I know about it is that schizophrenia is a condition which you I develop.

It's an interesting thing that you mentioned excuse me schizophrenia and drug rehabilitation, because schizophrenia. Remember I know nothing about this. You know, you're the brain. I'm pinky, right, So that my understanding of is or the tinium and I know about it is that schizophrenia is a condition which you I develop.

From a genetic position. Right. It's it's an illness that is born within you. Right. It has a strong generic component to it. It's not entirely can it be brought on by by outside stimulus. It certainly can be exacerbated and brought on early by things like drugs, for example. So for sure, example, this is a real problem with young people using marijuana, which has a much higher percentage of THHC now than it used to in earlier strains. A lot of young people are getting psychotic breaks as a result of that much higher percentage than used to.

From a genetic position. Right. It's it's an illness that is born within you. Right. It has a strong generic component to it. It's not entirely can it be brought on by by outside stimulus. It certainly can be exacerbated and brought on early by things like drugs, for example. So for sure, example, this is a real problem with young people using marijuana, which has a much higher percentage of THHC now than it used to in earlier strains. A lot of young people are getting psychotic breaks as a result of that much higher percentage than used to.

That happened to me when I took marijuana when I was when I was young, I stopped take it.

That happened to me when I took marijuana when I was when I was young, I stopped take it.

I started.

I started.

I took marimana when it was about eighteen through until I was about twenty, which is all terrible thing to do. And I didn't do tons of it, but there was at one point I took some and it it was one of the most horrendous experiences of my life from marijuana, and it's very hard to explain that to people who don't get affected.

I took marimana when it was about eighteen through until I was about twenty, which is all terrible thing to do. And I didn't do tons of it, but there was at one point I took some and it it was one of the most horrendous experiences of my life from marijuana, and it's very hard to explain that to people who don't get affected.

By it that way, right, right, exactly, And there's probably a genetic component to that in terms of who gets affected and who doesn't. But yeah, So back to your question about schizophrenia though, right, So, what were you going to So it's mostly genetic, but there are environmental things that exacerbate it.

By it that way, right, right, exactly, And there's probably a genetic component to that in terms of who gets affected and who doesn't. But yeah, So back to your question about schizophrenia though, right, So, what were you going to So it's mostly genetic, but there are environmental things that exacerbate it.

Well, I was going to ask you about drug addiction, which I think I don't know. Is that the same is it percent more percentage genetic for schizophrenia is for drug addiction? Is it more environmental and land behavior for drug and alcohol addiction? I can't imagine there is peer pressure to become schizophrenic, you know. It seems like it's almost accidental. Whereas I speak, is a sober alcoholic? I mean, I didn't say out for that to happen, you know, I say for the sober thing to happen, it basically, but it kind of crept up on me. Is there a genetic predisposition to both of these things? Is what I'm saying.

Well, I was going to ask you about drug addiction, which I think I don't know. Is that the same is it percent more percentage genetic for schizophrenia is for drug addiction? Is it more environmental and land behavior for drug and alcohol addiction? I can't imagine there is peer pressure to become schizophrenic, you know. It seems like it's almost accidental. Whereas I speak, is a sober alcoholic? I mean, I didn't say out for that to happen, you know, I say for the sober thing to happen, it basically, but it kind of crept up on me. Is there a genetic predisposition to both of these things? Is what I'm saying.

There is, although completely separate genetics on the Sudie. But yes, there is a genetic predisposition for addiction, for having an addictive personality. That is clearly a thing. But there are very few things really that can be separated cleanly into nature versus nurture, because there are influences on both. I'll just give you an example. It turns out that with back to schizophrenia, one of the things that influences whether someone has a psychotic break in part has to do with whether they are living in a place where they are in their culture, in their language, or whether they have immigrated somewhere else. And when you're living somewhere else, there are things like you know, you can't for example, you can't make jokes in your new language as well, or you can't fit in exactly as well. And it turns out that more people have psychotic breaks. In my book in Cognito, I talked about this as you know, one of the risks of getting schatphrenia is the color of your passport. So you know that's that's a surprising social aspect of it that people have discovered.

There is, although completely separate genetics on the Sudie. But yes, there is a genetic predisposition for addiction, for having an addictive personality. That is clearly a thing. But there are very few things really that can be separated cleanly into nature versus nurture, because there are influences on both. I'll just give you an example. It turns out that with back to schizophrenia, one of the things that influences whether someone has a psychotic break in part has to do with whether they are living in a place where they are in their culture, in their language, or whether they have immigrated somewhere else. And when you're living somewhere else, there are things like you know, you can't for example, you can't make jokes in your new language as well, or you can't fit in exactly as well. And it turns out that more people have psychotic breaks. In my book in Cognito, I talked about this as you know, one of the risks of getting schatphrenia is the color of your passport. So you know that's that's a surprising social aspect of it that people have discovered.

Well, that's that's kind of fascinating to me. Then does that does that lead you to study more men aloneness, because clearly there are things like it's not a man in aloneness, but clearly if someone is dyslexic, they're bre dyslexic. Right, it's not something you learn as a little baby, that's right. But if someone's left handed or right handed? I was, was that do you learn?

Well, that's that's kind of fascinating to me. Then does that does that lead you to study more men aloneness, because clearly there are things like it's not a man in aloneness, but clearly if someone is dyslexic, they're bre dyslexic. Right, it's not something you learn as a little baby, that's right. But if someone's left handed or right handed? I was, was that do you learn?

That? Is it?

That? Is it?

I mean, how much information you get right in the beginning, I think, is what I'm saying.

I mean, how much information you get right in the beginning, I think, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah, these are great questions. The fact is, when it comes to nature versus nurture, the answer is almost always both. There are a very tiny number of things that are one or the other. Four example, the first gene that was pulled for a disease was Huntington's disease, and everyone thought, great, if you have this gene, you're gonna get Huntington's that's it. And never thought this is going to be easy. But it turns out it's one of the few monogenetic diseases that exist, meaning you know, if you have this gene, blah blah, because everything turns out to be more complicated. Other diseases involve genetics. They have all lots of different genes, whole families of genes. We're still trying to get to the bottom of them. But also most of everything involves what's going on societally too. Let me give you an example of this. This came out some years ago. The question is are there genes for depression? Well, it turns out if you're a carrier of particular genes, the question is, okay, are you more likely to get depression? And the answer is that totally depends on the number of really traumatic life events you have. So let's say, you know, a terrible car accident or the death of a loved one, things like that. If you've had a lot of traumatic life experiences and you carry these genes, then your chance of getting depression is much higher than someone who's had the same number of traumatic life experiences but don't carry the genes. But if you don't have let's say any or just a few life experiences that are bad, your chances are no different than anyone else. So this is now we refer to this as gene times environment you know, gene x environment interactions. So it depends on both things.

Yeah, yeah, these are great questions. The fact is, when it comes to nature versus nurture, the answer is almost always both. There are a very tiny number of things that are one or the other. Four example, the first gene that was pulled for a disease was Huntington's disease, and everyone thought, great, if you have this gene, you're gonna get Huntington's that's it. And never thought this is going to be easy. But it turns out it's one of the few monogenetic diseases that exist, meaning you know, if you have this gene, blah blah, because everything turns out to be more complicated. Other diseases involve genetics. They have all lots of different genes, whole families of genes. We're still trying to get to the bottom of them. But also most of everything involves what's going on societally too. Let me give you an example of this. This came out some years ago. The question is are there genes for depression? Well, it turns out if you're a carrier of particular genes, the question is, okay, are you more likely to get depression? And the answer is that totally depends on the number of really traumatic life events you have. So let's say, you know, a terrible car accident or the death of a loved one, things like that. If you've had a lot of traumatic life experiences and you carry these genes, then your chance of getting depression is much higher than someone who's had the same number of traumatic life experiences but don't carry the genes. But if you don't have let's say any or just a few life experiences that are bad, your chances are no different than anyone else. So this is now we refer to this as gene times environment you know, gene x environment interactions. So it depends on both things.

So it's kind of like a recipe then, right, yeah, yeah, Like so I want to stay about like some some bit of this and some bit of that.

So it's kind of like a recipe then, right, yeah, yeah, Like so I want to stay about like some some bit of this and some bit of that.

You know, you get a little bit of sugar and a little bit of salt and a little.

You know, you get a little bit of sugar and a little bit of salt and a little.

Bit of trauma, and you get you know, you get a spatial thing, exactly.

Bit of trauma, and you get you know, you get a spatial thing, exactly.

And what this points to is the complexity of both biology and life, right you know, yeah, born, Yeah, things can happen to you that we're unexpected, and you can have genes that interact in unexpected ways.

And what this points to is the complexity of both biology and life, right you know, yeah, born, Yeah, things can happen to you that we're unexpected, and you can have genes that interact in unexpected ways.

Yes, And that's so I imagine those probably an almost infinite amount of variables and all these different things. So to depend on how someone is ever going to be, it just remains as elusive as ever then, right, that is exactly right.

Yes, And that's so I imagine those probably an almost infinite amount of variables and all these different things. So to depend on how someone is ever going to be, it just remains as elusive as ever then, right, that is exactly right.

So you take a movie like Minority Report, where the shtick was that you could predict who's going to commit a crime in the future. It's total fantasy and it'll never happen. In other words, people think, hey, as we get better with brain imaging or with AI, won't we get to that point someday? But the answer is never happened. Why Because your brain is changing and rewiring every second of your life depending on your interactions. So, for example, your brain and my brain are different than they were five minutes ago, just from conversing with each other. Right, So, and this is the notion of brain plasticity, which is that fundamentally, what mother nature has done is built a system that absorbs the world and is constantly reconfiguring itself.

So you take a movie like Minority Report, where the shtick was that you could predict who's going to commit a crime in the future. It's total fantasy and it'll never happen. In other words, people think, hey, as we get better with brain imaging or with AI, won't we get to that point someday? But the answer is never happened. Why Because your brain is changing and rewiring every second of your life depending on your interactions. So, for example, your brain and my brain are different than they were five minutes ago, just from conversing with each other. Right, So, and this is the notion of brain plasticity, which is that fundamentally, what mother nature has done is built a system that absorbs the world and is constantly reconfiguring itself.

So I kind of you mentioned the AI there, so I kind of find that fascinating because the idea I suppose of AI. Again, I know not of AI either, but the idea is that it mimics the landing pattern of a human brain, right, because that's all it can do, given the fact that's all we have to build it with.

So I kind of you mentioned the AI there, so I kind of find that fascinating because the idea I suppose of AI. Again, I know not of AI either, but the idea is that it mimics the landing pattern of a human brain, right, because that's all it can do, given the fact that's all we have to build it with.

Sort of, So this is the really interesting thing. So AI launched many decades ago, and the idea was, okay, look, the brain is super complicated, but fundamentally you've got these units, and you've got these connections between the units in the brain. These are neurons, and these are all the connections between the urts. So people said, look, what if we just make a cartoon version of this where you just have these you know, little units that we've got these connections that you are just changing the strength of those connections across the big network. So that's where artificial neural networks took off and went in that direction, and it turns out that's become incredibly successful. We've got this great renaissance going on of AI. But it's actually not that much like the human brain. It's it's quite different. So there are many many things that the human brain does that AI simply can't, and at least in its current architecture, you won't do anytime soon. I'll give you an example of that. But I'll also say really quickly that it's not to say that we can't build artificial neural networks that are just like the brain and someday, maybe five years now, maybe fifty years from now, do everything in brain does. But our current stuff like chat GPT, for example, does not have an internal model of the world. So if I ask GPT, hey, when Craig Ferguson walks into a room, does his nose come with him? It won't know the answer to that because it has no model of the world. You know, does does his spleen come with him?

Sort of, So this is the really interesting thing. So AI launched many decades ago, and the idea was, okay, look, the brain is super complicated, but fundamentally you've got these units, and you've got these connections between the units in the brain. These are neurons, and these are all the connections between the urts. So people said, look, what if we just make a cartoon version of this where you just have these you know, little units that we've got these connections that you are just changing the strength of those connections across the big network. So that's where artificial neural networks took off and went in that direction, and it turns out that's become incredibly successful. We've got this great renaissance going on of AI. But it's actually not that much like the human brain. It's it's quite different. So there are many many things that the human brain does that AI simply can't, and at least in its current architecture, you won't do anytime soon. I'll give you an example of that. But I'll also say really quickly that it's not to say that we can't build artificial neural networks that are just like the brain and someday, maybe five years now, maybe fifty years from now, do everything in brain does. But our current stuff like chat GPT, for example, does not have an internal model of the world. So if I ask GPT, hey, when Craig Ferguson walks into a room, does his nose come with him? It won't know the answer to that because it has no model of the world. You know, does does his spleen come with him?

Well?

Well?

How does it know? It doesn't? It why? Because the way chat GPT is trained, it's read everything in the world and it's just doing statistical games on what word is likely to come next. That's all GPT does. It's an enormous, enormous network yeah, that's just why I did ask.

How does it know? It doesn't? It why? Because the way chat GPT is trained, it's read everything in the world and it's just doing statistical games on what word is likely to come next. That's all GPT does. It's an enormous, enormous network yeah, that's just why I did ask.

I asked chat GPT to write me a short Craig ferguson stand up comedy routine. And you know, I feel like either I'm a terrible writer but my delivery is great, or just a a terrible comedian, or chat GPT has got a way to go yet, and it should maybe, you know, work on his material in some clubs.

I asked chat GPT to write me a short Craig ferguson stand up comedy routine. And you know, I feel like either I'm a terrible writer but my delivery is great, or just a a terrible comedian, or chat GPT has got a way to go yet, and it should maybe, you know, work on his material in some clubs.

So so, okay, this is a really good point. And chat GPT is terrible at humor, at making up new jokes, Okay. Why it's because it's just a statistical parent. And what it realizes is that humor is all about the violation of expectation, but it doesn't know how to violate it. Well, so if you ask it, tell me a joke about you know, three guys who walk into a bar and say, you know, and do blah blah blah. It'll say the first guy does this, the second guy does this, and the third guy does this, and it'll say something that doesn't make any sense because it knows the third thing is supposed to break the pattern, but it doesn't know how to do it in a funny way.

So so, okay, this is a really good point. And chat GPT is terrible at humor, at making up new jokes, Okay. Why it's because it's just a statistical parent. And what it realizes is that humor is all about the violation of expectation, but it doesn't know how to violate it. Well, so if you ask it, tell me a joke about you know, three guys who walk into a bar and say, you know, and do blah blah blah. It'll say the first guy does this, the second guy does this, and the third guy does this, and it'll say something that doesn't make any sense because it knows the third thing is supposed to break the pattern, but it doesn't know how to do it in a funny way.

I feel in Spain, I I think there's an argument to be made for having a comedy night in a club where comedians have to tell jokes written by computers.

I feel in Spain, I I think there's an argument to be made for having a comedy night in a club where comedians have to tell jokes written by computers.

And in fact, I am going to put that together as soon as possible.

And in fact, I am going to put that together as soon as possible.

So this is funny that you mentioned this because I'm actually working on on on a television documentary now. I'm writing this up with my colleagues. It's called Bits and Giggles, and it's exactly about this. It's about a comedian who goes on a road trip with no Yeah, We've actually built a little bot that does you know speech to text? It goes off to chat GPT and then does you know text to speech? So you can have a dialogue back and forth with this little bot. And the question is what does AI mean for us? Will it be funny it, can it take the place of community? Can it perform on stage with a comedian? Yeah?

So this is funny that you mentioned this because I'm actually working on on on a television documentary now. I'm writing this up with my colleagues. It's called Bits and Giggles, and it's exactly about this. It's about a comedian who goes on a road trip with no Yeah, We've actually built a little bot that does you know speech to text? It goes off to chat GPT and then does you know text to speech? So you can have a dialogue back and forth with this little bot. And the question is what does AI mean for us? Will it be funny it, can it take the place of community? Can it perform on stage with a comedian? Yeah?

I think I think it's quite interesting because I because of my own history with komedy, I love it and I feel that it's a very human connectivity thing. It's a very and it's odd way, it's very intimate thing, even although you know it's one person then an audience in the way that I do it anyway, and I wonder if that happens, then do you have your robot lover, do you have your robot husband, your robot wife, your robot spouse, your robot children?

I think I think it's quite interesting because I because of my own history with komedy, I love it and I feel that it's a very human connectivity thing. It's a very and it's odd way, it's very intimate thing, even although you know it's one person then an audience in the way that I do it anyway, and I wonder if that happens, then do you have your robot lover, do you have your robot husband, your robot wife, your robot spouse, your robot children?

I mean, is it? Is it possible? Yeah? So okay, so this is funny mite. So my wife has been joking about this for a long time. She's been joking about the five percent better David, by which she means, what does she have AI David that had all my good qualities but it never got distracted or angry or you know, we looked in my phone beeps or whatever. So, uh, we've talked about this a lot and what this means. And you know, the issue now is that lots of young people are getting AI girlfriends and to some lesser extent AI boyfriends girls getting that. In Japan, apparently this is becoming a bigger thing where people have these AI relationships. We can imagine perhaps the downsides of this, but I do want to note I think an upside for young people is you might be able to learn how to navigate relationships a little bit better, and you know, you kind of get your sandbox, your practice relationship, and if the AI it gives you good feedback, you might actually be a better person in relationships.

I mean, is it? Is it possible? Yeah? So okay, so this is funny mite. So my wife has been joking about this for a long time. She's been joking about the five percent better David, by which she means, what does she have AI David that had all my good qualities but it never got distracted or angry or you know, we looked in my phone beeps or whatever. So, uh, we've talked about this a lot and what this means. And you know, the issue now is that lots of young people are getting AI girlfriends and to some lesser extent AI boyfriends girls getting that. In Japan, apparently this is becoming a bigger thing where people have these AI relationships. We can imagine perhaps the downsides of this, but I do want to note I think an upside for young people is you might be able to learn how to navigate relationships a little bit better, and you know, you kind of get your sandbox, your practice relationship, and if the AI it gives you good feedback, you might actually be a better person in relationships.

Yeah, but then you don't get the requisite amount of trauma to make you human. I mean, no one wants to wish trauma and anyone but junior high school may be an essential component of making you a better persons.

Yeah, but then you don't get the requisite amount of trauma to make you human. I mean, no one wants to wish trauma and anyone but junior high school may be an essential component of making you a better persons.

It's an interesting conundrum. So I agree with you, and it turns out the way to do this, I think, is to make the AI bought be traumatic in the sense of, you know, if you say something wrong to it, it's not kind or something. You know, it gets its feelings hurt. Obviously it's just statistically impersonating this, but the point is instead of having an AI that just says, oh, that was so good, that was so funny and nice, instead it gives you real feedback, tough love.

It's an interesting conundrum. So I agree with you, and it turns out the way to do this, I think, is to make the AI bought be traumatic in the sense of, you know, if you say something wrong to it, it's not kind or something. You know, it gets its feelings hurt. Obviously it's just statistically impersonating this, but the point is instead of having an AI that just says, oh, that was so good, that was so funny and nice, instead it gives you real feedback, tough love.

And that that might actually work better than the parenting that my generation inflicted on the next generation, which I think was a little too positive. I don't know, something went wrong, So let me try it. Let me steer you around back to the brain and perception a little bit, because I'm fascinated by the idea in my own life, I'm fascinated by the idea of I think most people are What is all about was the meaning of life was the is there a god?

And that that might actually work better than the parenting that my generation inflicted on the next generation, which I think was a little too positive. I don't know, something went wrong, So let me try it. Let me steer you around back to the brain and perception a little bit, because I'm fascinated by the idea in my own life, I'm fascinated by the idea of I think most people are What is all about was the meaning of life was the is there a god?

You know?

You know?

And I wonder if in the study of the brain, which is you know, it's information central, it's information and control everything's passing through there, does it lead you in any direction personally for yourself? Does it lead you in an atheistic direction?

And I wonder if in the study of the brain, which is you know, it's information central, it's information and control everything's passing through there, does it lead you in any direction personally for yourself? Does it lead you in an atheistic direction?

Does it lead you in a faith based direction? But does it do anything to you personally? Sure? I mean, I've spent my life in science, and I feel like the main lesson that one can derive is to really understand the vastness of our ignorance. And so the more you reach down into science in the world and the cosmos, you find that there's so much that we don't know, we don't understand. So what does that meant for me? I am neither an atheist nor religious, because atheism, at least in its harshest form, in its strictest form, kind of often pretends, Hey, we've got this all figured out, we know what's going on here, but it's clear that we don't know what's going on here. On the flip side, all the traditional religions also pretend to have certainty about stuff, and they're all making it up. And so that puts me in the middle. I don't call my self agnostic, because agnostic often means I don't know if there's a guy with a beard on a cloud or not. But I call myself something else. I call myself a possibilion. And the idea with possibilianism is an active exploration of the possibility space, trying to figure out what is going on in this great, big cosmos that we're in. And so the idea is, you know, to take a scientific mindset to this question, which is to say, you know, science always has a broad table and allows lots of hypotheses on and says, okay, maybe this, maybe that cool. I'll let anything on the table. But you know, we use the tools of science to rule out parts of the possibility space. So if you come and say, hey, look, I think you know this thing is going on with crystals or this or yesp or whatever, we can actually test that and rule things out. And we and we that's what we do all the time. There's lots of stuff that's sort of off the table at this point. For example, you know, if you were to say, like you know, traditional religious books, hey the earth is six thousand years old. You know that's a problem because you know, the Japanese were, you know, making pottery six thousand years before that, and so that can't be true. So we can use the tools of science to open up new folds in the possibility space and to rule things out. But what it allows is a big space where we can shine a flashlight around and say, all right, look, we're not going to pretend that we know for sure that nothing exists, or that this particular made up story exists. Instead, we're going to explore. It's fascinating to me.

Does it lead you in a faith based direction? But does it do anything to you personally? Sure? I mean, I've spent my life in science, and I feel like the main lesson that one can derive is to really understand the vastness of our ignorance. And so the more you reach down into science in the world and the cosmos, you find that there's so much that we don't know, we don't understand. So what does that meant for me? I am neither an atheist nor religious, because atheism, at least in its harshest form, in its strictest form, kind of often pretends, Hey, we've got this all figured out, we know what's going on here, but it's clear that we don't know what's going on here. On the flip side, all the traditional religions also pretend to have certainty about stuff, and they're all making it up. And so that puts me in the middle. I don't call my self agnostic, because agnostic often means I don't know if there's a guy with a beard on a cloud or not. But I call myself something else. I call myself a possibilion. And the idea with possibilianism is an active exploration of the possibility space, trying to figure out what is going on in this great, big cosmos that we're in. And so the idea is, you know, to take a scientific mindset to this question, which is to say, you know, science always has a broad table and allows lots of hypotheses on and says, okay, maybe this, maybe that cool. I'll let anything on the table. But you know, we use the tools of science to rule out parts of the possibility space. So if you come and say, hey, look, I think you know this thing is going on with crystals or this or yesp or whatever, we can actually test that and rule things out. And we and we that's what we do all the time. There's lots of stuff that's sort of off the table at this point. For example, you know, if you were to say, like you know, traditional religious books, hey the earth is six thousand years old. You know that's a problem because you know, the Japanese were, you know, making pottery six thousand years before that, and so that can't be true. So we can use the tools of science to open up new folds in the possibility space and to rule things out. But what it allows is a big space where we can shine a flashlight around and say, all right, look, we're not going to pretend that we know for sure that nothing exists, or that this particular made up story exists. Instead, we're going to explore. It's fascinating to me.

I imagine at some point in your life you run across the varieties of religious experience.

I imagine at some point in your life you run across the varieties of religious experience.

The William James lechos, did you run under them? I have not read that. I've heard of it.

The William James lechos, did you run under them? I have not read that. I've heard of it.

Yeah, essentist because I'm kind of like claiming through it right now for I don't know. I guess that's what I do for entertainment. There was one of the lectures he gave when he talks about that when people believe something and it makes them feel good, then they are convinced it's true. He's talking and I thought, that's fascinating to me. I knew I was going to be talking to you today as well, and I thought that that's an interesting position to be in that the religious experience. If something a ceremony, or a story, or a particular piece of dogma gives you a sense of euphoria, is euphoria something that breeds very similitude? Is it something that you say, I feel good, therefore this must be true.

Yeah, essentist because I'm kind of like claiming through it right now for I don't know. I guess that's what I do for entertainment. There was one of the lectures he gave when he talks about that when people believe something and it makes them feel good, then they are convinced it's true. He's talking and I thought, that's fascinating to me. I knew I was going to be talking to you today as well, and I thought that that's an interesting position to be in that the religious experience. If something a ceremony, or a story, or a particular piece of dogma gives you a sense of euphoria, is euphoria something that breeds very similitude? Is it something that you say, I feel good, therefore this must be true.

Yeah. I think there are lots of reasons why people believe things about any religious story. One of them, of course, is that often people don't apply real rigor in what they call true or not true in the first place. But secondly, there's a huge social component to this. If your friends, your family, or loved ones go and they pray to this deity at this situation, then people feel like, hey, you know, that's something that is meaningful to me too. So I think there are a lot of reasons why people believe in things. One of them is that people, you know, don't necessarily apply rigorous tools when they're deciding what to believe or not. But more than that, there's a huge social component to religion or faith of any sort, which is to say, if your friends and loved ones believe in a particular thing, we tend to be compelled that way. And if you live in a place where everyone around you believes whatever deity and whatever crazy thing. Then you grow up that way and you think, of, of course I must be true because these people that I love and respect they believe that. So there are many different things that compel people. And you know, maybe someone says, Okay, I'm going to finally break from my religion and they go to some other religion and whatever they're you know, attractive people there, or a compelling narrator who tells them something, and so they feel like, hey, that fits with what I need in my life. That's the message I need right now. But none of this, Yeah, none of this qualifies as good reasons to believe. It's just why people believe.

Yeah. I think there are lots of reasons why people believe things about any religious story. One of them, of course, is that often people don't apply real rigor in what they call true or not true in the first place. But secondly, there's a huge social component to this. If your friends, your family, or loved ones go and they pray to this deity at this situation, then people feel like, hey, you know, that's something that is meaningful to me too. So I think there are a lot of reasons why people believe in things. One of them is that people, you know, don't necessarily apply rigorous tools when they're deciding what to believe or not. But more than that, there's a huge social component to religion or faith of any sort, which is to say, if your friends and loved ones believe in a particular thing, we tend to be compelled that way. And if you live in a place where everyone around you believes whatever deity and whatever crazy thing. Then you grow up that way and you think, of, of course I must be true because these people that I love and respect they believe that. So there are many different things that compel people. And you know, maybe someone says, Okay, I'm going to finally break from my religion and they go to some other religion and whatever they're you know, attractive people there, or a compelling narrator who tells them something, and so they feel like, hey, that fits with what I need in my life. That's the message I need right now. But none of this, Yeah, none of this qualifies as good reasons to believe. It's just why people believe.

It's interesting though, because the only the ultimate measuring tool that you have in front of you, or that you have to use, is in fact your own perception and the perception of your contemporaries. Right, So if you set up even the most rigorous academic test, you're still looking at it with your eyes and thinking about it with your brain.

It's interesting though, because the only the ultimate measuring tool that you have in front of you, or that you have to use, is in fact your own perception and the perception of your contemporaries. Right, So if you set up even the most rigorous academic test, you're still looking at it with your eyes and thinking about it with your brain.

Don't I don't think so. I think that we can actually use the tools of science really. So yeah, So, for example, I mentioned the way that science opens up new folds in the possibility space as we discover things, for example, about the size of the I mean, look, you know, poor you know, Galileo had to spend the last part of his life imprisoned because he suggested that maybe the Earth is going around the Sun and not vice versa. But as we discover more and more about the cosmos and understand the absolute enormity of it, and that our galaxy has one hundred billion stars, any number you know, any one of which has number of planets rolling around it, and and our galaxy is one of one hundred billion galaxies in the cosmos. And as we as we understand these things, I think that opens us up to a very different kind of faith, so that we don't have to think about, Okay, my little local deity can beat your local deity and so on. First of all, science opens up these things. But then the other thing I mention is that science rules things out, you know, whether that's the age of the Earth or the idea that you know, your deity, you know, did some little things, some little magic trick, and you can rule that stuff in or out. I think we probably have a very different perspective on the world than we did even three hundred years ago. When people consider it, Hey, do I think this deity represents the truth? And and and you know, for example, we're so global now that we see there are two thousand religions on the planet, and so it becomes harder to believe, Oh, the thing that I grew up with has to be the right one, because you now see that there are two thousand other versions of this stuff. So anyway, all these things point to as we become smarter as a society, I think we can develop notions that maybe are more appropriate to a deeper view along the lines of what you were saying.

Don't I don't think so. I think that we can actually use the tools of science really. So yeah, So, for example, I mentioned the way that science opens up new folds in the possibility space as we discover things, for example, about the size of the I mean, look, you know, poor you know, Galileo had to spend the last part of his life imprisoned because he suggested that maybe the Earth is going around the Sun and not vice versa. But as we discover more and more about the cosmos and understand the absolute enormity of it, and that our galaxy has one hundred billion stars, any number you know, any one of which has number of planets rolling around it, and and our galaxy is one of one hundred billion galaxies in the cosmos. And as we as we understand these things, I think that opens us up to a very different kind of faith, so that we don't have to think about, Okay, my little local deity can beat your local deity and so on. First of all, science opens up these things. But then the other thing I mention is that science rules things out, you know, whether that's the age of the Earth or the idea that you know, your deity, you know, did some little things, some little magic trick, and you can rule that stuff in or out. I think we probably have a very different perspective on the world than we did even three hundred years ago. When people consider it, Hey, do I think this deity represents the truth? And and and you know, for example, we're so global now that we see there are two thousand religions on the planet, and so it becomes harder to believe, Oh, the thing that I grew up with has to be the right one, because you now see that there are two thousand other versions of this stuff. So anyway, all these things point to as we become smarter as a society, I think we can develop notions that maybe are more appropriate to a deeper view along the lines of what you were saying.

I remember before my first kid was born, I said to the obstetrician, how much do you actually know about what pregnancy was going on in pregnancy? And she said, if you'd ask me that question ten years ago, i'd have said about fifty percent. But we've learned so much that now I would say about twenty five percent.

I remember before my first kid was born, I said to the obstetrician, how much do you actually know about what pregnancy was going on in pregnancy? And she said, if you'd ask me that question ten years ago, i'd have said about fifty percent. But we've learned so much that now I would say about twenty five percent.

Excellent, very good.

Excellent, very good.

And I think that that that's a fascinating though, because if you follow the logical, mathematical root of that, literally, the more you know, the less you know.

And I think that that that's a fascinating though, because if you follow the logical, mathematical root of that, literally, the more you know, the less you know.

Yeah, that's exact. I mean, there used to be people called pansophists, which meant, you know, someone who knows everything to be known. And you know, back in ancient Greece it was plausible to have somebody who was a Panzifist, and now it's totally impossible. It has been for centuries. So you know, that's lovely. And what I love, by the way, about this moment in time right now, is we've got AI that has consumed you know, every single thing ever written by humans, and so that provides a whole new way of interacting and learning human kind's knowledge, which is a sphere that is now much too large for any of us to ever hope to even get into. But what we can do is find some doorway that interests us and enter the sphere that way, and by talking to the AI just you know, learn all about the world by asking questions that are relevant to us. And I think this is going to really change our educational systems for schooling, because right now, you know, kids in classrooms, it's too fast for half the kids, too slow for half the kids. But we can finally achieve this dream of real individualized education where everyone you know has an AI tutor, which is, by the way, how it used to go. You know, Alexander the Great was tutored by Aristotle, and you know you'd sit there and have conversations. And I think we'll return to that. But what that's I mean, that's fantastic for learning.

Yeah, that's exact. I mean, there used to be people called pansophists, which meant, you know, someone who knows everything to be known. And you know, back in ancient Greece it was plausible to have somebody who was a Panzifist, and now it's totally impossible. It has been for centuries. So you know, that's lovely. And what I love, by the way, about this moment in time right now, is we've got AI that has consumed you know, every single thing ever written by humans, and so that provides a whole new way of interacting and learning human kind's knowledge, which is a sphere that is now much too large for any of us to ever hope to even get into. But what we can do is find some doorway that interests us and enter the sphere that way, and by talking to the AI just you know, learn all about the world by asking questions that are relevant to us. And I think this is going to really change our educational systems for schooling, because right now, you know, kids in classrooms, it's too fast for half the kids, too slow for half the kids. But we can finally achieve this dream of real individualized education where everyone you know has an AI tutor, which is, by the way, how it used to go. You know, Alexander the Great was tutored by Aristotle, and you know you'd sit there and have conversations. And I think we'll return to that. But what that's I mean, that's fantastic for learning.

But I mean what we what we were, you're talking about as well, even we were talking about religion. Is that your religion or your propensity to certain depressions or or or.

But I mean what we what we were, you're talking about as well, even we were talking about religion. Is that your religion or your propensity to certain depressions or or or.

Different traumas.

Different traumas.

All of that's to do with socialization and to have an AI a certain point, I have to ask myself. I mean, I'm just speaking.

All of that's to do with socialization and to have an AI a certain point, I have to ask myself. I mean, I'm just speaking.

I love that. What's the point if it just mimics everything that we've already go. We've ready to go all that, So okay, great. Those are two types of questions. So as far as socialization, I think that's what school will become. I think you know, you're exactly right that that's such an important part of growing up. And this was the terrible thing for parents about COVID is seeing your young children having to stay home and not wrestling and rolling around and jumping on trampolines with other kids. So we'll always have that, but school will become more about that and instead of having the teacher drone on to the kids. It'll be you know, the kids put on headphones. Do that, at least as it stands. Now, what humans are really great at doing is creativity and also understanding which creative moves matter. So, for example, I can say to the AI, hate generate one hundred pictures of you know, Craig sitting in an avocado chair holding a poodle, and it'll do that. But it doesn't know which of those pictures are better than another. But a human looks at and says, oh, Craig, that's a really good one, and that one over these staying over here or whatever. And so humans are actually necessary, at least at the moment for doing this next step for figuring out Okay, I can ask, I can query the AI, but what do I do with that? What's the next step. I'll give you a specific example science. So AI can tell me incredible things like, hey, I need to understand you know, these facts that are scattered around all these different journal papers across fifty years. Give me a summary of this. It's trivial for it to do that, and that's super useful. But what it can't do is generate new sorts of science in the way that. Let's say Albert Einstein says, Okay, what if I were writing on a photon of lightweight? What would that be like if we were moving into speed of light? And he thinks through that, he says, oh, and he comes up with the special theory of relativity. That's progress. He wants to know about prize for this sort of stuff. That's the kind of things that at least at the moment, AI does not do. So in answer your question, the ultimate perfect thing is if we have AI co pilots with us who can tell us lots of information, and then we use our creativity and our extrapolation and simulation of possible futures to put that together to make to make something that's the next step for our civilization.

I love that. What's the point if it just mimics everything that we've already go. We've ready to go all that, So okay, great. Those are two types of questions. So as far as socialization, I think that's what school will become. I think you know, you're exactly right that that's such an important part of growing up. And this was the terrible thing for parents about COVID is seeing your young children having to stay home and not wrestling and rolling around and jumping on trampolines with other kids. So we'll always have that, but school will become more about that and instead of having the teacher drone on to the kids. It'll be you know, the kids put on headphones. Do that, at least as it stands. Now, what humans are really great at doing is creativity and also understanding which creative moves matter. So, for example, I can say to the AI, hate generate one hundred pictures of you know, Craig sitting in an avocado chair holding a poodle, and it'll do that. But it doesn't know which of those pictures are better than another. But a human looks at and says, oh, Craig, that's a really good one, and that one over these staying over here or whatever. And so humans are actually necessary, at least at the moment for doing this next step for figuring out Okay, I can ask, I can query the AI, but what do I do with that? What's the next step. I'll give you a specific example science. So AI can tell me incredible things like, hey, I need to understand you know, these facts that are scattered around all these different journal papers across fifty years. Give me a summary of this. It's trivial for it to do that, and that's super useful. But what it can't do is generate new sorts of science in the way that. Let's say Albert Einstein says, Okay, what if I were writing on a photon of lightweight? What would that be like if we were moving into speed of light? And he thinks through that, he says, oh, and he comes up with the special theory of relativity. That's progress. He wants to know about prize for this sort of stuff. That's the kind of things that at least at the moment, AI does not do. So in answer your question, the ultimate perfect thing is if we have AI co pilots with us who can tell us lots of information, and then we use our creativity and our extrapolation and simulation of possible futures to put that together to make to make something that's the next step for our civilization.

All right, So if that can happen, and let's imagine that it can, is there a possibility the certain point, if we can find the genetic and chemical recipe for any individual's personality, that that can be I'm asking the singularity question. Can you put the mind and the soul of a cognizant, coherent santient being inside something which is digital?

All right, So if that can happen, and let's imagine that it can, is there a possibility the certain point, if we can find the genetic and chemical recipe for any individual's personality, that that can be I'm asking the singularity question. Can you put the mind and the soul of a cognizant, coherent santient being inside something which is digital?

Okay, so that's the question of can you upload your brain? So you don't have to die. Here's how it would work. It would work by taking a scan of your brain at the kind of resolution that we can't even dream of now. Right now with our very fancy brain imaging what we call fMRI functional magnetic residence imaging is very crude. Okay, but cut to one hundred years from now, our great grand children are sitting around having a podcast with each other, and the question is, could you scan a brain at the resolution where you know every single neuron and all the connections and perhaps everything going on inside the neuron and reproduce that algorithm on a computer? The answer is probably probably you could do that, and therefore you could download it and run Craig or Craig's great grandchild such that you really couldn't tell a difference. So I say to the computer, Hey, Craig's great grandchild, are you in there? And she says, yeah, I'm here, what's up? And you know, we have a conversation that's fascinating to me.

Okay, so that's the question of can you upload your brain? So you don't have to die. Here's how it would work. It would work by taking a scan of your brain at the kind of resolution that we can't even dream of now. Right now with our very fancy brain imaging what we call fMRI functional magnetic residence imaging is very crude. Okay, but cut to one hundred years from now, our great grand children are sitting around having a podcast with each other, and the question is, could you scan a brain at the resolution where you know every single neuron and all the connections and perhaps everything going on inside the neuron and reproduce that algorithm on a computer? The answer is probably probably you could do that, and therefore you could download it and run Craig or Craig's great grandchild such that you really couldn't tell a difference. So I say to the computer, Hey, Craig's great grandchild, are you in there? And she says, yeah, I'm here, what's up? And you know, we have a conversation that's fascinating to me.

So the idea that is, I mean, I wouldn't hold you to it, but sort of theoretically, sort of kind of maybe.

So the idea that is, I mean, I wouldn't hold you to it, but sort of theoretically, sort of kind of maybe.

Oh, theoretically yes. And it's because as best we can tell this is just a machine in here. It's the most complex sophisticated thing that we have ever come across in our universe, the human brain. But it's just a machine. It's just built out of eighty six billion neurons and about the same number of glial cells, and it's you know, every neuron in your head is popping off the little signals tends to hundreds of times per second, So it's unbelievably complex. You've got something like two hundred trillion connections between these neurons, and as I said, it's it's like a forest that's re configuring with every experience that you have. So it's unbelievably complex. But it's a machine. And so there's no reason that we should not be able to reproduce that on silicon or whatever I mean. In theory, I could reproduce your brain out of beer cans and tennis balls.