This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway, come and see me live on the Pants on Fire Tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now, and we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you on the road, My DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. My guest in the podcast today I've been aware of for a long time. His band We're on my old late night show when it was so well, you'll hear this story anyway.

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway, come and see me live on the Pants on Fire Tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now, and we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you on the road, My DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. My guest in the podcast today I've been aware of for a long time. His band We're on my old late night show when it was so well, you'll hear this story anyway.

Please welcome Damien Kulash from Okaygo. Damien.

Please welcome Damien Kulash from Okaygo. Damien.

First of all, let me apologize. Don't get too close to your microphone because I'm feeling but a little poorly. I've got I think I've got a cold, but it could be leprosy.

First of all, let me apologize. Don't get too close to your microphone because I'm feeling but a little poorly. I've got I think I've got a cold, but it could be leprosy.

It could be anything. I don't know.

It could be anything. I don't know.

We've got many symptoms. Start with a code.

We've got many symptoms. Start with a code.

How are you you? Okay?

How are you you? Okay?

I'm well, I'm better than I'm better than that. I don't think I'm I have leprosy?

I'm well, I'm better than I'm better than that. I don't think I'm I have leprosy?

Okay, well that's good. Are you a hypochondriact? And anyway, No, not particularly many artists are. You know. I think it's I think it's something to do with a creative mind getting bored and you go.

Okay, well that's good. Are you a hypochondriact? And anyway, No, not particularly many artists are. You know. I think it's I think it's something to do with a creative mind getting bored and you go.

It could be we're.

It could be we're.

Just the delicacy of our sensitive little souls.

Just the delicacy of our sensitive little souls.

Now I see, we're we're going to embark on an existential crisis. Hey, I know that you did the old late night show like years ago, right, Yeah, I was doing Late Night and it was right at this It was before this two shell pass.

Now I see, we're we're going to embark on an existential crisis. Hey, I know that you did the old late night show like years ago, right, Yeah, I was doing Late Night and it was right at this It was before this two shell pass.

It was before I mean it.

It was before I mean it.

Was really it was quite early, right, long time ago. Yes, it was when the show was so small. The band had to play and then you guys had to go away, and then we put the late night thing in and then we we shot it out of order so that the band played first. That was right, right, That was you were doing that? That sounds right to me.

Was really it was quite early, right, long time ago. Yes, it was when the show was so small. The band had to play and then you guys had to go away, and then we put the late night thing in and then we we shot it out of order so that the band played first. That was right, right, That was you were doing that? That sounds right to me.

Yeah, I've had kids done sense, So I don't remember anything.

Yeah, I've had kids done sense, So I don't remember anything.

Yeah, that's interesting, so have I And I remember Patchy Bits, who were a great band.

Yeah, that's interesting, so have I And I remember Patchy Bits, who were a great band.

Patchy Bits they were they were really lovely.

Patchy Bits they were they were really lovely.

But listen, I think that was interesting because I mean, obviously I've known of the band, and even right at the very beginning of Late Night, I always kind of like I would, I will say yes or no to the bands, and so I was very familiar with Okay go very early, or I thought early on. I mean imagine it was not early on for you, but since then the kind of performance nature of what you do, because you're not like a normal rock star. First of all, I can see you're in your kitchen. That's and you have a throw blank on your sofa. This is true, This is true. This is not my own home, but it's not no.

But listen, I think that was interesting because I mean, obviously I've known of the band, and even right at the very beginning of Late Night, I always kind of like I would, I will say yes or no to the bands, and so I was very familiar with Okay go very early, or I thought early on. I mean imagine it was not early on for you, but since then the kind of performance nature of what you do, because you're not like a normal rock star. First of all, I can see you're in your kitchen. That's and you have a throw blank on your sofa. This is true, This is true. This is not my own home, but it's not no.

Wow, there's been fires in Los Angeles as Oh my god.

Wow, there's been fires in Los Angeles as Oh my god.

Did you get evacuated? Did you get into trouble?

Did you get evacuated? Did you get into trouble?

I did? I you know, I don't. My home is still there and is safe. But my kids' school is very close to where the fires were. And while I am not a hypochondriactor, and I'm very cautious with their exposure to heavy metals and flying asbestos and so forth.

I did? I you know, I don't. My home is still there and is safe. But my kids' school is very close to where the fires were. And while I am not a hypochondriactor, and I'm very cautious with their exposure to heavy metals and flying asbestos and so forth.

That's that's exactly what I fail about it.

That's that's exactly what I fail about it.

Because I lived in Ala for years and years and years and years, and I still have a lot of friends there who have moved out. I would have been I would be rified now to just be there breathing that stuff.

Because I lived in Ala for years and years and years and years, and I still have a lot of friends there who have moved out. I would have been I would be rified now to just be there breathing that stuff.

And it is nasty stuff. And there's a big push towards normalcy, which I completely understand. Like everybody wants life to keep going, and so the fastest you can open, you know, the faster you can open the schools, the faster you can get everybody back into their sort of like routine, the better. But we are opting out of that for a little while we're in Santa Barbara because it is it feels too toxic.

And it is nasty stuff. And there's a big push towards normalcy, which I completely understand. Like everybody wants life to keep going, and so the fastest you can open, you know, the faster you can open the schools, the faster you can get everybody back into their sort of like routine, the better. But we are opting out of that for a little while we're in Santa Barbara because it is it feels too toxic.

Yeah, I would be totally doing that as well. I'm in London and I've just been on the Tube, the London Underground.

Yeah, I would be totally doing that as well. I'm in London and I've just been on the Tube, the London Underground.

That's pretty toxic too. Actually, I think that's where I live, where am I go my.

That's pretty toxic too. Actually, I think that's where I live, where am I go my.

Cold so much much more romantic type of toxic it is.

Cold so much much more romantic type of toxic it is.

It's a little bit like it's toxic, but it's also a Richard Curtis movie. You can see lots of little rich of Curtiss movies going on all over the subway. I think, by the way, that would be a good place for an okay go video would be the subway jumping leaping across trains instead of.

It's a little bit like it's toxic, but it's also a Richard Curtis movie. You can see lots of little rich of Curtiss movies going on all over the subway. I think, by the way, that would be a good place for an okay go video would be the subway jumping leaping across trains instead of.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why we haven't.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why we haven't.

Fun of it?

Fun of it?

Are you still doing the super kind of complicated and like performance are videos are?

Are you still doing the super kind of complicated and like performance are videos are?

Yes? We just released a new video two weeks ago last week the week before, yeah, two weeks ago, which is it features sixty four clips on sixty four phones, all laid out on the floor as a mosaic.

Yes? We just released a new video two weeks ago last week the week before, yeah, two weeks ago, which is it features sixty four clips on sixty four phones, all laid out on the floor as a mosaic.

I have to say, I haven't seen it yet. What's what's the name of the song that goes with it?

I have to say, I haven't seen it yet. What's what's the name of the song that goes with it?

It's called a Stone only rolls Downhill?

It's called a Stone only rolls Downhill?

Okay? And it is the opening lines are I wish I could say, would all be all right?

Okay? And it is the opening lines are I wish I could say, would all be all right?

That you're concerned about the state of the I mean, I think everybody's concerned about the state of the world.

That you're concerned about the state of the I mean, I think everybody's concerned about the state of the world.

Are you not concerned?

Are you not concerned?

Well, you know, I haven't.

Well, you know, I haven't.

No, I'll tell you I've been I've been bored in the urself of everyone who listens to this podcast. But I've been reading a lot of historical novels, particularly the work of gor Vidal, and it's been bad for a long time. I feel like this is not it's always crazy. I feel like I think like I'm getting a sense, a little bit of a sense of perspective. Of course, I'm worried, but if you look at it, it's it's always been pretty scary for humans on this planet.

No, I'll tell you I've been I've been bored in the urself of everyone who listens to this podcast. But I've been reading a lot of historical novels, particularly the work of gor Vidal, and it's been bad for a long time. I feel like this is not it's always crazy. I feel like I think like I'm getting a sense, a little bit of a sense of perspective. Of course, I'm worried, but if you look at it, it's it's always been pretty scary for humans on this planet.

Yeah, you think it's worse, I do, really, I think it is. I think it is more. I think that the things we are, I think we're at some tipping points into some some places we may not be able to return from as easily. I think it is.

Yeah, you think it's worse, I do, really, I think it is. I think it is more. I think that the things we are, I think we're at some tipping points into some some places we may not be able to return from as easily. I think it is.

I think you're right, that has always been bad, and it has always been crazy.

I think you're right, that has always been bad, and it has always been crazy.

Uh. But I but I think that the I am very worried about the governmental changes happening in the US right now. That having a you know, a president.

Uh. But I but I think that the I am very worried about the governmental changes happening in the US right now. That having a you know, a president.

That acts more like a fearer is not great.

That acts more like a fearer is not great.

And and I do think that that that climate stuff is passing tipping points that really change the way humans live. I don't necessarily think like I'm not running from a specific fire as much as I am the toxicity that comes after that and the social changes that come after that. You know, I think that a lot of what's happening, you know, I think the let's see what's the right is. I think the war in Syria is really a climate war. I think that the migration problems at the southern border are really are really climate problems that when you have the reason you have MS thirteen in taking over cities in South America is because there's an influx of people from agricultural areas that are no longer used for agriculture because they've been in drop for so long. So it seems like a social problem at the border of the US, but it's actually a climate problem globally. So that's what I'm worried about.

And and I do think that that that climate stuff is passing tipping points that really change the way humans live. I don't necessarily think like I'm not running from a specific fire as much as I am the toxicity that comes after that and the social changes that come after that. You know, I think that a lot of what's happening, you know, I think the let's see what's the right is. I think the war in Syria is really a climate war. I think that the migration problems at the southern border are really are really climate problems that when you have the reason you have MS thirteen in taking over cities in South America is because there's an influx of people from agricultural areas that are no longer used for agriculture because they've been in drop for so long. So it seems like a social problem at the border of the US, but it's actually a climate problem globally. So that's what I'm worried about.

Well, what would you do?

Well, what would you do?

You have any ideas about how you think a solution may be achieved?

You have any ideas about how you think a solution may be achieved?

You just write pop songs. That's the way to do it.

You just write pop songs. That's the way to do it.

But I think it's kind of interesting because I think nobody is worried about I mean, any sentient being. I think it has to be worried about climate change because it's it's the planet on which we live. But the the idea that I I've had this discussion with my kids, who are a bit probably a bit older than yours, I think, but that I feel at this point, you know, all of our frothy entreaties to you know, get your grandma to separate our you know, plastic bag from the you know, the.

But I think it's kind of interesting because I think nobody is worried about I mean, any sentient being. I think it has to be worried about climate change because it's it's the planet on which we live. But the the idea that I I've had this discussion with my kids, who are a bit probably a bit older than yours, I think, but that I feel at this point, you know, all of our frothy entreaties to you know, get your grandma to separate our you know, plastic bag from the you know, the.

Eggs is not It's not gonna work.

Eggs is not It's not gonna work.

And I think at this point we've now reached a it's an engineering problem. We have to actually we have to actually intervene in some way. And I think that's kind of that's kind of fascinating to me because I feel that nothing's going to change until it becomes profitable. I feel like climate change has to become profitable for someone to say, well, we'll pay you five hundred billion dollars to do some cloud seeding and bring down the temperature of the North Atlantic by three degrees, and then someone will do it because it can be done.

And I think at this point we've now reached a it's an engineering problem. We have to actually we have to actually intervene in some way. And I think that's kind of that's kind of fascinating to me because I feel that nothing's going to change until it becomes profitable. I feel like climate change has to become profitable for someone to say, well, we'll pay you five hundred billion dollars to do some cloud seeding and bring down the temperature of the North Atlantic by three degrees, and then someone will do it because it can be done.

I hope you're what do you think then?

I hope you're what do you think then?

I think that solar is already cheaper than than fossil fuels, and yet we keep opening Newel's and trying to dig more.

I think that solar is already cheaper than than fossil fuels, and yet we keep opening Newel's and trying to dig more.

You know, I think that the I agree is systemic.

You know, I think that the I agree is systemic.

I do not think that the that that recycling our you know that I don't. I don't think this choice should be on the consumer. I don't think it is a consumer choice. You can't expect everybody in the world to make the best decision for the planet. What you need to do is is actually make good structural decisions for the planet. I am not super bullish on geoengineering stuff. I'm but I'm also not a scientist. I just sort of feel like that those geoengineering solutions are often used as a sort of solve for like, I know it's really bad, but we can fix this, and sort of like, no, the thing we should do stop drilling, like stop stop burning oil.

I do not think that the that that recycling our you know that I don't. I don't think this choice should be on the consumer. I don't think it is a consumer choice. You can't expect everybody in the world to make the best decision for the planet. What you need to do is is actually make good structural decisions for the planet. I am not super bullish on geoengineering stuff. I'm but I'm also not a scientist. I just sort of feel like that those geoengineering solutions are often used as a sort of solve for like, I know it's really bad, but we can fix this, and sort of like, no, the thing we should do stop drilling, like stop stop burning oil.

That is the obvious thing to do, and yeah, I know that.

That is the obvious thing to do, and yeah, I know that.

I well, we could easily find you know, someone else who could see here's why we mustn't stop drilling oil, and now we must have to. Yeah, I mean, there is such a it's an argument which is it seems like one of those arguments where you can't persuade anyone, do you know what I mean. It's like people dig in exactly, and then it's like and I feel like the nature of argument has become a.

I well, we could easily find you know, someone else who could see here's why we mustn't stop drilling oil, and now we must have to. Yeah, I mean, there is such a it's an argument which is it seems like one of those arguments where you can't persuade anyone, do you know what I mean. It's like people dig in exactly, and then it's like and I feel like the nature of argument has become a.

Little a little difficult as well.

Little a little difficult as well.

It's like it's not just about climate change, it's about societal change, in the sense that the difficulty in argument now is that you don't really you don't really discuss to move forward it's not socratic. It's more about well, what's your position. Well, here's my position, and here's why your position is wrong, and here's why my position is right.

It's like it's not just about climate change, it's about societal change, in the sense that the difficulty in argument now is that you don't really you don't really discuss to move forward it's not socratic. It's more about well, what's your position. Well, here's my position, and here's why your position is wrong, and here's why my position is right.

And it doesn't seem to move. I think it's a real gridlock.

And it doesn't seem to move. I think it's a real gridlock.

It's I think that's that's that's a systemic problem with humans.

It's I think that's that's that's a systemic problem with humans.

As well, I think, isn't it.

As well, I think, isn't it.

I believe that it is.

I believe that it is.

So maybe what I'm trying to get to is maybe writing pop songs is the right way to go, because if you can in some way through art, maybe not only pop songs, but pop songs and literature and art and entertainment and all of the things that artists do, perhaps that can help people kind of break the logjam of This is my position and I will never change from it, because you know, one of the great things I think, one of the great movies I think to watch for this is Dirty Dancing. You ever seen a movie dirty Of course, you've seen a movie Dirty Dancing, and you watch that movie. If you watch that movie when you're fifteen, or you watch that movie when you're fifty and you have children, it's.

So maybe what I'm trying to get to is maybe writing pop songs is the right way to go, because if you can in some way through art, maybe not only pop songs, but pop songs and literature and art and entertainment and all of the things that artists do, perhaps that can help people kind of break the logjam of This is my position and I will never change from it, because you know, one of the great things I think, one of the great movies I think to watch for this is Dirty Dancing. You ever seen a movie dirty Of course, you've seen a movie Dirty Dancing, and you watch that movie. If you watch that movie when you're fifteen, or you watch that movie when you're fifty and you have children, it's.

A completely it's completely different movie. You're like, wait a minute, that dad is right?

A completely it's completely different movie. You're like, wait a minute, that dad is right?

You know, you know, and she should be put in the corner and age is Patrick Sweezey with that.

You know, you know, and she should be put in the corner and age is Patrick Sweezey with that.

This is what it's all about, what's going on here?

This is what it's all about, what's going on here?

But I think perspective is an artist's job, right, Yeah, it is. That's why I kind of I loved about the first Mad Giant performance piece that I saw of yours with. I saw the very famous Trademill video. It was very fun, thank you. But the Rube Goldberg machine for this too shall pass. I feel like that must have taken about four or five years together. I mean, it was an enormously complex Did you actually get it in one take?

But I think perspective is an artist's job, right, Yeah, it is. That's why I kind of I loved about the first Mad Giant performance piece that I saw of yours with. I saw the very famous Trademill video. It was very fun, thank you. But the Rube Goldberg machine for this too shall pass. I feel like that must have taken about four or five years together. I mean, it was an enormously complex Did you actually get it in one take?

Eventually we did what you actually see.

Eventually we did what you actually see.

It goes from Take A to Take B back to Take A because there's a section of that where we're going down an elevator shaft following a bunch of fluids that sort of rise and fall on different you know, as as the machine trips itself, and the incredible, incredible cameraman Mick Waugh, who was who was doing this amazing job filming that did in the one perfect take otherwise did miss the level of the liquid in there for a second, so we had to we had to sort of stitch in take b.

It goes from Take A to Take B back to Take A because there's a section of that where we're going down an elevator shaft following a bunch of fluids that sort of rise and fall on different you know, as as the machine trips itself, and the incredible, incredible cameraman Mick Waugh, who was who was doing this amazing job filming that did in the one perfect take otherwise did miss the level of the liquid in there for a second, so we had to we had to sort of stitch in take b.

But because you did get the machine to do what it set out to do.

But because you did get the machine to do what it set out to do.

Who designed the machine? Are you part of that?

Who designed the machine? Are you part of that?

Yes, well there was we we put I mean this is now, you know, ten fifteen years ago, but we put a we put up a job posting on a sort of like nerdy artists board saying we're looking for an engineer who can help us build a Goldberg machine. And twelve engineers together wrote us a proposal, and we're like, guys, you're not very good engineers, if you like, you know, we asked for one. This is too many.

Yes, well there was we we put I mean this is now, you know, ten fifteen years ago, but we put a we put up a job posting on a sort of like nerdy artists board saying we're looking for an engineer who can help us build a Goldberg machine. And twelve engineers together wrote us a proposal, and we're like, guys, you're not very good engineers, if you like, you know, we asked for one. This is too many.

We can't we cannot afford you.

We can't we cannot afford you.

And they said, no, no, we'll just pay us like we're one person, and we'll just split it up. And it so wound up being this sort of group art project where by the end, I think people logged hours and you only got paid if you did more than ten hours a week or something like that. Like, but people would just come into this giant warehouse and everybody would sort of work on it together and play and have fun. And my dad build some of that machine. I built a bunch of that machine. We broke it up into a whole lot of different six second chunks of the song, and so that there was sort of like there were discrete problems to try to solve and and we could then review things while we were on tour and come back and you know, like the last three weeks of that build, I was there every day, but there was another like three months.

And they said, no, no, we'll just pay us like we're one person, and we'll just split it up. And it so wound up being this sort of group art project where by the end, I think people logged hours and you only got paid if you did more than ten hours a week or something like that. Like, but people would just come into this giant warehouse and everybody would sort of work on it together and play and have fun. And my dad build some of that machine. I built a bunch of that machine. We broke it up into a whole lot of different six second chunks of the song, and so that there was sort of like there were discrete problems to try to solve and and we could then review things while we were on tour and come back and you know, like the last three weeks of that build, I was there every day, but there was another like three months.

So you would you in the in the case of like these big videos, will you amand the music to fit the video?

So you would you in the in the case of like these big videos, will you amand the music to fit the video?

Will you change?

Will you change?

Like you know, if you're in a you know, that one show looking thing in the airplane, do you change the music.

Like you know, if you're in a you know, that one show looking thing in the airplane, do you change the music.

To generally know the one shot one in the airplane is uh, that's the that's the album version of that song. That one is you know, we're in zero gravity and you can get twenty eight seconds of sorry, you can get yeah, twenty eight and a half seconds of zero gravity for each each time the plane dives. So what we did for that was we broke the song up into twenty one second chunks that were that fit the you know, tempo of the music nicely, so that every four bars there would be a applause based.

To generally know the one shot one in the airplane is uh, that's the that's the album version of that song. That one is you know, we're in zero gravity and you can get twenty eight seconds of sorry, you can get yeah, twenty eight and a half seconds of zero gravity for each each time the plane dives. So what we did for that was we broke the song up into twenty one second chunks that were that fit the you know, tempo of the music nicely, so that every four bars there would be a applause based.

So, how do you rehearse that something like that?

So, how do you rehearse that something like that?

Do you do?

Do you do?

You have to rehearse it?

You have to rehearse it?

Like are you watching a clock while the plane is in the site wave?

Like are you watching a clock while the plane is in the site wave?

Is that what was happening? Or were you?

Is that what was happening? Or were you?

We spent six flights just bouncing off the walls doing every like, you know, six flights of fifteen each, So what is that three hundred? Do I have that? Six? Fifteen is six?

We spent six flights just bouncing off the walls doing every like, you know, six flights of fifteen each, So what is that three hundred? Do I have that? Six? Fifteen is six?

No, I'm way off sixty ninety.

No, I'm way off sixty ninety.

So we had ninety little like test segments and then and then we then with the footage from that, we had go pros everywhere just filming everything. With a footage from that, we put together what we thought a routine would be, you know, just in a dance studio, going kind of like we could do this thing and then that thing, and then and then we went back to the plane and spent another week, another six flights trying out that routine, and then finally a week of shooting those. And during the week of shooting them, each flight you have fifteen periods of weightlessness. The video requires eight of them, so we do seven as a rehearsal, then reset everything and do the full video as the final eight. And in between each like, it's thirty seconds of weightlessness more or less, then five minutes as the plane climbs back up to where it can basically drop you again. And during that we just to sit still as we could so that we would later be able to like morph over that period.

So we had ninety little like test segments and then and then we then with the footage from that, we had go pros everywhere just filming everything. With a footage from that, we put together what we thought a routine would be, you know, just in a dance studio, going kind of like we could do this thing and then that thing, and then and then we went back to the plane and spent another week, another six flights trying out that routine, and then finally a week of shooting those. And during the week of shooting them, each flight you have fifteen periods of weightlessness. The video requires eight of them, so we do seven as a rehearsal, then reset everything and do the full video as the final eight. And in between each like, it's thirty seconds of weightlessness more or less, then five minutes as the plane climbs back up to where it can basically drop you again. And during that we just to sit still as we could so that we would later be able to like morph over that period.

It sounds fantastically expansive. It was it. Yeah, who paid? The record company paid for this?

It sounds fantastically expansive. It was it. Yeah, who paid? The record company paid for this?

No, we are our own label. So a Russian airline this was back before the Russia and THESTA fell apart. There you'll see on the back of the back of that plane, I mean like in the in the back you can see it as a S seven.

No, we are our own label. So a Russian airline this was back before the Russia and THESTA fell apart. There you'll see on the back of the back of that plane, I mean like in the in the back you can see it as a S seven.

That's a Russian airline and they were this was their ad campaign.

That's a Russian airline and they were this was their ad campaign.

Wow, so they donated that for an ad campaign. That's great. Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy, and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson Show and is this right there?

Wow, so they donated that for an ad campaign. That's great. Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy, and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson Show and is this right there?

Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't look.

Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't look.

I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. You must have some very clever producing skills or some very clever producers to I mean, how the hell do you get in touch with Russian airlines? So do you want to do music video and it will get you know, because I.

I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. You must have some very clever producing skills or some very clever producers to I mean, how the hell do you get in touch with Russian airlines? So do you want to do music video and it will get you know, because I.

Don't think I don't think I even voice that video go.

Don't think I don't think I even voice that video go.

You know what airline I should be taken is the one that.

You know what airline I should be taken is the one that.

I do remember thinking like how ambitious are you? Like, like well, and how risk averse are you? Because like that's not the type of airplane you want to be in. But you know, our Goldberg Machine was underwritten by by State Farm Insurance, which it's like, I feel like everything that happens in that video looks like something you should be ensuring again, you know, like.

I do remember thinking like how ambitious are you? Like, like well, and how risk averse are you? Because like that's not the type of airplane you want to be in. But you know, our Goldberg Machine was underwritten by by State Farm Insurance, which it's like, I feel like everything that happens in that video looks like something you should be ensuring again, you know, like.

But that's that's kind of interesting because they I mean presumably they were the good guys when they were underwrite in the video. But I don't know if everyone's very happy with State Farm Insurance right now, particularly in Los Angeles.

But that's that's kind of interesting because they I mean presumably they were the good guys when they were underwrite in the video. But I don't know if everyone's very happy with State Farm Insurance right now, particularly in Los Angeles.

No, no, but certainly not. I mean again, this is many years ago, but I you know, like we had to make this this choice fifteen twenty years ago about whether or not we were going to do the standard music industry dance or try to do it ourselves, and that that State Farm video was the first one where we had any any brand money helping to pay for stuff, and it was it was a difficult balance because back then the idea of selling out was a very real thing, and it was like, people are going to hate this if they if it feels like we are just you know, sort of dancing monkeys. Now it's best I understand it, Like you know, younger millennials definitely gen Z and beyond see see those brand collaborations as as a badge of honors like it's it's there's.

No, no, but certainly not. I mean again, this is many years ago, but I you know, like we had to make this this choice fifteen twenty years ago about whether or not we were going to do the standard music industry dance or try to do it ourselves, and that that State Farm video was the first one where we had any any brand money helping to pay for stuff, and it was it was a difficult balance because back then the idea of selling out was a very real thing, and it was like, people are going to hate this if they if it feels like we are just you know, sort of dancing monkeys. Now it's best I understand it, Like you know, younger millennials definitely gen Z and beyond see see those brand collaborations as as a badge of honors like it's it's there's.

I think that the opposite of that.

I think that the opposite of that.

I think they look at it a different way as well, because because they also use it as their as their power. I think the young people when they say we will withdraw our business from Target or Star Books or whoever, as they're angry at at the time, until you fall in line with you know, whatever we're arguing about, which is a different It is a kind of change which I think is it has it does it's valid? I mean there is a kind of like, well, I'm not buying your crap until I feel like you're a decent human being. Or your position aligns with mine, which I think is fair. That seems democratic to me.

I think they look at it a different way as well, because because they also use it as their as their power. I think the young people when they say we will withdraw our business from Target or Star Books or whoever, as they're angry at at the time, until you fall in line with you know, whatever we're arguing about, which is a different It is a kind of change which I think is it has it does it's valid? I mean there is a kind of like, well, I'm not buying your crap until I feel like you're a decent human being. Or your position aligns with mine, which I think is fair. That seems democratic to me.

Absolutely, yeah, I think that. I mean, voting with your dollar is a is more effective than voting. Yeah, I think everybody's voting with dollars. It just depends on much dollars you have and what votes you're using to do. What is the situation then with your record company? Now then you is it only your band or do you bring in other bands?

Absolutely, yeah, I think that. I mean, voting with your dollar is a is more effective than voting. Yeah, I think everybody's voting with dollars. It just depends on much dollars you have and what votes you're using to do. What is the situation then with your record company? Now then you is it only your band or do you bring in other bands?

And do you do you function like a We have occasionally released other bands.

And do you do you function like a We have occasionally released other bands.

For the most part, it's more the record company stuff isn't very unal so it's like we don't particularly want to do it unless unless we're doing it for ourselves. But it's it's mostly just that it's not like there're the functions of a of an old fashioned record label. It used to be a lot about physical distribution and now that's not part of the part of it anymore. There's still a lot of business. I mean, it's still a lot of stuff that has to happen, and most of it is sort of just you know, promotional and and logistical. But it is you know, I don't it's not stuff I relish doing. But if you're kind of a detail freak. You're gonna wind up wanting to oversee it all anyways.

For the most part, it's more the record company stuff isn't very unal so it's like we don't particularly want to do it unless unless we're doing it for ourselves. But it's it's mostly just that it's not like there're the functions of a of an old fashioned record label. It used to be a lot about physical distribution and now that's not part of the part of it anymore. There's still a lot of business. I mean, it's still a lot of stuff that has to happen, and most of it is sort of just you know, promotional and and logistical. But it is you know, I don't it's not stuff I relish doing. But if you're kind of a detail freak. You're gonna wind up wanting to oversee it all anyways.

You might as well just are you a detail freak? You think? Unfortunately, Yeah, I think that's I think that.

You might as well just are you a detail freak? You think? Unfortunately, Yeah, I think that's I think that.

You know, it's not unusual for musicians or artists to be that way. I mean, you you want your your you want your ship to be the way you want it to be.

You know, it's not unusual for musicians or artists to be that way. I mean, you you want your your you want your ship to be the way you want it to be.

That's that's the whole gig, right, you want it to be. Well.

That's that's the whole gig, right, you want it to be. Well.

I always say when when I'm doing anything, is I don't want it to be produced unless it is produced by me.

I always say when when I'm doing anything, is I don't want it to be produced unless it is produced by me.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't you know if you say, well, this is what happens here to go, I don't know what happens here. I'm doing it, so I feel like it's a That's why through all of it, and through doing the late night showing, through all the television I've done, I eventually went back to doing only stand up and doing podcasts because I can talk to you. I want to on a podcast because it's there's no one here to tell me. I can't you know, there's like you can't talk to like. I remember one of the early podcasts I did was with one of the senior undertakers. In New York City, a lovely man, and I wanted to know about undertaking, and I had no idea. It is fascinating world, and it's like you have to go to have a college degree to do it, and it's like a.

I don't you know if you say, well, this is what happens here to go, I don't know what happens here. I'm doing it, so I feel like it's a That's why through all of it, and through doing the late night showing, through all the television I've done, I eventually went back to doing only stand up and doing podcasts because I can talk to you. I want to on a podcast because it's there's no one here to tell me. I can't you know, there's like you can't talk to like. I remember one of the early podcasts I did was with one of the senior undertakers. In New York City, a lovely man, and I wanted to know about undertaking, and I had no idea. It is fascinating world, and it's like you have to go to have a college degree to do it, and it's like a.

Real, a real interesting thing.

Real, a real interesting thing.

And I wouldn't have been able to get that guy a three minute interview second guest on a Wednesday night or late night. There's no way I would have been able to do that. And I could talk to him for an hour. And that's what I think is the great gift of this world. Now, the kind of I know that you have talked. Then you're going from of Congress or something about net neutrality. I did, Yeah, can you describe to me what net neutrality actually means?

And I wouldn't have been able to get that guy a three minute interview second guest on a Wednesday night or late night. There's no way I would have been able to do that. And I could talk to him for an hour. And that's what I think is the great gift of this world. Now, the kind of I know that you have talked. Then you're going from of Congress or something about net neutrality. I did, Yeah, can you describe to me what net neutrality actually means?

Uh? Net neutrality? Boy? And I it has been a long time since that was the specific argument, So I hope I'm not too out of date, but that that the traffic on the Internet is going across lines that are right right like there are people there, there are there. The actual infrastructure of the Internet is owned by the same people who are generally by by the same companies who are who are selling us that access, and so they can preference what what information travels and what speeds, and and so that there was actual preferencing of corporate information over private information back then, and that there was there were basically it was it was essentially Internet payola. And that was.

Uh? Net neutrality? Boy? And I it has been a long time since that was the specific argument, So I hope I'm not too out of date, but that that the traffic on the Internet is going across lines that are right right like there are people there, there are there. The actual infrastructure of the Internet is owned by the same people who are generally by by the same companies who are who are selling us that access, and so they can preference what what information travels and what speeds, and and so that there was actual preferencing of corporate information over private information back then, and that there was there were basically it was it was essentially Internet payola. And that was.

A nasty, nasty, nasty thing.

A nasty, nasty, nasty thing.

Now we have a much worse issue, which is sort of we have wound up asking the content networks to be the police of the content on them. We expect Facebook to be to decide what should be on Facebook, and the misinformation that flourishes is their problem.

Now we have a much worse issue, which is sort of we have wound up asking the content networks to be the police of the content on them. We expect Facebook to be to decide what should be on Facebook, and the misinformation that flourishes is their problem.

Yeah, But it's interesting thing because then people go mad at Martin Zuckerberg recently because he said, all right, we're not gonna We're not gonna police it. We're just gonna people can flag it. Is that is that neutrality?

Yeah, But it's interesting thing because then people go mad at Martin Zuckerberg recently because he said, all right, we're not gonna We're not gonna police it. We're just gonna people can flag it. Is that is that neutrality?

Is that? Is that? I? I don't This is why I was scared of being on a date because I honestly don't know where. Like we've gotten now gotten past the point where we're worried about comcasting at and t throttling things so that they can uh, so that they can serve the interest of their business partners and into the world of misinformation and I and I honestly I'm so overwhelmed by it myself that I don't I have not developed a position that I.

Is that? Is that? I? I don't This is why I was scared of being on a date because I honestly don't know where. Like we've gotten now gotten past the point where we're worried about comcasting at and t throttling things so that they can uh, so that they can serve the interest of their business partners and into the world of misinformation and I and I honestly I'm so overwhelmed by it myself that I don't I have not developed a position that I.

It's first of all, that's a very refreshing thing to hear any human being to say in this day and age. But what I think is is fascinating though, that in the age of as we wander into every discussion I've had with everybody, at some point we end up talking about AI. And I think because it's an enormous change in how we're living and it's coming fast. But what I'm fascinated by with it is that it really is as far as the Internet goes, as far as the digital information goes, we're in a post truth environment where you can't actually trust anything, even the video which you're watching. I mean, I'm sure there's an AI program that could make an okay go video that would convince most people that you had done it.

It's first of all, that's a very refreshing thing to hear any human being to say in this day and age. But what I think is is fascinating though, that in the age of as we wander into every discussion I've had with everybody, at some point we end up talking about AI. And I think because it's an enormous change in how we're living and it's coming fast. But what I'm fascinated by with it is that it really is as far as the Internet goes, as far as the digital information goes, we're in a post truth environment where you can't actually trust anything, even the video which you're watching. I mean, I'm sure there's an AI program that could make an okay go video that would convince most people that you had done it.

Yes, for sure, and it's mind muggling.

Yes, for sure, and it's mind muggling.

And it also, luckily for my little man, it does put a premium on stuff that where people try just for the sake trying, right, I mean, there is some trust is involved that people do on the other end of the screen, Like the thing we make winds up on the other end of the pipeline going into your eyes or going into your ears, and you need to trust us in some way that this is the real thing. Luckily, we've been doing this for twenty twenty five years, so we're fairly trustworthy source of you.

And it also, luckily for my little man, it does put a premium on stuff that where people try just for the sake trying, right, I mean, there is some trust is involved that people do on the other end of the screen, Like the thing we make winds up on the other end of the pipeline going into your eyes or going into your ears, and you need to trust us in some way that this is the real thing. Luckily, we've been doing this for twenty twenty five years, so we're fairly trustworthy source of you.

You are trustingly, but the machine is no longer trustworthy. That's what I think is the frightening thing. That I trust you to make the product, the way that.

You are trustingly, but the machine is no longer trustworthy. That's what I think is the frightening thing. That I trust you to make the product, the way that.

You make and the way you said you made it.

You make and the way you said you made it.

But I don't know if I trust my phone to be giving me something that wasn't put together in a bot farm somewhere, and I don't know anywhere wherever the boat farms are.

But I don't know if I trust my phone to be giving me something that wasn't put together in a bot farm somewhere, and I don't know anywhere wherever the boat farms are.

Do you ever use? Are you ever?

Do you ever use? Are you ever?

Because on one side, everybody likes to I certainly like to talk about how scary AI is and how bad.

Because on one side, everybody likes to I certainly like to talk about how scary AI is and how bad.

It is, but it's also you know, it could be great. You know, I've talked to I've talked.

It is, but it's also you know, it could be great. You know, I've talked to I've talked.

To a surgeon on this this podcast who is like, no, this is fantasic. Is going to save so many lives in surgery because this thing can do stuff that I just can't. You know, it can do it faster, it can do it can do it, It can make decisions, It can analyze data that would normally take me a week a day, two operations, three operations.

To a surgeon on this this podcast who is like, no, this is fantasic. Is going to save so many lives in surgery because this thing can do stuff that I just can't. You know, it can do it faster, it can do it can do it, It can make decisions, It can analyze data that would normally take me a week a day, two operations, three operations.

I don't have to do it.

I don't have to do it.

I can get it instantly as as soon as the.

I can get it instantly as as soon as the.

Patient is Sometimes I don't even have to open them up.

Patient is Sometimes I don't even have to open them up.

And I think that that is the other side of is the technological balance, isn't it?

And I think that that is the other side of is the technological balance, isn't it?

Yeah? I know it's incredibly, incredibly powerful, and I think people mostly sort of jump to endpoints.

Yeah? I know it's incredibly, incredibly powerful, and I think people mostly sort of jump to endpoints.

Is this going to be a big monster that's going to come after us and try to kill us, or is it going to make a believable version of Craig Ferguson that's not actually Craig Ferguson. I think the more realistic, in my estimation, sort of slide into the future has more to do with how many intermediary steps it cuts out, and whose jobs is replacing, and what that does to the eventual product that Like, when you think about it with respect to music, it's not that it's not just that you can have an AI replication of Taylor Swiss Voice. It's that I would be astonished if our recording programs within the next year or two didn't have a button that you could push to get a better guitar track than the one that you just recorded right.

Is this going to be a big monster that's going to come after us and try to kill us, or is it going to make a believable version of Craig Ferguson that's not actually Craig Ferguson. I think the more realistic, in my estimation, sort of slide into the future has more to do with how many intermediary steps it cuts out, and whose jobs is replacing, and what that does to the eventual product that Like, when you think about it with respect to music, it's not that it's not just that you can have an AI replication of Taylor Swiss Voice. It's that I would be astonished if our recording programs within the next year or two didn't have a button that you could push to get a better guitar track than the one that you just recorded right.

All right, So it's almost it's like but extrapolating that so that it gives you, it realizes what you're trying.

All right, So it's almost it's like but extrapolating that so that it gives you, it realizes what you're trying.

To do and makes it better.

To do and makes it better.

Yeah. So like, for instance, my wife and I directed a film for Apple the year before last, and in the mixing process, I remember you were you know, we're there in a giant mixing studio to do this very high end professional cinema mix and the tool that was used to clean up the audio was all AI based.

Yeah. So like, for instance, my wife and I directed a film for Apple the year before last, and in the mixing process, I remember you were you know, we're there in a giant mixing studio to do this very high end professional cinema mix and the tool that was used to clean up the audio was all AI based.

And it's unbelievable what you can do.

And it's unbelievable what you can do.

You can take a track from you know, a musical track from the nineteen sixties and pull out each individual instrument and remix it on the flat if you want to, and that it's unbelievably powerful. Crazy, it's it, and it is you know, from a workflow perspective, why would you not do that? But when you think about what that is, what that is capable of them, why would like it's that tool? Anybody uh in the path is dumb not to use that tool. Right.

You can take a track from you know, a musical track from the nineteen sixties and pull out each individual instrument and remix it on the flat if you want to, and that it's unbelievably powerful. Crazy, it's it, and it is you know, from a workflow perspective, why would you not do that? But when you think about what that is, what that is capable of them, why would like it's that tool? Anybody uh in the path is dumb not to use that tool. Right.

But now, now, like pivot that to logistics. Let's say if you're running a port right now, you would be dumb not to run your logistics through an AI that can make better routing decisions.

But now, now, like pivot that to logistics. Let's say if you're running a port right now, you would be dumb not to run your logistics through an AI that can make better routing decisions.

Than you can't. Right, And if you are a small local government, you would be dumb not to interface with that I with your own AI, you know, and like, and at some point you're it's it's not a question of like, this big evil robot coming after people. It's just that they're they're all black box decisions. We don't know why it's a better decision. We know that it came up with an answer that works, right, and that's all we know. Right, You usually can't go back into an AI and actually figure out what the reasoning was because there is no reason. It's it's pattern recognition, and it's recursive and and it feeds on itself, and it's like it can't explain to you why it has done it. So what happens when you have misalignment with with the actual human goals that have gone into it, Right.

Than you can't. Right, And if you are a small local government, you would be dumb not to interface with that I with your own AI, you know, and like, and at some point you're it's it's not a question of like, this big evil robot coming after people. It's just that they're they're all black box decisions. We don't know why it's a better decision. We know that it came up with an answer that works, right, and that's all we know. Right, You usually can't go back into an AI and actually figure out what the reasoning was because there is no reason. It's it's pattern recognition, and it's recursive and and it feeds on itself, and it's like it can't explain to you why it has done it. So what happens when you have misalignment with with the actual human goals that have gone into it, Right.

So when the human goals and the synthetic intelligence goals don't mash up, so the artificial intelligence makes a decision in favor of who well or in.

So when the human goals and the synthetic intelligence goals don't mash up, so the artificial intelligence makes a decision in favor of who well or in.

Favor of what it believes the goals to be, which you may have set but like you know, like the Aladdin's lamp or whatever. It's sort of like there's always a way to achieve those goals, which actually may reveal to you that you should have had better calls, you know.

Favor of what it believes the goals to be, which you may have set but like you know, like the Aladdin's lamp or whatever. It's sort of like there's always a way to achieve those goals, which actually may reveal to you that you should have had better calls, you know.

But it's but it actually goes back to I think the point you were making la on about climate change effects is is what's affecting the society change because it's a technological It's like when the printing press is invented, then very quickly you lead on to the Protestant Reformation in the because people are starting to look at Bibles that they weren't allowed to look at before, and then you start thinking about we'd like to look at this in our own language. And suddenly there's a and suddenly everything changes because of a piece of technology. But I think that the AI to me, it seems to be on a par I think with the printing press and the sense of the changes that will bring. Some of them are outstandingly good, but it's probably not all going to be good.

But it's but it actually goes back to I think the point you were making la on about climate change effects is is what's affecting the society change because it's a technological It's like when the printing press is invented, then very quickly you lead on to the Protestant Reformation in the because people are starting to look at Bibles that they weren't allowed to look at before, and then you start thinking about we'd like to look at this in our own language. And suddenly there's a and suddenly everything changes because of a piece of technology. But I think that the AI to me, it seems to be on a par I think with the printing press and the sense of the changes that will bring. Some of them are outstandingly good, but it's probably not all going to be good.

No, It's hard for me to imagine a an industry that won't be completely top down. Time you've talked about a revolutionized planet, because I'd feel like mostly what AI is currently good at is pattern recognition. Most what humans do is pattern reaction and like and that's and we're in the early days. We're like, we're we're at you know, we're in the Internet of nineteen seventy eight, not even nineteen ninety, you know what I mean. We're like, this is very, very very early days, and so I have a hard like, in fact, the first song on our new album is is written to this idea because I just realized writing a rock and roll album right now is feels almost silly, like a bunch of guys standing there with guitars and drums making music like it feels like releasing a brand new flip book the day before cinema is invented, you know what I mean?

No, It's hard for me to imagine a an industry that won't be completely top down. Time you've talked about a revolutionized planet, because I'd feel like mostly what AI is currently good at is pattern recognition. Most what humans do is pattern reaction and like and that's and we're in the early days. We're like, we're we're at you know, we're in the Internet of nineteen seventy eight, not even nineteen ninety, you know what I mean. We're like, this is very, very very early days, and so I have a hard like, in fact, the first song on our new album is is written to this idea because I just realized writing a rock and roll album right now is feels almost silly, like a bunch of guys standing there with guitars and drums making music like it feels like releasing a brand new flip book the day before cinema is invented, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I get it, But I think that that's why I mean, I feel like in my reaction to it has been like all of the work now has to be live. Everything has to be live. I have to do shows which are live. I have When I started out in my life when I was six fifteen, sixteen years old, my job for the until I was about twenty one was I was a drummer. I was a drummer in rock bands and punk rock bands, and I remember saying that nothing's going to replace drummers now, but the first fucking thing to go it was, like I mean, and I was.

Yeah, I get it, But I think that that's why I mean, I feel like in my reaction to it has been like all of the work now has to be live. Everything has to be live. I have to do shows which are live. I have When I started out in my life when I was six fifteen, sixteen years old, my job for the until I was about twenty one was I was a drummer. I was a drummer in rock bands and punk rock bands, and I remember saying that nothing's going to replace drummers now, but the first fucking thing to go it was, like I mean, and I was.

I should have known better.

I should have known better.

I was listening to craft Work when I was twelve, but I didn't see the signs, you know what I mean. It's like I didn't put the I didn't make any pattern recognition.

I was listening to craft Work when I was twelve, but I didn't see the signs, you know what I mean. It's like I didn't put the I didn't make any pattern recognition.

But I think you're right.

But I think you're right.

There's also you go into any town in the United States and you will see a bunch of groovy people looking for vinyl in some store, probably near the railway station.

There's also you go into any town in the United States and you will see a bunch of groovy people looking for vinyl in some store, probably near the railway station.

Oh yeah, I listened to vinyl. You know, I still do it.

Oh yeah, I listened to vinyl. You know, I still do it.

I imagine you probably have a vinyl collection as well, And I think that there is I don't think it's just nostalgia.

I imagine you probably have a vinyl collection as well, And I think that there is I don't think it's just nostalgia.

I think it's also it's a different experience.

I think it's also it's a different experience.

Well. I think it all points to the same slippery slope, which is that when anything is possible, nothing is special, right, So everybody wants to have more and more access to the stuff they love. But the more access you have to the less special any individual part of it becomes. And so you and I grew up summing through through punk rock record store seven inch boxes to find that one seven inch from that one band that nobody else had a copy of, because it would I mean, the music that was on there could change your life.

Well. I think it all points to the same slippery slope, which is that when anything is possible, nothing is special, right, So everybody wants to have more and more access to the stuff they love. But the more access you have to the less special any individual part of it becomes. And so you and I grew up summing through through punk rock record store seven inch boxes to find that one seven inch from that one band that nobody else had a copy of, because it would I mean, the music that was on there could change your life.

But just having it was a thing, you know, it took some work, it took some effort.

But just having it was a thing, you know, it took some work, it took some effort.

And and that that relationship to songs changed twenty years ago at least, right, But but it continues to change all the time. I mean, there's no now to a fifteen year old, it's just as easy to discover Edda James as it is to discover Taylor Swift. Right, Like, they're not other.

And and that that relationship to songs changed twenty years ago at least, right, But but it continues to change all the time. I mean, there's no now to a fifteen year old, it's just as easy to discover Edda James as it is to discover Taylor Swift. Right, Like, they're not other.

Than the promotional money behind one.

Than the promotional money behind one.

There is no there. They're both right there on your phone, right, there's no like when I wanted to know who John Zorn was, I had to find a weird enough record store to carry John Thorn records. Now you just have to know you have heard the names, you know, or the algorithmlessons.

There is no there. They're both right there on your phone, right, there's no like when I wanted to know who John Zorn was, I had to find a weird enough record store to carry John Thorn records. Now you just have to know you have heard the names, you know, or the algorithmlessons.

But I think does that make you optimistic or pessimistic, because because some of it is some of that is great.

But I think does that make you optimistic or pessimistic, because because some of it is some of that is great.

Right, It's both. It's just it's just changing mystic, you know what I mean.

Right, It's both. It's just it's just changing mystic, you know what I mean.

It's just that like it doesn't that you can't that that you can't really put that Genie back in the bottle and and like we buy people buy vinyl now, but I don't even know if they buy it to listen to so much as to like have a tactile experience again and be able to like engage with something, right, you know, that's not sort of coming from the cloud. And I would say that that's where that's where I think that the like the ai AI universe is likely to be that expansion to every piece of the human labor there is right that like everything is possible and nothing is special, and so like I do, I hopefully there's just there's just things that are then arbitrarily special because like we're gonna put work into like, okay videos, right, there is an easier way to make this, but we're going to do it this way because it will mean more.

It's just that like it doesn't that you can't that that you can't really put that Genie back in the bottle and and like we buy people buy vinyl now, but I don't even know if they buy it to listen to so much as to like have a tactile experience again and be able to like engage with something, right, you know, that's not sort of coming from the cloud. And I would say that that's where that's where I think that the like the ai AI universe is likely to be that expansion to every piece of the human labor there is right that like everything is possible and nothing is special, and so like I do, I hopefully there's just there's just things that are then arbitrarily special because like we're gonna put work into like, okay videos, right, there is an easier way to make this, but we're going to do it this way because it will mean more.

I did have a movie about I don't know, ten more than ten years ago, probably like closer to fifteen years ago for the I don't know if you've heard on the Disney Corporation and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. These guys and they decided that they wanted to make a movie of Winnie the Pooh, but they were going to do it all hands.

I did have a movie about I don't know, ten more than ten years ago, probably like closer to fifteen years ago for the I don't know if you've heard on the Disney Corporation and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. These guys and they decided that they wanted to make a movie of Winnie the Pooh, but they were going to do it all hands.

So I did the voice of Owl.

So I did the voice of Owl.

But the entire movie was hand drawn, was done in the old style, and it was I think the last one they've done. And I remember asking them why they're doing it, and they said, because we can't, because we can, because we're Disney and we can. We can do it, and it can be great, and it's great, it's beautiful and it has Maybe it's because I know that the movie was hand drawn, it feels different to me. But because I'm sure that the eye program can now can now make it animation look like like that, it can make it look exactly the same way.

But the entire movie was hand drawn, was done in the old style, and it was I think the last one they've done. And I remember asking them why they're doing it, and they said, because we can't, because we can, because we're Disney and we can. We can do it, and it can be great, and it's great, it's beautiful and it has Maybe it's because I know that the movie was hand drawn, it feels different to me. But because I'm sure that the eye program can now can now make it animation look like like that, it can make it look exactly the same way.

My oldest kid is an animator.

My oldest kid is an animator.

He's twenty four, and he's looking at having studied all through that time, now looking at an industry which is changing. As you say, it's like the Internet in nineteen seventy eight, It's like what now? What now?

He's twenty four, and he's looking at having studied all through that time, now looking at an industry which is changing. As you say, it's like the Internet in nineteen seventy eight, It's like what now? What now?

What now? What now? What now? But you have children?

What now? What now? What now? But you have children?

What do you?

What do you?

What do you do?

What do you do?

You have view parameters and your parenting? Is there is there something you think? This is what I must teach them in order to navigate this.