The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life. The average person is never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of the Vicatch Killers NYPD. Those letters are embedded in my psyche. The New York Police Department, for some reason, represents everything there is about policing. I'm talking the good, the bad, and the ugly. If you've spent twenty years as a cop in New York, you've earnt your stripes in policing, that's for sure. Today's guest retired NOPD Sergeant John Fariso has done just that, and today we have the pleasure of having him on My Catch Killers. As you'd expect from a veteran New York cop, he has a thousand stories to tell. In two thousand and one, he was on duty working at one police plaza, just a short distance from where the planes crashed into the World Trade Center. He was shaken by the explosion and had the horror of seeing people jump from the building to their death. Today he's going to give us a first hand account of the fear and the chaos of what occurred. But that's just part of his story. This is how he described his policing career. When you're a New York City police officer, you become a social worker, chauffeur, human relations consultant, and a tour guide. You're expected to do all those things while stopping crime as it occurs, preventing crime, and keeping the peace in a city that never takes a break. Today to hear his stories, John Fariso, welcome to I Catch Killers.

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life. The average person is never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of the Vicatch Killers NYPD. Those letters are embedded in my psyche. The New York Police Department, for some reason, represents everything there is about policing. I'm talking the good, the bad, and the ugly. If you've spent twenty years as a cop in New York, you've earnt your stripes in policing, that's for sure. Today's guest retired NOPD Sergeant John Fariso has done just that, and today we have the pleasure of having him on My Catch Killers. As you'd expect from a veteran New York cop, he has a thousand stories to tell. In two thousand and one, he was on duty working at one police plaza, just a short distance from where the planes crashed into the World Trade Center. He was shaken by the explosion and had the horror of seeing people jump from the building to their death. Today he's going to give us a first hand account of the fear and the chaos of what occurred. But that's just part of his story. This is how he described his policing career. When you're a New York City police officer, you become a social worker, chauffeur, human relations consultant, and a tour guide. You're expected to do all those things while stopping crime as it occurs, preventing crime, and keeping the peace in a city that never takes a break. Today to hear his stories, John Fariso, welcome to I Catch Killers.

Thank you great to be here.

Thank you great to be here.

Well, I've got to say you're the first New York cop we've had on I Catch Killer. Someone a bit excited about that because policing in New York is poleacing at the sharp end. And yeah, we've touched on New York crime. I had Michael Francis as a guest, the Mafia Kappa a guest on there, and I've also had Joe Pistoni, the real Donnie Brasco on.

Well, I've got to say you're the first New York cop we've had on I Catch Killer. Someone a bit excited about that because policing in New York is poleacing at the sharp end. And yeah, we've touched on New York crime. I had Michael Francis as a guest, the Mafia Kappa a guest on there, and I've also had Joe Pistoni, the real Donnie Brasco on.

Great. Thank you for having me here. This is my first podcast outside the US, so I appreciate you having me on. I plan on doing more outside of the US, but this is the first one. I'm doing.

Great. Thank you for having me here. This is my first podcast outside the US, so I appreciate you having me on. I plan on doing more outside of the US, but this is the first one. I'm doing.

Oh, very good, very good. Well. I think there is a fascination about policing in New York. I don't know what it is. Whether it's we sort of grow up on hearing stories of New York and if something happens in New York, the news news travels fast. I suppose there's also from my point of view, I was even when I was in the Cops, I was watching MYPD Blues, grew up watching Serpi k the movie, and Donnie Brasco American Gangster. It's all very New York related.

Oh, very good, very good. Well. I think there is a fascination about policing in New York. I don't know what it is. Whether it's we sort of grow up on hearing stories of New York and if something happens in New York, the news news travels fast. I suppose there's also from my point of view, I was even when I was in the Cops, I was watching MYPD Blues, grew up watching Serpi k the movie, and Donnie Brasco American Gangster. It's all very New York related.

Definitely. I'm glad you mentioned Surproco. I mentioned that a lot. That's probably one of the top two best corp movies ever and definitely betrays New York City during the time.

Definitely. I'm glad you mentioned Surproco. I mentioned that a lot. That's probably one of the top two best corp movies ever and definitely betrays New York City during the time.

Yeah, they were different, different times, and we'll talk on that. We've had in New South Wales police. We've had the corruption and everything that comes with policing, but it's just part and parcel of the job. One thing that I noticed reading up and preparing for the podcast here when we go to work in New South Wales cops we go we've got a shift or we're going to work. You guys call it a tour, like each day is a tour. What now that conjures up images of Yeah, you do a tour of war, you do a tour? Is that? Do you think that reflects what policing is New York is all about?

Yeah, they were different, different times, and we'll talk on that. We've had in New South Wales police. We've had the corruption and everything that comes with policing, but it's just part and parcel of the job. One thing that I noticed reading up and preparing for the podcast here when we go to work in New South Wales cops we go we've got a shift or we're going to work. You guys call it a tour, like each day is a tour. What now that conjures up images of Yeah, you do a tour of war, you do a tour? Is that? Do you think that reflects what policing is New York is all about?

Well, I guess, being that there's thirty thousand New York City Police officers, I guess that tour would make sense.

Well, I guess, being that there's thirty thousand New York City Police officers, I guess that tour would make sense.

Yes, yeah, thirty thousand.

Yes, yeah, thirty thousand.

I'm not sure the number now, but there's thirty thousand when I was there.

I'm not sure the number now, but there's thirty thousand when I was there.

Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. Like we've got New South Wales Police I think between fifteen and twenty thousand, and that's a pretty big police forces across the globe. But New York eclipse is that clearly I want to talk about your career. I'm fascinated about your career and what happens, but I also want to talk about the September eleventh when the planes crashed in the twin towers. Can you just describe to me that day? And I've read your piece that you wrote on it, and I just found it fascinating how you started the day off because it was just a typical day. Do you want to just take the listener on that journey, just up until the point where things changed dramatically forever.

Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. Like we've got New South Wales Police I think between fifteen and twenty thousand, and that's a pretty big police forces across the globe. But New York eclipse is that clearly I want to talk about your career. I'm fascinated about your career and what happens, but I also want to talk about the September eleventh when the planes crashed in the twin towers. Can you just describe to me that day? And I've read your piece that you wrote on it, and I just found it fascinating how you started the day off because it was just a typical day. Do you want to just take the listener on that journey, just up until the point where things changed dramatically forever.

Sure, it was a perfect day. The weather was perfect. I woke up in the morning and z eating my breakfast at home. I didn't have kids yet. I was married, but didn't have kids' children yet, so my main concern that day was to how to get fitted for a suit for a wedding. So that was the first thing I thought about when I woke up that morning. I had no clue that within two hours everything I knew would be turned upside down. And what I say and whenever I talk about September eleventh is that I think about it every single day. There has not a day gone by in all these years I haven't thought about it in one way or the other, not in a bad way. It could be something simple, but I think about it. Things trigger it. Construction crews, large crowds of people in the city, low flying planes, a lot of things that make me think about it. So after I breakfast, I got on the bus went to work, and ironically, my bus did past Twin Towers. I called the Twin Towers because that when we grew up in New York City, that's what we called it. We saw it from Queens in the distance. So to us, that was the Twin Towers, and that was a very New York thing. And there was a shadow from the towers that went down low Manhattan and you would walk past the shadow, and that shadow made it pretty far. And my office was, well, in the US it's a half mile I'm not sure on kilometers, maybe point six point eight kilometers, yea, I found correct on that. And then so the shadow made there. I walked to the building and you know, I went inside it and I was still thinking about my suit, and I was thinking about, you know, my day. And I was at a temporary assignment at the time, and I really if September eleventh didn't happen, this assignment would probably never even made it to my book. But so I had a temporary assignment, and you know, I went to the office and you know, the cop humor began because that was very common in police work. As cop Humi. There was twenty of us that were ready to get promoted to sogeant. So we were all just always joking around, talking about making sergeant. And I sat at the desk. I read the newspaper. It was something trivial in it. And then we used to do data entry. This is going back to two thousand and one. You know, we just did data entry. It was a basic assignment. So I was ready to get promoted. So basically you did this data entry until you got promoted to sergeant. I was just a cop at the time. I didn't do investigation. Yet, I didn't do anything. So you know, I sat at the table with all the other cops and like I said, we were doing the cop huma. We were joking. Everybody was laughing, and guys started to go to their desks one by one to do their data entry. And I was getting ready to go and my lieutenant approached me and he said, John, he goes, uh, you need to get these reports going. You need more reports done. So I was the depression. I was doing all my reports. I'm like, yeah, boss, lieutenant, I'll take care of it, no problem, get those reports done for you. So I sat at my desk and I forgot about it. And then I was doing my data entrying these reports. Kevin but coming back to me, and I'm saying, you know, what was he talking about? Why is he asking me about these reports? I says, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wait till I get a closer to lunch time. I'm gonna walk into the tenant's office. I'm gonna ask him directly, what are you talking about with these reports? What do you need done? I'm doing my job here. I got a future here, future outside of this office. So what are we going to do? And then I was sitting at the desk and then I heard this unbelievable sound. It was a boom, but it wasn't like an explosion boom. I would describe it as someone took something like a giant rock and throw it into a dumpster and it echoed an echo boom. And I thought a piece of construction equipment fell off the roof of the building. Because there was construction going on, so we all turns. I turned to the left and I could see the window. And I turned to the left and one of the sergeants was looked at the window and he said, I do know exact words, but it was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. You got to see this, And he was pointing out the window, and being in New York City police officer and living in New York that is not calm and nobody gets, you know, stunned by anything we see. That was like something we all knew something was going on. Yeah, that's when everything changed at that moment.

Sure, it was a perfect day. The weather was perfect. I woke up in the morning and z eating my breakfast at home. I didn't have kids yet. I was married, but didn't have kids' children yet, so my main concern that day was to how to get fitted for a suit for a wedding. So that was the first thing I thought about when I woke up that morning. I had no clue that within two hours everything I knew would be turned upside down. And what I say and whenever I talk about September eleventh is that I think about it every single day. There has not a day gone by in all these years I haven't thought about it in one way or the other, not in a bad way. It could be something simple, but I think about it. Things trigger it. Construction crews, large crowds of people in the city, low flying planes, a lot of things that make me think about it. So after I breakfast, I got on the bus went to work, and ironically, my bus did past Twin Towers. I called the Twin Towers because that when we grew up in New York City, that's what we called it. We saw it from Queens in the distance. So to us, that was the Twin Towers, and that was a very New York thing. And there was a shadow from the towers that went down low Manhattan and you would walk past the shadow, and that shadow made it pretty far. And my office was, well, in the US it's a half mile I'm not sure on kilometers, maybe point six point eight kilometers, yea, I found correct on that. And then so the shadow made there. I walked to the building and you know, I went inside it and I was still thinking about my suit, and I was thinking about, you know, my day. And I was at a temporary assignment at the time, and I really if September eleventh didn't happen, this assignment would probably never even made it to my book. But so I had a temporary assignment, and you know, I went to the office and you know, the cop humor began because that was very common in police work. As cop Humi. There was twenty of us that were ready to get promoted to sogeant. So we were all just always joking around, talking about making sergeant. And I sat at the desk. I read the newspaper. It was something trivial in it. And then we used to do data entry. This is going back to two thousand and one. You know, we just did data entry. It was a basic assignment. So I was ready to get promoted. So basically you did this data entry until you got promoted to sergeant. I was just a cop at the time. I didn't do investigation. Yet, I didn't do anything. So you know, I sat at the table with all the other cops and like I said, we were doing the cop huma. We were joking. Everybody was laughing, and guys started to go to their desks one by one to do their data entry. And I was getting ready to go and my lieutenant approached me and he said, John, he goes, uh, you need to get these reports going. You need more reports done. So I was the depression. I was doing all my reports. I'm like, yeah, boss, lieutenant, I'll take care of it, no problem, get those reports done for you. So I sat at my desk and I forgot about it. And then I was doing my data entrying these reports. Kevin but coming back to me, and I'm saying, you know, what was he talking about? Why is he asking me about these reports? I says, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wait till I get a closer to lunch time. I'm gonna walk into the tenant's office. I'm gonna ask him directly, what are you talking about with these reports? What do you need done? I'm doing my job here. I got a future here, future outside of this office. So what are we going to do? And then I was sitting at the desk and then I heard this unbelievable sound. It was a boom, but it wasn't like an explosion boom. I would describe it as someone took something like a giant rock and throw it into a dumpster and it echoed an echo boom. And I thought a piece of construction equipment fell off the roof of the building. Because there was construction going on, so we all turns. I turned to the left and I could see the window. And I turned to the left and one of the sergeants was looked at the window and he said, I do know exact words, but it was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. You got to see this, And he was pointing out the window, and being in New York City police officer and living in New York that is not calm and nobody gets, you know, stunned by anything we see. That was like something we all knew something was going on. Yeah, that's when everything changed at that moment.

Okay, well, let's we'll stop it there because I want to lead up and find a little bit more about yourself before we talk more detail about that day. A couple of things there. When I was reading your piece about that day and you touched on it there the cop humor, I felt like I was in the office. I know exactly what that's about. You having a go at your fellow workers, as we say in this country, taking the piss out of each other, a bit of laugh, bit of banter, getting about your stuff. There's usually some bosses says something that you know, you dig in you think what's said about so I fully understand that that environment going in there. But let's wind it back a little bit. Where did you grow up?

Okay, well, let's we'll stop it there because I want to lead up and find a little bit more about yourself before we talk more detail about that day. A couple of things there. When I was reading your piece about that day and you touched on it there the cop humor, I felt like I was in the office. I know exactly what that's about. You having a go at your fellow workers, as we say in this country, taking the piss out of each other, a bit of laugh, bit of banter, getting about your stuff. There's usually some bosses says something that you know, you dig in you think what's said about so I fully understand that that environment going in there. But let's wind it back a little bit. Where did you grow up?

You grew up in New York, Yes, Queens, New York, outside of Manhattan and could see the skyline from where I grew up in Blue Carlor neighborhood.

You grew up in New York, Yes, Queens, New York, outside of Manhattan and could see the skyline from where I grew up in Blue Carlor neighborhood.

And what steered you towards policing? Was it something you always wanted to do or is it something you fell into.

And what steered you towards policing? Was it something you always wanted to do or is it something you fell into.

I always knew it at a very young age. I remember in kindergarten talking about it and I remember writing about it. And I had two incidents that happens when I was a kid that really propelled me to police work. And one was actually the son of Sam investigation.

I always knew it at a very young age. I remember in kindergarten talking about it and I remember writing about it. And I had two incidents that happens when I was a kid that really propelled me to police work. And one was actually the son of Sam investigation.

Because I remember that one. Yeah, yes, tell us a little bit about that.

Because I remember that one. Yeah, yes, tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah he was, so you know, you're aware, a son of Sandy Cereal killer, so very interesting person if anyone doesn't know about him, he's very interesting serial killer. So I was a little kid grown up in Queens and a lot of people in my neighborhood were police officers. It was a lot of cops find in sanitation. It was just you know, we were the people that worked in Manhattan but lived in Queen's and it was very common in the seventies. So it was the summer of seventy seven, and I remember that summer was a heat wave. It was hot, so we were always outside. So I'd sit on the stoop and you know, the adults would come out and they'd say, all right, make sure everybody goes inside. The son of Sam is around, or some people called him the forty four caliber killer. So I was only seven years old, and I'm like, I was being told as a serial killer in my neighborhood. Not only was he in the neighborhood, he murdered three people walking distance from my house.

Yeah he was, so you know, you're aware, a son of Sandy Cereal killer, so very interesting person if anyone doesn't know about him, he's very interesting serial killer. So I was a little kid grown up in Queens and a lot of people in my neighborhood were police officers. It was a lot of cops find in sanitation. It was just you know, we were the people that worked in Manhattan but lived in Queen's and it was very common in the seventies. So it was the summer of seventy seven, and I remember that summer was a heat wave. It was hot, so we were always outside. So I'd sit on the stoop and you know, the adults would come out and they'd say, all right, make sure everybody goes inside. The son of Sam is around, or some people called him the forty four caliber killer. So I was only seven years old, and I'm like, I was being told as a serial killer in my neighborhood. Not only was he in the neighborhood, he murdered three people walking distance from my house.

So you say, in the think of it.

So you say, in the think of it.

Yeah, he he did it all over. A lot of people don't know this, but he didn't, you know, hit midtown Manhattan. He didn't hit the affluent areas. He went to the out of burrows and almost like where he grew up, because he grew up in the Bronx. And you know, he shot two people in a car close to my house, I know the exact location, and he shot another woman walking. And these were the two in the car and the woman walking with separate incidents and close enough to where my parents were like, you know, make sure you come in. You know, there's a something. They didn't use the term serial killer. They you know, in the seventies, adults talked to us like we were adults. They were like the forty four caliber killers here. So when the street lights go on and it gets dark, get off the stoop and come inside.

Yeah, he he did it all over. A lot of people don't know this, but he didn't, you know, hit midtown Manhattan. He didn't hit the affluent areas. He went to the out of burrows and almost like where he grew up, because he grew up in the Bronx. And you know, he shot two people in a car close to my house, I know the exact location, and he shot another woman walking. And these were the two in the car and the woman walking with separate incidents and close enough to where my parents were like, you know, make sure you come in. You know, there's a something. They didn't use the term serial killer. They you know, in the seventies, adults talked to us like we were adults. They were like the forty four caliber killers here. So when the street lights go on and it gets dark, get off the stoop and come inside.

So I grew up with that.

So I grew up with that.

And then the newspapers would come into the house in the morning and there would be a front page headline of what this guy did, which was graphic, you know, descriptions of people shot and cause. So at a young age, I knew there was danger out there. And I remembered when they caught him because I remembered my sister talking about it. She was older than me and once again talking about it, like, you know, I should understand this at seven, and she said they caught there was a gun in the car a parking ticket. So I knew people were afraid of this guy, and I was amazed that the cops did investigative work and they caught him. And at a young age, I knew I saw a good versus At a young age, I just saw that as the cops went out and they caught that bad guy, and it's real. It was on the news every day, and it was in the newspapers and it was talked about. And that really made me think about police work at a young age.

And then the newspapers would come into the house in the morning and there would be a front page headline of what this guy did, which was graphic, you know, descriptions of people shot and cause. So at a young age, I knew there was danger out there. And I remembered when they caught him because I remembered my sister talking about it. She was older than me and once again talking about it, like, you know, I should understand this at seven, and she said they caught there was a gun in the car a parking ticket. So I knew people were afraid of this guy, and I was amazed that the cops did investigative work and they caught him. And at a young age, I knew I saw a good versus At a young age, I just saw that as the cops went out and they caught that bad guy, and it's real. It was on the news every day, and it was in the newspapers and it was talked about. And that really made me think about police work at a young age.

Okay. It's funny how those things just register in your mind and get locked in at that early age. But yeah, I do remember that that crime. Okay, so you've decided to join the police. My understanding new York Police, and this is limited understanding, but just in my own experience, I've spoken to people from New York and yeah, when I've been traveling overseas and you mentioned you're a cop, and there's two reactions you tend to get with people from New York. They if you like you for it, or they look at you and just sort of and the energy just get sucked out of the room. It seems to be a polarizing career in the city of New York. Am I am I misreading it?

Okay. It's funny how those things just register in your mind and get locked in at that early age. But yeah, I do remember that that crime. Okay, so you've decided to join the police. My understanding new York Police, and this is limited understanding, but just in my own experience, I've spoken to people from New York and yeah, when I've been traveling overseas and you mentioned you're a cop, and there's two reactions you tend to get with people from New York. They if you like you for it, or they look at you and just sort of and the energy just get sucked out of the room. It seems to be a polarizing career in the city of New York. Am I am I misreading it?

No, not at all, You're correct. Do you either get people that want to hear everything, or they take a step back and they look at you and you know they're thinking about something and you just don't ask. It's interesting at a barbecue when that happens, because we were warned about that in the police academy. The instructors would come out and say, we'll watch. When people know what you do, you're going to get either no one wants to talk to you, or we want to tell you everything that went wrong and you're to blame. Yeah.

No, not at all, You're correct. Do you either get people that want to hear everything, or they take a step back and they look at you and you know they're thinking about something and you just don't ask. It's interesting at a barbecue when that happens, because we were warned about that in the police academy. The instructors would come out and say, we'll watch. When people know what you do, you're going to get either no one wants to talk to you, or we want to tell you everything that went wrong and you're to blame. Yeah.

Well, I picked that up in my travels that people from New York definitely had a strong view one way or the other about cops, either love them or hate them. They didn't seem to be that in between. How old were you when you joined the cops.

Well, I picked that up in my travels that people from New York definitely had a strong view one way or the other about cops, either love them or hate them. They didn't seem to be that in between. How old were you when you joined the cops.

I was twenty three. I was in college, and like I said, I knew I was going to do it. A few of my friends I grew up with we used to play stickball on the street and we should just basically take a rub a ball with a stick, you know, was a cross between a bat and a stick. And we bought them and we just hit it and that's what we played. And I think out of the six of us, four of us became cops. So I kind of knew it. And I was twenty three years old. I had one more year in college, and I just said, you know, I knew the PD was going to call me. So I went into the NYPD in nineteen eighty three.

I was twenty three. I was in college, and like I said, I knew I was going to do it. A few of my friends I grew up with we used to play stickball on the street and we should just basically take a rub a ball with a stick, you know, was a cross between a bat and a stick. And we bought them and we just hit it and that's what we played. And I think out of the six of us, four of us became cops. So I kind of knew it. And I was twenty three years old. I had one more year in college, and I just said, you know, I knew the PD was going to call me. So I went into the NYPD in nineteen eighty three.

The training. Did you enjoy the training? Did you like it's I talked from my experience in policing. I was working in the building trade and then went into policing. And I know the moment I hit the academy, it's a glove that just fitted. I thought, I found what I want to do it. It just felt right from the moment I walked in the door. How did you find it?

The training. Did you enjoy the training? Did you like it's I talked from my experience in policing. I was working in the building trade and then went into policing. And I know the moment I hit the academy, it's a glove that just fitted. I thought, I found what I want to do it. It just felt right from the moment I walked in the door. How did you find it?

Yes, I found it that way. Also, I liked the discipline. I like the quasi military structure. I didn't mind being yelled at if you weren't standard street. You know, I learned how to salute and stand street and standard attention, and you know, they made a standard attention for sometimes thirty minutes, and you know, I think they were at times just massive wordess. But the times we were just being goofballs and they were like, Okay, now you're going to stand attention to thirty minutes. And I understood the discipline of it, and I liked the academy. I had come from college, so the work in the books was okay, and the physical I was ready for that too, So I enjoyed the police academy.

Yes, I found it that way. Also, I liked the discipline. I like the quasi military structure. I didn't mind being yelled at if you weren't standard street. You know, I learned how to salute and stand street and standard attention, and you know, they made a standard attention for sometimes thirty minutes, and you know, I think they were at times just massive wordess. But the times we were just being goofballs and they were like, Okay, now you're going to stand attention to thirty minutes. And I understood the discipline of it, and I liked the academy. I had come from college, so the work in the books was okay, and the physical I was ready for that too, So I enjoyed the police academy.

Did you what was your family's attitude to join the police, Like policing is across the world, is a dangerous occupation in New York, I think it probably arises a little bit, a little bit hard. Were they happy with you going down that path?

Did you what was your family's attitude to join the police, Like policing is across the world, is a dangerous occupation in New York, I think it probably arises a little bit, a little bit hard. Were they happy with you going down that path?

Well, my mom was not. She was wanted me to do other things, and I kept telling her, Mom, this is what I want to do. And I'm sure she knew because I was watching all these cop shows at such a young age and talking about police work, So I think she always knew anyway up against it. Yeah, she just had to say what she needed to say. My uncle was a police officer, and when I was a little kid, you know, we'd sit around at the Italian dinners and you're a cop, let me see your gun, and my uncle say, sit out, kid. And you know, my uncle never talked about it. He was that generation they just didn't talk about it. And then my cousin became a cop, so there was two members of the service in my family. So I my father went. When the NYPD first called me, I said, Dad, I got this letter. The NYPD wants me to come down for an investigation. My dad's like, all right, let's get you a suit. You're going on some interviews. So my dad was very pro for it.

Well, my mom was not. She was wanted me to do other things, and I kept telling her, Mom, this is what I want to do. And I'm sure she knew because I was watching all these cop shows at such a young age and talking about police work, So I think she always knew anyway up against it. Yeah, she just had to say what she needed to say. My uncle was a police officer, and when I was a little kid, you know, we'd sit around at the Italian dinners and you're a cop, let me see your gun, and my uncle say, sit out, kid. And you know, my uncle never talked about it. He was that generation they just didn't talk about it. And then my cousin became a cop, so there was two members of the service in my family. So I my father went. When the NYPD first called me, I said, Dad, I got this letter. The NYPD wants me to come down for an investigation. My dad's like, all right, let's get you a suit. You're going on some interviews. So my dad was very pro for it.

He was for it.

He was for it.

Yeah, yeah, he was all I guess he didn't want to support me, and he was happy with it.

Yeah, yeah, he was all I guess he didn't want to support me, and he was happy with it.

So okay. So you get through the academy and you get out of the police academy, you think you know what you're doing, because there's a lot of skills you've got to learn. You've got to learn your legislation, your powers of arrests, you know, handling people, weapons training. There's a whole lot that you come out with from the academy and you think you're ready to hit the streets. But if your experience is like my experience, when you walk out on the streets, that's when you actually start start learning. And I would imagine in New York it's learning on steroids. What was your first times when you went out walk the streets as a New York cop.

So okay. So you get through the academy and you get out of the police academy, you think you know what you're doing, because there's a lot of skills you've got to learn. You've got to learn your legislation, your powers of arrests, you know, handling people, weapons training. There's a whole lot that you come out with from the academy and you think you're ready to hit the streets. But if your experience is like my experience, when you walk out on the streets, that's when you actually start start learning. And I would imagine in New York it's learning on steroids. What was your first times when you went out walk the streets as a New York cop.

Well, you're correct, you know, the academy could teach you everything in a book. They could show you movies, they could have professionals up there talking and they could do scenarios and you could do handcuffing everything. But they tell you you're going to learn everything on the street, and you're going to learn fast, and I was surprised at how fast it came. There's no real transition. They say there's a training and this and that, but you know, you're working with other carps and other supervisors. You know, if the crap it's a fan, they're not going to go, okay, well, rookie, you stand there, We're going to take care of this. A lot of times, you know, you're the you're the cop, and even the people on the street, they don't want to hear that you just got there. If they have a problem, they're going to get in your face and be like, officers, I just got robbed. You can't tell them I'm a rookie. I just got here. You can't do that. You got to handle it.

Well, you're correct, you know, the academy could teach you everything in a book. They could show you movies, they could have professionals up there talking and they could do scenarios and you could do handcuffing everything. But they tell you you're going to learn everything on the street, and you're going to learn fast, and I was surprised at how fast it came. There's no real transition. They say there's a training and this and that, but you know, you're working with other carps and other supervisors. You know, if the crap it's a fan, they're not going to go, okay, well, rookie, you stand there, We're going to take care of this. A lot of times, you know, you're the you're the cop, and even the people on the street, they don't want to hear that you just got there. If they have a problem, they're going to get in your face and be like, officers, I just got robbed. You can't tell them I'm a rookie. I just got here. You can't do that. You got to handle it.

Yeah, very very much. So like there is no you're out there, you wear that uniform and you're you're now the cop. You can't put put your hand up there. Where were you first stationed and what was the type of work that you were doing first up?

Yeah, very very much. So like there is no you're out there, you wear that uniform and you're you're now the cop. You can't put put your hand up there. Where were you first stationed and what was the type of work that you were doing first up?

Well, everybody goes to patrol right outside the It's not like the movies. Movies got it all wrong. And it's in the NYPD. I could speak for that. Everybody goes right to patrol. You don't really get in a car. It's there's so many of us. They put you on foot posts, so they give you these crappy posts that nobody else wants to take. Guarding the prisoners, bad accidents. You got to wait. I mean you mentioned in your book the crime scene you're always standing outside the tape, not really inside. Yeah, you never really get inside the tape, but you do. But you're standing outside the tape, and you know, people are walking up to you and asking you a questions. You're like, I don't know. I was just put at the tape edge. Just don't go through. I don't have an answer for you. And so the first week I was there, I don't think I saw a car. I saw my sergeant, and you know, like the first day or two, I think it was my In the second day I was there, I was on a foot post and I witnessed a fight in the street. But it was a very busy foot post, and you know, this was everybody gets on the train there and they head into the city. And I witnessed a fight and I was like, all right, guys, you go this way, you go that way. And then one guy got on his bicycle and left the other guy, you know, in front of everybody, because a crowd gathered, and I guess the guy wanted to show up for the crowd. You know. He rips his shirt open and he's telling me to shoot him, and I'm like, you know, wow, this this came fast, you know. So I'm like, you know, I was in college waiting on tables a year ago, and this is what I'm doing right now. So the guy's yelling at me to shoot shoot him, and then he had already I think, hit somebody with a garbage pail, you know, metal garbage pail. So it was an interesting situation. So I actually stepped back because I'm thinking really fast, like wow, you know, there's no academy instructor here. This is on me to handle it. So he took a step towards me. I took out my night stick, and you know, I did the whole academy pose, but it behind my and my mind's race and saying, well, I'm not obviously not gonna shoot him, but if he steps close enough then I have to. I will crack him with this stick, which I really didn't want to do. The second day I was there, and then I think he realized that he was going to get hurt, and so he just walked away. And all these other cops did come by because I think somebody might have told them, because there was other cops on the footposts, all the other rookies, and I was explaining it and they were like, all right, it's good, okay, have a good day by And then five minutes later people are asking me directions like this never happened. So things get thrown at you very fast, and you have to handle it very fast.

Well, everybody goes to patrol right outside the It's not like the movies. Movies got it all wrong. And it's in the NYPD. I could speak for that. Everybody goes right to patrol. You don't really get in a car. It's there's so many of us. They put you on foot posts, so they give you these crappy posts that nobody else wants to take. Guarding the prisoners, bad accidents. You got to wait. I mean you mentioned in your book the crime scene you're always standing outside the tape, not really inside. Yeah, you never really get inside the tape, but you do. But you're standing outside the tape, and you know, people are walking up to you and asking you a questions. You're like, I don't know. I was just put at the tape edge. Just don't go through. I don't have an answer for you. And so the first week I was there, I don't think I saw a car. I saw my sergeant, and you know, like the first day or two, I think it was my In the second day I was there, I was on a foot post and I witnessed a fight in the street. But it was a very busy foot post, and you know, this was everybody gets on the train there and they head into the city. And I witnessed a fight and I was like, all right, guys, you go this way, you go that way. And then one guy got on his bicycle and left the other guy, you know, in front of everybody, because a crowd gathered, and I guess the guy wanted to show up for the crowd. You know. He rips his shirt open and he's telling me to shoot him, and I'm like, you know, wow, this this came fast, you know. So I'm like, you know, I was in college waiting on tables a year ago, and this is what I'm doing right now. So the guy's yelling at me to shoot shoot him, and then he had already I think, hit somebody with a garbage pail, you know, metal garbage pail. So it was an interesting situation. So I actually stepped back because I'm thinking really fast, like wow, you know, there's no academy instructor here. This is on me to handle it. So he took a step towards me. I took out my night stick, and you know, I did the whole academy pose, but it behind my and my mind's race and saying, well, I'm not obviously not gonna shoot him, but if he steps close enough then I have to. I will crack him with this stick, which I really didn't want to do. The second day I was there, and then I think he realized that he was going to get hurt, and so he just walked away. And all these other cops did come by because I think somebody might have told them, because there was other cops on the footposts, all the other rookies, and I was explaining it and they were like, all right, it's good, okay, have a good day by And then five minutes later people are asking me directions like this never happened. So things get thrown at you very fast, and you have to handle it very fast.

You need to understand, Yeah, the way you describe that, like it's a significant thing, it's an incident that you've been confronted with so early in your career. But you're quite right. The other cops just, well, that's just to die in the die in the place. Sure, But and it is about ye know, if you go in and I think what you demonstrate that they're policing isn't black and white, Like you've got to be able to navigate your way through situations like yeah, if someone came back, you're like that you're entitled to hit him. But if you can de escalate, that's the type of thing that you've got to try to do as a police officer. Did you have role models where the people that you looked up to and thought, that's the type of cop I want to be, Like, I'm gonna what he or she's doing, That's who I want to learn from.

You need to understand, Yeah, the way you describe that, like it's a significant thing, it's an incident that you've been confronted with so early in your career. But you're quite right. The other cops just, well, that's just to die in the die in the place. Sure, But and it is about ye know, if you go in and I think what you demonstrate that they're policing isn't black and white, Like you've got to be able to navigate your way through situations like yeah, if someone came back, you're like that you're entitled to hit him. But if you can de escalate, that's the type of thing that you've got to try to do as a police officer. Did you have role models where the people that you looked up to and thought, that's the type of cop I want to be, Like, I'm gonna what he or she's doing, That's who I want to learn from.

Yeah, because there's so many, you know, members of the I think thirty of us went to the precinct from the academy so and there was already probably one hundred something already there. So you start to see people's personalities, and people come from all walks of life. In the NYPD, you get the business type of person, you get the tough, gay type of person, you get the social worker, you get all tapes. So I started to notice who really could de escalate a situation. I noticed who could talk somebody down. I noticed who could, you know, see a situation and see something wrong. There was times I worked with some offices that maybe didn't have a lot of time on but one or two years, and they would catch something very quickly, like catch something as in, we had an accident on the street, and all these people started walking up to me talking to me. So I was surprised, like, there's a car accident, Why are people interested in talking to me? And we sit in the car and he goes roll the window up. He goes, they're all paid. This guy's paying them to be witnesses. I would have never thought of that, but this cop with two years on just caught onto it. All right, they're paid witnesses. So I'm rolling the window down and I'm thinking, you know, he didn't tell me how to handle this, So I'm taking their names and writing it down. After about the third person, I'm like, I think I got enough witnesses. So I realized that, all right, I just got to write these names down to make it look good. If this motorist wants to pay them, that's on him, but I don't have to put them in the report. We're just making the report for the accident. So I saw talent at places that every day within police work, and you learn from those situations, and that helps you throughout your career because you will handle that same situation again. And I've been on the other end when I was the one driving, and I saw the paid witnesses step forward, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Great, you want to help out a total stranger and give a statement. Okay, I'll take your statement.

Yeah, because there's so many, you know, members of the I think thirty of us went to the precinct from the academy so and there was already probably one hundred something already there. So you start to see people's personalities, and people come from all walks of life. In the NYPD, you get the business type of person, you get the tough, gay type of person, you get the social worker, you get all tapes. So I started to notice who really could de escalate a situation. I noticed who could talk somebody down. I noticed who could, you know, see a situation and see something wrong. There was times I worked with some offices that maybe didn't have a lot of time on but one or two years, and they would catch something very quickly, like catch something as in, we had an accident on the street, and all these people started walking up to me talking to me. So I was surprised, like, there's a car accident, Why are people interested in talking to me? And we sit in the car and he goes roll the window up. He goes, they're all paid. This guy's paying them to be witnesses. I would have never thought of that, but this cop with two years on just caught onto it. All right, they're paid witnesses. So I'm rolling the window down and I'm thinking, you know, he didn't tell me how to handle this, So I'm taking their names and writing it down. After about the third person, I'm like, I think I got enough witnesses. So I realized that, all right, I just got to write these names down to make it look good. If this motorist wants to pay them, that's on him, but I don't have to put them in the report. We're just making the report for the accident. So I saw talent at places that every day within police work, and you learn from those situations, and that helps you throughout your career because you will handle that same situation again. And I've been on the other end when I was the one driving, and I saw the paid witnesses step forward, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Great, you want to help out a total stranger and give a statement. Okay, I'll take your statement.

Yeah, it's interesting. But what you said there, you learn and you build up your experience. I found that I learned something in police in every single day I came to work. And the more experience you had when you were confronted with something, it's not sort of and I think this is where you see these battle hardened old cops that nothing's going to FaZe and because they've probably been there, done that soon it before. And that's just in that experience that you've built up and all the little little I won't say tricks, but the instinct you have for situations that you pick up the longer you spend in the job. Did you have a direction you wanted to go in policing? Was there? Did you want to go into investigations or tactical or what was your interest?

Yeah, it's interesting. But what you said there, you learn and you build up your experience. I found that I learned something in police in every single day I came to work. And the more experience you had when you were confronted with something, it's not sort of and I think this is where you see these battle hardened old cops that nothing's going to FaZe and because they've probably been there, done that soon it before. And that's just in that experience that you've built up and all the little little I won't say tricks, but the instinct you have for situations that you pick up the longer you spend in the job. Did you have a direction you wanted to go in policing? Was there? Did you want to go into investigations or tactical or what was your interest?

Early on? AWD, you know, it's it, that's it. We were doing our work and then we would handle reports. We'd make reports, so we go to situations and a lot of times I would take these reports for you know, like a really bad robbery that just happened and somebody was assaulted nothing like murder or nothing like that. I would take these reports and I would call my supervisor say, yeah, this is a legit robbery. This person was robbed, they're injured. Here's the description, here's that. And I would take the report. And so I was like, all right, great, your report's done. All right, drop it off in the priests and bring it to the detectives upstairs. And I would go in and I would bring it to the detectives upstairs. And you know, it was it was like the movies to me. I walked into this detective squad and it was the old fan blowing. You know, no one cleaned the fan in five years. There was you know, a couple of typewriters typing away because this was the nineties. There was a couple of giant computers. And then you got a cop what is you know, a detective with his you know tie half on, and he's looking at you like, why are you coming in this here to talk to us? And yeah, you were a little nervous, but you can't show it to them. See you hand them the report and they're like, robbery kid, huh what do you got? And they're like oh wow. And then all of a sudden, I would hear them talking and I'm like, I think these guys already know who did this robbery. They would look at the report and go I had a feeling. I watched their wheel spin and I'm like, They're gonna go out and grab this guy now. And I'm like, wow, you know what these detectives. They're doing something here that's beyond patrol. And I knew very early on I was going into detective bureau.

Early on? AWD, you know, it's it, that's it. We were doing our work and then we would handle reports. We'd make reports, so we go to situations and a lot of times I would take these reports for you know, like a really bad robbery that just happened and somebody was assaulted nothing like murder or nothing like that. I would take these reports and I would call my supervisor say, yeah, this is a legit robbery. This person was robbed, they're injured. Here's the description, here's that. And I would take the report. And so I was like, all right, great, your report's done. All right, drop it off in the priests and bring it to the detectives upstairs. And I would go in and I would bring it to the detectives upstairs. And you know, it was it was like the movies to me. I walked into this detective squad and it was the old fan blowing. You know, no one cleaned the fan in five years. There was you know, a couple of typewriters typing away because this was the nineties. There was a couple of giant computers. And then you got a cop what is you know, a detective with his you know tie half on, and he's looking at you like, why are you coming in this here to talk to us? And yeah, you were a little nervous, but you can't show it to them. See you hand them the report and they're like, robbery kid, huh what do you got? And they're like oh wow. And then all of a sudden, I would hear them talking and I'm like, I think these guys already know who did this robbery. They would look at the report and go I had a feeling. I watched their wheel spin and I'm like, They're gonna go out and grab this guy now. And I'm like, wow, you know what these detectives. They're doing something here that's beyond patrol. And I knew very early on I was going into detective bureau.

Yeah. The way you describe that, John, it is so similar to my experience. You're young, you're keen, you're in uniform, as we call it over here, and you get that report and you've got to get the detective's office, and it was intimidating just to walk in there. Why it was intimidating, I don't know, but at first they're the detectives very much. So you just described what. I'd walk into the office of typewriters. There'd be ashtrays, they'd be people with their feet up on the desk. Sometimes they'd be playing cards. If you go in there at lunchtime and it's almost look at you, what what do you want? And you walk out you feel humiliated, but quite curious about what's going on in there, so I understand where you're coming from, but it has has an attraction. Okay, let's talk about well fast forwar, because I want to come back and talk in depth, and we'll probably do that in part two about your career and different different things that you saw and did, and investigations that you're on, in particular missing persons. I'm very curious about having a chat with you about that. How long had you been in the cops before September.

Yeah. The way you describe that, John, it is so similar to my experience. You're young, you're keen, you're in uniform, as we call it over here, and you get that report and you've got to get the detective's office, and it was intimidating just to walk in there. Why it was intimidating, I don't know, but at first they're the detectives very much. So you just described what. I'd walk into the office of typewriters. There'd be ashtrays, they'd be people with their feet up on the desk. Sometimes they'd be playing cards. If you go in there at lunchtime and it's almost look at you, what what do you want? And you walk out you feel humiliated, but quite curious about what's going on in there, so I understand where you're coming from, but it has has an attraction. Okay, let's talk about well fast forwar, because I want to come back and talk in depth, and we'll probably do that in part two about your career and different different things that you saw and did, and investigations that you're on, in particular missing persons. I'm very curious about having a chat with you about that. How long had you been in the cops before September.

Eleventh, ninety three to two one? Nine years?

Eleventh, ninety three to two one? Nine years?

Nine years? Okay, so almost at that veteran stage. You're in an experienced police officer. You've been there, done that, seeing things. You told us at the start of the podcast when you heard that explosion, then you saw someone look out and call you to the window. Can you take us from there? Because to get the first hand we watched it over here obviously, as the whole world did, but to have someone that was on the ground and experience what was going in there, the chaos and the panic and everything else that goes into play on that day, just take us through it if you could.

Nine years? Okay, so almost at that veteran stage. You're in an experienced police officer. You've been there, done that, seeing things. You told us at the start of the podcast when you heard that explosion, then you saw someone look out and call you to the window. Can you take us from there? Because to get the first hand we watched it over here obviously, as the whole world did, but to have someone that was on the ground and experience what was going in there, the chaos and the panic and everything else that goes into play on that day, just take us through it if you could.

Sure I could take it through it. I remember that day. I remember everything about it. There's like every little minute detail. Maybe because I was rating at the time and I wrote about it, but either way, I could remember that entire day. I remembered when I heard that explosion, that sound didn't sound natural, not that explosion sound should, but it definitely sounded something was really off with this. And when the other supervisor yelled at the window, of course, human nature, you've got to go see what's going on. So I went to the window and I saw one of the towers and I saw a hole in it, and I saw it looked like destruction, like a black hole in there. And one the first thing I noticed was there was papers shooting out of the hole in the building. Not only were they shooting out, they were shooting straight out and going straight up. I guess the wind or something. I don't know. I didn't see any flames yet. So I looked at it and I said, this is no accident. This is a bomb. Somebody put a bomb in that building, because you know, don't forget, you know, somebody put a bomb in the building in nineteen ninety two in the basement. So we were told about that in the academy. That happened and wasn't far off from people's memory at that time, so I knew it was no accident. I said, what do I gotta do. The first thing I said is this was two thousand and one. I didn't I have a cell phone. So if any of you listeners know what it's like to not have a cell phone, it's a different time. It was no cell phones. I had to go to a payphone, and the only payphone was downstairs in the lobby. Because my wife had worked in Midtown Manhattan, I knew I had to call her because you know, I would assume something else would happen. So I went to the payphone, and you know, old school, I took the court or put it in the phone dial toub work number, and she got on the phone like, Hi, I'm like, somebody just put a bomb in the tower. So she paused and she said what I said, somebody put a bomb in tower and I didn't know it was yet, I just assumed it was. And she's like, oh my gosh, what happened. So she had the TV on and it was live on TV. Now I couldn't watch TV because we didn't have one there and nobody had cell phones yet. Nobody had iPhones. So I remember what I told her, and this will be a big part to the story. I said, Okay, I'm very close to the towers. I said, they're going to send us there. After I'm done at the towers, I'll call you back. And I left it at that, and then I went back upstairs, walked up the stairs, and I went back and then I saw more people at the window. Other people from the building had I guess we had one of the better views, if you could call it, because we were directly in front of it and you had to look straight and up. I think I was on the ninth of the eleventh floor of my building. And then as I'm looking out, I see something coming from across the sky. And well before that, I had another part to the story. As I was watching the first tower, I saw stuff falling from the building, and I was like, wow, debris falling. And I start a helicopter. So I'm like, what's falling from the towers? And as I watched closer. I wrote about this a lot in the book, and I got a little more elaborate. There was no debris falling. I was watching people jumping from the towers and I just couldn't believe that that's what I was witnessing, and I was like, Wow, that's when reality hit. I says, there are people in those towers that are not going to make it home today. So I had to step back. I couldn't watch any further. I wrote more about it in the book, some of the images that I still think about.

Sure I could take it through it. I remember that day. I remember everything about it. There's like every little minute detail. Maybe because I was rating at the time and I wrote about it, but either way, I could remember that entire day. I remembered when I heard that explosion, that sound didn't sound natural, not that explosion sound should, but it definitely sounded something was really off with this. And when the other supervisor yelled at the window, of course, human nature, you've got to go see what's going on. So I went to the window and I saw one of the towers and I saw a hole in it, and I saw it looked like destruction, like a black hole in there. And one the first thing I noticed was there was papers shooting out of the hole in the building. Not only were they shooting out, they were shooting straight out and going straight up. I guess the wind or something. I don't know. I didn't see any flames yet. So I looked at it and I said, this is no accident. This is a bomb. Somebody put a bomb in that building, because you know, don't forget, you know, somebody put a bomb in the building in nineteen ninety two in the basement. So we were told about that in the academy. That happened and wasn't far off from people's memory at that time, so I knew it was no accident. I said, what do I gotta do. The first thing I said is this was two thousand and one. I didn't I have a cell phone. So if any of you listeners know what it's like to not have a cell phone, it's a different time. It was no cell phones. I had to go to a payphone, and the only payphone was downstairs in the lobby. Because my wife had worked in Midtown Manhattan, I knew I had to call her because you know, I would assume something else would happen. So I went to the payphone, and you know, old school, I took the court or put it in the phone dial toub work number, and she got on the phone like, Hi, I'm like, somebody just put a bomb in the tower. So she paused and she said what I said, somebody put a bomb in tower and I didn't know it was yet, I just assumed it was. And she's like, oh my gosh, what happened. So she had the TV on and it was live on TV. Now I couldn't watch TV because we didn't have one there and nobody had cell phones yet. Nobody had iPhones. So I remember what I told her, and this will be a big part to the story. I said, Okay, I'm very close to the towers. I said, they're going to send us there. After I'm done at the towers, I'll call you back. And I left it at that, and then I went back upstairs, walked up the stairs, and I went back and then I saw more people at the window. Other people from the building had I guess we had one of the better views, if you could call it, because we were directly in front of it and you had to look straight and up. I think I was on the ninth of the eleventh floor of my building. And then as I'm looking out, I see something coming from across the sky. And well before that, I had another part to the story. As I was watching the first tower, I saw stuff falling from the building, and I was like, wow, debris falling. And I start a helicopter. So I'm like, what's falling from the towers? And as I watched closer. I wrote about this a lot in the book, and I got a little more elaborate. There was no debris falling. I was watching people jumping from the towers and I just couldn't believe that that's what I was witnessing, and I was like, Wow, that's when reality hit. I says, there are people in those towers that are not going to make it home today. So I had to step back. I couldn't watch any further. I wrote more about it in the book, some of the images that I still think about.

Just on that. I've pulled out a quote from your book about that, because it's as bout as confronting as a thing that you could see, and as a cop, you've seen a lot of stuff, but that I just read out a short, short passage here from your piece you wrote about. I soon horrified that what I was witnessing. People were jumping from the tower. Tiny figures with arms and legs flailing, were hurtling themselves out of the smoke filled windows. Some looked as if they were doing somersaults down the side of the building. I was now frozen with a dead stare at those towers. Yeah, what can you say about that? This is something people shouldn't see.

Just on that. I've pulled out a quote from your book about that, because it's as bout as confronting as a thing that you could see, and as a cop, you've seen a lot of stuff, but that I just read out a short, short passage here from your piece you wrote about. I soon horrified that what I was witnessing. People were jumping from the tower. Tiny figures with arms and legs flailing, were hurtling themselves out of the smoke filled windows. Some looked as if they were doing somersaults down the side of the building. I was now frozen with a dead stare at those towers. Yeah, what can you say about that? This is something people shouldn't see.

No, it's definitely not something people's and it's nothing I ever believed they would see. It was unbelievable, and I didn't know it was going to continue. So I was watching that, and you know, it's something that you just can't it's already in your memory and it's like an accident. You just got to eventually stop looking. So I went back to my desk and I sat down and I just tried to get my composure. And then I said to myself, this is the same desk that only twenty minutes ago, I was ready to talk to my lieutenant about some bull crap report.

No, it's definitely not something people's and it's nothing I ever believed they would see. It was unbelievable, and I didn't know it was going to continue. So I was watching that, and you know, it's something that you just can't it's already in your memory and it's like an accident. You just got to eventually stop looking. So I went back to my desk and I sat down and I just tried to get my composure. And then I said to myself, this is the same desk that only twenty minutes ago, I was ready to talk to my lieutenant about some bull crap report.

I'm like, that was a big issue in your life.

I'm like, that was a big issue in your life.

Yeah, everything, yeah, yeah, everything just got turned upside down. And so sure enough, I went back to the window. And as I got back to the window, what I was saying earlier is I saw something coming from across the sky. As I looked out the window and the towers were in front of me. So I did not see the actual plane, but I saw I don't know what it's called, when the wings have the uh the jet stream going down and it makes like a smoke line. I saw the two smoke lines coming across the city, and I was like, I went to say, what is And before I said that, I saw it hit the rear of the building. And this was the other tower that wasn't struck the second plot second plane, and not only did it hit the building, it went into it and shot out the the front. I saw pieces of it shootout the front, and I was frozen. And then with strangers, I didn't hear anything, and then all of a sudden, I heard the boom again, different sounding this time, but I heard it. And the shockwave hit like five seconds later, and the building my windows were shaking where I was standing, and I was like everything. I would describe it like a movie that you could not hit pause. It was like I was being forced to watch a movie I didn't want to sit through and I could not hit pause. That's the best I could describe it. And I looked to the left, I looked at the right. I said, we gotta get out of this building. I said, because I would assume that something else was coming, and I still didn't know what it was. Even though I saw I could to explain it now at the time, I really didn't comprehend it. It wasn't until later, so I went to the stairs. I knew enough not to take the elevator. I learned enough. You don't get in elevators in bad situation. The last thing I wanted to do is stuck in an elevator. So I went to the steps, and I remembered there was two detectives and they had high heels on and they were moving it down those stairs, and I ran with them, and I remember touching the handrail a few times, but I don't remember touching the steps.

Yeah, everything, yeah, yeah, everything just got turned upside down. And so sure enough, I went back to the window. And as I got back to the window, what I was saying earlier is I saw something coming from across the sky. As I looked out the window and the towers were in front of me. So I did not see the actual plane, but I saw I don't know what it's called, when the wings have the uh the jet stream going down and it makes like a smoke line. I saw the two smoke lines coming across the city, and I was like, I went to say, what is And before I said that, I saw it hit the rear of the building. And this was the other tower that wasn't struck the second plot second plane, and not only did it hit the building, it went into it and shot out the the front. I saw pieces of it shootout the front, and I was frozen. And then with strangers, I didn't hear anything, and then all of a sudden, I heard the boom again, different sounding this time, but I heard it. And the shockwave hit like five seconds later, and the building my windows were shaking where I was standing, and I was like everything. I would describe it like a movie that you could not hit pause. It was like I was being forced to watch a movie I didn't want to sit through and I could not hit pause. That's the best I could describe it. And I looked to the left, I looked at the right. I said, we gotta get out of this building. I said, because I would assume that something else was coming, and I still didn't know what it was. Even though I saw I could to explain it now at the time, I really didn't comprehend it. It wasn't until later, so I went to the stairs. I knew enough not to take the elevator. I learned enough. You don't get in elevators in bad situation. The last thing I wanted to do is stuck in an elevator. So I went to the steps, and I remembered there was two detectives and they had high heels on and they were moving it down those stairs, and I ran with them, and I remember touching the handrail a few times, but I don't remember touching the steps.

Man.

Man.

I went down those nine flights in record speed, and I got to the front of the building, and then I ran past that pay phone I was at and then I saw I saw like chaos in front of the building. I saw people running in different directions, and I saw some cops briefly talking and running towards the towers, and I saw other cops dumbfounded. I saw some police recruits just not knowing what to do. And there was a police recruit and she sat on the floor and cried, and I walked over to her. I said, just get up, just stand up, and that's all I could tell. I had nothing else to tell her. I didn't know what to say, so I really know what to do. When I was watching the towers, and it was, like I said, there was mobs of people besides the building I was in. It seems like all Lower Manhattan instantly was out. It was like an ant hole and you just shook it up and all the ants took off. So a guy who worked with came up to me, goes, John, where are you going? I said, I don't know. He goes, what do you want to do? I said, listen, let's get a little uptown where there's no big buildings and we'll figure it out. So he goes, all right. So we did a very fast walk uptown. And as we were walking uptown, there was a lot of people to left to me, a lot of people to the right of me, and they were all walking and we were walking fast. And there's a federal courthouse in Low Manhattan with big giant Gothic cement steps. I was by the Federal Courthouse and the floor started rumbling, so I didn't know what it was. I thought something was coming from the sky, so I looked around. I didn't see nothing, but the floor is rumbling under my feet, and so instantly I dove under a parked car and I hit like next to the wheelwell, and then there was a woman under the car. I don't know if she followed me and doved or she was already there, and she was an elderly woman and we looked at each other and she had fear in her face and I couldn't. I didn't know what to tell her, and she I don't even know if she knew as a cop because I didn't have uniform on. I had my kakis on in my polo shirt. And a man walked by and looked at me and goes, what are you doing? It's just a subway. I'm like what. So I looked outside the wheel well and I saw the smoke coming from Lower Manhattan. Now I don't it's not smoke. This was a curtain of debris. It was thick, it was black, it was ugly, it was rolling, and it was wavy, and it was coming up the block towards us. So as I looked, that guy that just said that to me had his briefcase and he was hauling it down the street, he took off. You I think he realized that it was no subway. So I got up and I didn't know what to do. I just ran. So I ran north. I saw the guy worked within the crowd and I lost them. And I'm a pretty quick runner. I'm athletic. I was moving. I had my dress shoes on, but I was moving, you know. And like I said, I had my polo shirt on. I was ready to go. So I ran uptown and all of a sudden, nothing happened behind me. It was quiet. I saw the smoke in the debris, but it was in the distance, and it was like a wall, like if you look downtown, you could see a wall of smoke and just people from that direction walking towards you. I'm not talking people a few, I'm talking in the thousands walking in my direction. So the cop and me said, John, don't go in the subway. Stay where you're at. And there was a woman standing next to me, and I was just talking to her briefly and I said, I don't know what's going on today, but you are never going to forget to today. She goes, no, I'm not and just walked away. And then something told me to go back. So I saw these crowds of people in the thousands walking towards me, and I walked downtown while everybody was walking uptown. So I said, I have to get back to my building. I wasn't that far. I was walking distance, couldn't see it. I ran pretty far. So as I was walking, people started letting me through. I guess they just knew I had to get through. Maybe they knew it I was a cop. I don't know. So people were partying and I was walking, and I was walking through the crowd, and I saw a woman in my building. She was a civilian, and I said, what's going on with police plaza? She goes, no, everybody just ran out of a building. There's nobody in there. So I said okay, and I kept walking. So, like I said, there was a partying in the crowd, and I saw that Federal courthouse. When I got to the Federal Courthouse, I heard screaming and yelling, actually not screaming, and there was a gentleman trying to get back in the building, and the court offices were in full uniform. I watched them physically throw him down the stairs. He rolled down the cement stairs right in front of me, landed on the floor in front of me, and he just brushed himself off and wan one direction. And then the court offices ran towards me and they said, where you going. You can't go downtown. So I took out my identification under my shirt showed it to him. They're like, okay, they said, why don't you go behind the building? So I said, all right, So I actually took a short cut, went behind the building, and I went back to one police plaza. But I didn't get directly back to one police police plaza. I'm not exactly sure how it ended up here, but the smoke was to the right of me, and like I said earlier, it was not smoke. This was a giant black curtain.