I Catch Killers with Gary JubelinHidden pain of an unsolved murder: Jacinta Price Pt.1
Jacinta Price’s aunt went missing more than 40 years ago. To this day, it’s a mystery that remains unsolved. From long lost family secrets to the personal toll of being a polarising figure, Jacinta sits down with Gary Jubelin to discuss everything from her upbringing to youth crime, and why she’ll never lose hope.
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The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see aside of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world today, I spake, We've just senter Price. I think it's fair to say Just Center is a controversial character, an Aboriginal lady who is a senator in Federal Parliament and has been the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs. It's twenty twenty three. Her views on Aboriginal issues often caused division, but as you'll find out today, she's prepared to stand by her comments. We spoke about a life and her views on a wide range of Indigenous issues. Let's see what you think about Senator just Center Price Ciner. I've followed your career for a long time. You're not hard to hard to miss.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think I'm all over the place. I can't even escape myself.
And look, I think the type of topics you're talking about, mayors, you're talking about, it's polarizing and they're difficult. Conversations that you have in the position that you take on certain issues are always always hard. I'm going to ask a personal question first up? What toll has it taken on you? People would recognize you as the voice of the referendum of supporting the no vote and different sences that you've taken. What toll has it taken on you personally?
Well, there's a sense of not feeling like my life is my own. I guess I know that my kids and my husband probably feel that I'm no longer you know, this sort of care free, more relaxed person than what I used to be. And in many ways sometimes they can see me as distant because my head is so full of what's going on. You know what, I'm what the latest challenge is, the latest thing I'm trying to find an answer for, and those sorts of things. And yeah, there's there's that sort of sense of yeah, not feeling like my life is my own anymore.
I understand that. Do you have the ability to switch off when you when you can step boy, when you're with family and friends?
I do. I do, And sometimes, like again, my family will say, you know your armor's up, you need to take your armor off. Go home and take your armor off. And it can be hard to get into that right away. And but yeah, look, I love being able to chill out at home, be mum, you know, copper roasting from my kids and my husband, be brought back down to earth again. And yeah, it's my favorite favorite thing to do, even just being at home doing the dishes, like feeling like a normal person.
It's good to dumb things down a little bit sometimes, isn't it.
Ye?
Your pressure pressure pressure, Okay, this is my escape. I can be who I want to be there, just on that. There's so much to talk about. Congratulations on your book too, it's a it's an interesting read. You've certainly lived a life.
Yeah, thank you, it's been. It's been an credible journey and a very daunting at times process and especially on the cusp of its release, knowing just how much of my life I guess I'd put out there for the public to learn about and how thinking of how that might be received as well as but you know, cathartic at times, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have been able to do it well.
Your public profile is very much linked to your Indigenous background, and quite often you're the person called in to make comments. Do you when you speak as an Aboriginal lady, do you feel that you're speaking for all Aboriginal people from your life experience.
Yeah, No, definitely from my life experience. And that's a thing, right. I Mean, it's a funny situation because when we look at other people like we don't we don't see a white fellow speaking and go, oh, they're speaking on behalf of all white fellows, you know. But but for Indigenous Australians it's a funny sort of position because on one hand, you're going, you know, you've got your detractors, so you don't speak on behalf of me. I was like, well, actually, never claim to speak on behalf of you. But then you're told that you know, if you're not saying what they what your detractors want to hear, then you're a sellout or you're a traitor. Well, so what is it you know? Am I speaking? Am I supposed to be speaking on behalf of you? Or not? But ultimately what I my lived experience and coming from being able to be the voice for those that want me to be their voice, those those that don't get the opportunity to be heard and really vulnerable marginalized people that need need their truth to be heard. That's that's really you know who I'm about speaking on behalf of and for in order to make a positive difference in their lives and to save lives. Really, that's really what it's about. And let's face it, the truth is bloody confronting, but it's necessary to put out there to overcome our great challenges.
Well, we're going to break it down the challenges and the positions you take on a lot of issues. But I can see the conundrum you've got there that you don't speak for all of us. But if you speak, why you're speaking on behalf And I'll chime in as the white fellow at the table here too. There is a perception. There is a perception that oh, you're Aboriginal, therefore you're speaking for other Aboriginals, and like, is it correct me if I'm wrong? But two hundred and fifty different nations across the continent.
Well yeah, look, I mean in terms of language groups that once upon a time there were of a five hundred languages spoken across the continent. And you know there's like a handful still around now as first languages. But yeah, so we're talking different, you know, culturally linguistically diverse people right across this continent.
Yeah, at one stage, okay, well, look diving into and we've got so much to talk about. Your life, your upbringing, you stepping into parliament, your life is a politician, your thoughts on that world, which is probably more confronting than the indigenous world in different ways, or more divisive. But I think a good way to launch into it your maiden speech at Parliament and it was two thy and twenty two. I've just pulled an extract out from the maiden speech. I'll read it through and then we'll break down some things there. If that's okay. My vision, my hope, my goal is that we can affect change it we'll see women, children and other victims in these communities become as safe as any of those living in Sydney, Melbourne or any other Australian city. My goal is to halt the pointless virtue signaling and focus on solutions that bring real change that changes the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens, Solutions that give them real lives, not the enduring nightmare of violence and terror that they currently live. It is not good enough that the streets of our Northern Territory towns and other towns across regional Australia have gangs of children age from six to sixteen wandering and around with no adult supervision in the early hours of the morning. It's not good enough that almost all of these children have witnessed or been subject to normalized alcohol abuse, domestic family and sexual violence throughout their young lives, and is the reason for their presence on our streets. Such neglecting great numbers would not be accepted in prosperous suburbs of any of our capital cities. Extract from your speech, you can't really argue with the sentiment there.
Yeah right, I mean it's true why we're Australia is an incredibly tolerant nation, but we can be tolerant to a fault, to the point that you know that we did do have children as young as six and six to sixteen on our streets late at night, at the early hours of the morning, that you know, those circumstances continue in twenty twenty five. And when we contrast that and see a lot of you know, a lot of a lot of people living in our in our in our cities. When they do visit places like Alice Springs or you know, remote communities, there is a stark contrast in lives, in the way lives are lived, and in many ways it's a real culture shock as well. But this is just reality for us in places like our springs and remote communities, and that's what needs to be better understood and we shouldn't excuse it. We should never excuse use it, or you know, especially especially when we want to. I mean, I seek to hold accountable perpetrators within my own family, within my own community, but for some reason that's frowned upon to do so because our perpetrators are also framed as victims of colonization. But that doesn't help the situation. So yeah, again it's about confronting reality and demonstrating to the rest of the country, this is the reality of what goes on in these places where we experience the highest rates of marginalization in the country.
Right, understanding that generational trauma. Where As yeah, it could be said as an excuse, but your your position, if I understand, is you want to break the cycle. It's got to stop somewhere totally.
Look, you know, trauma is as a human experience and it doesn't discriminate like human beings around the globe have experienced trauma and intergenerational trauma if you like. So why is it that it I guess we allow it in some ways in the indigenous community to prevent us from progressing as individuals in our own right. You know, yes, we have to acknowledge it and realize that it's there and it exists. But we also have to acknowledge that we as human beings and individuals, without considering our racial heritage or anything like that, are capable of wonderful, great things, and there is We're empowered when we take responsibility not just for our own circumstances, but when we take responsibility for how we are within our own families and communities at the same time. That is what that's where empowerment comes from, as personal responsibility. A lot of the time, the argument, the political argument, is that we don't have to because it's colonization's fault and those that have stood to gain from colonization are somehow also responsible. But we've all gained something from colonization. As much as it has played a part in the detriment of Indigenous Australians, they're also there are also aspects that we have been able to progress forward from at the same time.
Okay, in that, just from that quote, the lives of Australia's most vulnerable citizens, you're referring in that in context, in full context, you're referring to Indigenous people.
But yes, talking best and I guess in that talking about marginalized Indigenous Australians too, because you know, as I've always said, we're not just marginalized because of our racial heritage. There are some Indigenous Australians doing, living very successful lives and a growing middle class. But I'm talking specifically about marginalized Indigenous Australians.
Okay, why can you offer them? It's a real broad question, and I'll warn you I'm probably going to ask some dumb questions. But it's such absolutely, it's such a complex issue and looking at it from the outside, and I've been involved in Indigenous matters, but I'm a white guy and I never speak with great knowledge. I speak with experiences what I've seen. But so if I ask some dumb questions, just cut me some latitude on this. But we'll try and we'll try and get people across to understand.
It's all about understanding.
Talking about So why do you think the Indigenous community looked at there's our vulnerable citizens in the country.
Well, I mean, in terms of our most marginalized, we experienced the highest rates of domestic and family violence, of sexual abuse, of neglect, of all those things, the lowest rates of you know, education, and lowest rates of employment. That's that's the most marginalized in this country are predominantly Indigenous Australians. And in my previous work as part of the Center for Independent Studies heading up the Indigenous Research Program, what we uncovered was that our most marginalized exist in regional and remote parts of this country, but particularly so more acutely within places like the Northern Territory, Western Australia and North Queensland, Far North Queensland. And so for me, it's really important to identify who they are, which things like Closing the Gap Report and all these initiatives don't necessarily prioritize the needs of our most marginalized, but take a blanket approach toward Indigenous Australians to suggest that we're all marginalized and just because we're indigenous, right, And as I say, we've got to be far more focused and far more honest about how we approach that.
And that type of position I would imagine within the Indigenous community across the board that might bring some conflict to or some pushback.
It does in that an industry has developed out of you know, indigenous direction in Indigenous policy, there is you know, my focus is on well, you know, the figure of thirty three billion dollars being spent on Indigenous affairs was determined I think back in twenty seventeen, and we don't have a current figure on how much that spend is right now, but as I said, it's usually spent on measures to support and advance Indigenous Australians without without saying okay, but who are we actually looking at here? And so an industry has developed out of that. I mean, there are many livelihoods that have been created in that space. There are many organizations that are tasked with improving the lives of marginalized Indigenous Australians that, in my view, many of which are failing. But if I point these things out, I'm going to be targeted, you know, if I if I want to take a more honest approach to this matter, I will be targeted because there are those who are going to feel threatened by the fact that I'm pointing, Well, it's not just governments that are failing, it's those that are funded by governments that are failing. And there is very little accountability in this space. So calling for these things will naturally ensure that I that I have enemies.
And in calling that they just clarify it where the money is not going where it supposedly should go to. Or people who have said creating an industry and I'm guessing here, but it wouldn't just be Aboriginal people are making a profit from it or creating an industry. So when you want it scrutinize, you want it scrutinized across the board, not just the money that's gone to the Blackfellows. Want whoever's got control of this money and how it's been used.
Yeah, whoever's receiving funds that are supposed to go to improving the lives of Indigenous Australians.
Okay, you touched on health, education, crime. What sort of figures are we looking at? And again, it's hard to generalize because we're going back into exactly what you've pointed out where we make mistakes. But it is known that the high incarceration rate as an ex scop, I know the challenges that corrective services, the high incarceration of Indigenous people. Health is a problem, education, employment, the welfare system will relying on welfare. What if you're people that haven't really bored into it, tell them what we're talking about on the scale.
Yeah, yeah, Look, an incarceration is a huge issue, but sometimes I feel like we try to deal with the symptoms and not the causes of the matter. And there's I mean, I can recommend a really good book by Don Born Weatherburn called Arresting Incarceration Pathways out of Indigenous Imprisonment, who headed up the Bureau of criminology here in New South Wales for.
So of him and yeah, yeah, yeah, And.
Basically he identifies that I think it's between sixty five and seventy percent of incarcerated Indigenous men are incarcerated for acts of violence. And I mean, it's it's a horrible truth. But these are cycles, obviously generational cycles. And my argument is that we need to this particular issue because if we address the violence issue, we'll see a dramatic decrease in rates of incarceration amongst Indigenous men, but also Indigenous women. This is increasing in terms of incarceration rates. The reason why Indigenous women are being incarcerated, and and one of an argument that I've always put forward, which I still you know to this day, well I'll always get pushed back on, is the fact that I know from lived experience that in places like where we have the highest rates of DV in the Northern Territory is that in traditional culture violence is accepted, but all small scale societies on the face of the earth used violence as a means of social control. And for us in Central Australia, the frontier was not that long ago. My grandparents first saw white fellows in their early adolescence. So traditional culture that accepted violence as a means of social control is partly the reason why we have such high rates of violence, because men, women and children will act out violently because it's accepted in traditional culture. But also there are elements of traditional culture that suggests that women are not as important as men. You know, it's patriarchal society, and if if we don't acknowledge this, we're not going to overcome the DV crisis that we're confronted with. And again in the book, it's lived experience my mother becoming a mother, at being pregnant at thirteen, at a mother at fourteen, and under those circumstances. It's questionable as to how that came about. You know, she won't provide so much detail, but I don't believe that my mother was willingly. You know, she was forced into a relationship with the father of my brother, because in traditional terms, if you have a childhood to an abaginal man, you have to then be married to that man in traditional terms. So there's those elements of traditional culture that play out significantly in the lives of women in places like the Northern Territory and more broadly, they don't have opportunity to speak or have a platform, a media platform, or are often if so, are too scared to talk about the reality of what goes on in communities. And then in the broader context and indigenous affairs, the narrative is that we simply blame colonization for what's going on. And also, as I've been told, you know, I shouldn't speak ill of our own people because that is supposed to then encourage racists toward us. We'll hang on a second. If we take it all back, what we want to do is stop people from losing their lives. Racism is the problem of the racist. It's their mental health issue to deal with. We shouldn't make it ours right. But what we should do is ensure that our most vulnerable, our women and children, are kept safe. And that is my argument. So if it means that we have to highlight the reality of the circumstances, if it means that we have to highlight in traditional culture we do accept violence as a means of social control, but that we shouldn't and have those hard conversations, then that's what I'm doing, and that's what I'm prepared to do, And we should all be prepared to do that.
And saying that, when you explain it that way, it sounds quite reasonable. But the pushback is, well, you disrespecting our culture or this is our business, this is the way we deal things. I think in your book your auntie that disappeared and suspected murder a long time ago, and that was a horrendous situation, but it felt, and I put my hat on as a homicide detective, that no one wanted to to talk about it. There would have been people that could have offered something and chose not to come forth because of the shame of coming forward.
Well absolutely, not just the shame, but probably the circumstances around it. That my aunt's promised husband had already murdered and done time after murdering his first wife, but that under again under customary law, she didn't want to go to that relationship and be forced into it, and she was being forced into it. But under customery law, he had every right to punish her for, you know, not not doing as was her obligation to do, was to go and be his wife. And so those involved in that circumstance that were forcing her into that, we're also doing it on the belief that it was appropriate culturally appropriate to do so. And you know, the saddest part about that whole thing is that her father, who was a very prominent man, my mother's uncle and you know, held up as a revered elder and a land rights activist and all those things, evidently knew what went on, but took that secret to his grave and in that also told a story that she had run away, that she has had eight sons living in Queensland, has eight sons. He he he ensured that that story you know, made the rounds was was, which is part of a cover up as far as i'm co Yeah, that's right, because why would you why would you do that if you in fact you know your daughter is not really alive.
Yeah, it's a it's a sad case. And I know you've still hoped to get get answers. So yeah, good luck, good luck with that. I'm doing what you've probably gets you in the trouble a lot of the times because we're focusing on negative aspects of the culture. But let's say, and quite often I hear you talk about, okay, things like you've just explained, there there's a lot of positives about the culture, and there's some really I can only speak from my experience. I've met some really impressive male elders. Absolutely, some what I would consider good role models.
Yeah. Absolutely. And in my book, you know, I talk a lot about my grandfather and my grandfather's story, and I think my grandfather was revolutionary forward thinker for a man of his time, who embraced change instead of fighting it, if you like, because you know, he knew that life was tough. You know, before white fellows came along, it was killed or be killed in terms of the when you would come across your traditional enemies. You had to live off the land in a very harsh desert environment. And when this change came, he knew had to be he had to be part of it because it meant not just surviving, but thriving. And my grandfather also, I guess I'd get it from him where he pushed back on tradition in that when he and my grandmother got together, my grandmother was already part of a polygamous marriage, was like a third wife, and my grandfather and grandmother wanted to be together, and so my grandfather defied tradition. He copped it a couple of times and got a beating from the traditional promised husband, but in the end he was able to then take my grandmother as his wife. And when he saw that that my mother wanted to make her own choices and fought to have an education, he backed her up in that. You know, he could have very easily said to my mother, look, you, while you've escaped your first marriage, and I wouldn't call it a marriage, you are actually supposed to be traditionally becoming a second wife in the marriage that your older sisters involved in. You need to go to that now if you're not going to be with this horrible, violent individual. But both my mum's traditional promised husband and my grandfather put my mum's wishes before traditional culture. To me, they're the kind of men that are you know, they're all throughout, and they're wonderful men who care and love for their families. And you know, that's why I guess I've always celebrated my grandfather for that, for the man that he was and the love that he gave and the things that he believed in. And there are absolutely a lot of men like that. I know, there are men that think much like I do. But for fear of retribution, you know, they keep that to themselves as well, because men can also be targeted violently. Men are also victims of violence as well good men. So you know, when people try to argue that I paint all of our men as horrible, when all I'm doing is looking at the facts, When all I'm saying is Okay, our kids are experiencing experiencing the highest rates of sexual abuse. To say that doesn't mean to say that all our men are pedophiles. That's not what I'm saying. And in terms of wonderful aspects about culture, you know, I often share those as well, like the fact that you know, I was brought up by my elders to believe that if you are conceived on this country, because what we believe is that you're when you're conceived, your baby spirit has leapt from the ground into your mother's belly, giving you your personal dreaming, your connection to that country by the creator ancestor that created that country. You now are connected to that creative ancestor, that's your personal dreaming. So that anyone who's conceived on this country is also connected to this country spiritually in that way, regardless of racial heritage. You know, that's the part of my culture that I love and I celebrate, which is about being completely inclusive and recognizing others as human beings, not as people divided by race. And that to me is what true reconciliation looks like.
Okay, we've got right into the hard stuff without even finding out a little bit about yourself. So tell us where you were born and what you were just relaying there. I was reading that in your book and I found it fascinating and very educational, so it was interesting.
So my parents were living on Melville Island when I was born, So I was born in Darwin and a week after my birth flew back to the islands and spent spent some few more months there. Mom and dad were there for a few more months before they decided to move to the Kimberly. But given that my conception site comes from Teewee Country and the Mangotolby family pretty much adopted us as family. And I share, you know, the dreaming spirit with the Utika Bay Tikabanger, which is crocodile dreaming clan up on the Tiwi Islands. And so you know, if if I go back there and during ceremony, participate and dance with the crocodile clan. That's my connection to the Tewee Islands, my personal dreamings, my inherited dreamings coming from my Wabury side of the family ung Napa which is rain and warliw fire. And so my responsibility is in Wadbury Country around those choko By stories, so around Nappa and fire random fire. But yeah, so Mum and Dad moved to took another teaching job in the Kimberly and Nunkenbar in community of Nunkolnbar. So I was just a toddler when they took that job. And yeah, we lived in like a little in a caravan basically in that didn't have very good air conditioning and would live through the wet the wet season and under really incredible conditions. Like I just sort of think I could probably never live in the Kimberley like that. Again now understanding in many ways I can't remember because I was a toddler, But how Mum and Dad did that, and especially Mum being a desert woman growing up in a dry climate, yeah, it amazes me. Just before I turned three, Mum and Dad decided to move to Alice Springs, so a bit closer to Yundamu where Mom's from, a bit closer to family. And yeah, I mean all my life I've been spent a lot of time at at under Moves, like a second home, because all my family lived there, you know, spend a lot of time as a kid, would go camping, like mom and Dad would just pick up and we'd be gone out bush or at camping John and find the next lot of rock art that Dad felt like he needed to go and discover, or you know, going out with family and going hunting and with my my aunties and my grandmother and Mum and my cousins just walking around barefoot, you know, out on our country and and yeah, my my, my, my auntie bopping to Goanna's on the head at once because they're mating, you know, and all kinds of wonderful skills. You get two in one that with that if you can come across two goannas like that. But yeah, that was and a lot of my family living in town camps around Alice Springs as well, So a lot of time in in town.
Camps and in the in the town camps, you were seeing good and the bad. A lot of lot of lot of the bad, I would imagine.
Yeah, Like, I mean, I have really happy memories too, in town camps and just being with my cousins and stuff, and but yeah, there's there's some really, it's certainly balanced with some really you know, horrible memories as well. And seeing seeing a woman in my extended family, her little boy running from her because she's completely drunk and emotional and got a knife in her hand, and him my other aunties, you know, grabbing hold of the little fella and comforting him while his mum's standing there stabbing herself in the leg. You know, experiences like that, experiences of as I've mentioned in the book, getting up in the middle of the night and rescuing my family members from you know, drunken violence that's unfolding in the town camp.
Yeah, and that's so all the all those things of what's created the person you are now. I suppose, Yeah, when did you? And we're going to talk about your music career a little bit later. You're not getting getting out of here without that. We'll do that in part too, I think. But what inspired you? The politics? I know your mum was very much in the politics and was a spokesperson and an elder that would offer opinions not the ways of popular opinions. That's a sense I get. What inspired you to get into politics.
Probably the fact that it appeared as though those empowered didn't have a clue as to what was going on in the ground in communities, and you know that lived experience was being sugarcoated or ignored in many ways. And I think, you know, watching this abaginal industry flourish, but without anything any anything significant, any change occurring on the ground. And also I guess knowing that there's some people who perpetrators who were being revered as elders, and think, king, why is that? Why do we do that? And we can't we can't do that? How does that? How does that impact us positively? How what is that? What message does that tell victims in our communities?
Yeah, well, you you bring up a point, and I think one thing and looking at it doesn't matter which culture, which you know, which community, children need to be protected. And I think that's a no brainer. And you know, culture shouldn't override the protection of children. That's a simple philosophy. I also picked up on one of your many documented talks and you've even said it here today, and I like that attitude that prevention is better than cure. So when we're talking about the crime in the streets and kids getting in the trouble, what's your ideas of preventing that? Like diversionary situations like the high incarceration rate. I can talk here generally, but I know Northern Territory it's on another level. For young Indigenous kids.
Incarceration comes down to the failures of the child protection system. You know, it's and there are a number of different failures I believe in the child protection system, you know, just speaking in a committee just before actually about asking questions around the kinship principle and how that's been prioritized for kids and this notion that culture and being connected to country is what should be the priority, Whereas my idea of a priority is upholding the human rights of these kids to be able to live lives safely, you know, not exposed to domestic and family violence and sexual abuse and having their needs met. That should be the priority. But I feel as though the ideology and organizations child protection organizations is that it's more about culture maintaining culture than it is about human rights. But then at the same time, there are failings in the child protection system that regardless of all of that, kids are still not properly their circumstances aren't properly considered. All there's potentially cares in the system that are doing wrong by these kids when they're supposed to be in that system to be protected as well.
Is there and he will throw within the silly white guy comments, but the stolen generation that the way it's portrayed, everyone carries shame with it and different things. One of the articles I read or one of the speeches that you've given you you talked about when you're talking about children, the kinship it should override the protection of the children should override it. Where children are taken from one family and placed into another, taken off of family that they've been placed into because they're not indigenous, and to keep that cultural connection. I can see in an ideal world that would work, but you gave examples where it doesn't work.
Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing is to understand that whole family environment. You know, there are wonderful things about being part of huge Aboriginal families. The fact that there are so many that are prepared to take care of kids. In some circumstances, when it's grandparents, often they're overwhelmed and actually don't have the capacity to take on a lot of kids. And in some ways and in some circumstances, there are still connections with potential predators within families if kids remain in those circumstances. I'm also well aware of circumstances, particularly in the Northern Territory, where children have been put into foster care from when they're a baby, and then they're growing up in the suburbs of you know, places like other Springs, and they are they have special needs, they might be kids with fas D, and so all the health and mental health services available to them, a specialist services available to them are in that environment in the suburbs. And then, you know, they get to the age of five or so, and suddenly somebody who says that they are kin who this child might not even know, a complete stranger to them, living out in a remote community where there is no access to all those services that supports that child's upbringing, suddenly become the care of that kid, and that kid is taken out of that environment that they've only ever known and putting out into a remote community in circumstances where there are known perpetrators in those communities and pedophiles in those communities as well, So those kids are effectively put back in the path of danger. And I know of circumstances where that's been done and those children have been retraumatized, and those children have been you know, abused once more and then having to be taken back out and back with the original foster parents Like this is it's criminal to do that to that child in the first place. And my argument is that I don't care what the racial heritage is of the career for that child. If that child is being loved, cared for, protected and having all their needs met, then that that should override any other decisions. I know of circumstances where some kin will put their hand up because they know that there is a monetary element to it where there's they they then they then have access to payments for that child, but they're not necessarily putting the needs of that child first. And I mean, I know also of indigenous foster parents who are overwhelmed in their circumstances doing a remarkable job as well. So for me, you know, it's about ultimately the protection of that child is it should always be the first priority. And you know, when I talk about faster parents, some of those foster parents have worked in the police force in child abuse, you know, on the front line, so they know who perpetrators are and to be taken care of a child, for that child to be removed from their care, and they've done everything they can to fight the child protection system to say this is wrong, and yet it still occurs. That's where we have major problems.
Okay. In discussions I have with Indigenous communities and just things I'm interested in, they talk about community leads solutions as distinct from government policy. The community want ownership in what's going to impact on them. I know that, and I might be misinterpreted in this, but sometimes you'll criticize for not believing in community lead solutions, but that's a misrepresentation with a.
Yeah, you know, I absolutely believe in community lead because I think it's it's well, it's coming from the community. The community know what's what's going on on the ground within their community, and empowering those organizations to do so is great. But as long as there are checks and balances, as long as they are demonstrating outcomes, as long as there isn't a level of accountability as well involved, as long as you know, because there's you know, there's a number of recent examples of community organized original organizations where their chairperson or a board member has a domestic violence history, and that there's excuses made for those individuals and their positions. So to me, that is that is there's the lowering of expectations in Indigenous affairs and within some of these organizations. But governance is primary. It is so important and if we don't get that right, how do we know that these organizations are delivering as they should? But I don't believe, you know, I think there should be freedom of choice for Indigenous Australians as well, because yes, we should invest in community driven or Aboriginal identified organizations and those sorts of things. But and that was another question that I put to the Productivity Commission today during the Senate hearing, was that is their data that draws a comparison between Aboriginal community lead and mainstream that'd be interesting And there is no data, right, there is no data. So while you know it is it is good to have community led and I just I don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people know how to to better support Aboriginal people. I think we're all humans, and I think as humans and part of a wider community. You know, take for example, addiction is a human condition, and that Western society has developed tools in order to help overcome addiction, and why wouldn't we draw on those tools given it it is a human condition to be able to help all people, including Indigenous Australians, overcome those things. So I just don't believe in the concept that only Aboriginal people know how to help Aboriginal people, because then we just have Asian people just helping Asian people, and white people are helping white people. But we're all people ultimately.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I know those type of comments other people would say, we don't need to be told what to do, we know what to do. Some good community led projects. I've seen Redfern not clean slate and tribal worry it that was I've had Shane Phillips on the podcast before. I'm amazed by the work that they did. And this was when we're talking. Redfern was a volatile place and there was a lot of crime and a heavy indigenous population, and clean slate without prejudice and tribal boxing had some great results. And to this day they're still running a great organization and doing good work. I see that from a cop or ex cops point of view.
Yeah, And look like I know some wonderful organizations like the Glen you know on the Central Coast and like Black Rock in the Hunter doing amazing work to provide employment pathways for prisoners. Like they're absolutely like wonderful programs that are demonstrating that they're providing outcomes and should absolutely be supported. And there's plenty of examples of that right around the country.
Yeah.
So yeah, I mean, I'm not yeah, I never suggest to discount one for the other, but we need a broad range of all of those.
Yeah, Okay, I'm just trying to try to understand because I hear the stuff that oh no, this is what she says and she means this, and so breaking it down the Northern Territory intervention that always gets people's opinions very very emotional about that. It was two thousand and seven where it first started. Do you want to explain what that meant to you? As an Aboriginal person when that came in, because it ran for it was only stopped in twenty twenty two or twenty fifteen. I think they had called it something else, but it ran till twenty twenty two.
So there's still some policies in place as a result of that stronger futures. I think it was then sort of overhauled by labor afterwards, and policies under that came from that initially. And yeah, so when that occurred, it was like breaking the seal. It was like, you know, breaking the glass, the glass ceiling, if you like, because for so long we've known about so many cases of abuse, sexual abuse in remote communities and the little children are sacred. Report was smashing that wide open, which led to the intervention and it's and you know a lot of people demonize it and say that it disempowered Aboriginal people and a lot of the time, well a lot of Aboriginal people and communities are told that they are disempowered by it and power was taken away from them. What they don't realize is that the territory labor government at that time broke down Aboriginal community councils disempowered them and created councils super shires throughout the Northern Territory. And people get that mixed up with the intervention. That wasn't an initiative of the intervention, that was actually a Territory Labor Government initiative which in fact a current Minister for Indigenous Astraliansmulandarry McCarthy was part of, and our current member for Lingiari, Marion Scrimmagaw was part of as well. So a lot of people felt disempowered by that change to the power structure in the Northern Territory. It took jobs away from Indigenous people in those communities when they no longer had their own councils running their own councils. But the fact that going back to the Little Children, a sacred report that was out in the open, it was like ripping a band off, band aid off a horrible festering saw which needed to be exposed. And it empowered a lot of Aboriginal women in those communities to take more of a lead in that space as well. And you know, my mum was one of those women. There was all this converse, there was all this pushback from activists saying this is all just about a land grab and all these sorts of thing things. And I was actually on the I was actually in remote communities, working, engaging with sorry in town camps, engaging with town camps when during the Gillard government, when they were delivering upgrades to those town camps, and what the aim was to try and bring those town camps to a standard with our suburbs around Alice Springs instead, which was about civil works, you know, basic things like that. So these are all the sorts of things that came along at the same time, and no one realizes that there were all these other elements that came to it. But as a family, we were like, thank god, someone is prepared to actually take seriously what's going on in remote communities when it comes to the fact that our kids are experiencing these horrible rates of sexual abuse and that our women are experiencing these horrible rates of DV. And an interesting thing is a year or so ago I had a conversation with mel Braff. He rang me to tell me that he said one of the significant pushes behind initiating that intervention was that he received a letter from a young Aboriginal woman living in a town camp who wrote to him to say, you know, each night I go to bed and I don't know if i'll wake up the next day, whether this is the night that I'll be murdered, and I've got a baby, and basically outlined the conditions that she'd been living in. And he described this young woman to me, and from her circumstances, I thought to myself, Wow, I feel like that's my cousin, you know. And I said to him do you remember her name? And he said, I'd have to go looking for it. I can't remember off the top of my head. But I said, look, I'm going to go and have a conversation my cousin. And I did. I rang my cousin. I said, hey, listen, you didn't happen to write a letter to mel Broff and she said, yeah, I did. I'm like, wow, okay, And her circumstances have changed significantly, and she is very sought after interpreter and she does other wonderful work in the indigenous space. And she got out of that situation and her daughter is achieving remarkable things in her life now. And her daughter is eighteen, and the kids that come along are as well. So she escaped that, but I just thought, you know, I was so surprised that that was what, you know, part of that led to that.
Yeah, looking back at it, can you explain because I know with the people in circles I mixed Indigenous communities, there's a lot of people that were outraged by what happened there. Do you understand where they're coming from? Can you see their perspective on where they felt that? Why are we being treated this way? There was rampant sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Why I didn't Why wasn't there any intervention there? Comments like that that come out? Do you understand where?
Well, I guess there has been an intervention, you know, and recognition from the Catholic Church and a response to that, and there's been a redress scheme for those victims. So I mean, that's sort of the thing that I'm calling for right when it comes to our kids. And look, a lot of the outrage was fueled by the activist class. There were a lot of miss truths being told about what was going on. You know, people in community, vulnerable individuals who without a proper education, can't disseminate what's real information and what isn't And so you know, there weren't there wasn't a a an army tank going through a community community.
The army suggesting the medium miss leads.
Oh my goodness, but that's the thing, right, People going, oh, they're going to take away our babies and they're going to do this, and they're whipped into a frenzy by those who should have known better as well, Like the army were there to help with health checks. They were supporting the community, much like what would happen if there was some kind of natural disaster when the army goes in, you know, just setting up tents and doing health checks and those sorts of things. And why would you want to not allow for that to occur or to go ahead? And it wasn't designed to try and say that all Aboriginal men are pedophiles. Again, it's prioritizing. It's going, oh, how are we going to be perceived as opposed to let's protect protect our vulnerable, let's protect our children. That's that's what I can't get around. Why there is such a such a need to you know, take offense and be defensive as opposed to go this is actually about our victims and our vulnerable, not about anything else.
Okay, focusing on preventing children becoming victims. Yeah, absolutely, point in time, so it's from two thousand and seven, let's say through the twenty twenty two. Do you think the current Northern territories in a better situation because of the intervention? Because there's issues going on there? Now? Do you think it was a good thing or a bad thing with the benefit of hindsight looking back at the history.
Look, I think it has I'm not saying it was perfect. It has its upsides and its downside to it. And the situation is that, yes, Aboriginal people feel disempowered in communities, but there are other factors involved in that as well, and they're the sorts of things that I hope to address. You know, if I've successfully become a Minister for Indigenous Australians. It comes around empowerment through participating a actively in the economy which allows for people to stand on their own two feet, and welfare dependency is a huge factor in why things aren't progressing out in communities. Wealth generation or inability to create wealth generation in communities is a huge factor. Again, just going back to this committee that I've just been sitting on and the Productivity Commission have outlined that land rights and land and sea rights hasn't equated to better outcomes as yet. But the environment, the Land Rights Act that we are governed under in the Northern Territory doesn't necessarily allow for traditional owners to utilize their land for the benefit of economic development. There's no home ownership opportunities, there's no private land ownership opportunities, and we know that that is what helps people to create wealth, to stand on their own two feet, to live comfortably, to ensure that their kids go to school, to create jobs.
And I want.
To work toward creating that environment where traditional owners become job creators, not just have a job, but become job creators so that they can participate in the economy like everybody else in this country has the opportunity to. And that's what we haven't got to yet. And when you've got mums and dads working, kids are more likely to go to school, kids are going to get an education. But our curriculum needs to be such that it is allowing for kids in communities to be able to leave school and actually have the appropriate level of education to either go on to further to go into employment or go on to further education.
It's a vicious cycle. If a family has been living in welfare and it doesn't need to be an Indigenous family. I've seen families where three generations of white fellows and they have and have the job. That doesn't create a good role model or an understanding of what life is about.
And can I just stay on that as well. And like in my previous research findings is that the further you move away from a city, the more marginalized Australians become, both Indigenous and non Indigenous because there is less of an access to services. There is less availability of jobs and those sorts of things to be able to provide that and that goes for everybody.
There's a region. Yeah, there's problems within the city, like living with living within the city as well, But I agree the services across the board, the more remote, the more difficult it is to match those services. We'll finish off on part one. It's hard to find a question. I can ask you that it's not controversial. I'm looking for them. But yeah, in the introduction I said that you've got strong opinions and you're prepared to pair the back I'll ask one question here, just a general question that I'm just curious. If you were to speak to someone from overseas and they asked how Indigenous people are treated in this country, what would you say, Well.
I'd say Indigenous people have incredible opportunity in this country. There are many people in this country who want what's best for Indigenous Australians. No country, there's no country on the face of the earth that doesn't have its handful of you know, those who have racist attitudes across the board. But yeah, otherwise, I believe that in general terms, most Australians want what's best for Indigenous Australians. And as I said, and governments have been bending over backwards to ensure that there is plenty of opportunity that is being provided for Indigenous Australians. That's what i'd say.
Okay, we'll leave, we'll leave it that, let's take a break and we'll be back in part two and I'm sure I'll have some more interesting questions for it. Thank you, Jeers M.
